Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Michelle Warner, who is with MW Coaching and Consulting. Welcome, Michelle.

Michelle Warner: Good morning Lee. Thank you for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us a little bit about your practice. How you serving folks?

Michelle Warner: Certainly. So I work with mid to senior career professionals and with businesses that find themselves stuck in situations that are no longer serving their purpose. So for individuals, people who are feeling maybe a little trapped in their current position, not getting the recognition that they want. Not feeling fulfilled. Not knowing what’s next. And for businesses, I really dig in deep on those culture changes that are needed. I found over the course of my career that every company knows who their top toxic employees are, and unfortunately, it’s tolerated for too long in the business sense, and it opens businesses up to risk. So as an attorney, I’ve seen the bad side when it goes on too long. And as a coach, I get to help and be more proactive and help avoid those problems.

Lee Kantor: So you mentioned formerly an attorney. I don’t know if you’re still practicing, but can you talk a little bit about your backstory and how you got into coaching?

Michelle Warner: Certainly. I fell into it a little bit accidentally. I was in-house for an organization. We had some HR challenges coming at them from the very directive. I’m the lawyer. This is how we have to fix this. Problem was not working. So I looked for additional tools and resources. Went to the center for Executive Coaching, really with the intent to broaden my skills as an attorney. And going through that training has absolutely helped me be a better lawyer. And how I ask questions, how I frame things, how I create more space. So as I was doing my training, I realized this was the pivot for me and that being able to stand next to my clients and support them and watch them tap into their own magic inside it said my soul in a way that I wasn’t looking for, but it came to me at absolutely the right time and it’s been the best change I ever made.

Lee Kantor: Now, have you ever been coached yourself prior to this?

Michelle Warner: I had been coached prior to that, so I had a friend of a friend who several years ago, at a time in my life when everything was up in the air, I was in the middle of a divorce and my mother was ill and really stuck Stuff myself and not knowing where to go, and a friend of a friend was doing her own coach training program and needed hours to get through her program. And I offered to be her guinea pig. And it was a very different way of looking at it, right? I was seeing a therapist at the same time, and he provided insights with the insight that this coach provided for me and the way she asked questions and framed things differently. It all blended together so nicely with what I was hearing, that it really made me able to look at things the other way. And then more recently, while I was in-house, we brought in coaches for a number of our leadership team members. So I had the benefit of having two really wonderful coaches that I worked with through that project as well.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with coaches, and at that point you were, um, part of the team and you were saying, hey, let’s get some coaches in for the team. How like how are you going to judge? Like if this is working, how are you going to vetting the coaches? Like what was kind of the thinking of implementing something like this, that it sounds like it was new to the organization.

Michelle Warner: It was new to the organization. Coaching is very personal. So having the right fit between the coach and the client. So with the organization, we went to a company, uh, where it’s a solopreneur, woman owned business, but she has affiliations and a team that she has built of other solopreneur coaches who she can tap into for engagements. So she brought a list, a roster of coaches, if you will, narrowed it down based on the information we provided about who was getting coached and what we needed. And then the employees were given the option from a curated list of coaches to pick who they wanted to work with, and that worked really well. So everybody got to choose, hey, I think this person is the best fit for me.

Lee Kantor: And the framing to the, uh, the team wasn’t. Hey. We’re fixing. Bob and Mary were. It was. Hey, we have a coach that’s going to really help. Kind of bring out the best in you.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. We were working on a strategic plan and updating that. So it was brought in as part of, hey, we’re working on this strategic plan. There were a number of group facilitated sessions. And then the individuals we started with, the C-suite, uh, moved on to several directors, and then the planet is to roll it out beyond that. Um, and that’s still in process. So and when you ask, how do you know it’s working? It shows up in how people show up at the office. If people are experiencing negative feedback for behaviors that seem to get them what they wanted in the past, they recognize the value of changing to be more aligned with the company culture. And it’s not a good or a bad proposition. So when I go in and I coach clients, and even if I brought in by a sponsor company, it’s not like, oh, your company thinks you’re horrible, it’s your company thinks there’s a lot here. However, they’re noticing some conflicts with some of your coworkers, and they want to support you and make you the best fit you can be.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, you mentioned kind of the toxic, uh, employee or the person that could be a high performer and be toxic, or they could be a high performer and be a bully. There’s lots of ways that that kind of shows itself in an organization. When you’re approaching that individual. Do they have the self-awareness that that’s something that, hey, maybe I should work on this or hey, it’s got me this far. Why? You know, don’t fix something that’s not broken. Like. Like how do you kind of manage that individual?

