Mike Stark With Association of the Wall and Ceiling Industry

Intro: [00:00:02] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Association Leadership Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:17] Lee Kantor here another episode of Association Leadership Radio, and this is going to be a fun one. Today on the show, we have Mike Stark with the Association of the Wall and Ceiling Industry. Welcome, Mike.

Mike Stark: [00:00:29] Thank you, Lee. I appreciate you having me on.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:31] Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. But before we get started, tell us a little bit about a WCI. How are you serving folks?

Mike Stark: [00:00:39] Yeah, absolutely. So our association’s been around since 1918. We represent wall and ceiling contractors, manufacturers and distributors all throughout the United States and outside the United States as well. And as a national trade association, we certainly provide networking opportunities and media opportunities through our magazine and other avenues. We have education programs, provide some technical expertize as far as codes and standards and the wall and ceiling space, and also have recently engaged more in the safety and health arena, particularly for wall and ceiling contractors.

Lee Kantor: [00:01:18] And how long have you been leading this association?

Mike Stark: [00:01:21] Yes, I joined WCI in September 2019, so approaching three years.

Lee Kantor: [00:01:28] So the timing is a little tricky, huh? The the you got there just in time for it to have a pandemic hit, so. Oh, that must have been fun.

Mike Stark: [00:01:41] Yeah, that was not the job description. But you’re correct. I started about about six months before the entire world shut down. And around March 2020 there and I came aboard. My predecessor retired and was here for about 24 years as CEO of this organization. So his timing was great. My timing was interesting. But here we are. We’re still standing.

Lee Kantor: [00:02:07] So now let’s dove into both of those things separately, because it’s one thing to replace somebody who maybe had a term of a few years, but somebody who’s been around for, you know, two decades that’s pretty entrenched in in a leadership position. And then to have to follow that, how was that something you were excited about or was that some apprehension about doing something like that?

Mike Stark: [00:02:33] Well, you know, it’s a little mix of both. I mean, as I came aboard, you know, it was a very stable, well-established organization. So that was that was good. You know, when I when I took on the role, you know, I wasn’t coming into a train wreck of a group. It was a very stable and, you know, just a solid organization. So that was certainly comforting to walk into that. That being said, you know, I did not want to come into the role and just keep the trains running on time, kind of keep the status quo for the next number of years. Wanted to assess things and take on new things. So, you know, what’s great is the leadership of the organization, board of directors, executive committee. You know, they had that vision as well. I’ll bring in our new CEO. So they gave me quite a bit of runway to to try some things and do some new things, but certainly wasn’t easy. And even to this day isn’t completely easy as far as, you know, trying to not change everything certainly don’t change for the sake of change, but have the ability to try some new things. And, you know, we had a very solid staff here, but a lot of staff who had been here a long time. So, of course, they’re getting used to a new guy. I’m getting used to them. And I obviously have some different approaches to things as my predecessor doesn’t make that better or worse, but just different. So, you know, all in all things have gone smoothly. But yeah, certainly some challenges here and there on just changing culture, changing process, changing approach.

Lee Kantor: [00:04:09] Now in some ways, did having gone through the pandemic make this transition a little bit smoother in the sense I know it was difficult for everybody, but just the fact that there’s this major global change so that we have to change like there’s no, you know, like this is non-negotiable. We have to adjust and make some changes. We can’t do things as we’ve done them for, you know, while we have a pandemic happening.

Mike Stark: [00:04:36] No, I think that’s that’s a good way to put it, where no one would wish, of course, a global pandemic for any of us. But, you know, I guess I was supported by the fact that, you know, WCI wasn’t just dealing with that. I wasn’t just dealing with that. Every organization, nonprofit for profit around the globe was dealing with the pandemic. So, you know, there wasn’t a playbook for us to follow. But, you know, we just figured it out along with other groups, certainly kept my eyes and ears open on what other other associations were doing, whether it’s meetings, remember communications, COVID protocols, that kind of thing. So, so that was good. And you know, I do joke with our members, you know, my honeymoon as the new guy was probably extended a bit, right? You know, that honeymoon can be short or it can be a year. Every position is different, but. You know, we were in some form of triage trying to navigate the ins and outs of of COVID. So I think in that way, it did make it a little easier that, hey, you know, Mike and his team and WCI are dealing with this thing as as our members are and probably didn’t have as much pressure in some other areas at that point. So yeah, we negotiate that well. And I just kept in mind that our members, they’re dealing with these things the same way we are. So we’re all kind of in the same boat.

