Nick Smith with StageDive

Intro: [00:00:07] Coming to you live from the Business RadioX Studio in Woodstock, Georgia. This is fearless formula with Sharon Cline.

Sharon Cline: [00:00:17] Welcome to Fearless Formula on Business RadioX, where we talk about the ups and downs of the business world and offer words of wisdom for business success. I’m your host, Sharon Cline, and I haven’t been here in like a month. I’ve been I’ve been sick for a while, but I am so happy to be back and have missed my fearless Formula Fridays. And I’m so happy to have in the studio the co-creator of StageDive, a new streaming platform that is being created to change the music industry not just for musicians, but for content creators as well. Please welcome to the studio, Nick Smith.

Nick Smith: [00:00:49] Hey, how are you doing?

Sharon Cline: [00:00:50] I’m good. How are you?

Nick Smith: [00:00:51] I’m good. Thank you for having me on the show. This is awesome.

Sharon Cline: [00:00:53] Thank you. I’m so happy to have you in, because I. What I love about what you’re doing is that you are a champion for the little guys in the industry and the people who don’t have corporate power behind them. So if you could give an explanation of what stage dive is, I’d love it. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:01:08] Of course. So like you just said, it’s built for the little guys. That’s actually exactly who it’s built for is the little guys. Um, we want to appeal to everyone, but, you know, strip it down to its most basic thing. We’re a streaming platform. So the same way something like, you know, a Spotify or, you know, even YouTube to an extent, like I know their videos, but they’re still just a streamer. Um, content creators just upload their, their stuff there. And that’s really the way music, podcasting, everything is listened to. I think most of the time now, you know, like now it’s it’s rare that you go and buy a physical copy of a CD or something. You know, exactly. Most of the time you are going to stream it from whatever’s the most convenient for you. I think, you know, Spotify is kind of king right now in terms of just convenience. Um, but the truth of it is, and and honestly, most people don’t even know this. What artists get paid out on it is really, really hard. Um, you just don’t get paid very well on streaming platforms. And it’s, you know, the, uh, the music industry has changed a lot over the years. And, you know, one of the things that you see is just you get paid terribly and it’s kind of for the reason of, well, you’re able to be everywhere all the time now, which is true. Like, I don’t want to just come in and just dogging, streaming immediately. We’re literally building a streaming platform. So there is, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of great sides to it. And part of that is that, you know, back in the day, you had to try really hard to go, you know, be, um, be noticed in a club somewhere and then go on tour, probably yourself, like, you know, self-fund tours and just try to get everybody’s attention and hope that a record label would sign you.

Nick Smith: [00:02:47] And that’s a big hope also, that a record label would sign you. And then if they did, you know, you have to hope that it’s not one of those, you know, horror stories that we’ve heard of, like Def Leppard, where these Sharkey, you know, um, deals that you get, where you don’t actually own your own music or anything like that, and then, you know, you just you have to hope for the best that way. And now you can be completely independent. You can do it yourself. You can learn to be an audio engineer online. You can do all these things. And it makes it really, really convenient and possible. And that’s that’s a big word. It makes it possible for, um, just an average musician to learn to do this themselves and put this out themselves. The flip side of that is you’re not in competition with your local town anymore to get noticed. You’re in competition with literally the entire planet. Everyone is able to do it themselves, and that’s awesome. That also puts you like you are now a small fish in an extremely large pond. And um, so I think, you know, the way streaming was kind of built where it’s done with this intention of like, people can stream you so much more easily than they could in the past. It’s a little bit of a double edged sword, that’s true. But because of the the payouts being what they are, it makes it really hard to actually make a living doing it.

Sharon Cline: [00:04:07] Totally makes sense when you consider I mean, I had an album back in the day that was on that I had made through CD baby, and, uh, this is a long time ago, and I still will get a check maybe every couple of years for like $30, you know, and I’ll be like, oh my, that was like 0.00 $0.02 for like one person listening, you know, to a couple different tracks. So it’s like very little money. It’s not actually I would never even do it for the money. You know, you have to do it because you love it and then hope that that big things come. But what I’m wondering is, do you find that the artists that are are fighting to get notice that their, their craft has to be pretty stellar in order to compete?

Nick Smith: [00:04:49] Yeah. I mean, and that’s all subjective too, because people there’s, there’s bands that you will love that someone else will hate. You know, some of my favorite bands are not like super well known. And they’re people, you know, people just don’t like them. And then there’s also some of the biggest artists in the world I just I can’t get into.

Sharon Cline: [00:05:04] So true. I’m the exact same.

