Stephanie Judd With Wolf And Heron

Intro: [00:00:04] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Atlanta Business Radio. Brought to you by on pay. Atlanta’s New standard in payroll. Now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:25] Lee Kantor here another episode of Atlanta Business Radio, and this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, Onpay. Without them, we couldn’t be sharing these important stories. Today on Atlanta Business Radio, we have Stephanie Judd with Wolf and Heron. Welcome.

Stephanie Judd: [00:00:43] Thank you. Happy to be here.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:45] Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your firm, how you serving folks.

Stephanie Judd: [00:00:50] We are a professional development firm that helps leaders engage in inspire others through the art and science of storytelling.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:58] So what’s your backstory? How’d you get into this line of work?

Stephanie Judd: [00:01:01] Believe it or not, it was very circuitous and all over the place. But fundamentally, what got me interested in storytelling was my work in professional organizational change management. Because when I was consulting as a change management consultant, a lot of the work that we were doing was fundamentally crafting stories and then and then telling them in ways that were inspiring and engaging for the organization to to rally behind. And that art was just so fascinating to me because there’s social science and individual psychology and inspiring leadership and all kinds of complex, you know, group dynamics that are happening and stories create culture. And it is through that that we were able to really engage and inspire other folks. And so when I and my partner launched Wolf and Heron, we were we were really thinking about the way the power of what stories can do and how it can really change hearts and minds. And and we wanted to to bring that to the world.

Lee Kantor: [00:02:04] Now, when you had that kind of hypothesis that storytelling is the way to go, and I’m sure you had facts and figures to back that up, how difficult was it to get maybe some of the numbers, people to get behind something that maybe isn’t as tangible or as kind of numerically define ed as they tend to prefer? Because that to me would be not the easiest thing to do for some folks. Some folks may not kind of understand these softer skills of being able to articulate a message through story rather than a spreadsheet or a pie chart.

Stephanie Judd: [00:02:43] Yeah. And fundamentally, what you’re what you’re asking me is what were the stories that we told? Because it is through storytelling mostly that we sell storytelling, believe it or not. It’s you’re right, it’s hard to put into numbers what the power of storytelling really is. I can point to the brain science and the way that, you know, different parts of the brain light up when stories are told versus when information is presented in a pie chart. But fundamentally, it’s really people are like, Yeah, but we’re businesses. We make decisions based on the numbers and the information. And and the truth of the matter is that our brains actually make decisions long before the logic part of our head has actually come to the conclusion we make decisions and rationalize them after the fact, not beforehand. And so, so much of what we look at when we’re looking at how to communicate is really how to activate the emotional side of of the decision making brain and also the the the the emotional interest in whatever it is that we’re trying to drive. Um, and then and then we have these skills that we teach in our storytelling that are really just about how do you make your story speak to the emotional brain centers, the inspired parts of us as human beings that really create connection, build, relationship, establish trust. And all of those things are hard to measure. But at the end of the day, we all kind of understand that that is important. And we know that, you know, charisma and gravitas make a difference. And so we so we tend to to see how storytelling then becomes relevant.

Lee Kantor: [00:04:32] Now, when you first approached somebody to pitch them this concept, um, what was that first conversation like? I’m sure you leaned on storytelling to kind of communicate your value proposition, but again, I’m just having a difficult time on. I mean, I’m a big believer, so don’t get me wrong, I’m with you 100%. I believe in the power of storytelling. I believe in the emotional and visceral components of storytelling and how that information sticks with somebody. And I believe that it’s extremely difficult to measure. And and I and I also believe that people rationalize decisions with numerical things after they’ve emotionally purchased or bought whatever it is you’re selling. So believe me, I’m. On your side. I’m just having. I know I’ve had these conversations with people and it’s always been a challenge for me to communicate the value of some of these softer things, despite no matter how compelling the story might might be. So if you can share some tips and tricks on how to best communicate through storytelling on when you’re dealing with that person that is so kind of math or numerically, you know, they prioritize that or justify that in order to sell in whatever you’re trying to sell to their boss, you know?

