In this episode of Atlanta Business Radio, Lee Kantor interviews Murray Dabby and Lesly Fredman with Curtain Up, Anxiety Down, an improv-based program designed to help people with social anxiety. They explain how structured improv exercises—combined with reflection and therapeutic support—help participants reduce fear, build confidence, and improve real-world social skills. Their 12-week classes focus on movement, play, and collaboration rather than performance or comedy, creating a safe space for gradual growth. Participants range from college students to professionals, often entering with significant anxiety and leaving with improved confidence, stronger self-expression, and deeper social connection. Real-life breakthroughs include overcoming fear of public speaking, dancing at major events, and engaging more comfortably in social situations.
Lesly Fredman is a Creativity Coach, Managing and Artistic Director of Theatre on the Prowl, with over 30 years experience teaching improvisation, performing, and directing numerous theatrical productions; and a Certified Laughter Yoga Leader.
She is the co-creator/leader, with Imago therapist Jesse Bathrick, of playshops for couples (“Play Date Nights”) and women in transition (“Navigating the Space In Between” and “Off and On the Map”); and with poet Alice Teeter, of Improvoetry Workshops, a blend of poetry and improvisation to enliven the creative process. She has led church retreats (“Play as Spiritual Practice”) and improv classes for men in recovery from alcohol and drug addiction and adults suffering from social anxiety.
She has a B.A. in Humanities with an emphasis in Theatre from Florida Presbyterian College and a year of graduate work at the University of Oregon in Eugene, OR. She has received training from Coaches Training Institute, one of the premier life coach training organizations in the world; and is a member of the Creativity Coaching Association and the Artist Conference Network, a nationwide coaching community of artists.
Murray Dabby LCSW is a psychotherapist, group therapist, relationship coach, teacher and trainer with over 30 years of experience. He practices and trains people in the non-diagnostic performance based Social Therapy. He is director of the Atlanta Center for Social Therapy where he sees groups, individuals, couples and families in his therapeutic practice.
With a background in working with chronic mentally ill, family therapy, diagnostic research, community activism and community social work, he was one of the founders of the East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy, an international training program where the social therapeutic method is taught, practiced and developed. He continues on the affiliate faculty there.
He co-developed The Couples College training for couples on relationship building in a group context. He has a history in the performing arts: as a musician, community theatre director, and using performance and improvisation in his teaching methods. He has trained professionals and non-professionals alike, nationally and abroad, in workshops with professionals in business, therapeutic settings, and in working with refugees of war in the former Yugoslavia.
He also runs a youth non-profit the Atlanta All Stars Talent Show Network, and is an Adjunct Professor at Clark Atlanta University.
Follow Curtain Up, Anxiety Down on Facebook.
What You’ll Learn In This Episode
- Role of structured play in reducing fear of social interaction and judgment
- Core improv principles (“yes, and,” collaboration, listening) applied to real-life communication
- Step-by-step structure of the 12-week program (movement, games, role-play, reflection)
- Importance of movement and embodiment in overcoming social anxiety
- Reframing mistakes and failure as part of learning and growth
- Real-world application of improv skills in situations like networking, parties, and public speaking
- Use of role-play to safely rehearse personal fears and challenges
- Long-term impact of improv practice on confidence, self-expression, and social connection
- Value of reflection and group feedback in reinforcing personal growth
- Overall philosophy of using creativity and play for emotional resilience and wellbeing
This transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.
TRANSCRIPT
Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studio in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Atlanta Business Radio, brought to you by Kennesaw State University’s Executive MBA program, the Accelerated Degree program for working professionals looking to advance their career and enhance their leadership skills. And now, here’s your host.
Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here, another episode of Atlanta Business Radio. And this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, CSU’s executive MBA program. Without them, we wouldn’t be sharing these important stories. Today on the show, we have, uh, Murray Darby and Leslie Friedman with Curtain Up, Anxiety Down. Welcome.
Murray Dabby: Thank you very much. Yeah.
Lee Kantor: Well, before we get too far into things, tell us about Curtain Anxiety Down. How do you serve folks?
Murray Dabby: Okay, Leslie, would you like to start?
Lesly Fredman: Sure. Curtain up. Anxiety down is an improv class for people with social anxiety. And so what we do is play. We have improv. And then we also have, uh, time for processing. So it’s both improv and also the therapy that that goes along with that.
Lee Kantor: So do people with social anxiety think, oh, well, the, the next move I should make is take an improv class.
