Amy Williams With Good-Loop

Rita Trehan: [00:00:02] Welcome to Daring To, a podcast that finds out how CEOs and entrepreneurs navigate today’s business world. The conventions they’re breaking, the challenges they faced, and the decisions that they’ve made, and lastly, just what makes them different.

Rita Trehan: [00:00:19] Well, joining me today is Amy Williams. And she is known as The Woman. She is impossible to ignore. So, I dare you to not ignore her, because her story around the business that she has created over the last several years is something of interest, I think, that many people won’t really even thought about.

Amy Williams: [00:00:38] So, Amy, a woman that has been recognized as A Woman To Watch 2020 by Ad Age, Forbes 30 Under 30, the face of the UN She Innovates, #sheinnovates. I could go on. You have been nominated for numerous awards. A woman that is driving the tech industry, which is fabulous within itself because we need more women in tech.

Rita Trehan: [00:01:00] And here you are. I mean, you’re like, you know, young, have created this business, have traveled around the world. Let’s just actually talk about what this business is because, you know, you have a saying that I read, which is, “Eyeballs are a value.” So, let’s talk a little bit about what does eyeballs of value got to do with the business that you’ve created, Good-Loop, started in 2016. It’s basically an ethical platform for advertising that does good. Surely that’s not possible. I mean, that just can’t be possible, can it?

Amy Williams: [00:01:37] Yeah. An ethical advertising platform is a little bit of an oxymoron, I’m aware. But I’ve always worked in the industry. I’ve always worked in advertising. I find it a fascinating, brilliant, creative, strategic, challenging industry. And, fundamentally, what every advertiser is buying and selling is our attention. And there is this implicit value exchange in our industry.

Amy Williams: [00:02:02] When you stand at a bus shelter and it’s pissing down with rain, but your head is dry, that’s because the advert on that bus shelter have paid to keep your head dry. There is this value that society creates between an advertiser and a consumer. We will give you a little bit of our attention. And in exchange, you pay for stuff. So, the bus shelter is a really lovely example because it’s so physical, so tangible.

Amy Williams: [00:02:26] But, actually, when you think about the online world, when you think about every article you read, every site you visit, that is funded by advertisers. Your eyeballs are the thing that they are buying. And this value exchange is what I am fascinated by. This moment where an advertiser and a consumer agree to spend a little bit of time and a little bit of attention. And it’s a value exchange that has been broadly quite undermined and quite undervalued.

Amy Williams: [00:02:56] When we traverse the Internet, I think it’s fair to say that advertising is, at best annoying, at worst quite fraudulent and interruptive and intrusive, and can use our data in exploitative ways. It can really be quite unpleasant. You can try and read an article and you really can’t even see the article for all the adverts. So, that’s where the value exchange, in my opinion, has broken.

Amy Williams: [00:03:21] So, my business is about creating respectful, positive online advertising. Pure and simple. We work with global advertisers. We distribute ads across really premium publishers, like The Guardian, The New York Times, The Economist, Bloomberg. And if you choose to engage – it’s always a choice. We’d never force you to watch – if you choose to give that advertiser your precious eyeballs, then you’ll unlock a donation funded by the brand and you get to give it to a charity of your choice. So, the brand gets a moment of engagement and you get to do good for free.

Rita Trehan: [00:03:55] I mean, I’ve got to say, sheer brilliance, isn’t it? I mean, in a world today where people are more discerning, where there is a need for more trust and transparency, when you could argue is advertising digital space, is any kind of media a sort of a slave or a liberator. I mean, you’re making it a liberator, aren’t you? Because you’re letting people make the choice about what they do and how they choose those adverts, but enabling them to actually kind of connect to something that we’re seeing come to the forefront.

Rita Trehan: [00:04:28] You know, if it’s been heightened, it’s been raised even more since COVID about the meaning of trying to find meaning and social impact. We’ve seen lots of companies have platitudes around what they want to do around sort of social impact. But you’re actually helping them to think this through. Why is it taking a $500 billion industry this long to actually think about something that makes perfect sense, doesn’t it?

Amy Williams: [00:04:57] Well, it’s funny. I think there are so many people in our industry that are smart, and creative, and passionate, and also a little bit jaded. Like, there was a study came out from that advertising association a couple of years ago that found that advertising is now less trusted as an industry than banking and estate agents.

Rita Trehan: [00:05:21] We’re talking the low of the low, right?

Amy Williams: [00:05:25] A good place to be, to be honest, Rita. And I think that has really affected people’s confidence in this industry. And, of course, we’re seeing a huge loss of talent of The Great Resignation. We’re just seeing this real kind of absence of pride. And I think that it’s taking a little while because it’s taking a while for us to build back our confidence. And to know that advertising, it has an important role to play in society. Advertising doesn’t have to be that annoying, interruptive thing that gets in the way of your cat videos.

