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Melissa Swift With Anthrome Insight

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Melissa Swift With Anthrome Insight
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Melissa Swift is the founder and CEO of Anthrome Insight, a consultancy focused on organizational and personal effectiveness in the digital age.

She is the author of Work Here Now: Think Like a Human and Build a Powerhouse Workplace – and is at work on a second book for Wiley, title soon to be announced, available June 2026.

She writes a quarterly column for MIT Sloan Management Review. A recognized expert on work, workforces, and effectiveness at work, Melissa has been quoted in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and Newsweek, and appeared on NPR.

Connect with Melissa on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • About Anthrome Insight

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor hear another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Melissa Swift. She is the founder and CEO of Anthrome Insight. Welcome.

Melissa Swift: Great to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your firm. How are you serving folks?

Melissa Swift: So we are a people consulting firm, really laser focused on this question how to be effective in what is a pretty crazy world of work these days. And a lot of what we do is very research driven, very data driven, but quite practical and pragmatic. So the the goal here is to say, okay, work’s gotten a little crazy. What can you do to cut through the clutter and really make individuals effective teams, effective companies effective.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re saying crazy, what are some of the things you’re talking about?

Melissa Swift: So one aspect would be what’s called work intensification, which is work that’s simply gotten to be too much, you know, too many tasks per hour, too emotional, too interdependent, too many crazy processes. Work has also gotten very chaotic, I think, representing, you know, an outside world that gets ever more chaotic by the moment. Another facet would be that works gotten more transparent. And this is an interesting one because it cuts both ways. It’s it’s great that, you know, we have more information at our fingertips, but not all of the information is stuff we always want to hear or handle. So, you know, what we do at Anthem Insight is really help organizations. And, you know, again, individuals get to a place where, you know, I can be effective despite the 20 million email pings or, you know, all of this information that my team is struggling to absorb or whatever, all of these kind of chaotic, modern working conditions look like so.

Lee Kantor: Who was the ideal client for you?

Melissa Swift: I would say, you know, our work tends to really focus on organizations that are that are going through something. And that might be something really positive, right? It might be some great technology transformation or a merger and acquisition or, you know, exploring a new market, growing the business. Or it might be challenging times, you know, you might be in a place of contraction and, uh, you know, laying people off. You might be, you know, retrenching for an uncertain future. But, you know, I think the common thread is an organization really going through a big change and then understanding that that’s the moment to tune up on some of these basics about how to get work done, that, you know, it’s hard enough day to day, but then let’s say you’re trying to implement some great new technology. You know, people are in so many meetings and grappling with so many emails back to back that they’re just not Equipped to do the things you’re asking them to do. And that’s the moment when we can really come in and help. Uh, you know, again, as I said, based on on data and evidence, not cute theories. We’re very practical.

Lee Kantor: Now, what is kind of the symptoms? That there might be a problem at one of these organizations, you know, right before they contact you?

Melissa Swift: Well, usually the tell is that, you know, they’ve done all of these things to increase productivity or get to better outcomes, and the things don’t seem to work. So, you know, we implemented this great new system. We’ve gone through this big digital transformation. We completely reorganized. We bought this other company. You know, we’ve done all these great things. And the answer isn’t that the great things didn’t work on their own, or that they’re not going to work on their own. The answer is that the pipes are a little bit clogged, and all the great stuff you’re doing isn’t going to have the impact you want it to have without kind of some fundamental cleanup of just how how work gets done. You know, the the basic stuff of work in 2025 is a little bit weird and broken. And if you can again come in and address some of those pieces and make things simpler and clearer for folks. And, you know, again, and we work all the way down to the individual leader level, you know, it may be about as an individual leader, just making things simpler and clearer in your own job. And then for your team, that’s when you get some of the breakthrough progress that you would have expected from the bigger, cleverer things you’re doing.

Lee Kantor: So you mentioned research is important. Can you explain your backstory and how you kind of discovered that research is kind of at the crux of a lot of this.

Melissa Swift: So it’s interesting. I’ve conducted an array of research studies across an array of topics over the last, let’s say, decade or so. Everything from, you know, why do certain members of the C-suite not like each other to, you know, what actually makes for a great leader in the digital transformation context to, you know, what makes for a truly healthy organization? Um, and I think the the common thread is that the data usually tells us sort of 80% of what we already might suspect, but need data driven support for. And then 20% of the time you get those really kind of surprising and interesting conclusions that, um, you know, that that advance your understanding of the, of the topic. So I’ll give you an example. When we looked at, um, in a prior role, what makes for a great digital leader? A lot of it is what they don’t do rather than what they do. Do they? They step back, for instance, and create a context for their teams rather than being over their team’s shoulders. And so you get some of these research driven insights like that and you go, aha. This can actually help me give people a different practical path. And that’s I think what’s energizing and exciting is, you know, you can make all the cute consulting frameworks you want, but if you really have some hard data on things people can do differently, that’s that’s the holy grail. It’s super exciting.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re beginning work with a client, what do you do to kind of create that baseline so that you can see that you kind of achieved whatever the outcome they desired.

Melissa Swift: So what’s important is, you know, I always look at this, it’s like a like a Top Chef challenge where it’s, you know, you have to cook with the food, only the food that’s in the pantry. And so the food that’s in the pantry is going to be different at every organization. So what you want to do is come in and say, okay, what are the data sets that you have that really tell your story. And so there are some typical ones, you know, workforce movements who’s getting hired and how long do they stay before they quit and what level do they rise to, blah blah blah. You know, that’s that’s a great one. Um, engagement surveys are also a great tool, particularly because we often don’t mind that data well enough. So, you know, we look at things like the overall engagement scores can be interesting and telling, or they can be totally unhelpful. But then there are questions in engagement surveys, things like, I have the tools I need to do my job. That’s a very boring question with a lot of good information behind it. So what you do is you come in and you say, okay, it’s the sort of meta question, what data do you have that’s really going to tell me your story in simple and clear terms. And that’s, I think, how you set a good baseline. You know, you can also use them. You know, we do have some proprietary surveys and things like that. But I like to look to the organization’s own data first because again, a lot of the time most of the stories are already there.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with the organization, they see there’s a problem. You come in, you do a survey, you kind of get the lay of the land. Are you then. Now giving them. Okay. Here. A do a, B, C and d do you execute it on their behalf or is this kind of your letting them know kind of where they stand and give them recommendations. And then they kind of have to execute like where does the service begin and end?

Melissa Swift: I think one critically, some of it depends on what the follow up looks like. So in developing the recommendations, which is the part that we always do do, we’re really extremely focused on breaking patterns. So every organization like your family, you know we do the same silly things in families over and over. Your friend group right. You do the same silly things over and over. Companies are the same way, right? And this this the Freudian repetition compulsion. Companies do the same silly things over and over. So what we like to say is okay, all right. Here are data driven conclusions. What is going to break the patterns that got you to this point, right? What is going to set up new positive patterns for you and what’s going to break some of these cycles? So once we’ve developed those recommendations, depending on what the follow up looks like, we have an extensive network of partners that we work with. So you know, let’s say, you know, we need, you know, wonderful coaches or you need someone to do redesign some jobs. Whatever the the ask is, we’ve got this terrific network of folks who help execute on that. Um, or there may be cases where we say, you know, look, Armstrong can really carry this one all the way through to the ground.

Melissa Swift: Um, and in either case, we stay highly connected and make sure, again, that you’re doing that critical step of breaking patterns. The pattern breaking is, is really the the essence of where consulting recommendations often go wrong. Oftentimes, you know, we say okay, well, you know change these things. Well okay. Well we tried that 20 times and it didn’t work. Or you know, we give, um, advice that’s so sort of generic. And particularly in the people’s space, it’s very easy to come back to kind of these very generic myth recommendations. So we try to be extremely provocative and say, okay, we’re dealing with, you know, this is this. These are issues around human beings and how they get work done. What’s going to really change that? And let’s be as provocative as possible, and then let’s come up with an execution plan that you’re actually going to do. And that really equips the organization to participate in the execution themselves as well. Because I think that’s the other um, that’s the other challenge is, um, when organizations are insufficiently involved in the sort of the execution tale, they don’t own it and it doesn’t stick. So we believe that part is crucial as well.

Lee Kantor: Now, it sounds like a lot of the work you’re doing is going to impact the company culture. Um, how does that work? And do you work alongside the culture, or is this something where sometimes the culture needs to be disrupted as well?

Melissa Swift: I think And cultural disruption. It’s a fantastic question. Um, cultural disruption is nine times out of ten. A piece of the solution. Because again, when you think to a pattern breaking where the patterns come from, the patterns are the culture. The two are so woven tightly together at the same time. You don’t want culture to be the reason why the work was unsuccessful. And so the danger is that you don’t want to sort of like run up and slap the culture in the face because that’s that’s again, thinking about a sustainable execution that’s not going to work. So what we focus on is, okay, what is the least that needs to change about this company’s culture to get the change in work that we need? And, you know, so that that might be okay. We’re not going to change the behavior of every single leader in the organization. Right? That’s that might not be a realistic expectation, but can we get them to communicate a bit differently on email. That’s an example of a more realistic, culture changing suggestion, right? Because if everybody actually wrote their emails a little bit differently, that would change company culture. And that’s that’s actionable, particularly when you give people some really strong templates for how to do it. But it’s not it’s not so extreme that the very culture you’re trying to change will stop you from from changing it.

Lee Kantor: So now, as part of your service at the end of the, um, the course of action. There’s another kind of research done where you’re seeing, okay, this worked or this didn’t work, or where do we go from here? Like, is it bookended? Is research kind of the book ends.

Melissa Swift: You have to and you have to build research into the, the tail even that the company is going to end themselves. Right. So there, if they don’t have a way to constantly check on their own progress long after you leave, again, you’re not going to get that sustainment. So at the end of the day, yes, you want to measure on a data driven basis at the end of the project. You know, what can what data hallmarks can we look for to say that we genuinely made progress. But you also want to leave the organization with some super concrete ways that they’re going to measure it going forward. So, you know, you’re going to look at this engagement survey question, but also your this business outcome. I think that’s that’s the the other critical piece about measurement is that you can have all these lovely warm and fuzzy people measurements. But if the business isn’t impacted and you don’t have a way to measure that business impact, again, you’re not going to get the sustainment on changes and work. So we try to both, you know, measure that within the scope of the existing work, but also to to leave folks with, you know, some really concrete, uh, you know, ways to do that going forward.

Lee Kantor: So if you were building a company from scratch, what are kind of the must haves And the things you wouldn’t want to have in building that kind of, uh, workforce that’s going to be productive and thriving.

Melissa Swift: And building a company from scratch. I mean, I love I love this question. Um, because this is, you know, this is what people are doing live in the startup ecosystem all day long. I think from scratch, honestly, build with an excess of simplicity. And I know that sounds like a weird answer. You know, you’d expect something more about sort of empowerment or et cetera, etc. but a lot gumming up people. It’s really making them exhausted and frustrated and burnt out is just excess complexity that doesn’t serve a purpose that you know, we’ve built. Okay. You know, you have 15 direct reports or, you know, there. Think about what Jamie Dimon was complaining about, about having to take things through too many committees. The way to stop that at, you know, the organization gets to, you know, big, complex, multinational size is at the beginning being extraordinarily, almost minimalist about how you set things up. Don’t you know it’s fun? It looks fun and clever to set things up in a complex way, but it’s actually unhelpful to, again, people doing the work. It’s unhelpful to your technology, too. By the way, that’s the that’s the interesting thing. Everything you do in terms of simplicity and clarity helps people, and it helps you set up the technology that enables those folks, you know. So, for instance, if you set up really simple ways of thinking about your data from the beginning, it’ll be easier for an AI to help you with that data down down the road. But this is, I think, the step that you know, often gets missed is that simplicity and clarity are just really fuel human kind of creativity and innovation and and thriving.

Lee Kantor: Now, what do you recommend to organizations, um, on how to manage the Dei situation nowadays where a few years ago, die was something almost a must have in a lot of organizations, and that was an important component of how they were providing value to their people. And now it’s almost, uh, you know, a word you can’t speak aloud. So how do you help organizations manage through this change?

Melissa Swift: So what’s important is, again, focus on the business outcomes that are being sought. So if the business outcome, let’s say, is innovation, you need people with different thoughts. You can’t have everybody thinking the same and successfully innovate. It’s that clash and that contrast that drives innovation. So when, you know, just build backward from the business purpose and say, okay, well how do we engineer things like our interview processes for new hires or promotion processes to bring people up the chain to make sure everybody doesn’t think exactly the same? And by the way, we have to keep everyone. We need a group of people all thinking differently. We need them all in the same conversation. And how do we keep everyone in the same conversation? How do we run meetings such that everybody speaks and these die themed questions, right. This is just like how to run a sensible business. And I think when we tie it back to business outcomes and we make it about running a sensible business, and how do we make sure we don’t fall victim to, to groupthink or the loudest voices only that’s those are the right business questions to go after. And, you know, you stay out of some of the political questions around what should this all be called? Or how should this all be done? You know, just focus on the business thing you’re going after.

Lee Kantor: So when you kind of are laser focus on the outcome you desire, um, you’re going to be doing things that are going to be more inclusive. If you want to get that outcome, if you truly want to get that outcome.

Melissa Swift: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I always think about one of the things that one of the interesting facts about Enron, which was that I think, like the whole executive team belonged to the same country club or something like that. And that’s part of why they didn’t have that youthful dissent that could have saved the company. So that’s that’s what you’re managing against it. Just make sure everybody isn’t agreeing with each other all the time because again, that’s you don’t get the cool ideas. You don’t get the risk management. You know, there are a whole bunch of things that, if we all think the same, don’t go as well. And so, you know, design design for that. And and you’re good.

Lee Kantor: Right. But that takes a level of humility in order to and vulnerability in order to, to kind of look for, um, differing opinions. A lot of people are happy when everybody agrees. You know, that’s it seems like that’s the path of least resistance. But I’m hearing you say that you need to have that kind of dissent.

Melissa Swift: Simply because, you know, even if you don’t. Ultimately it’s not. It’s not saying that you have to agree with every dissenting opinion, but if you don’t have any of them, you know, you miss things. And that’s what today. I mean, with everything operating at the speed and the complexity we’re operating at. You don’t. Your worst fear should be missing things. And you should be engineering around. Let me make sure I’ve you know, I’ve kind of got all the possible scenarios in my head. And that’s where, you know, a culture of of constructive and respectful challenge, I think is a great asset for a company. And I’ve seen that done really well within some organizations. Where to your point, there’s a level of humility in leadership where they can say, okay, you know, let me let me hear why you disagree. And again, they don’t have to always agree. And they don’t I think that’s one of the great myths, is that you have to hear every disagreement and agree with it and act on it. You don’t. But not being exposed to those contrasting points of view, that to me creates a business risk, right?

Lee Kantor: That’s where the problem is. You should be allowed to say whatever you want to say, but don’t assume that I’m going to act on everything you say.

Melissa Swift: Oh, not not at all. And I’ve seen leaders go very wrong that way. By the way, if you are sensible, you know, sensitive to every little breeze that blows every different way. You’re not a leader that’s strong in your skis, right? You are not displaying decisive, thoughtful leadership. You know, what is it they say? Like the essence of strategy is what you say no to. You should be good and okay to say no. But if you don’t know the range of what’s possible, you know, then again, your danger is your competitor does.

Lee Kantor: Now, you wrote the book work here. Now think like a human and build a powerhouse workplace. Um, can you talk a little bit about how that came about?

Melissa Swift: So work here now is really about what can we do to, you know, sort of fix some of these little nits in the ways that we work. That, again, just enables us to be both more productive and have healthier workforces. You know, I firmly believe in the intersection of that, that Venn diagram. I don’t think it has to be an either or. Either we get maximum value out of people or those people are happy. I believe that there’s this kind of really nice central ground and work here now is about how do you find it. So it’s things like I talk about in the book The Work Anxiety Monster. You know, you need to we all have this voice in our head that’s like people are lazy, people are slow. You, Melissa, you’re lazy. You’re slow. Right? We do it to ourselves. And shutting down some of those anxious voices inside our heads and not running organizations that way and saying, okay, you know, I believe people will do the right job again when we set up the work properly, if we change some of our fundamental beliefs again, you know, it’s if you look at technology growth over the last few decades, it’s been exponential. If you look at actual productivity growth, it’s so much slower. And the gap is how we organize work and how we think about our workforces. So work here now is really about, you know, how can we shift that thinking to do all of that a lot better?

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you feel about the kind of the different generations in there? Um, our looks and the way they’re approaching work.

Melissa Swift: It’s a great question. I believe that, so I’m Gen X, right? My personal stake in this is I think work has changed a lot during my lifetime. I think a lot of that’s been technology driven, uh, some good, some bad. And what’s interesting is if you’re Gen X, you you kind of you’ve had the real ringside seat to all this change you’ve watched. You know, we started using email early in our working careers, things like that. If you’re older than Gen X then, you know you’ve kind of locked in on work in a different time. And if you’re younger than Gen-X, you’re getting dropped into a workplace that’s changed a lot in a relatively short amount of time. Right. The like, let’s say the Gen Xers working lifetime, you know, 25 years, 30 years, whatever. And you’re having a like an interesting reaction to it. You know, you’re going, well, why do I need to be in 12, 30 minute meetings in a day? But if you’re older than Gen X, you’re going, well, you’re going to be in the meetings your boss tells you to be in. If you’re Gen X, you’re going, oh geez, I don’t know. And that’s where we get some of this really interesting generational contrast. And I know specific generation is is right or wrong. Um, it’s just that because we’ve been through a time of rapid change, you get what looks like a lot of polarization between generations at this exact moment.

Lee Kantor: So, so how do you kind of manage that? How do you manage the the younger people, uh, nowadays that are like, look, I’m leaving at five because, um, me and my friends are going to the movies and this movie’s just come out, so, you know, that’s a non-negotiable. We’re like you said, maybe older generations are like, you just stay until the work’s done.

Melissa Swift: Until the work’s done. Yeah, well, some of it is generations being all being open about their working style. Like, one of the things that I do personally when I manage folks is I actually talk about how I get work done, that. Yes. You saw me leave at 530, uh, because I had to go, you know, pick up my daughter from aftercare. Right. And this is my reality as a working mom. Um, but then I there was some stuff that was left to be done. So after I put her to bed at, you know, this would be the past of my daughter, not the present. But, you know, after I put her to bed, I got back on email at nine. Right. And I worked from nine to whatever. And because that worked for me. Right. Um, and just being really transparent about I got done what needed to get done. I used that flexibility properly and, you know, you may have a different version of that, right? You may be a super early riser, so maybe your version is not working from 9 to 11 p.m.. It’s like you get up at four and work from four till six.

Melissa Swift: God bless. It’s not me, but some. Again, some people’s circadian rhythms and lifestyles work that way. So I think some of it is just more transparent on working styles and trade offs. And okay, if you that’s the trade offs you want to make because you want to see the movie. Fabulous. Go for it. These are the timelines on what to do. So you figure out how to make it work. And this is my example of this is how I make it work. And I think sometimes just giving that gritty lifestyle clarity I’ve gotten a lot of feedback. Oh my god, Melissa, that’s so helpful. I literally did not understand how you get things done. And if we can all communicate a little bit better about that, then again, it doesn’t have to be like, I win, you lose. It’s like it can be a win win. Things can get done on time and people can have the lives they need. It’s just you have got to understand the constraints on one side, and then I think you do need some visibility on how the older generations actually get things done right.

Lee Kantor: And it goes like you said earlier, the foundationally communication and clarity are so critical because without those, then you get these kind of resentments and then you create kind of that, uh, the hostile environment in the, in the office. When it does, it’s not necessary really.

Melissa Swift: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think a lot of the, the, you know, cross-generational crossfire is to your point exactly that just a lack of communication and misunderstanding and, and, you know, again, that’s where the kind of over communicating and letting people see a little bit about what’s behind the curtain. I think is, is the right move. And again, it is tougher for the older generations because we did not have like the leaders who were my role models in general, didn’t model that clarity. That is something that I’ve talked to a lot of Jenks colleagues. We are having to come up with that script ourselves. And that’s that’s an interesting moment.

Lee Kantor: Right. Well, back in the day, it was like I hired you. You’re supposed to know how to do all this stuff, so you figure it out. And now this generation is like, well, tell me what needs to be like. It’s more hand-holding in that regard. And as long as you’re clear and you can communicate properly, I think everyone’s going to get the outcome they desire.

Melissa Swift: Absolutely. And acknowledging that in some ways this generation requires more communication because, again, with technology and everything in the equation, I you know, I look at what my working day looked like when I was fresh out of college versus some of these folks, and they needed a little more communication because we have made things a little more complicated. And, you know, it’s okay. That’s okay. Communication, again, is what smooths the waters and what’s what keeps us all running.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team. What is the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Melissa Swift: So a few different ways. I am very active on LinkedIn, both as myself, Melissa Swift and also for the company Anthem Insight, our website, and Throw Insight. Uh, there’s the older book work here now, and I have another book coming from Wiley in June of next year. That will be a bit more on the side of talking about personal effectiveness in this crazy world of work and what you individually can do.

Lee Kantor: Well, look forward to talking to you about that next year. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Melissa Swift: Thanks so much.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Professional Life Coach Coach Karen Jayne

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Professional Life Coach Coach Karen Jayne
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Karen Jayne is a certified, professional life coach, specializing in relationships, relationship coaching, intimacy and fulfillment, and self-love. She initially started her “becoming a life coaching journey” while going through a divorce 17 years ago. Starting out in the niche of sexuality, she led workshops for women called Fanning your Embers, where she gave out Passports to Passion.

She wrote a book called 3 Pillows down, ‘One woman’s provocative journey to self-fulfillment’, that was an Indie Book Award finalist. As she has evolved so has her coaching. Her focus now is on conscious awareness and supporting people in seeing the ways their habits, behaviors, programming, and beliefs are impacting how their lives are unfolding for them.

She has been ICF certified since 2008, and over the past 5 years, she has also become an Advanced IET energy healer, as well as a DECU/OM codes practitioner which supports cellular reprogramming and DNA recoding.

She believes if we focus more of our attention on our internal reality, we will be able to know our true desires with greater clarity and magnetize them to us through more joy and fun!

