Damian McKinney With Stoli Group

Rita Trehan: [00:00:02] Welcome to Daring To, a podcast that finds out how CEOs and entrepreneurs navigate today’s business world, the conventions they’re breaking, the challenges they faced, and the decisions that they’ve made, and lastly, just what makes them different.

Rita Trehan: [00:00:19] Well, today is a real honor. I mean, I’m lucky enough to be interviewing Damian McKinney. He has a background in front of him, which is to do not only with the brand that he’s the CEO of, which is a vodka brand, so those of you that like vodka, make sure you do listen in, because there’s more to the brand than just the drink. And so, he’s the CEO of the Stoli Group. And behind him is a map, I guess, a very important sort of recognition of what’s going on in Ukraine.

Rita Trehan: [00:00:49] There is often a thought that when we think of vodka, we think of Russia. I’ve spent quite a lot of time in Ukraine myself in my former career and do like vodka, but yes, it does often think about Russia. And so, it’s quite an interesting time to be the CEO of a company where people might be misinformed about a brand’s origins and actually where it is today, so we are obviously going to talk about that.

Rita Trehan: [00:01:15] But actually, even more interesting, I think, is what you’re bringing to the CEO at this particular point in time, because your history isn’t really what I would call the traditional CEO route, is it, Damian? So, let’s start with that. Somebody that actually didn’t grow up in the UK, but like me, you probably don’t sound very American, but actually probably spend a lot of time in the US, but grew up in East Africa, is that right? And spent some time in Barbados. I think I want your life.

Rita Trehan: [00:01:48] Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, because it’s true, I think that early sort of childhood or early sort of experiences of going to, you’ve been really passionate right now about what’s going on in the world. It’s really important for CEOs to be making a stand on issues that go beyond their brand today, and you’re one of those kind of forefront. So you think that your early career, your early sort of childhood, and your influences around growing up globally has helped that experience?

Damian McKinney: [00:02:22] Rita, lovely to meet you and lovely to talk to you. Life is a full series of chapters, isn’t it? And so, your comment around shaping, there is no doubt. I was born in Kenya—I was born in Uganda, but I really grew up from the age of a-year-and-a-half in Kenya, just outside Nairobi, in a place called Limuru. And first of all, I’d say I look back and it was the most amazing childhood in many respects.

Damian McKinney: [00:02:56] I come from a single parent family as well, so it’s not all idyllic. There are some challenges there. But I think two things have always stood out in my mind. One is, in a sense, the geography and life. There is a lovely view in Kenya, which is every morning when the sun rises, particularly over the Rift Valley, and I’m sure you’ve seen movies, the colors are magnificent. I mean, it is just the smells, you just think, wow, life is amazing.

Damian McKinney: [00:03:29] And you look around you, and you have those big, lovely smiles that I remember as a child, and indeed, I’m going back in the summer, and I’ve been working there as well. So, you get this real sense of we could do anything. Then, as you go through the day, imagine this moment where you’re in the game reserve, and you see a pride of lions, and they look truly beautiful and magnificent, and they’re wandering around, but frankly, lazy. It’s a nice day.

Damian McKinney: [00:03:57] And then, behind them, not very far away, you’ll see the antelope, and the zebra, and the giraffe, and everybody is kind of minding their own business, and life is pretty good. And then, all of a sudden, the sort of the lion or lioness will stretch, and lick its mouth, and say, I feel a bit hungry. And then, there is this kind of madness of the chase. And then, there’s the violence, unfortunately, of the lion catching its prey.

Damian McKinney: [00:04:26] And then, the next minute is eating. And then, within minutes, life settles back down again. And then, at the end of the day, you get a beautiful sunset. And there’s this sense of, we used to call in Swahili, the story of Africa. These are the way things are, and you have to accept that that’s the world in which we live in. But the beauty about the sun setting is that it sets up for a sunrise the next morning, and therefore a chance of a better world and a better day.

Damian McKinney: [00:04:55] So, I think the first thing is I’d say I think I’ve grown up with this massive sense of optimism and this massive sense of belief in the world, understanding though a very practical, and that’s why I use my example of the lions, these things do happen. It’s number 1. The second thing about that, which has really, really stuck with me, is two words. One is respect and the other is explore. And I remember, again, as a very young—my brother was a year younger than me, but both of us were very young.

