Eric M. Bailey, Bailey Strategic Innovation Group
Eric M. Bailey is the bestselling author of The Cure for Stupidity: Using Brain Science to Explain Irrational Behavior and President of Bailey Strategic Innovation Group, one of the fastest-growing human communication consulting firms in the United States. Eric has a diverse set of experiences that includes helping NFL All-Pro Larry Fitzgerald pet a rhinoceros, doing barrel rolls in an F-16, and chatting with LL Cool J on the campus of Harvard University. Eric is the creator of the Principles of Human Understanding™, a leadership and communication methodology based in brain science and psychology. Eric’s unique style blends fact and emotion and finds ways to appeal to the analytical thinkers, the emotional feelers, and everyone in between. Eric has a unique ability to communicate seemingly complex concepts in practical, easy-to-comprehend ways, aiding in self-awareness and knowledge retention.
Eric has been featured on CNN, Huffington Post, Forbes, the Like a Real Boss Podcast and has helped leaders and teams across the world see common problems from new and different perspectives. Eric works with Google Inc, the US Air Force, Los Angeles County, the City of St. Louis, MO, Phoenix Police Department and many more. Eric also runs a YouTube series of 2-minute executive lessons called The Walking Meeting (www.thewalkingmeeting.com). Eric has a Master’s degree in Leadership and Organizational Development from Saint Louis University and is a lifetime learner of human and organizational behavior. When not working or researching, you can find Eric and his wife Jamie racing on their road bikes, being cheered on by their three children.
This transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix
Speaker1: [00:00:08] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for workplace wisdom sharing, insight, perspective and best practices for creating the planet’s best workplaces. Now here’s your host.
Speaker2: [00:00:31] Welcome to Workplace Wisdom Stone Payton here with you this afternoon, and gang, you are in for a real treat, please join me in welcoming to the broadcast with Bailey Strategic Innovation Group. The man himself, Mr. Eric Bailly. How are you, man?
Speaker3: [00:00:48] I’m doing well. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker2: [00:00:50] Oh man, we’ve really been looking forward to getting you on the show. No stranger. Incidentally, guys to the Business RadioX microphone, we’ve had the pleasure of having Mr. Bailey in our Phenix studio. So he is. This is what do you call it at the end of the concert when the people won’t go home this encore man or more and more and more? But no, we want. We want to talk to you about a variety of things, one of which it’s my understanding that you’re quite accomplished. And if it not, if not, at least a tremendous student of this, this whole body of work around around brain science. Can can you talk to us a little bit about that and how maybe it relates to diversity and bias and inclusion and privilege? And, you know, speak to that a little bit, if you would.
Speaker3: [00:01:39] You got it. So I am. I call myself a self-proclaimed geek of brain science and and brain science isn’t really a science. It’s really a collection of many different scientific topics. So you’ve got neuroscience and psychology and linguistics and anthropology. So all of that kind of comes together is kind of the science of the brain. And I found it very fascinating to not just understand, like to pay attention to what people are doing, but to start to understand why people do what they do or why people react the way that they do. And over the last decade or so, I’ve really started to read a lot of psychology, research, neuroscience, research, anthropology, linguistics, all that, all that research and realize that we can start to explain why you can be neighbors with somebody for 30 years, and then they put the wrong political sign in their front yard. And now you can’t trust them, right? So we see these things happening over and over again and why we separate from each other, why we get frustrated at each other. And, you know, in a more more specifically recently in the conversation of diversity and why why does why does talking about even the word bias? Why is that send some people into really highly emotional state and they want to shut down the conversation and understanding the brain science? This it actually allows me to engage with folks on a level of dialog rather than kind of preaching at people or telling people what they should be thinking.
Speaker2: [00:03:06] So, so knowing what you have come to learn about brain science, would you approach a conversation differently based on some early responses you got from me in that conversation? Or would you approach it differently because you’ve learned something about my background? Like, exactly how do you leverage this thing called brain science to to to impact the way you conduct these conversations?