Murray Dabby: It’s usually the last thing that they think about. And, uh, and it’s amazing to us that people with social anxiety actually call us and show up at the door and stay with us the entire time. Because you know, what they tell us right away is how scared they are of doing it. And, um, you know, and, and we have like a lot of people that, that come in people who have very severe social anxiety sometimes, you know, from trauma or they may be students, new students at college, and they couldn’t hack the, the social aspect of it. And then we have professionals that come in who want to, they get anxious speaking in groups, in boardrooms, in lawyers that have to speak in court, and they want to just improve their ability to be able to just talk to others or network with others. Yeah.
Lee Kantor: So what was the genesis of the idea to use improv in this kind of therapeutic manner? I’ve seen improv used in business, like for sales help or, uh, to help in communications, but never in a therapeutic manner like this.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lesly Fredman: Well, you know, improv really is not necessarily about comedy. I mean, improv is really, for me, I think all the time that I’ve been teaching improv is about relationships. In scenes, you have relationships and people are able to create characters. They’re able to step outside of themselves and try different ways of being on. And so improv in that way can be really, really helpful for people, um, who are, who are just, uh, have a hard time expressing themselves. And we always say, put your feelings and emotions into a character and play with them and try that on.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. And, and to, to the, to your question a little bit also is that, um, Leslie and I met at a workshop, uh, that I was leading and she approached me to talk about, oh, you know, there’s, um, can we work together and, and presented the idea of working with people who have social anxiety. Both of us, Leslie, much more so than me, has been doing improv for a very long time and is a real pro at it, and I’ve used it therapeutically and as well in workshops through the years. And it’s also something that I did that helped me personally, uh, because I was a professional who was giving talks and I was not doing well at it. And so, you know, doing improv helped me to kind of relax and, uh, and, and, uh, also speak more impromptu. Uh, so we both had some history with it. Uh, I.
Lesly Fredman: I had, um, started, uh, working with people with social anxiety, but really, uh, had been contacted by someone in who worked with second city and he was, uh, worked in conjunction with them so that people took improv with Second City and then came to him. He was, uh, had a group called Panic and Recovery Center. And so that whole idea of working with a therapist, if I was going to work with people with social anxiety, uh, was just seemed like that’s the fit. That’s what would, would really work. Mhm. Um, and so yeah, that, that’s how that was, that came into being. And, and I’ve also found that improv all the years I’ve taught it has been really helpful for people. I feel people, you know, going out into their real lives, you know, have said that improv, uh, makes them, uh, look at, look at other, other people as partners in conversations. That’s one of the rules of improv is to make your partner look good to, to work with your partner. And I found it just to be that people become more generous in spirit. So I found that improv is a wonderful play to play. Playing is essential and also it really helps us learn life lessons.
Murray Dabby: Mhm. Yeah.
Lee Kantor: Now, in the environment that you, um, work with people, is this specifically in a therapeutic manner or like, is this part of a theater? Because there’s improv classes that a lot of the theaters, is this a kind of a separate area where you use improv techniques and games, maybe in this kind of more serious therapeutic setting?
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Murray Dabby: You know, commonly if you go straight to an improv class or improv, you know, some of what people have shared with us is, you know, and I found this to it can feel competitive, it can feel hard. We use improv, but we do use it therapeutically in the sense that we go slow, we go Thoughtfully, we think about what it is, who’s in our class, what they need, how we structure the exercises so that people can succeed at them, but also be challenged at the same time by them. And also, we spend much more time than in a typical improv class talking about the experience, uh, looking at what it means to them, what’s challenging, how to apply it in their lives so that we, you know, we’re, we’re giving people and helping people to learn tools. As Leslie was talking about using improv in everyday life, um, how to, how to go to a party, for example, where you don’t know anybody and you could personally assign yourself a role. Oh, I could be a co-host instead of feeling like you’re nervous and you don’t know anybody, you could just introduce yourself to people as they walk into the party and say, oh, hi, the drinks are over there and the food’s over there. And what brings you here? You know, so so people could find ways of utilizing the characters, as Leslie talked about, um, in, in, in their lives.
Lesly Fredman: And, and as we said before, improv is not just about comedy. And that’s one thing we do let people know right off the bat. You don’t try to be funny, don’t force it, because that’s what scares people a lot is, oh, I have to be funny. I have to be witty, I have to be. I have to come out with these things to say that, you know, and a lot of improv can be competitive. And that’s not what we’re about. We really are about, you know, how the imagination and play and relating and is using that as, as a way to, um, really move, move away from some of that fear of being with other people.
Murray Dabby: And finding.
Lesly Fredman: Ways to connect to them.
Murray Dabby: Mhm.
Lee Kantor: Now is the is the class like how many people are in a, in a class?