Damian McKinney: [00:05:28] I think I was six and he was five. And one of sort of the team on the farm, one day, this individual turned out, a lovely, old man, amazing man, and he had two sacks, two canvas sacks. And in one sack, he had a python snake. And he took it out, and said, “This is all about respect”, and he said, “When you’re on your way to market”, and you walk to market, typically, in bare feet, “If you see the python, it’s okay. Just walk around the python, don’t worry about it. Go to market. And when you come back in the dark, he’ll avoid you, you’ll avoid him, and everything’s okay.”

Damian McKinney: [00:06:11] And then, he took out of the other sack a cobra, and he said, “Now, this is different. You need to understand danger, you need to respect it. If you see this guy, then you need to take a very wide berth, and ideally, make sure you never come back near him again, because this one will bite”. And then, he didn’t say it, but what he then meant was respect, therefore, is listening to advice from people who’ve got the wisdom and that they represent the older ones. We live in a society where, to be honest, at times, the old people, ignore them, they don’t understand, we’re young, we know how to deal with the world.

Rita Trehan: [00:06:51] Seasoned. That’s the word I use to describe that, be seasoned.

Damian McKinney: [00:06:55] Yeah. And in that moment, I learned that respect. Now, the reason why I mentioned that, because that sets up my next chapter in my life as a Royal Marine Commando. But in a sense, those two words of respect, life, and enjoy it, respects danger, respect advice, but that once you understand all that, then this world is for you to explore and really push all the boundaries. So, in a sense, when it then came to what am I going to do with my life, there was this real sense of, I’d like to join the very best, I’d like to be part of this best.

Damian McKinney: [00:07:35] And I’d read a lot about the Royal Marine Commandos. They were an elite force, and I know in this world, you’ve got to be careful about the word elite, but elite represented the best of the best, of the best, and I thought I’d love to be part of that. And part of that is because, A, there’s a standard, but B, there’s a sense of performance, and can you live up to that level of performance, and can I deliver against that?

Damian McKinney: [00:07:58] So, I really want it. But here’s the second, like every youngster, I spent time going and looking at various different military and other occupations was a career drive. The thing that struck me about the Royal Marines was spending two days down at Commando Training Center at Lympstone, and I met some of the young officers who are going through commando training, and it is very, very intense as you’d expect. Night and day, they’re pushing you, they’re driving you, and so forth. I sat in the mess, met all these young officers, and you know what, there was one of them, there wasn’t a shadow of a doubt, or commentary, or other, that kind of throwaway comment that said, “I’m not sure why I’m here”.

Damian McKinney: [00:08:44] And these were individuals who’d only been in three months, let alone all the other, the instructors, those are full-timers. And I walked away clear that I wanted to join an organization where people really believed in the values, the DNA, and what they stood for, and that they were prepared to stand by very high standards and keep driving against those, but there was one extra little bit, which really impressed me, was it was not an officer exclusive training college now that we-

Rita Trehan: [00:09:17] Let’s talk a little bit about that. I’m just going to interrupt you for a minute there, actually, because the reason why is you’ve actually made like, I think, three really, really powerful statements that CEOs or potential CEOs of any business around the world should take note of. And the first is about this real sort of passion and belief in the DNA, and what it stands for and purpose. That’s never been more important. You see it just by what’s behind your background, right?

Rita Trehan: [00:09:47] Liberate Ukraine, Stand with Ukraine. I mean, the passion of the organization that says, we want to do something that’s bigger than us and help support that. So, that’s number 1. I think that’s a really important insight. The second that you say is around, but it wasn’t officer exclusive. This concept about that you mentioned earlier around in the explore and if you couple that with diversity, that understanding the differences, I think, really is important that you bring out, and that, I also think, is a very powerful message, so I encourage people to go back and listen to just your snippet of information.

Rita Trehan: [00:10:22] I will let you continue on it. But those two particularly, now, go back to the lion, the very first thing that you said when you were talking about the lion about kind of wake up, and you’re not quite sure what to do, and then like at the end of it, you see this glorious sunshine, but isn’t that a bit like being a CEO in some ways? You have all those high moments, then there’s really like stressful moments, but there’s something that makes you continue to do it.

Rita Trehan: [00:10:47] So, I think three really powerful nuggets, and we’re going to continue to talk about it, because a career in—I said like it was a really interesting career and you became a lieutenant colonel very early on. I mean, most people take a lot of time to get to that level. It didn’t take you that long. You’re clearly somebody that’s very, very passionate and I guess driven in some ways.

Rita Trehan: [00:11:18] So, tell me, like leaving, I mean, we’ll continue to talk about the army, but a business consultant, come on, like I was in the corporate world, and said, whatever I do next, it’s never going to be a business consultant, because all that business consultants do is that they’re not in there to like see what really happens. And then, I read that that’s kind of what you said, but here I am now as a business consultant eating my words, but tell me about that. Let’s talk about like your passion, your conviction, the things that you’ve talked about, the explore, what got you to be a business consultant? Come on.