Speaker3: [00:03:30] Yeah. So I’ve developed a set of principles called the Principles for Human Understanding. And essentially, they’re 20 to brain science principles that help us understand each other. And so, you know, if let’s say that we’re in some kind of, you know, heated debate about something, and I think it should be done one way and you think it should be done another way or I think this is right, you think it’s wrong and you know how your blood pressure starts to rise, your heart starts to pound, you start to get sweaty, like those are all signals that your body is actually going into defense mode, right? Like back when we were in cavemen and cave women running away from saber tooth tigers per say like, we have this reaction to protect ourselves. And interestingly, we have the same physiological reaction when we’re in those kinds of debates. And when you can start to recognize those signs in yourself, you can you can realize that your frontal lobe where your higher level thinking is your executive function is has less resources, less blood oxygen available there and you’re not going to you’re not going to be at your best. You’re going to act more and more animalistic than you are human. And so you can recognize those, take a couple of breaths and calm down and then engage. One of the things that we realize is that if you’re fighting me about something, I’m fighting you about something. There’s actually a benefit to me letting go of my thoughts, letting go of trying to win and trying to understand why you think you’re your position, not necessarily trying to change my idea, but to understand the humanity or the context or your history that got you to that belief and what that does, it will connect us in a place of humanity. And from that point, we can have really cool dialog.
Speaker2: [00:05:15] Now you’re using these principles, you are you are using this and applying it to to work with organizations, brands, associations on topics like diversity and inclusion. Is that so how does this? How does this plug into your work around diversity, equity, inclusion, all those things?
Speaker3: [00:05:37] Yeah, great question. You know, interesting. It’s actually there’s many layers to it. So so at the first layer, there’s a colleague of mine out of Harvard. His name is Frank Dobbins, and he’s written a series of articles and studies about why, you know, quote unquote, diversity training doesn’t work. And the main reason is because people will associate a quote unquote diversity training with some problems. So if you’re telling me I have to go to diversity training, you’re telling me that I’m racist or sexist or a just or whatever, some kind of some kind of you’re accusing me of being a bad person. And so people will actually walk into these sessions with with like they’re already on the defense, right? They already resent you for sending them to training. And so what we do is at the very beginning, we clear all of that out. Wait, we’re not here to tell you you’re wrong and all of these words that you think mean that you’re a bad person. They actually don’t mean that we kind of redefine the word bias. We redefine systemic discrimination. We redefine all of these things so that people can truly understand what they mean. And so you know how we understand brain science. We know when people are getting defensive, they’re not going to be open to listening. And so how can you make them feel safer in dialog? How can you make them feel safer in conversation? And then the other layer of it is all of these principles of brain science are fundamental communication principles. And so you can understand when someone gets frustrated they’re going to behave in this way. When someone feels hurt, they’re going to behave in these ways. And so you can recognize when they’re happening and say, Oh, this is not my intention here of this communication. Let me pause, apologize, empathize and restart. And when you when you kind of layer it all together, you end up having really meaningful and powerful conversations.
Speaker2: [00:07:28] All right, so let’s back up a little bit and think through this, there’s this fundamental assertion of principle in place here. And I want to test it with you and get your take on this, that organizations that are more diverse or at least identify as more diverse that they really are. That equips them to to outperform their competitors. Is that accurate? Is that what people think? And is that is that the why is that why you’re doing this work?
Speaker3: [00:07:59] It’s not necessarily the why that is a result that we see. So we see that organizations that are that have better representation across many different categories, descriptor categories, you find that people feel that they belong. And I don’t know if you know that right now, kind of across North America, people in the workplace are reporting being more lonely than they ever have been. Now this is this is research that comes from before the pandemic, before people were actually socially isolating, but being more more alone feeling identifying feelings of loneliness. And so the reason that’s happening is because we aren’t engaging with each other as much as we used to. In conversation, we’re spending more time staring at our devices. We’re kind of separating ideologically, you know, and we’re working at our cubicles. And then when we go home, when we’re supposed to engage with people, we open up our laptops or our iPads, and we focus on those things as well. And so when you when you really start to think about how belonging will impact someone’s work, work output, well, if I feel like I belong, I’m less worried about not belonging. And so I’m more focused on getting the work done.
