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A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

February 3, 2023 by John Ray

A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

Does your professional services business need a podcast? In most cases, after you take this simple three question test, the answer will be “yes.”

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translates into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Five Sections in Your Employee Manual Which Should Be Overhauled

February 3, 2023 by John Ray

Five Sections in Your Employee Manual Which Should Be Overhauled

Five Sections in Your Employee Manual Which Should Be Overhauled (Advisory Insights Podcast, Episode 29)

On this episode of Advisory Insights, Stuart Oberman of Oberman Law Firm discussed the five sections of your employee manual that should be overhauled to comply with changing laws. He covered topics such as regulating employee appearance, work arrangements, and communication.

Advisory Insights is presented by Oberman Law Firm and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®. The series can be found on all the major podcast apps. You can find the complete show archive here.

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:01] Broadcasting from the studios of Business RadioX, it’s time for Advisory Insights. Brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, serving clients nationwide with tailored service and exceptional results. Now, here’s your host.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:20] Hello and welcome to Advisory Insights Podcast. Stuart Oberman here, your host. Well, I want to talk about H.R. I know that’s a topic I talk a lot about, but until I stop getting calls regarding H.R. compliance matters, I’m going to keep harping on this.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:37] Today’s topic, five sections that should be overhauled in your employee manual. First and foremost, do you have an employee manual to start with? So, for those that do not have an employee manual, I want you to write this down on each sections we’re going to look at.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:55] Get an employee manual. If you have an employee manual that is 15 pages, shred it and get another one. If you have an employee manual that is probably less than 40 pages, I’m going to recommend you really have someone take a look at that manual and make sure it’s good because the law is changing constantly.

Stuart Oberman: [00:01:12] Let’s take a look at our sections. First and foremost, I’m going to say that you need to regulate appearance. Now, what each employer does with appearance and what they allow is not for me to comment. But what’s happening is, is that you must have, got to have written policies regarding appearance to take into account.

Stuart Oberman: [00:01:37] And why do I say this? Because what’s happening is we’re seeing legislation all over the country regulating appearance. We have legislation – and I’ve said this before but I want to stress this again – regulating hair. What is professional hair? So, for those that don’t really follow H.R. items, I want to bring into account where a particular state brought in the Crown Act.

Stuart Oberman: [00:02:05] For example, what is the Crown Act? It essentially bans race-based hair discrimination in the workplace. So, the Crown Act or similar legislation has been enacted in 19 states. Folks, I’ll repeat that, has been enacted in 19 states. How many people listening to this podcast have any idea whether or not their state even is included in that kind of legislation or has a bill pending for that legislation at the Federal level, which sits at the Senate right now? So, again, number one appearance. Again, I can’t make up this legislation.

Stuart Oberman: [00:02:50] Work arrangements. I will tell you, folks, depending on your region, people aren’t going back to the offices. Now, we see that in different regions, different mobilities. We’re talking to a law firm the other day that had 200 people. None of them are back to the office. I don’t know what that rent is, but it’s got to be expensive. So, I want to make sure you know this, that your organization, I don’t care what you do, you have to have expectations around communication.

Stuart Oberman: [00:03:23] First off, do you even have a policy in place that regulates a hybrid? Do you have a policy in place that outlines what is strategically your employer’s information, when they’re coming in, when they’re speaking to members of the office, when they’re supposed to answer the phones, when they report deadlines? Again, I want you to make sure that you are regulating work arrangements. And, also, I want to make sure that you have a policy that goes into a place and regulates remote conduct and what should or should not be taking place.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:02] So, again, technology is at the forefront of all this. Things change. I know we constantly look at software improvements, where this technology is going. Everything today is outdated in six months, it seems like. So, I want to make sure, number three, technology. That you have policies in place in your handbook that regulate and mention remote work and hybrid.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:33] Are you using multifactor authentication? Are employees using their own devices? How do you regulate that? Is there a standard? What happens if that cell phone is lost? Other shutdown mechanisms? Are you allowing employees to purchase their own technology on your technology? What happens if you have a computer that is specifically for you and your employee, and, all of a sudden, you have an employee downloading stuff on your software, on your hard drive, or a laptop? Do you have stuff that regulates that? What does that look like?

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:08] So, you’ve got to decide what’s regulated, what’s work related, who pays for these expenses? What does it look like in the employee manual, if you even have an employee manual? I would encourage you to do these. Again, write down these items.

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:23] Number four, sick leave. So, what happened is, before the pandemic many states and localities lacked sick leave laws. But now what we’re seeing, we’re seeing an active, a very, very active legislative agenda for states that are manipulating and approving certain leave acts that go way beyond what the employers indicate for that state.

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:55] So, I want you to make sure you know what you’re sick leave is. How many employees do you have? Do you have reasonable accommodations? What happens if you don’t have reasonable accommodations? You know, again, I want to make sure that under the sick leave, you have the Family Medical Leave Act in place, all those things.

Stuart Oberman: [00:06:16] You know, I keep going back to this topic because it’s just a crazy topic. Number five, marijuana usage and testing. I can’t stress this enough. I know I talked a lot about this in 2022. We’re going to talk about this in 2023. A couple of states come to mind, New York and California.

Stuart Oberman: [00:06:43] So, first and foremost, I don’t want to rehash what we did on a previous podcast or what we’re going to do coming forward. But don’t forget Federal Law, still, marijuana is illegal. But many states protect workers. You’ve got to make sure you know what states protect you as an employer or your workers. Now, we’ve got to worry about other things that are coming into play regarding – I’ll use the term – magic mushrooms. We’re going back to the ’60s. Here we go, folks. Again, with the prevalence of states enacting laws regarding this, this has got to be at the forefront of issues.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:20] So, employers, you need to be out in the forefront of the trend. You’ve got to make a decision on what you’re doing. You can’t put your head in the sand on these issues because every one of these five issues are going to come up at some point in your workplace. It’s not a question of if. It is a question of when. And you’ve got to be prepared. It’s got to be in writing. And your employees have got to know what their outlines are. You’ve got to know what your outlines are. You’ve got to know what your deadlines are, and what you’re going to accept and not accept.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:53] Folks, the top five, you got to know it. You got to know it. Employee manual, top five sections you’ve got to overhaul. Again, I’m going to run through this real quick, real quick. Appearance, work arrangements-remote/hybrid, technology-remote/hybrid, sick leave, and last but not least – the favorite topic that I like talking about – marijuana usage and testing.

Stuart Oberman: [00:08:21] Folks, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for joining us on Advisory Insights Podcast. If you have any questions, please feel free to give us a call, 770-886-2400, or email, stuart, S-T-U-A-R-T, @obermanlaw.com. Folks, have a fantastic day and thanks for listening to Advisory Insights Podcast.

Outro: [00:08:45] Thank you for joining us on Advisory Insights. This show is brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, a business-centric law firm representing local, regional, and national clients in a wide range of practice areas, including healthcare, mergers and acquisitions, corporate transactions, and regulatory compliance.

About Advisory Insights Podcast

Presented by Oberman Law Firm, Advisory Insights Podcast covers legal, business, HR, and other topics of vital concern to healthcare practices and other business owners. This show series can be found here as well as on all the major podcast apps.

Stuart Oberman, Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm

Stuart Oberman is the founder and President of Oberman Law Firm. Mr. Oberman graduated from Urbana University and received his law degree from John Marshall Law School. Mr. Oberman has been practicing law for over 25 years, and before going into private practice, Mr. Oberman was in-house counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. Mr. Oberman is widely regarded as the go-to attorney in the area of Dental Law, which includes DSO formation, corporate business structures, mergers and acquisitions, regulatory compliance, advertising regulations, HIPAA, Compliance, and employment law regulations that affect dental practices.

In addition, Mr. Oberman’s expertise in the healthcare industry includes advising clients in the complex regulatory landscape as it relates to telehealth and telemedicine, including compliance of corporate structures, third-party reimbursement, contract negotiations, technology, health care fraud, and abuse law (Anti-Kickback Statute and the State Law), professional liability risk management, federal and state regulations.

As the long-term care industry evolves, Mr. Oberman has the knowledge and experience to guide clients in the long-term care sector with respect to corporate and regulatory matters, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities (CCRCs). In addition, Mr. Oberman’s practice also focuses on health care facility acquisitions and other changes of ownership, as well as related licensure and Medicare/Medicaid certification matters, CCRC registrations, long-term care/skilled nursing facility management, operating agreements, assisted living licensure matters, and health care joint ventures.

In addition to his expertise in the health care industry, Mr. Oberman has a nationwide practice that focuses on all facets of contractual disputes, including corporate governance, fiduciary duty, trade secrets, unfair competition, covenants not to compete, trademark and copyright infringement, fraud, and deceptive trade practices, and other business-related matters. Mr. Oberman also represents clients throughout the United States in a wide range of practice areas, including mergers & acquisitions, partnership agreements, commercial real estate, entity formation, employment law, commercial leasing, intellectual property, and HIPAA/OSHA compliance.

Mr. Oberman is a national lecturer and has published articles in the U.S. and Canada.

LinkedIn

Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm has a long history of civic service, noted national, regional, and local clients, and stands among the Southeast’s eminent and fast-growing full-service law firms. Oberman Law Firm’s areas of practice include Business Planning, Commercial & Technology Transactions, Corporate, Employment & Labor, Estate Planning, Health Care, Intellectual Property, Litigation, Privacy & Data Security, and Real Estate.

By meeting their client’s goals and becoming a trusted partner and advocate for our clients, their attorneys are recognized as legal go-getters who provide value-added service. Their attorneys understand that in a rapidly changing legal market, clients have new expectations, constantly evolving choices, and operate in an environment of heightened reputational and commercial risk.

Oberman Law Firm’s strength is its ability to solve complex legal problems by collaborating across borders and practice areas.

Connect with Oberman Law Firm:

Company website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Value Selling: An Interview with Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value Solutions

February 1, 2023 by John Ray

Mike Wilkinson

Value Selling: An Interview with Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value Solutions

The two terms solo and small professional services providers may dislike the most are “sales” and “business development.” If that describes you, then yes, you’ll want to understand the concept of value selling by listening to this episode.

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert and Founder of Axia Value Solutions, joined host John Ray to define value selling, why it isn’t more widely practiced, how value selling makes business development conversations easier and improves your ability to defend your pricing, why introverts may have an advantage in employing value selling, why not employing value selling might actually be unethical, and much more.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Axia Value Solutions

At Axia Value Solutions they focus on value!

If you:

  • Tend to discount too much or struggle to defend your prices
  • Have product first rather than customer first sales conversations
  • Lose business even when you know you have the best solution
  • …or many other issues

…then understanding value and what it means to your customers is going to be a big part of addressing these.

Value is defined by your customer, not by you.  If you want to sell your value effectively – and get paid for it – you have to understand your customers, in detail.  The Value Sales Process will help ensure you approach the sale in a structured way and transform your approach.

Understanding customer value aspirations will help you differentiate, price and communicate your offer more powerfully and effectively.

Company website | LinkedIn

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert, Founder, Axia Value Solutions

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert, Founder, Axia Value Solutions

Mike has been an independent consultant since 1988. His passion revolves around value, especially Value-based selling. Mike is the “Price Getter”, working with sales teams and helping them discover new ways of learning and communicating value, so that money isn’t left on the table, and you are rewarded for the value you deliver.

He has worked with organizations of all sizes, helping them maximize the effectiveness of their sales efforts, both in terms of sales process and skills.

Mike has delivered training all over the world, speaking regularly at conferences, seminars and meetings with business audiences throughout the UK, Europe, UAE, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, USA, Singapore and Australia.

He has also published three bestselling books on value and is member of the Institute of Sales and Marketing Management, the Professional Speakers Association (PSA) and the Global Speakers Federation.

LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] And hello again, everyone. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. And I’m delighted today to welcome Mike Wilkinson with us. Mike is with Axia Value, and he’s been an independent consultant since 1988. And his passion revolves around something I happen to love, value and, especially, value based selling.

John Ray: [00:00:24] Mike is the “Price Getter” – I love that term. He works with sales teams and helps them discover new ways of learning and communicating value so that money isn’t left on the table and that you are rewarded for the value you deliver. He works with organizations of all sizes and trains all over the world. I think the only continent he hasn’t been on to do sales training must be Antarctica based on that bio, but we’ll ask Mike about that. And he’s also published three bestselling books on value. Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value, thank you so much for joining us.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:04] John, it’s a pleasure. It’s good to be with you.

John Ray: [00:01:06] It’s great to have you on. Let’s get straight to it. What is value selling? How do you describe that?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:17] I think at its simplest, value selling really is an approach that aims to quantify the value of your solution to a customer in economic terms, and really highlighting the advantages of what you do when compared with competing alternatives. That’s the way I look at it. So, it’s simply about economically demonstrating your value to the customer for your solution.

John Ray: [00:01:45] So, what was the light bulb moment for you and your journey when you realized that this was really the way to go when it comes to sales and business development?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:58] Well, I think there are a whole host of things that go around value selling. And I think perhaps the most important is that value selling, it has to be a collaborative effort between you and your customer. It’s not something you do at the customer. It’s something you do with them. And that, I think, was particularly important.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:02:17] Because I was going on that sales journey and I was doing some training, and the lightbulb really went off in a conference in Copenhagen. And I was talking at this conference with a group of about 120 salespeople. And the night before, we were all having dinner, and they’re all from the same company. And every single person I spoke to when I asked them what it was they sold, they told me they sold value, “We sell fantastic value.” And I thought this lot have all been brainwashed. And I thought that that’s just amazing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:02:51] So, the next day, in the morning for my first session, I scrapped completely what I was going to do. This is a classic example of planning well, but scrap what it’s going to do. I said, “Guys, last night I was really surprised to hear everybody told me that value was what you were delivering. So, what I would like you to do for me is tell me what value is. So, what I want from you is an Oxford English Dictionary definition beginning with the words value is. So, value is what?”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:03:23] And there were about ten tables, and I charged each table with coming up with a definition of value written on a card that I could then read out to everybody, and we would determine which was the best or we’d amalgamate them all together.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:03:38] And the interesting thing was, I think to start with, given that they’d all tell me they sold value and that was what they did, was the difficulty they were having in articulating just what value was. It was extraordinary. It took probably between 20 minutes and a-half-an-hour to get all of the cards back. And I decided I just take the cards and I’d read them all out one after the other, and we’d see how it went. And that’s what I started to do.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:04:06] And the thing that struck me straight away was that they were all different. I mean, clearly there were similarities, but they were all different. And then, I got to a card, which is about fifth or six in this pack, and I turned it over and I looked at it, and I thought, “This is absolutely ridiculous. I can’t read this out.” But I thought, “Well, I’d better have a go.” And it had four words on it. This is 20 minutes to 30 minutes work, four words, and two of them were the ones I’d given them which is value is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:04:38] So, I read it out and I said, “We’ve got this definition, and it is value is a mystery.” Wow. But the more I thought about it, the more I began to realize that that is absolutely exactly what value is. And our job as salespeople is to solve the value mystery. Because the reality is everybody defines value in a different way. So, until we understand how the customer we are talking to defines value, to all intents and purposes, it is a mystery.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:05:20] So, our absolutely number one task is to solve that value mystery, and that is how I got into value. I thought, I’ve cracked it. That’s it. So, the job is done. Solve the value mystery. But I very quickly realized that the job was anything but done. And it was very much the start of a fairly complicated but enjoyable journey. So, there you go, that’s how I got involved.

John Ray: [00:05:49] I love that. Because a lot of the folks that listen to this series are real left brained. They got what they want, left brained data-driven answers. And that’s not always the case with value. It can be part of it, but not always the case. Right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:06:10] Well, I think for anybody who’s sort of data-driven, I say to the guys who come on the programs that I run, is, if you think about value selling as a problem solving exercise, the starting point is you have to understand the problem. You cannot wander around with a solution in search of a problem. What you need to do is to understand the problem and then tailor your solution to address it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:06:36] And for the vast majority of people that I speak to and the vast majority of salespeople particularly, that is an absolutely extraordinary transformation. Intellectually, they buy into a recognition that they need to understand what the problem is first. But practically, they do exactly the opposite. And they lead with product first conversations with customers.

John Ray: [00:07:01] Now, related to what you just said, I want to tie that to what you and I talked about before we came on, which is that – unless we’ve lost them all, all the listeners that I have that are solo and small professional services firms. I’m not even sure they hit download when they saw the term selling because a lot of them don’t like that word. And as I mentioned to you, business development comes in a close second to the word they don’t like – what you’re suggesting is forget selling, forget business development. If you just think of it as value problem solving, maybe that’s the way that you ought to think about this, Mr. or Ms. Professional Services Person.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:07:52] I mean, I think it depends how you define selling. And even dealing with the corporate clients that I deal with, I still find a lot of people do not like to be called salespeople. I don’t understand it, because whether you’re a small business person or you’re a corporate, you stand or fail by your ability to generate leads and convert them. And that, in my book, is selling. But call it whatever you want.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:08:19] I think if you look at it as helping your customers make good buying decisions, that’s what you’re trying to help them to do. And to do that, you have to understand them. You can’t help anybody to improve what they’re doing if you don’t understand what it is they are trying to do. So, I think it is an important thing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:08:38] And I think we also talked about this difference between that sort of slightly more introverted and that extroverted approach. And I actually think introverts have an advantage. I think particularly with value selling, they have an advantage, because introverts tend to listen. They tend to take things that a little bit more slowly. They tend to be, I think, a little bit more data-driven. They are better at problem solving. Whereas, us, extroverts, tend to go blundering in rather over excitedly and just want to get to the end. We’re just desperate to get to the end.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:09:14] The reality often is that it’s the old tortoise and the hare story, isn’t it? You know, the extroverts screaming off into the distance, whereas the tortoise is just gently coming along behind and gets to the finish line first. That’s likely anyone.