Amy Williams: [00:05:55] It can be something that funds free, independent journalism. That gives you access to a free Spotify account, that makes sure that journalists get paid their salaries. I think especially with the awful war in Ukraine and the way that the Kremlin has been using disinformation as a propaganda tool within this conflict, it has exaggerated and amplified how important and how valuable are free independent presses. And that’s thanks to advertising. So, we’ve just got to get a little bit more confident our industry again and start to find our place in society. And you mentioned that –

Rita Trehan: [00:06:34] Sorry, Amy. I interrupted you. But I do want to interrupt just a little bit, because that point about Ukraine, you’ve actually just given a speech recently or part of a discussion around this about misinformation in the media. But you’re sort of vision, clearly, is much wider than the impact of advertising. It sounds like it is really about helping people to understand the impact that advertising has on world events.

Rita Trehan: [00:07:02] I mean, it sounds like a movement that you are trying to help create sort of understanding around the value of advertising and its role in shaping world events in a purposeful and, I would say, fair and transparent way. Now, that’s a lofty goal.

Amy Williams: [00:07:24] And I’m under no illusions that advertising is one of the big things that got us into this mess. Like, I’m not blind to the role that our industry has played in creating quite damaging consumerism, and really degrading mental health of young people, and creating fake beauty standards, and really shutting down and silencing a lot of diverse voices.

Amy Williams: [00:07:51] Our industry has a lot of problems and our industry has a lot to be accountable for. But at the end of the day, you mentioned already, you know, it’s a $500 billion industry. And, actually, we are in the business of shaping desire. We are in the business of shaping consumer behavior, changing society.

Amy Williams: [00:08:08] So, just as we can encourage people to smoke cigarettes and use gas cookers, we can also encourage them to eat less meat and drive electric cars. And we can champion real beauty and challenge fake beauty standards. And we can get more diverse voices into T.V. screens and on the media. So, I think that our industry has a huge role to play. It has a huge influence in society, for better or for worse. It’s a tool that can be used either way.

Rita Trehan: [00:08:36] So, let’s talk about your journey into this business and Good-Loop’s future, because you’ve managed to not only sort of bring that passion to bear about the company, but you’ve managed to grow it. You know, you’ve raised several million pounds or dollars of funding and you’re expanding internationally. But, you know, you started your career in the sort of advertising industry.

Rita Trehan: [00:08:58] And you are known for saying that you were on a workshop talking about freshness and you said, “Oh. It doesn’t sound very interesting to me. I’d much rather talk about like how we can save water.” And with one of the clients that you were working with at the time, which I think was Unilever, who are actually very passionate about sort of social impact per person. And playing a role in global issues that we face today. And from there like, “Oh. Yeah. This isn’t really interesting me,” you go off and travel around the world. I mean, that’s pretty brave.

Rita Trehan: [00:09:34] But how did you have the courage to do that? Because there’ll be lots of people that maybe are sitting in a similar position as you were then thinking like, “You know, I’ve always wanted to do something of meaning. I know that I’ve got a passion for the industry but I want to do something different.” I mean, you went off to learn. So, talk a little bit about what that was like for you.

Amy Williams: [00:09:56] Yeah. I never felt brave at the time. It’s funny, people do say that, like, “Wow. That’s so brave.” And it’s such a lovely thing to say. Thank you for saying that. But it really doesn’t feel like that at the time. It feels terrifying and stupid.

Amy Williams: [00:10:13] Honestly, I had this incredible career at an amazing agency, and I just threw it all away. And I think it’s a bit of a double-edged sword. I have this personality type who as soon as something starts to feel a bit stale or a bit boring, I just have to shake things up. I have to break everything, which can be quite self-destructive. But in that moment, I looked ten rungs up the career ladder to where I was, and I thought, “I don’t think I want to be there. I don’t think that’s interesting enough. And I don’t think that’s inspiring me.” So, I just quit.

Amy Williams: [00:10:49] And I didn’t even have a plan. I just walked into that office one day and sort of in a daze, quit. I remember going home to my partner that night and saying, “I quit my job today.” And he was like, “What? Do you want to discuss it or anything?”

Rita Trehan: [00:11:04] “Do you want to go back and see if they’ll give it back to you.

Amy Williams: [00:11:08] “Maybe go back.” I just had this feeling, like, if you don’t break something then there’s no space for new ideas to grow. I love this idea of, like, a forest fire burning through a forest. And then, the fresh sheets. This idea of fire being quite healthy and important part of nature. You know, burning it all down to see what new, fresh ideas can grow. So, that was sort of the thing in my head. That was the big grand vision was just to burn it all down and see what happens.

Amy Williams: [00:11:39] And like you say, I went traveling. I think that’s a really healthy way to kind of break out of any staleness and any routine that you have is to just put yourself in entirely new context. And, for me, that was traveling to South America. I just always fancied seeing South America.

Amy Williams: [00:11:58] And, also, Chile in particular, has a really interesting program called Start-Up Chile. It’s funded by the government. It’s really modeled on Silicon Valley and about bringing a lot of the Silicon Valley values into Latin American culture. And so, I just thought that would be a really interesting combination of my two interests.