Speaker3: [00:09:12] I need to get done if I feel like I’m connected better with my 10 closest peers that I’m more likely to be collaborative. And if I run into some problem, I’ve got nine other people that I know can help me solve the problem. Unfortunately, a lot of times people are struggling through problems on their own because they’re too embarrassed to ask for help. And when that happens, I mean, they’ll eventually get to some solution, but may not be the best solution. It may take 10 times as long to get there. And so, you know, all the data that shows that the organizations that are that are diverse among a lot of different categories, you find that there’s higher levels of belonging. You find that people the the turnover rates are lower. The productivity rates are higher. The downtime is lower. The recovery from from traumatic issues like financial issues, they recover faster. And so I don’t think that that is the why I do the work that I do, but it is a really powerful motivator for other organizations to step into the work as well.
Speaker2: [00:10:17] But I’m pretty sure already after a couple of minutes into this conversation that that I don’t have the patience or the I.Q. points to do the work you’re describing. But but it sounds like it must be incredibly rewarding work. I mean, I can just I can hear it in your voice. I can almost see it in your eyes, even though this is a virtual interview. Do you really enjoy this work, don’t you?
Speaker3: [00:10:38] I absolutely do, and I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, I call myself a recovering HR person. I used to work in H.R. for a few years and and I know what it’s like to sit through, you know, mandatory trainings and whatever. And it’s awful. It’s, you know, it’s life sucking. And and now I get to do these. These like intentionally designed workshops and trainings and and organizations with organizations around the country or around North America. And what I find is that people who typically don’t engage in these kinds of conversations, they end up coming to me afterwards and say, I have never once felt comfortable in a conversation like this, and I felt you welcomed me in and I learned so much and I can’t wait to do more. And that’s that’s what lights me up. It’s not the person that has gone to one hundred diversity sessions and they’re like, Oh great, I learned something new. I do like giving people new stuff, but I like welcoming more people into the conversation because if we’re, you know, we’re talking about inclusion, well, wouldn’t it be great if everyone felt included in the conversation about inclusion? And every, every, every time I do this, I get at least one email from somebody, you know, sometimes it’s a couple of paragraphs. Sometimes one person, you know, is a three page email, and she said, You know, thank you. Here are some issues I’ve always run into, and you dismantled all of them, and I’m seeing the world differently now. Thank you. And that’s that’s what speaks to me. If I can help someone take one step forward, if I can help an organization, take one step forward, then that I’m definitely doing doing my best work.
Speaker2: [00:12:19] So I got to ask how how does the whole sales and marketing thing work for a firm like yours? Is this topic just so central right now? And you’ve been at it a while and your phone is ringing? Or even now? Do you still have to go out and try to or someone on your team go shake the bushes a little bit and say, Hey, this is important work and we do it and we’d like to talk to you about doing it with you. Yeah, how does that work?
Speaker3: [00:12:45] Well, interestingly, I’m very I’m very privileged, very blessed to not have to to to run out and ask my, I think, the response that I’ve gotten, you know, I started my company exactly five years ago, six, six years ago, this this week, but I started my company and my work, my style, my delivery. My impact is unique enough. Like, people have never seen anything like this that as soon as they’re done, if they see me at some conference speaking or running, some workshops speaking, they run out and tell other people about it like, you have to talk to this guy. And so, so the entire span of my business, I’ve really just grown organically through referrals and people say, I need you to speak at this conference and I’m happy to do it and oftentimes they’ll pay me to do that. And so then I go out and I speak, and then five people who sat in the audience then call me up and say, I want you to do this for my organization. So kind of I kind of get paid to do my marketing, which is which is a benefit. But you know, I find that the people that are referred to me by other folks who’ve maybe seen me before work for me before, they are already the kind of person that are ready to do the work. So I don’t I don’t have to filter anybody out, usually because people are already ready, ready to do the engagement with me. So I definitely think I’m very, very fortunate, but I’ve worked really hard to when I get the opportunity to be in front of people, whether it’s on a small stage or a large stage that you know, five thousand people in an auditorium or, you know, even 20 people I worked really hard to. If I get that platform, I’ve got to knock it out of the park because this is my opportunity and and, you know, fortunately, knock on wood, it’s gone well so far.
Speaker2: [00:14:37] So, so good work. Doing good work is a great sales tool, right?
