Zach Miller-Frankel and Neil Dunne with Andrson

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Daring To, a podcast that finds out how CEOs and entrepreneurs navigate today’s business world – the conventions they’re breaking, the challenges they faced, and the decisions that they’ve made, and lastly, just what makes them different.

Rita Trehan: [00:00:19] Well, welcome. And today on today’s podcast, Starting Back, what better way to start back my podcast than to have two unconventional breaking boundaries, really showing what Daring To is all about, I have with me Zach Miller-Frankel, who is the co-founder and CEO of Andrson, and Neil Dunne, who is the co-founder and COO of this.

Rita Trehan: [00:00:44] Now, guys, I have to say, I’m a lover of music. I’m a bit older than the two of you, right? You two are youngsters, but are doing some amazing things around music. And interestingly, it started because you both have an interest in music. You kind of have different upbringings. Now, Zach, I understand that you’re a New York guy, from the States maybe and living in Dublin. Is that right?

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:01:07] I am. Yeah. I am a statesman who – don’t worry – was brought up on music far older than I. So, I was brought up on opera and doo-wop and Woodstock soundtrack and all that. And hopped across the pond four years ago to expand my management company, which is where I met Neil, and we decided to go into business together.

Rita Trehan: [00:01:36] Well, you know, number one, quite say, talent come across the pond, if you like, and sort of show how collaboration can happen when you bring talent together. But most importantly, I think, is what you’re actually doing in the music industry. And I know you could not have found a better sort of example of how the crisis that we’ve experienced, the pandemic, about how big things can come from that. Although, your business actually didn’t start on the basis of COVID. It was really founded on the basis of discovery. And if I think about that concept of discovery and how it’s played out with what you’re actually doing with music, it kind of says it all really. It’s discovery, right? Because you’re about trying to link really talented musicians with people that are responsible for the music industry and bringing that talent together.

Rita Trehan: [00:02:34] And it’s been talked about for decades, artists having struggles with music companies, and who owns rights, and who owns that. And, like, every wannabe singer we’ve seen more on the reality TV shows. Like, I sing in the shower thinking maybe one day I’ll be a star. I’m never going to be that. But tell me a little bit about that passion. This idea – like, how can you describe it and say – that you are about the discovery of talent, that you have a passion for music and music discovery. What does that mean, guys, the passion for music and music discovery? And that your role is to serve artists and the music industry. Wow.

Neil Dunne: [00:03:22] Thanks. It’s a big introduction for us to try and live up to. But I think you hit the nail on the head, we came across Andrson, the technology we’ve built from our own pain point. As Zach said, we’re managers and we were sitting in front of our laptops day in, day out years ago, and going to gigs, and reading blogs, and relying on word of mouth to try and discover artists to manage and to work with. And it was, like, 2:00 a.m. in the morning one day – back in the day when we could be sitting in a library together working – and Zach turned to me, he’s like, “Why can’t we automate this? And why can’t we bring it back to what matters most, which is the music?” And I think that’s where the passion sort of comes into play, because myself and Zach wake up every morning, the first thing we think about is music. We go to bed, the reason we can’t sleep is because of music.

Neil Dunne: [00:04:17] And it’s that passion of (1) musicians have the odds stacked up against them, which is why we work in management to try the system. And technology, for better or for worse, can be an aid or a hindrance. And we want to build something that aided both musicians and industry folks. And, again, we have this saying that we just beat on the whole time, it’s, the most powerful tool in the music industry is the human ear. And sure, technology can aid people. But ultimately it should just be aiding people to listen and make the right decisions.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:04:57] Right. I think the –

Rita Trehan: [00:04:59] Sorry, Zach.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:05:00] No. Sorry. Just to add a little bit on to that, because you mentioned it as well, that it’s been happening for decades. I think it’s pretty safe to say – and I don’t think it’s pessimistic to say – that this idea of democratizing the music industry is a very lofty goal. I think musicians will always have the odds stacked against them. But it’s our passion, our job, almost an obligation to help them along with that. And the tools that the industry is currently using, as Neil was saying, don’t focus on the music. They focus on aspects of the artist, so velocity metrics, streaming numbers, things like that. And they don’t necessarily speak to the quality of the act or the potential tenure or longevity of it either.