Nick Smith: [00:05:05] So, you know something like that. It’s it’s subjective. But yeah, you know, like you have to you have to find some angle to, to get noticed. And again, you know, it’s great that now you can do all of that yourself. But it’s also it’s hard to ask someone that, you know, I think of myself when I first picked up a guitar and did it because I wanted to be on stage and I wanted to be, you know, Eddie Van Halen somewhere and like, you know, just I just I wanted to to just be cool on stage, like, that’s what I wanted as a little kid. And, you know, you pick up a guitar for something like that. Now you kind of also have to wear the hat of being the audio engineer and a marketing director for yourself and videographer. Videographer make your own merch. Like there’s a lot of stuff you have to do that. Sorry. I know back in the day you would kind of look to a label to do a lot of those things, and now, you know, you’re able to do it all yourself, but you kind of have to do it all yourself now. And not everyone is wanting to do that. Not everyone is built to do that either.

Nick Smith: [00:06:06] There’s a there’s a lot of people that make incredible music that are terrible at marketing. And, you know, there’s always a band like which this is not new. There’s everyone can think of a band that was phenomenal, that just never made it. And they were never going to because they didn’t know how to, uh, how to kind of harness whatever it was to get out on the road or to market themselves the right way or to like, you know, they might have written an awesome song, but they never had a chance to actually get into a studio. They were they were never able to, like, just get it together, you know? And there’s a lot of those people. And just because you’re not a marketing director doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to get paid for what you’ve done. Now those people are gonna, you know, cream rise to the top. Those people are going to do better, probably because they’re putting all that work in. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s great. Good for every single one of those people that’s able to do that. I champion every one of them. But that’s not everyone. And everyone else does deserve to still get something for their time.

Sharon Cline: [00:07:06] I agree with that. And some of the best artists I’ve ever heard are ones that I’ve never heard of and just happened to come in through, like a playlist that someone made sure that I happened to find on Apple Music or whatever in a streaming way. So it is wonderful. It’s like beautiful music, well crafted, well written that just doesn’t have the big Columbia label behind it or whatever. So what I what I love, though, is what you’re talking about is giving a space for someone who whose passion is to create music and create content, even if they are able to go and perform live, which I’m sure is all part of it as well. You know, be Eddie Van Halen on a stage somewhere. But still, to be able to to have that second part of it, which is being able to have access to the whole world by being able to stream and and like you said, being an engineer. And I find that many people who have such a great skill in music may not have the interpersonal skills that balance it, but that doesn’t take away from the talent that they have, right? Yeah, it just means they can’t wear all the hats. I can’t either. So I mean.

Nick Smith: [00:08:12] And it is a lot to ask, you know, it is, it is. And for the people that can do it, that’s awesome. And yeah.

Sharon Cline: [00:08:16] Wonderful.

Nick Smith: [00:08:17] All right. That’s that’s great. But it’s just it’s not everyone. Um, and you know, I had mentioned like, back in the day, you hoped to get a record deal, and you hope that it’s not one of these, like, kind of predatory deals that you hear about a lot. You know, you hear a lot of the horror stories, especially around that time, you know, like the kind of like 70s and the 80s where a lot of the bands that you think of, you know, Def Leppard and Motley Crue and that kind of era of bands, they got kind of a raw deal where, yes, you do get to live your dream of touring all over the world, of being on stage, and everyone knows who you are and, you know, um, that that’s that’s great. But they don’t own a lot of the music. And I know at one. Def Leppard was considering rerecording everything they had ever done. Which that also is next to impossible to, you know, you can’t replicate exactly what you did back in the 70s, in 2015, or whatever it is that they were talking about doing it and have it sound exactly the same. Especially, you know, you’re older, your voice doesn’t sound the same and all that. But they were thinking about doing that because they didn’t actually own their music. The label owned their music, and so they were making pennies for all of these classics that we hear on the radio all the time. And so their money was all coming from t shirt sales. That’s how they were staying relevant touring. And yeah, but I mean, even tickets with that, like they weren’t making a lot of money because in their deal their label got a lot of those ticket sales. So it was mostly t shirts as how Def Leppard was able to to stay relevant. And that’s crazy that they’re a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame band that’s, you know, that’s broke.

Sharon Cline: [00:09:47] I think about Taylor Swift, who did the same thing. He did all of her music because Scooter Braun owned her music. And so she’s like, that’s it. I’m going to make it all new for me for sure.

Nick Smith: [00:09:56] Well, and you see, you know how much she’s exploded. I really think that’s part of the reason why she exploded the way she did is that that kind of became such a big deal, um, publicly, that she did all of that and kind of just took it into her own hands. And I think people resonate with that.

Sharon Cline: [00:10:12] They do. When you’re talking about the fact that artists don’t have control so much over their material, that’s what you’re trying to combat or you’re trying to provide the service of with stage dive, allowing them to control where their content goes and and profit from it directly. So imagine that I’m an artist and I’m signing up with Stage Dive. What could I expect?