John Ray: [00:09:30] No, it makes perfect sense. And it’s not just patience, but I think in general – we’re making generalities here, folks. So, let’s acknowledge that – extroverts, a lot of them are people pleasers. So, maybe they don’t want to get to what some of the real problems are that they may think that person across the table from them really doesn’t want to talk about. Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:10:01] I think it does make sense. And I think as good value sellers, we have to be challenging as well. You have to make the customer think. If you actually dedicate yourself to helping your customer improve their business and making good business decisions for themselves, you have to challenge them and make sure that they’ve gone through that intellectual process themselves to get to a point where they recognize the problem, they recognize the scale of the problem, and the need to address it, and then you help them to actually come up with a solution that’s effective.

John Ray: [00:10:37] So, when I was referring to data-driven – I want to dive into that a little more for folks, and this gets back to value being a mystery – I think a lot of people understand that value has definable outcomes and that that can be captured with data. But value is also full of intangibles that can’t really necessarily immediately be captured as value – be captured in that, I mean.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:14] Yeah. Absolutely right.

John Ray: [00:11:15] Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:17] It makes perfect sense. It actually really picks up on the discovery that I made after I’d discovered that value is a mystery and our job was to solve the value mystery. That was my eureka moment. It didn’t take long to realize that actually you needed something else.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:34] And what you need is a framework to think about value, because it’s quite difficult to sort of put your finger on what the constituent elements of value are. So, we came up with this concept called the value triad. And the value triad identifies three key areas of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:57] And as I go through this, John, if your listeners want to think about how this applies in their business, it might well be quite helpful from their point of view, because I think there are some questions we have to ask ourselves.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:12] And let me just very quickly explain the value triad. The three elements of the value triad are revenue or performance gain, cost reduction, and emotional contributions. So, those are the three component elements of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:24] So, if we start with revenue gain or performance improvement, the question you need to ask yourself is how does what you do help your customers improve their revenue. And you should make a list of those things. You should clearly identify how you think what you do helps your customers improve their performance or improve their revenue. Because we need to know that in advance.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:53] Logically, the next bit, the cost reduction bit, the question is the same, how does what you do help your customer to reduce their costs. And to pick up on what you were saying, John, those two are objective. They’re measurable. You can put a number on them, and you should. Because it’s much more persuasive to say to somebody, “I can help you improve your revenue by $50,000 a year and reduce your cost,” by whatever it might be. Rather than just say, “Well, we can help you improve your revenue.” Because most customers want to know by how much and by when, because that’s a lot more persuasive. And anyway, anybody can make airy fairy promises.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:13:40] So, those are the two very tangible elements of value, revenue gain, and cost reduction. The bit that you you referred to is we had a real struggle coming up with a name for this, but we finally settled on emotional contribution. I’m still not entirely sure why, but it’s worked really well. And they are the intangible things, the subjective things. They are things like trust, credibility, the quality of the relationship, the removal of risk, your brand value, their desire to want to do business with you personally rather than somebody else.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:14:13] And I was thinking about this only the other day, and I’m thinking about what it is that people buy, the intangible element that people buy. I think, more than anything else is peace of mind. And I really think people buy peace of mind. They don’t want to buy hassle. They don’t want to buy risk, or difficulty, or things that are hard to use. They want peace of mind. When I make a decision to buy from you, I want it to be a great decision and I want to not have to worry about it now. Now, that the decision is made, I just want it to happen.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:14:50] So, that’s it. That was the value triad. Revenue gain, so how does what you do help you improve your customers revenue; cost reduction, how can you help them to reduce their costs; the emotional contribution, how can you just make them feel really good about doing business with you.

John Ray: [00:15:06] All that sounds great. I’m a solo, small professional services firm owner. I’ve never had sales training. I’m used to talking about what I do, but not necessarily digging into value. So, give me some tips on how I can start this journey.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:15:36] Right. It’s interesting. You and I also spoke well, I have to admit, guys, the vast majority of my client base are corporates. So, people say to me, “How can you actually relate to what solopreneurs have to do?” And I say, “Well, because I’m one of those more so. I am what my business. I have to do all of these things myself. I relate, absolutely.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:03] And I think the thing that you said right at the outset is the heart of the problem. We’re really good at talking about what we do. But actually what we’re not really good at very often is talking about what the customer wants done. And that’s the starting point, you have to understand the problem before you deliver the solution. And you have to build value in the need to have that solution delivered. And I think for many of us, that’s the difficulty.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:33] I think the tips that I give to people really are, don’t get hung up on it. When you meet a customer for the first time, all you should be thinking about is, I’m going to have a chat. Even if it’s not physically happening, but metaphorically, I’m going to sit down with a cup of coffee over the table from somebody and we’re going to have a chat.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:53] And what you are going to do as the SME, the small business, is you are going to show genuine interest and curiosity in understanding your potential customer’s business. And you are not going to talk about you. The focus is entirely on the customer and their business. Because it won’t have happened to them very often, because most people will go in and just talk about their products. So, it would be refreshing for them to have somebody to talk to where they can actually share that sort of information.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:17:30] And as you take them on that conversation or journey, if you like, clearly, there’s a structured process that you can utilize to do that because we know where we’re trying to get them to. We’re trying to get them to a point where they recognize that they have a problem or an issue that is big enough to need to be addressed.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:17:53] Because I think one of the problems with lots of businesses is I don’t know any business that doesn’t have lots and lots of problems. I mean, every business has problems and issues. But the vast majority of them are simply not important enough to do anything about. You just learn to live with them. You find ways of working around them. Well, you want to make sure that the problems that you can solve are the ones that your customer considers to be important enough to actually take action on. So, part of our conversation when we’re taking on that journey is to get them to a point where they recognize that.

John Ray: [00:18:33] And that may not be immediate. I mean, we’ve got to be comfortable in the idea that if we’re really genuinely trying to problem solve and help that customer, do what’s right for that client sitting in front of us that we’ve had this chat with, that may involve saying I’m not the answer for your problem today.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:18:57] I think that’s absolutely right, the last thing. It’s tough, isn’t it, that we’re in a time where, frankly, any business looks reasonably attractive for a lot of people. And it’s quite hard turning stuff down. But I think the starting point for all of this is to recognize that not every opportunity is a good opportunity for you. Some opportunities can cause more trouble than they’re worth. So, I think it’s quite key.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:19:27] And, again, you don’t want to sell – I use the word sell advisedly in this context, John – you don’t want to be selling things to people where you know in your heart of hearts it’s not the right solution for them.

John Ray: [00:19:44] Or you’ve had to talk yourself into it that it’s the right solution and you’re reading from right to left when it comes to the revenue to your firm.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:19:56] Yeah. I think that’s right. I mean, I’ve got so many sort of stories of people turning down business opportunities. But then, over time, the right opportunity comes along. And this is about building business over the long term, I think, for most of us. We’re not in the business of one off sales. We’re in the business of selling today and, hopefully, building on that relationship and selling more in the future. You don’t do that by selling them things that don’t really address the issues that they’re facing.

John Ray: [00:20:30] There’s a difference, I think, Mike – and correct me if you think I’m wrong, because I’m often wrong, so correct me – it seems to me between that prospective client who maybe didn’t get referred to us with something in mind that they want versus that referral or however it came, however that client got to the point they’re sitting in front of us, where they’ve got something in mind of what they want. And what they want may not be what they need. But we’re so anxious as services providers to get to the sale, if I can still use that word, to get to the engagement agreement that maybe we short circuit the value conversation. Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:21:35] It makes perfect sense. And it’s a big mistake. Well, for two reasons. First of all, if you short circuit the value conversation, you’ve failed to take advantage of the opportunity to build value into your solution. And secondly, you are absolutely right, just because somebody comes to you and says “I need a,” it doesn’t mean that is actually what they need. They need it given their perception of the problem. But they are probably not experts in the particular area that your people or your audience is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:22:11] So, whenever somebody comes to me and says I need sales training, for example, the first thing I want to know is, why do you think that? What is the problem that you think sales training is going to solve for you? So, I think it’s always very valuable to take a step back and just make sure that not only they understand what their motivation is behind thinking that this is the solution, but that we understand it as well.

John Ray: [00:22:41] And when we short circuit that conversation, it seems to me what gets short changed is the emotional side, right? Because that’s really what takes the longest part of the conversation to really dive in and get to.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:22:59] I think you’re right. And I think the interesting thing about value selling, and another reason why I find it a really useful way to go, is that, if you do not have, if you failed to build a relationship with the customer, they will not give you the information that you need to help to come up with the best solution for them and deliver the best value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:23:22] Value selling is based upon a collaborative relationship. I think it is anyway. If they won’t collaborate with you, if they won’t share with you the challenges and the issues that they got, then it’s going to be very hard to really deliver the best possible value that we could.

John Ray: [00:23:41] So, how do you keep yourself from short circuiting, I guess, number one? And number two is, how do you keep a prospective client patient when you’re trying to get into the emotional responses they’re going to have to the solution you’re potentially going to give them? Because they call up wanting that thing, whatever that thing is, and they kind of want to get you to that, because they’re in a hurry and they want to get there. So, mentally, how do you keep yourself on task, I guess, is the question.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:24:24] It’s funny, actually, you should say that, because frequently salespeople will say to me, What’s the one piece of advice that you give me to really improve? And I say, over the years, I’ve come up with all sorts of things. But I’m now at a stage where the one piece of advice I give to sellers is slow down. Slow down. It is not a race. Your job is to come up with the best possible solution for your customer. Do not race to the end with your solution. Take the time to understand what it is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:06] I mean, if you don’t slow down, you’re not listening. If you’re not listening, you’re not really understanding what is going on. One of the key skills is the ability to summarize back to your customer your understanding of their situation. So, you’ve had this conversation, so you can say to the customer at the end of it, or you should say, “If I understand you correctly, John, the main issues you’re facing at the moment are this and this. And the impact of failing to address them at the moment is this on the business. Have I got that right?” “Yeah.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:41] So, we’ve agreed that if we could really solve that problem, there’d be some real value to you. So, are you committed now to doing something about it? Because the one thing I want more than anything else is commitment. Because what I don’t want is to be wasting my time.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:59] The other thing is send me a proposal. For people to say, “Well, send me a proposal.” Well, what for? No. No. Because very often, the send me a proposal is to get rid of you or to just get a benchmark price in place. You know, it’s too easy to be taken down rabbit holes by customers. So, I want to get a customer to a point where they’re committed to doing something. Because otherwise, I’m just wasting my time, money, and effort in pursuing lost causes. None of us can afford that time.

John Ray: [00:26:36] That’s for sure. We don’t have time for that. Mike Wilkinson is with us folks. His firm is Axia Value. And he’s an expert on value based selling. And we have to say that pricing is part of this. I mean, if you’re selling by value – or I’ll give a nod to my folks that don’t like to sell – if you’re talking about value, it’s easier to price, right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:27:08] Yeah. It’s easier to price. It’s easier to defend your prices. I’m sure some of the people who are listening probably operate off a price list. And the problem that they have is that they are under constant downward pricing pressure so that they will go in and they’ll do the job, they’ll come up with the solution. The customer say, “Well, how much is that?” They’ll tell them. They say, “Flipping neck. I’m sure you can do something about that. You must be able to shave a few dollars off that.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:27:38] And the problem is that most of us operate under what I call a discount default. And that is, the minute we get put under any price pressure, the first thing we do is to drop our prices. And our customers know that. They know. I talk to procurement and buyers all the time, and I’ve never come across one who will not say to a supplier, You’re too expensive. And the answer is not because you’re too expensive. It’s because – sorry about that, John. It’s not because you’re too expensive. It’s because they just know from experience that virtually every time they say that, they get a discount. So, they’re not going to not tell you you’re too expensive.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:28:25] But it takes a lot of confidence when somebody says to you, “How much is that?” And you say to them, “It’s $10.” And they say, “That’s too expensive,” for you to look them in the eye and say, “No, it isn’t.” If you actually look at the value that we deliver, as we’ve just discussed, what it is you are going to gain as a result of our solution, I go as far as to say that probably $10 is not quite expensive enough.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:28:51] Now, bizarrely – and I have tested this out with lots and lots of people. And there’s one guy in particular after we’d been doing this for some time, he said to me, “You know, I have learnt something quite extraordinary.” He said that you really do need to have real confidence in doing this. But for the first time, when customers have said to me I’m too expensive, I’ve looked them in the eye and said, No, I’m not. When you think about the value that we’ve just discussed that we are going to deliver for you, we are most positively not too expensive at $10. And he said, in probably 80 to 90 percent of cases, they’ve nodded and said, “Yeah. Okay.” Because they were trying it on.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:29:34] And I said to him, I said, “Well, have you ever lost any business by that?” He said, “Yes, I have. To be honest, I have lost some business. He said, “But I can almost guarantee that the business I have lost has been the lower quality business, the people who were always going to be a pain to deal with. And in 90 percent of those cases, within six months, they’ve come back to me.”

John Ray: [00:29:56] The ones that really wanted to come back, have come back.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:30:01] Guys, we underestimate our value. If you’ve done a really good job of understanding what it is that is valuable for your customers and you’ve demonstrated how you can deliver that value, then you should be rewarded for that value. But I speak to SMEs too often who say, “Well, we can’t put our prices up.” And I say, “Well, hang on a minute. Let’s just take a step back. Is your solution a good solution?” “Yes, it is.” “Is it every bit as good as or if not better than your competitors?” “Yes, it is.” “And is your price therefore higher than your competitors?” “No, it isn’t.” “Why isn’t it? If your solution is better than your competitor’s solution, why isn’t your price higher?” “Well, because if we charge more, we’d lose the business.” “How do you know?”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:30:51] It comes down to confidence. And I think we communicate confidence in a variety of ways. But your body language alone will tell the customer whether they’re in for a discount or not. Because for most of us, the one thing we don’t want to have to talk about is price. And the minute that price comes up as a subject of discussion, our body language changes. That confidence of talking about our product disappears now, because we’re now asked to talk about something that, frankly, is just a little distasteful. But it all starts to go wrong. I’ve sat in meetings with people and the customer has said, “What’s the price?” And the sales guy has actually started by apologizing.

John Ray: [00:31:33] Oh, dear.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:31:34] You have got to be proud of your prices. If you truly believe that your solution is a great solution, delivers loads of value for your customer, why on earth shouldn’t you be proud of the price that you charge? Because you should be rewarded for the things that you’re doing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:31:58] I mean, my sort of strapline about the value challenge, the value challenge for me is about understanding, communicating, and delivering outstanding customer value and getting paid for it. And it’s the I’m getting paid for it bit at the end that is so important. And I just find that when I talk to SMEs, particularly small businesses, they underestimate the value that they deliver. And you will always underestimate the value that you deliver if you fail to understand the value that your customer is looking for.

John Ray: [00:32:35] Well, let’s talk specifically to this group here of professional services providers. They’re essentially pricing bullets between their ears. I mean, that’s their factory floor. They’re not pricing the product. And in their case, they’re working for themselves in their own business, they can’t point upward to the corporate suite and say, “Well, it’s those fools that set this price. I didn’t have anything to do with it.” They’re pricing themselves, essentially. And so, how do you have that confidence when that conversation turns toward pricing, how do you steal yourself for that point and how do you develop that over time?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:33:23] I think it goes back to what we’ve been saying before, John, if you go in with a product first approach, where you go in and you start to talk to your customer about your wonderful products and services, you’ve failed to build the value that you’re going to use in defending your prices.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:33:41] If you go in and you talk to your customer about the challenges, the issues, the opportunities that they’re facing, what the value of those is to them, and the conversation is absolutely customer first, then you build a foundation upon which you can put your price. But if you fail to do that, it’s a lot more difficult.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:34:04] So, for me, value pricing is dependent, as you said, on value selling. It’s the value bit at the front that’s really important. And you said earlier that I build myself as the price getter. And it’s when I had my partner before he retired, our business had two parts to it. It had the pricing bit and the selling bit. And we always said that the pricing bit is the price setting bit. And my bit was the price getting bit, because you set your prices, but you’ve got to get them. And that was pretty much it.