Amy Williams: [00:12:16] So, I sort of went down there. I went on a course in entrepreneurship. I met a ton of other entrepreneurs. And when you start to meet other people that have done it, it feels so much more realistic. You know, they say you can be what you can see. And it’s so true. It is. It’s so true when you’re thinking about diversity. But it’s also just when you’re thinking about changing your life, just go out and meet people who are already doing it because suddenly it doesn’t seem so scary.

Amy Williams: [00:12:42] So, that was a kind of life changing moment, really, was being out there and having that privilege and that opportunity to meet people like that. And I came back from that trip with the beginnings of the business plan that is today Good-Loop.

Rita Trehan: [00:12:55] Let’s talk a little bit about the beginnings of the business plan, because 2016, I’m a bit of a skeptic and I go and I look at all these companies, and I’m often advising them and saying, “Please don’t tell me that you’re really into social impact and that you’re a purpose-driven company. Because, you know, I can walk in and I can look around, I can feel the culture, I can touch it.” And, yeah, you’re trying to do a lot of the right things, but actually are you really if we look at it?

Rita Trehan: [00:13:22] And I can imagine, I mean, that’s today when companies are actually – all credit to them – now, I think, stepping up more than ever to sort of recognize that they have a role to play in global challenges, not just in running their companies. And that profit and and purpose go together. They’re not two extremes. They can actually work in balance together.

Rita Trehan: [00:13:49] But 2016, I don’t know, taking that idea to people and saying, “Hey, we’ve got this idea that you’re interested in getting as many people as you can to look at your adverts because you think that that’s the way to kind of attract them in. What we’re saying is, let them choose whether they want to watch it, but actually think about what they want, not what you want. And let’s give some of that money to charity as well.” Tell me about the challenges of convincing people of that. I mean, did you find they were all like, “Yeah. Amy, let’s do it.” Or were they like, “Hmm?”

Amy Williams: [00:14:27] Oh, man. You’re so right. All kind of internal thesis is to treat people like partners, not targets. And that is quite a challenging idea because, not only is it a new way of thinking about advertising, it’s also a criticism of the existing status quo. And so, going into any industry and saying what you’re doing is wrong, is a really, really difficult place to start.

Amy Williams: [00:14:50] So, I actually really underplayed that at the beginning. And I really focused instead on the trend, that you’ve perfectly articulated there, which is every business needs to do good. And we are a really easy way for you to start on that journey. You know, it’s such a simple little switch to say you’re already running ads on T.V. or on YouTube, why don’t you just run out with Good-Loop instead? And then, every time someone watches, you will fund a charity.

Amy Williams: [00:15:16] And to your point, you know, there’s so many businesses that say they want to do good. Well, let’s put some spend behind that. Let’s put some action behind those words. How about every time someone engages, you actually fund a self-esteem workshop or you build a well? Let’s put action behind your brand purpose. So, that was a much more uplifting and much less challenging entry point into the market.

Amy Williams: [00:15:37] Like, even just learning how to articulate the proposition and learning how to say it in a way that got people inspired rather than challenged. And challenging stuff along the way, but in a much more inclusive approach. And that is the biggest challenge, I think, is learning how to articulate the value proposition of what you’re building.

Amy Williams: [00:16:00] And, again, I’m building a business that does good. I’m building a B Corporation, a carbon neutral business that funds charities from our top line. We are a very, very social business, but I hardly mention that. I hardly mention the charity donation to any investor and, certainly, to any customer. I talk about performance. I talk about growth. I talk about heightened engagement. And how the advertiser is going to get better ROI. And the investor is going to get better returns because we’re doing something different in the industry. And the social impact is nice to have, a cherry on top.

Amy Williams: [00:16:31] In my heart, it’s the reason I get up every day, but it’s not the reason someone’s going to invest. And learning that is really tough. Like, learning that the thing you care about doesn’t matter to anyone else. It’s really, really tough.

Rita Trehan: [00:16:44] Are you seeing that today? Do you see that today? Do you really think that that’s still true today? That’s an interesting thought.

Amy Williams: [00:16:51] We’re not charities. Good-Loop isn’t a charity. We don’t donate to charity out of the goodness of our hearts. We donate to charity because it gives people a meaningful reason to engage with the advertiser, which gives the advertiser better results, which means that we win over our competition, which means that we grow.

Amy Williams: [00:17:11] So, even I can’t claim that the social good is the reason I do it. Like, owning up to this gray area where you do good, but you also have selfish goals, like you say purpose and profit, driving together. There’s a lot of awkwardness around this idea of benefiting from doing good or making a profit whilst building a social business. I don’t think we should be embarrassed about that. I think that’s a great thing. [Inaudible] change.

Rita Trehan: [00:17:34] Why do you think hat is? Why do you think that is? Surely, I mean, it makes sense that the two go together. It’s not like one is good and one is bad. Or if you only do profit, therefore, it’s actually a win-win. I think you described it as a win-win. Why do you think there is this sort of unease or discomfort about saying that you can do both?