Lee Kantor: [00:06:05] Now when the pandemic hit, obviously that impacted, I would imagine, how you did some in real life events and conferences and conventions and things like that. Have you come out of that? Have you kind of gone on and started, you know, getting back together and meeting in person again?

Mike Stark: [00:06:24] Absolutely. So, you know, the initial impacts were of course, I had a whole slate of travel, get to know the members, get to know the chapters plan for 2020. And that came to a screeching halt. So that that slowed down, I guess, a little bit, just my, you know, my ability to to put names with faces a little bit. But yeah, certainly getting back to that, you know, currently I’m on travel next week I’ll see several members in chapters out in Arizona, so that’ll be great. In March 2020, we had our national convention and trade show planned in March 2020, and if it had been two weeks earlier, we would have gotten it in under the wire. But it was not. So about a week or so before the event we had to cancel it. We were supposed to be in Las Vegas in mid-March of 2020, had to cancel that and no one wanted to have to do that. Of course, it was kind of a no brainer. The right decision. Las Vegas shut down a couple of days after we canceled, and fortunately, we did come out of that. Well, for my financial aspect, meetings and conferences, about 30% of our our revenue stream. So certainly consequential in that regard. But we did have a favorable insurance policy for events and infectious diseases at the time. So at the end of the day, we came out of that financially whole, which was great, obviously missed seeing people and we just literally had our convention and trade show in Dallas, right outside of Dallas a couple of weeks ago, and that was my first one. I’ve been on the job almost three years, but that was my first event because we canceled in 2020 and had to cancel again in 2021.

Lee Kantor: [00:08:19] Yeah. So that must have been exciting time though for you to go in the first time to see everybody in person. And there was probably a kind of a great enthusiasm to meet again altogether.

Mike Stark: [00:08:30] There really was you know, I keep using the line, you know, everyone was in a good mood walking in the door, you know, at our convention and expo a couple of weeks ago. Which which helps. Right. They weren’t a good mood coming in the door. I think we we put together an outstanding event and kept them in a good mood and kept them engaged. Our attendance was in the neighborhood of pre-COVID levels, which surprised me, frankly. Our trade show was sold out. We literally had no more space to sell it out at the Gaylord Texan outside of Dallas. So, you know, it was a win across the board and somebody were like, Oh, you’re the new guy. And I’m like, well, yes and no.

Lee Kantor: [00:09:11] Right? The three year old new guy.

Mike Stark: [00:09:13] Yeah, it’s my first convention, but I’m two and a half years ago.

Lee Kantor: [00:09:17] Yeah, that’s like a time warp happened.

Mike Stark: [00:09:20] Right.

Lee Kantor: [00:09:21] Now. Has it been difficult kind of continuing to push the value to the members when you are going from a you know, a lot of our value was these in person stuff and now we haven’t done that and now we’re getting back to that. Has the members kind of come along for this ride and are now hungry for that in person kind of interactions? Or you’re having to come up with creative ways to just keep enhancing the the membership value.