Damian McKinney: [00:11:54] So, if I may, why did I become a business consultant? Well, because I loved being on operations and doing it for real in really simple terms. I joined the Royal Marine Commandos to go on operations and to participate. And I was fortunate enough, nobody will ever say they’re fortunate to go to war, but I was tested. Whether it was Northern Ireland, whether it was several years hunting down drug runners in Central America—drug lords, or whether it was the Gulf War, or subsequently, Bosnia, et cetera.

Damian McKinney: [00:12:30] I spent a lot of time on operations and actually wanting—because I love being on the front line. I love doing that. I think I was reasonably good, and in a way, what that points to, and if you were going to give advice to anybody, young people to start with, is do what you’re really passionate about. Your comment is exactly right. And I truly loved it. But why did I really love it? I just want to finish this point here, because it points, in a sense, the sort of organization that I would want to be part of, and therefore I’m CEO of today, which is an organization which is team-based in the first instance. I mean, I’m really talking about team.

Damian McKinney: [00:13:12] I’m talking about the diversity. People who join the Royal Marine Commandos, whether they join as a marine or as an officer, go through a selection. It is both physically demanding and mentally demanding. But what they’re looking for, and they often refer to it as a sort of 0.1%. They’re looking for people, frankly, from all backgrounds. I mean, it never ceases to amaze me how people came from, whether it was a grammar school, state school, or public school, came from the north, from the south, different, I mean, literally huge diversity, and yet we had a common view of life.

Damian McKinney: [00:13:51] And that common view of life was, number 1 was we wanted to be the best and perform at that level, but we wanted to do things that actually made a difference. So, just the idea of just going and doing an event, or participating in conflict for the sake of conflict, or otherwise, that was anathema, we want to know why we’re doing what we’re doing. So, there is this sort of concept of a just war in a way.

Damian McKinney: [00:14:18] We really were, the why was very important to us. But the second aspect of this team was it was led by people who were expected to, first of all, lead by example, and secondly, often, you had this term of servant leader, which was beautiful. So, at no time was anybody given any courtesy because they had the authority. They were given the courtesy because they had the responsibility. Very different.

Damian McKinney: [00:14:49] And the thing that shocked me most, if I sort of pivot across to the commercial world—I mean, by the way, I made the decision. I was a young, reasonably successful officer, who’d benefited because I was passionate. I had some amazing mentors who’d given me opportunities, and I think that’s a big thing. I look back at individuals who said, go on, why don’t you have a go at this? Why don’t you do this? Promoted in the field when I was in Iraq, just literally, suddenly, I was told, we’re promoting you.

Damian McKinney: [00:15:22] I think the conversation went along the lines of Colonel Graham Dunlop, who is the CF40 Commander, he said, “I’m under pressure to move and take over because this is such a big job. What do you think about that?” And I looked at him, and said, I can’t remember the exact language, but it was something like, no, leave me alone, because I would like to do this. And what was wonderful about him, and therefore many of the officers I served under, is they were secure leaders.

Damian McKinney: [00:15:47] So, they didn’t have egos. They didn’t have—so I’ll never forget that he said, “Okay, I thought that was the case. Go on, you do it. You could do this and be promoted.” So, I benefited from all of that. So, I literally, as a kind of 35-year-old, sat in a bar in Norfolk, Virginia, and just worked, just what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I love doing this, but I’ve been promoted quite quickly.

Damian McKinney: [00:16:11] I think I’ve got four more years of excitement, and then I’m probably going to end up very much sort of political leader in a big headquarters. That’s not to say that the generals don’t do a great job, but I never aspired to be a general. I just love the idea of being on operations. And I probably read too many Richard Branson-type books to think, well, wouldn’t it be great and cool to be an entrepreneur and be in business?

Damian McKinney: [00:16:36] So, that was it. I made a decision, I resigned the next day, and within six months, I was out, and I thought, well, I’ll be a consultant for a year focusing on business consulting, because I think I’ve designed strategies, and I’ve executed them, and so forth, and I had an initial business degree, and then I’ll get a real job. That was the plan. And then, six months in, I was working with a consulting, which at the time, I was finding very frustrating, because I couldn’t see the value that we were adding. Don’t forget, I come-

Rita Trehan: [00:17:10] Do you remember the thing that you said to them, because I did find that quite interesting the day you came out?