John Ray: [00:34:41] Yeah. No. And it’s all well and good to say “I want to get what I’m worth,” but you really cannot do that without some touchstone on how that gets measured that the client will understand. That’s the key point, right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:35:00] Yes. Absolutely right. And we all know that we don’t operate in a vacuum. You do need to understand what the sort of general market place position is in terms of pricing for what you do. But that does not mean that you have to be at it. You know, if the market price is $10 and you’re delivering more value than the majority of the $10 suppliers, then you should be charging 11 or 12. And you can defend it by demonstrating you are delivering more value to the customer than the cheaper people are doing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:35:38] We’re too easily dragged into price battles where we don’t need to be. And I don’t, in any way, want to undermine the difficulty or it isn’t an easy option. But to give away your hard earned time and cash simply because we fail to understand and communicate our value effectively is a shame.

John Ray: [00:36:04] I want to switch to a different objection that I hear, and it relates to pricing and professional services providers. And I hear the objection to value pricing. And by definition, extension value selling. That, I don’t want to charge different prices to my clients because I’m taking advantage of them when I do that.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:36:40] I mean, I have heard this a lot. But, actually, I don’t believe that to be the case. The whole concept behind value selling for me is to understand the value that the customer is looking for, deliver as much of that as I possibly can, and get rewarded appropriately for the value that I am delivering.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:02] And every customer is different. The reason value is a mystery is that what value means to each customer, and indeed to the people within the customer is different for all of them. And so, if you’re dealing with the finance director or the finance VP, his perception will be different to the ops people, to the sales folks, to the marketing folks. They all have a different perspective of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:28] So, as long as you are understanding and delivering outstanding value to them, you should be rewarded appropriately. Sometimes people say, “Well, yeah, we’d much rather operate off a straight price list because that way it’s fair to everybody.” It is fair to everybody. Everybody except you. And that is the point, you want to do a great job for your customers.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:54] A larger client in the telecoms business, we went and we were doing some work for them. And they were concerned about value. And when they explained to us what they did and the value that they delivered to their customers, which was absolutely huge, they were simply not getting rewarded for it at all.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:38:20] And it’s a mindset thing. I can understand why people think it is fairer to charge everybody exactly the same thing. First of all, everybody isn’t exactly the same. Their value aspirations are all different. And it’s fair to everybody except you. You’re the one person who is not being rewarded for the value that you’re delivering.

John Ray: [00:38:42] I want to ask you a third rail question. This is one that may get some folks fired up. Is it unethical – I use that word deliberately – not to sell based on value?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:39:00] It’s a very interesting thought. I think because the nature of value selling is that it is collaborative, I think it is a much more effective way of approaching the whole sales conversation. Now, realistically, depending upon the nature of your business and the nature of your clients, you won’t necessarily be able to sell on value to all of them.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:39:25] I mean, you may have some clients who are totally transactional. They don’t want a conversation. They want a bolt, a widget, or whatever it is. They just want to pick the phone up, place the order, done, finished with. They don’t want a conversation about it. But there are other customers who really would value a detailed conversation with you because you are the expert in your field, and I want your help and advice to make sure that the decisions that I make are good ones. And I think in that context, the value selling, it’s unethical not to do it. Because potentially you are going to allow your customer to make business decisions which are not as good as they could have been had you made them collaboratively.

John Ray: [00:40:09] I love that point. I want to throw in just a quick question here as our time goes down, because you deal with corporate clients – you know, our solo and small professional services folks don’t always get this situation, but sometimes they do – requests for proposals. How do you advise folks to deal with an RFP?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:40:45] All right. Yes. It’s a really interesting question. And first of all, I think if I’m a small business, is the RFP coming from a customer that is, if you like, in my target area. Is it somebody that I’ve spoken to already? If I’ve not ever had a conversation with them and an RFP arrives out of the blue, generally speaking, your best approach is to not ignore it, but to write back.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:41:15] I would always write back and I say, “Look, thank you very much indeed for the opportunity for this. But right now, I just don’t feel I understand enough about you and your business to be able to respond effectively. If you want to have a conversation with me, I’m happy to do that.” But other than that, I respectfully decline the opportunity to respond. Because otherwise, you’re just going to waste your time. You’ll be used for benchmarking. They’ll look at your price, compare it with the incumbent, smack them over the head a bit until they drop their price, and you’ve got nothing out of it at all. So, that’s my first bit of advice.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:41:51] If it’s one of those requests for proposals, which is templated, if you like, and you have to do each of the steps one by one. Again, if you know nothing more about the customer, I’d be very cautious. Somebody once said to me that an RFP is a brilliant opportunity for your customer to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the potential solutions that you can provide them with are a lot better than what they’re asking for.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:42:20] Often, RFP is a sort of built by committee and they reflect that. The other thing is, often, you’ll see in an RFP, you look at it and you can see your competitors fingerprints all over it. It’s quite obviously written for the benefit of somebody else, and you’re just being used as the benchmark.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:42:44] I had a time some time ago and he had huge numbers. It was a logistics business. Their business was driven by RFPs. And I said to him, “How many of the RFPs that you get do you respond to?” And he looked at me as if I’d gone mad. And he said, “Well, all of them, obviously.” And I said, “Goodness. That must take an incredible amount of time.” He said, “It does. It does.” And I said, “Well, how many of these are you winning? What percentage do you win?” He said, “Well, I don’t know, around 15 percent.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:43:14] So, I said, “So, 85 percent of the proposals you do, which are taking you an awful lot of time to put together, you’re not winning.” “That’s right,” he said. I said, “Well, if we call that 85 percent your new 100 percent, what percentage of those did you know you had no chance of winning before you even began?” And without even batting an eyelid, he said, “Oh, at least half of them.” I said, “So, why on earth are you responding to them?” And the answer is a classic, he said, “Because if we don’t respond to them, we definitely won’t win them.”

John Ray: [00:43:50] That’s some circular reasoning there.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:43:52] It’s mental reasoning. And it’s mental because what it means is that for those pieces of business that you do want to win, you don’t have the resources available to invest in it because you’re spending so much time responding to opportunities you’re never going to win. Crazy.

John Ray: [00:44:12] Yeah. I’m going to have to take a cold drink of water after listening to that story. Wow. Speaking of stories, though, before we let you go, Mike – and thank you for your time today. This has been terrific – I’d like to give you a chance to talk about you and the value that you bring. If you could share maybe a success story or two that illustrates the great value that you provide, talk about yourself for just a second.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:44:43] You know, I think of all the things that you’ve asked me to talk about, I always find that’s the most difficult of all. I think, because over the years I’ve become so obsessed with talking customer first rather than product first, that I think I’ve trained myself to do what I try to encourage other people to do more than anything else. I think the biggest successes I have is when I’ve worked with people.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:45:09] And I think I mentioned to you before, intellectually, people buy into the fact that they should be talking customer first rather than product first. But as you take them on that journey and they start to practice it and they start to see what happens when they do, one of the biggest things that started I’ve had people ring me up and say, “I am amazed at the opportunities that have suddenly become available.” And I said, “Yeah. But they were always there. It was just that you’d never had the conversation with the customer to discover them.” And that is just fantastic.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:45:41] The telecoms business was a classic. I hate to imagine how much more money they are making as a result of just a couple of very simple conversations that we had. I should definitely have been paid on the basis of value delivered there, shouldn’t I? I didn’t value price that particularly.

John Ray: [00:46:04] Well, you know what? Actually, thank you for that. That’s actually a great point because we’re all on a journey, right? I mean, there’s no formula here that we’re trying mysteriously trying to find in some urn in a cave in Peru. I mean, this is a constant, you can call it battle, you can call it journey, you can call it whatever, to try to get to what value is and how to price relative to that value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:46:32] I think it’s a journey, John. And I think there is a process. I mean, I have a value sales process that I teach and the training that I do. And it’s born out of a desire to simplify the complex, not complicate the simple so that the steps are really easy.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:46:49] So, the first step of the process is to quantify the opportunities, qualify the opportunities. So, the question is, where do you get your leads from because your business stands or falls through your ability to generate quality leads and convert them into business. You know, without that, nothing is going to happen. And it doesn’t matter how much we dislike talking about selling, at some point or another, somebody’s going to bring the business in. Maybe the dirty end of it, but that’s got to be done.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:47:21] So, qualify your opportunities. Because you only want to be working with opportunities that answer two questions for me. Number one, do we want it? In other words, is it attractive to us? Can we make money out of it? Are they going to be good folk to work with? That’s question one. And number two is, realistically, can we win it? So, that’s all you want to know? Do we want this business and can we win it? If the answer to that is yes, now we start to invest some time and effort in winning it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:47:51] And the first bit is value discovery. It is having that conversation with the customer to solve the value mystery. What are the challenges that they’re facing? What’s the impact of those on their business? What will be the value to them of addressing those problems? And are they now permitted, as you’ve taken them on that conversational journey, to doing something about it?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:14] And the point, again, I would make is that, that part of the conversation is not about you. It’s about them. Once they said, “Yeah. I can really see that there’s something we should be doing about that,” then you move into value demonstration. And this is the point at which you begin to explain to them how you can address the issues that you’ve identified. But this is a conversation. It is not a presentation.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:39] You want to take them on a journey where you point out how you’re going to address the issues they’ve identified and you say to them, “Can you see how how this works? Can you see how that happens? How do you feel if you had this in your business right now?” Value demonstration.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:54] Then, once they’ve committed to it, the value demonstration, they said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” You’ve done that negotiation where you’ve been proud of your price and they’ve come on board. Now, you’re into value delivery. And value delivery really, especially for new business, is the point at which the relationship really begins because they’ve never had any experience of dealing with you up to now. Now, they’re going to learn about what it’s really like to do business with you. So, value delivery is important.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:22] And then, for me now, the next step, the final step, is value development, where you develop the relationship, you make the relationship deeper, you cross sell, you upsell, you build for the future. So, that’s it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:35] So, qualify the opportunity, value discovery, value demonstration, value delivery, and value development. Five steps. Simple relatively.

John Ray: [00:49:46] Yeah. And, again, to bring back the journey theme, it’s practice, right? I mean, you keep after it and it yields results.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:59] I can absolutely guarantee, John, that the guys who come on the programs, we do practice this, we do role plays, we do all the things you’d expect us to do. And they then go away and I say to them, you know, meet up again in a week or so’s time. And they say, Yeah, we went straight back into doing what we’d always done. And now that we know better, we are really working on changing. It is a transformation for many of them, just moving away from talking about yourself and your products first.

John Ray: [00:50:33] Yeah. Wow. Mike Wilkinson, folks, Axia Value. Mike, I could go on, but I want to be respectful of your time, and you got some folks you need to go help sell better on value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:50:47] In fairness, everybody, John knows exactly why I’ve got to go.

John Ray: [00:50:55] Speaking of value, there’s a lot of value coming after this show here. But we’ll just leave that between you to be back. But before I let you go, I want to have you give directions on how our listeners can find out more about you and the great work that you do.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:51:14] I think probably the easiest way is obviously my website, which is www.axia, A-X-I-A, axiavalue.com. I’ve got a whole host of stuff on YouTube, lots of videos on YouTube. If anybody wants to take a look at those, that will take you through the whole of the process. Anybody wants to link in with me on LinkedIn, again, a lot on my LinkedIn profile. I post every day something on value. So, yeah, there are loads of ways. And if anybody wants to go completely mad and drop me a line, you can get me at mw, Mike Wilkinson, mw@axiavalue.com.

John Ray: [00:51:54] Yeah. I’m endorsing the LinkedIn. That’s where I found you, Mike. And you always post great content, so thank you for that.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:03] Well, we connected there, didn’t we, John?

John Ray: [00:52:05] That’s exactly right.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:07] That just shows you there is some value in it.

John Ray: [00:52:11] There’s value in LinkedIn. Some days, I wonder. But in this case, there was. And I’m grateful to you, Mike, for coming on and thank you for the great work you do. Keep it up.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:23] Well, thank you for the opportunity, John. I’ve enjoyed it.

John Ray: [00:52:26] Yeah. it’s been fun. Thank you. And folks, again, I’m John Ray, and I’m on the Price and Value Journey just like you are. And if you’d like to check out our complete archive of episodes in this series, go to pricevaluejourney.com and you can find a show archive there. You can also find the show on your favorite podcast app, so just search for Price Value Journey and you’ll find the series there. And I’d be honored if you’d subscribe and share the show if you heard something here.

John Ray: [00:52:56] And I can’t imagine you haven’t gotten a lot of value out of hearing what Mike had to say. If you’ve heard something here that you think would make sense for a colleague, please send it on, share the show. I’d appreciate that. And, also, you’ll find at that link, pricevaluejourney.com, a place to sign up to get updates on the book I have coming out called The Price and Value Journey: How to Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using the Generosity Mindset. So, if that’s something you’re interested in, you can sign up there.

John Ray: [00:53:32] Once again, thank you to Mike Wilkinson from Axia Value. And I’m John Ray. Join us next time on The Price and Value Journey.

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | InstagramValue Selling with guest Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value

How Divorce Impacts a Business Sale, with Melissa Gragg, Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC

January 31, 2023 by John Ray

Melissa Gragg

How Divorce Impacts a Business Sale, with Melissa Gragg, Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC (How To Sell a Business Podcast, Episode 9)

Certified Valuation Analyst Melissa Gragg, managing partner of Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC and host Ed Mysogland explore the complex issues that arise for the business when a business owner divorces. They address topics of navigating the emotions of the parties, disputes over the value, tips to prevent a deal from falling apart, the problem with buy/sell agreements, and much more.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton Studio of Business RadioX® in Atlanta.

Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC

Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC conducts business valuations for estate tax purposes, divorce litigation, partner disputes and mergers and acquisitions. Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC works to provide attorneys with a complete understanding of the financial issues in litigation cases involving breach of conduct, patent infringement, acts of fraud, asset misappropriation, breach of fiduciary responsibility and partnership disputes.

They have experience providing financial calculations for family law and personal injury cases as well as testimony in deposition and trial. Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC also serves as a subcontractor providing business valuations, lost profits calculations, lost wages calculations and forensic services to consultants including: accounting firms, investment banking firms, business valuation firms and sole practitioners involved in consulting.

Company website | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube

Melissa Gragg, CVA, MAFF, CDFA, Managing Partner, Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC

Melissa Gragg, CVA, MAFF, CDFA, Managing Partner, Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC

Melissa provides litigation support services and expert witness testimony for marital dissolution, owner disputes, commercial litigation, business interruption claims, personal damage calculations, lost profits and personal injury. She also conducts business valuations for purposes of estate planning as well as mergers and acquisitions.

  • Certified Valuation Analyst (CVA)

  • Certified Fraud Examiner (CFE)

  • Master Analyst in Financial Forensics – Matrimonial Litigation (MAFF)

  • Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA)

·    Possesses over 16 years of experience in providing valuation and consulting for companies ranging in size from large, publicly-traded firms to small, privately-held operations and family limited partnerships (FLPs)

·     Expertise performing valuations in numerous industries, including automotive/car dealerships, construction, electrical contracting, fast-food retail franchises, financial services, food and produce distributors, gas stations, hospitality services, healthcare (pharmacies, rural health clinics, nursing homes, doctors, dentists, orthodontists, chiropractors), insurance companies, industrial, landscaping, law firms, marketing research, nuclear power plant, payroll services, plastics (injection molding, thermoforming, packaging), printing and imaging, specialty retail, restaurants, technology, trucking and website developers.

LinkedIn

Ed Mysogland, Host of How To Sell a Business Podcast

Ed Mysogland, Host of “How To Sell a Business”

The How To Sell a Business Podcast combines 30 years of exit planning, valuation, and exit execution working with business owners. Ed Mysogland has a mission and vision to help business owners understand the value of their business and what makes it salable. Most of the small business owner’s net worth is locked in the company; to unlock it, a business owner has to sell it. Unfortunately, the odds are against business owners that they won’t be able to sell their companies because they don’t know what creates a saleable asset.

Ed interviews battle-tested experts who help business owners prepare, build, preserve, and one-day transfer value with the sale of the business for maximum value.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced virtually from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® in Alpharetta.  The show can be found on all the major podcast apps and a full archive can be found here.

Ed is the Managing Partner of Indiana Business Advisors. He guides the development of the organization, its knowledge strategy, and the IBA initiative, which is to continue to be Indiana’s premier business brokerage by bringing investment-banker-caliber of transactional advisory services to small and mid-sized businesses. Over the last 29 years, Ed has been appraising and providing pre-sale consulting services for small and medium-size privately-held businesses as part of the brokerage process. He has worked with entrepreneurs of every pedigree and offers a unique insight into consulting with them toward a successful outcome.

Connect with Ed: LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook

TRANSCRIPT

Introduction: [00:00:00] Business owners likely will have only one shot to sell a business. Most don’t understand what drives value and how buyers look at a business. Until now. Welcome to the How to Sell a Business podcast where every week we talk to the subject matter experts, advisors and those around the deal table about how to sell at maximum value. Every business will go to sell one day. It’s only a matter of when. We’re glad you’re here. The podcast starts now.

Ed Mysogland: [00:00:35] In this podcast, I had the opportunity to visit with Melissa Gragg. And for those of you who have either been divorced, know somebody that got divorced that owns a business or is thinking about getting a divorce, this episode’s for you.