Nick Smith: [00:10:35] Sure. So, um, real quick to kind of a long way of answering that. Yeah, I have some notes. I do kind of want to break down what the actual payout looks like on, you know, the streaming platforms that are out right now versus how we the reason that we that we built things the way that we did. So. Just to, uh, to put it into perspective. So for a single stream, YouTube pays out 0.0006 $0.09 for a single stream. Um. Spotify pays out 0.00437. Apple is 00735. So on a million streams on YouTube, you make $690. Wow. On Spotify, you’ll make just over $4,000. And on Apple you’ll make just over $7,000. But Apple has kind of fallen off a lot with, you know, really just taking away a lot of the convenience that they had before. So they’re really not the best. Um, you do make a little bit more through Apple, but they’ve kind of just. Fallen by the wayside a little bit. So like I said, Spotify is kind of king right now. And so they’re the easiest one to compare to. And a million streams is $4,000. That’s. Look, $4,000 is a lot of money in your pocket just for the average person. But a million streams is a hard, hard number to achieve. Um, if like, you know, again, if you are not a massive touring artist, if you’re just the guy who’s busting his ass playing in a bar that is really, really trying to make it, and you’re putting out music and you’re trying really hard, you’re out there selling t shirts, you’re self-funding a tour, you’re doing everything that we talked about.

Nick Smith: [00:12:14] Million streams is a hard number to reach. Um, especially because, you know, they’re they’re an ad based platform. That’s how they make their money, which means you put Taylor Swift face on an ad you’re that’s going to sell. Everyone knows who that is. And her fan base is enormous. If you put my face on an ad, nobody cares. Nobody knows who I am, you know? Um, so it’s not. That’s not really built for that either, because realistically, it’s just an algorithm. It’s not. It’s not picking and choosing. I don’t like your music. I do like their music. It’s just looking at it and saying, you’re not making us money. You are in our way. Um, what’s making us money is whoever the biggest in whatever genre it is. So again, people like Taylor Swift and, you know, on the on the other side, you know, a band like Metallica, if you’re a rock band, like their put their face on an ad, it’s going to sell. Well. If your face isn’t going on an ad, you’re kind of getting lost in that algorithm. You’re not. Not only are you not being promoted, you’re kind of being pushed down because you’re in the way actively. Um, so a million streams, you’re not just competing with everyone to get a million streams, you’re competing to just stay above water, to hope for a million streams. Um. So with stage dive, we are we don’t we don’t have a free version. So we’re a paid version. And 3.99 is what it costs. And we tried to keep it as cheap as possible.

Nick Smith: [00:13:38] Um, just to make it accessible for everyone. So 50% goes to the company and that’s what gets, you know, reinvested into our marketing and, you know, paying out employees or whatever. The other 50% goes directly to the artists. And instead of paying out per stream, we pay out, um, broken down by time. So that’s the other part of being an ad based platform is we also have no ads, by the way. So we’re not doing any, any ads because that is infuriating to everyone. Um, but it also helps keep us honest, because when you’re an ad based platform, um, the money goes to the people that are selling those advertisements. So it’s kind of trickled down to everybody else. So whoever you listen to doesn’t matter who it is. Your favorite band that maybe, like you said, you found through a playlist that, um, that isn’t, you know, a super big artist. They’re just someone that you found you really like when you support them on Spotify or Apple or any of these platforms, your money doesn’t actually go to them. If you have like a, you know, like the paid version of whatever, it goes to whoever’s at the top, and then eventually they’ll get a little bit, you know, and that’s where you get this .00, whatever number. Um, that’s the reason it’s, you know, less than a quarter of a penny for a stream seems because, you know, the $11 that you’re paying is going to Taylor Swift first. Even if, you know, even if you actively don’t like her, which, you know, nothing against her, but she’s just the biggest artist today.

Nick Smith: [00:15:06] So it’s easy, even if you don’t like her, that’s where your money goes. So by breaking it down by time, it’s it’s like a pie chart, right? So if you have three bands that you listen to this month, you’re, you know, $2 that goes to them. Um, if you listen to one band 50% of the time and one band, you know, 35% of the time or whatever, that 50% of that money goes to that band that you listen to, 35 goes to the other band like it’s broken down exactly by who you’re listening to the most, because it’s not really fair. Not everyone, you know, you you’ve been sick. You said so. You haven’t been here recording in a month. So you probably also haven’t been driving around as much as you normally would. So if you’re not driving around, you might not be listening to music as much as you normally do. But that doesn’t mean that if you’re in the car and you listen to those bands that you like and you want to support, you’re still paying the same amount of money. So if you’re listening to that band 50% of the time, it’s still 50% of your money that you would expect to go to them. So we want it to be very transparent, you know, like this is what you’re paying and for what you’re paying. This is who you chose to support, so it should go directly to them. There is no third party that it goes to first. It goes directly to who you are choosing to support because that’s the way it should be.

Sharon Cline: [00:16:23] It does keep you honest. It keeps the band. Also, it’s got some statistics behind it so the band can see, or the artist or the podcaster can see how successful they’re being as well, which is important information to have, which is their most, most streamed or listened to song is super important as well. I’m thinking about how you created this whole platform. What was the how did it get started for you?