Rita Trehan: [00:06:07] I mean, it’s fascinating to think of using AI. We see a lot of technology being used everywhere. But it’s the first time that I’ve ever heard of it being used in a very different way to help people discover artists. Like sound, and particularly in these kind of COVID restricted world, I mean, you’re making it digital. People would go and listen to a live concert, go and sit in a pub and listen to somebody playing the guitar. Some of the best musicians have been discovered playing in their local pubs, clubs, whatever. But you often find, as you say, they’re listening to this and they’re not necessarily listening to the sound of the music, they’re watching the audience around them and seeing how they react to it, but not necessarily taking into account what is it about that sound, that uniqueness that the artist has.

Rita Trehan: [00:07:06] Now, you’ve kind of made that possible, because in COVID, nobody can go see anything, right? You can’t see anything. Never mind about hearing things. So, tell me a little bit about this concept of sound. Because, you know, everyone thinks it could have, like, a persona or a brand, but actually you kind of strip away from that. You’re actually getting to the core of, like, what’s really good music and how can you help the music industry focus on that in a way that narrows that focus down, so that they can actually spend their time doing what the music industry should be, which is like making that music and talent available.

Neil Dunne: [00:07:43] Exactly.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:07:43] They are part and parcel, I will say. So, I think in order to truly succeed in the industry, artists do have to have that brand, have that point of view, you know, sort of have a purpose that drives them. But we’re also all about prioritizing the right data at the right time. And for a fledgling artist who mightn’t have the image already but definitely has the sound, it’s more important that they have that first. Because then, anybody can help them craft a persona, can help them craft that image. And in fact, by getting involved with artists sooner, not only do things like drive down hiring or contract prices and things like that, deal prices, but you’re able to aid in that sort of construction and ensure that they’re reaching the demographic that they want to be and that you want them to be as well.

Rita Trehan: [00:08:50] And you guys managed to run this business up very quickly. You started it what? Less than two years ago, I think? About that? And have got to raise lots of money for it, which means that people kind of see this as a really good business out there. How did you manage to get, like, over 8,000 artists to come aboard and go like, “Yeah. We like this idea. Like, this is different.” Why you? Like, what was it? What was your value proposition that you were going to them to help them and they’re like, “Hey, we want to change how you can make yourself come alive, how you get discovered.” How do you kind of take that idea forward? Lots of entrepreneurs would love to know that.

Neil Dunne: [00:09:34] I think you sort of touched on it a few times, and it’s tough using positive language around a global pandemic, but we’ve been incredibly fortunate that people are now focusing on digital discovery. So, you’re right, we’ve been working on this for a long time because the technology itself is state of the art, and it’s brand new, and it’s never been done before. But when we launched initially, we did it as a beta launch back in 2019 at the end of the year, and we wanted to make some changes before we went to market. And I’m so glad we did make those changes. I think one of the fear factors and best pieces of advice combined from other CEOs and other tech founders is, don’t be afraid of releasing your product. Get it out there as soon as possible and start getting feedback.

Neil Dunne: [00:10:30] Because based off that, we have products that could succeed and could withstand initial scrutiny. It’s not perfect. We’re constantly adapting and building it. And I think that, combined with the fact those opportunities have been decimated in the live industry for both discovery and for artists, and combining that with the opportunity of our platform. Like, we’ve had almost a hundred artists connect and start collaborating with each other online, thanks to Andrson. Which is just like we’ve built it for discovery, but to see that we’re also fostering this community of new music. Like, one of our artists on the platform, one half is based in Denmark, the other half is in Chicago. And another, we’ve got a few collaborations happening and we’re going to have our first few releases. So, I think the fact that we’re all locked up, the fact that we have to focus on screens all the time allows people to look for better forms of technology, better forms of discovery.