Stephanie Judd: [00:06:01] Yeah. So I was recently presenting to a group of product managers. Product managers are very, you know, data driven folks. They have to make data driven decisions all the time. And, and I was presenting on the power of storytelling and what and why they should include storytelling in their presentations. And one of the things that I find to be very, very effective is to give them a before and after, You know. And I actually used in this particular presentation, I used an example of a product manager who was trying to communicate the value of her, um, her virtual product, virtual meeting product, basically. And, and she had a slide and it had like the three main bullet points as to why it was better than the competitors And her before, if you will, was really just a walk through of the bullet points. Well it has, you know audio management control and it has this quick thing that does X, Y, Z, and it’s, you know, it has light adjustment so that you look you look good on your camera. Right? And it’s like these are the things that make it better. But fundamentally, it’s a very cerebral argument. And the audience could understand that because that’s what they that’s what they do. They make cerebral arguments. But then, you know, I worked with this particular person and coached her into a story and she turned her answer to this question What makes your product different or better than its competitors? She turned her answer into a story, and the story was personal anecdote about how she had to use her product and a competitor’s product in the same day, preparing for meetings that were roughly similar to each other.

Stephanie Judd: [00:07:47] But one experience was super low key, low stress, really, really easy, smooth. And the other experience was extremely high stress and very chaotic. And she had to manage 17 different work streams in her head at the same time. And it was through this storytelling that she was much more effectively capable of communicating the power of the simplicity and the and the the ease of use that her product offered that the competitor product didn’t. And it’s, you know, it’s like the emotional component of that experience is what is what what convinces people of the to the of the difference between these two products and the value add that her particular product had. And so it’s like by showing it’s almost like yeah by showing instead of telling the audience will will come on board, I think more often than, than, you know, I can’t I’m not going to give you a spreadsheet, but I’ll tell you a story or I’ll give you an example of a story or, you know, have videos of people telling stories and that that tends to be the most compelling.

Lee Kantor: [00:08:56] Now when you’re trying to like, okay, I’m all in, I believe you. That makes perfect sense. Like, and I’m assuming the way that you help people are you first get all their data, their information that they’re typically sharing and then you’re like, okay, let’s let’s get some real life stories or examples about this and let’s craft and reframe some of what you’re doing in terms of that arc of a story, you know, the challenges and then us overcoming us, overcoming them and then, you know, our our customer being the hero because they solve this this challenge through story. And when you’re doing that and you’re working with people, how do they then take that concept, that storytelling concept and then scale it to a variety of people with a variety of different, you know, abilities and skills and natural tendencies When it comes to articulating something that is, again, a softer skill of storytelling as opposed to, you know, they might be more comfortable with the numbers and with the kind of data rather than leaning into that personal where to tell a story correctly or not, maybe not correctly, it’s too harsh of a word, but to tell a story in a compelling way, you have to be kind of vulnerable, right? You have to be able to have some humility and open yourself as a human in order to, you know, really drive home the point of the story rather than just recite a memorized script.

Stephanie Judd: [00:10:35] Yes. So there’s a couple of things that we do fundamentally when we are when we are training folks on storytelling, we actually provide them a process and a framework for how to look at a story and really analyze it and understand and design it for for influence. And so our storytelling point of view is that every story, if you want it to be effective at actually changing hearts and minds, has to include four key components. The first is what we call keep it Real, which is exactly what you’re talking about, this idea of vulnerability, authenticity, connection. And it is through keep it real that a story becomes a vehicle for building trust. And so, yes, the first piece is there needs to be an element of yourself as the storyteller that is woven through the story. And that’s easy to do if it’s a story that’s your own. But when it’s a customer story or a brand story or a story that you might tell in a sales process, you have to be really thoughtful about how you include yourself and bring some component of who you are to the story that you’re telling. But that is the first, the first piece. And then we have three other qualities of the story that make it compelling.

Stephanie Judd: [00:11:51] One is engage emotion, which of course, you know, every storyteller will say that One is invite curiosity, which is really about activating the mind and getting people interested in problem solving. And then the final one is pick one theme, which is which is fundamentally the hardest one, but it’s also the one that is the most unique for stories that are designed to engage and inspire and change the hearts and minds of people. And it’s it’s really about having only one point in your story, which is really hard to do. And there’s plenty of great stories out there that have more than one point. But those stories aren’t designed for influence. So if you have a story that has all four of these components, the authenticity, the emotional component, the intellectual interest and a single point, you’ll have a better chance of making your story actually work. And it is by giving people that framework that they can then they can then scale, right? It’s like you can now start to think about, okay, I have a story, it’s on a piece of paper here in front of me. Let me take a lens four times to this story and really make sure that it has all the qualities and components that will make it powerful.