Amy Williams: [00:18:03] I don’t know. Maybe it feels a bit disingenuous. I think so much of this responsibility for so many years has been so disingenuous. You see fossil fuel companies investing in solar energy whilst also lobbying governments to increase the reliance on fossil fuels. These layers of corporate philanthropy or CSR that are so paper thin that consumers have become rightly very cynical. And I think that’s absolutely the right trend. We should hold businesses to account. We should hold individuals to account. When you say that you stand for gender equality, you should also not have a gender pay gap. And if you do, I’m going to call you out for it.

Amy Williams: [00:18:47] Did you see that Twitter bot over International Women’s Day? Every time a brand used the hashtag, the Twitter bot would retweet with their gender pay gap, which was just really nice. So, I kind of embrace the cynicism as well. I think it’s healthy to have a dose of that when we’re talking about business philanthropy, because fundamentally these businesses are there for the benefit of their shareholders. Which means that they are exclusively existing to extract value from excite from society. We can’t get around that.

Amy Williams: [00:19:21] We really need to work with NGOs and governments to solve big systemic issues. And relying on businesses is relying on an emperor in new clothes. But embracing businesses that are trying to do both and letting them learn and take steps towards more positive business action. Perfection is the enemy of progress. And if every time a corporate did something wrong, we chastise them and we show them how badly it can go. And when they do something wrong, they’re never going to try. And I just think we’ve got to get these big businesses a bit braver about doing things with a social slant.

Rita Trehan: [00:19:58] So, how do you help companies do that? Because I don’t know, but I would imagine that they will either now, particularly after COVID, be saying like, “This is fabulous.” We recognize now that trust is really important. And, actually, we see our customers, or our prospective customers, or people that we want to engage with, we recognize that they’re looking to want to work with organizations that are doing something meaningful or have some sort of social responsibility or have some impact in areas.

Rita Trehan: [00:20:31] Do they then come to you thinking that you are going to kind of deliver it all? And, therefore, their expectations are sort of way out of reach from where they are? And if so, how do you manage that? Or do they become very nervous and kind of tentative around what they should be doing? And if it’s that and maybe it’s both, so you can talk about both, what do you do to kind of, like, show them the possibilities? So, I guess two, one is think you’re going to help solve all of their problems and generate masses of growth for them – which clearly you guys are doing – and those that are too tentative. How do you deal with those different types of clients?

Amy Williams: [00:21:15] Yeah. And we do absolutely get both. And I’ll first deal with the nervous ones because that’s probably the easier challenge. We do get a lot of businesses come to us that say, “With all of the Black Lives Matter protests, we feel that we should be doing something around black empowerment, but we don’t know what.” And that is a very sensitive topic. And there is a lot of ways that brands can get it wrong. And there is a lot of ways that big businesses can contribute, and help, and amplify a really important message. So, they shouldn’t be nervous. They should be excited. And they should be cautious.

Amy Williams: [00:21:53] So, what we would say is, “Where in your business are you already showing this through your actions?” firstly, because if there’s no evidence of that, then unfortunately we can’t work with you on this particular case. So, we have an internal filter that says we need evidence that this is an internal initiative, first and foremost, before we’ll help you promote it. Once we’ve got that evidence, then it passes our sort of internal ethical review process. And then, it’s a case of looking at where this business can have an authentic impact on an issue.

Amy Williams: [00:22:27] So, always start with what your business does for consumers. What is the benefit your business offers to consumers. And then, how do you amplify that to broader society. Because that’s how you’re going to find an authentic purpose.

Amy Williams: [00:22:38] So, a great example of this recently is Airbnb. Their product is a platform to help people find homes around the world. Their benefit to consumers is that they make you feel like you belong anywhere. You can go to a completely new city and you can feel like you belong there. So, to amplify that to a social good, to a societal good, they helped refugees find safety and home at a time of crisis.

Amy Williams: [00:23:03] So, that’s a brilliant execution from product through to social impact that feels fully authentic, really meaningful, and just really, really engaging, and amplifying for their brand and their business. You know, talking about that sort of selfish lens, more people are going to book Airbnb’s because of it, frankly. So, that’s how we deal with them.

Amy Williams: [00:23:26] And, often, the NGOs play a big part with those Nervous Nellies because the NGOs are the ones of the experts. So, they’ll help them with the language. They’ll make sure they add authenticity and credibility. And they’ll make sure that the money goes to the right people, to the communities that they wish to serve. So, partnering with NGOs is a really, really big part of getting it right.

Amy Williams: [00:23:46] On the other end of the scale where you’ve got brands coming in saying, “We’re going to solve the world’s problems,” I would say great, firstly. But also not every business has to have a big ostentatious goal. Not every business can authentically change the world.

Amy Williams: [00:24:07] And a great example of this is Unilever’s brand, PG Tips. They are teabags. That’s just a teabag. They’re not going to solve the world. They can’t end racial inequality, or create social mobility, or solve climate change. They can clean up their supply chain and they can make sure that they’re an inclusive employer.