Damian McKinney: [00:17:15] Yeah. Well, I come from a very mission-orientated environment, and the comment was, you need to understand, it’s about a revenue stream, and I was shocked, I suppose, from a values perspective, but I thought the idea here was to deliver an effect. So, that was my sort of first warning bell. And then, the sort of second warning bell was there was a chap called Martin Akers, who was a director of corporate banking, who’s gone on to be a very good friend, but you knew you had these critical moments in your life where people give you advice.

Damian McKinney: [00:17:50] And I remember him saying, I was involved with the project and I remember him looking at me, and saying, “Damian, you look really frustrated. You look like something’s not right. You’re the sort of person who’s always smiling and happy.” I said, “You’re right.” I said, “I embarked on this new life thinking I’d be excited, we’d be entrepreneurial, we’d be taking the world on, and yet I’m bored.” And he said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Do you know what, it’s incremental.”

Damian McKinney: [00:18:17] I said, “Nobody is doing anything that’s really breakthrough. I hear all this, let’s be breakthrough, let’s break all, blah, blah, blah. But it’s all incremental. Frankly, you’re all stacking, making sure you’re delivering your bonuses. You’ve got a target of 7%. You’re at seven-and-a-half percent. There’s no risk. You’re all risk-averse”, et cetera. And you know what was amazing, he said to me, he said, “Damian, what do you think we could really do?”

Damian McKinney: [00:18:40] And I said, “Well, the first thing is, can we just start by saying, imagine what we could really deliver? Forget all this business as usual. Get a bunch of people together, and say, your team, and say, ‘Forget everything. What could we really achieve?'” And he said, “What do you think?” I said, “Well, you could at least do 18%.” And he said, “What, in a year?” I said, “No, in six months.” And he said, “Okay. Why don’t you work with me?”

Damian McKinney: [00:19:08] We did 32% increase in six months. And you know what, none of it’s complicated. Business is not complicated. Life’s not complicated. The first thing we did was put a stake in the ground, a bit like Kennedy’s, let’s put a man on the moon, and challenge ourselves, and say, wouldn’t it be great to achieve at least 18%? You’ve got to put that stake. And I find some of these statements which have no date in it as just dreams.

Damian McKinney: [00:19:33] No, we put it in. This was our commitment to ourselves. Secondly, it’s, okay, let’s work out a plan, because the second thing that—Royal Marines, they taught me so much. One of the big things they teach you is, frankly, you could be the fittest, strongest person in the world, and then get shot in the first 2 minutes, because you’re daft, you don’t think. So, the most powerful weapon you have is your brain, is your ability to not only think, but secondly, link all the other teammates together, and create a supercomputer.

Damian McKinney: [00:20:03] So, in that particular case, let’s really think through, what is our plan? What could we really achieve? Then, agree how we’re going to work basically, or culture. So, get a team together. You share a common culture, common way of working, you have a common destination, and you’re very clear on how you’re going to get there, because you worked it through together, and then just get on with it, track it, and inevitably, things are going to go wrong.

Damian McKinney: [00:20:28] We used to talk about no plan survives first contact with the enemy or that first bullet that flies. It all changes. It does change with the mission, doesn’t it? You adapt, you’re very dynamic. And again, how do we do that in business? We achieved 32%. Now, what that then led to was Martin saying, “Damian, why don’t you do this for real?” And that was the moment where I thought, okay, I’m going to set up a consultancy with a friend at the time and we’re going to set off.

Damian McKinney: [00:20:59] And I remember, literally, the May 1999, where we set off, somebody said to me, what’s your future? And I said, in 10 years’ time, we’ll be a truly global company and we’ll have offices around the world, and I’m bald, in those days, I had some hair. And I’m sure people—they kept patting me on the head and I’m sure that’s probably why I lost all my hair in the end, because people kept saying, yes, yes, good idea, but you’re never going to achieve it. It was obvious. But 10 years later, we did. We had offices all around the world. We had established a pretty good reputation. And I sold it four years ago to an American-listed company as a global company.

Rita Trehan: [00:21:42] And I mean, that successful career has continued. You became the CEO. You worked with Diageo. In fact, you took a whiskey brand, exactly one of my dad’s favorites, but it wasn’t performing very well, but if you know Indian community as well, you’ll know that Johnnie Walker, particularly Johnnie Walker Black Label, is one of their favorite whiskeys. My dad at 89, still one of his. You kind of turned that brand around.