Nick Smith: [00:16:48] Right. So I have to give all the credit to, uh, to John Bruce. So he’s the one that started, uh, he’s the one that had this idea, put the team together and started all this stuff. And actually, oddly enough, um, so growing up, you know, uh, my dad and I would play Call of Duty online with, with people just all over, you know, and, uh, and you find people on there that you end up playing with more and they kind of become like your friends online or that.

Sharon Cline: [00:17:13] Like, for years. You can be friends with people you’ve never been in the same room with.

Nick Smith: [00:17:16] So my dad is also in a band. He’s also a musician. He plays bass. And that’s part of what got me, you know, interested in music and everything. Young. And he was playing online with someone that said, hey, I know a guy and I know you’re in a band. He’s starting this streaming platform idea thing. It sounds cool. You should talk to him. And so he put him in touch with, uh, with John. And I have a, uh, a media company. That’s that’s a very small startup. It’s, you know, it’s very, very small. It’s not, you know, we’re not a big company, but, um, it was built for this exact same reason, though. I was trying to do this kind of my own way and helping people to produce podcasts and produce music and music videos and things like that.

Sharon Cline: [00:17:58] Control it. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:17:59] And that kind of became our tagline is we don’t own you, you know, and was trying to build something grassroots that way. And, um, you know, you and I were put in contact through Zach Goodfellow, who was also on your show and means that go back a long way. Uh, we’ve been friends since middle school, you know? And so, uh, my wife and I did a podcast together that, uh, we don’t do anymore. But when, um, when we had our baby, she kind of took some time off from the podcast. And so I just had guest hosts come in and just kind of hang out with me. And Zach was one of them. And so we were talking about Sage Media, which is my media company. And, you know, he said something that I love and I kind of carried with me, which is, um, he liked what we were trying to do because there’s this idea that, um, there’s not enough room at the table. And that’s just not true. There’s room at the table for everyone to eat. There’s enough money to go around. There’s enough business to go around. There’s enough to go around.

Sharon Cline: [00:18:57] There’s enough unique sounds. There’s enough of an art of of an audience for whatever kind of music you have. There’s plenty for everyone.

Nick Smith: [00:19:04] Yes. And just content in general. Like there’s enough there for everyone to eat so that, you know, I love that he said that. And so I kind of took that with me. And when I started talking to John, so, you know, when my dad talked to John, he was like, you know, you need to talk to you. My son has a media company. I bet he would be into this. So when me and John started talking immediately, I was like, this is this is how everyone gets to pull a chair up to the table. This is how everyone gets to eat.

Sharon Cline: [00:19:30] Isn’t it amazing how you got hooked up with someone you know in just like a sort of a serendipitous way where you wouldn’t have even known if your dad wasn’t playing Call of right? Yeah, sometimes it just cracks me up. And it’s fascinating to me how people get put together. Like even your being on the show today is due to Zach and and his ties to music, and he and his dad played music, and you and your dad played music. And you’ve known each other since, you know, school. So cute. Um, so after you got in touch with this gentleman, um, now, now you you actually have, like, the bones of how you wanted to have this company get started.

Nick Smith: [00:20:05] Yeah. So, you know, John and I work together all the time. We have the, the dev team that we work with is phenomenal. So I got to give credit to, you know, he already had a team built and originally, you know me and him were just talking about me just, you know getting some stuff up there. And you know how this could help me. And right away I just I saw so much value in what this was. And me and him just started kind of talking and I was throwing ideas out. And, you know, I wasn’t looking for, you know, let me in. You know, it was just kind of, I, I love this and I want to help.

Sharon Cline: [00:20:38] You believed in it. Where are you geographically? Not together. You’re not.

Nick Smith: [00:20:41] Close? No. So there. The rest of the team is actually out in California. Got you.

Sharon Cline: [00:20:45] Um, but it doesn’t matter, does it? No, it.

Nick Smith: [00:20:46] Doesn’t. And that’s, you know, that’s something that’s that’s great about this. You know, like I said, streaming. It’s a little bit like social media and stuff like that. It’s really a double edged sword. But this is where it’s awesome for me, you know. Um. And so once we started talking a little bit and just kind of bouncing back and forth a lot, he was like, man, I want you to be a part of the team. And so they brought me in. And, uh.

Sharon Cline: [00:21:07] What an honor.

Nick Smith: [00:21:07] Right? Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know, like I said, I got to give all the credit in the world to him and to our dev team, especially who, you know, they bust their ass and makes it much easier for me and John to, uh, to be a pain in the ass for them also, because we can come on here and promise things that now they have to try to stick to. So let’s not do.

Sharon Cline: [00:21:26] That too much today. Right? Well, we were talking also before the show about how, um, you know, they’re able to on your, on your platform stage dive, you’ll be able to have access to merch if, if a client has some.

Nick Smith: [00:21:39] Yeah. So that’s, uh, that’s stuff that’s kind of coming down the road a little bit. So we’re, uh, we’re still early stages on this, you know.