Amy Williams: [00:24:30] But as a brand, their purpose is addressing loneliness. Because when you sit with a cup of tea and you go and visit a neighbor or you talk to your elderly relative and you make a cup of tea, you connect, you get off your screens and you talk to someone with eye contact, and then a meaningful amount of emotional connection. And that is a brand purpose that is never going to change the world, but it’s really authentic to who they are and what they do. So, I kind of love that as well. Like, scaling it back and thinking about where businesses, perhaps, can do smaller things, but still a meaning.

Rita Trehan: [00:25:03] They can do some great things. I know my niece works for them and she’s started working for them. And she comes home and she’s always passionate about just what they are really doing, like, from a social impact, from the packaging that they use, that they really do mean what they say. I mean, it’s great to see companies like that.

Rita Trehan: [00:25:21] And, you know, they were one of your early clients. So, you’ve got some big name clients that, I think, credit to your organization, to your company, for actually kind of reaching out to those because the bigger multinationals are harder to change sometimes and hard to accept. But, yet, you pick some very forward thinking organizations and/or they become more forward thinking through working with you. You know, it’s probably a bit of both.

Rita Trehan: [00:25:50] So, I have a question, so we’ve talked a lot about sort of like the advertising and how it can be a force for good, if you like, of have a purpose that does good as well as make a profit. As you think about the organizations, I can’t help wondering – we were talking about the gender pay gap was just an example. I get very passionate about that too – just the value propositions or the cultures that companies have, I mean, they’re often advertising who they are as a company for prospective employees. That’s advertising. That’s branding. That’s a messaging.

Rita Trehan: [00:26:26] I mean, how do you help them think about that? And do you guys think about that and you’re helping them think about advertising generally? Or is that an area that you think is, maybe, the next area that companies need to be thinking about at all?

Amy Williams: [00:26:42] Yeah. Well, you said it yourself with your niece, she comes home proud to work for an organization because of the things they do in their marketing, and their supply chain, and in their corporate governance. To me, it is a natural outcome of some of the work that businesses have to do internally, that their employees are proud to work at that organization and become advocates and become champions for that business.

Amy Williams: [00:27:09] So, it’s not something we work on explicitly, to be honest. We’re very laser focused on advertising. And when brands come to us, they’re often coming to us with three different pressure points to want to do good. One is consumers. Consumers are four times more likely to buy from a brand if they’ve taken a stance against climate change. Another is employees. Employees are so much more likely to stay at an organization if they feel that their work has purpose. And the third is shareholders. Shareholders are looking for sustainable ESG investments. The mention of ESG in SEC filings have tripled in the past month.

Amy Williams: [00:27:47] So, this sort of triple attack on organizations from consumers, from employees, and from shareholders, means that we are one of many solutions that they’re looking to, to kind of clean up their internal processes and, therefore, placate those key stakeholders.

Rita Trehan: [00:28:05] Let’s talk about some of the solutions that you’re working on, because one of them has to do with climate change and sort of ESG. And, again, I’m totally with you on this that we’re seeing this massive sort of uptake on sustainability reporting, and sustainability index, and ESG, and diversity inclusion, and equity. And you put all of those things in the mix. We’ve kind of been looking at them through all these different angles. Nobody is necessarily connecting them together. It sounds like you guys are doing that. You’re, like, kind of connecting the dots a little bit. So, tell us a little bit about what you’re doing in the area of that to help companies.

Amy Williams: [00:28:41] So, they started about a year ago. It started as an internal question. So, I’ve always said I want Good-Loop to be carbon neutral from inception. So, finger in the air, throwing some money at some trees, and said we’re carbon neutral. But we never really interrogated it properly. And it got to a point where we were like, “Okay. Right. This isn’t really good enough. We need to know the actual carbon cost of running adverts online.”

Amy Williams: [00:29:06] Which, I sort of assumed we could find. And then, months of research go by and there really wasn’t any answer. There really wasn’t anyone with that answer. No one had done that work. So, it started as an internal project to say, “Okay. What is the carbon cost of our ads? How do we offset what we deliver?”

Amy Williams: [00:29:26] So, we created a methodology, essentially mirroring a methodology that’s internationally recognized for website calculations. If you calculate the carbon cost of a website, you use a certain data transfer methodology. And we just nicked that, basically. And we looked at how we use data transfer to deliver adverts.

Amy Williams: [00:29:44] And that meant that we could then confidently say we were carbon neutral and start going out to our clients saying to update. We’ve now got this methodology, so don’t worry. Good-Loop is fully carbon neutral. And they go, “Wow. How’d you do that then? That sounds quite good.” So, it was sort of a bit of a start up pivot moment where we said, “Oh. We’ve actually built something here that other businesses could benefit from.” So, we spun it out to its own product.