Rita Trehan: [00:22:09] You’re now obviously with Stoli, and you were brought in. I’m going to ask you, like all the things that you’ve talked about right now, and there is a lot of, let’s just say like it’s probably a bit more than lip service, but people have been canceling out brands today in a heartbeat, because they are more driven about wanting to be associated with what they buy, and who they buy from, and what companies stand for.

Rita Trehan: [00:22:39] I mean, with the company that you’ve got right now, and it must have been very hard for the people, like we’ve seen a lot of people sort of react, obviously, to associations with Russia, the mindset that goes, well, this is a vodka, it must be Russian, therefore, like—you took a very bold decision, right? I mean, that’s a pretty massive decision that most CEOs, as you set—I won’t say most, many CEOs, I wouldn’t want to give up that comfort. I mean, rebrand, rebrand it.

Rita Trehan: [00:23:15] Like get clear about what you stand for, going out. And I think today or yesterday, you launched a commemorative bottle that really symbolized in the colors of Ukraine to really sort of recognize how supportive, and the money is going towards helping support people within Ukraine. I mean, I can’t even imagine what potential shareholders, investors, or the community at large would have had many different diverse opinions about, is this really a good idea?

Rita Trehan: [00:23:42] Should you really be putting yourself on the precipice? Yes, we want to say we’re supportive, but let’s be really careful about what we say and how we say. That doesn’t strike me as the kind of direction that you would take. I mean, it’s clear from what we can see behind us. But tell me what it’s been like for the company over the last several months, the last few months?

Damian McKinney: [00:24:01] Yeah. No, Rita, look, it’s a great point. And in a sense, and thank you for asking the question you asked earlier on, because we learn from our past. We definitely do. It shapes us. And in a sense, you get a chance. So, I feel a bit light with Stoli that I was given a chance in October 2020 by Yuri Shefler to take all of that, and how do you now transform an amazing company, an amazing brand into something really great?

Damian McKinney: [00:24:30] And in the first instance, the thing that I’ve—I’ve learned lots of things, but here’s another thought, which is, and to your point, there is a tension, people call that balance. I don’t think it’s a balance, because the trouble with the balance is you could unbalance it and make all the excuses, right? There is a tension and the balance is to maintain that tension. You can’t let any side down. And the tension is simple.

Damian McKinney: [00:24:54] How do I create a really well-performing business, generating profits and cash, because that’s the oxygen for further growth, and for your people and everything else, whilst, at the same time, doing it in the right way, in a good way, where you’re really making a difference? And many people refer to that right-hand side of the balance, what I call the tension in my case, is what many companies call corporate social responsibility, the life of corporate, sustainability, et cetera.

Damian McKinney: [00:25:28] And over the years, I’ve had many CEOs make grandiose speeches, but when it really comes down to it, and I think I mentioned this to somebody the other day, it’s a bit like soldiering. It’s really easy when it’s nice, warm weather to tell everybody how brave you are and how you would respond, to 3:00 in the morning when you’re freezing cold, and tired, and frightened, and everything else, it’s not quite the same. It really does.

Damian McKinney: [00:25:53] You’ve got to dig very, very deep in those situations. But you’ve got to better do it. You’ve got to better do it in order to deliver the mission. So, for me, when I started with the company, it was very clear that here was a company with a brand, frankly, I refer to as Sleeping Beauty. It was a company that, at early stages, when it was first acquired, had some greatness, but frankly, it declined. And what was it about this company?

Damian McKinney: [00:26:21] One, we lost sight of where we’re going. Human beings are pretty simple. Just tell me where we’re going. And that gives me some confidence, because at least, I can visualize it. We didn’t have that, is the honest truth. We didn’t really have a plan. So, that was easy. In a way, they were the easy bits. I think the Kennedy Congress speech in ’61 is not just the words, but it’s the fact that he said, in order for the United States and the nation now to feel more confidence, we need to give ourselves a challenge.

Damian McKinney: [00:26:50] That’s ultimately what a vision is. It’s a challenge to create confidence. So, that’s all I did. But the second then is you better have the right team on board with the right values. And for me, and I think it’s about getting capability. So, I had some great people in the past, and there have been great people in this company, so I don’t want to denigrate them in any shape or form. However, today, in the moment, I needed a team that was capable of winning the World Cup. I use the soccer analogy.

Rita Trehan: [00:27:22] Yeah, I always do that well.

Damian McKinney: [00:27:24] I’m not a soccer player, but if you want to be in the World Cup or you want to be in the Olympics, somebody said to me the other day, the Olympics is real. You don’t go there to experience the Olympics. It’s real, and it’s raw, and it’s competition. And therefore, when I looked at my team, I had a lot of Third XI, but nice people, but they were Third XI. They weren’t First XI. So, capability is really important.