Rita Trehan: [00:11:40] I think, I mean, you can hear it in your voice as you talk about it, the passion that clearly comes from what you have brought to market, which is much more than a product, right? It’s a special kind of collaboration. It’s a kind of way of bringing not just music together, but people together, I can sense from this. I mean, it really is doing that.

Rita Trehan: [00:12:06] What I find really interesting – which if listeners go back and rewind just a bit – that you say about the advice that you got was like, “Launch it, even if it’s not perfect, because you’ll get feedback.” Because so often we’re finding – and as a true nugget of, like, really valuable leadership learning that you’ve given – that a lot of companies and a lot of organizations where they’re struggling is that they’re producing products that nobody wants. They’re not actually asking if this would be it. But what you guys, it seems, have done is actually going off. Is that right?

Neil Dunne: [00:12:44] Exactly. And I think the other element of it is that, you can have an idea. Anyone can have an idea. What makes an entrepreneur, what makes you a founder, what makes you successful, is making that idea a reality. And that is scary. I think I was talking to some young founders recently and they were saying they’ve got their idea, but they’re not ready to share it yet. I’m like, “Start sharing it. We are all so busy doing our own thing.” Like, Rita, if I told you our next project, you’re not going to go off and do it. You’re too busy running the most amazing podcast out there.

Rita Trehan: [00:13:20] Well, thank you very much. Like, I don’t know that it is, but thank you anyway.

Neil Dunne: [00:13:23] But you know what I mean, we’re all busy running our own careers, pursuing our own goals. If you allow someone else to hear your idea and what you’re going to work on, realistically, they’re just going to try and give you advice and give you some feedback rather than –

Rita Trehan: [00:13:42] Why do you think people are fighting about that? What is it that stops people from doing that?

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:13:47] I think there’s a lot that goes into it. I think we’re still not quite out of the echo of business leaders, or mentors, or parents, or whoever saying, “Don’t share your ideas, someone’s going to come and steal it.” Or, “You better patent that before you do it,” or something like that. And I think there’s this sort of like – it’s not even really old school business mentality, it’s just this older –

Rita Trehan: [00:14:17] It’s old school mentality.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:14:19] But I think it still lingers a little bit. I think, although on a personal level for me anyway, I know I had to work really, really hard at separating the personal aspect of the business from the actual business. And removing myself and knowing that a misstep or a wrong feature or something wasn’t a slight on my idea or on me. It was just a piece of feedback that I needed to adapt to make my product better or our product better. And I think a lot of people are afraid of hearing that because you’re so fueled by this passion that –

Neil Dunne: [00:15:04] It’s a part of you.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:15:05] Yeah. It is.

Neil Dunne: [00:15:07] The other element is the fact that the social network was one of the most successful movies of its time, and it centers around people feeling like their idea was stolen. I think that’s going to come between –

Rita Trehan: [00:15:21] I’ve got an interesting insight – and, again, I think it’s a really important nugget of leadership advice – that the world today isn’t about trying to beat competition or to hold on to an idea. It’s about – I’ll keep using the word discovery because I think it’s a very powerful word – discovery to share, to learn, to engage, to collaborate. They say music is a way of bringing people together, ideas together. I mean, what better pattern to do it than what you’re doing? And by using technology, that just brings – I mean, like, you put the cherry on the cake. Like, the icing is already there, you put the final decadent piece to make this come together.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:16:12] Thank you.

Rita Trehan: [00:16:12] I mean, it’s exciting. Where do you see it going, guys? You know, how do you feel with this passion so that takes it to another level?

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:16:21] I do think it’s important to say – though we both really appreciate it and no Sunday is complete without a cherry on top – I think our competitors, some of our competitors and some of our forbearers, might think that they were the cherry. But, certainly, I think it’s not about beating the competition, but it is about the differentiation. And I do think that the way we differentiate is why we might be the cherry at the moment.