Amy Williams: [00:30:09] And really simply, it’s just like a tracking tag that you append to your digital campaigns, like a viewability tag. It’s just a one by one pixel. It tracks data transfer and then it carbon offsets in real time. So, any advertiser can use it on any digital campaign. And it will mean that the full campaign is measured and offset. And the measurement piece is really important because offsetting is obviously the absolute minimum. What we should be doing is actually reducing our carbon emissions.

Amy Williams: [00:30:38] So, buying on publishers that use carbon neutral servers, buying at times of day when the electricity grid is more renewable, using lighter file sizes to reduce the data transmission and to reduce the electricity usage. So, this is the sort of insight that our dashboard can deliver back to clients so that they can offset what they have to use, but also reduce what they spend.

Rita Trehan: [00:31:01] So, I hope that as the listeners are listening to that piece, that they go back and play that again. Because there are a number of organizations out there right now that are feeling very nervous about their commitment to hit the targets of zero emissions. And I think you’ve just given them a really cool idea of how they can at least start or accelerate their work in that area. So, let’s hope that they go back and listen and replay that bit, particularly, because it is important.

Rita Trehan: [00:31:27] So, let’s talk about you as a leader. I mean, come on, 30 Under 30, Woman to Watch, like impossible to ignore. Tell us a little bit about you as a leader.

Amy Williams: [00:31:41] Oh, wow. How do I answer that?

Rita Trehan: [00:31:43] Did you always know? Like, when you were a young girl, were you at school going like, “You know what? I’m going to lead something one day. I just know that’s what I’m going to do.”

Amy Williams: [00:31:53] No. God, no. I was bullied awfully at school. I was so shy. I was so nerdy. You can’t see it on the podcast, but I’ve got big sticky out ears, and everyone used to call me Toby Jugs.

Rita Trehan: [00:32:06] I can see your ears, and you haven’t got big sticky out ears. Well, I can show you my calves if you want. I used to get called tree trunk legs. So, there you go.

Amy Williams: [00:32:16] We’ll start a self-help group. We’ll get each other through it. And I think the thread I pulled between that nerdy kid at school and today is that I loved theater. I was always the the main character in all the school plays and all the musicals. And, today, being a CEO, so much of it is about storytelling.

Amy Williams: [00:32:39] And being a leader is about making people feel a part of your story, making people want to join it, seeing their role within a broader story, and setting a vision for your business, and talking to investors and talking to customers. It’s the same story, but you’re just pulling at different threads and amplifying different parts depending on who you’re talking to, what your audience is.

Amy Williams: [00:33:01] So, that skillset I learned back on those stages when I was Fagin and Oliver Twist. Today, that still rings true. In terms of being a leader, my philosophy on it is, especially as a young entrepreneur – I mean, I started this business at 25 – I am under no illusions that I have very little of the answers. Like, so many of the people I’m bringing into my business are more experienced, more talented, more expert in their field.

Amy Williams: [00:33:33] And my job is to just bring in the best possible people, to give them a direction, to support them, and lead them. But, actually, be humble enough to acknowledge their expertise and to kind of let them bring something to the table. So, yeah, it’s less about leadership. It’s more just about galvanizing everyone in a certain direction.

Rita Trehan: [00:33:55] And did that change over COVID, do you think? Have you changed as your organization changed? Like, that two year period where we kind of like all disappeared, and all hunkered down, and tried to find who we were and where we were, and everything else in between?

Amy Williams: [00:34:14] Oh, man. It was a tough time. But I found it really, really difficult. As a leader, you look to the answers and I had none. And so, there was a lot of sort of radical transparency during that time where I had to say, we are working to preserve everyone’s jobs, we are working to keep everyone safe, but can’t guarantee anything. And that’s a horrible thing to have to say. And to try and be vulnerable with the team and to try and show a certain level of my own real experience was sort of the way I dealt with it.

Amy Williams: [00:34:45] I always think about there’s that parable about a sailor who he knows around this next bend is the most dangerous part of the sea. And in the first voyage, he says, “It’s going to be great. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry. We’re going to nail it.” And then, the ship wrecks. And the second time he sails it, he tells the sailors, “This next corner is going to be the hardest thing you’ve ever done. But I’m here with you and I’m scared as well.” And then, they sail through it. Like, that was the thing that kept me going in COVID, that idea, so that was sort of my approach.

Amy Williams: [00:35:19] In terms of how it changed the business, I mean, as you’ve mentioned, every business suddenly stepped up. There was this huge swell of empathy and kindness from everyone, businesses to next door neighbors. So, we’ve got a ton of brands coming to us wanting to support food banks, and homeless shelters, and hygiene banks, and medical research. And that kept us all going, I think, was feeling like we really were helping. We funded half-a-million meals to families below the poverty line over Christmas.

Amy Williams: [00:35:48] And being a part of the solution is really empowering. And to your point, when everyone sat at home finding themselves and thinking about what’s the point of it all, well, we’ve got a point. So, I think everyone in my team felt like we had a purpose. We were doing something that mattered, and we could be proud of that. We didn’t lose anyone. I’m proud to say we kept everyone’s jobs. Nobody jumped ship to continue the metaphor. And I think we’ve just come out of it so much stronger.