Damian McKinney: [00:27:46] But the second piece in that tension is you need the most capable people, but I use the word care. I often said to people in an interview, and they looked at me strangely, and I’d say, but do you really care? Do you really care about the planet? Do you really care about this sustainability rubbish? Do you really care? I kind of played it like that. Do you really care about the team at the end of the day? Is it surely about you?

Damian McKinney: [00:28:11] You know what, there’s many—by the way, they’re not bad people. It’s just they decide, but no, you’re right, I don’t really at the end of the day, they make comments like that. And I was very honest, and said, yeah, but I’m looking for that 1%. I’m looking for people who really, really care, because it’s difficult. It’s really, really difficult.

Damian McKinney: [00:28:27] But if we’re truly going to make a difference and we’re truly going to be the company that we could be, then we need everybody really, really caring, because we’re going to make calls. So, we went to that stage. Now, in our first year, I think we did 38% growth and it’s going fine. We changed a lot of people, and a lot of people said, “You can’t keep changing people, Damian.” At this point, I kept saying, “I’m going to, I’ll change 100%.”

Rita Trehan: [00:28:52] Very brave. Good for you/

Damian McKinney: [00:28:54] “I need the right people.” But by the way, the one thing I really understood is if you get the right people, you can parachute them into the middle of the jungle and they can operate straight away. So, I’ve known that, again, back to our military. So, don’t worry, just be bold and go for it. Now, all of a sudden, imagine this little kind of PowerPoint stuff, then all of a sudden, on 24th of February, bang, there’s an invasion.

Damian McKinney: [00:29:17] Now, to be honest, most people knew it was coming. We may have gone into denial, but the fact is it was coming. And we definitely spent a little bit of time looking at it, thinking about it. But for me, on the 24th of February, when I walked across the office, and I’d had a conversation with my wife before this, and I said, look, I’m going to speak to the founder, I call him Yuri Shefler. He’s our kind of Steve Jobs of Stoli. He’s an amazing individual.

Damian McKinney: [00:29:44] And I said, I’m going to speak to him. Now, I know, and every conversation I ever had is he stands absolutely against Putin. But you know what, this is the moment. This really, really is the moment. And if there is any shadow of doubt in what he says, then I will resign. There’s no debate in my mind, because this is a moment where I’ve stood up long enough, we’ve all, as a team, stood up, and said that this is the moment, we now need to be starting to be counted.

Damian McKinney: [00:30:13] And frankly, when I spoke to him, he was even more vehement than I was, because I know he’s been fighting and he’s personally been involved at a very personal cost at times. And then, when I spoke to the broader team, we go to the town hall, there was zero debate because we brought those people together, really care. There was zero debate around us unequivocally standing against this invasion, and standing for Ukraine, and standing for these amazing human beings.

Damian McKinney: [00:30:38] So, in a way, as a CEO, whilst it may seem like a really tough decision to make, it actually was a really easy decision, because we’d already created, I’d suggest, the foundations for that decision to be made in the first place. Is there a cost when you make decisions like that? There’s always a cost, but there’s an upside. And here’s one other, I’m probably sort of full of stories, I apologize, but one of the things I learned very, very early on and continue to be repeated through my military career was there’s always the right decision.

Damian McKinney: [00:31:16] It’s a question of whether you’re prepared to make the right decision. And quite often, making the right decision has a cost, and a cost could be in morale. It could be financially. It could be a whole bunch of things. But at the end of the day, if ever you steer away from that, then you will end up—it will end up costing you later on. And if I just give you one, it’s a crazy example, but I’ll give you one.

Damian McKinney: [00:31:43] At the age of 13, I started a new school. It was a boarding school. And I remember turning to my year, and saying, look, we were all talking about how awful it was that the 18-year-olds were allowed to walk around in non-uniform on a Sunday and we had to wear uniform. Probably, many people kind of think about that conversation. Anyway, there we are, five years later, we are now the 18-year-olds, and I remember turning to the same group of people, and saying, this is our moment, we’re going to change it, we can change the world, we’re in a position now, we can do this.

Damian McKinney: [00:32:16] And you know what, they all said, all of them said, but it’s different, we didn’t understand. And so, one is kind of the sense of privilege, and it’s different because we want to enjoy this. And by the way, it’s too difficult a decision to make, et cetera. And I remember saying, we said it was wrong then, so why is it right now? It’s still wrong. And anyway, we managed to change it. But I’ve had moments like that through my life, and for me, this was one of those, and I did have a couple of other CEOs phone me up, and said, “Damian, look, I know you’re a relatively new CEO in this industry, but you know, there are implications to what you’re saying, for all of us, but let alone for you in business.” And I said, “No.”