Speaker3: [00:14:41] It is. It is. You know, people people say all the time like, you know, you work on your branding, work on your branding. And I’m also a former marketing guy. And before I was in HR was in marketing and I I’m a graphic designer. I know how important it is a good logo, good fonts, good kerning and spacing and colors. I know how important it is, but that’s not the brand, right? That is maybe an element of the brand like the brand is what people feel about you when you’re not telling them about you. And so if you go out and a perfect example right now, Tesla Motors, one of the fastest growing car companies in the history of the world, they’re dominating electric cars everywhere, and they they’ve put together a really good car. They don’t really have a marketing department at all. They’re not they don’t have a quote unquote branding department at all. They don’t even have a PR department. But what they’ve done is they built a really good car that people love to drive. And that is their brand. Their brand is this is a great car to drive, it’s fun. If you talk to anyone who’s ever owned a Tesla, they don’t say it like a Tesla. They say, I love my Tesla. Everyone says that. And that becomes the brand. And so I think a lot of folks spend a lot of time on the the colors and the shapes of the logos. And I think what we really should be spending time on is making the experience for our customers or our clients as good as it possibly can be. So they can’t wait to go. Tell somebody else about you.
Speaker2: [00:16:10] All right. So just between us girls here. No, I’ll cut it out if you decide you don’t want to answer it, but I got to ask, do you ever find yourself? Just you go out and you’re brilliant on the road, you know, maybe you’re worn out when you get back at your own organization and you’ve had tremendous impact and you really you’re putting a dent in the universe. You come back to your own, to your own ranch and you’re human and some of your own people because they know what you’re out there teaching and they know what it’s supposed to look out, call you out on not doing what you what you just went after her daughter. Do you ever find yourself? Maybe, you know, sometimes falling short of the of the of the mark in that regard.
Speaker3: [00:16:52] Every single day? Yes. And I think I think that’s I think that’s one of the most interesting things about about the way that I do this work is that I will never claim to be an expert at it. I literally wrote the book on this stuff. My book is called The Cure for Stupidity, right? And so like, I literally wrote the book on this, but the these principles are basic humanity. Like, we all fall victim to these every single day, and it’s not about perfection, but rather awareness. And so I give full rein to everyone on my team to call me out on my stuff. And it happens all the time, all the time. And I think, you know, when I’m on stage, I’m talking about my own failures, like the examples that I give are my own failures and people relate to that. I come in with humility and vulnerability, and I tell stories about, you know, how I, how I mispronounced a word my entire life and someone told me about it and I reacted really harshly and strongly like, you were crazy. What do you mean? I know how to speak? And and then after a while, I’m like, Oh, maybe there’s something for me to learn here, right? And I think that’s that’s exactly it is. I go out and I do this, and I do not want to put out the image that I’m perfect because I am absolutely not. And I think I think you hit the nail on the head like creating this environment where, where, where my team can say, Hey, Eric, you realize that you misspelled three words on your presentation and like, how I show up after that means a lot more than what I say. I’m on stage, right?
Speaker2: [00:18:25] Right. So, so tell us about holy shift.
Speaker3: [00:18:31] Mm hmm. So, so holy shift, that’s the make sure you enunciate all of the you and say, well, because it can lead people to to say What are you talking about? You got to edit that out. No, no holy shift. It’s it’s it’s caught up and developed to really help people engage in this conversation a different way. So the full title is Holy Shift, completely changing the conversation about diversity and discrimination and bias and privilege using brain science. And so the shift that we are making is from the way that we’ve previously thought about these concepts and into something new. One of my favorite quotes of all time is is Albert Einstein, and he said, we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Now that it’s often misquoted, you know, Einstein’s definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. He never said that. He said this and this idea is that we will oftentimes get into these patterns of behaviors and habits and then find ourselves in some trouble. And then we employ the same patterns of behaviors and the same habits that got us there to get out of trouble. And it makes no sense. We do this over and over again. And so what I’ve learned to realize is that if we can do things differently, if we can think about these things differently, if we can explore differently, we can have different results.