Melissa is just dynamite. She has been in this world of disputes and complex valuation matters for years. I’ve followed her career. She writes an awful lot about the topic. And just a few things about her. You know, she’s a certified valuation analyst. She’s a certified fraud examiner. She’s a master analyst in forensic, financial forensics specializing in matrimonial litigation. And finally, she’s a certified divorce financial analyst. And in our time together, there was no shortage of tips about these complex matters where there’s emotions involved and what is fair may not necessarily be equal. So, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Melissa Gragg.

I’m your host, Ed Mysogland. On this podcast, I interview buyers, sellers, dealmakers, and other professional advisors about what creates value in a business and how that business can effectively be sold at a premium value. On today’s show, I am so stoked. I have Melissa Gragg of Bridge Valuation Partners and The Valuation podcast. I came to know her years ago. She’s going to give me grief about it, but she was a prolific author. And I read about her in the Trade Magazines, and she was always that person for divorce and complex issues. And I just enjoy reading about her. And at some point, I was going to get her on the podcast, and I finally have done it. And this is round two because I screwed up the technology the first time. So, Melissa, welcome to round two.

Melissa Gragg: [00:02:51] Thank you. So good to be here, again.

Ed Mysogland: [00:02:54] Right. So, before we get started, I kind of gave an overview about just your background, but you know, can you talk a little bit about how Bridge Valuation Partners came to be, as well as your own podcast?

Melissa Gragg: [00:03:13] Yeah, sure. I mean, Bridge Valuation Partners, I kind of had to come up with a name at some point because we all start with a company working for others and then we create our own company. And I was like, well, what do I really do? I kind of am the bridge between two people that are disagreeing, whether they’re a couple or a business owner, and things like that. And so, most of my practice has been around litigated matters or when people are fighting. And I started to realize that if I could work for both of them, it was a little bit easier because being impartial in the middle is easier when you work for both sides. So, I kind of have been doing a lot of joint work or working as a joint expert and then doing mediation, which is kind of like doing the same thing just outside of court.

Ed Mysogland: [00:04:07] Well, let’s start with divorce. In my world, that is the kiss of death. I mean, it is if someone shows up and says, I want to sell my business because I’m getting divorced, I know that it is guaranteed to be a mess. And chances are it’s never going to sell because somebody is not going to be happy. So, I guess that’s kind of where I wanted to start, was if that’s the decision, whether it’s one party or the other, let’s go ahead and sell, I mean how do you manage that process when both parties, you know, it’s an emotionally charged event? And how can you help somebody through that process? Because I can tell you, we’ve been — I don’t want to say we do a pretty good job of it, but it still breaks down and for no apparent reason other than I’m pissed at the other party. You know what I mean?

Melissa Gragg: [00:05:14] Right. Right. Well, I mean, I think you have a lot of factors. One is traditionally in every state is different, but traditionally, in a divorce setting, if one party wants to keep the business and maybe the other party doesn’t, then we’re going to value it. Right. And one party is going to keep it and the other is going to get equivalent assets. So, then you have a situation where maybe they can’t agree to the price and now you have well, you buy it. No, you buy it. Maybe it’s a passive interest, right? Maybe we’re just a 10 percent owner in something and we don’t want to split it, or it can’t be split.

So, then you have a situation where is the judge forcing the sale? And the judge could say, well, if you guys can’t agree to it, then we’re going to have kind of a liquidation, if you will. And now, we switch over into the M&A world. Well, in the M&A world, what do we want to do? We want to prep for the sale. We want to get our client in the best light possible. And you are literally starting with, we’re getting divorced, we’re selling the company. And so, you’re in a fire sale. A perception to the buyer, I think is part of the bigger issue. And then you have the distracted owner.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:32] You know, one of the most — we took it on the chin on this divorce because but at the same time, I was kind of impressed that they did it this way. So, the parties couldn’t agree to value so they put it on the market. And I’ll bet you, it was a great business and we had ten plus offers in a real short period of time. And we got down to the person that they were going to sell to, and the wife bought him out. She used that offer as proxy for fair market value, which to me I mean like I said, it forced me to change my engagement agreement from that point forward. But at the same time, we were pretty impressed that what a great way to, you know, if you can’t resolve who’s going to pay what, all right, you put it on the market. The market will tell you what the value is. And that’s my next question is the difference between fair market value in a divorce setting versus what I just described.

Melissa Gragg: [00:07:42] Well, and what you just described is when somebody is getting divorced, if it’s their first time, they don’t know what to do. A lot of the attorneys are kind of like giving advice on what to do. So, when we have a house, we’re like, oh, call an appraiser, get an idea. Just get a rough estimate of what it’s going to cost. And that might cost a couple hundred bucks to get an appraiser to tell you value your house. Now they say, oh, well, you know, there’s these business brokers, these appraisers, like go out and get an idea for them. So absolutely it has been used as a ploy to determine what the fair market value is.

Now, realistically in valuation, any type of merger is going to have some inkling of a strategic value. And so, when you have a strategic value, it’s that I know something about the market that makes me smarter and or I think I’m getting a deal because you’re going through the divorce or whatever the reasons are they might come up with it. Fair market value is willing buyer, willing seller. And that’s usually one of the edicts for a divorce, is that it just has to be you can’t pay a premium or you can’t get a premium for it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:56] Well, that’s what tripped me up. Why not in a million years did I think that we were — that at the end of the day, this is how it was going to work, because I figured somebody would put their hand up and say, this isn’t fair market value. This is something other than that. And it didn’t. And I mean, the judge was tickled pink that, you know, I mean you can’t argue about it.

Melissa Gragg: [00:09:20] The problem is judges, attorneys, everybody in divorce court, when you even describe fair market value and you’re like willing buyer, willing seller, the first thing they say is like, we’re not selling, we’re not selling, we’re not going to market. This isn’t how we should look at it, like it’s all me. You can’t sell me and all of these things which fair market value is the hypothetical. Like it is the assumption that you’re going to put it on the market and what would somebody pay for the cash flow?

And so, I think in in some capacity, when you have an unwilling business owner that is willing to sell out, but maybe not internally because again, you’re never going to know the true value if you’re just a warring couple or warring partners. Like you’re always going to assume that you’re getting screwed over. So, an outside buyer comes in and offers that price. The judge is going to love that because they’re going to say, well, somebody on the outside was willing to pay that and you now paid it. So that person got what it was worth. And they think that that is absolutely the proxy. And even if you have a conversation of, well, we had five buyers and we worked up the price and it’s now a 20 percent premium, quite frankly, then they would probably turn around and say, okay, well, are you willing, sir, to buy your wife’s shares out?

Now, to me, if the wife comes in and buys it at that point, then there was still an implicit understanding that it was worth more. And so now, you’re arguing against a kind of an assumption that’s probably erroneous. But like we’ve talked about this before, they’re locking in on that number and nothing even a willing buyer out in the open field offering to buy this, if they still think that it’s worth more. You know, like right now in divorce, the attachment to property is a big deal. So, the attachment to a business that’s maybe been in the family, or you have children that are working in the business, you have more complexity. Normally, these businesses provide the lifestyle for everyone involved. So, you can’t get rid of the business because then we don’t have an income. And if we don’t have an income, we can’t pay alimony and we can’t pay for the houses. So, it’s kind of a catch 22.

Ed Mysogland: [00:11:44] Play that out. So, what do you do? I mean, that wasn’t where I was going, but I’m interested in what in the world do you do when you have that level of complexity in a family business that the income stream is the source of income for a bunch of family members? Yeah. How do you do that?

Melissa Gragg: [00:12:05] Well, I mean, one is can it continue? And because once we start to take a look from a business valuation standpoint, we start to see some of the nuances, like we have to dial back some of those expenses to understand what the true cash flow is. But in those situations, when it’s providing for the family, a lot of times, I mean quite frankly those are the situations when you have a privately held company, majority owned by one person, right, the father, the grandfather, the mother, the grandmother, whatever, that hierarchy, and you have all these kids. Well, both spouses have an interest to have the kids still employed. But now you’re looking at, most of the time the other spouse is concerned that a lot of personal expenses are being run through the business.

And so, you have this kind of this thing of like, well, we want to dig deeper. Almost always there’s some issue of what has been done from an accounting standpoint, but it’s never in the best interest for the parties to go down that path of like threatening, well, I’m going to call somebody and you’re going to get in trouble for doing these things, putting personal expenses on your business. It’s really starting to educate them on the fact of that sometimes one income stream was great for one household, but it wasn’t great for two. And so, in looking at it, you don’t want to blow it up, right, because it’s still going to be funneling through one party to the other.

But then it becomes, is it rehabilitative, you know, like maintenance, paying somebody should get them to another spot, but that’s not always what it’s used for. So, it becomes a very difficult situation. But you don’t want to like throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like you don’t want to call the IRS or call the Feds to come in because my husband’s doing something or my wife’s doing something when it will crater the entire thing. It’s better to kind of come in and say that there’s a lot of discretionary items that should be done differently.

And as evaluators, we’re not coming in to say that the taxes were done incorrectly, right? We’re making the assumption that they were done properly with the CPA. So, if you have a business owner that does their own taxes, it’s a little bit different. You have to do your own professional due diligence and say, does it make sense? I mean, we had one just yesterday. We presented it. And they were very concerned. And it was based in an industry that has so much fraud in it. So, the odds are there’s something going on. But when we compared it to the bank statements and the tax returns and the financials, guess what, they weren’t too far off. Because the reality is most people aren’t criminals, they’re just trying to like get away with a little bit.

Ed Mysogland: [00:15:06] Yeah, minimize taxes.

Melissa Gragg: [00:15:07] Back it out in the valuation. Yup. Can we look at what it looks like without it? Yup. And that’s really how we approach it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:15:14] And then how do the parties feel about that? Because now, you’re a little bit different, like because you’re hired by both parties to mediate a value. So, your findings are, look, they are what they are. I don’t represent either one of you or I represent both of you. And here’s where it lands. But I guess as you start uncovering the discretionary expenses or you start uncovering getting the business down to truly what you’re valuing. And I mean, how is your level of scrutiny felt by the parties? Is it good or bad? I would imagine it’s good. At least somebody knows that this is going on well. At least one party does, you know.

Melissa Gragg: [00:16:08] Yeah. And I’m not always hired for both parties, but I think you have to operate in this space as if you are always are hired by both parties. Like really looking at it from a neutral standpoint. But then in kind of taking that one step further, if I’m working for both parties and I’m in the middle, I literally am telling them like everybody has their mediation spiel at the beginning. I’m telling them crazy stuff. Like everybody else wants to say, talk nice and be nice. And I’m like, no, I’m there to protect you from yourself and from everybody else in the room. And I’m there to provide education on the value and there’s always going to be gray.

So, in a lot of times, I have to bring the gray up. Like, oh, parties, are you aware, since this is a business owned by one spouse, about the double dip? And they’re like, no, I don’t know about the double dip. And I’m like, well, the double dip is, we can only have income be either salary or profit. And they’re like, okay, well, tell me more. And we talk about that. Well, of course, some of these things are on the side of one party or the other. But if I say it to everybody involved and I say, here are the positives and negatives, and I create it as a situation that we just talk about, it diffuses it.

And if there is an issue, if you spent $1,000, let’s say $10,000, make it good, $10,000 at a jeweler. And I ask what was bought and it was not to your wife, it still is. You control the vibe and the energy of the room. And so, if I’m like, well, what is this $10,000? Did you buy a diamond? Or if I’m just like, it looks like there was $10,000 to Diamond Company, is everybody aware of what was purchased? And one person might say no. And I’ll say, okay, what was purchased? Was it for business purposes? And then it will typically, if there’s infidelity, it’s already known. And we’re quantifying it to say, okay, you spent $10,000 on the paramour. But the thing is, most people use their bank account for multiple expenditures, but the tax accountant is allocating it out and saying this is to the business and this is to you personally. But the spouse doesn’t know that process and doesn’t see that process.

And so, I’m like, yeah, I know he’s using the card, but it’s still the accountant is not putting that as an expense. So, some of it’s education, some of it’s identifying the issues when we have inheritances involved or settlements from suits that’s going to have a little bit more houses, have a little bit more energy. More than houses, vacation homes, because vacation homes are where we went when we were happy as a family. And we want to continue to be happy as a family, even if it’s without that one spouse. So, I’ve seen vacation homes become more of like both parties can use them. But you need to identify where the emotion is going to be because when you mix emotion and numbers, they don’t match. You have to deal with the numbers in a very different way than you have to deal with the emotions. So, when the numbers are tied to the emotion, if you don’t know that going in, how do you back down off of that emotion?

Ed Mysogland: [00:19:52] So in a sale environment, I mean what’s the tip or what’s the tell that things are going to go awry. So, if I’m getting divorced, I want to know, people that are listening, what am I looking for, or how do I know this path? What’s going to happen to me? Or what is the scrutiny? Is this really the colonoscopy I’m told it’s going to be? That kind of thing.

Melissa Gragg: [00:20:28] If you’re the broker, if you’re the M&A advisor and somebody is going through a divorce, you have to be very clear. I would almost get both parties in the room and have the discussion like this is the process. We’re going to get offers, because if you can in the room zoom, however you do it at this point. But if you can lay eyes on that out spouse, the spouse that’s not part of it, and everybody is saying, yes, we are selling this company. If that person is sitting back and being like, well, like how much? Like what is it going to entail? Those are going to be your signs that that’s going to, like if you don’t answer those questions now, eventually that’s almost like your second seller, right? So, you get everything.

So, your first seller is the person that’s totally making the decisions and yet they still have the second seller in the back that could trump everything. So, unless you know the relationship and you’ve put eyes on it because guess what? In a divorce, there’s three stories. Wife, husband, husband, husband, wife, wife. However, you want to look at, there’s two sides, and then there’s the truth. And the problem is, if you don’t put eyes on that situation and it’s acrimonious or it’s okay or they are not aligned, I would almost step back from the situation because you’re just punting that issue until you get closer to a close date and then it’s going to just ruin it at that point. So, I think you’ve got to get both. And who’s making the decision? Like if the court has determined that it’s going to be sold, then there is a written court order for the sale of that company. And so, then you’re working. Now, can somebody break it? Sure, they’re people.

Ed Mysogland: [00:22:16] Well, the funny thing is most of the blowups in recent memory has been once we get an offer and we start moving down that path of this is, you know, how much we’re getting, what’s the promissory note? If there’s a bank involved, is there sub debt? And the prospect of I’m going to have to defer part of my purchase price with this guy I’m trying to totally divest myself of, you know, it hasn’t gone well. And again, as well as due diligence.

Due diligence is another thing, especially if you’ve got husband and wife that have been working in the business and now buyer has to rely on them collectively to provide whether it’s a quality of earnings or whether it’s just your normal due diligence. It is a total pain and that’s where it falls apart. So, I guess that’s where my next question is, you know, now you know where it is, what do you do? I mean, have you seen anything effective that would help me not allow the, I shouldn’t say not allow, how to prevent the deal from blowing up once we agree on purchase price? We’re only about 30 percent of the way there. now we’ve got to verify.

Melissa Gragg: [00:23:51] I think you have to frontload it. So, I think you have to frontload all the work. But the thing that somebody says when they’re in a divorce and when they’re selling their company is the same, it’s my second job. And so, when you’re in a divorce selling your company and running a company, you now have three jobs. And the problem is three jobs is going to stress out anybody, but then you have a divorce which is highly emotional. And then, quite frankly, we are discounting the fact that selling your baby, I mean, your company is highly emotional.

So, when you combine those three, you either have to lower your expectation for quickness and that’s never a good thing in a deal. Right? Like we can’t just like, oh, you have due diligence requests, we’ll get back to you next month. That’s the close. Like you don’t have that space. So, in my mind, if I see somebody that’s in a divorce and every end, like we’re going to talk about all the issues at the beginning, all the negotiations, we’re going to have everything ready for due diligence before it’s even requested. And just be prepared for that capability because I don’t want to disclose it to the buyers of like, oh, you know, like will you be patient with my client because they’re going through a divorce. Like, they don’t care. They see blood and they’re just going to go for you and they’re going to be like, oh, fine, yeah, we’ll give you more time. We’re going to ding you on the price too.

So, in my mind, it’s really having, like everything I think is setting the expectation. And so, if you set the expectation with the couple and you’re like, I don’t know if this is going to be a good time or not or who is the front person, like what things do we have to agree with and what things that we don’t? Because the moment you continue to leave out a spouse, especially gender related, that spouse is not your gender, right, so you keep on leaving out the wife, you’re going to be the bad guy, he’s going to be the bad guy. And it’s going to be a perceived not disclosing the information. You could be giving them everything but the perception.