Mike Stark: [00:09:49] Yeah. So it’s, you know, my biggest concern frankly during all of COVID and even still, you know, certainly the financial implications of canceled events and things of that nature. But it was really are we going to lose the momentum? Are we going to lose the engagement of members say, hey, we haven’t met in person in two years, but, you know, no big deal. You know, my company is doing fine and, you know, is that necessary again? So I hope our recent convention was not an anomaly and really shows that people want to get back together. You know, I think our industry again, the construction industry contract. Manufacturers, suppliers, like a lot of industries, it’s a people business, you know, it really is. And all the Zoom meetings in the world and all the webinars we can crank out, they have their place. But I really don’t see it replacing that in-person contact. I really don’t, at least not for our industry. We’ve certainly done more webinars. Some of our committees that used to meet in person, we learned they can do it over Zoom and some of those things are, I guess, positives that came out of all this. But I think the in-person will continue to be important for for our members and our organization, but it doesn’t mean okay, great, we can just keep going how we were going. I think that member value proposition is something we always need to look at and, you know, want to use the past couple of years and the challenges we faced as that springboard to try some new things and make sure we are engaging the members and don’t just hang our hat on a convention in the spring and a fall conference in the fall as those touch points.

Lee Kantor: [00:11:46] So now that you’ve been about three years into this, is it you feel like kind of now you’ve got that balance of this is the way we used to be. This is where I kind of see us growing into. Are you kind of having that vision kind of come to life now?

Mike Stark: [00:12:05] Yeah, no, we definitely you know, some of the things we’ve talked about and of course, some of it was we were stopping and starting. Right. You know, it’s like, okay, we’re going to we’re going to mix up some things for the convention and and try this and that. And then and then we canceled, you know, and then a year goes by. So now we’ve got one of those under our belt. Under my belt, we saw some things that work, some things that that maybe weren’t a home run. And we can adjust moving forward. But it is good to see some of the conceptual things that the team and I hear are volunteer leadership had talked about come to fruition. You know, we’re seeing we’ve increased our marketing and gotten smarter about how we communicate with our members. We’re seeing higher attendance in webinars. So great, they’re not the best kept secret anymore. So that’s a nice metric to see. We’ve gotten good feedback from our our recent event. We have an event this coming fall. We’re going to try some new things and and see how that goes. But it is certainly nice to, you know, you have a lot of great conversations and your whiteboards and things. It it’s refreshing, I guess, to to see some of those things actually put into practice and then move forward and make them better next time.

Lee Kantor: [00:13:23] Now, having replaced somebody that was in the role for so long, does it is it is it hard to attract young people or younger people into the association? Is that something that’s important for the growth of the organization to keep kind of refreshing it and keeping it, you know, with a more kind of representative group of all of the people that are in the industry.

Mike Stark: [00:13:50] It is essential to this organization and it is front and center of almost everything we do. And, you know, it’s that balance, right? We don’t want somebody who’s been active in the organization. Maybe they’re a past president, maybe they’re not. But them in their company have been involved forever. We don’t want them to feel like there’s not a place for them anymore. That would be a disastrous misstep. But I think we can do both. We’re embracing those long term individuals and companies, but also having programing, paying proper attention to what we call the emerging leaders. And we created an emerging leaders group about two years ago. Probably should have done it even earlier. But be that as it may, created this group and for the first time at our recent convention, had programing specific to them and actually have set up, I’ll call it a class where we had people sign up and we made a commitment to them. They made a commitment to be part of our emerging leaders program and making it almost like a class. So you move forward over a year’s time and beyond with your class, basically as an emerging leader. And, you know, we want them to go on site visits. We want them to interact with experienced leaders to learn from as well. So, you know, I’ve had a lot of our members who have been stalwart saying, hey, you know, I’m within five years of retiring here. And that’s scary in one regard. But we want to make sure we don’t wake up one day and all of our most dedicated members are retired and we haven’t backfilled that with. A new crop of leaders in our industry and in our association. So it’s it’s critical to basically everything we’re doing right now.

Lee Kantor: [00:15:38] Yeah, I think that’s a really great and powerful statement you’re making to and I think that it serves all of the members, though, because you’re now having a place for this emerging leader to learn and grow. And then also there’s a place for that seasoned veteran that’s able to share their knowledge and have a legacy and seeing the impact of all their work being, you know, staying alive in the group. And you don’t have that brain drain like you were saying that, you know, all this history and legacy leaves and then there’s people don’t know kind of where they were and what has already what mistakes have already been made, you know?