Speaker3: [00:19:56] And that’s really what I want to give people. So so we’re going to talk about things like racism and we’re going to talk about things like privilege. And if that makes you feel uncomfortable. Great. Pay attention to that feeling. Let’s explore why it’s uncomfortable. And I ask people, you know, I’ve probably asked twenty five thousand thirty thousand people around the country, you know, how do you feel when you hear the phrase and this is something we use a lot in the United States is phrase called white privilege. And people have this huge range of emotions. I’m going to ask that question. I feel angry. I feel shame. I feel upset. I feel like it’s a weapon. I feel like I’m an unfairly criticized because I’m white. I feel like I’ve worked hard and I’m not being acknowledged for what I’ve done. All these different things. And I’m like, I say, Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your candor. Thank you for exploring. I think you’re trusting me with that. And then what we do is we break that down. What does what does privilege even mean? Right. And so we think that privilege, you know, it sounds like, you know, a quote unquote life of privilege.
Speaker3: [00:21:01] A silver spoon in your mouth never had to work for anything chauffeured. That’s not what it means. White privilege just means that a member of a group may not have to worry about something that a member of a different group may have to worry about. And so when you think about it, like, I don’t know if you have kids, but I’ve got three kids, and my job as a parent is to give my kids privilege. Like, I don’t want them to worry about the things that I had to worry about. The goal is to give them privilege. There’s this concept that we have called the quote unquote American dream, which is, you know, essentially one generation doing better than the previous generation. Right. And and that really is all about privilege, right? A lack of worry. And so privilege isn’t a bad thing. It’s just a thing, and we can acknowledge it in such a way. And then I’m like, OK, well, if privilege is all about worry, then there are an infinite number of qualifiers we can put in front of that word. Right now we’re talking about quote unquote white privilege, but there’s also black privilege. There’s live in a municipality privilege. There’s always how about your handedness? I don’t know if you’re a right handed person, but there is privilege in being right handed and in which we explore this is, you know, I talk to my left hand and colleagues and they say, Well, I have to worry about grabbing a pair of scissors because they don’t work in my left hand.
Speaker3: [00:22:20] I have to worry about buying a baseball glove or golf clubs. I’ve got to worry about smudging ink as I write my write on a piece of paper with the pen. Like, what does that mean? I think, oh, in English we write left to right. So a right handed person, they rest their hand on the paper and their hand leads the ink as it goes down or is a left handed person. Their pen leads their hands, their smudging their ink all the time. And it’s like, I never thought about that. That is privilege. I haven’t had to worry about this thing that somebody else does. And when we get there, it’s like, Oh, privilege isn’t a bad thing, right? It’s not saying I’m a bad person because I’m right handed notes. It means that I have this opportunity for empathy for somebody that might be going through something that that I don’t, and that’s that’s the real conversation where we get to. So, so yes, very passionate about this. If you couldn’t tell.
Speaker2: [00:23:11] Well, I can tell, and you’re obviously very good at your work. I’m a middle aged white guy. I’ve always up until now, I got to tell you, you’ve reframed it for me. I have bristled with this idea of white privilege. I’m extremely blessed. I make a very comfortable living doing some, really. Will work, but it hasn’t all been a downhill skate I really did put in, you know, my 10000 hours. But you’ve reframed the term in such a way that I am. I’m going to be so much better at dinner talking about or the next time this topic comes. And in fact, rather than try to skirt around it or scoff, I might even bring it up. So man, you’re in your cube today, man.
Speaker3: [00:23:55] Well, I’m glad it’s it’s a really powerful concept because you have worked hard. And I think when you when you reframe privilege like that and kind of more like the real what it really means, there are many things in your life, in my life that I’ve worked very hard for that now. Afford me privilege. Right. So so here I am. This 30 something black guy. And yes, I have many privileges as well. You know, I’ve worked hard and I’ve got degrees and I have a house and a marriage, and all of those things give me less worry than than maybe someone who doesn’t have a house or doesn’t have a degree or isn’t married, right? There’s there’s certain things I don’t have to worry about, and I think that’s that’s entirely. I want to help the world kind of disentangle all of the negative emotions around some of these words and phrases so that we can engage in dialog just like what you just said. Like, I’ve always bristled with it and many, many people do. And it’s like, if we reframe it and now we can have a really cool conversation about, Oh, what if, given there’s an infinite number of privileges, what are some privileges we have? And what I asked that question, I mean, it’s amazing what pours out. People say, Oh, I’m you know what? People would call it attractive and there’s a privilege for that. And I’m, you know, whatever. It’s just really cool when the conversation kind of explodes in that way.