Connect with Karen on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • The importance of living from love based motivation (Abundance mentality) rather than fear based motivation (Lack mentality)
  • The importance of setting intention and then letting go
  • Recognizing how judgment is limiting and externally focused, and discernment is internally focused and necessary

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor hear another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Karen Jayne, who is with Coach Karen Jayne. Welcome, Karen.

Karen Jayne: Thank you.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn about your practice. Tell us how you serving folks.

Karen Jayne: So the main way that I serve folks these days is in helping them actually wake up to themselves more. I feel that I’ve had my own journey, and it’s through my own journey that I know how to serve other people in finding their inner joy, their inner fulfillment, and recognizing the ways that they’re actually getting in their own way because we’ve been programed to focus on external reality and try to go to the problem and change it from the problem itself, which is sort of like going to the mirror and trying to change the reflection when the truth is what’s creating a lot of the things that people are experiencing, whether it’s professionally or personally in their lives, it’s coming from an internal belief system, an internal thought process, and then it creates certain behaviors and actions from us that magnetize to us the very things that a lot of times we don’t even really want.

Lee Kantor: So why don’t we start with the journey? Do you mind sharing a little bit about your backstory and how you got to where you are?

Karen Jayne: I would love that. Thank you. Honestly, I was primarily a stay at home mother, which I loved because for me, having children was a really important part of life, and I felt like I wanted to raise my children. And as part of that, I did actually create a movement music guidance program with my sister called The Fun One Way, which teaches respect to children inside and out. The same for them to give it to themselves and to others as well. And honestly, until Covid, I actually taught that program in local preschools and kindergartens for over 20 years, and it had tremendous impact and I felt like it was life coaching for kids. So in 2008, I went through a divorce, and during that time I also recognized at that point my children were between 10 and 14, and I knew that I wanted to work more and find something meaningful, though, because raising my children had been so meaningful that I didn’t want to just go do some retail job, that I didn’t feel any kind of heart connection to. However, I had a lot of fear because this isn’t something I’d ever really other than the. I had had this part time business, which was great, but I also had always been living with a husband, and it had been a very different experience to then become a single woman.

Karen Jayne: And I remember being quite overwhelmed, even just with the protection of my children when I was alone with them. But during this time, because I became a life coach, I actually got coached during my own divorce. So I got a beautiful 360 experience of the value of what coaching can be. And it also really helped me inculcate the very practices that I was being taught. And I feel that one of the things in this school that I went to that I really resonated with was the fact that becoming a life coach, it’s really more honoring who you already are. Most coaches, this is kind of how they roll through life anyway. And one of the things that I feel over the last 17 years has really proven to be a very powerful reflection of my own growth that has magnetized to me greater success continually is the fact that I walk my own talk. I’m not asking anyone out there. I’m not coaching anyone to do anything that I am not consistently doing myself, and I feel the further I am able to bring myself to great spaces and places of my own conscious awareness around how I’m creating the life that I’m finding myself living in, and the relationships that I’m finding myself surrounding me, the more empowered I become.

Karen Jayne: And it really has been this shift from becoming a recovering people pleaser, where all my security came from, making sure everyone around me felt comfortable and satisfied. And this is part of why my first marriage didn’t work out, and we didn’t have the communication skills to be together, to be able to move into something different. And so part of going through the coaching experience, I also really honed my listening and my communication, and I started to understand a frequency in the value of the word. We speak That language carries. It casts spells. That’s why we call it spelling. And that I started to really also open up more to what I’ll refer to as spirituality. And what I mean by that is less. It’s not a religion, but it’s actually a relationship within myself to an energy that I actually believe is, I’ll call it my soul self. So it’s a it’s a part of who I am, but it’s not trapped in the physical body so that it’s not limited in some of the ways that, say, my intellectual mind or my emotional body are limited.

Lee Kantor: Can you share a little advice for people who are thinking about becoming a coach like you did, um, how you find a, um, a program you like and you kind of get certified or you work through their program and then at some point, though, you make it your own by incorporating things that you’re seeing and doing and living. Can you talk about how that comes together and becomes, you know, the coach Karen Jane methodology?

Karen Jayne: Yes. Thank you. Um, great question. Because it is a process and it is a practice, and each one of us has the chance to develop our own unique offering, and there’s room for all of us. Um, I feel like a very important component in addressing the journey is really about a shift that I went through. And I think most coaches go through of, uh, moving from what I’m going to call a lack mentality, which is based from fear versus a love mentality, an abundance mentality that’s based in trust. And this applies whether it’s personal or professional, because it becomes the motivator. And when you’re creating a business, you. When I first started out, I followed everything the coaching school suggested. And this was, you know, way back. It was a long time ago. And it was you. You want to get them for a three month commitment, and it’s every week. And this is the fee. And they can’t get out of it after the first month because the second month is is super hardest. And they’re teaching us these things to try to help us create a sustainable, functional business that we can count on. But what I started to recognize over the years was that people are different. And yes, there are consistencies among everyone, but I personally didn’t want to be running a business that was forcing people because of a commitment to continue to see me, if that’s not where they were at.

Karen Jayne: So I let that go. And part of the process of starting to let some of these external controls, we’ll call them in place that help you feel more secure in your business is by building an internal control, which is recognizing what your frequency is. Because we are energetic beings and energy is like the radio station that we’re tuned into, which is also then the kind of jobs we attract, the kind of clients we attract, how well we move into our niche. When I they do also suggest you start in a niche, and I do support that for new coaches. I think starting out in a niche that you feel confident and comfortable in, that you also feel separates you a little bit. For me, I actually chose sex for with a main focus on women connecting to their own sexual selves and finding that pleasure for themselves, and recognizing it’s a source of energy that I found a lot of women, by the time they were middle aged, married mothers with some kids were kind of not prioritizing that part of themselves in their life.

Karen Jayne: And I had a very unusual upbringing, very healthy, See where my parents are. They were married almost 68 years, and they were intimately engaging the entire time. In fact, when my father got dementia became a little bit of a problem because he kept forgetting they had just been intimate and my mother was going a little crazy. They were in their 80s at this point. So, um, I felt comfortable talking about a topic that a lot of people didn’t, and it actually led me to getting a lot of wonderful clients. And I created a workshop for women called, uh, Fanning Your Embers. And we’d give out little passport for passions, for help, to help them kind of reflect for themselves the things that they might enjoy or want to explore or put time and energy into thinking about it. Because that’s the other thing. What we focus on is what we grow. Our thoughts create, our words shape, and our feelings fuel. So what we focus on the most is what we grow the most in our life. And it’s we’re really programed to focus on what could go wrong rather than what can go right. And I’m sorry.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re talking to your clients about, uh, kind of opening up into this abundance mentality from maybe this lack mentality, can you talk about some of the exercises you do to, to at least, um, number one, to make them self-aware that maybe they weren’t, um, participating in an abundance mentality? And number two, how to kind of foster it so that it continues, it becomes the default rather than the, you know, exception to the rule.

Karen Jayne: Absolutely. I feel like the first step is that you have to actually want to start to take personal responsibility. A lot of people are so programed to external reality, and everything is about an external achievement and validation that it’s almost like if they’re not receiving it or you’re not doing it. You. It’s not enough. It’s never enough. And and I’ve actually worked with a lot of business owners, men who develop their own companies that got very successful but still were feeling a little empty inside. And I would say it’s because their driver was still fear. And so they could never truly relax into their success because they had to keep doing more and more and more. And I do believe that when you look into nature and you see the cycle, we don’t just exhale. We always must inhale as well as exhale. There’s not a lot in the business culture of rest as being valued. And so I feel like the person who’s ready to take this leap, it’s a bit of a leap to go from, I’m going to do everything I can do externally, to put everything into place so I can trust and and know that my needs are going to be met easily and my life is going to go the way I think I want it. And this is starting to actually flow with a slightly different voice that I believe we all have within us, but not many of us are choosing to actually listen to because we have two voices in our mind. And you have to want to do this work.

Karen Jayne: You want to know, are you listening to your ego mind? That is, its job is to keep you alive, fight flight free. So it’s always going to be using a lot of words. It’s going to be afraid of anything and everything that could go wrong. And in some ways, this is what keeps us looping rather than evolving on a spiral of evolution. We’re kind of looping around fear loops. So it’s it’s about saying, all right, I believe I choose, I choose to take the leap and rather than see it first and then believe it, I’m going to start tuning into my own energy. So the physical body is our tool, because it’s the only part of us that is always and only ever in the present moment. The mind, the emotional body. They can be all over the place. The past, the present, the future. The mind is never almost in the in the now. So the more we get in the now, that’s where the information that we’re actually looking for exists. Because in the now I understand it’s a it’s getting in the now and being willing. I do a lot of meditation. I actually I started chanting practice right before that actually, I believe created the inner channel for me to realize I needed to get a divorce. And then going through the divorce process, I faced a lot of my own interferes because I was alone a lot, and I was still chanting at that time, and I evolved into a very, uh, a great meditation practice. And over the course of time that has evolved as well.

Karen Jayne: And as I’ve evolved, I actually did want to mention I wrote a fun book called Three Pillows Down that won an award. Um, it’s in the relationship Category, and it’s available on Amazon Numerical three. And it’s based on the premise that how you show up in your sex life is actually an accurate reflection of how you show up in all areas of your life, and it proposes that you can change any patterns in either expression, and you will ripple it into the other area. And it does. And you don’t have to be in a relationship to be in a sex life. And so that’s kind of and it shows a life coaching journey for three months along with reflections. So that’s just kind of a sidebar of something fun. Um, and as I completed that, I also evolved where sexual energy is important and I recognize its value. But I my approach now is much more global in terms of my I’m focused more on general conscious awareness, which is how am I influencing the life I’m living based on what thoughts am I focused on most of the time? And then if I’m not feeling good inside, I know my thoughts need to be examined and then I want to trace them. What’s the truth in it? So it’s kind of a process of getting to know yourself a lot better, to the point where you’ll start to feel the minute you’re not aligned and in a peaceful place, you’ll know right away. And and then you check in with yourself as a first practice.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned early on that you recommend that new coaches focus on the niche. Like you mentioned, sexuality was a niche for you when you began and now you broaden it. Can you talk about making that transition? Because in some ways, that could be scary to first be taking the leap to be a coach and then finding a niche and then going from that niche to a different or maybe a broader base. Was that transition difficult, or was this just kind of an organic evolution of your practice?

Karen Jayne: Honestly, for me, because of how I do walk my talk. I would say it was a very organic evolution because I, I recognized where all of my own self judgments were really limiting me and creating a lot of insecurities and doubts, which was then actually, um, bringing me a lot of I use my own personal life a lot as well. I am actually remarried, um, for a dozen years now, and I’m having a very different experience, and it’s supporting me tremendously in continuing to grow myself and to take personal responsibility especially. And it is scary because every time you do something different, you’re going to feel fear. And this process is scary because it’s really a process of losing what you think, who you think you are. Little by little, all these identifications and all these concepts that I thought made me important or somebody special. I’ve learned over time I. I’m actually not that and and that actually led me during Covid. I did go through a time where my business got smaller and my revenue diminished. You know, it was not a flex time for me in that regard. However, what did happen was that the universe, because that’s really what’s changed for me. I stopped only listening to the little mind in my head that I considered to be my egoic mind, who is a wonderful, beautiful aspect of me, but not my not my most wise. I won’t call her because they don’t.

Karen Jayne: It’s a limited perspective. And so, over the course of the few years of Covid, during that time, I was actually able to do even deeper inner growth and get involved in something that involves cellular reprograming and DNA recoding. And what that did was allow me, because I was working on myself as well as other people, I’m being worked on by other people to clear my body even more of a lot of what these reaction systems are that make it hard for someone to even know what’s going on for them. A lot of us are living on a lot of cortisol, and everything’s from one reaction to another. It’s from one stress to another. It’s from one fear to another or one responsibility to another. So it is a big, uh, it is a big leap. It is a big choice. When I went through my divorce, part of what I claimed was that I was going to become a variable in my own life for the first time, not just an equal sign or a plus sign or something that was serving the whole that I was a part of, because that kept me constantly needing to make sure everyone around me was okay, which I could never, never really control. And then if they weren’t okay, then I wasn’t okay. So my power was never within myself. I was not empowered. And that’s something that also organically shifts and changes.

Karen Jayne: And then I would say it’s during that reprograming time that I was and recognizing how the universe kept still providing for me and really unique and magical ways that I started to realize I don’t need to work so hard. I need to work smart. And to me, working smart is be responsible for the frequency channel that I am vibrating at, because that’s what’s going to attract to me. The thoughts are electric, but then my heart’s magnetic and that’s what’s going to attract me, what I receive. And it’s not necessarily going to be what I say. It’s going to be what I believe I’m going to get and what I believe I deserve. So self-worth is also one of those seeds that most of us also have to overcome at some point. And I believe that as a coach and someone who’s interested in being a coach, I feel like the journey within yourself really is the greatest gift of all. And you start realizing, I’m I’m here to keep growing this part of drop of life force energy that is in me. And through that, I can help the masses so much better, or serve the people that the universe conspires to bring my way. I actually just this morning received a phone call from a woman that I had met at a bar a year ago. Who wants to work with me now?

Lee Kantor: Now, can you share? Um, that’s brings up an important point.

Karen Jayne: Fun universe, right for you.

Lee Kantor: But what are some signs for a person who has never had coaching before? What are some signs that maybe coaching is the right thing for you to be doing now, to get to where you’d like to go? Are there some things that people are experiencing right before they work with you?

Karen Jayne: Definitely. When people have done their work so they can tell you, oh, you know, I was abandoned, then I was rejected. You know, I had this happen to me traumatically because a lot of us, our lives initially are kind of based upon our traumas. That’s how we show up and and protect ourselves as we move through life. Um, and so therapy is usually a great option or some kind of other support where you can start to release some of those trapped energies. But there definitely comes a point. One year, two years depends on how long, how deep, whatever you want to go. Six years. Six months. Where you don’t want to keep rehashing the same old thing. Because what you focus on is what you grow. So at some point, going into the past doesn’t serve us anymore because it literally just recreates. There’s a universal principle called the law of the circle. And I like to say, imagine every morning you wake up and there’s a whiteboard and it’s clear. And during the day, every thought you have, every word you speak, every feeling, everything conscious and unconscious gets painted on that whiteboard. And tomorrow it starts showing up in your daily life. Very often we keep seeing the same thing, and therefore we keep repainting it and wonder why it never changes. So sometimes you keep looping if you just try to, um, get Better while still rehashing all the same old stuff, because every the mind is just actually a tool for imagination. And the goal on the planet right now, I think, in a really global level, is for us to all challenge ourselves, to start using our imaginations to create the pictures of reality we desire.

Karen Jayne: Because what we’re witnessing in external reality is extreme duality, where everything is right or wrong, good or bad. I’m on this side and I’m on that side. And the truth is that we’re evolving together as an entire humanity. And what we’re evolving into, I believe, is unity consciousness, which is a next level of conscious awareness, where we start to recognize an underlying oneness of all life, which allows us to also value the what we deem as opposites right now and actually are truly polarity, because polarity is required for energy to create. And so if we can start to create more space for the diversity and celebration of uniqueness amongst all of us, rather than this concept that there’s a mainstream normal and we all want to be it, I think that we would really blossom and people could use their imaginations in much more creative and fun and contributing ways. And when we’re not at war within ourselves, and we set ourselves free to kind of be our unique selves, I don’t think anyone’s going to show up for war out there anymore. But I do believe that the frequency of war exists in people still, which is why it’s still existing in external reality, which, as I kind of mentioned, that beginning is just a shadow reflection of what all of us are doing on the planet right now.

Lee Kantor: And if somebody wants to learn more about your practice or get on your calendar, is there a website or is there a best way to connect?

Karen Jayne: Yes, definitely. There is a website. Dot com. I also just. Email is at dot com and just shoot me an email. Mention you heard me on business radio and uh that would be wonderful.

Lee Kantor: And that’s coach k e n j a y n e.com.

Karen Jayne: Yes. Thank you so much for reiterating that.

Lee Kantor: Well, Karen, thank you so much for sharing your story. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Karen Jayne: Thank you very much, Lee. I really appreciate this opportunity to come on and chat with you.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Al Kushner With LinkedVantage

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Al Kushner With LinkedVantage
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Al Kushner is an award-winning author and sought-after LinkedIn Growth Strategist, renowned for his innovative approach to digital networking.

His groundbreaking book, The A.I. LinkedIn Advantage, has transformed how professionals and businesses leverage artificial intelligence to optimize their LinkedIn presence, grow networks, and drive meaningful engagement.

Al’s expertise in blending AI-driven strategies with actionable insights has made him a trusted advisor and thought leader, empowering countless individuals to achieve measurable results on the platform.

Connect with Al on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • The AI LinkedIn Advantage
  • How has AI transformed the way professionals approach personal branding on LinkedIn
  • What common mistakes do people make on LinkedIn that hold them back from maximizing their potential
  • How can professionals leverage AI to stay competitive in industries that are constantly changing

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Al Kushner and he is an award winning author with Linked Vantage. Welcome, Al.

Al Kushner: Hey, thank you for the opportunity to be here. Appreciate it.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. I’m assuming this is LinkedIn related, and you’re having to be clever about the name Linked Vantage. Tell us a little bit about your firm. How are you helping people?

Al Kushner: Well, I wrote a book called the AI LinkedIn advantage, and here to share some of my insights of the book. It is getting released tomorrow, actually, Independence Day to celebrate maybe people’s independence from their time spent on LinkedIn and using AI technology to help create more. Or free up more time to use the platform more effectively.

Lee Kantor: So what’s your backstory? How’d you get involved in this line of work?

Al Kushner: Well, I was using LinkedIn, I guess, for the past 20 years and realized that it’s grown into a really tremendous network. And I said to myself, you know, what can I do to set myself different from what’s out there? And I’ve been doing a lot of training with clients and corporations, helping them to optimize their profile and do successful outreach. And I looked in the market for what books were available, and there wasn’t really anything that addressed the issue of both LinkedIn A and AI together. And now that it’s become more popular, I said, well, why not? This made a lot of sense. And that’s that’s why I decided to, uh, you know, create the book and, and use it in my practice to help people to make their experience on LinkedIn more effective.

Lee Kantor: So what are kind of some of the mistakes you see people making when it comes to LinkedIn in terms of their own personal branding.

Al Kushner: Well, I think a lot of times is that people don’t spend the time to really create or optimize their profile. And when they do decide to do an outreach, people can see pretty much right through it for the most part. It looks either amateurish at best or salesy. And it really turns people away for the most part. If they don’t really take the time to to really create content that is worthy of someone’s attention, they’re going to miss out on opportunities that they could have had.

Lee Kantor: So how should somebody go about leveraging AI when it comes to their LinkedIn profile and outreach?

Al Kushner: Well, simple. You can use AI technology, for example, to create a headline that has certain keywords that can help a person get found. Let’s say if there are, let’s say, for example, they’re doing a podcast and they were looking for guests. They would optimize their profile, including, you know, having guests on the program, the individual’s experience. Um, it’s just an example of using some creative, uh, SEO to get found on LinkedIn. Also talk about the about section, which, uh, emphasizes about the individual’s history and also do it in a way that it looks easy to read. You know, with certain bullet points. So people don’t want to spend a lot of time on you. You only have a you don’t really get a second chance to make a first impression. So you really want to stress the importance of having a profile that really stands out. Uh, other features include any awards that you’ve won, maybe accomplishments that you’ve done. Um, any articles that you’ve written that’s also helpful. Again, depending, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur, uh, which is uh, a lot of people I work with, uh, sometimes people are looking for jobs and they want to update their profile. It’s important to update your profile every quarter just to, you know, be current. And if you have changed jobs, you know, you could share that information on LinkedIn and it will go out to whoever’s following you. And and sometimes people don’t really do that and they can miss out a lot of opportunities.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, with a lot of the AI out there nowadays, you have to kind of give it the material, uh, to learn from, to understand you and your writing and, um, you know, just some of your content. Do you have to do the same thing with your LinkedIn? Do you do you have to kind of, uh, upload all of your LinkedIn into an AI, uh, platform in order for it to be able to help you effectively?

Al Kushner: No, I mean, you can use it to create, you know, content. Let’s say if you have a newsletter you want to send it out, you can create a newsletter, send out each week, and you’d have followers and they’d be receiving a newsletter. Uh, and the AI could help create not only the content but, uh, some topics that a lot of times people will have trouble thinking about. It can create up to 5000 topics, so you’ll never run out of, you know, ideas for, um, you know, for creativity. In addition to that, you can use the AI to write a script for a video, which is very effective on the platform. Video is probably a very, uh, it’s very well liked by the algorithm of LinkedIn. So if you do decide to use, uh, the videos, it could be really, uh, making a difference in getting on the radar for people you want to connect with.

Lee Kantor: And now is there a certain AI platform you prefer over another? There seems to be quite a few out there nowadays.

Al Kushner: Well, it’s always changing, you know. Uh, right now, of course, it’s ChatGPT, which is a very popular, um, AI technology that’s being used. And, uh, I certainly, uh, find it very helpful. There’s Grammarly, which is another one that also helps, uh, Canva, which is great for creating artistic backgrounds and also help with videos too, which is surprising. So there’s in my book, I have a lot of resources available. Can people can use to access and find the latest technology that’s available.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re using AI? Are there some do’s and don’ts? Like I would imagine you should use it as a starting point, but not necessarily an ending point. You can’t just cut and paste out of AI, can you?

Al Kushner: Um, well, it’s not recommended because you’re not going to come across as being authentic. And that really is something that people can see through. So you really want to use it as a, um, as a tool to outline the type of message you want to convey, but then puts your own thought into that. So it really sounds where it’s coming from, it’s coming from you, and it really can make a difference with your own voice and your own, you know, reflection of the post that you are going to use.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re working with your clients and helping them kind of create this content calendar for posting. Is there a rhythm you recommend? Is there? Um, certain types of content that you recommend, a mixture of which, you know, between you mentioned a little bit about video. So should you have a mixture of text, video, audio, um, you know, what is your recommended kind of content strategy? Uh, components.

Al Kushner: Well, every person is different depending on their situation. Um, I had a client who was looking for a way to make more, uh, connections, uh, using groups on LinkedIn. And I explained that what’s really effective in groups is creating videos. And videos should be no more than 90s at best. And we created a script for a video and that was able to be used for postings. And he found that by using videos in Groups really increased his, uh, reach tremendously. Uh, and he’s now he’s every week, uh, posting, uh, different videos for different groups and finding he’s getting a lot more engagement than he had if he just posted simple text.