Mike Stark: [00:16:15] No, that’s right. No, I think it’s that kind of, you know, we don’t have a, quote, formal mentor program. But I think, you know, emerging leaders, you know, those kind of under 40, although we don’t we don’t put a we don’t put an age on our program at all. But, you know, to hear from others outside of their their region or their market or within their company to hear from others on some pitfalls and some successes maybe that individuals made in their career within their business as well. And yeah, just trying to, you know, and some of this is self preservation for the association as well, right. You know, it’s not only the industry, but we want to make, you know, start to identify the next committee chair who maybe becomes the next officer, becomes the next president as well. And just one thing I would like to mention, you know, we’re we’re just starting to kick around an idea and it’s just really conceptual at this point of, you know, those individuals who, you know, they’re still in the industry. They may be close to retiring. Maybe they’re a past president of the group, maybe they’re not. But, you know, and even once they retire from their company, but they still want to be involved on some level, they still want to contribute. We’re kicking around. Hey, can we have a group of some sort that is there as an advisor, you know, an advisory capacity, a guidance capacity or mentor capacity? You know, maybe they’re retired, but they still have knowledge and experiences to share. Can we have a home for those individuals? So we’re kicking around that idea a little bit as well.

Lee Kantor: [00:17:51] Yeah, I think it’s great to get all the generations involved. Like why would you kind of not be open to having a place for them? I mean, they they’ve learned so much that were part of it for so long. Why would you not want their just their opinions or thoughts about things like it’s I think people want to be heard. And especially as your career is winding down, you want to know that, hey, I left a mark. There is ripples from the work that I’m doing and I have things to share and I can, you know, maybe help somebody else not go through some of the stuff that I had to go through. I think everybody wins in that sense.

Mike Stark: [00:18:27] Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: [00:18:29] So it’s exciting times for you. Is there any advice you would give? Let’s talk about somebody. If you’re replacing somebody that has been around for as long as your predecessor had, is there any advice like dos or don’ts that you can say, you know what, I wish I would have done this or I you know, this went really well, is there are some ways to do that kind of a handoff in a way that you think you can help somebody else down the road?

Mike Stark: [00:18:54] Sure. Yeah. You know, I came in and, you know, this was my first I’ve been in the association space and particularly the Construction Trade Association space on a national level for 22 years now. But this was my first CEO opportunity. So, you know, like a lot of jobs, you don’t know what you don’t know. I knew I was qualified for it and prepared for it. But until you actually sit in the chair, so to speak, you know, there’s some on the job training there. So I really went out of my way with our staff and we’ve got about 11, 11 staff here too, just to listen, you know, to be a collaborative leader. And, you know, easier said than done. But, you know, no one needs to be reminded that the CEO has a final decision making authority that kind of goes unsaid. So, you know, everyone knows that you don’t really need to remind your staff of that. But I wanted to hear from these individuals. You know, they they have experiences and expertize that I don’t have in their particular areas. They have been with the organization for longer than I had. I just walked in the door. So I want to hear from them. And I wanted them. And I said this time and time again to be clear that their voices were valuable, whether they had been here 30 years or three months, whether they were a coordinator or a senior director, I didn’t really care what what their title was.

Mike Stark: [00:20:17] You know, all voices were important and that I wanted to hear from them on what’s good, what’s bad, what works, what doesn’t work. And an ideas they have. You know I always like. The quote, if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the you’re in the wrong room. And so I really just tried to listen. I think that was received very well from the team. And that’s a continuous approach, right? That’s not just me as the new guy trying to get on the good side of the team. That’s that’s something I try to do every day. So there’s that as well. And, you know, with our members just trying to hear from them, you know, I’ve got 20 plus years experience in the Construction Association space, yet I’m not a contractor, I’m not in the field again. I don’t know what I don’t know in that regard. So just trying to hear from the membership on some new approaches and all of that and and also to share my experiences and try some new things. So I just didn’t want to come in and kind of the new sheriff in town approach. And we’re doing this, we’re doing that, we’re doing this and not do the listening part. So I think that’s was essential to some success that the organization is seeing.