And so, I think when you get involved in these like people don’t like divorce because half of it’s on perception. There’s no logic about it. There’s no real thing happening. It’s just the perception like, oh, you didn’t have a conversation with, I’m the owner too. And as a woman, we are constantly put to the side in those situations, especially when it’s male advisors. And so, I think that in anything you have to do your own due diligence, the way I do mediations or when I work for a joint party, we have very clear communication. You do not get to talk to me without me responding with your original email. So, if you email me and say I hate this person and the value should be this, I’m going to say thank you for your email. And I’m going to respond to everyone, your spouse, the advisor, everyone. And I’m going to say, I’m going to clarify the situation. And so, in my mind, that keeps me away from having any confidential discussions. Now, I can tell you how we use confidential discussions, but for those from the very beginning until I get the trust of everyone, everything has to be communicated to the whole.

Ed Mysogland: [00:27:15] Well, I’ll tell you, one of the things that you just said was I think really impactful is front loading. That if you’re going to go through a divorce, you need to prepare much more. The normal data room is not adequate. You need a full due diligence uploaded and ready to go because I think the shorter the time from offer to close, even though that’s best practice anyway, in that case you have to do it. That was really great.

Melissa Gragg: [00:27:59] But realistically in a divorce, the discovery process is very extensive. So, in some capacity, if you’re selling after you’re getting divorced, in the divorce is a lot of the documents. Now, if you’re selling and then getting divorced, it’s the vice versa. Like you have all the documents. And in those cases, if you are not hiding the ball, if you are not trying to keep documents away from your spouse, it doesn’t even make sense. Like you are a couple, your money comes from one pot and yet you’re going to take your money and pay two different people to value the same thing. And they’re guaranteed going to come up with different numbers for sure, going to come up with different numbers. And then you’re just going to pay them to fight. And nobody else in the room even knows what they’re talking about.

So, I think that the documents might be there, but they may not be. I mean you’re not going to be ready for equality of earnings. You’re going to have it. And for the most part, I think business brokers and M&A advisors, we know what is going to be needed. And so, from my standpoint, if you see kind of slow times in the process from the divorce standpoint or whatever, because like divorces could take a year or two.

Ed Mysogland: [00:29:16] I get it.

Melissa Gragg: [00:29:16] You might sell a company and still be getting divorced. So, I think you just have to know where you’re at in the process. And then the additional pieces, is this business cyclical? Because if this business is cyclical and we’re heading into Christmas season and that’s their time, you all just have to stop. Like at some point, you just have to be like, this is not going to work. Because if you start to crater the business owner like and with mental health at an all-time high issue, it could be more impactful. So, I just think that having them understand that each of these takes time and a process and that hey, you have the time now, get the documents now, let’s answer the questions. I mean, even doing preliminary valuations, I tell people it’s going to help you know the answers that you have no clue. Like what happened to that expense? I just asked a client, what is this $700,000 other income?

Ed Mysogland: [00:30:21] What was it?

Melissa Gragg: [00:30:22] Like it’s not like $7. It’s like $700. And you know what he said to me? And I said, it was last year, last year, like, we’re right there. Right. And he’s like, really? I wonder how that could be. And I was like, do you think your accountant knows? Oh, yeah, I’m sure she knows. Wait, wait, it could have been literally he named four different things that it could be. So, you have to understand the level of business of what you’re, like does the owner have a hand on every single thing? Or is the owner — I mean because the companies that are selling are $25, $50 million, right? These owners are not doing everything.

And so, they don’t know the answer, but they’re sitting in the room negotiating these. Like you’re negotiating these prices with them. And then they ask one question of like, well, where’s that $700,000 of other income? And you’re like, hey, guy, what’s that 700? And he’s like, oh, it could have been a lot of things. Is it recurring? Is it going to happen again? I don’t know. I don’t know. So, I think that a lot of it’s your due diligence so that you can conduct it without the owner there. And most of the time, we want to conduct all of this with the owner.

Ed Mysogland: [00:31:33] Yeah, no, no.

Melissa Gragg: [00:31:34] But there are going to be times where they’re just going to disappear because they’re going to be so overwhelmed by all of this.

Ed Mysogland: [00:31:40] Yeah, I follow. Well, I want to conclude the story of the woman I told you that used us for fair market value. And her husband was just, I mean just that kind of guy, good for her for getting divorced kind of guy. And she turned it and flipped it. She bought it and flipped it. And I’ll bet you, she made — it wasn’t times two, but it was a good one and a half times, and it was within months. She knew exactly what she was doing. And I loved it because, like I said, it was you don’t wish divorce on anybody, but, boy, you know, this guy was just not, it was a good situation.

Melissa Gragg: [00:32:29] So, I think the hardest issue in divorce valuation in general is that when we’re doing strategic value, when we’re looking at investors, when we’re working for the company, right, and talking about how to grow it, sell it, buy it, whatever, we’re looking at really like what is the potential, right? And we’re kind of ignoring the probability that that’s going to happen because we’re speculating. And quite frankly, even sometimes when I get into these businesses, I was like, yeah, I see it. I see the future. It is bright, it’s going to be beautiful, but it hasn’t happened.

And like, as much as I believe that it could happen, in a divorce we are looking at what has happened, because in some courts they think that a future or a projection or a DCF, a discounted cash flow model is future projections and its future value. Right. And sometimes, we can’t explain that away because they’re just like, no, you’re not. And in divorce, you’re sometimes not entitled to future value. You’re entitled to what this value is today. And so, I think in that capacity, it’s hard because you get in these situations and you feel and you hear the impassioned business owner and they always think that their business is worth more, way more money until they get divorced and then it’s worth nothing, you know. So, you always have that issue.

But for me, it’s kind of getting out of the speculation and the belief that it is going to happen because these people are usually brilliant and they’re coming up with great ideas and they may have a lot of cash flow that’s coming in or investors, but we can’t speculate. Like if you haven’t proved it, and that’s the hard part. Like somebody could say, oh, okay, you’re going to go sell this business for $1 million. I got somebody who’s willing to pay $2 million. Why? Because I sold them on the dream, right? It’s still the same business, but I was able to create a vision that they bought into better than you. Okay. But either way, even if they walked away and that spouse bought it from you, like she probably needed to still pay the deal fees, right?

Ed Mysogland: [00:34:47] No. That’s my point. No, no. That was the whole point. She was excluded from our agreement. It was third party. That’s why I said we changed all of our agreements. If that changes hands from a family member, we’re getting paid. And in this case, it was an intercompany sale. So, yeah, we took it on the chin on that one. But like I said, you know, we paid the tuition and that’s okay. It hasn’t ever happened again.

So, the remaining time that we have, I wanted to talk to you about the work you’re doing with selling companies, because regardless of who you use or how you get your business sold, ultimately the goal is to have a successful exit. And the model that, what you’ve taken as far as the mediation process and applied it to selling a company, to me I think that is fascinating and truly a great way to exit a business. So, can you talk a little bit about your process and the evolution of it I guess to begin with and then how you do that and what has been most effective on, you know, as far as the exit?

Melissa Gragg: [00:36:12] I think lately I’ve seen more partnerships either buying in or buying out. And most of it’s because we either got money sitting on the side or we need the money, right? And so, somebody will come to me and they will say, hey, I got a person, they’re thinking maybe they’re employee, maybe they’re an outside, they want to buy the company. And I need to know what it’s worth because we need to start these negotiations. And then I say, great. And usually, it’s the business owner, right? And sometimes it’s the person buying in. I’m going to buy into this company, can you tell me if it’s going to be worth it?

A lot of times, I’m telling them like, you don’t need a valuation report. Like you need numbers run and depending upon your credential, you can either run those numbers and give a smaller piece of paper or not, but you have to understand your own standards. But it’s really, though, because what I tell them is I can give you a number, I can look at the business, and I can give you the number. And that’s going to be the starting point of the negotiation.

And whatever number you tell them, depending upon what side you are, is either where you start and you’re going to pay more, or you are going to get less. But either way, you have to determine where that starting point is. And I say, a way to do this if we don’t start right now is you go back to that person, that partner, and you say, hey, do you want to do it together? You split the fees or in some cases, if it’s you’re buying out a partner, it’s the company. And I come in and I do the same thing. It’s the communication has to be clear, communication with all parties.

And we go in and we look, and I get them to all sign off on the history, the adjustments. I still do the math, but I’m like, hey, does this adjusted EBITDA make sense? Does this projection make sense? And they come back, and they argue the inputs, the assumptions basically. They’re like, oh, I think it’s going to be growing faster. Well, now you think a 3 percent growth rate. He thinks a 15 percent growth rate. I think I have an industry report that says seven, but I show you what seven and ten looks like. And eventually, I will offer them, so we negotiate.

And then at some point I say, okay, are we good on the numbers? Like you understand what I’m saying as the cash flow going forward if you’re doing capitalization of earnings? They say yes. And I say, okay, boop, here’s the value. And they’re like — and they should be, each of them should be moderately okay and moderately, that they’re going to like sit there and be like, are you okay with it because, wait, because they don’t want to get screwed. You just don’t want to get screwed in this situation. But what happens is I’m defending the number, not them. So, they can still remain friends because I’m the enemy and I’m the enemy to both of them, because one of them wants it higher and one of them wants it lower.

So, they’re going to come at me from both sides. But what they’re not having conversations with is each other. Because if you negotiate just two people, you made up your numbers. And if you made up your numbers, I just don’t like yours and you don’t like mine and there’s no basis for them. So, now we’re in this tit for tat and we’re not probably going to be happy after it because you’re both going to feel screwed. And so, in doing this in the middle, we show the number and then I say, hey, you each get an hour with me by yourself. And they’re like, what? And I’m like, yeah, so we’re going to take these models or templates. And we’ve done this with family members of four different parties warring. Everybody gets an hour and we use the models and the templates to run your numbers.

So, you thought it was a 3 percent growth rate. You thought that we would have to get debt. You thought that that was a bad ad back. Whatever it was that you just didn’t like, I get to show you what the number means now. Sometimes I do it with both of them there and say, oh, you wanted these things. The value is now it’s not a million anymore, it’s $990,000. And then I go over to this guy, and I say, you know, you wanted this and the value is $1.1 million. And so, and maybe it’s $1.2, right? So, it’s a little bit down on this guy, but a little bit more up on this one.

Now, I’ve established the range that you guys negotiate and then I tell them now the value is one issue. We have to negotiate employment contracts, earn outs, buyouts, the timing for the buyout. So, now you’re arguing the facilitation of the buyout as opposed to the number of the buyout, right? And that’s where it kind of changes. And quite frankly, if you’re buying in, this is a bigger deal because now you’re going to buy — you now have an unequal distribution of power. And unless I level the playing field from a power standpoint, the person that doesn’t have control over it is always going to think I am in the corner of the businessperson.

Ed Mysogland: [00:41:16] So doesn’t the business owner, in their operating agreement or bylaws, isn’t there something that governs people buying in? And do you kick that to the curb and say, you know what, I get it, but this is how we’re going to do it? Or better yet, Mr. Owner, this is what we’re going to have to supersede this agreement in order to get that party into this business if you truly want him as him or her as an investor, how does that work?

Melissa Gragg: [00:41:48] I will say a buy sell agreement. I haven’t seen one written properly or well. And I think a lot of people go and try to help people come up with better buy sells so that they can avoid this. I will tell you for the most part, and I can’t say all the way and I can’t say every state, for the most part when I’ve been involved in litigation where there was a very specific buy sell, almost specific enough to say we determine the EBITDA based on this, this is the multiple, blah, blah, blah, and there’s some room to allow the valuation, the court throws it out.

Ed Mysogland: [00:42:26] Really? Why?

Melissa Gragg: [00:42:27] I have very rarely seen a buy sell with upheld. One is because most of the things that they say is going to happen in the buy sell that they’ve covered is not what is happening. And then the divorce is kind of different. So, if the divorce says, oh, it’s going to be book value, yeah, that’s not an equitable situation. So, the court could just say that’s not equitable, that’s not fair. And then I come in anyway. And so, for the most part, and I think that where we went wrong as we figured out a long time ago that we would negotiate from a position that we make up. And I am finding that if we negotiate from some solid numbers with some decent multiples and decent cash flow, because the reality is, what am I buying? Am I buying $500,000 of cash flow? Am I buying $100,000 of cash flow? And if I can’t get to that point where we all agree to it, why am I buying into it?

So, it’s really going to uncover how do they — and I will tell both of them, I said, how you deal with this is a very good indication of how you deal with this going forward and all issues that you’re going to talk to about being two owners. And so, it just started as a thing that I just did a couple of times, and then it became like, I value the company every year for whoever buys in and buys out. Quite frankly, I believe that if you want to lock in a buy sell, you need to value the company every single year. And that value becomes the value that anybody over the next year can buy in or buy out for.

And then it’s been determined. It’s a consistent process. You have a pattern. To me, in any of this, especially if you’re going to continue to buy in and buy out like an ESOP, any sort of employee, like employees buying in and out because that’s how the boomers and everybody is going to exit, right? There has to be like, you can’t just be bought out sometimes. Like sometimes there’s going to be family members and things like that. It’s going to be a transition period, but you’re going to be working. Even if somebody comes in and buys your company out totally, one to three years you’re going to be working with them.

So, if you hate them on day one, this is not the endeavor that you want to go about. And you’re hating them because they didn’t like your number, but your number was pulled from the sky. And it’s what you felt it was worth, but I try to encourage people to have solid foundation to negotiate because there’s always ways to give. Like if I come in and I do the valuation right, and I’ve done it for so many families. And that’s where it becomes key.

Niece is buying out of business, right? I’m coming in and trying to save those relationships from the negotiation process. But if I don’t have some support for that position, now if I come in and say this is worth a million and you really want to sell it to them for $800,000, there’s nothing that prevents you from doing that. I’m just giving you a rubric or a container of here’s the reasonable value. If you decide to go outside of the reasonable value, what do we know in mergers and acquisitions? You can go outside any you want. Maybe that niece is like, no, no, auntie, I want to make sure you get at $1.5 million. Okay, but I want you to continue to work.

Again, we were solving situations with a number that we just thought everybody would seal on, and they’re not. There’s no number. That’s the hard part for people to understand. Even if I do this for a living and I come up with numbers for four companies, there really is no number. There’s a range of reasonable value. Hopefully, both experts, or multiple experts would all be in that range, but there’s a range of reasonable value and then there’s negotiating the intricacies of the deal. So I might take $800,000 because I want a two year salary.

Ed Mysogland: [00:46:44] So in your practice, one of the things, I mean you’re able to facilitate exits and not just with family members. And in our original conversation, you’re dealing with people that have received indications of interest and actually helping those two, I don’t say merge, but there’s an exit. But you’re right in the middle of it. I don’t want to say — I mean you’re a value broker is I think the term I used before. I mean, you’re right in the middle of brokering that value. So, you know —

Melissa Gragg: [00:47:25] I think business brokers and M&A advisors, because I was in that field, right, that’s where I started. We were always trying to get these great companies to sell or buy. The good companies, EBITDA of $1 million or more, $5 million. And the reality is I’m valuing companies every year just for strategic planning. And what I am seeing, and this is post pandemic, this was not pre-pandemic, this is post-pandemic, this is very much business owners that are 55, 65, 75, I am seeing so much money in the hands of private equity and big companies that they are just coming to my client’s door and knocking on the door. And they’re like, Hey guys, are you for sale? And my clients like no. And they’re like, how about name your price. And then they’re like, name my price?

Okay. So, then they come back to me and they’re like, hey, somebody wants to name their price. I know we were worth a million dollars at the year end, but do you think we can get three? And I’m like, I don’t know. Let’s take a look at it. So, it’s negotiating that purchase price up. But what I say, so I come in there and I say, hey, can you go hire my guy, Ed, because he’s going to help you like make sure you get the right. And you know what the owners say, why would I bring in Ed? Like, I can do this. And you know what the buyer says? Why are you bringing in Ed? We want to screw the seller over. Don’t bring in Ed. Ed’s going to protect them.

And so, we’re going in this interesting space where business owners are doing their own deals, regardless of what you say. And so, and I’m like I got people that won’t charge you on the deal fee. Like they’ll just charge you by the hour. Now, they’re like, I got you. Can we just use you? And I’m like, What? But the reality is they’re getting it done and some of the buyers and sellers just want to do this business owner to business owners. So, they’re not — like sometimes it’s an unsophisticated buyer. I had an unsophisticated buyer and seller where literally they were both like, okay, Melissa so should we both just hire the same attorney? Like, who should we hire to do that? And that, quite frankly, after being in a lot of deals that were really bad or went wrong or had post litigation after the deal, like one of my deals literally within a month, they already had an issue, right, because of some stuff.

Ed Mysogland: [00:50:00] Totally. Yeah, stuff.

Melissa Gragg: [00:50:01] That’s what’s happening. And it’s interesting to me because these are the clients I always wanted when I would go to M&A, right. And I could never get them because they were kind of untouchable because they had so many advisors around them. But the reality is this valuation is kind of the carrot and they want to know because they want to negotiate themselves. And then when they’re not good at it, they need us to help them, in the wings though. Half the time, I’m helping them but not a leader.