Lee Kantor: So, um, can you talk a little bit about groups? Because I don’t know if everybody is familiar with that and maybe share a little bit about the strategy around it. So on your LinkedIn and LinkedIn, your feed, you can just click a button and post. And that goes out to kind of everybody. But you can also work within certain groups. Can you talk about the strategy of taking content and just posting it within the group, rather than maybe into the general feed?

Al Kushner: Well, simple. You know, the groups that you are participating in when you do post, uh, the members will be alerted as opposed to, let’s say, for example, your own, which you may not have enough members or followers to begin with. So, for example, you’re currently in the Media and Marketing Professionals Worldwide Group, which has 1.3 million members, which is pretty substantial size group. So you would, for example, post a video in that group and they’ll be notified of the actual video being shown. And what’s great about it is that it gets a lot more eyeballs on your message as compared to text, which I would say at least 95% of those members are posting in that group. So it’s really going to raise your level of awareness. And the algorithm of LinkedIn really loves that. So that’s going to be to your advantage.

Lee Kantor: So now can I take that like say I’m a member of five groups. Can I take that same video and and post it in those five groups and my feed. Or should I not do that. Like what are some of the do’s and don’ts when it comes when you have multiple groups you’re part of?

Al Kushner: Well, I guess it depends on the group that you’re focusing and what your message is you’re trying to come across. So for example, you’re in the marketing executives group and you’re a video you would post there, but it may be different than your AI powered marketing group. So again, you want to customize the message for that type of group. Because the fact is it should be educational in nature. And if it doesn’t really, you know, appeal to the members of that particular group because the message is not really kind of directed towards them, then you’re going to kind of lose out on that. So you really want to kind of customize it for each group that you’re going to be posting in. As far as your own post. You can always post to your particular feed, which is fine. But again, you may not have that amount of reach compared to the groups, which are certainly more sizable.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you post to your feed, only a small percentage of your feed sees any given post. Is it the same within the group or do more people within a group see a given post?

Al Kushner: More people will see it because they’ll be notified of the post of the video, actually, you know, being played in the group. So they’ll be alerted and they’ll decide whether or not they want to view it or not. Again, when you’re doing a type of post, it should be educational by nature. If you’re doing a blatant ad, for example, they’ll remove the post. So it’s not something that you know is going to be, you know, because again, a group is all about being accepted into the group, and whatever you’re posting should be a value to the members. So sometimes people don’t see it that way and they just post. They think it’s just a good place to put an ad, and that’s not the way to do it. Of course, you can do it in your own personal feed, which is fine. But again, you know, for groups a little more selective. And what you’re saying.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there any way to get more eyeballs on the post within your own feed without, you know, boosting it? Because as soon as you post something, LinkedIn wants you to boost it?

Al Kushner: No. You know, LinkedIn doesn’t require you to boost it at all.

Lee Kantor: They don’t require you. But if you want any, if you want more people to see it, you have to pay.

Al Kushner: Well, yeah, of course, if you want to pay to play. But I find that if you’re looking to have people be notified. A lot of times people create newsletters. And when you have a newsletter, they get notified immediately as soon as you post in the newsletter. Again, newsletter is a more for content, not necessarily video. So if you do post in the newsletter it would go to those followers of the newsletter itself. So if you have people who are following you but not following a newsletter, they’re not going to get receive that message. You’d have to post it separately. But what’s unique about the newsletters is that not only will they be notified on LinkedIn that the newsletter has been posted, but also they’ll receive a message directly in their inbox, you know, through their email or platform like Gmail, Yahoo! And what’s great about LinkedIn is that it has such a high authority that usually bypasses spam filters and gets directly to the individual, so that’s really unique about it. So if you’ve been having problems sending your own newsletter personally directly to people and they’re not receiving it, well, use LinkedIn, you’ll be quite surprised it gets through.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there a story you can share? Maybe one of your clients who was able to benefit from your book or some of your counsel?

Al Kushner: Yeah, I mean, I had a client who was trying to reach his target audience where estate planners and financial planners, and he had, um, problems in deciding, you know, how to create a content that would be worthwhile. And we created a video and a video, but a newsletter, uh, designed to, uh, focus on a particular topic, which are tech tips for attorneys, for example. And we were able to increase the following from 0 to 375 followers within a week’s time, because it was very select and people who received that message, which he get, they get every week, are very receptive to the information he’s providing, which before it got lost, you know, when he was posting directly to his his own feed and that was not a good thing. And also he was able to share it in the groups that he was part of, which really made a difference of him getting on the radar of some of the major players in those groups, particularly influencers. So that was really making a difference because he was able to get noticed, and before he couldn’t figure out a way how to do that. And that’s something we worked on. And we use AI technology to create the content and also a script for a video. And that really helped save also a lot of time as well, because he didn’t have to hire someone to write these things. He had AI to help create the content, and he was fairly good in writing, and he customized it in his own voice, and it comes out well, and he’s showing a drastic increase in following and has increased his business, I would say, by over 80%. Because of these strategies we use for outreach.

Lee Kantor: And then that’s an example of changing the strategy and having results pretty quickly. Is that normal to have results that quickly, or is that kind of, uh.

Al Kushner: No, it’s it’s pretty quick. If you, you know, we optimize the profile, we focus on that. It took about a week to make sure we got all the right things. We’re looking for particularly recommendations which are crucial to any type of outreach. A lot of times people don’t really emphasize having recommendations as part of the profile, but I’d say it’s, um, essential. And we said that he should reach out to any customers that were satisfied with his work and asked for some kind words. And that was really helpful because he realized that the more recommendation and it’s also important to have current recommendations, you know, recommendations over five years, you know, it gets kind of stale. So we had to update that, and he was able to reach out to his clients, who were also on LinkedIn, and ask for recommendations, and that really helped create his endorsements tremendously. So that really was something that really helped boost. If he didn’t have that amount of recommendations, I would say it would probably take much longer because sometimes that’s a challenge.

Lee Kantor: So is that something that should be part of people’s just regular kind of work on LinkedIn is to ask for recommendations periodically?

Al Kushner: Yeah. Be proactive with it, I would say, because the fact is, is that people will look at this as an endorsement and these are actual, real people who are, you know, stating things that, you know, help them and how the client help them with their problems. So, yeah, it makes a difference.

Lee Kantor: So you view LinkedIn as kind of a must have a platform for entrepreneurs and business people this year and the next couple of years.

Al Kushner: Absolutely. I mean, the, the the platform has grown tremendously since its inception. I would say close to over 900 million listeners, perhaps even more so. That’s pretty sizable compared to other platforms out there. And it is designed kind of geared for entrepreneurs and business, small business owners that who want to have a reach and a way to connect with people that is coming across, being authentic. And that’s really a unique platform to do it on because LinkedIn has so many rich features, particularly if you’re trying to connect with, um, you know, your target audience. There are premium features that really set it apart from what’s out there.

Lee Kantor: So do you recommend? Can you can you use LinkedIn just at the free level, or do you have to pay for more enhanced um, memberships and or do you have to pay to boost content in order to, to get the most value from it?

Al Kushner: You can certainly use the free version, which is fine. A lot of people do that. I myself use Sales Navigator because I find the benefits really worth it. And one of the things that I like about it is that when people check out your profile, you know, who’s actually looked at your profile with the premium version. With the regular version, you don’t get that feature or it’s very limited at best. In addition, if you want to connect with someone, you want to know if they’re active on LinkedIn, while Sales Navigator will allow you to show if that person is currently active. And that can make a difference of of getting an outreach compared to sending a message to someone who may be a CEO of a company, but they’re hardly on LinkedIn at all, and it falls on deaf ears. And if worse, they do an outreach and they continually to reach people who are not accepting their message. The algorithm could look as a person being a spammer. It may even decide to slow down their account or even close the account because of that situation of not knowing who they’re connecting to.

Lee Kantor: Now, if somebody wants to learn more about the book or kind of get in touch with you, get on your calendar to learn more about your consulting? Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Al Kushner: Yeah, and my website is Linked vantage. Com and I also have a free e-book available to help optimize your profile. So go to Linked vantage.com. You can also find my book available on Amazon and Spotify. We released tomorrow actually Independence Day, so check it out. It’s called the I LinkedIn advantage. Unleash the power of AI and dominate the competition. I’m also on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to me and I look forward to connecting.

Lee Kantor: Well, al, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing important work and we appreciate you.

Al Kushner: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you again, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll talk to you next time on High Velocity Radio.

Jeff Nosanov With Orbital Velocity

by

High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Jeff Nosanov With Orbital Velocity
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Jeff Nosanov, Manager at Orbital Velocity.

He spent ten years (2010-2020) in and around NASA (JPL, JHUAPL, NASA HQ, and several startups) in deep space (outer planet/interstellar) mission development, advanced space technology research, and aerospace consulting.

He managed NASA center proposals for several major upcoming NASA Missions including study of the heliosphere, Mars moon exploration, and contributed to the proposal development of the Titan octocopter mission (Saturn’s moon Titan.)

He also developed his own mission concepts to the interstellar boundary using solar sails and to map the caves of the moon with beyond-line of sight imaging as one of the only three-time grantees of the NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts (NIAC) award.

Uniquely, his interstellar boundary mission re-ignited NASA interest in interstellar propulsion, resulting in a series of NASA wide workshops and the JHUAPL/NASA Interstellar Probe concept.

In 2015 he founded a VC- and angel- backed medical device company that used a NASA radar technology to measure vital signs, and went through the technology licensing process from the lab to the field. From 2019 until June 2022 he worked at Amazon Web Services, in the DoD and the Aerospace and Satellite divisions working to bring cloud computing to outer space.

From 2022 to the present he has supported proposal and business development across the federal government ranging from VA claims software development to advanced space weather sensors. He was the first person in the United States to earn an LL.M. degree in Space and Telecom law in 2009.

His proposals have won more than $2B worth of work for his customers, clients, and employers. His professional passions include space exploration, advanced technology commercialization, and Veterans’ issues.

Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Entrepreneurship journey
  • Living in 6 different states
  • Federal business development challenges today
  • Opportunities
  • Charm of Georgia

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show we have Jeff Nosanov. He is with Orbital Velocity. Welcome.

Jeff Nosanov: Hi. Thank you very much for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us a little bit about orbital velocity. How are you serving folks?

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. Well, so orbital velocity is my basically my consulting company. I’ve only been in Atlanta for about a year, but I’ve lived over all over the country. And most of that I was working for NASA in different ways, different organizations. And basically what I do through orbital velocity is help aerospace technology companies find work with the federal government or in the state and state government in some cases. But basically I help people find money.

Lee Kantor: And so what’s your backstory? Have you always been involved in space?

Jeff Nosanov: Well, I have been involved with the space for about 15 years. I’ve always been a space nut kind of personally. And I’ve worked for several NASA centers as an employee, as a consultant, as a researcher. I’ve done work with NASA headquarters. I do a lot of work with universities, which are often major partners in various kinds of technology and space exploration work. And here in Atlanta, I’m basically trying to find ways to contribute to those those national efforts by helping companies that are trying to provide technologies or or missions or really anything that government needs.

Lee Kantor: Now, I guess on the surface, Atlanta doesn’t seem like the logical place to start a consultancy for space. Is there things that we’re not aware of that may be happening, unbeknownst to the kind of regular folks here in Atlanta.

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. So so, you know, right on there. I moved here from my wife’s career, basically, and I do help companies all over the country. But there is actually a very significant advanced technology world here in Atlanta, largely centered around Georgia Tech and surrounding, you know, companies that spun out of that. I also basically, I also do work with any agency that does research. So that includes the medical ones. So that could be at Emory or the hospitals and so on. So basically if it’s an if a government agency gives up money for research or development, I’ve probably helped somebody with a proposal there. So so basically if you’re looking for federal funds that’s I can probably help.

Lee Kantor: Now do you work with startups at all because we have a pretty good startup scene here.

Jeff Nosanov: Yes, I love working with startups. I’ve had one myself. I may again in the future. And it’s really a great time to be a startup because there’s so much money, there’s really stupid amounts of money kind of sloshing around the country, in the world and private equity and venture capital. So it’s a great time to be starting a company. And most of them are going after the largest customer out there, which is the federal government. So a startup is a great partner and an exciting, exciting customer to work with.

Lee Kantor: So, um, let’s look at it through the lens of a startup. Say there’s a startup here in, uh, in metro Atlanta or Georgia. I don’t know if you’re aware, at one point a few years ago in South Georgia, they tried to, um, try to get a spaceport of some kind going in South Georgia that was kind of trying to get some of the stuff that Florida couldn’t get to. They were trying to kind of fill that gap, but I don’t think they were able to get approval for the land usage. Um, but it seems like we’re close enough because obviously Florida is a place for space. But also Huntsville, Alabama is kind of rocket central in their kind of world. So you’d think that Georgia would have opportunities kind of with the entrepreneurial community we have here. But if you’re a startup here, how at what stage do they kind of start talking to you? Do you want to meet them when they have an idea on a napkin, or do they need to have funding? Like where do where do you come in, you know, to kind of get the most out of your expertise?

Jeff Nosanov: I find it exciting at all stages. I mean, I love helping, working, working through business plans and investor pitches and all that. And and I do that for fun. It’s just an interesting and exciting world. But where the where I can really add a lot of value is when they have a promising technology that they may not know exactly what part of the federal government is interested in. Now they need to know that to get venture capital funding. Certainly that will be a question they’re asked, but also the making sense of the federal government, especially right now in July of 2025, is is a real challenge. And that’s something I’ve been doing for 15 years. It’s figuring out what what the government actually wants to buy and how how they want to buy it. So so again, you mentioned the, um, southern Georgia, uh, spaceport question. It really would be a great place because it can launch you can launch stuff south over the or the, over the ocean. Um, for a lot of space reasons, there’s a lot of good reasons to launch to the south. And obviously it’s a it’s a competitive marketplace with Florida nearby. So I don’t think that’s the last we’ll hear of it.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I was pretty bullish about it, actually. I was kind of disappointed that that didn’t kind of, uh, happen. Uh, but you know how this goes. It’s, uh, nothing happens fast. Um. So. Yeah. Is in your work. Is there, uh, something you’ve done that you’re kind of the most rewarding success that you’ve had in your career that you could share?

Jeff Nosanov: Yes, absolutely. So I’ve, I’ve won over $2 billion. That’s with a B of, uh, funding, uh, over my career for different companies and customers. Uh, but what I’m really excited about is actually something that’s launching in a few months. It’s a space mission that will study the, uh, basically the interaction of the sun with the rest of the solar system, that I could go on and on about that, but it’s basically studying the sun. And, um, so in 2018, I was a consultant at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, and I was a proposal manager for this mission. And, um, it’s been quite a journey since then in all kinds of ways. And, and this mission is still going on is not affected by the proposed cuts to NASA, which is another subject I could go on about, but I’ll try to spare you. But basically, this thing is going to launch into space in a few months, and I plan to be there. Hopefully they’ll invite me. If not, I’ll just show up and it will actually be the first the first space launch I’ve ever seen. And it will be really exciting for that to be a rocket launch with a mission on it that I helped make happen. So and I hope to bring my family there as well. So that’s probably the the proudest, uh, the proudest professional accomplishment for me.

Lee Kantor: How what does it like like how do you kind of wrap your mind around working on projects that you’re you’re so passionate, everybody’s fired up, and it just takes years and years and years and years before something happens. Like, how do you mentally prepare for that kind of a long term outlook?

Jeff Nosanov: I love that question because because the answer is really that it this kind of work in space and, uh, and in, in any kind of advanced technology that usually has a long term, a long term timeline. You really kind of have to deliberately adjust your your context, your frame of mind. So, you know, we’ve been exploring the universe for about a hundred years. It was about a hundred years ago, actually, that the something called the rocket equation was was discovered or invented that actually showed that we could launch things from the Earth. You know, that wasn’t a game that wasn’t a given. If the Earth was about 10% bigger, in fact, that wouldn’t be possible at all, at least not with with the way we do it now. So. So it’s really only been 100 years, and we’ve really only been doing it consistently for about 70 years. And that’s that’s a lifetime, right? And it really is a fact that most meaningful scientific explorations of the solar system, they take ten years minimum, ten or 20 or 30 even. And when you when you kind of fall in love with the subject the way I did and so many other people do.

Jeff Nosanov: It just puts a different perspective on your life and your career. I know people who, if they’re lucky, they will have one completed space mission in their entire working career. And that will be that will be everything. That will be an enormous achievement. It’s just the way the universe works. And I’ve found that one of the most rewarding parts about this work is it forces that kind of humble humility, rather, in the face of very literally, the universe and the rules that the universe has that we we have to follow. We can’t we can’t bend them. Really. So so that’s really the only way I can answer that question is it forces a humility before the universe that I think is pretty healthy. I mean, the universe is what it is. You know, we live on a planet full of water and air and food largely, and it’s right there for us. But but, um, you leave the planet, you got to change your your frame of mind because it’s not going to. Not going to make it easy for us. So so that’s really how I think about it.

Lee Kantor: Now what do you, um, what do you say to people that are that think that going into space that’s, uh, wasteful use of resources that, that why aren’t we spending anywhere near the amount of energy in the oceans and that are right here that we barely know anything about that. And that’s like right under our feet.

Jeff Nosanov: So I love the question. And it’s a really important one. And and it usually comes from, um, some misunderstandings about how this all works. So we’re not just sending money into space and, you know, blowing it up, blowing it away. We’re we’re spending it on Earth here in our communities and our institutions and our our our neighbors salaries. I mean, all of that spending is local. And, um, it’s really a really small amount of money, actually, there’s a pretty consistent, uh, mistaken assumption going all the way back to Apollo. Because the Apollo program in the 60s, it really did consume 5% of the federal budget. And there’s a whole bunch written about that and how that never would have happened if not for Kennedy’s assassination. And and they would have shut it down because of that expense, if not for Kennedy’s assassination and all of that. But a lot of people still think that’s close to the number, but it’s it’s less than one tenth of that. It’s it’s 0.2% or something like that. 0.3. Uh, it’s trivial. Really. And, and and on top of that, uh, and keeping in mind all that spending is, is on American citizens and American companies. Uh, every single economic study of NASA has shown that it either returns between 2 or 7 times the amount back to the economy.

Jeff Nosanov: So so it’s a net gain for for the country and the economy. Um. There’s a couple of interesting examples that I like. For example, in the 60s, in the early semiconductor industry, the early computer chips of the modern sort. Nasa was one of the biggest customers that literally built the American semiconductor industry, because NASA needed a consistent supply of them for Apollo, and they needed to be reliable. So so there’s all kinds of stories from the last 50 years, basically, that that NASA not just created markets for technologies that would then later, uh, I should say, not just use them, but literally created markets for industries that the US would then lead in for decades. So that’s really my answer to that question is it’s it’s not a negative. It doesn’t actually cost us anything. It actually returns much more than we spend. And as for the oceans, I agree there’s we know more about other planets than we do about parts of the ocean. And I imagine if we if we had that sort of scientific commitment to the oceans, we probably have similar economic returns also. So. So that’s that’s my answer. And, um, I hope to be part of sharing that more broadly. So I’m really glad that you asked me.

Lee Kantor: So for you it’s an and not an or like we should be doing more kinds of research and studying all kinds of things, including space and the oceans. It’s not like we should be cutting back in either.

Jeff Nosanov: Right. And the Arctic and the poles, I mean, there’s there’s the big the I think one of the challenges that science communication faces is you can’t really prove that spending money here is going to produce benefits there. But you can look at you can look backwards and show that it almost always does. Another example from Apollo is this is actually something that a distant relative of mine worked on. Um, basically any kind of, uh, kidney Dialysis that that any kind of device that that does kidney dialysis, it that technology that allowed that to be invented was developed under the Apollo program. It was used for fuel filters and things like that. But but that kind of membrane technology was developed for exploring moon and then became fundamental to keeping millions of Americans alive today. So. So sometimes you have weird connections like that. Nobody would have expected that to be an output of the Apollo program. Um, but it was. So we, uh, we should be doing things like curing, trying to cure cancer. But, uh, it turns out that if you set even not more ambitious goals, if you set really ambitious goals like sending humans to the moon or Mars, it turns out you have to invent a lot of stuff along the way. And there’s really creative people, uh, who take those inventions and say, well, we can actually use that for this or that. And those things go on to create enormous markets, uh, in industries and of course, in the other in the case I mentioned save lives. So. So again, it’s I could go on about this for hours but but it really does not actually cost us money to do this exploration. It makes us money eventually.

Lee Kantor: Right. And but it’s just hard to tell people that they should spend money now on things that there might be unintended consequences later that’s going to benefit everybody just by being this curious and this, uh, trying to solve problems that are hard.

Jeff Nosanov: Right? Right. And, and, uh, I think a, a mixture of short and long term research is probably the better the better policy. But but it’s hard to have those kinds of rational policy discussions right now. And I’ll leave that there.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, in your work over the years, is it, um, is there any like what are the qualities of a young person? Are you seeing more young people attracted to this? Are they getting kind of burnt out?

Jeff Nosanov: Um, actually, you know, there’s there’s it’s a wonderful time as a young person to be going into space and scientific fields because, um, there’s huge amounts of, of small companies that are entering the market. I mean, SpaceX really showed that, that individual companies. Now it helps if you’re if you start with $1 billion or more. But there are a lot of small companies that are, uh, that are making meaningful advances and not just in the US. So it’s a great time as a kid to fall in love with space. And, you know, uh, political wins here and there aside, um, the whole world is really embracing these, uh, these technologies and companies. Um, and so it’s, it’s I would encourage anyone to study these things. And again, if you study physics, if you study engineering, these are this is objective reality, right. Like you can it’s never bad to study objective reality. We need buildings to stand up straight. You know we need bridges to stay. We need plans to fly. Um. And sometimes I think in, in our in our day to day community and, and social and political lives, it’s easy to forget that, um, we need our cars to operate without engines exploding. You know, we need we need to respect nature in that way. And physics and engineering. It gets back to to what I was saying earlier about, um, um, it’s never a waste to to learn and explore because that’s the real world that we live in. So, um.

Lee Kantor: Right. But it seems like the we’re always trying to have that balance of yeah, that’s great that it it’s almost like a nice to have where we got to have, you know, things working here like air traffic controllers have to do their job today and, you know, going to Mars. It seems like a nice idea, but I don’t know if I need that today. But, you know, in order to go to Mars, we got to do work today. Um, that won’t show up for five years.