Michelle Warner: So it depends on where they are. If they’re a little bit self-aware, we have something to work with. If they’re not at all self-aware. Uh, depending on where they are in their career and whether they’ve had any assessments like link, personality Profile or Disk or Bachman or any of the sort of big five personality type tests. If they have had those in the past, I won’t recommend an additional assessment if they haven’t had them. I’m certified to administer the personality Profiler, Which I love. It is a big five personality test, but it also looks at your motivations and your competencies. And those assessments aren’t the be all and end all. It is a data point. So I would start with those clients and talk about this particular personality trait showed up in your assessment. Let’s talk about that. And sometimes that sparks a deeper conversation. And there’s another assessment that I also love, the saboteur assessment that from Shazad Amin on his positive intelligence. And that looks at the ways we get in our own way and everybody has them, but we all show up differently when we’re not being the best version of ourselves. So if they previously had assessments, I’m going to look at those and we’re going to discuss those. If they hadn’t. I’m going to use link in a saboteur assessment to get a baseline to have a discussion with the client. Hey, what do you think about this? Uh. Does this resonate? Does it not? Let’s talk about it. Tell me about times when you haven’t gotten what you wanted. Because the reality is, what got you here can’t get you there. And we’re all a little hardwired to default to the negative. So being able to recognize when we don’t show up as the best version of ourselves and to self-regulate and to stop that and see the immediate effect of how people react differently when you’re not in a heightened emotional state. It really is life changing. And it’s not big, huge changes that need to be made. Sometimes it’s a very small thing that makes an enormous difference and then gives you something more to build on.

Lee Kantor: Now is your most of your work nowadays with the corporations and kind of steering them into kind of a coaching culture, or are you working mostly with kind of that, uh, executive that’s kind of at a plateau or is, uh, navigating a difficult situation?

Michelle Warner: I have a mix of clients with companies who know that they have, uh, things that they would like to see done differently in their culture. And then I have individuals who reach out and say, hey, I want to find some something better for myself. And I’m a little stuck. I don’t know how to get there. And then I also do some facilitation. Uh, I have, you know, so, for example, team building with an in-house legal department where they have identified what, based on their internal company surveys, where they think they would like to have more impact with the legal department. So I have an upcoming full day facilitation with them to really help them dive deeper in a way that doesn’t feel confrontational for their team, which is an amazingly strong team. But to improve and help them navigate where they go next?

Lee Kantor: Um, are your clients mostly lawyers or in the legal field, or you kind of work in professional services, or is it kind of industry agnostic at this point?

Michelle Warner: It really is industry agnostic, definitely more toward professional services. But the types of issues that clients come to are really universal struggles. What do I want out of life? What can be, you know, why am I not getting? Why do I feel unfulfilled? Why am I not getting the opportunities I want? And it you recognizing it’s the way I show up sometimes? And how do I do differently? How do I make small changes without giving up the core of myself. And I think particularly for women in business, to get to be successful, you’ve had to have a very strong personality, and then sometimes that gets turned on you as, oh, you’re abrasive or you’re seen as not a team player. And that’s not necessarily a fair characterization, but it feels incredibly scary to try and soften your persona when being the tough, confident in charge woman 100% of the time has gotten you to where you are now.

Lee Kantor: So how do you kind of coach a person through that specific challenge, like when they feel they had to be this way in order to get to where they are, and then maybe they have to be more of their whole self, maybe how they are not in the office in order to get to where they want to go.