Rita Trehan: [00:36:15] But to your point about, you know, people that feel that they’re really connected to something, and have that kind of trust and transparency with an organization are four times more likely to stay. It sounds like you’re doing a good job within your company to actually help connect people to something that’s very meaningful, and actually helping to create a difference.

Rita Trehan: [00:36:35] So, you’ve obviously made some great strides with organizations. But the advertising industry is a massive industry within itself. How do you get to some of those people that are actually on the advertising side that are running the other platform, say, or helping them to engage with those as well as the organizations around this concept of advertising with good, with a purpose to it, of doing some good?

Amy Williams: [00:37:06] Yeah. I think I would be very happy if more platforms copied us. I don’t tell my investors that.

Rita Trehan: [00:37:15] I didn’t hear that. I didn’t hear it.

Amy Williams: [00:37:16] I mean, our competitive advantage in the market is that we approach things from a more responsible, positive, and respectful perspective. I mentioned treating consumers like partners rather than targets. I wouldn’t be that bothered if YouTube also adopted that philosophy. I wouldn’t be that bothered if YouTube also decided to donate 50 percent of their turnover to charity.

Amy Williams: [00:37:39] If I can use Good-Loop as a vehicle to lift the industry up, then that’s something I’d be very, very happy with. And I think that’s part of our mission is engaging the industry in these conversations. So, we work really closely with several of the other ad tech companies. A lot of them use our Green Ad Tag to carbon offset, for example. And we work with them on making sure we find fantastic publishers to support, making sure that we’re relying on things like that.

Amy Williams: [00:38:14] So, yeah, it’s an industry wide change. We aren’t going to have all the solutions. And, actually, rising tide lifts all boats so I’m very engaged in the industry as a broader kind of part of our mission.

Rita Trehan: [00:38:28] And I think you will find a way to create that ecosystem just from the way that you kind of talk about it and think about it. It’s about how do you kind of create almost, like, that flywheel effect. If you’re all working together, it’s not about competing. It’s about combining those efforts and just imagine what we could all do from that perspective. I think you’re on to something there that I would wholeheartedly encourage you to continue.

Rita Trehan: [00:38:56] Well, a couple of last questions. I’d love to continue, but I’m also conscious that we’re going to run out of time. So, there’s two areas that I do really want to ask about. Around that sort of connecting and treating consumers as partners, there’s a massive, massive focus right now on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Lots of companies are trying to build that bridge about what does that really mean. You raised the point about Black Lives Matters, and how sensitive that can be and how it can either go well or not, depending on how you do it.

Rita Trehan: [00:39:29] But part of this transparency is how do we get organizations to actually reflect the customer population who they are actually serving, potentially, because very often they don’t reflect people, or the client, or the consumer, or the supplier that they are. So, how can this help to do that? I guess it can in a way, right? Like, having people sort of participate in there, giving a voice in a way to what they think is important.

Amy Williams: [00:40:03] It’s something I think about a lot because I think it’s one of the biggest responsibilities of our industry. If we’re going to spend $500 million, we have a responsibility to spread that wealth and to reach a diverse audience and to reflect back to them an image of society that is inclusive. So, yes, something I’ve been thinking about a lot. And it’s something actually a lot of our clients are coming to us asking about, especially in the U.S. In the U.S., I’d say it’s the number one thing clients talk to us about, which is awesome.

Amy Williams: [00:40:35] In terms of what we’re doing, there’s sort of two layers. The first is at the brand purpose and the charity level. So, an example of this, we work with P&G. They have a brand called Pantene and Pantene do a campaign called Hair Has No Gender. It’s a beautiful piece of creative. It’s all around celebrating trans and gender nonbinary people within the beauty industry.

Amy Williams: [00:41:00] And we worked with them to deliver a campaign. Every time someone engaged with that creative and watch that ad, they unlock a donation to Gendered Intelligence, which is a wicked charity that funds the gender nonbinary community. And as the consumer, when you watch the advert, you could choose to support a helpline, a mental health helpline, or work in schools with youth programs to educate and raise awareness.

Amy Williams: [00:41:24] So, that’s the first thing we do, is just using our technology to connect brands with NGOs and with the end consumer. Above and beyond that, the second layer is how your ad dollar is actually reinforcing the thing you say you stand for. If you say that you’re a pro-trans, pro-queer, LGBTQ+ empowering brand, but then you actively don’t buy on terms like gay and lesbian because you consider it brand unsafe, then you’re not supporting that community.

Amy Williams: [00:41:56] You know, magazines like Attitude, The Pink Times, Gay News, these sites often struggle to get advertisers to run because advertisers just sort of block those keywords. And Vice found that their coverage of the Black Lives Matter movement got 57 percent lower CPMs, which is the lower price, 57 percent lower price, because so few brands were buying that space. Because brands were just saying, “Oh, that’s a bit sticky and a bit awkward, so we just don’t want our ads appearing next to it.” Which is a completely wrong thing to do.