Neil Dunne: [00:16:55] Yeah. And I think it’s also important if you’re asking where we see this going, we’re trying to redefine music discovery. It’s currently operating on some really great systems of user behavior. So, if you like Rihanna and you always like-

Rita Trehan: [00:17:13] I love Rihanna.

Neil Dunne: [00:17:13] There you y go. But what we’re trying to do is trying to broaden that scope so that you can discover musicians that nobody’s ever heard of. They haven’t been signed yet. As a fan, you have the opportunity to be a first fan. You have the opportunity to recommend it to a friend when they’re only playing a hundred cap venues rather than only really getting to engage with an artist when they’re already supported by major labels, which we all know is a real sort of time in the world of opportunity. And so, we’re trying to, I think as an end goal, is being synonymous with music discovery and people understanding the power of audio driven and sound driven search.

Rita Trehan: [00:18:02] I guess, let’s talk about it. Like, you’ve done a great job of bringing kind of artists to the forefront to say, like, “Let’s help you be discovered.” But the music industry must be clamoring over you guys surely. Like, the guys that are watching the figures must be going, “This is great because they’re spending less money. And because they’re being much more targeted and focusing and looking at some of the artist.” But, also, you invented a way, which means they can actually discover more. They can actually gain more and bring more to the world in terms of music. So, the music industry must be excited by what you do. Are they or are they threatened by it?

Neil Dunne: [00:18:45] I definitely don’t think they’re threatened. Certainly, so far, the response has been overwhelming. And, again, I think in a pre-COVID world, it would have made myself and Zach’s job a lot tougher having to fly over to London rather than being able to hop on a Zoom call and being able to get someone’s 15 minutes time and show them something, rather than having to go over and schmooze them for a couple hours and a couple of meetings. It has made things quicker and has made opening doors a lot simpler. And I think it’s also worthwhile knowing, again, when you’ve built something new, it takes a long time for it to be adopted. So, I think we’ve had a really good six months from June to Christmas establishing ourselves, establishing a new user base.

Neil Dunne: [00:19:38] And now, this year, is really about scaling our company and leveraging the partnerships we already have, and growing upon that to try and get real enterprise wide solutions on boards and integrating with other larger platforms, which we’re beginning conversations at the moment. And I think that’ll be the real icing on the cake this year/cherry on top].

Rita Trehan: [00:20:06] And we’ll talk a little bit about that, like, that aspiration that you have and some of the work that you just launched. But let’s get personal for a minute if that’s all right. You two, you kind of just meet and decide to go into business together. So, what’s it been like? You know, let’s talk about how the CEO, the COO, two different personalities, a very common passion that brings you together, different backgrounds. You’re going to be not wanting to be, like, coming across as overconfident. But, you know, Neil, you get named in the 30 Under 30 list of entrepreneurs. Zach, you bought multimillion dollar contracts. Like, musicians and industry has really come together. I mean, you two bring, like, a package together, but tell me, do you guys clash?

Neil Dunne: [00:21:12] Yes.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:21:12] Never. Never, never, never.

Neil Dunne: [00:21:14] And it’s her personality type showing. I know 100 percent. I think one of our strengths is the fact that we definitely have that sort of yin-yang leadership style. We took each other’s boxes when we kind of took them ourselves. And we both have very different skill sets. I think that’s sometimes one of the hardest things when, again, I’m really young. I’m still learning on the job. You’ll always learn on the job. And as soon as you stop learning on the job, you need to change jobs. And I think that’s one of the biggest learning, is, understanding that you can’t do everything yourself. But also learning how to work very closely with someone. And that balance can be really challenging, especially when you’re under pressure.

Neil Dunne: [00:22:05] And I think when you’re a founder and you’re running a company, it really highlights your weaknesses and being able to own up to them and not take things personally, own up to your mistakes, try and fix them, ask for help, move on. That’s how you grow as a person. And I think that’s also really important in partnerships because you are relying on more than just yourself.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:22:38] Yeah. Absolutely.

Rita Trehan: [00:22:38] So, have you been giving each other feedback?

Neil Dunne: [00:22:42] What’s that?