Jeff Nosanov: There’s a great example from 100 years ago that there were people exploring quantum physics. And it was it was this was right after the, the, the the person who ran the patent office who famously said, I think in 1890 something. He said, oh, uh, every everything that’s been invented is everything that will be invented, has been invented already. And this was 1890. And so you have these scientists studying quantum physics, which was was incomprehensibly unrelatable to people. But it but then 20 or 30 years later, the computer was invented. And it those principles absolutely underlie every single minute of every single day of every single person on earth, because otherwise our electronics wouldn’t work and our computers wouldn’t work. So. So a nation, uh, you know, an organization ought to have a kind of short, medium and long term, uh, approach to these things. So, yeah, we need to solve the immediate problems. But if we don’t, if we don’t explore the unknowns, you know, first of all, someone else is going to and then they will lead those industries. Um, but, you know, it takes a balance.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you know which kind of, uh, I’ll call it a quote unquote moonshot. Should you be focusing in on? How do you prioritize? Like, you know, a lot of people want to go to Mars now. Uh, people are exploring the edges of the galaxies. Um, how do you and you mentioned this, you know, going doing research towards the sun. How do you kind of prioritize and go, you know what? This is where we have to put our chips.

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. Well, that’s another great question. And, and, uh, it reminds me of a really interesting scenario that happened in the, in the late 60s, which was, you know, when you, when you’re when no human being or no machine has ever left the Earth, You know, it’s pretty obvious where to go, which is to go up, you know? Uh, and the first place to send humans is pretty obviously the moon, because it’s the closest thing. It’s the easiest thing to get to. It’s obviously still exceptionally difficult, but it’s still the easiest thing. And NASA had a real question after that, which was, well, now what? Now that we’ve shown we can leave the earth and send machines and even people places. What do we do next? And and the history of NASA since then, which I could again go on all day. But I’ll try not to. Uh, it kind of really reflects that question. I mean, um, NASA started sending robotic vehicles to other planets first to Mars and Venus, which were the closest ones in either direction, and eventually leading to having sent robotic vehicles either to or past all of the planets in the solar system. And, you know, we haven’t sent humans anywhere since other than than the space station.

Jeff Nosanov: So so that’s a really important question. What do we do next? And the way NASA handles it. Kind of connecting back to my work is with with competitive proposal opportunities, where the federal government, through the National Academies will basically say, here are some scientific questions of interest. And they’ll actually be a sort of competitive process where organizations build teams and they say, well, okay, we have these technologies. We can go, we can go explore the rocks on Mars and we can ask the questions about life on Mars, or we can go study the clouds of Venus and so on. And so there’s no great easy answer to your question other than an ongoing, ongoing discussion between experts and policymakers and and people like that. And, and what we’ve seen throughout the history of NASA since then is pretty much all of those challenges will yield and demand technology developments that become useful elsewhere. Um, so again, another great question. Uh, there’s no easy answer to it, but the history of what we’ve done so far kind of, I think shows a pretty reasonable approach.

Lee Kantor: Now, what about the input like you mentioned earlier, of now you have billionaires that have pet projects. Um, and, you know, they have resources to do some interesting things. Um, are they kind of skewing those priorities to what their kind of interests are?

Jeff Nosanov: Uh, that’s a very interesting question. And it and it I’ll start off by talking about space. Space. What they did basically was there was a business observation that the bar for contractor performance for the federal government was actually really low. And I mean by contractor, I mean the aerospace contractors of the late 20th century that were building rockets, uh, they were really good at at making a lot of money on SpaceX launch. And what SpaceX realized was that, hey, if we build this all in-house and we we charge for it roughly at cost. Plus, you know, a modest fee, they could reduce the cost by a factor by, by 90%. And that still is the case. And that’s why SpaceX just celebrated 500 launches of its of its Falcon nine vehicle. Um, now. So that’s a great that’s a really positive example of of industry and, and market forces really reducing the cost of, of a critical, critical need. Now, uh, other subjects, I mean, the, the, the philanthropy of billionaires or, or the investment of, of billionaires can, can really jumpstart a lot of technology projects, uh, in ways that the federal government would take a lot longer to fund. Um, so I think it’s a great it’s a great part. It’s a it’s a wonderful outcome of basically the enormous economic success of the United States over the last 50 years is that there even are people with that amount of money that rival governments in some cases.

Jeff Nosanov: Um, now, what we’re seeing now is, is, uh, is something a little more concerning to me, which is some, uh, some of the wealthiest people in the US actually trying to try to kind of capture some of the what used to be federal government priorities, like medical research and things like that. Uh, in order to then have more control of those services in the marketplace. At least that’s my perception. Um, that’s the only way I can make sense again, without getting super political. That’s the only way I can make sense of reducing things like NIH budgets and and research. Uh, is by uh, is by saying, well, if you have the resources to do that privately, well, then you also control that. You control the availability and pricing of the ultimate services. So I think it’s a it’s a net positive Because, um, that kind of largesse can be applied to research questions faster. But, you know, as anything at that scale, there’s there’s going to be some, some ethical considerations that, you know, I think are worth paying attention to.

Lee Kantor: And if the if it was through the government, it sounds like the outcomes or those unintended consequences were for the betterment of all. Whereas if a private company is doing it, then they kind of lock down that new. I mean.

Jeff Nosanov: Yeah, that that’s that’s sort of where that’s sort of the conclusion I’m, I’m coming to. I mean, any specifics are a lot more complicated. I’m certainly not going to argue that the government is the most efficient organization out there. And certainly companies are able to capture publicly funded research for their own private gain. I mean, that happens in pharma all the time. Um, but in principle, at least, having public research organizations and private, I think is a good mix for our society. Um, you know, with, with the acknowledgment that it would take the rest of the day to really break down all of the pieces.

Lee Kantor: Right. But conceptually, though, public private is probably the best thing, knowing that each. There’s no perfect one. And. Right. And it’s going to be messy no matter what. Which way you go.

Jeff Nosanov: And you don’t really want you don’t really want the government operating a factory, a medicine factory, but you also don’t want, um, you also don’t want a single company controlling, all.

Lee Kantor: Right, to have a monopoly on that.

Jeff Nosanov: Right. Exactly. So, so these aren’t really new, you know, economic debates. They probably go back to, you know, the, the, the enlightenment, you know, but but, um, it’s rare that as we’re seeing in 25, there are such drastic changes in these things being, being, you know, put out there, uh, particularly Early today and literally today. As you know, the the the federal budget is in is in debate. So these are all things that that someone competing for federal money would want to keep in mind. And some of the, some of the contexts that I bring to my customers.

Lee Kantor: So what do you need more of? How can we help you? What what are some of the things that you want to accomplish in the short term, in the long term, and what resources do you need to make those happen?

Jeff Nosanov: Well, I really appreciate that that question. I mean, what I always want to do is meet people, uh, who are interested in solving these big problems and whether or not they become my customers is is less important because I just like meeting people like that in general. But I can also help people like that find a pathway to creating something that can can do something big or really help people. Um, so so that’s really what I hope if anyone’s listening, who who works at a company like that, or has an idea or doing some kind of research. Those are the kinds of people that I want to meet.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, if somebody wants to learn more and connect with you, what’s the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Jeff Nosanov: Yeah, it’s, uh, orbital velocity dot space. And I love that both our companies have the velocity in it. Um, and I imagine my email or phone number might be in the show notes for this, but you can just go to my website, Orbital Velocity Space and send me a note there.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your story today, doing such important work. We appreciate you.

Jeff Nosanov: Thank you. And likewise, and it’s a pleasure to speak with you and the the local community.

Lee Kantor: All right. This Lee Kantor we’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Cynthia L. Bentzen-Mercer With Bentzen Performance Partners

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High Velocity Radio
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Cynthia L. Bentzen-Mercer With Bentzen Performance Partners
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Dr. Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer, Founder of Bentzen Performance Partners, is a USA Today bestselling author, executive coach, and internationally recognized expert in human capital strategy.

With over 30 years of C-suite experience across industries, she empowers individuals and organizations to challenge limits, invest intentionally, and unlock untapped potential.

She is the creator of the Now, Near, Next career framework, the Human Capital Investment Strategy (HCIS), and the 7-Minute Pivot, a daily practice for meaningful change. Through her masterclasses, books, and speaking engagements, she equips professionals to reclaim their power, reframe their path, and outperform their past.

Connect with Cynthia on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • About Bentzen Performance Partners
  • How 7 minutes a day can help you move towards something better when you feel stuck in your career
  • The first investment someone should make in themselves when everything feels like a loss
  • How the Now, Near, Next framework can help reframe your journey

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

HVR_07022025_CynthiaBentzenMercer_1.mp3

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer, who is the Founder of Bentzen Performance Partners. Welcome.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Thank you so much, Lea. It’s good to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your company. How are you serving folks?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, so I spent over 30 years in corporate America and then had the opportunity to really turn that that time and my passion into serving individuals and organizations. Basically, I work at the intersection of strategy and soul. I help people find what they love to do and make a living at it. And I help organizations figure out how to find those individuals so that they can be high performing organizations.

Lee Kantor: So do you work primarily with organizations or do you work primarily with individuals in their career?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, so I work with CEOs and C-suite executives that are really around succession planning, organizational structure. But a large part of what I do is work with women and men, one on one executive coaching, helping them figure out how to be release their full potential in either the career that they’re in or in a lot of cases. I’m working with individuals that are feeling restless and seeking something new and different, helping them find their way.

Lee Kantor: Is there kind of a triggering moment that they come to a realization that, hey, I need some help here, maybe I ought to contact the executive code?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, unfortunately, it seems to be that that’s when I get the phone call. You know, it would be wonderful if individuals were seeking executive coaching before. They’re feeling restless. Think about any professional sports team or professional people in the entertainment business. You know, most of us have a coach to really continue to hone our skills. Unfortunately, in the business world, oftentimes we we do put it off until we get that that tugging feeling. And our research has found that women in particular are so busy with their head down, working hard, supporting everyone else around them that at some point they look up and they think, oh my goodness, the world has kind of passed me by and I have more value to add, more talent to offer, and I’m just feeling kind of stuck or stagnant. And that’s that’s usually when I get the phone call.

Lee Kantor: Now it’s interesting you brought back brought up sports because I never looked at it kind of holistically in this manner. But pretty much in any professional sport, that person has a coach, and it’s just perfectly logical for them to have a coach like no one thinks twice about it. And they proudly walk around with their coach at their side. But people in business, especially at the levels you’re probably dealing with, they’re probably making more money than those athletes are for the most part. A lot of them. And they are hesitant to partner with a coach. Why do you think there would be such a disconnect where it’s so commonplace in one environment? But in another environment, it’s unusual.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah. And you head on a really a really important point too, right? Well, they’re they’re making a ton of money in the sports professional fields, as you mentioned. You’ve got executives making multimillion dollar decisions that are affecting not only themselves and the organizations that they’re running, but the livelihoods of others. Um, so there’s a lot at stake. It’s it’s a it’s a high risk environment for a lot of individuals. You know, unfortunately, I think the disconnect is when we think about a quarterback or we think about, um, you know, a pitcher, for example, or even a singer or an actor. And it’s really visible that natural talent is so visible. You know, we have coaches to correct the golf swing or to really fine tune, um, elements of the physicality, but that’s all raw, natural talent that they’re continuing to develop. And it seems just really intuitive in business because it’s so hard to put your finger on natural talent without a really clear understanding. I think people are misinformed to think that just time in the job is enough, and then almost that there’s a embarrassment about having an executive coach. I have to often talk to executives about the fact that this is the most important thing you can do to continue to unleash your potential and grow exponentially. This is not I don’t do a remediation coaching right. I don’t work with individuals that that are broken and need fixed. I work with high achievers that want to fully exercise their incredible potential.

Lee Kantor: And it’s. Isn’t it unusual, though, for them to be proactive and hire you before they need you? Really, but just to kind of maintain their skills and to have that sounding board and that, uh, you know, kind of fresh eyes on things, I, I would think that in their work they, they do some coaching themselves and without thinking, but it isn’t kind of as intuitive to hire a coach for themselves. It’s just interesting to me kind of how how they eventually get around to it, a lot of them. But it isn’t kind of an easy move or a go to move early on.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? Right. It usually happens when they are up against a challenge or a barrier or feeling, as we said earlier, sort of stuck or stagnant rather than saying, where can I find somebody that’s at the top of their game that has the kind of credentials that can really push me to think bigger, to step out of my comfort zone, to see things from maybe a different perspective. Um, obviously we rely on the people around us. We create great teams and surround ourselves with great talent. But there’s there’s something unique and different by having somebody who’s purely objective from the outside, that in a safe space is pushing you beyond what you think you can do.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you think that something that might improve this whole relationship between high performers and coaches is if more and more organizations just kind of had coaching as part of what you get when you work at this company. Like if more and more people got to experience coaching, maybe even earlier on their career, they’d be it would be they’d be faster to, um, work with the coach as their career progressed.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Breast 100%. And I mean, there are there are some companies out there that have recognized the value in that. Um, far too few. However, um, thinking about particularly your executive team or individuals that are starting to reach that vice president and above level, they are making bigger decisions affecting more lives, impacting your budget differently. And it isn’t the skill and knowledge that they need to work on at that point, right? The skill and knowledge can be learned that that you can read a book, you can go to a class, you can you can consult. I mean, there’s a lot of places to to build your skills and knowledge. The executive coach really comes in from the perspective of having you lean into the non teachable is how do you take a creativity talent or a strategic agility talent or an influence talent that which is really part of your hardwiring and your DNA. And then working with an experienced coach. Figure out how do you develop that to exponential success, so that you’re really realizing all that you’re capable of, and not limiting yourself to maybe what’s comfortable, because we all struggle with pushing ourselves a little outside of what what feels comfortable from time to time.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with somebody, um, what how do you kind of manage their expectations when they finally have the courage up to to work with a coach? Now you have to have to be on the same page of what is possible, what is, you know, going to be like a longer term, um, kind of a journey. What, like how are you managing kind of, um, kind of the day to day. What am I going to get from this? Like, how am I going to see an ROI? I don’t know, are they even asking you ROI questions about this, or do they understand that this is kind of a you’re going to be in it for a minute. This isn’t going to solve your problems by the end of the week.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? Right. Both. And um, so absolutely. Um, it’s an investment. It, you know, getting a really, um, strong executive coach is, is an investment. It’s the investment in you and and your career and your potential, but also, um, organizationally, for those organizations that are, uh, pouring into and, and funding this for, for the people that they’re relying upon. For me, it really starts with it’s it’s a mutual commitment. Um, out of the gate, you’re going to get out of it what you put into it. So the very first thing that I talk about is really when we talk about coaching, it’s less about me giving direction, advice and guidance. It’s a lot about I ask a lot of intuitive, provocative questions we’re really getting underneath. Barriers that are holding the executive back. Things that are slowing their decision making or in some cases, times that they need to channel their passion differently and and slow down their decision making. What what we know is most people have most of the answers inside them, but they don’t have a safe place to really vet that in a way that they can be vulnerable. They can think through all the options and ultimately find the right end result. And so they’re going to make better decisions. They’re going to going to build a better team. They’re going to have a longer term strategy when they have a place to really, um, unleash all of that, that knowledge and not get in their own way. Men and women both have a tendency, women more so based on our research. Shows that men and women both have a tendency to second guess themselves, to put up barriers or filters just based on past experience or self-doubt. And so my job is to get them out of their own way, and the profitability and the performance naturally flows.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re trying to help somebody get out of their own way, what are you doing that through? Like a rhythm of a weekly call? Are you giving them homework that they do every day? Are you giving them certain tools that they implement, you know, during crisis? Like like what is kind of the deliverable to your clients? Mhm.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: So traditionally I meet with an executive every other week for an hour. That’s sort of the cadence with which we meet. And we start every meeting with two questions. What is the goal they have for that day’s session. And what does success look like. And we have established goals at the beginning of the engagement. Really, the shortest engagement is six months. We’re honestly generally just scratching the surface at that point. A year and beyond tends to be an engagement where we really start to gain a rhythm and see the results. But they can they come to that meeting with. It could be anything that’s in retrospect. I had a conversation that didn’t go well. I’m trying to implement something that doesn’t seem to be sticking. Um, so it could be past tense and we’re unpacking that. Or it could be a future focused. They have a big investor meeting. They have an upcoming board meeting. They’re making a big decision on an acquisition. They need to make a significant structural change. Um, and so the goal may be just getting some clarity around the path forward. And success would look like having that by the end of that call. So we work on very immediate in the moment Situations that they’re dealing with and finding the path so that they can move forward with those. And then we typically have a follow up on the next meeting. How did it go? What did we learn? Um, and then where do you take that? Where do you take that from here? In terms of homework, one of the techniques that I encourage every one of you listening is the seven minute pivot.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: And so what that means is you are spending seven minutes a day focusing on a key prompt that’s most on your mind that day. Most of us don’t take any time to just be quiet and introspective. And so, um, what I encourage you to do is you set a timer. We know neurologically that creates focus. It creates accountability. You set a timer, you get rid of all other distractions. You get a pen and paper. Because we know that that is the best way to sort of get thoughts out of our mind and onto paper and we start with a prompt like what is this? What is the one thing I feel that’s really holding me back in this moment? And then what is one thing I can do today? One small thing I can do today to move and pivot in a slightly different direction, to move forward, to start, to create some energy and momentum. And if you think about a seven minute pivot, when you’re doing your seven minute pivot every day, you are investing 2555 minutes a year. It’s amazing how much you can change the trajectory of where you’re heading. And so living into these prompts, when you take this time, you find that you have more control, more agency and more insight and clarity about where you’re heading.

Lee Kantor: So that’s one of the things you teach your clients is how to do this. Seven minutes exercise is in the morning or evening or doesn’t matter.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: It’s entirely up to. To you. The most important thing is you do it. That you do it. We know in for again studying men and women. Um, a lot of similarities in terms of busy chaos. Not enough time to to remain silent. And for different reasons. So the reality is, find the time in your day that you can unapologetically guilt free. Invest in you. Everyone can find seven minutes, right? And it’s more than five. Less than ten. And it’s just that moment to say, how do I move in a tiny way toward what I’m what I want and not feel like I have to make the giant leap?

Lee Kantor: And that’s a more proof of on the power of compounding.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? 100%. Yes. Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned, um, men and women kind of separately. Is there a different strategies when you’re working with women than you have when you’re working with men?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: So it honestly, it depends on what the goal of the individual. But what I will tell you is, having studied in my first book, now near next, we did a global study of women, professional women, five race ethnicities, four countries, a 25 year age span, multi industry background, all very successful. And the one thing we found specifically in uniquely among women around the world is that at some point and often multiple times, you grow restless, you feel stuck, you feel stagnant. And we uncovered that is because you feel un actualized. You feel like you have more talent to give, more value to add, etc. the difference with our wonderful male counterparts is culturally social norms, etc.. Men tend to be looking up, looking forward. Raising their hand, uh, putting their name in the hat. Women have traditionally been conditioned to put our heads down, work hard, and wait to be tapped. And because we statistically are so busy pouring into everyone else around us, whether that’s raising children, being active in our communities, we’re, you know, leaning into our spouse’s career or our partners profession is that that is a convenient opportunity. Right. So we we dutifully put our head down, we work hard, we pour into everyone else. And then at some point when it’s not too late, but definitely to the point of really feeling uncomfortable, we’re sort of frustrated with the fact that why haven’t we been promoted? Or why aren’t we in a different place from a salary perspective? And so around the bean answer to your question, oftentimes more often when I’m working with women, they are coming from a place of I have more that I want professionally, more aspirations that I want to lean into. And I’m working with them on intentionality more often when I’m working with men, um, I’m working with them on continued talent development, succession planning, um, strategic decision making. It sort of depends on where the client is showing up.

Lee Kantor: Uh, I interviewed a coach who coached women, and they brought something up to me that I had never heard of. But maybe you can kind of validate this if this is what you found as well. Uh, they said that when they work with women and a lot of women won’t apply for a job unless they have every single criteria of the job, where a man will say, like, I’ll figure it out. Like, close enough. I’ll figure it out. Number one. And number two is, if offered a job, the man will negotiate more times than not, and the woman will just say, yeah, it will just agree without negotiating.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yes. There’s actually some Harvard Business Review did a study years and years ago, and it’s been it’s been validated multiple times since that. Exactly. That that, you know, women tend to want to tick all the boxes. So if I can’t tick 9 or 10 out of ten boxes, I don’t apply at all. Just as you said, where men and I always say this, I say this to you, you know, you women listening it. This is not an indictment of men. This is we need to steal a page out of your playbook, right? We we need to we need to be looking up and looking forward and and leading with talent and know that we too, can learn and figure it out on the job, just as our male counterparts have the confidence to do so. And not only do we often do, women often not negotiate, but when when you do negotiate Eight. As women. It is apologetic. I’m sorry, but if it. You know. I really was hoping this or that. Um, rather than just explicitly negotiating the agreement I’ve had. I’ve had clients apologized to me for, uh, various things, wanting to negotiate agreement or move things around. And I’m like, okay, time out. The very first thing we’re going to do is we’re not apologizing for this. You know, I’m celebrating the fact that you have agency and that you are, um, looking out for yourself and you are advocating for yourself that is to be celebrated, not apologized for.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with women in this manner, is this something that is like an aha moment or is it something they feel uncomfortable with, or do they begrudgingly kind of go along with this when you bring this up?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: 99% of the time it is, it is either an aha or it is a yeah, I know I really need to work on that very self. I don’t know that I’ve ever come across somebody that where it’s been begrudgingly, because they’re really coming from a place of wanting more and showing up, wanting to actualize their full and boundless potential and and a bit wondering why they haven’t yet. So it’s either a oh, that makes sense that that that qualifying language is holding me back, or my own limiting self narrative is holding me back and or they’re aware of it, but they just don’t know how to get out of their own way. And so we work on confidence. We work on using more affirming language. We work on their own narrative track, um, and for sometimes with minutes, um, and women. But it can be the opposite. Right. It’s, it’s sort of how do you channel that energy in a way that, um, people are going to be more open to and perhaps less off putting?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I would think that, um, fear is holding the women back and overconfidence is holding the men back like. Bingo.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, absolutely.

Lee Kantor: Like, the man thinks, yeah, I got this. No problem. And they don’t got this, and it is a problem. And the woman is not attempting to try because they feel like they they don’t want to screw it up, so they won’t try that.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That is right. And again, that’s a generalization.