Michelle Warner: It depends on how they’re feeling about it. Um, how I would coach them. I would work through. Yes. It has gotten you all of these things that you say, but this got me there. And what have you had to give up? What have you had to tolerate? What have you not had access to because you were stuck on this pass and really dive into those limiting beliefs, and to why you couldn’t be a little bit more vulnerable. Ask for help when it was appropriate. Say no when people were pushing your boundaries beyond the point that was healthy for you. You. And when you start to have those conversations and dig into that, people very quickly realize how you get, Yeah. Oh, I’m feeling really resentful because my boundary was pushed. Why did I feel that way? Okay, well, I wanted to do this. I had my plans. I intended to leave the office at 5:00 for my out of office life, whatever that is. And somebody came to me because they didn’t do their job. And it’s 445 and, oh, it’ll just take a minute and, you know, it’ll take more than just a minute and you’re going to be late leaving for your own life. But you give in anyway because you feel the pressure. So we will work around one. Why? They felt that they had to do that, and two, how to set boundaries respectfully and consistently so that you make clear what you are going to tolerate. And it’s really a personal and individual conversation because we all have different triggers about things that push our boundaries.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you see this as kind of. Blind spots, or do you see this as just, um, not having that self-awareness that this was happening? Like, how how do you see this in the individual, or is is it something that I’m sure once you tell them, it’s like, oh, I like you reframing it in a way that seems very clear now that, oh, I do have choices and I don’t have to give the guy a minute if I don’t want to. Um, once you once, you’re kind of giving them permission. Do they just not have the language?

Michelle Warner: So sometimes it’s not having the language. Sometimes it’s societal conditioning that we get trapped in the things you should be doing or the subliminal messages even. I mean, sometimes they’re not even subliminal. Right. Oh, well, good girls act this way. Oh, good girls don’t do that. Or really high performers. Or you see the people above you. Modeling behavior that is at odds with where you want to be. So for example, companies that say, oh, we’re family friendly and we have great parental leave options, but nobody ever takes it or there’s a lot of pressure or people are talked about when they’re taking that. The message that someone gets when it is time for them to exercise, that parental leave or family leave to care for other family members, they still don’t do it because the message that comes out is very different. And sometimes it’s it is a blind spot and you just haven’t thought of it that way. I was very fortunate early in my career. I had an amazing boss and mentor and I was, you know, 26. I was a brand new manager running a statewide program with multiple offices, and we were making some changes to the way things had been done.

Michelle Warner: And I somebody from the office, one of the distant offices, called and said, well, that’s not how we do this. And my response, because I was 26 and thought I knew everything was, I don’t care how you’ve done it in the past, I’m in charge of this program and this is how we’re going to do it. Yikes. Thinking about it now, it still makes me cringe. And she, of course told her boss, who was my peer. That peer called our boss. He called me into his office and said, listen. But what he did, in addition to saying to me, hey, you can’t do that. There’s a better way to frame that, I get this. He made very clear to my peer. I brought Michelle in. I did bring her in to run this program, and we will talk about how she conveyed information to you. But make no mistake, when she’s telling you things are changing. It’s coming from me. So he supported me and guided me. So externally, he had my back. But he also called me to the carpet and said, hey, that’s not okay. You can’t do that.

Lee Kantor: Right? But it was more about your communication, not your what you were planning on doing.

Michelle Warner: Correct. But I think there are too many people that when we talk about the toxic high performers, right, they tend to bulldoze over people because they feel like their responsibility to get something done. And what I found is a lot of them, nobody tells them. Nobody says directly to them, this is unacceptable in this workplace right now.

Lee Kantor: I agree 100%. I think that your I think what your boss did was very generous and, and that’s probably kind of how most bosses should be is to watch. You know, I got your back. And next time, let’s say it this way.

Michelle Warner: And unfortunately, a lot of people who are great individual contributors get promoted to manager without any additional training or any information on how to make that transition. How to be a good boss, how to manage people that used to be your peers, and now you’re directing them in some way.

Lee Kantor: Right. And not everybody is equipped to make that transition smoothly without help.