Rita Trehan: [00:22:42] Have you been good at giving each other feedback?

Neil Dunne: [00:22:46] To good maybe.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:22:51] Not quite daily, but we do check in. I mean, we were on the phone to each other pretty much all day, every day, in constant contact, especially now. And there is always this aspect of, as Neil said, yin and yang, sort of the give and take, the picking up where we might have a blind spot, or where we need a pinch hitter, or something like that. And then, it always inevitably comes back to sort of the end of the day, debrief conversation, where you might say, “Please don’t ever make me do that ever again.” Or, “Thanks for taking that, but please don’t ever do that ever again because you really mucked it up.”

Rita Trehan: [00:23:46] It sounds like a very healthy way of, like, being able to be authentic with each other and sort of share and recognize that I’m being honest. Yeah, of course, there’s pressures, which I think is helpful for people that are thinking of working together, that’s kind of natural that it will happen, but it’s how you kind of deal with it.

Rita Trehan: [00:24:06] Let’s talk a little bit about your mentors. Have you had, like, any great mentors in this business? Because, like, it’s an industry that will have loads of advice, people wanting to give you advice in what to do. And how did you decide whether to have mentors, the mentors that you chose? Talk a little bit about that.

Neil Dunne: [00:24:27] They sort of picked themselves. And, certainly, I found that anyway. Like, you’re 100 percent right, we’ve had hundreds of people give us advice. But the ones that are really valuable pick themselves because their advice shines through. And it’s the one that resonates best with us or it’s the one that they’re willing to be so blunt and open and honest rather than just compliments. They’re not there to compliment. They’re there to advice us strategically.

Rita Trehan: [00:24:59] Your tough love mentors. I call them the tough love mentors.

Neil Dunne: [00:25:04] Sometimes.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:25:06] Yeah. It’s a combination.

Neil Dunne: [00:25:07] And we do. I don’t know, Zach, if you want to talk about someone specifically, but Miguel is a very successful CEO in our world has been an amazing adviser to us almost since the very beginning. And has been constantly able to give us feedback from small things like new pictures, tech feedback, but everything all the way to, like, strategic conversations around new clients. And then, I guess, the growing pains that every startup goes through as well. And I think he also hit the nail on the head like everyone offers advice and it’s about understanding what advice is valuable.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:25:56] Absolutely. And I think it’s nice that we sort of straddle the two industries because you have the opportunity to learn them from both sides of the coin. So, Colin absolutely has been an incredible mentor to us. He’s also a musician in his own right. I don’t know that he’ll willingly tell people this right off the bat, but he was in a band at one point.

Rita Trehan: [00:26:27] We have to look that up. We’ll have to look that up and check it out.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:26:33] But on the industry side, I think it’s really important to have – on the music industry side, I think it’s really important that we have mentors there because we’re not techies coming to the industry with what we believe is a solution, which is so often the case with music technology. We come at it having grown up with great mentors in the music industry that have made the venture into technology possible because we understand the landscape so well, and I think that’s a huge asset.

Rita Trehan: [00:27:15] And place here, I think your purpose or your values, whatever you wish to call them, are pretty unique, right? We talked about a couple of them. But there’s one that I love that we haven’t talked about, which I’m really intrigued by as well. A commitment to accuracy, rarely do I see people talk about commitment to accuracy. And I go, “That’s intriguing. That’s interesting.” Where does that come from? And then, I think back to what we’re trying to do, to show that we’re about that, because that’s a unique viewpoint to have, and why you chose that for its importance.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:27:58] I think it comes down to time. I hate this phrase so much, but it is true, time is money. Accuracy cuts down on wasted time, right? So, for music discovery, basically what that means is, more relevant results faster. And I think that was really key to us because, as Neil was saying, in those 2:00 a.m. library sessions, the databases we were using were completely inaccurate because they relied on user tagging and things like that.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:28:04] So, for instance, when I moved to Ireland, I thought, “Oh, sure. I’ll just find the next Hozier and will be happy out.” And what we were finding was that girl groups were tagging themselves like Hozier because it’s Hozier, and they were expecting people to search for him. But that doesn’t do anybody any good. That wastes my time. It puts sort of a bit of a negative image in my head about that band. And I might really, really like them in the end. But I’m not looking for them and I’ve just wasted my time. So, for us, it was all about the accuracy that music analysis can bring rather than the analog ways of user feedback or sort of the ancillary statistics that current systems sort of rely on.