Lee Kantor: Right. Right. I’m not talking about every individual.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah. For you who you know you may be thinking well gosh that seems you know, that seems like a real line in the sand. But I would tell you statistically based on research and data. That’s absolutely right. And, um, in some ways, I’d rather say, whoa, you know, whoa than giddy up. I’d in some ways it’s, it’s easier to work with somebody. You’re trying to slow down a little bit, um, than than sometimes lighting a fire. Um, But. But when? When the ambition is there and you can see what is holding you back. And that the limiting narrative in your head is what is keeping you from really realizing all that you have to offer. That’s that’s when the awakening starts, and that’s when you really start to do the work and, and then see the fruits of your labor. And the beautiful thing for the individual, which is why I say work. I work at the intersection of soul and strategy for the individual. It’s self actualizing. It’s it’s fulfilling. I begin to make more money. I begin to see my aspirational goals come to fruition. And for the leader or the organization, this individual is high performing. They’re loyal, they’re stepping up. They can be part of your succession plan. So, you know, in this workforce that we have today. I mean, that’s a that’s a beautiful thing to have a highly engaged, high achieving individual with aspirational goals to grow within your organization.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I would think that once you kind of get them to buy into what you see, probably clear, much clearer than they do, is that all of a sudden it’s an unlock. And now it’s like the sky’s the limit. Now there’s nothing holding them back. Is some of your work just kind of demonstrating to them? Like showing them like a portfolio of their successes so that they believe that they are worthy and that they can do the thing that they want to do.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Well, I do two things in that regard. That’s a that’s a really great question. One of the things that I find really helpful is to have my client create their highlight reel, not necessarily a video of that, but just for them to sit down. This is a great a great opportunity with the seven minute pivot. They can sit down with a prompt of what are the accomplishments I’m most proud of professionally over the last five years, and they create their highlight reel. So when you do that, you begin to really sort of recognize and affirm, wow, I really have done a lot of things that are pretty important and powerful, despite my own, um, lack of confidence at times. And so we talk about those things and really begin to have you see yourself in a completely different light. And then the second thing is, and this is in my my book that’s coming out in February, Human Capital Investment Strategy is that I am a social psychologist by background. I’m a huge student of positive psychology, and I believe everyone should be using predictive assessments when they’re thinking about selection and promotion. And so my clients have the opportunity to participate in a highly validated predictive behavioral assessment that looks at what are your natural talents, that hardwiring that DNA, that you can’t help yourself at spontaneous. It’s consistent. You do it with excellence, and it feels great when you’re doing it really, which is how we how we identify talent. And and then we talk about those superpowers, you know, we look at what are your superpowers and how do you lean into those superpowers to be the absolute best professional? Um, and oh, by the way, pat yourself on the back in that those those are uniquely your own and the opportunity to develop those to exponential success. Um, it’s right in front of us.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I think it’s so important. I know this was something my wife did that I thought was brilliant. Um, Every year she worked with a big company in corporate America for many years, and she had an annual review. And that was very stressful for her because whenever they would happen, she’d have to remember what she did for the whatever that year. And instead of at some point, she said, you know what? Every time something good happened, I’m just going to put it in the folder. I’m just going to make a folder, and I’m just going to just put it in. I’m not even going to think about it. I’m just going to put it in a folder. And then when it came time for the annual review, she just takes out the folder. Right. And it’s like all these things that may seem little at the time, but you just look at them and you see this big pile that you’ve accomplished in a year. You can’t help but feel more confident. You can’t help but feel that you’re worthy of that raise and like it just changes how you see yourself. Because people just take for granted all the good work they’re doing day after day. They don’t. They’re not clocking it, and it’s just happening and they’re moving on to the next thing because there’s another crisis tomorrow. So this gave her a point where she saw it visually and it’s like, wow, that’s a lot. You know, I am worth this. This makes sense. You know, there’s no there’s nothing holding me back.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: I love that I think that is a great tip. And when you’re having those moments throughout the year where you are questioning or second guessing or wondering if you’re enough or if you are ready, etc., pull out that file folder and reflect on all that you’ve done up to that point. I’m working with a client right now and she falls into a similar category we were mentioning earlier, where she’s hesitant to apply for things that she doesn’t meet all of the criteria, and even struggling, putting her resume together and really having it be a reflection of all that she’s done. And through the process of her refining her resume and looking at these job openings. She said to me recently, she said, you know, I forget how much experience that I have and how much I’ve actually accomplished in all of these areas. It’s just sort of a blur until you start to really put pen to paper. Um, and it was a it was a real ego boost and she frankly needed it. So I think your wife’s, uh, your wife’s tip is an excellent one.

Lee Kantor: And it’s one of those things that when you see it, then it’s easier for you to own it. Like, you don’t have to apologize for it. You don’t like it’s real. It’s not an opinion anymore. There’s paper and facts behind it. It’s not just you, you know, saying an affirmation in the mirror like this is a pile of of data that’s saying that you are this.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? It actually, it actually makes me think about some of the, uh, the advice that I give related to when you are pitching, Be it a promotion or a job expansion, or even doing your own self reflection. Self review as part of a performance review is to do just that. It’s to focus on not the feelings or the opinion, but on the data and the results. Because again, referring to women specifically, we have a hard time sometimes owning those accomplishments. We’re conditioned more often than not to be humble and gracious. And so it’s easy to deflect and not draw attention to that, that that oftentimes for women is seen as self-promoting or self advocating, um, in a negative way. And so when when you put that language into the team and I have accomplished X, Y, and Z and we and and the result of that were these data. Then suddenly it doesn’t feel so much uncomfortable, like I’m drawing attention to my my extraordinary, um, results on my own. Um, but I’m doing it through facts and data rather than opinion and emotion. And I’m also when, when appropriate, honoring the people that were part of that.

Lee Kantor: Right. It’s not personal anymore. This is just the facts.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That’s exactly.

Lee Kantor: Right. And that a lot of people take some of these, you know, whether they they get the opportunity or they don’t, they take it personally. And um, so if you can eliminate some of that, then it may make them more confident to, you know, aim higher. Mhm.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Mhm. Right. When you, when, when you take out the I don’t want to brag and you put it into facts and data that speak for themselves. Um everybody wins because you’re more apt to share that information, and the person on the receiving end is more apt to hear it from the language of business. The end result of the behavior or the action.

Lee Kantor: You just might have to help them connect the dots that it was you that were driving it. That’s all.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. Yeah. Every now and then you have to, um. The team and I did that since.

Lee Kantor: Right. Yeah. Sometimes you got to remind people.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yes, this is true.

Lee Kantor: So, um, if somebody wants to learn more, get Ahold of, uh, some of your books, uh, some of your time, uh, some of your team. What is the. You have a website. You have a best way to connect.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: I do, I do. It’s my it’s my name. So Cynthia at Cynthia Benson mercer.com and my last name, I’m sure I’ll be in the show notes because it’s a unique spelling. Um, I offer a free strategy call so you can book directly with me, um, for a free strategy call just to kind of assess where you’re at and what you’re looking for. And, um, if if I have the, um, what what you’re looking for, and I’m a good fit to get you there. Um, you can also pick up a copy of my latest book, and the one that’ll be out is in presale. And, um, I also do a fair amount of public speaking. So if you’re looking for a keynote speaker for your organization or association, um, on leadership and intentionality, it is one of my favorite things to do. And I would I would love to, uh, love to see you in a conference.

Lee Kantor: Well, Cynthia, thank you so much for sharing your story today. It was such a joy. Uh, you’re doing such important work, and we appreciate you.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Thank you so much, Lee. Thanks for having me.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Joy Ellen Levin With Gen X Exec Encore

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High Velocity Radio
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Joy Ellen Levin With Gen X Exec Encore
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Joy Levin is the Founder and President of Gen X Exec Encore.

In working with Gen X high-achieving professionals, she recognizes that for many, this next phase isn’t about traditional retirement—it’s about creating an encore that blends passion, purpose, and new opportunities.

As a market research consultant and entrepreneur for nearly three decades, Joy has guided executives and business owners across industries in making strategic, well-informed decisions. Like many Gen Xers, she wants a future in which she can remain productive, explore meaningful pursuits, and build new connections.

With an honest, warm, friendly and highly professional approach, she guides accomplished professionals to discover their next purpose-driven chapter, empowering them to create an encore life with confidence and clarity.

Connect with Joy on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • How Joy’s coaching approach helps clients redefine success beyond the corporate title and accomplishments they’ve held for years
  • What’s one powerful mindset shift that Gen X leaders can adopt to turn uncertainty about the future into excitement and purpose
  • Some surprising opportunities Gen X professionals have taken once they began exploring their next chapter
  • Advice for someone who feels stuck in limbo between the end of their corporate career and the start of something new

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Joy Levin, who is the President of Gen X Exec Encore. Welcome.

Speaker3: Thanks, Lee. It’s great to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to be talking to you. Somebody who’s finally talking about Gen X. The boomers take up too much oxygen in the room, so I’m fired up about having somebody talk about Gen Xers. So tell me about your practice. How you serving folks?

Speaker3: Yeah, so I’m a certified professional retirement coach, and I specialize in working with Gen X leaders. So small business owners, executives, entrepreneurs to really empower them to navigate the transition to their post post-career chapter. So I focus on those who want to design like a fulfilling, purpose driven chapter in their retirement years, and they want to make the most of what is now commonly thought of as an encore, especially for Gen X leaders. So, you know, we coach them to clarify what’s next. Whether it’s launching a new business or shifting to a passion project, or just redefining work and lifestyle on their own terms. So we take them through a series of exercises that guide them to decide what they want to do. That’s in line with their values, because a lot of people who retire now, they have, you know, 10 or 15,000 more days ahead of them, lots of stuff left in the tank. And so we want to make sure that people are using that in an intentional way, to really make sure that they maintain a sense of identity and connection and relevance.

Lee Kantor: How did this kind of evolve for you? How did you get it? You go from whatever you were doing to this kind of work.

Speaker3: Right. So my background before this and I still continue to do this is market research and strategy consulting. So, you know, there were really three things that kind of came together that influenced me. So first of all, you know, as I’m a Gen Xer myself, I understand that we have a unique mindset and values. I mean, all generations have their uniqueness, but in our case, we’ve lived through so many societal and cultural experiences that really resulted in us developing this strong sense of like resilience and adaptability. And we were also raised to be independent and resourceful. But when it comes to what’s next, after a long career, many people in my generation just find there’s no clear roadmap, their expectations. But those expectations don’t always fit into what our aspirations are. So second, my background and market research and consulting also played a major role because for years I’ve worked with executives to uncover insights so they could make data driven decisions. And so in doing so, I’ve always been very inquisitive and analytical and strategic. And these are skills that I now use to guide Gen X leaders through one of the most important transitions of their lives. So just as I continue to work with businesses to find clarity in these complex market landscapes, I’m also working with individuals to gain clarity on their own next steps. And third, I was just inspired by my own journey, really. I went through transitions from being an employee to an entrepreneur to thinking about what will come next. And these were all defining moments for me. So each time I’ve experienced firsthand the mix of excitement and uncertainty and reinvention that comes with stepping into a new professional identity, and I’ve come to realize that many accomplished Gen X professionals face similar crossroads, and they need structured support to create a transition that aligns with their values and goals.

Lee Kantor: Can you talk about that transition when you went for from. You know, I’m working and now I’m coaching. And now, as a coach, I have to go and find a client. So I have to convince somebody that I can help them with this challenge that they’re having. Like those early clients. Can you talk about how that transition went?

Speaker3: Yeah. You know, so there are really a couple different ways. Um, I sort of have created this framework called from mixtapes to mindset to I’m sorry to meaning because, you know, um, mixtapes are like this huge, iconic thing for our generation. I mean, everybody’s created one. Um, and so they evoke a lot of nostalgia. They bring us back to some of the things we thought about when we were kind of starting off in our careers. And so I’ve kind of used that, and I do workshops and classes about it to reorient people to thinking about, you know, kind of rewinding that tape to the past, but then also reframing it and reinvigorating it to think about the future. So that’s one way. And I also partner with like financial planners and other people who touch retirees or soon to be retirees. Um, you know, and I do all kinds of things for them. And we partner together, um, to show that really, retirement planning is not just about the finance and the money. It really requires this holistic perspective. So, you know, a lot of people feel like, okay, I’m all set financially and yet they retire and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do now. Like, I don’t know what to do with my time. I’ve lost my identity. You know, I’ve been an attorney my whole life or an entrepreneur. And those titles no longer fit. So they have to find something new to replace that with, to make sure that they will have this fulfilling next chapter. Because a lot of people, what they do is they say, you know, I’m retired and then they don’t have a fulfilling experience. So they go back to work and then they’re still unhappy and they don’t really understand why. Or it’s very frustrating. So those are a couple of the ways in which, you know, I engage with people and get them thinking about, you know, how can they create this very intentional, purposeful next chapter.

Lee Kantor: Do people of that generation think when they’re retiring that like it’s just going to be golf and fishing? Like, is that is there a picture in their head that maybe isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be?

Speaker3: Very much so. Yeah. And it’s so funny because that’s one of the analogies I use. People say, you know, I’ll play golf. And then, you know, after not too long, you’re like, I have, what, 25 more years of this? And to just think of doing that, it’s just not getting at the ambition they’ve had their whole lives. So there is definitely some misconceptions. They think, um, you know, they will just find their way. Um, and sometimes people are lucky enough to do that. Um, a lot of times it’s through a lot of false starts and delays, and so they waste a lot of time trying to figure that out. Um, whereas people like me who coach them can get to that much faster and help them to recognize, you know, what it is that’s going to carry them through to really have a next chapter that’s not just, you know, like you said, playing golf or fishing, but doing things that are really meaningful to them. And it could be volunteer work. It could be, like I said, starting a new business. It could, you know, just be so many different things. Um, but it really requires a lot of thinking and, you know, working through some exercises and assessments, I take them through to figure out what that’s going to be. And it’s, you know, it’s very unique for each person.

Lee Kantor: Now is it ideally you want to get to them before they’ve actually retired. Well, maybe they’re kind of have a year or two of working still. So you can maybe lay some groundwork and foundation.

Speaker3: Yeah, exactly. Usually a couple years is ideal. Um, because a lot of times they when they don’t do that and they just fall into retirement, then they kind of drift and they feel like I should have this figured out and I should not be feeling bad. Like, there’s this whole thing about, oh, you know, you’ve worked your whole life and you’re retired, and isn’t it wonderful? And there’s this psychological thing that goes on where people say it’s not wonderful. They’re thinking to themselves, this is just I mean, I just have nothing to do, and I just feel lost. And so ideally, it does help to start a year or two before you retire. So like you said, you lay the groundwork. You can start putting things in motion so that once you do make that big transition, you’re really ready to make the changes that you want to make in a way that will be fulfilling.

Lee Kantor: Now, I’ve met quite a few people recently that have maybe been laid off a little sooner than they thought they would be, and now they’re kind of a little untethered because like you mentioned earlier, when you work for, you know, big company, um, you’re used to people returning your calls or knowing you as that person. But when you’re just yourself, um, you know, without kind of that corporate identity around you. Life is a little trickier.

Speaker3: No doubt. Yeah. And, you know, it’s like they lose their relevance. And that is a terrible, terrible feeling. I mean, you know, they’ve gone, like you said, from these roles where they were thought of as a point person, as somebody with knowledge and wisdom, and all of a sudden they’re adrift. And so that’s a big thing that we work through, is making sure that they stay relevant in both their social lives and their identity in their relationships. Um, you know, it’s kind of this full view of what it takes to live this fulfilling life. So, yes, I agree with you. You know, there are people who you just feel very unmoored, and it’s a very uncomfortable feeling.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think that a lot of it stems like they thought that maybe they were the secret sauce, and then they realized that maybe their company was the secret sauce and that people, you know, aren’t as interested in themselves as they were when they was themselves and the company. Like I, I just think it’s a almost like an identity crisis. You know, at 50 or 60.

Speaker3: It’s definitely identity crisis for sure. And it’s either that or they just have thought of themselves as the one that people to go for, for answers or insights or whatever it is. You know, somebody who ran their own business, who knew so much, and it’s not like, you know, they retire and those things go away. They still have that knowledge. And so there’s a lot that’s also going on slowly but surely in the workforce about having these intergenerational workforces where these people who have gathered all this wisdom and knowledge and experience can really make a difference in, you know, helping people who are just entering or their mid-career to kind of shortcut some of the mistakes they made, um, and bring that different perspective that they bring from all those years of experience. And like I said, because they’re Gen X, they have these unique experiences that have helped shape their views. And those can help as well in kind of recharging a workplace and bringing different perspectives to the workforce than you would get from either, say, millennials or Gen Z or whoever else it is.

Lee Kantor: So can you walk us through what kind of those early engagements with you are like, is it a lot of kind of, like you said, assessments and asking a lot of questions just to kind of understand where they’re at mentally.

Speaker3: Yeah. So like I said, you know, this this framework I’ve developed is really inspired by the concept of a mix tape. So something very iconic. So in the context of what I do, it becomes this curated collection of these meaningful experiences and lessons and aspirations. So there are kind of these different phases that we go in and out of as we work through these exercises. You know, first, the rewinding right is looking back on your past experiences and really identifying patterns in what is either energize them or drain them over the years. And that way we can start to, you know, have some ideas of, wow, these are the things that are going to light me up going forward. And these are the things I want to kind of avoid. And then we get into this remix stage where we explore some new possibilities by blending, you know, existing skills that they still have. Like I said, it’s not like those get shut off, but we kind of blend them with fresh interests. So it’s about reimagining work and lifestyle and purpose in ways that feel, you know, exciting and aligned. And then we do a reset where we let go of some outdated definitions of success and limiting beliefs, because we want to work on shifting the mindset from what I used to be to what I want to become.

Speaker3: And some people say it’s like a shift from retiring from to two. But it’s more than that. It’s retiring with, because you do bring all of these experiences and skills into this next chapter. And then we do a reconnect where we work on strengthening relationships and building new networks. And many times, you know, I work with people that feel the need to redefine their social and professional circles to match these evolving aspirations. And then it’s about reviving, right? It’s about stepping into action with confidence and clarity, because this next phase is about making intentional choices that create what I call fulfilling encore life, whether that means entrepreneurship or impact driven work or new personal pursuits. So really, the framework ensures that they don’t just retire, they reinvent, and they get to really live out some of the values that they may have lost touch with, that they can re-identify and power them forward into things that have a lot of meaning for them.

Lee Kantor: Now, as most of your work, one on one coaching? Or do you kind of create your own mix tape with a bunch of your clients so they can, you know, create some mashups and maybe some unexpected community?

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, I do both. Um, you know, I teach this framework through courses and workshops. So I do that and then I also do one on one. Typically, you know, people go into a workshop and they all of a sudden have more questions and they want to work on things in a more customized way. Um, and so then we’ll go into the one on one from there. But it really varies. People come in from a lot of different directions.

Lee Kantor: Is there a story you can share? Don’t name the person, but maybe explain where they were at and how you were able to help them get to a new place.

Speaker3: You know, there was an attorney I was working with for some time. Um, and she was really beginning to think of what would be next. Um, and started thinking about some of the things she enjoyed. She missed some connections. She missed some experiences she had, um, and she also realized that, you know, after a career of working in such a fact based field for so long that she kind of missed some of the creativity and things that she could kind of imagine. And so she decided to think about writing a book. So, you know, she kind of went from an attorney to be an author. And because she was going to be retiring, she was kind of able to take that in her at her own pace. You know, she didn’t have to worry about deadlines anymore or, you know, aside from those that are self-imposed, which I think are important because otherwise you just kind of drift. So, you know, she was able to figure out, okay, what are my goals for this book and when is it going to happen and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it’s just so gratifying to see people who really rethink some of their old beliefs and ways they perceive themselves and really be able to kind of, you know, take this new direction in life.

Lee Kantor: So if you put your market research hat had on how does the Gen Xers kind of fare when it comes to the nimbleness to make these kind of transitions? Do you think that they are kind of uniquely qualified to be able to have a nice second act or third act?

Speaker3: Yeah, I think in a lot of ways they are, like I said, you know, it’s a very resilient and adaptive generation when you think of, you know, all the things from, you know, gas lines in the 70s and the energy crisis all the way up through, you know, the.com bust when we were in our careers, they’ve seen so many different changes. When you just think of technology. I mean, we were the generation that was still growing up with typewriters. And, you know, those changes without anything else is a lot. So, you know, because of that resilience and adaptability, they’re able to often make the shift a little bit quicker. But at the same time, they are the first generation to grow up without like pensions. Social security is at risk. And so they’ve had to rethink, you know, kind of the assumptions and expectations that other generations have had so that they can create something that’s still meaningful for them in a way that they can live it out, um, in their own way. So it requires both, you know, these, these adjustments, but they have that resilience that oftentimes the adjustments are a little bit easier to make, I think, than other generations.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. It’s going to be interesting how the digital native folks handle this.

Speaker3: Yes it will. Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s like you think about how a lot of older boomers, you know, really struggle with some of these digital enhancements. I mean, I think of, you know, people I know that it’s it’s really hard. Um, and so this is the first generation where they may not be as adept, you know, to or adept to doing these things as some of the younger people, but still they have enough that they’re able to navigate that pretty easily. And, you know, you just think about the changes that might be coming. You know, it wouldn’t surprise me if we ended up with in not a short period of time. Robots that are able to do a lot of the tasks that we require from people, you know, once they’re in their 90s, a lot of people need help. And so we may have robots being able to do that kind of stuff. And what that will mean for Gen X in terms of being able to live not just longer, but in a more fulfilling way, even into their, you know, later years.

Lee Kantor: Right. Especially you’re seeing a little bit of it now with a lot of this autonomous vehicles.

Speaker3: Definitely. Yes. Yeah, I mean absolutely. I don’t think it’ll be long before those types of vehicles are, are, you know, make a huge, huge difference in not just Gen X as they retire, but in people with disabilities and in all kinds of it will open the doors, I think, for a lot for a lot of people.

Lee Kantor: Right. I mean, just look at how a lot of the people in our generations had to have that hard conversation of taking the keys away from our parents, where it might be less painful for our children than us. Because there could be an autonomous. We can just summon a car and it’ll come and pick us up.