Michelle Warner: Yeah. Again, I think everybody can use help, even if you think you’re equipped or not. Because every new role, every new position, yes, you have transferable skills that you’ve brought from your lived experience, other places, but still, hey, this is how things are done here. Here are things that seem to be working well. I mean, not to lock people into. Well, this is how we’ve always done it. Because I think that is the worst thing any place can do, right? Uh, just that blind allegiance to this is how we’ve done it in the past, right? So look at what’s a critical look. And the beauty of coaching is that it creates the grace and space for people to just take that critical look. Take that pause. Think about those things and have somebody who’s not tied to a particular outcome other than what is best for the client. What is the what is going to be best for you? That’s what I’m going to help support and guide you toward. But I’m not going to advise and tell you, oh, this is the way it has to be done. And to to watch a client go from, I’m having this problem to I now have a plan on how to move forward with. This is just one of the most amazing gifts that I have gotten out of this.

Lee Kantor: Now is that. Um. I’m always curious when talking to coaches when it comes to the boundaries between coaching and consulting. And I know your firm is both coaching and consulting, but where does the. I’m here to ask you questions and and hey, do these three things begin. You know, if you just do these three things, you’re probably going to get a good result.

Michelle Warner: Well, I think there’s a false equivalency there. It based on my experience, others experience doing these three things will get you a good result. But that’s not always the case. It may not be the right result. So with my clients, if I am going to offer, first of all, I don’t jump in to save them, right? My clients are magic and fabulous and they have everything they need to excel within themselves. I just help pull that out. Shine a light. Reflect back as a mirror. So we are. My client and I are equals. I am not the person in charge. Unlike a therapy relationship or even like a consulting relationship. You have a problem. I know how to fix it. That’s not how I go in as a coach. It’s. What are you looking to get? How are we going to create this as equals? And then once we get in, and if they are working and they are really at a point where I do have some insight that might be helpful to them, I will ask for permission. Would you like some advice? Do you just want to vent about this problem or would you like to some advice? Or maybe to workshop some solutions on how to get that? So asking for that permission before giving me advice makes it more easily receivable.

Michelle Warner: I think we’ve all been in those situations, particularly with well-meaning friends or family members, when all you want to do is vent about something and they try and tell you and then, you know, your hackles get a little bit up and you get very defensive right away, as if this person who you know, loves and cares about you thinks you’re not capable of managing your own life. And but what I found is, even in those situations where my clients have accepted the offer of advice, if I say, well, have you thought about or in my experience, I tried and whatever it is and it’s it’s happened, you know, it’s almost universal. And they go, oh no, I could never do that. Okay. Well what could you do? Or. No, I don’t like that. But that just sparked an idea. So it’s not even about them taking my advice. It’s about putting something on the table that sparks a different direction.

Lee Kantor: And when you’re working with these individuals through these challenges, how do they know if they’re on the right track, that they have a good fit with you as the coach? Is there any kind of advice when a person is with a new coach or starting a relationship like this? How do you. Are there kind of signs or signals that, hey, this is going to work out?

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. So with my clients, I always do a complimentary discovery call before considering an engagement. I am very intuitive, so what I am looking for in a client is somebody who is actually ready and willing to dig deep, and sometimes people are willing, but they’re not ready. And for the client side, as you’re having this discovery, call with this coach. Do you feel comfortable? Can you see yourself sharing information with this person? Are you being treated as an equal in that conversation? Because if any of those things are no or if you’re a afraid and that’s not really the right word. But if you’re hesitant, if you don’t think, hey, this is somebody I can have an open conversation with and trust that they are going to create a safe space for me to tell them these really personal things about my life, um, or about, you know, my business, whatever it is, that’s not the right fit. So it’s a little bit of art and a little bit of science. I mean, as a client, what does your gut tell you? Do you feel comfortable with this person? And if you don’t, it’s okay to say no. I would much rather if there’s somebody that I don’t think I’m working with him. And there were a great group of coaches that I went through my training program with that we have a whole separate cohort that we all still stay in touch. I have coached with all of them. So if somebody comes to me and they aren’t, I don’t feel like I’m the right fit. I would much rather say to the client, hey, I’m not the right fit for you. I’m going to give you a couple of names of other people that I know and that I trust. I think one of them might be better than start an engagement with a client, get several months in. I’m unhappy. They’re unhappy. And that’s just a bad way to do things. And and it’s harmful to the client.