Ed Mysogland: [00:50:36] Yeah. I’ll tell you. And in our shop, I mean, I can tell you with certainty, if you do valuation work, I mean digging in, not necessarily a full blown report, but digging in and understanding the value and understanding how the buyer is going to look at. You got 87 percent of the time, your business sells. I mean, that’s a huge number. And at the same time, I wish and I think I’m going to, just because you said it, I’m going to start keeping track of our profit center of unscrewing up people’s original work, not value work, but negotiation work. And just what you describe, hey, I’ve got a buyer or I’ve got multiple buyers. You know, I get these letters every day and now what? Well, you know, I got this far and you know, the —

Melissa Gragg: [00:51:33] And I told my guys I was like, if you get calls every week, write down the names.

Ed Mysogland: [00:51:37] Right.

Melissa Gragg: [00:51:38] Write down the names. Just write down. Like that’s our short list of if we did want to do. Because what I see is when really profitable companies go to sell, there’s usually an event, a health event, a situation that happens that makes it be like, okay, we got to sell in six months. And the reality is when the person comes knocking, if you are ready and if you know the worth, your worth, right, then you’re in a better situation. If you also, you know, it’s not like, oh, doing a valuation makes you better prepared. No, doing a valuation or having some consistent advisors in general, they’re going to be like, hey, why are you doing that? Oh, that’s not good. Don’t do that. Stop. Get an accountant. Clean up the books.

And so, when they come, quite frankly, if somebody does a quality of earnings on one of my deals, it should go smooth because we already knew, you know, or even like we talked about this, we’ll negotiate the holdback. Like I will negotiate the whole back at the LOI stage and they’re like, why are you negotiating this? And I was like, Because you’re going to come back and ding me on it at the end. Like, let’s talk about everything right now.

Ed Mysogland: [00:52:51] It’s funny you say it because I was just squabbling with another deal person and they were like, you got to be kidding me. Well, I told you I had Elliot Holland from Guardian Due Diligence on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And I was saying, boy, if you could just show up to a buyer, show a buyer here’s where the quality of earnings, wouldn’t it make the whole process go infinitely easier? And the opposing viewpoint was why in the world would I air my laundry and get dinged at the beginning? And I’m sitting here going, well, I’m not really certain. I’m questioning how big are the ding you would receive. I mean they may look at and say, yeah, you know what? It may not be worth as much as we originally thought. But I have to believe downstream, after everybody’s put some time into it, they’re going to get dinged worse. You know what I mean? From a value penalty. What do you think?

Melissa Gragg: [00:53:58] If you have a skeleton in the closet, period, point blank, we have to pull them out. We have to dress them up. We have to put lipstick on them. We have to make it look good. But we need to tell them selling your company is like a relationship, okay. So, if you have, I don’t know, a really big issue, an STD, you probably should tell that person before you do that next step. And so, in selling your company, if you know that when they come to your facility, you know something’s going to be there that they’re not aware of, then why wouldn’t we prep? Why wouldn’t we just — here’s the thing is, why aren’t we just honest? Right? Just be honest. You want to buy it or not buy it.

And I think that that’s where these business owners are, because if they’re being approached, then they’re kind of like, okay. And I do say let’s anchor the deal. Like, let’s put that number out there because I want them to negotiate off of our number as opposed to, they come in and you want $5 million and they tell you $1, guess what’s going to happen? Every single day if you do that deal, you’re going to remember that day. Right? And you’re going to think that they tried to screw you and it’s just going to blow up. Like so much trust is built in the deal process with those two owners that if you — like we had a situation where there like there was some adjustment. And they’re like, oh, we don’t need to tell them about that. Oh yes, we do. Or we bought out — one of our deals, we bought out an owner like at a year before at a very different price. And they said do you have a valuation for that buyout, a report? And they said nope. Well, how did you buy him out? Oh, we did the analysis with Melissa, but we never summarized it in a report. Oh, really?

So, I presented the value to all the partners jointly, and they purchased each other out at that price or a similar price. And when they did it, they said, okay, well, we need it in writing so that everybody, I said no, I would not put it in writing. And they’re like, Why? I said, because when due diligence comes. And they say, can you give us your past valuation reports for the past five years, you get to say the truth, which is you don’t have one.

Ed Mysogland: [00:56:25] That’s great. No, that’s great.

Melissa Gragg: [00:56:26] So that’s how I protect you from yourself in the deal.

Ed Mysogland: [00:56:30] That is such great advice. And the funny thing is that these sellers, to me, the level of scrutiny and the amount of professional advisers that are going to be in this deal, it’s going to be found out. Whatever you think you’re going to hide, there’s no way that anybody’s going to not find it. And so, this caveat emptor stuff because you know, like I said, this other deal guy you know I’d never put a quality of earnings up front. Yeah. Well, I am totally on the opposite end of the spectrum, and it sounds to me like you are too.

Melissa Gragg: [00:57:17] Well and if you don’t give them the report, I think you have to do the work. I think if you’re going to consider — I mean, and you know, this is the stuff that we say. But if you’re going to consider selling, cleaning up your books, getting an idea of the value, because the reality is you’re going to think it’s worth more than it is figuring out what the after-tax effect, because guess what, there are taxes in these deals. That’s why we do stock — understanding a stock or asset sale. Like why do I care? Understanding what happens if you sell a C-Corp or an S-Corp. These are little things, but I think that that’s how you can start to educate the client is how do you do some of these things.

Now, I think that this is kind of different, but I think that we’re going to start moving towards a private marketplace and we’re going to start moving towards like a matchmaking kind of situation because like I have a certain type of company that my buyer wants, right? And they want a certain type of company. I was like, okay, we’re going to go look for it. And then the next week I get a call from somebody who wants to sell that company. And I was like, what? I was like, you know, I already have a buyer, but I’ll do that work, but I’m going to value it and I’m going to say what it’s worth because we have to do it for certain other purposes. And I can’t, it’s my reputation so I got to do it right.

But I think I could go back to my buyer and say, I already did this valuation. She doesn’t want that because it’s fair market value. She wants more. And now, conceptually — so like let’s say right now you and I are both businesses and my price tag says $10 million and yours says $7, right? So, you come to me and you’re like, hey, your price tag says $10 million like a matchmaking site kind of, right? Your price tag says $10 million. I said, oh, no, no, no, no. Yes, that’s what it’s worth. But like, for me to sell now, it’s going to be $12.

Now, what am I going to negotiate? I’m negotiating the premium. Everybody’s aware of what the fair market value, the base value. Now, do you want to buy it for a premium? What is your premium compared to that person’s premium? And now, I’m going to get what I’m worth, but I want more. Now you’re like, well, but your price tag says $10 million. I was like, yeah, I know, but that’s in five years. Thanks. Bye. $12 million today. Now you might say I would — now I got cancer and I’m like, they go, okay, will you take $9 million? And I’ll be like, yeah, I’ll take it right now, but it creates this openness about what the issues are. And we’re open dating, right. Because most for the most part, people don’t want to sell their company. When you ask business owners, do you want to sell your company, they say, no, we want to grow it. We want to expand. But they’re going to get the knock at the door. And that’s, I think what you have to be prepared for is when the knock comes, are you ready?

Ed Mysogland: [01:00:17] That’s a good point. All right. I appreciate you going over our time. So, my last question is the one I ask every guest is, what is the one piece of advice that you could give to the listeners that would have the greatest impact on their business? How’s that?

Melissa Gragg: [01:00:40] So, what I normally always tell people is know your numbers so you can be a brilliant marketer, you can be a brilliant rainmaker, you can have the personality the size of Texas. Everybody will love you. But there’s veracity and understanding behind numbers. And when you can at least talk the numbers, and if you can’t talk numbers, if numbers is not your strong point, then have somebody that does that you can understand from or like even attorneys. I’m like, you got to start understanding what the business mean. What do these business things mean? Because quite frankly, you know, like I’ve been talking to a lot of people about like chat GPT and stuff like that and AI. And I was like, AI is going to take away everything, all of this bullshit that comes out. Oh, can we just take that out? Any of that bull that comes out of our mouths can be created by AI.

So, you have to figure out why do they need you in the room, the virtual room, the actual room. So, if you’re just coming in and you’re spitting out or just doing this rote stuff because you heard somebody wants to buy a company, oh, you’re going to pay five times, three times EBITDA. If you don’t really know why somebody would pay a premium for you, if there’s not a differentiator, then there’s a problem. If you can’t walk away from it, you know, like I got a guy, he’s running an amazing company. And I was like, your goal is to leave for two weeks and not take a call. And he’s like, no. And I was like, okay, well, maybe it’s next year’s goal.

Ed Mysogland: [01:02:23] Right.

Melissa Gragg: [01:02:24] This year’s goal might be a little bit different, but I don’t think business owners understand that letting go of their business takes time. And so, you have time to get to know your numbers. You have time to know why things are moving, because, quite frankly, start budgeting, start projecting, work with somebody to see if you even line up with the projections and start to take a more calculated. Because for me personally, companies sell amazing on two to three years of great trajectory of growth and they sell well on top. You take that one dip down, it’s not so good anymore. So, it’s really like when’s the right timing and opportunity? And if somebody is going to come knock at your door, be ready, because that’s going to be the easiest deal you probably have ever done.

Ed Mysogland: [01:03:19] Hundred percent. And the fact of the matter is, is that there is so much activity of buyer. You know, it used to be that we were the kind of the conduit to the marketplace anymore. Oh, my gosh. You know, the work that we do to find buyers, anybody can do it. We may know different buyers and better buyers, but generally speaking, you know, the process of procuring a seller list and targeting and so on, so forth, there’s all kinds of books on it. But again, it is what it is.

Melissa Gragg: [01:03:58] I think people will move and shift towards more partnerships, more buying initiatives, trying to get lower costs on supplies and things like that. But the old, you know, merging and somebody is just going to take away all the risk and give you all the money, I don’t think that necessarily happens unless you have heavy equipment companies. But these service companies and things like that, I think you just have to be — you have to know how you are making money, if it can continue, and what reliance it has on you. And if you can answer those questions, those are going to be the bigger questions that a buyer is going to ask. And if the buyer doesn’t think they can ask you questions, how are they going to keep you around and how are they going to think that you’ve done something that’s sustainable? It’s your credibility at that point.

Ed Mysogland: [01:04:53] It is. Well, thanks twice for your time. You were awesome the first time. You were even better the second time. So, where can where can listeners find you?

Melissa Gragg: [01:05:08] Well, currently we have valuationmediation.com, which is really what we’re doing a lot of our valuation in some sort of collaborative fashion. Whether it’s really called mediation or not, it’s really just working with one person when you have multiple parties that just need a number. But that’s a good way to reach out to me. You can connect on LinkedIn. I’m always connecting with LinkedIn, people, even strangers. I know that’s verboten, but I’m fine with it. And reach out to me. Most people have my cell phone and it’s pretty much everywhere on the websites. And if I have the capability to answer, I do. So, I get a lot of calls from like, I saw a video and I have a question and I’m like, great. And sometimes they result in like great cases or clients. So, I think just put yourself out there and be available.

Ed Mysogland: [01:06:02] I got it. And you also have a podcast too.

Melissa Gragg: [01:06:06] Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, we do have Valuationpodcast.com. This is what happens when you get two podcasters together. Like really, what? Like I’m in the role of I don’t have to worry about that, but we do. We also have a mediatorpodcast.com Which is for the mediation side of it because I think that’s going to be really big in the future as well.

Ed Mysogland: [01:06:28] I agree. Well, Melissa, it’s been great. I sure appreciate your time and I can’t wait to hear the feedback from people because this is a different way of looking at a common issue. So, I’m so grateful for our time. Thanks again.

Melissa Gragg: [01:06:44] All right. Well, thanks, Ed. I appreciate it. Not a lot of people have me on other podcasts, so this is awesome.

Ed Mysogland: [01:06:51] Well, they’re just going to have to listen to this one and they’ll figure out what a great guest you are. Thanks again.

Male: [01:06:58] Thank you for joining us today on How to Sell your Business podcast. If you want more episodes packed with strategies to help sell your business for the maximum value, visit HowtosellaBusinesspodcast.com for tips and best practices to make your exit life changing. Better yet, subscribe now so you never miss future episodes. This program is copyrighted by Myso Inc. All rights reserved.

 

Kimberly DeCarrera, DeCarrera Law

January 30, 2023 by John Ray

Kimberly DeCarrera, DeCarrera Law

Kimberly DeCarrera, DeCarrera Law (North Fulton Business Radio, Episode 604)

If you have questions about the FTC proposed regulation to ban non-compete agreements, this episode is for you. Kimberly DeCarrea, Founder and Principal at DeCarrera Law, joined host John Ray on this episode of North Fulton Business Radio to share how she serves as an Outside General Counsel for her business clients. In addition to her perspective on the FTC proposal, Kimberly shared some steps a business should take in response, as well as different legal trends in 2023, the obligations businesses can have regarding unclaimed property, and much more.

North Fulton Business Radio is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® inside Renasant Bank in Alpharetta.

DeCarrera Law

You are looking for a strategic partnership in a lawyer. Anyone can read and advise on your contracts. But who will tell you whether this contract is a good idea or not?

DeCarrera Law brings together the disciplines of law and accounting to provide clients with customized plans to reduce risk, resolve historical liabilities, and ultimately to be profitable moving forward.

The intersection of law and accounting provides a unique balance between corporate legal and accounting departments to find solutions that might not otherwise be available to practitioners of only one discipline.

Website | LinkedIn

Kimberly DeCarrera, Outside General Counsel, DeCarrera Law

Kimberly DeCarrera, Outside General Counsel, DeCarrera Law

Kimberly DeCarrera is an attorney serving clients as Outside General Counsel at DeCarrera Law, LLC. As Outside General Counsel, she does everything that an in-house general counsel would do, but on a part-time or fractional basis. By serving multiple clients at once, you get insights from other businesses and best practices from across different industries. It also doesn’t cost as much as a full-time attorney in-house, which is great for new startups and high-growth mid-market companies that don’t have a need for full-time attorneys.

She has worked in-house in logistics and professional services firms. She is a graduate of Georgia State Law and Georgia State Robinson College of Business with a Masters in Tax. She also has a degree in Management from Georgia Tech.

When not practicing law and advising clients, Kimberly is a big Georgia Tech fan and can be found at football, baseball, or basketball games. Often tailgating in an RV. She runs RV Tailgate Life – a travel and sports website. She also recently adopted a rescue beagle named Layla.

LinkedIn | Twitter

Questions and Topics in this Interview

  • Non-competes and FTC proposals
  • Starting and growing businesses in 2023
  • Legal trends in 2023
  • Business processes and procedures
  • Unclaimed property
  • Running blogs/online businesses

North Fulton Business Radio is hosted by John Ray and broadcast and produced from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® inside Renasant Bank in Alpharetta. You can find the full archive of shows by following this link. The show is available on all the major podcast apps, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, Amazon, iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, and others.

RenasantBank

Renasant Bank has humble roots, starting in 1904 as a $100,000 bank in a Lee County, Mississippi, bakery. Since then, Renasant has grown to become one of the Southeast’s strongest financial institutions with over $13 billion in assets and more than 190 banking, lending, wealth management and financial services offices in Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. All of Renasant’s success stems from each of their banker’s commitment to investing in their communities as a way of better understanding the people they serve. At Renasant Bank, they understand you because they work and live alongside you every day.

Since 2000, Office Angels® has been restoring joy to the life of small business owners, enabling them to focus on what they do best. At the same time, we honor and support at-home experts who wish to continue working on an as-needed basis. Not a temp firm or a placement service, Office Angels matches a business owner’s support needs with Angels who have the talent and experience necessary to handle work that is essential to creating and maintaining a successful small business. Need help with administrative tasks, bookkeeping, marketing, presentations, workshops, speaking engagements, and more? Visit us at https://officeangels.us/.

Please Don’t Look in the Closet

January 30, 2023 by John Ray

closet

Please Don’t Look in the Closet

To be effective in your professional services practice, it’s vital to understand what’s in the “closet” for each of your clients and prospects, and to offer a response free of judgment.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. Have you ever been a guest in someone’s home maybe for a holiday party and asked for the location of the bathroom? Has the response included not only the directions, but a “just don’t look in the closet” response with a chuckle? Well, what your host is thinking at that moment might be a bit more frantic. Please, please, whatever you do, please don’t open that closet door.

John Ray: [00:00:29] Professional services providers, prospects, and clients invariably have a messy closet, if you will. That’s my term for what’s underneath, what the world doesn’t see. That’s particularly true for do it yourselfers that are coming in from out of the cold. It could be they’ve been practicing law without a license, using Google to produce legal agreements, for example. Or that their accounting system of choice involves a Nike shoe box. For coaches, the problem is particularly acute, because getting into the closet, that mess of emotional and mindset baggage a client has been carrying around is the whole point of coaching.

John Ray: [00:01:14] To be effective in your practice, it’s vital to understand where the closets of your clients and prospects are located, and to know what those closets contain. As you engage with a prospect, their closets, if you will, are your competitors. That prospect sitting in front of you has deliberately put themselves in an emotionally vulnerable position. It might have taken them years, literally, to get over the embarrassment and shame they’re feeling such that they are willing to engage an outside provider. The only reason they’ve called you is that the pain emanating from the closet is so bad that they just can’t take it anymore.