Sharon Cline: [00:21:47] But you’re not on the App Store yet. No.

Nick Smith: [00:21:50] So we actually won’t be on the App Store. So I’m glad that you said that we actually won’t be on the App Store or on the Google Play Store or anything. And the reason is, um, you know, we know that’s going to be a little bit of an uphill battle for us to get people to kind of come to us directly at first, but for us to be on the, uh, the App Store or Google Play or anything, we would have to pay a pretty decent amount for anytime anyone were to download that, which would have mean which would mean that we would have to charge everybody more to be a part of our platform. So which is what.

Sharon Cline: [00:22:22] You’re trying to avoid.

Nick Smith: [00:22:23] Right? We’re trying to avoid that. We’re trying to keep it as cheap as possible and still have it be able to be something sustainable so that we can kind of share the wealth without, you know, no one’s in business to lose money. You know, like we still have to be able to make money ourselves. Right?

Sharon Cline: [00:22:35] But do you have to have an app?

Nick Smith: [00:22:37] So we will have an app. It’s just you’ll have to come to us to get it. So stagedive.com will be, you know, like we’ll have a, um, we’ll still have a website.

Sharon Cline: [00:22:46] Gotcha. And then you’ll have the links or whatever to be able to.

Nick Smith: [00:22:48] And from there you’ll still be able to get an app. It’ll still be on your home page, just like you’re doing it that way.

Sharon Cline: [00:22:52] Isn’t that so great?

Nick Smith: [00:22:53] Yeah, just going independent seemed to be the right way to do it.

Sharon Cline: [00:22:56] And for some reason, thinking about having an app at like the App Store. Apple Store. Yeah, who also has their own music just seems kind of wrong anyway. But it’s like the energy behind it feels like it matches what music is all about, which is not having someone control who you are and being able to freely express and to be able to profit from the way that you’re made and the way your mind works and where your soul is. So it just feels like exactly a perfect match, right?

Nick Smith: [00:23:24] Well, and that’s, you know, we had to have the conversation of, you know, look, this is going to be harder to convince people to come here instead of where everyone goes for everything, you know. And it is a little bit like, you know, if Walmart has taken over the town and we’re going to try to open up a small mom and pop shop, like it is hard to convince people to go around convenience to get to something that even if they believe in it, it’s just not always the easiest thing for people. Um, but the whole, the whole point of this is that it’s built to help, you know, independents and people that are trying to do this and that are kind of having to go underground with it and all of that. Like it just seemed to fit exactly what we were trying to build. And we just decided, like, look, we’ll take on a little bit more of the work there and, you know, we’ll have to be better at the marketing. We’ll have to be better at, you know, like getting this in front of everybody’s eyes. And, you know, however, we we feel like we need to do that. It just it just made more sense to do it instead of going like, all right, well then immediately we’re going to have to charge people more than what we thought. And it just felt like we’re having to immediately compromise.

Sharon Cline: [00:24:27] Exactly.

Nick Smith: [00:24:27] And cater. Yeah. And we just don’t want to do that. You know, it’s. It was a hard line of we’re not going to do ads. And when I say that, I also want to be clear because, you know, obviously podcasters and stuff, they make their money on ads. Any artist that’s on our platform, they can have ads themselves. You can do whatever you want with your airtime, but we’re not going to stop playing your music to put an ad because somebody gave us money. Um, you do whatever you want with your airtime, but we’re not going to force ads on anybody. Um, and so right away, we kind of had to figure out, like, how to still be able to make money and stuff like that because, you know, we just don’t want to compromise the, the vision of this and kind of what we saw from the beginning.

Sharon Cline: [00:25:10] What are the plans for marketing? Because I can imagine that is the big thing. I think if people know about it, they’re going to use it.

Nick Smith: [00:25:17] Yeah. And what man, what’s been so great is kind of what you’ve said a little bit too. Like, everyone has identified so much right away with man, if I could help out the people I listen to the most, that’s where I’d want to go. And it just seems like people are really craving, like, some sort of authenticity there. Um, so for us, a big, a big thing that’s been working well for us is really, um, a lot of the bands are so excited for this. They’re they’re working with us, which is great. And kind of just being able to say, like, hey, can we use you to help promote, you know, and, you know, running essentially what would be like a commercial or whatever using the bands on our platform. And they’re so excited to be a part of it. And that’s what’s connecting, really, is people are just finding exactly what you said, finding new music, finding people that they care about. And when you find, um, I think people are just naturally kind of tribal, you know, so when you find someone that you feel like you found them early, you love seeing those people kind of rise through the ranks a little bit, you know, like everyone wants to cheer for their hometown person, even if they’re not from your hometown. If you feel like you found them before everybody else did and you were there early, you love getting to say, I found them back four years ago before they were big, you know?