Murray Dabby: Uh, right now we have a class of 12 people. And, uh, and, you know, it can range from, you know, six, seven, 8 to 12 people, depending. We’ve been doing this for about 14 years now. Usually two classes a year. Uh, and by the way, right now, I don’t know if you know this, but the class is the subject of a documentary. So it’s being filmed by professional filmmakers who have, uh, who are, who are going to kind of present this in a, in a full length documentary.
Lee Kantor: And is it go by age? Is this adult only or do you have some with younger folks?
Murray Dabby: It’s with adults, uh, ages. You know, usually college age, uh, so it could be as young as 19 to people in their 70s we’ve had. And, um, uh, I.
Lesly Fredman: I just want to jump in. It’s, it’s so that’s one of the things about the class that is so appealing is that it really is a mix of people of. And that, and that’s helpful in itself.
Murray Dabby: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lesly Fredman: Speaking from a different perspectives, you know, that, that, that we like a lot.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Now, and we’ve.
Murray Dabby: Done, we’ve done a, a, some groups with teens. Um, I’ve mainly done it because the teens were kind of, they were sort of small groups and, and I did, and I have a history of working with teens because I used to run a, um, a performance program, a kind of a inner city performance program that, uh, that worked with young people. And I did a lot of work using improv with, with kids and their families all doing it together. So yeah, so we do we have that history.
Lee Kantor: So if somebody went to a class, what can they expect? Like, can you walk us through what a class is an hour? Is it two hours? Like what’s a class? What happens in a class?
Murray Dabby: Uh, well.
Murray Dabby: It’s two hours, 12, 12 for 12 weeks, two hours a week, um, in the evening. And I don’t know les. Well, I could just start and you could say the rest, but, you know, we usually start slow. The first class is, is, uh, getting to know you introductions, teaching the rules of improv, uh, helping people with the fear of failure. We help people to enjoy failure. Um, you know, by, you know, somebody could scream out, uh, I failed, I failed, and everybody applause. Um, you know, and it’s mostly nonverbal or, you know, movement. Leslie’s a movement wonder an expert. And so she, she gets people to kind of move around and be comfortable in their bodies.
Lesly Fredman: Yeah, movement is so important because when you do have anxiety, you know, it often just means that you are not comfortable in your body and you don’t want to be looked at. And so movement really is a challenge. But it’s so important because I always think, you know, if you move, then things shift. And I always like to think that any kind of movement is really a dance, but it’s not performing. So it’s, it’s just being locating yourself in your body, locating yourself in the room and locating yourself in this room with other people and being comfortable with, with moving with them.
Murray Dabby: And I want to say to add to that, I mean, there’s more to say about the class, but we had a, we were doing a class. We’re kind of in the tail end of it. We’re having the last class next week. And we started with people that were so uncomfortable moving. I mean, they were barely budging when we first started, and now they’re just dancing and teaching dancing. Uh, so it, it, it is like, it’s really wild. You know, the advance that people made in just the 11 weeks.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Now, so.
Lesly Fredman: We do, we do, we start with movement always and then go in to do some exercises, theater exercises, games.
Murray Dabby: We have people.
Murray Dabby: Talking in gibberish to each other. And then, uh, to kind of get comfortable just making sounds and then it moves to gibberish and the translator of gibberish, you know, little skits. And then we, you know, we, we then advance those skits and performances. Um, you know, as we, as the weeks go on.
Lee Kantor: And how, how does it culminate? Is there something at the end?
Lesly Fredman: You mean at the final?
Lee Kantor: Right in the final class.
Lesly Fredman: Um, we don’t do any. No, there’s no recital or performance that we do, but we end every, every last class really is a very, um, one that we find very moving. Um, because we, everyone gets a chance to hear from everyone else the impact they had in the class.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lesly Fredman: It’s, that’s what we do that we, we spend most of that last class appreciating.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Which is, which is.
Murray Dabby: Really powerful for people who live with social anxiety because they live there. Oftentimes people live their lives trying to be invisible or feeling invisible or not being seen. And to know that what you did was made a huge contribution to the class is, is so powerful. And people leave, you know, and people have really built, you know, connections with one another. Um, but also in our last class before this final one, this is to me also a great culmination, um, people present to us what they’re most uncomfortable skit might be or scene might be for them and one that they desire. And then Leslie and I develop, um, like a scenario that the whole class or participates in, uh, that creates some version of that scene, you know, in a fantasy like thing or in a, you know, and, uh, and so people get to do, um, really, you know, kind of amazing performances collectively as a class. And those are, those are a lot of fun.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lee Kantor: So they get to kind of work out and, you know, do a, uh, a, not a pretend, uh, way to address maybe a fear. Like if they said, I’m a nervous about my review with my boss, you can create a scenario that gives them a safe place to kind of practice.