Lee Kantor: [00:12:59] And then you one theme per story. But you can have a lot of stories.

Stephanie Judd: [00:13:05] Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we talk very often. We’re coaching folks who are putting together a presentation and we say, if you’re in a half, if you’re doing a 30 minute presentation, you probably have five story opportunities built in, right? It’s not that you only have one story and that it has to be 30 minutes long. No, no, no, no. You can have a story to open. You can have a story halfway through to to drive one of your points. You can have a story to close. There’s lots of micro moments inside a larger presentation arc that you can use as storytelling opportunities to really push push the point that you’re trying to make in a way that’s really compelling.

Lee Kantor: [00:13:40] Now, can you share maybe a little bit about how you would help somebody like that’s going through that fundamental change in their organization? Maybe there were layoffs. That’s happening a lot in today’s world. They’re seeing, you know, the the trust between the worker and the bosses is fraying. You know, there’s a lot of cynicism and and this change that we’re having today or this layoff we’re having it, it may not look exactly like the one we had, you know, a year or two ago, but it probably rhymes. And and it’s difficult for the kind of the leaders to get that buy in and move these. They’re people, you know, without survivor guilt, without, you know, this fear of the future. How would you help these larger organizations kind of communicate this, a fundamental change that seems to be happening more and more often. And the it seems to me that the employees are getting more and more cynical about the whole thing.

Stephanie Judd: [00:14:49] Yeah. So there’s there’s I’m actually going to take your question and split it into two parts because the first part is, you know, communicating the message. And 99% of the time when communicating large scale change like this, the best opportunity for storytelling as a vehicle is in explaining the why. Right? Why are we doing this? Why do we have to go through this? What is you know, it’s like helping people to really understand the reasons behind what’s happening. And and if a story is wrapped around the why, it’s going to be the stickiest rather than just kind of like, again, here’s the bullet points. Here’s six reasons why. It’s like, no, no, no. Craft a story that is compelling, that has a human component to it, that has characters that we can relate to and gives people a reason to to feel why the change is important. The other piece, though, the piece about fraying trust and the fact that people are disengaged because of that, that is actually, I would argue, from a change management perspective, um, a pull instead of a push opportunity. And what I mean by that is folks who are left behind, if you will, survivor guilt or whatever, those folks need to vent. They need to feel seen, heard and understood. They need to feel like what they’re going through is recognized and acknowledged. And the skill of the leader in those moments is not to be pushing a story, but instead to be asking questions and listening and and holding space and staying quiet and letting people have that opportunity to really get off their chest what they’re feeling. Because because in those moments, it’s yeah, it’s not about the message people. They’ve heard the message. What they want is to feel acknowledged in the experience that they’re having now.

Lee Kantor: [00:16:54] Um, I think it’s so important to, for people that are trying to attempt this on their own, you know, maybe they read, read a book or a blog. This is not something that I would recommend you do without some professional help. You need people like yourselves and your team to help folks really articulate a good message and a good story. Because, you know, there recently there was some news about one leader that had a story that was maybe clumsily told. I think they mentioned like a pity party or something along those lines in the story. And that wasn’t their intention, but it was just done clumsily. And maybe they didn’t understand how they were communicating and how the story was being heard. What advice would you give to folks that think they can do this without some sort of professional guidance? Like what are some of the kind of pros and cons of trying to do something where the stakes are kind of high and you’re trying to kind of do this based on, oh, it’s a story. I know what a story. I’ve heard stories my whole life.