Sharon Cline: [00:26:27] Yeah, you’re invested, emotionally invested in doing well, too, and watching them grow. You know, I think what’s what’s exciting too, is, is the energy behind it being I am not going to allow someone else’s decision to dictate whether or not I can be successful. I’m not going to change who I I’m going to be. I’m going to live my truth and let that be the authentic part that comes out, and I can benefit from it, not anybody else. I always hated the fact that there were artists that were told they needed to change their sound, to be more marketable in some way. Yeah. You know, I always thought that was like, well, I mean, why the reason that they’re being successful or noticed at all is because they have raw talent. Right?

Nick Smith: [00:27:08] And, you know, I do want to shout out a specific band. Actually, there’s a band from Atlanta, uh, called Silly Goose. And it was these kind of young kids that, um, we went to a concert and when we were leaving, this ended up being the highlight of our night. And it wasn’t even the show we went to go see when we were leaving, there were these kids that had a show where they built a trailer, or they had their trailer and they secured all their gear on it so they could very noticeably, easily get away if the cops got called. But they were, uh, they just threw their own show out in the parking lot and they would strategically go like, okay, there’s shows going on here in Atlanta. There’s a big show here. Let’s get in front of a crowd. There’s a crowd that will be leaving an amphitheater at this time. Let’s get in front of them. And they were awesome. Like they were just their energy was incredible. Their music was great. And immediately like, you know, like I said, it was it was, who are these kids and how can I support them? And, uh, you know, we brought them on the podcast. We just started talking to them. We’ve gotten to know them and they’re awesome. And now, you know, they’re playing these, you know, like we saw them at Louder Than Life when we went. They’ve played Rockville. They’re they’re blowing up and they’re playing these big festivals. And everyone you can see in their crowd found them in the street, saw them doing it their way because nobody wanted to book them anywhere. They weren’t the most marketable band to anybody. They weren’t, you know, just no one wanted to book them. And getting to be in a room where, uh, where they finally got booked and they sold out a room and getting to say, like, you know, none of you wanted to give us a chance that we did this ourselves. How many people saw us in the street and the entire room went nuts. We were like, that’s it right there.

Sharon Cline: [00:28:42] Don’t you think it’s such a testament to the fact that that music companies and the industry in general don’t really know what it is? That’s not all the time knows what it is that’s really going to resonate.

Nick Smith: [00:28:53] Well, nobody.

Sharon Cline: [00:28:54] Does. I mean, it’s like a catching lightning in a bottle. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:28:58] I mean, you never know what’s going to what’s going to resonate any, any band or solo act or anyone that you can think of. At some point somebody looked at them and was like, nah, they’re not going to make it. Everyone. I mean, I can’t think of I mean, now, legends like Jimi Hendrix at the time, there were so many people that were like, you know, just not on board with what he was doing. And now he’s thought of as, you know, one of the greatest of all time, you know, and there’s just always going to be people that don’t get it. That’s not a reason to stop doing it. That’s not a reason to change either. I. If if there’s something that’s being done because it’s the best way, that’s fine. But if everything’s being done a certain way, just because it’s always the way it’s been done, I hate that I’ve never believed in that. It’s so.

Sharon Cline: [00:29:41] Contrived. Yeah, it’s not authentic and can’t. Can’t you feel authenticity when you’re in the midst of it? Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:29:47] And that’s and like I said, that’s really what has been the driving part of this in terms of, uh, like marketing and stuff like that is people are seeing it and they’re feeling it. And when we start talking about this, um, and thank you so much, because, you know, these being able to go on shows and stuff like this and being able to really explain this, um, when people hear about it, it just connects with, with something in them where they go like, yeah, that’s who I want to support. I want to support who I chose, not who you’re telling me I have to.

Sharon Cline: [00:30:14] There’s just something about the freedom of it. Like, I think it’s just innate in our personalities that we want to be able to choose and not be forced or told we have to. So being able to have stage dive, which gives people that freedom, it’s like the energy behind it is so infectious. I feel like.

Nick Smith: [00:30:32] Yeah, well thank you. And also I do want to backtrack a little bit to one of the things that you said. So you had talked about, um, like merch and stuff on stage dive and all that. So, you know, like I said, we’re early stages, but coming down the road, we want to be a one stop shop for the bands also. So being able to have a way for them to communicate with their fans having like almost like a, um, just a direct line to everybody so that when you see an artist, you’re not having to again, go to a third party. You don’t have to leave and try to find them on, you know, social media or find a website or whatever their merch is, their, their tickets are there. You can reach out to them there, you know, like just ways that bands have a direct line to their fans, and fans have a direct line to the people that they are a fan of. Um, and just rebuilding a community that I feel like has fallen off in music. You know, that’s that’s a big part of it too, is there’s think of when you go to a live show, there is a community there. There’s people you have never met. In fact, it’s full of people you’ve never met. And there’s something bringing you all together. And you can look around and just connect with people all around you, and that just doesn’t happen anywhere else. You don’t go to the grocery store and look around and just start connecting with people. But you go to a concert and you do.