Speaker3: Exactly. Yeah, I I’ve lived through those conversations so I know what that’s like and yeah, very, very difficult. So yeah, maybe that will be one of the things that, you know, millennials and Gen Zers don’t have to worry about as much and similar with the care. You know, there might be advancements in care because we’ve you know, what we’ve done is expanded longevity, but we haven’t caught up with all the other things that go into making a life fulfilling as you live longer. So, you know, I’m optimistic that those things will come faster and more easily to this generation and make a better, you know, longer lasting life.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And you make a good point about how this generation is the one that went from analog to, to digital. So having kind of a monumental change like that, Um, you know, we were able to kind of see what the before and after look like. But if you’re digitally native and you didn’t see a dramatic shift and it’s always been this way, it’s going to be interesting how they handle those kind of monumental shifts.

Speaker3: Oh, definitely. And you just imagine some of the shifts that will occur after them that their kids will be seeing. And, um, probably things we can’t even imagine right now.

Lee Kantor: So now, um, what kind of is the, I guess, the anxiety or the discomfort that a client is having before they become your client? Is it something that does something have to happen to trigger a call with you, or do you get, like you mentioned, referrals from my financial advisors and people like that, that they just probably say, hey, just go and and talk to Joy. But what like what’s happening were they’re like, you know what, maybe I do need help.

Speaker3: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a lot of what we’ve talked about where it’s not necessarily one event. It’s, you know, realizing that the expectations they had, um, and just the way things are set up are not really serving what they need. You know, when you think of Social Security, it was set up for people who were going to live, you know, maybe 5 or 10 more years after retirement. And that’s just completely not the way it is anymore. It’s 30 or more years. And so it’s really sometimes it’s an extended period of time where they realize, okay, I’m doing like little chores around the house. That can be one trigger. A lot of times it’s a spouse that says, you know, I cannot see you on the couch anymore. You have got to get up and do something. And so sometimes that’s it. Um, you know, it’s a variety of different things. It is often not one event. It’s kind of this pervasive feeling of, I know there’s more out there. I, I just don’t know what it is or I, I’ve wanted to do this thing, whatever it is. But I don’t know how to get from point A to point B and what are the kind of minefields in between doing that? So, you know, and also it can be more than one thing. I mean, you can easily set up what I like to call a portfolio life of, you know, you have in your financial portfolio different assets and different combinations of things.

Speaker3: And it’s the same with a lifestyle where you can say, okay, I’m going to do this volunteer, I’m going to do this passion project, you know, I’m going to spend this kind of time doing this other thing. And so you bring into your life variety and often that’s what’s missing, is people feel like I’m doing the same thing every day, and I don’t need to be doing that. Like I used to have a job where I did the same thing every day. But there’s so much else out there, but they just don’t know how to figure out what that is that aligns with what they want. Or like I said, they’ve identified something and just have no idea how to get there. So that’s some of the instances where a coach can really help them, not to tell them what to do. But you know, that’s not what a coach does, but to kind of be a sounding board. Offer suggestions, work through some sort of scenarios, and like I said, do some exercises and assessments that help them to identify, you know, this is maybe something I thought of, but I’d forgotten or something I never even thought I wanted to do. But now it makes sense.

Lee Kantor: And you mentioned spouses. Do you do also work with the client and their spouses that unusual or is that the norm?

Speaker3: No, it’s not unusual. It’s I’ve worked with couples, um, you know, and it’s it’s interesting because, um, sometimes you’ll see patterns where, you know, one person in the couple feels one way, and sometimes there’s a lack of communication, you know, where, for example, you know, one person and a couple will say, I just want to travel a lot. And the other person saying, I don’t think I want to do that kind of hassle or whatever. And then once they get talking and realize, you know, really drill down into what they want, it often can be okay. We want to take 1 or 2 trips a year, and that way the person who wants to travel get gets what they want. And so does the person who really isn’t that into it, who’s just like, okay, a year or a week or two a year, I can manage. I cannot think of, you know, going from place to place months on end. And that wasn’t even what the travel person was thinking of. So a lot of times it’s just having these conversations and, you know, seeing where there’s room for compromise and, you know, understanding what the expectations are because these are conversations, you know, that people just don’t have.

Speaker3: A lot of the conversations are taken up with finances, um, whether it’s a couple or whether it’s just somebody thinking about what they want. They have been so conditioned to making sure they will have a good enough financial life that they have not thought of all the other stuff, so it’s a matter of having these conversations to really bring things to light that can be really very unifying or kind of serve up the ability to work on a compromise to find something they both like. And I think, you know, one of the things that when I work with couples is also very, very important is that they each have their own social lives. They can certainly have a social life together, but it’s so important for them to have their own hobbies and their own kind of tribe that they can explore things with, because there’s just a lot of differences. And, you know, it’s not like when they married, for better or for worse, they weren’t marrying to have lunch together every day. They were, you know, doing other things. So it’s it’s very important for them to approach it, not just as a couple, but for two individuals as well.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story today. If somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you, or learn about all the different programs you offer. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Speaker3: Yep. They can go to my website, which is, um, Gen-X encore.com. Um, they can email me. Jay Levin at Encore Life. Com. Um, I’m on LinkedIn. Um, they can just look up my name, Joy Levin, and they’ll find me. So I encourage them to reach out and we’ll have a conversation. But I really enjoyed this, you know, talking about this. I so love it that it makes me realize that this is something that, to me, is very fulfilling.

Lee Kantor: Well, Joy, thank you again for sharing your story, doing such important work. And we appreciate you.

Speaker3: Oh you’re welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Carol Urton With Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting

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Carol Urton With Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting
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In this episode of High Velocity Radio, host Lee Kantor talks with Carol Urton, CEO of Carol Urton Coaching and Consulting. Carol discusses her journey from corporate life to becoming an energy leadership coach and team strategy consultant. She explains the concept of energy leadership, the difference between coaching and consulting, and how tools like the Energy Leadership Index Assessment help individuals and teams shift to more productive energy states. Carol shares practical examples and insights on reframing challenges, fostering collaboration, and transforming adversity into opportunities for growth and innovation.

Carol Urton, ACC, ELI-MP, Certified Professional Coach Author & Speaker and CEO of Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting.

She is a dynamic and accomplished professional with over 40 years of experience in both the corporate and nonprofit sectors. Before transitioning to her full-time coaching and consulting practice in 2024, she served for 10 years as the Senior Director of Corporate Responsibility for a major global organization.

Renowned as a trusted leader and innovator, she has dedicated her career to empowering individuals and organizations to reach their full potential. As a certified professional coach, author, and speaker, she combines her expertise with her passion for inspiring others to lead an epic life filled with significant and transformative moments.

Her holistic approach to personal and professional development is grounded in her mastery of the Energy Leadership Index Assessment®, enabling her to assist clients in uncovering the energy patterns that drive their success. She holds an ACC and is accredited by the International Coaching Federation (ICF).

She is also a highly sought-after speaker and facilitator. She delivers impactful keynotes, webinars, and workshops on growth mindset, energy leadership, and overcoming barriers to success. Her thought leadership is shared weekly through LinkedIn articles, where she provides insights tailored to leaders and professionals seeking growth.

Her diverse career reflects her dedication to combating ageism, fostering inclusion, overcoming childhood trauma, and empowering others to reinvent themselves in the face of life’s challenges.

She is currently working on her upcoming book, The Lemon Myth: Knowing When to Stop Trying to Make Lemonade and Reinvent Your Life, which delves into the art of personal and professional transformation, highlighting themes of joy, fun, and resilience.

As a triathlete, she understands the mental stamina required to achieve monumental goals, even those that seem impossible or merely a dream. She applies the same determination to her coaching practice. Her services are essential for leaders, professionals, and those navigating pivotal moments in their lives. Her tagline, “Let’s work on your tomorrow… today!” reflects her proactive and results-oriented philosophy.

Connect with Carol on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • What inspired Carol to pivot into coaching and consulting, and how that decision changed her life
  • Energy Leadership and the Energy Leadership Index Assessment
  • Most common challenges high performers face today

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Carol Urton, who is the CEO of Carol Urton Coaching and Consulting. Welcome.

Carol Urton: Thank you for having me, Lee.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your firm. How are you serving folks?

Carol Urton: Well, I am an energy leadership coach, a team strategy consultant. I’m also an author and a speaker, and so I have many different ways to reach my audiences with the information and help that they need or want.

Lee Kantor: So let’s talk a little bit about energy leadership. And can you explain that? I’ve never heard that term before.

Carol Urton: Yeah. So it’s a framework that was developed by the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching. And we really take a look at energy. And it’s not the energy that you use to run down the street. It’s more of mental energy where you’re spending it, how you’re spending it and where you resonate most of the day. And so it’s really based on, you know, we all have a way that we look at the world, the lens in which we view things just based on the current circumstances that you’re in, or just background information, things that you’ve experienced during life. And I can give you some examples of those in a bit. But, you know, we all resonate at a certain level most of the time. And then when we hit some sort of stressor, we can really drop down into lower energy levels. So it’s based on anabolic and catabolic energy. Catabolic energy is very high stress, cortisol, adrenaline producing energy. And that is something that people operate in a lot. It’s not sustainable. Um, I like to explain it. If if you’re being chased by a lion, you need a lot of, uh, that type of energy to run and get away. But it’s not sustainable. You can’t keep running that way for long periods of time. And then anabolic energy is more of a building up, uh, energetic, uh, growth type hormone energy that we operate in when we’re in more of a visionary, problem solving, innovative, uh, type of energy.

Lee Kantor: So what’s your backstory? How did you get involved in this line of work?

Carol Urton: Yeah, so I got involved. I was in the corporate world for many, many years and was at my current corporate job. I just left that a year ago in August to pursue my coaching practice full time, so I’ve been building that on the side for about three years, and I really was operating in some of those lower energy levels. There was a lot of stress. There was a lot of, uh, resources that weren’t being provided for my team. And so I found myself in a time where my attitude was kind of not great, and I didn’t like that. So I signed up for a coaching program and realized once I got into that, how helpful it was and how I had actually, most of my life been coaching and mentoring people and really wanted to have a specific framework to do that in. And so I went ahead and got certified as a coach and have continued my training, uh, ever since. And so it’s been really great because everything throughout my life, uh, from, I’m going to say, from birth until now has led me to this point where I really have found my purpose and the calling that I believe I was put on this earth for.

Lee Kantor: So your first foray, foray into coaching was being coached. Is that what you said?

Carol Urton: Yes, that is correct.

Lee Kantor: So then through going through that process, that was kind of the aha moment of, hey, I am doing a lot of these things or this really resonates with me, how this interaction is going. And then you thought, well, maybe I can pivot into coaching.

Carol Urton: Absolutely. In fact, you know, I was being coached. I’m like, boy, I really want to be on the other side of the desk. So I, you know, talked with my coach about it and went ahead and, uh, you know, went through the training to, you know, really be and I did go through the Institute for Professional Excellence and Coaching. I think it’s one of the the best coaching schools out there. And so it has been very helpful in building this new career.

Lee Kantor: Now, in your firms, um, the name of your firm also includes consulting. How are you kind of discerning the difference of when the coaching ends and the consulting begins, and vice versa?

Carol Urton: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, you know, in coaching we really, uh, walk alongside and you know, it’s similar but then it is different. So consulting is more going into an organization and taking a look at how they’re operating and giving specific, um, advice and guidance based on my knowledge and experience of being in the corporate world and also the nonprofit sector. I’ve done a lot of nonprofit work, and so that’s a little bit different. Uh, the coaching piece is more partnering with my clients to help them, uh, be the best that they can be, get from point A to point B, but it’s not directive. It is more exploring, uh, And asking the right questions to have them come to their own conclusion on understanding what they want and need to do and what they’re capable of. You know, a lot of us go through life and just need a little encouragement. We can do a lot more than we think we can do, and we’re much more talented and, and, uh, you know, capable than we think we are.

Lee Kantor: So what is your typical engagement? Do you start doing coaching and then the you’re working with a leader and they say, hey, you know, our whole organization might need some of this. And then it kind of bleeds into consulting. Or is it vice versa.

Carol Urton: Uh no. It’s pretty separate. So I will take on an engagement as a consultant. I do have certain clients that really want both. And so we, you know, we have a specific contract based around that. And we’re very clear on when we’re coaching and when we’re consulting. And so it can be a mixture, but the consultant piece generally is just going into an organization and helping them really get to where they need to be.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with individuals, um, what is that? What kind of work are you typically doing with that individual?

Carol Urton: Well, it’s mostly leadership. And most of my clients are, uh, high performing leaders. And, you know, with everyone out there these days, it seems like there is limited time and resources to get the job done. And so it’s really most of the time. The problem I see is people get burnt out, they get stressed. They they’re, you know, leading a lot of people. And there’s a lot of frustration within organizations in the current climate. And so it’s helping them be able to really find a path that will help them be successful, but also bring their people along to be successful. So, you know, I recently worked with an organization that, you know, there was a lot of change going on and people were not happy. And so it was really walking alongside this leader to come up with solutions to get the team going in the right direction altogether. One thing I do is I have an energy Leadership Index assessment that I can give leaders and teams, and so that was developed by IPCC again. And so this assessment really helps people see where they’re resonating on that energy, that energy level. So to to really work through that, when you take this assessment, it tells you where you operate most of the time. So let’s just say you are completely stuck. That’s going to be energy level one. You know you’re You don’t know what to do. You don’t know how to do it. You may be so stuck. You don’t even want to do anything. And so that, you know, is the lowest level of energy. And as you work your way up this energy scale, you know, level two is where a lot of these teams and organizations resonate.

Carol Urton: And that is frustration. Blaming other people for everything going wrong. And so there’s a lot of shifting of responsibility people. Not really. That’s that that very high adrenaline, cortisol energy. And you know, a lot of people can get a lot of stuff done in that energy level because they’re really cracking the whip and, you know, getting everybody in line. But again, it’s not sustainable. And people are just not happy. And so as you work your way up, uh, level three is more, uh, compromise tolerance. You know, this is just the way it’s always going to be. People kind of get stuck there. Level four is the energy level of service. And so a lot of people that I work with are in this service level of energy. And so nonprofits, um, you know, organizations that are trying to serve their clients in the community. And so the service piece is really important to them, and they get kind of stuck there, which isn’t a bad thing. But when you work up to the higher levels of level five, which is, you know, gifts and opportunities, you know, what are the opportunities in every situation. And then level six, more visionary, um, planning. So that’s where we want to get our leaders into the more visionary and planning. And you know, what are the gifts and opportunities, even if things aren’t going well and being able to work through that so they can actually lead their teams.

Lee Kantor: So when you learned about this energy leadership and the energy Leadership Index assessment. What part of that resonated with you is this? Or were you kind of, um, already intuitively, uh, learning and interested in energy and saw, uh, where energy kind of lags and where it can increase? Like, what drew you to energy leadership?

Carol Urton: Well, the thing that has really drawn me to this framework is, you know, we are all in control of our own energy. And, you know, when we talk about energy, it may sound a little woo woo, but it’s really just, you know, how we operate, how we walk through life. And so, you know, for example, if I wake up in the morning and everything’s going wrong and I want to blame my husband for it, you know, that’s a very level two energy. I don’t want to be there. I want to get into the more problem solving, solution oriented level. And when I realize that I’m there, I have the ability to shift into whatever level of energy I need to get the job done, and to live a more peaceful and and happy life. And so people really tend to get stuck in the complaining, the blame game, you know, all of that within organizations or even in life. And so to know that we don’t have to be there, that we can shift that. And that’s what this assessment does, is it really tells you, you know, where you resonate most of the time. So for me, normally I’m in a 5 or 6 level of energy, but if I come up across, you know, something that’s really stressful or something goes wrong, I can temporarily really drop down into the being just stuck. You know, I don’t know, I don’t know what to do. And I don’t know, I just kind of will shut down. And when I know that, then I know to reach out and get some help and, you know, shift into a different Mindset that is going to help me move forward.

Lee Kantor: Now, is that what happens during the coaching you? Once you give somebody this assessment and they learn kind of where their I guess their baseline is, and then you give them tools and skills in order to get out of that and move into the to another level.

Carol Urton: Absolutely. So again, like I said, a lot of my clients are in the level four, you know, level of service. And what happens when you’re so busy serving other people all the time. You can drop into those lower levels because you become burnout or resentful or angry that you know you’re trying to help everybody and they’re not taking your advice. They’re not following the directions. They come to you for help. You love helping people, and then, you know, nothing happens. And so they can get very focused so much on service, not only at work, but with their families and friends. And, you know, they’re always the person that’s coming to to aid everyone. And they can get a little stuck there where if they can mentally shift into, okay, you know, what do I need to do to look at the opportunities in these situations? How can I be a more visionary leader? So, you know, the level six energy of we call it the flow energy where I don’t know. You know, you go to work in the morning and you hit all the green lights, your work’s all getting done and your your projects are getting completed.

Carol Urton: Your calls are going great. You know, it’s just one of those days where you have this, this flow that’s going on that really helps you accomplish a lot. And then all of a sudden, you know, something comes out of the blue and you can get knocked right back down quickly. And so it’s very typical for all of us to move within these different levels. It’s just knowing how to use it and how to be able to again shift when you realize that that’s happening. So my clients use this kind of talk all the time. I mean, they really begin to understand how they can do so much more with just awareness of where they’re at. And so generally, what we do is we’ll do an energy leadership index assessment at the beginning of a coaching engagement, and then we do another one at the end. And then we see what that average resonating level of energy number is, because generally it will go up. And the higher that number, the more life satisfaction you’re really experiencing.

Lee Kantor: Now is there anything you could share? Well, say a person like you said, your typical client is at that service level and they’re they’re going about their business, everything’s fine. Then they boom, they’re up into that area of flow, that level six. And then, you know, just as quickly as they got to level six, something happened and now they’re maybe not for. Maybe they’re three now. Uh, are there any tools or anything you can share with our listener right now? Is there something you can do that once you have that awareness that you’ve shifted downward, that you can shift back upward?

Carol Urton: Sure. In fact, I can give you a real time, real life example of something that happened with me over the past couple of months and how I was able to use this, because I used this to for myself a lot. And so I was asked to speak at my local chamber of commerce to talk about my programs and what I do, and I was really excited about that. I now actually sit on the board of that chamber, but they had asked me to come in and they wanted me to bring some materials with me as well, so that they could pass them out during the meeting and also keep them at the chamber. And I’d been thinking about for quite a while, developing a brochure. So I thought, okay, this is a perfect opportunity. Level five. You know, it’s a great opportunity to get some work done that I haven’t been able to do yet. And so I set forth to create this brochure. I didn’t have a lot of time. So my meeting was on a Monday. They told me they wanted this on a Thursday. And so I had to really, you know, be speedy in getting this done. So I get the brochure done. It looks absolutely beautiful. I send it off to a quick printer that can get it delivered to me before this meeting is going to start. And I get it back and I open it up and lo and behold, I the first thing I see is a typo. And coming from the corporate world, I would never, ever pass out anything in a meeting with the typo. And so instantly I went from this level five, level six, you know, grade.

Carol Urton: I’m going to get this work done. I’ve got it done. I’m ready to go Ago immediately. I’m. I’m A1I am I am stuck, I am, I’m, you know, I’m just there’s nothing I can do here because I don’t have time to fix this situation. So then I immediately went into level two, you know, blaming. Right? I’m super frustrated. Why didn’t the printer catch this? You know, my husband didn’t have time to proof it for me. You know, I’ve got all these reasons why this typo wasn’t caught and corrected before I sent it to the printer. And then I’m going up the level. Level three. Well, there’s this is just the way it is. I’m going to have to just tolerate this situation and live with it. But then level four kicks in and I’m like, you know, this is something that was meant to help people to to explain what I do to, you know, help them with their businesses and their leadership skills. And so, you know, that service level kicked in and I thought it could still be useful. It could still be useful in this situation. And then I, uh, I decided, well, what is the gift and the opportunity here? So these brochures came with envelopes. And so I stuffed all the brochures and the envelopes. I took them to the meeting, I passed them out, and I asked the participants not to open the envelopes until I asked them to. So I’m explaining this energy level, uh, framework to them during this meeting. And so now I’m in level five and I say, you know, I’ve got a I’ve got a gift for you and an opportunity for me.

Carol Urton: I’m going to ask you all to open up the brochure. I told them there’s a typo. I asked them to read the brochure in. The first person to find the typo was going to get a free Energy Leadership Index assessment. And so man, they went. They were so excited. Everybody’s you know it accomplished a lot of things right. You know they’re reading the brochure. How many people actually read a whole brochure when you pass it out. And they’re excited because we’ve made it a fun activity. Somebody found the typo and we’re now all in level six because we are working together. There’s a lot of synergy. People are having fun. We’re accomplishing something. And so you can imagine when I left that meeting, I am now in level seven that we haven’t talked about. And that is the level of just absolute pure joy and passion and knowing that I’ve accomplished something and all of a sudden, you know, I’m I’m no longer judging myself for this mistake that’s been made. And that’s one thing that we haven’t really talked about here is that, you know, with each of these levels of energy, judgment becomes less as you go up the scale. So if you’re in level one, there’s heavy judgment of yourself and others. And the higher you go up the scale, the less judgment there is. And if we’re operating without worrying about our performance or, you know, judging other people, we really open up the possibilities to, uh, have new, uh, new opportunities and energy and just, you know, the the possibilities are unlimited.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And it it sounds that and that’s a great lesson that you were able to take something that you at one point perceived as a negative. And now it became kind of an Easter egg hunt. It was a fun workshop that got more people got, uh, enjoyment and understanding, a deeper understanding of what you do. You demonstrated it and it came alive.

Carol Urton: Yes. It was it was a it was a very fun day for everyone.

Lee Kantor: And now are you going to just build that into future? Um, talk’s having a typo.

Carol Urton: Actually, yes. I’ve shared it with with my colleagues who are going to, uh, kind of build a. Yeah, because this, this concept is without being coached through it and doing the assessment, sometimes it can be a little bit hard to explain, but once you, you know, really begin to understand the concept, people can use it immediately. And, you know, people that are listening to the broadcast today, just, you know, being aware that we all, again, have the ability to decide how we’re going to react in every situation and taking a pause and really thinking about that and trying to figure out what the best outcome is going to be. And generally, you know, the level two energy of frustration and blame is not going to help anyone.

Lee Kantor: Right? And this type of thinking, it helps people go from that, uh, adversity into, uh, something that’s more productive and can lead to more successful outcome?