Stephanie Judd: [00:18:02] Yeah, there’s a couple watch outs. That’s absolutely right. And you’re right. Stories can you can fumble the words and then oops, it came out wrong and now it’s out there and people have received a message that you did not intend and that is that is oopsie. Um, and so, so much of what we teach in our story crafting process is that iteration is so, so, so important and having feedback from live audiences that are not the final audience that you’re, that you’re hoping to influence, but that are representative or focus groups mean these things are so, so, so critical in making sure that you land the message exactly the way that you intend for it to land because it can come out wrong. And then and then it’s all it’s all a mess that you have to backpedal and it’s no fun. The other challenge that often happens with organizations, especially ones that are going through change, is that the leaders will be trying to tell a story, but they’re all telling a slightly different version of that story. And because of that, then the messages are getting confused and people are not really sure what what the story is. And so a lot of the work that we do in helping leaders is really making sure that they’re all in sync and that the story that they have designed and crafted together is a story that they can all share consistently, despite the fact that it’s different messenger every time. And so when we are talking to folks who are thinking about doing this without professional help, we often kind of just point to the watch outs and say, okay, hey, just make sure, make sure that you’ve practiced and that you are all aligned on exactly what your story is and that you’re telling it in a way that’s consistent.

Lee Kantor: [00:19:49] Yeah. One of my favorite examples of this kind of iteration are what, like a stand up comedian does. You know, they test material every night and they’re just slowly honing their message or their joke over time with real live people. And then, you know, at the end of the year, then they have an hour special for Netflix. It’s not like their first swing at this is an hour special at Netflix. You know, they’ve been honing this and crafting it and articulating and really getting the words exactly right so they can deliver that message. They want to communicate and it takes them a year. So a lot of leaders I find, you know, they’re asking their spouse or one person and they’re like, yeah, that’s good. And then they go boldly forward to a mass audience with some messaging that hasn’t really been tested and vetted with the people that matter most to them.

Stephanie Judd: [00:20:42] That’s right. We cite the comedians all the time. There are some of the world’s greatest storytellers, and it’s absolutely right. They spent a whole year working on their on their one hour of messaging, if you will. And so, yeah, absolutely. It’s it’s so critical to practice and tell the story and tell the story again and again and again. And it’s actually in that process that you not only get tighter in your messaging and get tighter in your, you know, turns of phrase, but it also comes off the tongue more easily. You start to have the capacity to think about things like timing and things like what is your face going to look like when you say that thing? Or how are you going to shift your body? And so then you can really start to hone the message holistically past just what are the words you’re going to say?

Lee Kantor: [00:21:31] Right? I think that there’s a great opportunity for a lot of companies to really lean on their, you know, salespeople that are on the front lines to kind of test messages and to test and get best practices from the folks who are delivering a story or a message with a variety of people, you know, on a regular basis. So you can quickly hone in on, okay, this is resonating. This isn’t let’s do more of this, less of this. And really, if you can arm your salespeople or the people or your customer support people, the people that are on the front lines dealing with real people, you know, and getting the volume you need, you can really make great strides in a shorter period of time than some, you know, a handful of executives on the whiteboard telling everybody else this is the the way to do this.

Stephanie Judd: [00:22:19] Yes. Yeah, we do a lot of training with salespeople. You know, it’s a natural space where storytelling is is an obvious fit. And yet what you’re hinting at here is actually very interesting in terms of doing a little bit of a pull as well as the push, right? So instead of just training, training salespeople to push the story out is also training them to be listening for what’s resonating, what’s not, and pulling back information about how they should tweak that story or reshape it for the next the next person. And I think that that’s that’s exactly the point. It’s like make sure that your story lives and it’s iterating over time and it grows and it changes and it shapes. It takes on shapes. As as your audiences shift.

Lee Kantor: [00:23:05] Right. And it’s that combination of being a really good listener in order to kind of being paying attention to the cues and the clues that the people you’re trying to influence are giving you so that you can kind of make your story that much more powerful and more relevant to the people that matter most to you.

Stephanie Judd: [00:23:24] Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: [00:23:26] So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, what’s the best way to get a hold of you?

Stephanie Judd: [00:23:33] Our website wolf and heron.com is the best place to find us. And then of course we are we are on LinkedIn at Wolf and Heron as well and.

Lee Kantor: [00:23:45] That’s Wolf spelled out and and is spelled out as well. Wolf and heron.com.

Stephanie Judd: [00:23:51] That’s correct, Wolf. Like the the the animal and heron like the bird.

Lee Kantor: [00:23:55] And I’m sure there’s a story behind that.

Stephanie Judd: [00:23:58] Of course.

Lee Kantor: [00:24:00] Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You’re doing important work and we appreciate you.

Stephanie Judd: [00:24:05] Oh, thank you for having me.

Lee Kantor: [00:24:07] All right. This is Lee Kantor. We will see you all next time on Atlanta Business Radio.