Sharon Cline: [00:31:41] Well. I had gone to see an artist here in Atlanta probably ten years ago, big artist and. It was sold out at Philips Arena. Is it called Philips Arena? State farm arena. I don’t know what it’s called now. Next is CNN and it’s I looked around at one point, one of his famous songs, and I just kind of turned around and watched the crowd and everyone was singing like the same song, the same thing, and just watching people so happy. It was wonderful to be able to step back and really appreciate what was happening.

Nick Smith: [00:32:12] That’s my favorite thing, actually, is exactly what you just said. It’s my favorite thing to do at a show is, you know, when we went to like Louder Than Life this last year, like going to these, like big festivals or going to a small show, uh, you know, going to see somebody at Smith’s Bar or going to see somebody in amphitheater or wherever. It’s the same thing, like standing in the room and just looking around and seeing like, wow, all of all of these people came here for the exact same reason I did. Like everyone came here to be a part of what’s happening right now. And it is like as soon as it’s done, this moment is done. You know, like even if you can watch it on a video or hear it on, you know, an album later or something like that, this moment is done as soon as we leave here, and there is something that just that doesn’t happen again, like music can bring something out that that just doesn’t exist anywhere else. And that’s incredible, you know, so being able to to give back to the artists that are doing that on stage, you know, they worked really hard to be there. And they’re just there’s not an avenue for them to like kind of own their own, like art anymore.

Sharon Cline: [00:33:13] I always feel like it is a reflection of this. It’s like a child, you know, it’s a little part of who they are and they own it. And so for someone, you know, imagining someone taking some of the music that I had made and used it for their own or not paid me for, it would hurt me so badly, you know, it sucks, you know? Yeah. And it would be like, that’s that was that was from my brain, you know, like that belonged to me. And so having control over that I think is it’s an emotional thing.

Nick Smith: [00:33:38] Yeah. Well and you know, like you said, you, you wrote music and put out an album and everything. So, you know, there is something really cool that I, I wish everyone was able to experience in some way. And you just don’t unless you do some type of some type of art. Yeah. Something creative. Yeah, but there’s not that many notes the same way. There’s not like there’s not that many colors, you know, like if someone starts painting something like you have all the same colors everyone else does, you know, but you paint something and you go, wow, that now there’s something that existed that didn’t exist before. When you make a song, it’s the same thing. Same thing.

Sharon Cline: [00:34:09] Yes, I totally agree. I can remember completing a song and and and you know, learning learning it and like singing it as I’m doing things around the house. And I was like, what? This is so crazy that this never the words were not put together exactly the way I did and the notes weren’t, and it just felt so, um, powerful, but not in a, um, a way that I want to control the world. I just felt like I can create something that now exists. I mean, that album exists out in the world that didn’t before. So it’s almost like, what else can I do? You know, it’s it’s exciting and, um, it’s sacred work. I felt like it was very sacred to me.

Nick Smith: [00:34:46] Yeah, well, and I do wish there was a way that everyone could feel that in some way. But you know that there just is a creative thing. You know that unless you have this creative process or whatever, it’s really hard to try to describe what that feeling is. It’s hard to describe the feeling of. Creating something and again, like you have the same stuff everyone else does. You have the same notes, you have the same equipment, you have the same same.

Sharon Cline: [00:35:09] Clay, same exact thing. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:35:11] And putting something together with especially, you know, like a band, like you put something together with your friends and go like, holy shit, that didn’t exist before. And now it does. And then you go on stage somewhere and you do this thing, and then when you’re done, people start cheering like, I don’t know how to put that into words for people if they haven’t experienced it before.

Sharon Cline: [00:35:28] It’s so true. I’m like, get chills when I think about that moment. I had given some money back to like a charity after I made some money on my album, and I can remember it was for Feed the Children, and I could not control myself as I was like getting the check from the bank because I felt like there are people out there that are going to eat. And have like a full belly from something that came from my brain. Like I could not.

Nick Smith: [00:35:53] A whole second level of that. I couldn’t.

Sharon Cline: [00:35:54] Handle it. It was like, I mean, the guy handed me the check was like, you’re doing a really good thing. Like, he felt so bad for me because I couldn’t couldn’t even speak. But it was it felt like very sacred work. And it felt like I did something that gave me joy, but also brought something good to someone else’s life. And like the win win was just so much. And that’s what I think. That’s what you’re talking about here is the win win.

Nick Smith: [00:36:18] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you know when when you talk about that, I have some other stuff here that, um, you know, what’s crazy is you kind of know about this stuff if you’re in it, you know, like if you’re if you’re a musician that’s putting up music, you know, that.

Sharon Cline: [00:36:32] You think about it and you’re you hear about.

Nick Smith: [00:36:34] It. But the average person that’s listening to music or listening to a podcast, you don’t really think about what is, you know, this hour of my time, this three minutes of my time that I’m listening to the song, what is this person getting paid for it? Like nobody thinks about that, really?