John Ray: [00:01:59] Part of your trust equation with that prospect and even after that prospect becomes a client involves giving them comfort that you’re not going to judge. And that no matter how disordered the closet may be, you’ve seen it so many times that it’s not a big deal at all. And these closet exist for our clients, even after they become clients, because they don’t share everything the moment they hire us. There are some things that they just don’t want to get into.

John Ray: [00:02:29] It’s something like what my primary care doctor once told me during an examination. He said, “I’ve seen so many versions of what you’ve got everyday so don’t worry.” What he actually said was a bit more colorful and funny and, therefore, helped me relax. It was a marked contrast with some doctors I visited who acted like they were working on a cadaver. Further, it’s quite likely that the prospect became your client without all the closet doors being opened.

John Ray: [00:03:02] If that client feels safe to share and isn’t worried about judgement, then as the engagement proceeds, they’ll share. And you’ll have the ability to serve them much more effectively, which means deliver more value than you would have otherwise. Our jobs as services professionals is to allow our clients to breathe, relax, and not worry about judgment. If we’re successful in this regard, we’re delivering priceless value.

John Ray: [00:03:33] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you go to pricevaluejourney.com, you can find two things. One is the show archive of this series, as well as a link to get details on a book I have coming out in 2023, The Price Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using The Generosity Mindset. If you’d like to send me an email, please feel free to do so, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Employer Privacy Laws and What You Need to Know in 2023

January 27, 2023 by John Ray

Employer Privacy Laws and What You Need to Know in 2023

Employer Privacy Laws and What You Need to Know in 2023 (Advisory Insights Podcast, Episode 28)

On this episode of Advisory Insights, Stuart Oberman of Oberman Law Firm discussed how new employer privacy laws in New York and California are restricting the use of artificial intelligence and personal data. Stuart advises companies who are using this technology to hire a law firm with experience in this area to help them navigate the new laws and trends.

Advisory Insights is presented by Oberman Law Firm and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®. The series can be found on all the major podcast apps. You can find the complete show archive here.

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:01] Broadcasting from the studios of Business RadioX, it’s time for Advisory Insights. Brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, serving clients nationwide with tailored service and exceptional results. Now, here’s your host.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:20] Hello everyone, and welcome to Advisory Insights Podcast. Stuart Oberman here, your host. Well, I want to talk about as we go quickly in 2023, we’ve got two states that are really on the forefront of a lot of issues. And I want to talk about our topic for today, employer privacy laws, what you need to know in 2023.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:45] So, there’s been a big, big push on two ends of the world, New York and California. And we’re seeing a lot of activity between those two states. But I want to cover just a couple of things as employers and as employees.

Stuart Oberman: [00:00:59] So, as an employer, you have to know what’s going on in those two states, because, I always say, what starts west goes east, what starts up north goes south. So, I want to take a look at, really, what things are going on in those two states. So, we’ve seen a lot of activity of new legislation being enacted, which extends to employers with applicants or workers who reside in New York City or California. So, those are wide ranging areas.

Stuart Oberman: [00:01:36] So, example, the new laws in New York and California regulate the use of artificial intelligence. It has gotten to that yet. For once I think the law has sort of caught up to technology. And, also, they restrict the personal data that goes into effect January 1, 2023.

Stuart Oberman: [00:02:00] So, what does that mean? Artificial intelligence, that means you’ve got to be extremely careful – in plain English – what data you synthesize into your usage, and that includes personal data too. So, example, I want to go a little bit deeper into New York. So, in New York, Local Law 144 – again, I don’t want to get too deep, but I just want to mention this – regulates how companies can use automated employment decision tools.

Stuart Oberman: [00:02:35] Welcome to software, welcome to artificial intelligence, which, essentially, regulates bias audits on the basis of the data that is accumulated by the employer. Folks, that’s deep stuff. That is deep stuff. So then, you got to figure out, one, what data do you receive. Two, what’s personal data, how do you get it. Three, what do you consider artificial intelligence.

Stuart Oberman: [00:03:06] Again, I think the law stepped a little bit ahead of technology without really defining what that is. Because artificial intelligence from the employment standpoint is extremely, extremely new, if you will.

Stuart Oberman: [00:03:20] So, I want to jump into the California legislation. Again, you know, California has some complex laws that are very, very restrictive to California. But what we see is, if you take a look at California and New York, a lot of the laws that are implemented have a piece of that pie from New York or California.

Stuart Oberman: [00:03:44] So, I want to take a look at California’s Consumer Privacy Act of 2018 as it was and has been amended by the California Property Privacy Rights Act, which expands the data privacy laws to cover employees and applicants, also independent contractors and operations between businesses. Folks, let me repeat that. It expands into data privacy laws that cover employees, job applicants, independent contractors, and operations between businesses.

Stuart Oberman: [00:04:32] Now, there are a million things to look at, but, again, I want to keep it very, very simple. So, what we have is we have companies that are using this particular industry knowledge. But each employer has to figure out best practices, especially if you are a national company and you have workers in California, you have workers in New York.

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:01] How do you use the company information where you have data maps to figure out information? Or how do you use it to figure out what’s used, what’s shared? How do you figure out how to handle requests from someone in-house or third party regarding your data that you’ve accumulated? What are your fulfillment obligations and requests as far as human resources go, as far as legal departments go? What are your policies and procedures on that? Do you understand how much data you accumulate? What do you do with it? How do you distribute it? Again, and a question I have, does anyone really know what a bias audit is? How do you define what a bias audit is, which is the basis for these regulatory matters?

Stuart Oberman: [00:05:56] So, here’s what I would do. If you have this technology and you’re utilizing this technology – now, I’m not talking about going on to Google and loading information. This is very specific information – I would strongly recommend, strongly recommend, that companies hire a law firm with explicit, explicit experience in this area. Work together, what tools you’re using, what tools are identified, what data you’re accumulating, what data you’re giving out, what laws are taking effect, how they affect data users to privacy, and what’s the trend, you’ve got to be ahead of the trend.

Stuart Oberman: [00:06:39] So, if something starts in California and New York, you’ve got to be ahead of that. You’ve got to look at what’s coming, because, again, what starts west goes east, what starts north goes south. So, again, look at what you’re collecting. Make decisions on your automated employment practices. Folks, this is an ongoing area. Again, I think the law is a little bit ahead of the data on how to utilize this. So, that’ll just give us one more topic to talk about as we move into 2023 and beyond, I will assure you.

Stuart Oberman: [00:07:16] Folks, thanks for joining us. Advisory Insights, Stuart Oberman here. If you have any questions, please feel free to give us a call, 770-886-2400, or email, stuart, S-T-U-A-R-T, @obermanlaw.com. Folks, have a fantastic day and thanks for joining us.

Outro: [00:07:37] Thank you for joining us on Advisory Insights. This show is brought to you by Oberman Law Firm, a business-centric law firm representing local, regional, and national clients in a wide range of practice areas, including healthcare, mergers and acquisitions, corporate transactions and regulatory compliance.

About Advisory Insights Podcast

Presented by Oberman Law Firm, Advisory Insights Podcast covers legal, business, HR, and other topics of vital concern to healthcare practices and other business owners. This show series can be found here as well as on all the major podcast apps.

Stuart Oberman, Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm

Stuart Oberman is the founder and President of Oberman Law Firm. Mr. Oberman graduated from Urbana University and received his law degree from John Marshall Law School. Mr. Oberman has been practicing law for over 25 years, and before going into private practice, Mr. Oberman was in-house counsel for a Fortune 500 Company. Mr. Oberman is widely regarded as the go-to attorney in the area of Dental Law, which includes DSO formation, corporate business structures, mergers and acquisitions, regulatory compliance, advertising regulations, HIPAA, Compliance, and employment law regulations that affect dental practices.

In addition, Mr. Oberman’s expertise in the healthcare industry includes advising clients in the complex regulatory landscape as it relates to telehealth and telemedicine, including compliance of corporate structures, third-party reimbursement, contract negotiations, technology, health care fraud, and abuse law (Anti-Kickback Statute and the State Law), professional liability risk management, federal and state regulations.

As the long-term care industry evolves, Mr. Oberman has the knowledge and experience to guide clients in the long-term care sector with respect to corporate and regulatory matters, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities (CCRCs). In addition, Mr. Oberman’s practice also focuses on health care facility acquisitions and other changes of ownership, as well as related licensure and Medicare/Medicaid certification matters, CCRC registrations, long-term care/skilled nursing facility management, operating agreements, assisted living licensure matters, and health care joint ventures.

In addition to his expertise in the health care industry, Mr. Oberman has a nationwide practice that focuses on all facets of contractual disputes, including corporate governance, fiduciary duty, trade secrets, unfair competition, covenants not to compete, trademark and copyright infringement, fraud, and deceptive trade practices, and other business-related matters. Mr. Oberman also represents clients throughout the United States in a wide range of practice areas, including mergers & acquisitions, partnership agreements, commercial real estate, entity formation, employment law, commercial leasing, intellectual property, and HIPAA/OSHA compliance.

Mr. Oberman is a national lecturer and has published articles in the U.S. and Canada.

LinkedIn

Oberman Law Firm

Oberman Law Firm has a long history of civic service, noted national, regional, and local clients, and stands among the Southeast’s eminent and fast-growing full-service law firms. Oberman Law Firm’s areas of practice include Business Planning, Commercial & Technology Transactions, Corporate, Employment & Labor, Estate Planning, Health Care, Intellectual Property, Litigation, Privacy & Data Security, and Real Estate.

By meeting their client’s goals and becoming a trusted partner and advocate for our clients, their attorneys are recognized as legal go-getters who provide value-added service. Their attorneys understand that in a rapidly changing legal market, clients have new expectations, constantly evolving choices, and operate in an environment of heightened reputational and commercial risk.

Oberman Law Firm’s strength is its ability to solve complex legal problems by collaborating across borders and practice areas.

Connect with Oberman Law Firm:

Company website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Selling a Digital Kidney

January 27, 2023 by John Ray

Selling a Digital Kidney

Selling a Digital Kidney

Pricing an online coaching session–or anything else, for that matter–can turn into the equivalent of selling a digital kidney when that pricing exudes whiffs of desperation. Always remember that prices can act as marketing signals.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] Hello. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. Some time ago, I noticed a solopreneur services provider offering access to their expertise in a live online session. Given the value of what they claim to offer in this session, from my perspective anyway, I would have expected a three-figure price easily. The price, it was $99. It got worse, though. For a limited time, the offer claimed, seats were available for half that price. Well, my perception of the value they were offering collapsed completely.

John Ray: [00:00:40] Why is that? Well, price is an indicator of value in the minds of buyers, particularly in the absence of any other marketing signal. That price can signal quality or is, as in this case, mediocrity. We’ve all made some version of this mistake. I sure have, anyway, early on in my career. We think that cutting prices attracts buyers. When, in fact, it often repels them. When the gap between price and what’s promised is gapingly wide, it often screams too good to be true, or there’s a catch, or something’s not right here.

John Ray: [00:01:21] Most especially if you’re a solopreneur early on in your practice, one of those something is not right signals that you must be very careful to avoid is the whiff of desperation. Looking like you badly need revenue, any revenue, just to stay alive. Even if you didn’t intend it that way, you might be signaling that you’re selling a digital kidney.

John Ray: [00:01:47] Maybe this individual was trying to attract prospects into their funnel. If so, it’s illustrative of how solopreneurs and smaller firms get tripped up by digital marketing whiz bang. When, in fact, all they need to move the needle for their business is a handful of new or deepened relationships which turn into revenue.

John Ray: [00:02:09] This person might have been better off if they’d handled the limitation a little differently. One idea is limiting the number of seats available at that super low price and holding to that limit even after it’s met. Even with that change, though, the negative signals of poor pricing remain.

John Ray: [00:02:31] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you’d like more information on this podcast, a link to our show archive, or also information on a book I have coming out in 2023 – the book is called The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using the Generosity Mindset – if you’d like information on any of the above, you can go to pricevaluejourney.com, and you’re also welcome to email me directly, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

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Winter Infections

January 26, 2023 by John Ray

Winter Infections

Winter Infections (Episode 83, To Your Health with Dr. Jim Morrow)

Host Dr. Jim Morrow covers a variety of winter infections, including the common cold, bronchitis, pneumonia, and others. He detailed where they occur in the body, advice about when to go to the doctor, sensible measures to avoid getting sick, ways to get better once you’re sick, and much more.

To Your Health is brought to you by Village Medical (formerly Morrow Family Medicine), which brings the care back to healthcare.

About Village Medical (formerly Morrow Family Medicine)

Village Medical, formerly Morrow Family Medicine, is an award-winning, state-of-the-art family practice with offices in Cumming and Milton, Georgia. The practice combines healthcare information technology with old-fashioned care to provide the type of care that many are in search of today. Two physicians, three physician assistants and two nurse practitioners are supported by a knowledgeable and friendly staff to make your visit to Village Medical one that will remind you of the way healthcare should be.  At Village Medical, we like to say we are “bringing the care back to healthcare!”  The practice has been named the “Best of Forsyth” in Family Medicine in all five years of the award, is a three-time consecutive winner of the “Best of North Atlanta” by readers of Appen Media, and the 2019 winner of “Best of Life” in North Fulton County.

Village Medical offers a comprehensive suite of primary care services including preventative care, treatment for illness and injury, and management of chronic conditions such as diabetes, congestive heart failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and kidney disease. Atlanta-area patients can learn more about the practice here.

Dr. Jim Morrow, Village Medical, and Host of To Your Health with Dr. Jim Morrow

Covid-19 misconceptionsDr. Jim Morrow is the founder of Morrow Family Medicine. He has been a trailblazer and evangelist in healthcare information technology, was named Physician IT Leader of the Year by HIMSS, a HIMSS Davies Award Winner, the Cumming-Forsyth Chamber of Commerce Steve Bloom Award Winner as Entrepreneur of the Year and he received a Phoenix Award as Community Leader of the Year from the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce.  He is married to Peggie Morrow and together they founded the Forsyth BYOT Benefit, a charity in Forsyth County to support students in need of technology and devices. They have two Goldendoodles, a gaggle of grandchildren and enjoy life on and around Lake Lanier.

Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter

The complete show archive of To Your Health with Dr. Jim Morrow addresses a wide range of health and wellness topics.

Dr. Morrow’s Show Notes

Winter Infections

What are the symptoms of the common cold?

  • Common cold symptoms may include:
    • Stuffy, runny nose
    • Scratchy, tickly throat
    • Sneezing
    • Watering eyes
    • Low-grade fever
    • Sore throat
    • Mild hacking cough
    • Achy muscles and bones
    • Headache
    • Mild fatigue
    • Chills
    • Watery discharge from nose that thickens and turns yellow or green
  • Colds usually start 2 to 3 days after the virus enters the body and symptoms last from several days to several weeks.
  • Cold symptoms may look like other medical conditions.
    • Always consult your healthcare provider for a diagnosis if your symptoms are severe.
  • A cold and the flu (influenza) are two different illnesses.
    • A cold is relatively harmless and usually clears up by itself, although sometimes it may lead to a secondary infection, such as an ear infection.
    • However, the flu can lead to complications, such as pneumonia and even death.

How is the common cold diagnosed?

  • Most common colds are diagnosed based on reported symptoms.
    • However, cold symptoms may be similar to certain bacterial infections, allergies, and other medical conditions.
    • Always consult your healthcare provider for a diagnosis if your symptoms are severe.

How is the common cold treated?

  • Currently, there is no medicine available to cure or shorten the duration of the common cold.
    • However, the following are some treatments that may help to relieve some symptoms of the cold:
      • Over-the-counter cold medicines, such as decongestants and cough medicine
      • Over-the-counter antihistamines (medicine that helps dry up nasal secretions and suppress coughing)
      • Rest
      • Increased fluid intake
      • Pain relievers for headache or fever
      • Warm, salt water gargling for sore throat
      • Petroleum jelly for raw, chapped skin around the nose and lips
  • Because colds are caused by viruses, antibiotics don’t work.
    • Antibiotics are only effective when given to treat bacterial infections.
  • Do not give aspirin to a child who has fever.
    • Aspirin, when given as treatment for viral illnesses in children, has been associated with Reye syndrome.
    • This is a potentially serious or deadly disorder in children.

What are the complications of the common cold?

  • Colds can lead to secondary infections, including bacterial, middle ear, and sinus infections that may require treatment with antibiotics.
    • If you have a cold along with high fever, sinus pain, significantly swollen glands, or a mucus-producing cough, see your healthcare provider.
    • You may need additional treatment.

Can the common cold be prevented?

  • The best way to avoid catching cold is to wash your hands often and avoid close contact with people who have colds.
    • When around people with colds, do not touch your nose or eyes, because your hands may be contaminated with the virus.
    • If you have a cold, cough and sneeze in facial tissue and dispose of the tissue promptly.
      • Then wash your hands right away.
      • Also clean surfaces with disinfectants that kill viruses can halt the spread of the common cold.
      • Research has shown that rhinoviruses may survive up to 3 hours outside of the nasal lining.