Carol Urton: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just the concept that everything, no matter, you know, good or bad, can be turned into a gift and an opportunity. And, you know, like I said, I had really been working on this concept for most of my life. I wrote a book a few years ago called when Hope hurts. And that book is really to help people who have been through extreme trauma. And so I know in my own life, you know, I really had to decide at one point whether I was going to, you know, let this situation, uh, beat me down or whether I was going to take it out and really, uh, make something good out of a really bad situation. And so that’s where a lot of my, you know, my energy comes from. And knowing that you can overcome anything, you just need the right tools and the right help to be able to do that. And so that’s where just having been speaking on this for years and years, writing the book, you know, being in the corporate world and then finding this profession of coaching and being able to combine all of my, my skill, my experience and, you know, my, my, my life experience has just come to this point where it’s been a beautiful thing to be able to serve other people.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, it sounds very rewarding, and it sounds like you figured out a way to really make that kind of impact that you probably were attempting to do early on in your career. Now you have kind of a through your career and living the life you’ve led. You have now all these tools and resources to really help people, uh, make meaningful change.

Carol Urton: Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: So, um, what do you what’s most rewarding for you now? Is it the coaching? Is it the that the consulting? Is it working individually? Is it a group like do you have kind of a favorite when it comes to working with people and sharing what you know?

Carol Urton: Yeah, I would say all of it. But I really I think where we make the most impact and where I really feel like we’re really making some progress is the team strategy consulting. And so we can take this energy leadership index assessment and we can do it for a group. We come up with a group average. And when the group begins to understand how they all operate, how they operate individually and then how they operate together, amazing things happen. I recently did this for a group of 19 HR professionals, and they came together and just had so much fun. Number one, doing the assessment and the group debrief. But really learning about how they can help each other and lift each other up, they can see, you know, when their colleagues are thriving and moving forward. They can see when their colleagues are stuck or being, you know, getting frustrated. And so it’s a really great tool to elevate the team and get them moving in that more, you know, visionary flow state, even if you are, um, a service professional like in a nonprofit or HR professionals who, you know, serve people all day long and to help them understand that, you know, that can burn you out, but you can use this information to begin to look at, you know, what’s going on with our employees.

Carol Urton: And, you know, how do we turn it into a gift and an opportunity and have more visionary thinking? Um, the second thing that I really love to do is I run an energy Leadership index, uh, Mastermind group. And so this is where I take six high performing leaders. I put them in a group, and we not only do the Energy Leadership Index assessment and debrief individually, but we have a seven week program where we explore each of these levels and talk together about, you know, how what do we do when you know we’re in level one? What are the situations that you have you’ve come across within, you know, your your career and your organization and how, you know, how can you change that? And as we spend an hour and a half each week for seven weeks on each of these levels, it becomes something where we learn from each other and people just grow and flourish. And so that’s been a really successful program. I’ve got one starting in September. And, you know, it’s something that has been really, really impactful for my clients and for me. I learn a lot from my clients.

Lee Kantor: Now, if somebody wants to learn more. Have a more substantive conversation with you about all of the concepts we’ve talked about today. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Carol Urton: Yes. It can reach me@carroll.com. And my email address is carroll@carroll.com.

Lee Kantor: And then that’s spelled c a r o l u r t o n.com. Uhhuh. Well, Carol, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Carol Urton: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Ellen Goldman With EllenG Coaching, LLC

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Ellen Goldman With EllenG Coaching, LLC
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EllenG Coaching was created by Ellen Goldman to provide coaching and training to professionals and entrepreneurs who are worried about their health and happiness due to exhaustion, burnout, weight issues and other health challenges.

Her mission is to help business professionals get self-care back on their daily “to-do” list. Through her motivational talks, coaching programs, and online courses, she shows clients how to integrate health into their busy lifestyles with simple, small steps that lead to massive change, resulting in higher energy, improved focus, increased productivity and overall happiness.

With over 30 years of experience in and fitness industries working as a personal trainer and certified wellness coach, and as a business owner, wife, and mom, she knows first-hand that you do not need to sacrifice your health and happiness to have a successful career.

She is a National Board Certified Health & Wellbeing Coach, ICF PCC, and author of Mastering the Inner Game of Weight Loss: An Easy-to-Follow Guide to Permanent Weight Loss Without Going on a Diet.

Connect with Ellen on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Why it’s so difficult for business professionals and entrepreneurs to keep self-care on their daily to-do list
  • Some simple daily habits to incorporate into the busy days that will lead to greater energy and productivity
  • The key to creating life-work harmony
  • Why it’s so hard to stay motivated and consistent with healthy habits, and what can be done to increase motivation

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show we have Ellen Goldman. She is with EllenG Coaching and we are here to talk about personal health leading to business wealth. Welcome, Ellen.

Ellen Goldman: Hi. How are you?

Lee Kantor: I am doing well. I am so excited to be talking to you about this topic. But before we get too far into things, tell us a little bit about your practice. How are you serving folks at LNG coaching?

Ellen Goldman: Oh, absolutely. Well, first, thank you so much for inviting me to be on today and chat about what I feel incredibly passionate about. So by training, I’m a national Board certified health coach. And of course, health is a wide term that includes holistically, you know, both mental and our wellbeing and our physical health. And how I found my niche or my road that brought me to this very strong belief that personal health can lead to business. Wealth is actually when I first started networking my own company, and I came into this field at a very early stage where coaching was not a very well known industry, you know, executive business coaching, a little bit, a little bit of life coaching was being thrown out there, but nobody really understood what it was. And suddenly here were these health coaches and nobody really knew what it was. And I needed to go out and educate people about a service that can really help them lead a better life, both the ability to thrive, not just professionally, but personally and find the balance between the two. And so I started going to lots of networking meetings, meeting wonderful, smart, creative entrepreneurs and business professionals, people that were growing their businesses. And as they began to know me and feel comfortable with me, they would start to chat and I would start to hear things like, I’ve gained 25 pounds since I started my business.

Ellen Goldman: I exist on 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night. I’m never home. My kids don’t recognize me anymore. And there was just this lightbulb that went off for me that it was like, that’s kind of not the way we’re supposed to be living. Work is incredibly important. We all need to be working not just for financial reasons, but also to fulfill, you know, a sense of purpose. But that should not be our only purpose, and it shouldn’t define our Are days so completely that we neglect ourselves. And one of the first things that gets neglected is self-care. And as a business professional, especially if you’re an entrepreneurial business where you are the what I call the CEO, the you’re the everything person, you know, you do everything. It all depends on you. If you fall apart, that business will fall apart. And so it doesn’t matter how many great systems you have, if you do not have the energy to manage them and do what needs to be done to keep the business growing and thriving, you’re going to fall apart. And that means the business is going to fall apart. And so it was just really important for me to get the message out there that taking care of yourself actually is one of the most important things that you can do to thrive professionally.

Lee Kantor: Now, how does this message really sink in with that? Um, you know, this hustle culture and grind culture that it’s supposed to be 24 over seven and people brag about how they haven’t slept and they brag about how they sleep at the office. And and it seems like it’s almost a cult of sacrifice that they’re, they, they’re thinking that this is what it takes to be successful nowadays. And then you’re telling them, hey, maybe you ought to pump the brakes a little and pause and think about your health when in their minds they might think that they’re slacking if they, you know, go work out or sleep an extra couple hours. Like, how does how do you kind of communicate that message to people? It seems obvious when you say it, but when you’re in the midst of that kind of mindset, and especially if you’re surrounded with other kind of startup founders and they’re all competing with each other. Who can sleep at their office the longest? You know. How do you. How do you get that message through to them?

Ellen Goldman: It’s such a great question. It really begins with a mind set shift. Um, you’re absolutely right. You know, intellectually, it sounds good. But emotionally, making that change is so difficult. I mean, I do think that that is what, you know, coaching in general, no matter what phase of coaching you’re in. Coaching is the psychology of behavioral change. There’s no lacking in education around what we need to do to take good care of ourselves. People know my family is important, and yeah, I should be spending more time with them. And yeah, I know my health is important, but I’ll take care of it once the business is on its way and growing. And you know, but that waiting until is really a problem. So it begins with getting people in touch with what they really want for their future selves and what their values are. So we do a lot of visioning. You know, one of my favorite exercises that I love to do with people and, you know, I’ll do this just for fun when I meet people who ask me exactly the question that you just asked me, I’ll say, you know, take a moment and just sort of, kind of have some fun and play with me and visualize yourself, you know, 40 years from now, you know, and you’re retired and you’re sitting out there on the rocking chair, you know, and maybe your grandkids are sitting out there and looking at you and say, you know, tell me about your life. Was it good? Was it happy? What’s the answer you want to be able to give them? Do you want to be well enough to be out there playing with them? So sometimes it’s it’s like getting them towards this.

Ellen Goldman: If growing the business is towards making my life a better in the future. Being financially stable. Giving to my family. You know, how do I want to look back? It’s almost reverse engineering, which is a huge part of coaching as well because it’s again, it’s not that we don’t know what we’re supposed to be doing, but we don’t know how to change and we are competing with others. Sometimes it means sort of going the other road. I remember many years ago, um, I used to do a talk called Taming the Daily Frenzy, and it’s really based on brain research that sometimes is what connects with, um, business professionals who tend to be pretty, uh, you know, intellectual is to actually show them the research around how the brain was not designed to exist on 4 or 5 hours of sleep. The brain was not Is designed to multitask and how it becomes more efficient when it’s well rested, when it’s working with the proper habits, when nutrition and hydration are backing up brain function. And so when you can show people science evidence based research that shows that when you are feeling well, when you are healthy, when you are well rested, when you are eating well and taking breaks to get oxygen flowing through the body and the brain, that efficiency goes up, errors come down. You actually begin to be able to do more in a shorter period of time. It starts to make sense. Sense enough to say, well, let’s start experimenting. Let’s see what happens now.

Lee Kantor: Is it health and wellness in general it is kind of a long. You got to have a long timeline. This isn’t something that. Oh, I slept good last night. Now? Yeah. Everything is great. Like. Or, you know, I ate well yesterday. Oh, I lost 10 pounds. Like, it doesn’t work that simple, right? Like it’s something you got to kind of be invested in the long run. And it makes perfect sense to lead with all that kind of data and scientific research that says it is so. Because I think a lot of the folks that you’re trying to reach really believe in that stuff. So if, if that, that would resonate. Uh, to me, that’s a great starting place. Is there things that you do once they kind of intellectually go, okay, I’m going to buy in what you’re saying. And I love the way that you framed it in terms of let’s do an experiment. Are there some kind of simple, low hanging fruit things you lead with in order to kind of slowly ease them into this more, uh, mindful and healthy lifestyle?

Ellen Goldman: Absolutely. So I really believe that I am in the business of helping people change their lifestyle habits and be able to easily fit them into the lifestyle that they’re currently leading in the lifestyle they want. So there’s there’s kind of two sides of the coin. One of these is this future vision, you know, really getting in touch with what it is that we’re working towards. What is it that you want in the future? You know, what is it you know, that you want ten years from now? What is it you want 40 years from now? That visioning is a big part of it. But you also, we are a quick fix society. Everybody’s looking for that quick fix. So we’ve got to kind of show people that little changes can actually lead to really big, big changes in the future. So things like getting in the habit of keeping a water bottle on your desk. People don’t realize that fatigue dehydration masks itself as fatigue. Sometimes you’re feeling so tired and you’re dehydrated. You need to be sipping water all day. That’s such an easy thing for somebody to grasp and just do. And they’re like, huh? I do feel different. You know, our bodies were not designed to stay in one place for hours on end. So little things like setting a timer for 50 minutes and when that timer goes up, actually getting up, walking around a little, doing a few minutes of it doesn’t take long. 2 or 3 minutes of movement increases. Brain flow to the brain, increases brain flow to the body. You shut that down. You feel better doing this consistently. Suddenly you notice, gosh, I’m not aching so much at the end of the day anymore.

Ellen Goldman: But that doesn’t hurt. Well, that’s because you didn’t spend eight straight hours in a chair. And, you know, it’s little things versus I can’t tell somebody who’s existing on four hours of sleep at night. Okay, I want you to start sleeping eight hours. Like, I, I don’t think that’s happening. But can we begin to experiment? Let’s squeeze out 4.5 hours. Let’s kind of stick with that for a little while. How are you feeling? Is it changing your day a little bit? No, I don’t even really notice it. Okay, let’s let’s start inching to five hours and you take it over time. One of the. I think sleep is so essential. And again, this goes back to showing people and sharing the research with them. No matter what you want, no matter what your goals are, whether it’s stress relief, whether it’s weight loss, whether it’s getting fit, or whether it’s just being more engaged and present for your family. Just kind of what your ultimate goal is when you are not sleeping. Your emotional limbic brain is lit up all the time. It’s almost like in crisis and you can’t think straightly, so you don’t react appropriately and you won’t have the stamina to work on other goals if you can’t think straight. Sleep is a foundation to start with. But again, those little habits, you know, getting up, moving, drinking water, taking a ten minute lunch break. I speak to so many people who go, you know, hours and hours and hours without fuel in their body messes with the brain. You know, the brain is what we’re using to work.

Lee Kantor: Now, what is kind of the trigger that gets people to even, um, open their eyes to, hey, I better make a change, because a lot of folks, um, you know, it sounds like a good idea, and I’ll get to it when I get to it, but is there something that usually is a trigger? When it comes to working with you? Is it is it lead with maybe weight or does it lead with a health crisis? Is there something that happen in their life where they’re like, I better contact Ellen?

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. Yeah. Often? Yes. Unfortunately, some of it is the scary wake up call. You know, the yearly checkup at the doctor where the doctor says that your blood pressure is high and your cholesterol is high, and gives you a prescription for a whole bunch of pills. And, you know, early middle age individuals. I was like, oh, my God, I don’t want to be living on pills. You know, maybe you get the pre-diabetic, um, diagnosis. You know, those things are unfortunately the fear based. But it sometimes is a start. Others quite often it is weight that that is a big draw. I early on started because I come out of the fitness industry, and weight loss was a huge part of my practice. You know, they find me because of that, because they’re just uncomfortable, you know, carrying around 20, 25 pounds. And whether it’s the spouse or the doctor or even their kids saying you got to take some weight off, you know, that is the driver, but they don’t even recognize that weight loss is, again, holistic. It’s not just about what you put in your mouth and how you feed your, you know, how you move and exercise. Stress is a huge calling point where people begin to feel like the stress is unmanageable. And it’s scary that, you know, they’re they’re just worried that they can’t focus anymore because they feel so much stress. The hamstring call, what I mean by I mean the, um, the hamster. Sorry. Suddenly waking up that feeling like I’m a hamster on a wheel that will not stop. And this is not fun. I don’t like the way I’m living. I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. But I don’t even know how to get off. Those are the types of calls that will draw somebody to say, I got to try something different. And so coaching is a really unique option to help people make behavioral change that they may feel very highly motivated to do. But despite that motivation, they’re still struggling to make a significant enough change that it actually changes the way they feel when they open their eyes in the morning.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with your clients, is there you mentioned earlier about coaching and how coaching, you know, might have started more in a business or professional athletes space. And now it’s kind of evolving and it’s changing. And there’s a variety of different coaches for a variety of different things. Is there, um, are people like, proud? Hey, I got a coach, and I’m working on these things. Or is it something that, like, you’re, like, a best kept secret? Like they don’t want other people to know that. Hey, I got a coach, and that’s why I have more energy.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah, that’s actually, to some degree, very true. There still is. It’s not as bad as it used to be. Um, but sort of that same feeling of, you know, most people don’t go around and advertise that, hey, I’m working with a therapist. That must mean there’s something wrong with you. It kind of became this when it’s coaching suddenly became an understandable career. Uh, people were a little when it came to private coaching, not the coaches that are now in corporations who literally recognize the importance of the health aspect, companies bringing in not just executive coaches to help people, um, deal with the many aspects of business relationships with their coworkers being leaders, things like that, that they have to actually hold hands with the health coach because it is the foundation of how we show up every single day. So yeah, there’s definitely a little bit of like, I don’t really want people to know about this because they think that it’s shameful to ask for help. Shameful to say, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have it all together. However, it starts to shift a little bit in the same way that personal training did. You know where it’s like, hey, I’m taking great care of myself. So I’ve invested in myself by hiring a coach to help me be my best me to to show up in my full potential. So I think it depends on, um, for the individual where they sit with their own kind of self-confidence and self-esteem Around how they’re going to, whether they will share or they won’t share.

Lee Kantor: Now, I would think that this is a place where. Organizations and companies can really help. If they make it a benefit or a perk, then it becomes a status. You know that I have a coach. You know that I’m worthy of a coach, that they can really, you know, help with the shift of of eliminating some of the shame when it comes to working on yourself and improving, uh, kind of some of these issues that you’re talking about.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. Yeah. So early on, um, I had several clients who were able to use their, you know, EAP to actually get some coverage for coaching. Um, we are definitely seeing so, so without going too much into the history of health coaching in particular and how it has grown, um, in 2017, I believe, uh, I’m pretty sure that was the first year The National Board certification for health coaches became available. I have seen a huge shift since there is this board certification to companies being interested in bringing on coaches because they recognize it as a, um, a, you know, industry standard. Coaching started out with people thinking it’s this like, you know, woo woo thing you do that isn’t based on science, but the best coaches who’ve had the best education, it is based on science, you know, it is based on physical science. It is based on positive psychology. And so the corporations themselves are feeling more comfortable. You know, I’m I’m in private practice. I’m at the end of my career. So I’m not that involved in what’s available out there. But when I first became a coach, there were no jobs. There was only the entrepreneurial route. But now it’s shifted because companies are out there looking to bring coaches on to help their employees thrive. Companies are recognizing that a happy, healthy employee is actually a better employee, you know? Um, so but they’re all when you look at those ads, they want National Board certified coaches. They want people that have the education behind them.

Lee Kantor: Now, if you were.

Ellen Goldman: Giving, that’s a great.

Lee Kantor: Thing. Yeah, I do too. I think that um, and like you said, that it’s it’s trickling down to, uh, everybody in the organization. It’s not just for the top, uh, C-suite. It’s not just. It’s not kind of remedial to fix, Bob. You’re you’re trying to you’re showing that coaching is a benefit for every employee, and everybody should have access to it, if you can afford that. But what advice would you give an organization if they want to change the culture into a coaching culture and, and incorporate, you know, a coach as part of the benefit package or, or the services they’re providing their people. Is there some do’s and don’ts you’ve learned on how to kind of integrate coaching into a workplace?

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. So I think it begins with that C-suite. It has to begin with the people at the top embracing this idea that we can accept a culture in our company where we do value health, where we do value personal life. You know, years ago, it would be like, you know, you were supposed to show up to the door and leave your personal life outside. You know, you didn’t talk about any problems. You didn’t talk about your family, maybe at lunch with your colleagues, but no. You know, don’t be emotional on the job. But people are starting to recognize that’s unrealistic. You know, we are a whole person all day long. We can’t just do that. And trying to do that impacts the way that we work. So it’s got to begin with the culture that that C-suite has to adopt, that culture that it’s okay that we believe this is a benefit. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It’s not going to impact me. But the other part of it is it is imperative that that company recognizes, and I and I had personal experience in a wonderful opportunity that I had with just a very early on, smart CEO who recognized this and found me and had me come in and create a program for his employees.

Ellen Goldman: And I had to sit with him and explain to him that I’m going to hear a whole bunch of stuff. Some of it might be things that they don’t want you to know. They’ve got to be able to trust in me that behind that door, that coaching door, you know, the work door closes, the coaching door opens. Everything they say is totally within confidence there. You know, I can’t share that information with the C-suite. I remember when I was working with this company, I was the first one to know when women found out they were pregnant. I knew who was thinking about leaving. I knew who was struggling with depression, even though they were supposed to be their top salespeople. I found out this stuff, but they had to feel secure enough in me that the that the work they did was confidential, but I wasn’t sharing that. And I think that both sides of the coin have to understand that both the C-suite managers, etc., and the employee. So I think that’s a very important part. But it’s also one of the most beautiful things about coaching, whether it’s Coaching, you know, in this arena, whether it’s when I’m working with a weight loss client, you know, I’m beginning because I’ve been around for a while.

Ellen Goldman: Some of my followers, they’re getting towards retirement now, rethinking their life and getting a little concerned about what’s the next chapter. I didn’t plan it, but I’m finding occasionally I’m doing a little of transition work, you know, life changing, retirement planning type of work with some of my clients. But the underlying thread, no matter why somebody goes to a coach that I think is the gift of coaching, is finding yourself in this incredibly safe space where you can get all those crazy thoughts out of your head that, you know, you think if anybody heard you say that, they would think you’re nuts. You can actually get them out in a place where there is absolutely no judgment. There is that safety net support. And last but not least, the accountability that comes when you make a decision that I’m going to work towards this, that somebody’s going to keep you accountable, but they’re also not going to judge you if you’re struggling. I think that is the gift of coaching. We, not many of us, have that space in our lives where we can talk about some of the things and our struggles or our fears in that safety place where somebody who’s not emotionally attached to you and will never judge you.

Lee Kantor: Right. It’s a safe place for support and accountability. So you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds. You’re getting that sounding board, but you’re also getting kind of a person that’s going to say, well, you said you want to do this. Did you do this? And, you know, holding them accountable for that. And if they didn’t do that, then you go, well, why didn’t you do that? You know, like.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah, but but the way the. Why didn’t you do that? It’s funny that you phrased it that way. And I’m not picking on you at all because people don’t realize that Y is a very defensive word. People, why didn’t you do that? And they’re like, oh, like a versus. Okay, let’s explore the challenges that showed up this week that stood in the way of you following through with your intentions. It’s a really different way to say, oh, I didn’t do this because I chose to, you know, stay late after work and work on this project rather than head to the gym. You know, and talking about what was going on in your mind and what’s your, again, the long term goals that you’re working towards. Are they still important to you? How can you work around this? You know, if this shows up again, you know, going to the gym feels really important. But also finishing the project feels really. Maybe I should be going to the gym before I go to work. This after work plan is just falling apart. Okay, let’s experiment with that. So it is this trial and error without ever feeling like you. There’s no. You’re a good boy today. You were a bad boy today. Never. Like, what did you learn? Training people to be reflective around their behaviors. Understand what the drivers were. Because when you understand and you become reflective around your behavior, you become way more proactive than reactive.