Rita Trehan: [00:29:38] So, it’s getting to the heart of what’s really important, I guess, is what you’re trying to say. It’s like that it’s really trying to get to, like, what’s important. By the way, I like the term time core.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:29:50] I like that.

Rita Trehan: [00:29:50] The time core, because you don’t have all the time that you would like. So, the time that you have, you got to use it to the best advantage that you can. And there is another piece, that commitment to accuracy, I think, is so applicable, like, beyond the music industry. So, what you actually are posing and have done is so applicable across so many different industries and different ways in which that could be used. That kind of thought process of how do you kind of connect what’s important to a passion and to bring real insights into whether it’s running a business, or your music, to listeners, to solving more problems. I mean, really, it’s the intricate thought process that you guys have used to put that together that seems to hold true.

Rita Trehan: [00:30:43] And, of course, you don’t just stop at that, do you? Like, one of the last thing that you talked about that’s been really important to you is around this constant strive for intelligent and relevant technology, but continuously learning. So, this whole concept of continuously learning, unlike earlier when everybody says that, “I’ve said that”. I wonder if it’s true or not. But then, I go and read a couple of your blogs and I go, “Yeah. Crap. It is true.” And I’m sitting there and I’m writing notes of the things that I’m going to do, the habits that I need to do every day to kind of think about. And I’m taking away learnings from that and going like, “Wow. That’s what I need today that I need to focus on.”

Rita Trehan: [00:31:25] And just recently this year, you kind of gave this fresh, inspirational insight about 2021 and how to look at that. So, for you guys, this learning actually goes beyond the business itself. It seems like you are committed to sort of sharing personal knowledge, experience, and helping your musicians grow as individuals. Is that a fair comment? Is that intentional?

Neil Dunne: [00:31:52] I think we’ve both been really lucky in the community that we’ve, not grown up in, but grown up in as entrepreneurs. And, again, it’s sort of like coming back to the fear factor. But most people are very willing to help. And I think when you’re on the receiving end of this, it’s also a duty of yours to try and further share that knowledge that you’ve learned, and normalize some of the stresses and anxieties that come with setting up a business. Because business is smoke and mirrors far too often that it needs to be.

Neil Dunne: [00:32:35] And I think one of the great things from COVID has been, like, we’ve been on Zoom calls and it gets interrupted by a screaming baby or a pass. And it’s making people realize what matters most, and why we’re all here, why we’re doing what we’re doing. And I think if we can shed a small bit of light on our experiences, if we can offer up advice to musicians and industry folk and new entrepreneurs, then why not? And in terms of how we’re learning, we’re constantly – like, again, we’ve got a platform out there. It’s pretty cool. It’s doing a lot of great stuff, but we now have an obligation. It’s not even what it is or want, but it’s an obligation. We’ve got 8,000 musicians on our platform, we are obliged to make our platform better for them. And so, I think it turns into an obligation once you start really sort of gaining some traction.

Rita Trehan: [00:33:40] They say leadership is a choice that you make and it’s an obligation once you make it. So, it sounds like that’s exactly what you guys are doing. Now, let’s talk about something exciting, because you’ve also just launched something new, right? Or about to launch something new.

Neil Dunne: [00:33:56] Yeah. last week.

Rita Trehan: [00:33:56] So, let’s talk a little bit about that, because I can’t like to hear a bit about that, ReWrapped.

Neil Dunne: [00:34:01] Yeah. ReWrapped, basically we have our platform which allows industry musicians connect. And then, we have our engine underneath it that runs all of our audio analysis. And the great thing about our engine is it can plug into any machine that other industry professionals use. And we want to demonstrate that because, again, we’re in a world right now that it’s easy to connect, but we want to make people understand how our technology works.