Rita Trehan: [00:33:01] A massive kudos, I would say. Massive, massive kudos for you, and for the organization, and for everybody that’s—that ecosystem that around it, the stakeholders, the people that go out, and drink it, and buy it, and hopefully, they’re going out more so than ever now that I’m doing it obviously carefully, but contributing to where particularly this release of the bottle that you’ve done will go to. I think your comments are just so important right now at this point in time.

Rita Trehan: [00:33:32] Particularly, post-COVID, post-what we’re seeing around the world, we’re seeing right now as we go into the US, proxy season is hitting, we’re seeing shareholder and investors like going, we’re a bit tired of this box-ticking stuff that you guys do, like the sort of the rhetoric, like give us like the real deal if you really believe in this stuff, which you guys are showing in terms of like, you say you’re very purpose-driven, you say you’re very diverse, you say that you’re very into ESG, but are you really?

Rita Trehan: [00:34:03] And it’s voices like yours that we need to see and hear more of. And I think the lessons, the stories that you’ve actually shared are extremely powerful for people in executive positions today and even those seeking to be in those executive positions, because it’s a lonely position to be. And let’s not sugarcoat it and say like it’s great, look, you get all this money, and all the rest of it, and like all this glory, it’s actually quite lonely, isn’t it, at times?

Damian McKinney: [00:34:34] Of course, it is. You’re absolutely right. But it’s only as lonely as you want it to be. In terms of—again, lots of thoughts running through my head, and I’ll give you a couple. Number 1 is when I was doing the anti-narcotics work, I said to my wife, “Look, I don’t think I’ll ever get shot, because I’ve got this bizarre view that most people can’t shoot, so I should be okay, but I’m probably going to get set up, because I keep catching big people, and actually, the end of the day, no smoke without fire, they could slip it into my suitcase when I’m traveling and so forth, so I’m probably going to get set up.”

Damian McKinney: [00:35:15] So, I said to her, “So, look, don’t worry if I end up in jail somewhere, because as long as the Red Cross parcels keep coming through, I’ll be all right.” And she said, “Well, why?” And I said, “Because there are two jails. There’s a jail in your head, and then there’s the physical jail. The physical jail doesn’t worry me. It doesn’t worry me, because I’m not in jail in my head, and that, it’s your conscience that is really important.”

Damian McKinney: [00:35:42] And the reason I say that, therefore, is, look, I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life. I genuinely have. And I regret those. And I’ve hopefully learned by them. And I’m a series of sort of hopefully, incrementally getting better, and I’m still trying to do that. I think the same is with us, as a company, we’re on a journey, we’re trying to embrace sustainability and so forth. But if I give you the example of LGBTQ+, we’ve been very active in this for a long time. We’ve got a fantastic global ambassador in Patrick.

Damian McKinney: [00:36:18] But my challenge to him and the rest of the team is, please, please don’t tell me that we’re doing everything we can by simply putting a label on a bottle and putting Harvey Milk on it. I said, That’s bad. I said, that’s not doing nearly. I’ve got to look at my own conscience, and I’ve got to be able to say, what am I really doing? What difference do I really make? The honest truth is I’m not sure. I don’t think I am really.

Damian McKinney: [00:36:44] And that’s really driven us to dig deeper, and say, what are we doing about it? And in a way, with the Ukraine situation, it was one thing to make a decision, but the question is, so what are you going to do about it? And that was why the very first instance, there were two very clear agendas. Number 1 is people, what are we doing about our people? I’m talking about our own employees. We had people on the ground who had families.

Damian McKinney: [00:37:13] What were we doing to at least get them out of harm’s way or at least support them in any shape or form, particularly those who are staying behind? What are we doing for our partners, our suppliers, and others on the ground? So, there was a whole agenda to do that. And then, the other part of it is, because I was involved in a refugee situation, I’ve seen the trauma of refugees who frankly have lost everything, everything.

Damian McKinney: [00:37:35] What are we doing to help them? And this is winter, by the way, and therefore, for me, trying to find the right partner, and it needed to be not just what I call satisfaction charity, where you hand over, you put your money in, and you walk away patting yourself on the back, and say, really wonderful, what are we doing to really help? And that’s why I love Jose Andres and the World Central Kitchen, because the way in which he does it, he thinks about nutrition, rather than just handing food over. He thinks about nutrition in the sense of morale as well as wellbeing, but he also thinks about the people providing it.