Lee Kantor: [00:21:33] So have you been able to kind of see some maybe some of the sprouts of your efforts that things are now kind of bubbling up and you’re seeing, hey, this is this really has a chance to be successful or we’re here or this is something that I think is starting to get traction.

Mike Stark: [00:21:53] Yeah. No. And, you know, we’ve made a lot of changes here. Some some small some were just, you know, the organization when I came in, again, very solid and stable, as I mentioned. But, you know, there were some things that, in my opinion, were were kind of dated and some of this was low hanging fruit stuff. You know, some of it was larger on on things. But our leadership wanted a fresh approach. They wanted a new set of eyes. And and I really stress to my team here for them to be part of that. And I still stress to them, you know, if all the new ideas, the questions, the analysis is coming from my office, that something’s fundamentally wrong. It shouldn’t just be from me or from my position simply because of my title. So but to your question, we have seen some new things. I mentioned the emerging leaders growth there. That is now happening after conceptual talks for a year and a half and COVID pumping the brakes on that a little bit. We hired a director of safety, health and risk management. You know, that was a void that I saw and some of our leaders saw in this organization. You know, everyone says safety and health is their number one thing and they should say that. But as a national trade association, we weren’t talking about that issue, you know, and if we’re not talking about it as a representative of the industry, why not? It’s so essential and impacts every single one of our members. So we now have somebody who’s dedicated to that role and are doing a lot more there. So yeah, we’re seeing some new things and again seeing things actually happening, which is great to see. And you know, the key I think for any of us and any business, any association is just not to get complacent. You know, you do an annual report each year and, you know, you’re you pound your own drum there a little bit and you should and highlight your successes. But we don’t get complacent and, you know, try to push the envelope and we’ll continue to do that.

Lee Kantor: [00:24:02] So what do you need more of? How can we help?

Mike Stark: [00:24:05] Yeah, so, you know, it’s it’s really just, you know, in this role and I think it was smart where I tried to make sure I didn’t get over my skis or my ego got in the way of. You know, listening to other associations, listening to other CEOs, listening to other groups and proactively reaching out. And we’ve done that in various places to hear what they’ve done, to learn their lessons learned on the good and the bad. You know, so it’s really just, you know, whether it’s it’s broadcast like this or resources through ACA or just any other avenue for particularly leaders in the nonprofit sector, because we are unique as associations in a lot of ways, but just as many resources that are out there on what’s the future of trade shows, what do association CEOs need to learn how to best supervise and manage people? Which is always a challenge at times for those and usually an area where none of us have had really formal training. So I think we’ve been smart about proactively reaching out to other groups. Hey, you know, what are you doing with webinars? We hired somebody to do a communications audit of our organization, so a third party could really, you know, we’re all too close to it. A third party could really analyze what we’re doing well and what could be improved. So, yeah, just really the availability of those resources to anyone up and down the staff list for an association are really invaluable because we’re all facing very similar things.

Lee Kantor: [00:25:51] Well, if somebody wants to learn more about your work, what’s the website?

Mike Stark: [00:25:56] Yeah. So our organization WCI dot org is an organization website and we’ve got about 2400 members around the country, 16 chapters, 15 in the United States, one in Canada. And, you know, we filter things through our website like everyone else does. We’re doing a lot more on social media between Twitter, certainly, and LinkedIn and Facebook. We’ve hired somebody to to really hone that in for our organization. So a lot more on that as well. And yeah, we’re certainly in growth mode and I think our members are as well. And it’s been helpful for us as an organization that even during the the heart of COVID construction was largely deemed essential as it should be even even in the middle of COVID. So that’s been helpful for our members and our association as well. But yeah, doing a lot of great things and looking to hear what other groups are doing as well.

Lee Kantor: [00:26:59] Well, congratulations on all the success. You’re doing important work and we appreciate you.

Mike Stark: [00:27:04] Thank you, Lee. No, I appreciate being a part of this and in all the work that you do highlighting the association industry. Thank you very much.

Lee Kantor: [00:27:12] All right. This is Lee Kantor SEO next time on the Association Leadership Radio.