Murray Dabby: Exactly, exactly, exactly. You know, an example in the class, there’s one woman that came to the class and she was afraid of singing in public. She used to sing when she was a kid and then went through a lot of trauma, um, and stopped singing. And she has a beautiful voice, but she’s tried to go to auditions and she always freezes. And so, frankly, by the middle of the class, she started singing. But then the final performance was reliving that fearful moment as a child, but then going into an audition and really killing it.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lesly Fredman: So we give them the chance. Yes. To do the uncomfortable one or the, you know, and then followed by this scene where they do get to Enjoy something that they want.
Murray Dabby: Mhm.
Lesly Fredman: You know, and you know, and sometimes it’s interesting. Sometimes even the most comfortable scenes might still be a little comfortable, uncomfortable. But but people, you know, the, the beauty of that still is that people can acknowledge that. And it’s, there’s no, you know, it’s not embarrassing to say that. It’s just, you know, realizing that, oh, I still, I’m still not, you know, really comfortable with.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lesly Fredman: I’m thinking and.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lesly Fredman: And that, you know, I mean, and that’s not unusual at all.
Murray Dabby: Right. Yes.
Lesly Fredman: People have, as Murray said, I mean, what we do notice is by the end of the class series, people have made progress for themselves in ways that are very significant.
Murray Dabby: Mhm.
Lee Kantor: Is there a story you can share that maybe illustrates that maybe don’t obviously don’t name the person, but maybe share what they came in with and how they were able to get over it, or maybe exceed their expectations or maybe surprised you.
Murray Dabby: Mm.
Lesly Fredman: Murray, what about this one I love about, um, who came in was going to his brother’s wedding.
Murray Dabby: Oh yes. Oh yes, I.
Murray Dabby: Know, I know, yeah, yeah. This is a, you know, this is a guy who is very techie. Uh, he’s basically lives his life in front of a computer, um, very nonsocial, uh, you know, very much to himself. He had significant body dis, you know, uh, he called body dysmorphia. He’s very uncomfortable in his own skin, his own body. He was, he was, you know, significantly overweight, that kind of thing. And he, uh, Indian. So he was going to his family’s, his brother’s wedding, which was a, you know, a, you know, you go to an Indian wedding, you’re dancing for four days. And he was so freaked out about having to go to this wedding, and he wanted to dance at his brother’s wedding, and he did not know how to move. And so we worked with him and with the class on moving together and being comfortable with moving and moving your arms up and down, moving your legs up and down, you know, moving your body, leading with your belly, you know, like in a way, the things that you might be more like, I tend to have discomfort about my belly. And, you know, Leslie will say, well, lead with your belly and like, walk through the room with your belly in front of you as opposed to, you know, trying to hide it, which is what we might often do if we’re just uncomfortable. And by the sixth or seventh class, I remember it was the it was his brother’s wedding happened and he danced to the entire thing. And he, he just was so good. Um, and he just had no idea. I mean, that this was possible.
Lesly Fredman: And in fact, it was really funny. We’ve sometimes said, you know, what’s what was your favorite part of the class or what was the most helpful or significant? Significant. And he said, well, he, he said, I really hated you, Leslie, because.
Murray Dabby: You.
Lesly Fredman: Move so much. And yet, I mean, that really was the thing for him. That was so, uh, it was so wonderful to hear that he was able to go to this event and, and have and enjoy it.
Murray Dabby: Not.
Lesly Fredman: Do it, but enjoy it.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Yeah.
Murray Dabby: Uh, you know, another quick example is there’s, you know, there was a woman in one of our classes and you remember this Leslie who, uh, who was, was very, very self-controlled and anxious and wanted to have the experience of being fearless and being an adventurer. And one of our last skits is we created a skit where she was a pirate, uh, leading a troop, and she had to have the, you know, the gumption of a pirate. And she just, like, was running the thing and controlling everybody and being completely fearless. And then Leslie in the class was who was one of the, you know, her, the, uh, the, the crew members, you know, spoke up, uh, against her a little bit, almost like mutinous. And she pulled out a pistol and shot her shot.
Murray Dabby: And, and.
Murray Dabby: She, and she said that that experience of being able to be fearless that way, just like was so moving for her and freed her up because she doesn’t have that experience in her life. She spends, you know, a lot of it being very careful and very cautious.
Murray Dabby: So she really.
Lesly Fredman: Yeah. And she really loves the idea of playing and wants to be more playful. I mean, that was something she said a lot. Yeah. And so and, and her desire, I loved it. It was to be, to be the Tasmanian devil, you know, to be wild and fearless. And so we created this scene and it was, it was quite wonderful until I was shot.