Lee Kantor: So again, your intuition is kind of your, your guide when it comes to this from the client standpoint. If you feel this isn’t working then you should probably get a different coach.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. I mean, your coach should be listening to you. If your coach is doing all of the talking and directing, where are you in the center of that equation? Right. So even though my clients and I are equal in the relationship in terms of power, I expect my clients and I want it space for my clients to work through their issues. It’s not about a coach showing how smart they are and how how good they are. It’s someone who can sit quietly and listen intently and hear sometimes the things that aren’t being said and and dig deep on that. So if the client doesn’t feel like they are at the center of the conversation, so it’s not all about them. That may not be the right fit.

Lee Kantor: Now, are you seeing anything? Um. Any trend? Maybe when it comes to the younger workers, are they their attitudes towards work and, um, and their job seems a lot different than maybe previous generations like that. It seems to me that they’re less tolerant of this kind of bullying or misbehavior, and they’re very quick to pull the plug if things aren’t working out the way they would like. Is, are you seeing that in your coaching? Are they how are they, as you know, coaching clients? Or is there an expectation for them to have coaching as part of their job now?

Michelle Warner: I think some of them may have that expectation. I think there’s a balance. I think younger people who are unwilling to bend their boundaries and say, hey, you know, you’ve paid me for these hours and this is what I’m going to give you to the best of my ability. And getting out of that management expectation that they that the company owns you, so to speak, and that they have access to you at all times. Now again, the higher you get up in the organization, depending on what your responsibilities are. I’m not talking about if there’s an emergency situation or something that it really needs all hands on deck and it’s going to be an extension, but that shouldn’t be the norm. So I think younger workers are bringing a breath of fresh air with that and making people question why, right? It’s not healthy. It burns people out. The other reality is that the loyalty tax is real. If you leave and go to a new job, even if it is the same title, you will get paid more than if you stay where you are and work your way up. So I think companies need to take a look at how they’re caring about retaining their employees, rather than just recruiting them.

Michelle Warner: On the flip side of that, I think the younger A generation needs to learn to be a little bit more patient. They are not going to be the star right away. They are not going to come in at entry level and be a vice president in two years. Um, and I think sometimes they need to sit back a little bit and observe a little bit more and then offer those suggestions for moving things forward. Um, I think I love a hybrid work environment, but I would not be the lawyer that I became if I had started my career fully remote or even hybrid, because so much of what I learned happened informally because we were all physically in the same place. So I think the more we can find a balance and allow that flexibility, that remote or hybrid working gives companies and gives individuals to have a life outside of the office, but a little bit more structured. And again, I think it’s incumbent upon those of us who are a little bit older to stop talking about, well, this is how we did it, and find ways to convey that information and create that connection. So I think there has to be a lot more listening on both sides.

Lee Kantor: Now, what is kind of the pain that your corporate clients are feeling where, hey, maybe I should bring Michelle in. What what what are they? What are some of the symptoms that they have? Um, a situation that having a coach like yourself would benefit them.

Michelle Warner: High turnover in a particular department.

Lee Kantor: That’s usually. That’s kind of the. Hey, that’s a warning light. Um, if if we’re if we’re having a hard time hiring or we’re having a lot of turnover, that’s a sign that something’s amiss.

Michelle Warner: Yes. If they’re doing exit interviews and their exit interviews are all saying the same thing. If they have a compliance hotline. And when they look at the data behind the compliance hotline. And let’s say you have two out of ten departments that have far higher complaints into the hotline, regardless of whether they are substantiated as violating anything. Right. There are all of these early warning triggers that something might not be right. So what? And anytime they are getting the same message. You know, over a consistent time period or repeated from different people across different sectors, that’s when they should be taking a look at their culture and what they are tolerating and, and allowing and thinking about bringing in a code to take a look, to see what is beneath that.

Lee Kantor: And let’s look at the individual. What’s what are some of the symptoms that a coach might be beneficial for an individual.