When should I call my healthcare provider?

  • If your symptoms get worse or you have new symptoms, let your healthcare provider know.
  • If your symptoms don’t improve within a few days, call your provider, as you could have another type of infection.

Key points about the common cold

  • A cold is caused by a virus that causes inflammation of the membranes that line the nose and throat.
  • The common cold is very easily spread to others.
    • It’s often spread through airborne droplets that are coughed or sneezed into the air by the sick person.
    • The droplets are then inhaled by another person.
  • Symptoms may include a stuffy, runny nose, scratchy, tickly throat, sneezing, watery eyes and a low-grade fever.
  • Treatment to reduce symptoms includes getting rest and drinking plenty of fluids.
  • Because colds are caused by viruses, treatment with antibiotics won’t work.
  • The best prevention for the common cold is frequent hand washing and avoiding close contact with people who have colds.

What is acute bronchitis?

  • Acute bronchitis is a contagious viral infection that causes inflammation of the bronchial tubes. These are the airways that carry air into your lungs. When these tubes get infected, they swell. Mucus (thick fluid) forms inside them. This narrows the airways, making it harder for you to breathe.
  • There are 2 types of bronchitis: acute and chronic. Chronic bronchitisis long-lasting and can reoccur. It usually is caused by constant irritation, such as from smoking. Acute bronchitis lasts only a short time. Most cases get better in several days, though the cough can last for several weeks.

Symptoms of acute bronchitis

  • The symptoms of acute bronchitis can include:
    • Chest congestion or tightness
    • Cough that brings up clear, yellow, or green mucus
    • Shortness of breath
    • Wheezing
    • Sore throat
    • Fever
    • Chills
    • Body aches
  • Your cough can last for several weeks or more. This happens because the bronchial tubes take a while to heal. A lasting cough may signal another problem, such as asthma or pneumonia.

What causes acute bronchitis?

  • Acute bronchitis is most often caused by a contagious virus. The same viruses that cause colds can cause acute bronchitis. First, the virus affects your nose, sinuses, and throat. Then the infection travels to the lining of the bronchial tubes. As your body fights the virus, swelling occurs and mucus is produced.
  • You can catch a virus from breathing it in or by skin contact. You are at higher risk of catching the virus if you have close contact with someone who has a cold or acute bronchitis.
  • Lesser-known causes of acute bronchitis are:
    • Bacteria or fungal infections.
    • Exposure to irritants, such as smoke, dust, or fumes. You are at greater risk if your bronchial tubes already have damage.
    • GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease), which causes heartburn. You can get acute bronchitis when stomach acid gets into the bronchial tubes.

How is acute bronchitis diagnosed?

  • Your doctor can confirm acute bronchitis. He or she will do a physical exam and review your symptoms. He or she will listen to your lungs with a stethoscope. Your doctor might order a chest X-ray to look at your lungs. This will help rule out pneumonia.

Can acute bronchitis be prevented or avoided?

  • You can help prevent acute bronchitis by staying healthy and avoiding germs. Wash your hands with soap often to kill any contagious viruses.
  • If you smoke, the best defense against acute bronchitis is to quit. Smoking damages your bronchial tubes and puts you at risk for infection. Smoking also slows down the healing process.
  • Other steps you can take to avoid acute bronchitis include:
  • Wear a mask over your nose and mouth when using lung irritants. These could include paint, paint remover, or varnish.
  • Get a flu shot every year.
  • Ask your doctor if you should get a pneumonia shot, especially if you are over age 60.

Acute bronchitis treatment

  • Most cases of acute bronchitis are caused by a virus. This means that antibiotics won’t help. The infection needs to run its course. It almost always goes away on its own. Home treatment focuses on easing the symptoms:
    • Drink fluids but avoid caffeine and alcohol.
    • Get plenty of rest.
    • Take over-the-counter pain relievers to reduce inflammation, ease pain, and lower your fever. These could include acetaminophen (1 brand name: Tylenol) or ibuprofen (1 brand name: Advil). Never give aspirin to a child. It has been linked to Reye syndrome, which can affect the liver and brain.
    • Increase the humidity in your home or use a humidifier.
    • There are some over-the-counter cough medicines that help break up or loosen mucus. Look for the word “guaifenesin” on the label or ask your pharmacist for a suggestion.
  • Do not hold in a cough that brings up mucus. This type of cough helps clear mucus from your bronchial tubes. If you smoke, you should quit. It will help your bronchial tubes heal faster.
  • Some people who have acute bronchitis need inhaled medicine. You might need this if you are wheezing. It can help open your bronchial tubes and clear out mucus. You usually take it with an inhaler. An inhaler sprays medicine right into your bronchial tubes. Your doctor will decide if this treatment is right for you.
  • If your doctor thinks bacteria have caused your acute bronchitis, he or she may give you antibiotics.

Living with acute bronchitis

  • Most cases of acute bronchitis go away on their own in 7 to 10 days. You should call your doctor if:
  • You continue to wheeze and cough for more than 2 weeks, especially at night when you lie down or when you are active.
  • You continue to cough for more than 2 weeks and have a bad-tasting fluid come up into your mouth. This may mean you have GERD. This is a condition in which stomach acid gets into your esophagus.
  • Your cough produces blood, you feel weak, you have an ongoing high fever, and you are short of breath. These symptoms may mean you have pneumonia.
  • The risk of developing complications from acute bronchitis, such as pneumonia, is greater in some people. These include:
    • Young children
    • The elderly
    • People who have asthma
    • People who have other health issues (such as canceror diabetes)
    • People who haven’t gotten vaccines for flu, pneumonia, or whooping cough

What is pneumonia?

  • Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs. It causes the air sacs (alveoli) of the lungs to get inflamed (irritated and swollen). They may fill up with fluid or pus. This causes a variety of symptoms, which range from mild to severe. Pneumonia is usually caused by bacteria or a virus. It also can be caused by fungi or irritants that you breathe into your lungs. How serious pneumonia is depends on many factors. These include what caused the pneumonia, your age, and your overall health.

Symptoms of pneumonia

  • The symptoms of pneumonia can range from mild to severe. This depends on your risk factors and the type of pneumonia you have. Common symptoms are similar to the symptoms caused by a cold or the flu. They include:
    • cough
    • fever
    • bringing up mucus when you cough
    • difficulty breathing
    • chills
    • chest pain
  • You may also sweat, have a headache, and feel very tired. Some people also experience nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.
  • If any of these symptoms are severe, call your family doctor. You should also call your doctor if you suddenly start getting worse after having a cold or the flu.

What is walking pneumonia?

  • Walking pneumonia is a mild case of pneumonia. It is often caused by a virus or the mycoplasma pneumoniae bacteria. When you have walking pneumonia, your symptoms may not be as severe or last as long as someone who has a more serious case of pneumonia. You probably won’t need bed rest or to stay in the hospital when you have walking pneumonia.

What causes pneumonia?

  • Bacteria: They are the most common cause of pneumonia in adults. They can cause pneumonia on their own, or after you’ve had a cold or the flu. Bacterial pneumonia usually only affects one area of a lung.
  • Any virus that affects the respiratory tract can cause pneumonia. This includes the flu virus and the virus that causes the common cold. In children under 1 year old, the respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) is the most common cause. Viral pneumonia tends to be mild. It often gets better on its own in 1 to 3 weeks.
  • Some fungal infections can lead to pneumonia, especially in people with weakened immune systems. There are also some fungi that occur in the soil in certain parts of the United States that can lead to pneumonia.
  • You can also get pneumonia through aspiration. This is when you inhale particles into your lungs. These could be food, saliva, liquids, or vomit. It occurs most often after vomiting, and you are not strong enough to cough the particles out. The particles cause irritation, swelling and can get infected. This causes pneumonia.

How is pneumonia diagnosed?

  • Pneumonia can sometimes be hard to diagnose because the symptoms are the same as for a bad cold or flu. If you think it could be pneumonia, you should see your doctor. Your doctor may diagnose pneumonia based on your medical history and the results from a physical exam. He or she will listen to your lungs with a stethoscope. Your doctor may also do some tests, such as a chest X-ray or a blood test. A chest X-ray can show your doctor if you have pneumonia and how widespread the infection is. Blood and mucus tests can help your doctor tell whether bacteria, a virus, or a fungal organism is causing your pneumonia.

Can pneumonia be prevented or avoided?

  • There are many factors that can raise your risk for developing pneumonia. These include:
    • Your age.People older than 65 are at increased risk because the immune system becomes less able to fight off infection as you age. Infants age 2 or younger are also at increased risk because their immune systems haven’t fully developed yet.
    • Your environment.Regularly breathing in dust, chemicals, air pollution, or toxic fumes can damage your lungs. This makes your lungs more vulnerable to infection.
    • Your lifestyle.Habits such as smoking cigarettes or abusing alcohol can increase your risk. Smoking damages the lungs, while alcohol interferes with how your body fights infection.
    • Your immune system.If your immune system is weakened, it’s easier for you to get pneumonia because your body can’t fight off the infection. This could include people who have HIV/AIDS, have had an organ transplant, are receiving chemotherapy, or have long-term steroid use.
    • If you are hospitalized, especially in an ICU.Being in the ICU (intensive care unit) raises your risk of pneumonia. Your risk increases if you are using a ventilator to help you breathe. Ventilators make it hard for you to cough and can trap germs that cause infection in your lungs.
    • If you have recently had major surgery or a serious injury.Recovering from major surgery or injury can make it difficult for you to cough. This is the body’s quickest defense for getting particles out of the lungs. Recovery also typically requires a lot of bed rest. Lying down on your back for an extended period of time can allow fluid or mucus to gather in your lungs. This gives bacteria a place to grow.
  • People who have any of the following conditions are also at increased risk:
    • chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
    • asthma
    • heart disease
    • emphysema
    • diabetes
    • sickle cell disease
  • You can help prevent pneumonia by doing the following:
    • Get the flu vaccine each year.People can develop bacterial pneumonia after a case of the flu. You can reduce this risk by getting the yearly flu shot.
    • Get the pneumococcal vaccine.This helps prevent pneumonia caused by pneumococcal bacteria.
    • Practice good hygiene.Wash your hands frequently with soap and water or an alcohol-based hand sanitizer.
    • Don’t smoke.Smoking damages your lungs and makes it harder for your body to defend itself from germs and disease. If you smoke, talk to your family doctor about quitting as soon as possible.
    • Practice a healthy lifestyle.Eat a balanced diet full of fruits and vegetables. Exercise regularly. Get plenty of sleep. These things help your immune system stay strong.
    • Avoid sick people.Being around people who are sick increases your risk of catching what they have.

Is there a vaccine for pneumonia?

  • There isn’t a vaccine for all types of pneumonia, but 2 vaccines are available. These help prevent pneumonia caused by pneumococcal bacteria. The first is recommended for all children younger than 5 years of age. The second is recommended for anyone age 2 or older who is at increased risk for pneumonia. Getting the pneumonia vaccine is especially important if you:
    • Are 65 years of age or older.
    • Have certain chronic conditions, such as asthma, lung disease, diabetes, heart disease, sickle cell disease, or cirrhosis.
    • Have a weakened immune system because of HIV/AIDS, kidney failure, a damaged or removed spleen, a recent organ transplant, or receiving chemotherapy.
    • Have cochlear implants (an electronic device that helps you hear).
  • The pneumococcal vaccines can’t prevent all cases of pneumonia. But they can make it less likely that people who are at risk will experience the severe, and possibly life-threatening, complications of pneumonia.

Pneumonia treatment

  • Treatment for pneumonia depends on several factors. These include what caused your pneumonia, how severe your symptoms are, how healthy you are overall, and your age.
  • For bacterial pneumonia, your doctor will probably prescribe antibiotics. Most of your symptoms should improve within a few days. A cough can last for several weeks. Be sure to follow your doctor’s directions carefully. Take all the antibiotic medicine that your doctor prescribes. If you don’t, some bacteria may stay in your body. This can cause your pneumonia to come back. It can also increase your risk of antibiotic resistance.
  • Antibiotics don’t work to treat viral infections. If you have viral pneumonia, your doctor will likely talk to you about ways to treat your symptoms. Over-the-counter (OTC) medicines are available to lower fever, relieve pain, and ease your cough. However, some coughing is okay because it can help clear your lungs. Be sure to talk to your doctor before you take a cough suppressant.
  • If a fungus is causing your pneumonia, your doctor may prescribe an antifungal medicine.
  • If your case of pneumonia is severe, you may need to be hospitalized. If you are experiencing shortness of breath, you may be given oxygen to help your breathing. You might also receive antibiotics intravenously (through an IV). People who have weakened immune systems, heart disease or lung conditions, and people who were already very sick before developing pneumonia are most likely to be hospitalized. Babies, young children, and adults who are 65 years of age and older are also at increased risk.

What can I do at home to feel better?

  • In addition to taking any antibiotics and/or medicine your doctor prescribes, you should also:
    • Get lots of rest.Rest will help your body fight the infection.
    • Drink plenty of fluids.Fluids will keep you hydrated. They can help loosen the mucus in your lungs. Try water, warm tea, and clear soups.
    • Stop smoking if you smoke and avoid secondhand smoke.Smoke can make your symptoms worse. Smoking also increases your risk of developing pneumonia and other lung problems in the future. You should also avoid lit fireplaces or other areas where the air may not be clean.
    • Stay home from school or work until your symptoms go away.This usually means waiting until your fever breaks and you aren’t coughing up mucus. Ask your doctor when it’s okay for you to return to school or work.
    • Use a cool-mist humidifier or take a warm bath.This will help clear your lungs and make it easier for you to breathe.

Living with pneumonia

  • Your doctor may schedule a follow-up appointment after he or she diagnoses you with pneumonia. At this visit, he or she might take another chest X-ray to make sure the pneumonia infection is clearing up. Keep in mind that chest X-rays can take months to return to normal. However, if your symptoms are not improving, your doctor may decide to try another form of treatment.
  • Although you may be feeling better, it’s important to keep your follow-up appointment. The infection can still be in your lungs even if you’re no longer experiencing symptoms.

When should I see my doctor?

  • Pneumonia can be life-threatening if left untreated, especially for certain at-risk people. You should call your doctor if you have a cough that won’t go away, shortness of breath, chest pain, or a fever. You should also call your doctor if you suddenly begin to feel worse after having a cold or the flu.

What is whooping cough?

  • Whooping cough is a respiratory infection. It is also known as pertussis. Whooping cough is highly contagious and is most harmful to babies.

    Symptoms of whooping cough

  • Whooping cough begins like a cold. Symptoms can start a few days to several weeks after exposure. Early symptoms last 1 to 2 weeks and include:
    • Low fever
    • Mild cough
    • Runny nose
    • Dry or sore throat
    • Apnea (a pause in breathing or shallow breathing, often during sleep)
    • Your cough can get worse over time. Late-stage symptoms include:
    • Coughing fits that end in a “whooping” sound
    • Bursts of coughing that last longer
    • Vomiting after coughing
    • Getting red or blue in the face from coughing
    • Feeling exhausted after coughing
    • Increased coughing at night
    • Worsened apnea
  • Symptoms vary in babies and children, teenagers, and adults. For instance, babies cough less and are more likely to have apnea and turn blue. If you received the vaccine, symptoms will be milder and won’t last as long.

What causes whooping cough?

  • Whooping cough is caused by certain germs, or bacteria. You can get whooping cough if you breathe in these bacteria. It spreads between people when an infected person coughs or sneezes. You also can get it by touching an infected person or surface.

How is whooping cough diagnosed?

  • You should see your doctor if you or someone around you might have whooping cough. Your doctor will review your symptoms and listen to your cough. There are several tests to confirm whooping cough. Your doctor can swab inside your nose and/or throat. A lab will check the swab for whooping cough bacteria. Your doctor also may want to get a blood sample or take a chest X-ray.

Can whooping cough be prevented or avoided?

  • Vaccination is the best way to prevent whooping cough. The pertussis vaccine (DTaP, Tdap) is part of the recommended vaccine schedule for children and adults. Adults should get a pertussis booster every 5-10 years. Pregnant women and those in close contact with babies should be vaccinated. Talk to your doctor to make sure you and your family’s vaccinations are up to date.

Whooping cough treatment

  • Your doctor will most likely prescribe antibiotics. These will relieve your symptoms and kill the bacteria so you aren’t contagious. Infants and babies may need to stay in the hospital. If you have whooping cough, you should avoid contact with others, especially babies.

Living with whooping cough

  • Whooping cough can last anywhere from 1 to 6 weeks. You may continue to cough on and off, even with medicine. Over-the-counter medicines for coughing do not help with whooping cough. You should rest and drink fluids to prevent dehydration. You can try using a cool-mist humidifier or taking a warm bath or shower. These can help clear your lungs and make it easier to breathe. Avoid smoking and areas where the air is not clean. You may need to stay home from work or school. Talk to your doctor about when you can return to your regular schedule.

 

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Alicia Johnson Program Coordinator, Georgia SBDC

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