Neil Dunne: [00:34:33] So, we decided to run a public test where you login with your Spotify and we analyze your top songs that you listen to, and then we generate a playlist of new music that you’ve never heard. Because I think a lot of people sometimes get a little bit bored of some suggestions they get given on music platforms and we want to shake things up and so we did. And we launched it last week and the response was amazing. We’ve had thousands of playlists created from people all over the world. And it’s been really, really rewarding to see people interact with our technology that way.

Rita Trehan: [00:35:13] So, anybody can go do that? Like, they can log onto it and just like check it out and try it and get a whole list of new artists to go listen to?

Neil Dunne: [00:35:23] Exactly.

Rita Trehan: [00:35:23] My husband is going to be so happy when I do that. He’s going to be so excited.

Neil Dunne: [00:35:27] Amazing. Yeah. So, it’s at rewrapped.andrson.com. And it’s currently only using artists in the Andrson database, so a lot of them are unsigned. But I think what we really want to highlight is the potential there. Because, again, if we plug that engine into another system, we got a streaming service like Spotify or Apple Music or in with a major label and use their database. The opportunities are endless.

Rita Trehan: [00:35:56] That’s brilliant. Honestly, guys, it’s been brilliant to talk with you and to learn more about what you’re doing. Your passion, like, it oozes out. I always ask guests on the show to share with our listeners what their Daring To moment is. So, what they’ve dared to do, or daring to do, or all the Daring To learning moment that they’ve had. So, each of you, what’s your Daring To that you would share?

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:36:22] Neil, you first.

Neil Dunne: [00:36:25] My Daring To moment is actually quite simple, it’s we’ve built this audio search tool and we’re daring to be the new form of music discovery in the industry. The odds are always stacked up against new tech companies and new startups. And I think it’s been really encouraging the last few months the progress we have made. So, we’re daring to be the number one in sound based discovery.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:36:55] And mine is similar and sort of opposite, its dare to fail. The worst thing that happens is you fail – it sucks if you’re skydiving. But if you’re running a business and if you’re a leader, you’ve committed to being sort of the keeper or the captain of your audience’s imagination, you know, your user base is imagination. There’s a lot of trust that comes with that. And the worst thing that happens is that you don’t hit the nail on the head, but you get up and start going again. So, yeah, dare to fail.

Rita Trehan: [00:37:43] Wow, what a fantastic sort of ending to the podcast, like, the brilliant advice for anybody that’s listening. So, if listeners want to get in touch, they want to know more about what you’re doing, they want to access some of the technology that you’ve got, or they’re an artist or a big music industry mogul that wants to say, like, “Why did I not know about these guys?” How do they get in touch with you? What’s the best way, Skype, Twitter?

Neil Dunne: [00:38:15] Yeah. Everything. I think I was telling you earlier, we’re one of those really annoying startups that decides to remove a letter from a word that everyone already knows. So, we’re called Andrson, but there’s no E, so it’s anderson.com. And you can get us at Andrson Music on all social media. And so, yeah, absolutely reach out. We’re always willing to have a conversation. We’re always willing for people to tell us that they don’t like what we did because that helps us learn. But, yeah, hit us up. We love to chat.

Rita Trehan: [00:38:45] That’s great. And if you want to find out more about the Daring To podcast and you liked it, make sure that you click and say, yes, you liked it and share it. And you can find out more about Dare Worldwide on www.dareworldwide.com. And you can follow me on Twitter @rita_trehan. And if you really want to, you can find me on LinkedIn, Rita Trehan. It’s been great having you guys. Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing your success. Your rise to success continues.

Zach Miller-Frankel: [00:39:17] Thank you so much.

Outro: [00:39:18] Thanks for listening. Enjoyed the conversation? Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes of Daring To. Also, check out our website, dareworldwide.com for some great resources around business in general, leadership, and how to bring about change. See you next time.