Michelle Warner: So if they are consistently getting good performance reviews but not getting opportunities, they’re not getting promotions. They are getting a high reviews, but they feel like they’re checking it in. You know, they can phone it in and there they there are no more opportunities for growth. And if they’re feeling stagnant and stuck and hey, I’ve kind of done everything I could do here, but I don’t know what. I’ve been doing it for so long and I’ve gotten really good at it. It’s scary to think about what’s next. So any of those things where it’s, you feel like you’ve reached a plateau and you’re not happy with that plateau because there sometimes you get to a plateau and it’s okay to stay there for a little while. If you’re if you’re still getting fulfillment and joy and engagement, even though you recognize you’ve taken a little break and you’re not continuing an upper progression that you want, that’s okay. But if you’re unhappy being there, that’s when you should look for a coach.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there a story you can share, um, that, um, describes maybe how you help someone get to a new level? Is there? You don’t obviously name the individual, but maybe share the problem that they came to you with and how you were able to help them navigate through that and get to a new place.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. So this was actually I was a volunteer coach at the Pennsylvania Conference for women. And so again, very different than a normal engagement, right. You show up and folks sit down for, you know, 20, 25 minutes and have a chat with you and one woman came and she sat down and her stated problem was, I need to have a conversation with my boss because she’s showing favoritism to one of my direct reports. And so we talked about that. What was her relationship with the boss? What’s going on in the department? You know who else is on the team? And in just 20 minutes, because I created space for her to really think about the problem without the emotions of, oh my God, I have to have this conversation with my boss that I really don’t want to have. He had come up with a framework on a recommendation to her boss on how to realign the work that the team was doing, one to take better use of what she was perceiving as favoritism for this, one employee was really that employee had certain skills that the other person at that level didn’t really have the skills for and didn’t show any and like had very clearly expressed that they didn’t have an interest in doing anyway, but to create a more equitable distribution of work, to take some things off her boss’s plate, to solve a problem in a large in the larger company where there had been these gaps, which was causing some of these problems. And so she went from dreading a conversation with her boss to really excited to go back and put this plan that she came up with on paper, and then present it with her boss and have additional dialog.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, it’s so funny. Just the power of reframing is so, so important. And having an expert like you to help kind of give them the space to find that is just it’s very it’s a gift really.

Michelle Warner: It is. And I mean, it’s a gift for me when my clients take that reframe and you see the energy in their body change, that you see their face start to light up and the literal light bulb going on, um, and they go, oh, wait, okay. And then they can take it and they can run with it. This thing that was right.

Lee Kantor: It was weighing on them, right? It was weighing on them. And now you’ve just lightened their load that now they they feel more in control that they, they are they’re not kind of the victim of the circumstance. They are the change agent of the circumstance.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. And again, the the beauty of coaching is it creates that space. Um, and we all say, oh, well, I could sit down, you know, people say, oh, well, I could just sit down and think these things out myself. You absolutely could. But are you going to.

Lee Kantor: Right.

Michelle Warner: And when there’s somebody who’s there that, you know, is an accountability partner and that you know, that you have paid for to block off this chunk of time, it changes how you perceive it.

Lee Kantor: Right. And and to your point about the accountability. Um, I always tell people like you break promises to yourself every day, but you keep appointments. So when you pay, you show up usually, you know, so.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: If you if you want the change to happen, you might need some help here.

Michelle Warner: Well and again we we all need that right. We all. If I know I’m meeting my girlfriend at the gym to go to yoga class, I’m more likely to show up than if I’m going myself. Right.

Lee Kantor: Exactly.

Michelle Warner: I don’t feel like going today.

Lee Kantor: Right? It’s raining. It’s cold. Right. But. Oh, I gotta meet Susan there. So then I’m showing up because I don’t want to let her down.

Michelle Warner: Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: Well, Michel, if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, what is the best way to connect? Is there a website?

Michelle Warner: Absolutely. The website is my coaching net. Um, my direct email is Michelle with two L’s at my coaching net. And then I’m also on LinkedIn under Michelle Warner.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your story today, doing such important work. And we appreciate you.

Michelle Warner: Thank you. Lee, I appreciate you and I appreciate your time.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.