Lee Kantor: But now is the when a person goes through that and has that aha moment or the light bulb goes on, is it something that is. Now they’ve unlocked this and now they’re going to be better over time? Or is this something that they got to continue to just like this is.
Murray Dabby: You know.
Murray Dabby: Yeah, you’re always like, it’s a kind of thing like exercise. You’re always having to exercise that ability. Uh, but when you do something as dramatic as that, and I had that in my own past, I, you know, I had, you know, a very dramatic kind of improv, uh, moment as well. Um, it impacts you. It’s like, it’s, it’s like deciding to sky jump, you know, skydive or bungee jump. And you’ve never done that before and you couldn’t imagine doing it. And then you realize, oh, I have a capability or going to a foreign country by yourself. Um, you know, which was important to me when I was younger. Just those kinds of actions do stay with you, but you do have to continue, uh, and find ways of continuing it in your life, right?
Lesly Fredman: I mean, you know, this is the class isn’t a cure for social anxiety. I mean, it’s, but what it is, it’s, it provides a whole different perspective on how you can be in the world. I mean, I, I am such a proponent of playing and the whole idea of play is so essential to us as adults. We sometimes just think plays just childish. But playing is just a very is very profound, and to be in touch with that creative spark, to have access to that and to see your life as you know that that it includes this kind, these kinds of moments and that this can be an outlook you have. It’s, um, I think it just really can, um, it just means a lot for people to be able to have that.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Yeah.
Murray Dabby: And, and there’s more and more people adopting that and talking about it. Leslie and I are part of different groups that like believe in. And you could see if you, you know, kind of Google it, there’s a lot more articles on, on play and the value of play and, and performance in different kinds of places. You know, Leslie, part of the global play brigade, which happened during the pandemic, uh, where we did play around the world with people even even in Wuhan, China. Uh, we, you know, uh, where people were locked down and being online together, uh, in little boxes with, with tens of, you know, to hundreds of people all in boxes just playing together and being connected that way.
Lee Kantor: Now, is there anything that our listener can do right now? Are there any activities or games that they can play to or bring play into their world or family or their coworkers?
Murray Dabby: Mhm.
Lesly Fredman: Well, you know, uh, um, for me, I mean, I always think about, uh, characters, you know, I mean, to, to find some kind of character that is inside you something, you know, sometimes it’s just a feeling you have and, and bring that out and then and share it with somebody, you know, find a playmate is what I say, you know, I mean, that, that it really is, uh, something that, um, you can do it any time and think about, I will just say the rules of improv, which is funny to talk about the rules in improv, but it is about being a partner to somebody in a scene and that you’re saying, yes. And, and that means that you’re really opening yourself up to hearing other people and listening to other people. And I, that’s sometimes I think that gets in the way is people are not able to hear each other or listen because they’re so anxious. So they don’t they can’t connect in ways. So for me, I, you know, it’s, it’s all about finding relationship fun.
Murray Dabby: Mhm. Yeah, yeah.
Murray Dabby: And, and to add that, I mean, you know, there are simple things that are kind of ordinary in life, but you don’t even think about it as much. Dancing, I think is amazing, you know, but dancing can be done in different ways. There are people that dance with partners and you have like organized dancing, but dancing in groups where you’re freeform and playing with one another and being goofy and imitating each other and being on the floor and imitating each different person that’s around you. Uh, it can be a way, a simple way of playing that brings a lot of joy and, you know, gets the dopamine hits going. You feel really good doing something like that.
Lesly Fredman: And finding, finding ways to, to, to laugh. You know, it’s not about, as we say, just comedy, but laughter is such a is so liberating as well. Singing in the shower. I mean, singing in the shower is another thing that it can be so playful and liberating just belting it out.
Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more about curtain up, anxiety down, where should they go? Is there a website? Is there socials?
Murray Dabby: Yes, there’s a website called Curtain Up Enough anxiety down.com. And they could certainly. So that’s one place where they could find out more about it. Uh, it’s also on my site, Atlanta Center for Social therapy.com. And Leslie, your site.
Murray Dabby: Is my.
Lesly Fredman: My website, Leslie friedman.com. We talked about it.
Murray Dabby: Yeah. Yeah.
Murray Dabby: And they can also call both of us, you know, or email. Mine is Murray at Atlanta, social therapy.com and Leslie’s Leslie friedman@gmail.com.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lee Kantor: Well, Murray and Leslie, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.
Murray Dabby: Oh, thank you so much. And thanks for the opportunity.
Murray Dabby: Yeah.
Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Atlanta Business Radio.