Speaker2: [00:25:16] So can’t we extend this to talk about recruitment and selection, the idea of a diverse hire? The things we should focus on as we create a structured something with some rigor around how we approach recruiting and selecting people and ensuring this this element of diversity, it extends to those topics, right?
Speaker3: [00:25:40] Absolutely, absolutely. I think diversity in hiring and HR is is probably one of the I’m going to challenge my words here. I want to say the easiest. It’s not easy. It’s probably one of the first things we should be doing, because if you look at if you look at your workplace very often, you can see the fingerprints of bias in hiring, right? You have certain levels of your organization. They’re mostly men. You have mostly certain races at different levels of the organization. And so it’s probably not a good representation of the folks that live in or work in around you. And and again, bias one of those words bias is not bad, right? It can lead to some bad outcomes, but bias by itself is not bad. I think what we want to do is we want to understand what our biases are, right? For many folks across across the of the western world is, we have a preference for lighter skin. We have a preference for taller people. They have a preference for, you know, male people with all these kind of preferences when it comes to looking for expertize. We have a preference for people that we like hanging out with. You know, if you’re in a hiring situation with somebody and you have a great conversation because you can connect on a lot of different levels, you’re more likely going to want to work with them.
Speaker3: [00:26:57] And so if you had to hire someone who have the same credentials, wouldn’t you prefer to hire someone that you had a great conversation with rather than someone who was awkward? Most likely, yes. Right. But that’s that’s a bias. And so one of the things that we’re working with with organizations around the country is helping them to see where those biases may be and then call them out and say, you know, I noticed that every time I hire a see this kind of patterns, nothing wrong with that, but I just want you to be aware of it kind of partner in hiring. And as we start to talk about these things, you know, we see people doing all kinds of really fantastic interventions like, let’s do blind blind applications. So let’s, you know, they’ll enter in their demographic information for sure. But then let’s strip that out. We don’t know their name, what school they went to, where they went. We know where they live. And let’s just evaluate it kind of like, was the TV show The Voice, right? And just evaluate it on the things we actually care about. Or there is this really interesting study that was done on hiring for the symphony.
Speaker3: [00:28:04] And there’s this really interesting thought that males are better at playing symphony instruments, string instruments, cello and viola and whatnot. And they did a test and they started having people play their pieces or their audition pieces behind a screen behind a curtain. So you couldn’t see who it was male or female. You couldn’t see the shape of anybody, and they found that the rate of female. Cellists increased significantly. Wow. Because people don’t have a bias. Well, maybe we do. And so when you slowly start to think about what you can do to just evaluate it, it might give you some really interesting insights. And the thing that I need people to realize is that bias is not bad, right? If we acknowledge I have this bias, it’s not a bad thing, right? You just want to talk about this is the way that I’ve seen the world my entire life and the way that our brains work. We want to expect the way we’ve always seen it to be, the way it’s going to be in the future. That’s it’s a tool to our benefit to do that. But we have to identify, Hey, this is what this may be. What’s going on? I want you to know.
Speaker2: [00:29:15] All right, so in a moment before we wrap, I’m going to make sure that our listeners know how to get in touch with you or someone on your team if they want to talk about these topics, I’m going to make sure that they can access the book. But right now here, in the moment when someone is first listening to to this, are there a handful of things they can do? And maybe we should say and don’t do? I don’t know. But just what are what are some things that you know before you, before we engage you or before we read you, book your book that maybe we should go back to the shop and start and start working on just just some, some small moves are there. You have some counsel in that regard.
Speaker3: [00:29:52] Absolutely. I think before, before you bring it to work, the first thing I want to challenge everybody to do is the next time you’re in some kind of debate, whether it’s about politics or about what to eat for dinner, right? I don’t I don’t care what the debate is. The next time you’re in some kind of debate instead of trying to prove them wrong or instead of trying to make your point, I want you to stop and I want you to say these words to them. Why are you so passionate about your position? Now what that does is it puts you in a place of what I call radical curiosity and the space of radical curiosity. So so that that phrase that question is is intentionally designed for a couple of reasons. One. You say your positions, you’re acknowledging I have a position you have. We’re acknowledging that difference. But then you say the word passionate and passion is is associated with strong emotion. But more accurately, it’s a positively charged, strong emotion. So you could say, why are you so obsessed with getting your way? I mean, it kind of gets at the same thing, but it’s not the same thing, right? And so you say, why are you so passionate about your position now when you kind of look at the whole thing? You’re asking a y question, not a what or how question. So you’re not saying, prove to me why you’re right, give me more facts and figures and data. What you’re actually asking them is what is underneath, what is driving you. And when you get to that level, it actually puts you in a place of trying to understand their humanity.