Lee Kantor: Now, at this stage in your career, do you have kind of an ideal client? Is it an individual or do you work with organizations more? What is kind of the ideal client for you?

Ellen Goldman: So mostly, most of the work that I am doing right now is 1 to 1 in personal. You know, coaching clients that come to me. I also it’s I do work for the company that I trained with, mentoring new coaches who are going through the certification process. They need to work with mentor coaches before they can sit for their oral exams. Um, so interestingly, from that work, I have found a lot of health care professionals that are exploring the entrepreneurial journey and we do a lot of work around. Is that really the best nest path for you? And if it is, how are you going to go out and get your first clients? So that’s kind of on the professional end. The other side of it is when when I somebody reaches out to me, the first thing that I offer them is a what I call a strategy session, where we get on the zoom or phone or FaceTime, whatever they want, and we really explore. And this is a no strings attached meeting. We explore. Why are they reaching out for coach? What is it that they are looking to accomplish? And it is just as important for me to determine is this a good fit for me as it is for them to determine? Am I a good fit for them? And my clients range in gender.

Ellen Goldman: They range in age. They range in where they are in their professional life. But typically most of them are pretty driven professionals working. Or again, I’m starting to see this getting ready to think about retirement and what’s my next chapter going to be. But it’s diverse. It’s more important that we connect and vital to the people that I work with. I believe that physical health and wellbeing and mental health and wellbeing is the baseline that we have to begin with for any change that you want in life, and so they have to be grasping that. Yeah, I kind of think that’s right feeling I’m not a business coach, You know, if somebody was to call me and say, you know, I need to figure out, you know, how to grow in my career. Probably not me being the best coach for them. And I’m going to be honest and tell them that because, you know, what do I want? At the end of the day, it’s not just to keep bringing in clients, it’s the clients to go out and rave about the work that we do together. It has to be a good match.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, connect with you. What is the website? What is the best way to connect?

Ellen Goldman: So the website is WW. Coaching.com. They can reach me via email at ellen@lng.com. Um, and um yeah. Like let’s have a conversation. I love my strategy sessions because it helps me learn more and more about what it is that people need out there where they’re struggling. And I love meeting people. Social connection is a huge part of who we are as individuals, and so there is nothing to be lost from a conversation and maybe a lot to be gained if you recognize that. You know, my passion getting people to thrive both professionally and personally. Wake up in the morning and be excited about the day ahead.

Lee Kantor: Well, Ellen, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Ellen Goldman: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me on. I love chatting and talking and, uh, I hope that this resonates with your audience.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Michelle Gale With Michelle Gale, Ph.D., LLC

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Michelle Gale With Michelle Gale, Ph.D., LLC
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Michelle Gale, Ph.D., Managing Director of Michelle Gale PH.D. LLC.

PCC is a life, career, and leadership coach for women with decades of experience in coaching, clinical psychology, and career counseling. She empowers her clients to make tough choices, navigate personal and professional transitions, cultivate a healthy sense of their own authority, manage relationships effectively, and achieve audacious goals.

Dr. Gale is certified by the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and has a doctorate in clinical psychology from Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia.

Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Her transition from practicing clinical psychology to coaching
  • How are psychotherapy and coaching different

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Michelle Gale, who is the Managing Director of Michelle Gale PH D. Welcome.

Michelle Gale: Thank you Lee.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn about your practice. Tell us a little bit about the work you do.

Michelle Gale: Okay. I think I’m going to tell you the evolution of so that it makes some sense.

Lee Kantor: Okay.

Michelle Gale: Well, I became a clinical psychologist because. Because I grew up in a family with a father who was violent And an alcoholic. And, um, he gave my mother and I a very hard time. And, you know, as a kid, I mean, you don’t have language for this. You don’t. I mean, you can’t even really think about it. You just know something is not right here. And, um, so I grew up, and I learned, you know, that’s called domestic violence. And it’s a huge problem. And it happens around the world. And so, you know, out of the desire to keep other women and children from having to experience the kind of stuff my mother and I experienced, I became a psychologist. So I’m practicing along and I’m doing fine. I like it a lot. It’s a fit and, um, my body goes, goes haywire. I become unable to tolerate the simplest things, the food I’m eating, the, you know, the personal care products I put on my face, the clothes I’m wearing. I mean, you name it, my body went haywire. And it took a little figuring out. I mean, it was some some scary months there. And finally I got a diagnosis. This is called chemical sensitivity. And I’m reacting to chemicals that most of us just, um, will you go through your day and you neutralize these things. But I was reacting to them, which actually goes back to my father and his smoking. That’s that’s another story. So, you know, back then, um, psychology was done only in person. I mean, in order to be able to succeed as a clinical psychologist, you’ve got to be able to invite Strangers into your office and have conversations with them.

Michelle Gale: And all of a sudden. I’m like, um, you know. Do you smoke? Do you wear perfume, Cologne, aftershave? And it becomes impossible, you know? It just becomes impossible. So, um. Well, I mean, I had to spend some time getting a handle on what was going on with me. Physically. I had to calm myself down, um, my body down. And then a friend of mine suggested, what about coaching? And, you know, back then, coaching was often done remotely, whereas psychotherapy, you had to show up in person, you know. So, um, I transitioned to coaching and I have been coaching for, um, years now, like 13 years, 12 or 13 years. And. So at first I didn’t know, okay, what do I do with the skills and the perspective and all that I have as a coach? How does that translate? And um, and really I’m doing I’m working with a very much the same sorts of things as a coach as I did as a psychologist, except instead of working with often with diagnosable mental illness, you’re working with people who are more, you know, um, like, I don’t want to use the word normal. That’s a whole conversation, whether there is a normal. But but people who are functional, you know, highly functional, um, and, um, you know, have have issues to work out in order to be able to achieve their personal and professional goals.

Lee Kantor: So is your approach in helping them similar? Like do you go about the work that you do in a similar way, whether it’s psychology or coaching, or are they totally two different modalities?

Michelle Gale: You know, if you look from the outside, you would say you are doing the same thing, but they are actually very different modalities. One. One is a medical modality. It’s a form of medical treatment, but it uses talking. The other one is a learning modality. Coaching is a learning modality. You’re not treating anything. You don’t have diagnoses, you know. Um, and people sometimes like show up for coaching and they really need therapy or, or vice versa. And so I end up having to explain with some frequency. So in, in psychotherapy, um, you’re going back to the root of the problem, which is invariably in your childhood. And so you’re kind of, you know, your gaze is turned toward the past and you’re sorting out the experiences that you’ve had, who’ve made you you know, who you are today. Um, in coaching, you’re you’re dealing with the present and the future so you can deal with issues from your past as they show up in the present, you know, but but you’re not going back to the roots and of those issues and straightening them out, you know, kind of from the beginning. So, um, it really is two very different methodologies. One another difference is that, um, coaching is very targeted. I mean, people come in and you say, okay, what do you what do you want to accomplish here? You know, and you work toward those goals which sometimes evolve. But you have the the client has goals and you target those goals kind of relentlessly. Um, whereas psychotherapy is much more open ended, you know, and, um, something comes up and, and it seems like there might be something fruitful there. Okay. You go work on that for a while. So, um, the thing about coaching is that it tends to be faster. In other words, the coaching engagement is generally shorter because it’s very targeted. You know, you’re working on one or 2 or 3 very specific things. And when you achieve those things, then you’re done.

Lee Kantor: So are the outcomes kind of similar or are they like like if you spent um six months with a therapist. Would you get a similar outcome of spending six months with a coaching client, or is that probably not?

Michelle Gale: No. Probably not. I mean, six months of psychotherapy. So you’re probably deep in sorting out. Um, the, the, the early issues that you kind of bring with you through your life, um, and that color your perceptions and your responses and reactions wherever you go. Um, you’re probably in that somewhere in six months, you know? Um, six months of coaching. Um, you you’ve set some very specific goals. Like, you know, I want to get a new job. I want to get a promotion. I want to figure out whether I want to stay married to this, to this man or not. Because generally I work with women. Um, but not always. Um, just, you know, targeted goals. And you’ve worked in a focused way on those goals in six months. You know, depending on what the goals are. You you could very well be complete.

Lee Kantor: Now as a practitioner or both. Do you? Or do you still do the psychology or.

Michelle Gale: No. You know, I, I, um I let go of the psychotherapy and of course, now in this post-Covid world, psychotherapy is done remotely, just like coaching. But I’m kind of in a different, you know, I’m in a different world now. And, um, I, I, I just coach now.

Lee Kantor: So.

Michelle Gale: Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m just trying to understand now that you’ve, you’ve experienced both and you’ve had success doing both. Is there one that like, are you liking coaching more? Like, is it more fulfilling? Do you like having that? Oh, I help the person solve a problem and then they feel good, I feel good, and I move on to the next person. Or was it more rewarding to spend a lot of time over a long period of time with somebody to get to the heart of the matter?

Michelle Gale: That’s a hard question to answer, and I’m going to say that. Um, each has its pluses and its minuses. Um, I really liked them both. I mean, they’re very similar sorts of things to do. And the way I understand it, I mean, the way I experience it. Michelle Gayle coaching is, is looking through the eyes of a psychologist. I’m a coach who looks through the eyes of a psychologist, which is which is different, you know, than what most than what most coaches do. Um, so I bring. You know, I bring, um, I bring some things with me that that, um, other coaches probably wouldn’t have available to them and gives my work, um, a uniqueness, you know, um, I’m very happy coaching. I was very happy doing psychotherapy. You know, it’s kind of like. Do you do you prefer chocolate ice cream or do you prefer pistachio ice cream? Well, maybe it depends on the day. You know, I like them both.

Lee Kantor: Now, is your work in, um, coaching? Is that one on one? Like, I assume that your work with the clinical psychology with one on one? Or is there also kind of group and, um, cohorts and things like that in coaching?

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um, well, in both coaching and psychotherapy, you know, um, you can have individual, you can have couples, you can have a group, um, as a coach. Most of my work is individual, but, um, I’m actually, um, working on designing a a small group experience. Now that I’m looking forward to launching in the not too distant future that that I’m excited about. Um, so, um, I do individual and I will soon be doing group and, you know, as, as a psychologist, I did individual couples, I did family, I did group. I mean, um, it’s that’s a fun thing, you know, that that you can do different sorts of things. You don’t have to do the same thing day in and day out.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for other coaches that are listening now if they are never done group before? There are some do’s and don’ts of, uh, managing the needs of a group.

Michelle Gale: Absolutely. Solutely. I mean, because you can coach individually. That in and of itself is not necessarily is is is not going to make you a terrific group coach. Um, group. You know, the commonality in both of them, um, is that first and foremost, you have to be able to create a safe space for your client or clients. And this is true in individual and in group. Nobody will open their mouth, you know, if you can’t do that. Um, but group involves, you know, uh, a whole other set of skills about how do you, how do you balance among the people in the group, you know, how do you make sure No one fades into the woodwork and no one dominates that, you know? Um, it’s, um, it’s a whole other skill set, and there’s training and group coaching, just like there is an individual coaching. But before I think out of, you know, out of respect, um, for the work, you would want to get group training before you actually did it.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re working a group or the is the group typically around a topic or a subject matter rather than just, uh, a general kind of type of coaching, like, are they there because they are all, um, you know, want to work on leadership skills or they’re all trying to get a job or something like that?

Michelle Gale: Um, there’s all different kinds of groups, just like there is all different kinds of Individual engagements. Um, I’m going to be focusing the group that I’m working on, planning, um, around a set of, um, like many lessons at the beginning of each group. And then we do we do individual exercises, and then we come together as a group and talk. Um, that’s the way I’m going to be doing that. But but there’s a lot of room for creativity there.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for the individual that maybe has never had a coach before? What are some do’s and don’ts when it comes to starting a new coaching uh, relationship with somebody.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Well you know item number one with coaching I mean if you go to a psychologist and they really are a licensed Psychologist. You got a whole licensed psychologist there. But if you go to a coach, coaching is a little more of a Wild West at this point. Um, there are coaching credentials, but there are people who coach who don’t have any credentials. So it’s a real good idea to start by making sure the person has a coaching credential. Often, especially in the United States, that would be ICF, the International Coaching Federation. But there are other, um, you know, worthwhile credentials that coaches have. And if you have a coach who’s put up a shingle and they don’t have any credentials, I mean, no, they don’t know what they’re doing. Don’t go to them. Um, that would be the first thing. Uh, the second thing is, you know, these things are very personal. Um, there. Someone could be a very competent coach and just. There’s no chemistry there. You know, like, the two of you don’t like talking to each other very much. Or, uh, the coach really doesn’t have the expertise you seek. So it’s a personal thing. You know, you go, you have a conversation, and you see what you think. I mean, is this a person in whom you think you can place your trust over time? Of course, you don’t start out with trust. You start out with, um, okay, I don’t know. But over time, does this feel like a person that you could come to trust? And if the answer is yes, then that’s a real good place to start.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you manage the within the coach? Coach, I guess. Relationship. Um, how do you how does the person who’s being coached. Kind of. Decide, okay, this person’s asking me hard questions or is asking me to do things I don’t want to do, and I’m uncomfortable. But maybe that’s in their best interest, and maybe that’s the role of the coach to be pushing them and to, you know, not just being their friend and supporting you, you just but by, you know, if you came here to accomplish this, you’re going to have to do some hard things. And you’re a person who can do hard things. So I’ll, you know, help you get through it. But ultimately you have to do the work in order to get the result you desire. And how do you kind of know that? Oh, I, I don’t like them asking me to do hard things because it makes me I’m nervous about doing this and I’m scared. So how do I know that that coach is the right coach for me, or should I just pull the plug if I’m, you know, not feeling it?

Michelle Gale: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Um, so, you know, the coach doesn’t really, um, a good coach doesn’t set goals for the client. You know, you don’t ask the client to do stuff. You facilitate the client and deciding what is their next step, and you support them and being able to do it. I mean, you don’t like a good coach does not push clients. And if you did push clients, you would just lose them very quickly. I mean, you know, we it’s a collaboration. You you as a coach, you like walk alongside the client. You enable the client to do things that the client wouldn’t be able to do on his or her own. But it’s the client. It’s the client who decides. Okay, you know, I’m up to this. I’m ready to do this now. This is my next initiative. Not the coach who says, go out there and do that thing.

Lee Kantor: But isn’t there some point? There has to be some accountability. Isn’t some of the coach’s role to be the accountability partner, to say, hey, you said you were going to make these five calls. How many did you make? I made one. It’s like, well, you’re not going to get to where you want to go. If if the goal, you know, you say you’re gonna do five and you did one.

Michelle Gale: Okay. Yeah. I mean, there is certainly accountability and you’re in service of the client. So let’s say you said you were going to do five calls, but you did one. My response to that is not where are the other four calls. You’re never going to succeed like this. My response to that is And how come you didn’t make the other four? You know what all happened there? Unpacking it and looking with the client at what happened. How was it that you got through? One. I mean, was it that bad that you didn’t get to the other four? What? What’s going on? You know, and and you work with the client, you discover, you know, if there’s a block there. What? What’s the block? And how should we deal with it? But you don’t like, um, you know, give the client a scolding because they they didn’t keep all of their agreements. I mean, we do the best we can, you know, and if and people who show up for coaching, well, they need a little help. We all need help, you know, at times.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with a client, did you have early on, um, a sign that, hey, I think I’m good at this. I’m going to be able to pull this off. Like, were you getting kind of the positive responses that you were looking for or your clients were getting success quickly? Like, were there certain signals to you that was like, okay, I’m going to be able to make this transition from practicing clinical psychology to coaching. You know, I’m getting a lot of signs that I’m on the right track here.

Michelle Gale: Well, yeah, I mean, I would say the first sign was I knew how to do things they hadn’t taught me how to do yet, you know, and, um, that was acknowledged like by people who were training me. Oh, wow. You know. Um, so that was the first sign. Okay, this you’re going to be able to make this transition, you know? Um, and, and as far as my relationships with clients went, um, you know, I had to learn some things, um, really to transition. Um. So. So you take your cues from your clients, like, what are they needing? Um, but. Yeah, people. It’s an individual thing. I’m not. I’m not the coach for every person on earth. You know, just like you’re not everyone’s cup of tea. Some people really like you, and some people will go work with someone else. But, um. But I, as a psychologist, you know, I learned how to create a rapport with people with whom I had nothing in common. Really? I mean nothing. And because you have to be able to do that in order to help them, you know. And with coaching, um. That’s it’s it’s a little easier in coaching. Um, you know, it’s not that great a range, Perhaps of clients, but, um. Yeah. I mean, that’s an ability that I took from psychology that I, that I transferred over to coaching is knowing how to be with a person, you know, to help them articulate what they’re needing and. To help them, you know, go through a learning and growth process that will enable them to get there. And when people feel like you can do that and it’s something they genuinely want, well, they’re very happy. You know.

Lee Kantor: Now when you have a coaching engagement, how do you know when it’s done? Like do they just like you said, an objective early on and say, okay, I, you know, I’m doing coaching because I want to be promoted. So then you work on that and then they’re promoting you and they just say thank you, bye. Or is it something that, um, is a moving kind or the goalposts, constantly moving as people’s life, you know. Once you achieve something, you’re usually looking for the next mountain to conquer.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Yeah. You know. Um. So let’s say you come to coaching because you want a promotion and, and you know, however many months were maybe a year later you get that promotion, you feel complete. Um, in you haven’t just gotten a promotion. You’ve also addressed all the issues that you needed to address that were in the way of your getting a promotion. You know, so you’ve you’ve experienced some personal growth alongside, um, achieving this objective that, that you would set for yourself. And at that point, you know, people make a decision mostly if you have achieved your goal in coaching, you feel like you’re done. You know that’s what you came for. And you know, you may circle around a year or 2 or 3 later and say, I’ve got myself another real challenge here. I could use some help or not. Um, uh, usually that’s the case. And on occasion, yeah, other things evolve and you decide, you know, now I’d like to work on this, but generally speaking, when a coaching client achieves his or her or her goal, um, they feel complete, and and they leave.

Lee Kantor: So. And then you’re both kind of good with it, and then you just move on to the next client. Is that it sounds it sounds coaching sounds more transactional than maybe therapy does.

Michelle Gale: Well it isn’t. I mean, it’s shorter lived, you know, and it’s more circumscribed. Um, I but the the the part of your question I really want to address, um, is this business about, you know, are you both good with that? And you go on to the next client. Um, I got some training, um, as a coach early on as a coach that said, basically, you know, don’t relinquish those clients easily. You know, keep them around as long as you can. And and I was confused because that’s not what you do as a, as a psychologist. You know, when when they want to move on, they move on whether they’re finished or not. Your job is to let go. Um, and, um, and I got some training early on as a coach that said, no, you know, that’s not what you do. And so I tried that, you know, a few times and actually it backfired horribly. You when somebody is ready to move on, you support them and moving on. You know, you don’t admonish them. You don’t try to manipulate them into staying. People have to do what they feel is right and what they feel is right in the moment. You know, and if you get in their way, it’s not going to go well.

Lee Kantor: So is there a story you can share? Maybe a success story that don’t name the name of the person, but maybe share an example of what the challenge they had when they started with you, and how you were able to help them get to a new level.

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um. One of the things I see a lot of I see people who are in mid-career. Who are still behaving as though they’re kind of baby professionals, not full professionals, um, in that, um, they’re low on self-confidence and they look outside them for approval. In other words, they are still trying to prove themselves when actually they already have. You know, they have whatever credentials they need to do the thing they do. Um, they’ve been doing it for a while, you know, they have they have work. They have a boss. Boss isn’t like, oh my gosh, you don’t know what you’re doing. You should leave. Everybody’s happy with them. And they are still there, like exhausting themselves, trying to prove themselves. This this habit that they learned long ago. You know, as kids, as students, um, of kind of, um, putting the authority outside of themselves, um, as opposed to owning it, you know, taking ownership of, um, their own process, um, who they are as a professional and being able to evaluate themselves. And so I see a fair amount of this and I have to say, um, it’s pretty common among women, but I, I see it in men, too. And, um, and it’s not, you know, these are not people who just started doing what they’re doing a few months ago, in which case you probably are still trust yourself, and that’s the best module that makes sense. You know, these are people who’ve been doing something for years and they’re still trying to prove themselves. So, um, so when I work with someone who’s got that kind of, you know, dynamic going on, and I helped them get to a place where they feel like they know who they are as, as professionals, as as adults and as professionals, and they become more capable of evaluating how they’re doing for themselves.

Michelle Gale: And. Some are much less hung up about what other people see in them. You know, how how other people feel like they’re doing. I mean, not that you become cold and callous and uncaring, but that you’re capable of making your own choices. You know that, you know, you’re a competent professional, you know, and you kind of. You get yourself situated in that so that what happens is, um, instead of your attention being divided and part of you is working on whatever issue you’re working on, you know, for the company, for the client, whatever, um, part of you is working on that. And, and the other part of you is working on, oh my goodness, am I doing okay. What does he think of me? What does she think of me? You know, um, and when you let go of and you can be 100% fully present with the work, whatever it consists of. This is, um, you know, this is a real leap in, in what’s professional development, but it’s also personal development. Those things really aren’t divisible. Um, and, and that’s the sort of thing I often do with my clients. It’s one of the issues I work on. There are others, but that’s an example of, you know, when it works, um, that’s what it can look like.

Lee Kantor: And then once you can get through that, then that’s forever. That’s a, you know, once you can have that belief in yourself and then who you are and what you’ve accomplished, that’s a lasting impact, I’m sure.

Michelle Gale: Exactly. And that’s the thing I think, that people don’t always take into account when they enter coaching, but it’s so important, Written, which is I mean, you not only got whatever the specific goal was that you came to, to achieve. You developed yourself to a point where you know you’re playing a different ballgame now. And and as you said, that stays with you wherever you go. That’s going to go with you. And that’s, you know, that’s the thing that’s so compelling about coaching. I mean, that you’re not yes. You’re helping people meet their goals. And in the moment that’s super important to them, you know, but you’re also helping them develop as individuals. And that’s really why I do what I do.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Michelle Gale: There sure is. Um. It’s Michelle Gale. Um, there’s a contact form on there, and I’m very happy to talk to people who aren’t sure if this is right for them, but are interested.

Lee Kantor: And Gayle is about Gayle.

Michelle Gale: Good point. So Michelle has two L’s. Am I h e l l e and Gayle is g l e shel Gayle p h d.

Lee Kantor: Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Michelle Gale: Thank you so much, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

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