Amy Williams: [00:42:29] If you say you’re a brand that stands for these issues and represents these communities, be in those places, fund that journalism. So, that’s the second thing we do. It’s like, actually, if you’re going to run a campaign focusing on gender nonbinary communities, then we actually buy inventory on Attitude Magazine and The Pink Times, and similarly across all different kinds of issues.

Rita Trehan: [00:42:51] That’s awesome. You just give me some things to think about, about clients that I work with, and others that I know about how we can kind of push that message across because that’s really insightful.

Amy Williams: [00:43:04] It’s quite an easy win as well. This is the thing I love about what I do, what it does is it’s really simple little wins that help move the brand forwards, the incremental steps. You don’t have to overhaul your whole diversity recruitment strategy tomorrow. This is something you can do today.

Rita Trehan: [00:43:21] I love that. And by the way, the name Good-Loop, I can’t help thinking that – and maybe you didn’t think about this – it’s kind of the loop is combining the profit with the good, and the good is the good loop together. I don’t know, that’s what came into my head when I saw the name. Probably not what you meant but –

Amy Williams: [00:43:42] Actually, it is. It’s like a virtuous cycle, sort of. Using good to fuel business benefits. That’s what we’re all about.

Rita Trehan: [00:43:48] Well, it’s been fabulous to talk to you. You are an inspirational force. And I have no doubt that you’re going to continue to have an impact around the world. So, congratulations, obviously, on the funding that you’ve secured, more funding to kind of grow the business go out there and do it, particularly in the States, because there’s a lot of big companies out there that are crying out for the help in this area.

Rita Trehan: [00:44:13] So, my last question to you is – I always ask everybody – what’s your Daring To moment? A Daring To moment could be something that you dared to do in the past, something that you’re daring to do right now, or that you daringly want to do in the future. What would yours be, do you think?

Amy Williams: [00:44:29] I suppose in the past, my Daring To moment would be daring to break everything. And daring to be vulnerable to complete failure. And the way I got around that was defining success in a really, really small incremental way. So, in my mind, when I started Good-Loop, I was so afraid of failing because you’ve told everyone like, “I’ve quit this big job. I’m starting this company.” It’s really putting yourself out there.

Amy Williams: [00:45:03] And when you go to the pub and you meet your friends, the first thing they say – and it’s a complete habit. People don’t do it on purpose – is like, “What are you up to now? How’s the job going?” It’s the first thing. And when you’re in this early stage of starting a business, it’s your most vulnerable, most soul, shy, awkward part of your life. And, like, it’s the first opening question when you meet someone. So, that was a real dare to.

Amy Williams: [00:45:28] And the thing is, as soon as I started the company, that was a success. As soon as I raised our first £100 for charity, that was a success. As soon as I hired my first person, that was a success. So, it just felt less scary because the successes were quicker and easier to retain. So, that’s something I kind of try and carry with me is that idea of success not being an end goal, but being all these little steps along the way.

Rita Trehan: [00:45:49] That’s great advice for founders, people that have been CEOs for a long time, and people that are aspiring to be senior leaders anywhere in the world. And that’s a really insightful comment about it’s the small things that make the difference. That if you focus on what those successes are and value them, then you’d be surprised how much you can achieve.

Amy Williams: [00:46:10] So, Amy, thanks so much. If people want to know more about Good-Loop, understand more about how they can be part of this movement, I would call it, and want to know more about you and the company, how can they get in contact with you? Website, LinkedIn, Twitter, what’s the best way?

Amy Williams: [00:46:25] Yeah. So, our website is good-loop.com. And if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, Amy Williams is a painfully common name. But if you put Amy Williams Good-Loop, then it should come up. And I’m always happy to grow my network and meet new people. If anything I said today inspires you or raises more questions, then please you get in touch. Like, I’m happy to help if it’s just bouncing around ideas for a new business, or if you have questions around green and sustainable media, whether it’s Good-Loop or not, it’s something I’m really passionate about, so I’m always happy to help.

Rita Trehan: [00:47:00] Well, I know you are somebody that is impossible to ignore, without a doubt. And I hope that people continue to actually listen and take the true sort of inspiration and work that you are doing forward. So, thank you very much. If you want to know more about DARE, then obviously you can find us on our website.

Rita Trehan: [00:47:22] But if you also want to find out about some of the work that we’ve been doing around inclusivity and why it’s not just about diversity, equity, and inclusion, but how you’re inclusive right across the board and to combine the profit with purpose, let’s move forward, then check it out on our website.

Rita Trehan: [00:47:38] Thanks very much for listening. If you liked it, then please make sure that you put some comments in and share the podcast. Because more people need to hear about what Amy doing and her organization, Good-Loop. Thanks very much.

Rita Trehan: [00:47:49] Thanks for listening. Enjoyed the conversation? Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes of Daring To. Also, check out our website, dareworldwide.com, for some great resources around business, in general, leadership, and how to bring about change. See you next time.