Speaker3: [00:31:22] I’ve got a colleague, actually a family member. It’s loose. It’s like my mom’s new husband’s sister’s new husband, right? And we are we are. We’re diametrically opposed on many political issues, and we are both very intelligent people. And we’re, you know, we battle back and forth, you know, trying to trying to prove each other wrong. And we at one point a couple of years ago, we just stopped. We stopped that kind of that fight and we asked this question of each other and I asked him and I said, You know why you’re so passionate? And he explained this history of working in the FBI and this history of of working or being a sailor in the Navy. All of these experiences that I have never had and will never have it provided this really complex tapestry of what brought him to his his position. And all of a sudden I saw this really complex and beautiful humanity. Now, I didn’t come to the same conclusion, but I understood him in a way I never had before, and that allowed us to have different kinds of conversation. So it’s not about like changing their mind or changing your mind, but rather getting to a place where you understand each other. Like, I don’t know, have you ever, ever been like, fully understood by somebody you’re talking with? Like, it feels really good, you feel connected to them and you feel seen? And I think that if we can give more people around us, that experience of being seen and heard and understood. It’ll it’ll it’ll it’ll deconstruct a lot of these issues that we’re dealing with right now.
Speaker2: [00:32:56] Wow. So Will said, Why are you so passionate about your position? I man, you have. You have so well equipped me for my next half a dozen conversations. This is why, guys, this way everybody should have a radio show. You get to interview people like Eric. They’re smart, they’re passionate. They’re happy to share stuff with you. Oh man, this is so much fun. I could talk with you all afternoon, but I really can’t. But we got to do this again sometime. But for now, let’s do make sure that our listeners have some points of contact whatever you feel like is appropriate, whether it’s LinkedIn email website. But I want to make sure they can get in touch with you. And let’s also make sure they know how to get their hands on the book that that you mentioned.
Speaker3: [00:33:43] Absolutely. So so you can find me on most social platforms is Eric M as in Michael Bailey. I used to go by Eric Bailly, but there’s actually another incredibly handsome black former athlete speaker named Eric Bailly based in Australia. So when I wrote my book, I actually I was getting his emails, so I had to actually add them in there for my pen name. So now my professional name is Eric Bailly, but you can find me Eric and Bailey on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn. I’m very active. On LinkedIn, on Twitter. Now, or you can just visit my website, which is Eric Bailly. You can find the book there. The book is called The Cure for Stupidity Using Brain Science to explain irrational behavior and and it’s fun giving that book as a gift because people always have a fun reaction to it. Like, Are you trying to tell me something? Because like, Oh, here’s the cure, I gave you the cure. No, but it’s really fun. It’s it’s written in the style like I speak, so you’ll probably hear my voice as you’re as you’re reading through it. But there’s actually an interesting a lot of interactivity in the book. There’s a lot of exercise that I run through, like I would do if we were being face to face. So it’s a fun book. It’s a quick read, but it also it doubles as a great book club book. I used to host a lot of book clubs and so I actually wrote this book as a book club book. So you can you can use it there as well.
Speaker2: [00:35:07] Well, Eric, it has been an absolute delight having you on the show. Thank you so much for for joining us. What a marvelous way to invest a Thursday afternoon. Thank you.
Speaker3: [00:35:19] Thank you so much. So thanks for having me. Thanks for a great conversation. You can tell him I’m enjoying him smiling. My cheeks hurt from smiling so much.
Speaker2: [00:35:25] Hey. And please do stay on the line. Even after we go off air, I want to visit with you for a moment just after. But. Yeah. Great job, man. Thank you so much.
Speaker3: [00:35:35] Thank you.
Speaker2: [00:35:36] All right. This is Stone Payton for our guest today, Eric Bailly and everyone here at the Business RadioX family saying we’ll see you next time on workplace wisdom.