Damian McKinney: [00:38:12] So, what he’ll do is he’ll go to restaurateurs, who, by the way, don’t have a restaurant anymore, he’ll go to people, to supplies, and by the way, somehow, farmers always seem to just keep producing, and what he’ll do is he’ll pay them to actually provide. So, he’s maintaining one, their self esteem, and two, a market economy. So, he’s doing it in a very independent rather than dependent way. So, for me, that was a really big piece of helping the sort of people side of it. The other side of it was how do we keep, in a sense, Ukraine on the agenda, and how do we continue to support?

Damian McKinney: [00:38:48] And that’s what really, literally, I think it was—the invasion was on the Thursday, on the Sunday, I spoke to Tim, because I’m at a global innovation, said, Tim, can we get a bottle out within the next three weeks, where one, we obviously provide money to World Central Kitchen and support, but two, we also do it in a way which will keep the flag flying, because we also know that very quickly, it’ll be page three of the newspapers.

Damian McKinney: [00:39:14] Nothing will have changed fundamentally. People are still being bombed and killed as well. When we’re not careful, it goes off the agenda. We have a human responsibility to keep it that. So, absolutely that’s why we drove this. And then, frankly, the rebranding was an organic decision. The team and the rest us said, look, we need to put a bit of distance between us and Putin. Not the Russian people, and I’ve said that many, many times. I’ve got some lovely Russian friends.

Damian McKinney: [00:39:43] Our recipe for what I believe is truly best vodka in the world, I’m not going to give that up. In no way I’d ask anybody to give up their families, and where they come from, and what they stood for. Never. But what we can’t do is have any association with Putin, and his henchmen, and so forth. So, for me, it was very simple, with a founder decision, and with the rest of team, which was, let’s just take off the chnaya, let’s make it really clear and simple what we stand for and who we are, hence the rebranding against Stoli.

Rita Trehan: [00:40:13] Damian, I mean, I don’t know what to tell you, that so much like just warms my heart to hear of CEOs with the vision and the passion, and actually, the boldness and courage that you have, and showing servant leadership as it truly is. So, I hope that this goes viral, because this is one of the best, I think, of CEOs, potential CEOs, entrepreneurs, young, old, seasoned, whatever we want to call ourselves, to really listen to.

Rita Trehan: [00:40:42] And I will say it’s something I’ve learned from living in the US, which we haven’t tended to do in the UK, which is to say thank you for your service, because that is important. It’s always struck me how people in the US do thank people that have served in the forces in some way, because that’s a very important role. I would love to continue this conversation, we may get you back on to talk about loads of other things.

Rita Trehan: [00:41:09] There’s so much you could add and have got loads of other things that you should be doing. Like if you haven’t written a book, make sure you write one soon. But before you go, if people want to know more about Stoli, about what you’re doing, and as an organization, if they want to know more about you and about some of the efforts, what’s the best way they can get in contact with you?

Damian McKinney: [00:41:29] Well, two things. Just go to Stoli website. One of the thing is it’s all on there. I’ve made sure that we’ve sort of updated it all the way through. So, happily do that. And then, secondly, through the website, or frankly, through LinkedIn, just connect. I think, I’ll have alluded to, I’m the world’s luckiest person. I’ve had amazing people in the past who have tapped me on the shoulder and give me advice as I’ve gone along. I’m always happy to share and I wish everybody the very best of luck at their own endeavors, but please, please, let’s make this a better world.

Rita Trehan: [00:42:05] Yeah, hear, hear.

Damian McKinney: [00:42:05] And if I may say, the tragedy of Ukraine, sometimes, out of tragedy, the sun will emerge. And I’ve certainly reflected, I hope most people have reflected on, what does it take, particularly as leaders, and you’re focusing on CEOs, this is your moment, let’s not wait for governments to put sanctions on, and other people, politicians, to tell us what to do. We have the opportunity. We. If we behave in the right way and we deal with that tension in the right way, we have the opportunity to make this world an amazing place. That’s exciting.

Rita Trehan: [00:42:48] I’m speechless. It’s a great way to end. Thank you so much for giving up your time today. I know how busy you are and how much the company is doing, so we really appreciate you being on the show. Thank you very much.

Damian McKinney: [00:42:59] Thanks, Rita. Thank you. Lovely to meet you.

Rita Trehan: [00:43:01] Thanks for listening. Enjoy the conversation. Make sure you subscribe, so you don’t miss out on future episodes of Daring To. Also, check out our website, dareworldwide.com, for some great resources around business in general, leadership, and how to bring about change. See you next time.