Sharon Cline: [00:36:47] Um, you just want to enjoy the song. You don’t care. You’re just trying to get to the grocery store, right?

Nick Smith: [00:36:51] Well, and but you also don’t think about it in the sense of like, um. If you knew that I could give this directly to my favorite band. Or I could give them, you know, a couple cents and give the the the dollars here to someone else that I don’t know. And that isn’t really doing much for me other than just giving me a name. Yeah.

Sharon Cline: [00:37:13] Your name associated.

Nick Smith: [00:37:13] With. Yeah. Not many people I think would do that. And what? In doing research for this to try to like, you know, again having these numbers so that people could kind of understand all this, it’s way darker than, than than I originally thought. And now a lot of venues are, um, they’re taking cuts of merch also. So we talked about, you know, merch being kind of the way that most bands were able to stay afloat because you don’t make a lot of money in streaming. You don’t make a lot from ticket sales. And we’ve seen what happened with Ticketmaster and all that lately. And it just. So merch cuts, um. It’s not new, but it’s definitely becoming more prominent than it’s happening. Okay. Um, it’s becoming a much more regular thing, and it could be as low as 10%, but it could be as high as 40%. Wow. And from that. Depending on where you are. Some some cities, there’s 10% in tax that you have to pay on that. There’s 5% for credit card fees. And if you have a manager or lawyer, anything of your larger band, anywhere from 5 to 20%, you have to pay out on that too. So. I looked it up. Estimated 23% of Americans buy merch on site as opposed to, you know, going online and ordering it or whatever. You buy it there at the show. That’s almost a quarter of your fan base is buying it there at a venue. And it’s not guaranteed, but you have the potential to lose 85% of your money from that. If you add all those numbers up together, 85% on a quarter of your fans is what you’re losing. And those fans that are buying a shirt are buying it to support you. Yeah, they’re at a premium.

Sharon Cline: [00:38:48] Want it to go to you.

Nick Smith: [00:38:49] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s just it’s crazy to me that you could lose 85% of your money on that big of your fan, like, you know, that big a portion of your fan base just because there’s not another way to do it, because it’s either that or you don’t play at this venue. Well, if you’re a huge band, maybe you have the, you know, Taylor Swift can go somewhere and say, I’m not going to do that. Well, the venue is kind of beholden to her at that point. If you’re not that, if you’re someone who’s this is your only shot at a venue, you pay it because there’s not another way around that for you. Um, tour, you know, when bands go on tour, uh, you know, I grew up metal head and being, you know, Megadeth is is a band that I’ve loved my whole life. Right? And recently I was watching an interview with Dave Mustaine, and he talked about this. So a single day, if they’re not playing, like if they’re just if they take a day off, they still pay about $50,000 to their crew for that day to just be parked somewhere on a bus, um, because they’re paid a per diem. So they’re paid every day. Whether you’re playing or not, you still have to pay your crew.

Nick Smith: [00:39:54] So, you know, in the news lately, Taylor Swift, it’s great that she did this, but she paid $50 million in bonuses for her Eras tour to her, to her staff and the crew and everybody coming with her. That’s an insane number. And that’s awesome that she paid that. But think of those numbers like you’re paying 50,000 a day to just sit there. And I’ve seen them live like they put on a great show, but they are very much about the music. They don’t have a gigantic stage show the way she does, you know? And just those numbers just don’t seem real. And 50 million to get paid out to the staff. Like, you hear that? And it’s like, wow, how awesome that she did that. And for sure it is. It’s great that she did that. But. How expensive it is for her to go on tour to begin with. If she’s losing money on all of these things. The fact that, I mean, the fact that she’s making as much money as she is is incredible. But think of how much she’s having to pay, and she’s constantly losing just to be able to go out on tour and do all this. That’s I mean, those numbers are criminal.

Sharon Cline: [00:40:51] They are. And considering how successful she is, let’s compare and contrast an artist who does not have access like that. It’s just exponentially much more difficult.

Nick Smith: [00:41:01] Yeah, it’s it’s really hard when you think of, you know, so like I said earlier, um. It’s it’s kind of easy if you’re a band that’s in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to look at it and go like, well, this sucks that we’re losing this much money, but you’ve been around for however long and you’re still, you know, the Rolling Stones aren’t hurting. You know, uh, Taylor Swift is not hurting. She’s, you know, the biggest star in the world, but she’s still not getting paid what she should, you know? And, um, so I do like to do this when I come on shows and stuff. I asked you when we were, uh, trying to set up a time for me to come in some of your favorite bands, um, and one that you put on here is actually the perfect example of this. Uh, the Eagles are a band that that I love. They’re one of my favorite bands, and they have the number one and number three highest selling albums of all time. Uh, which I’m not going to use the number one because that’s their greatest hits, so I’m not going to count that.

Sharon Cline: [00:41:53] But yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:41:54] Uh, Hotel California is the third best selling album ever. It is 36 times or I’m sorry, 26 times platinum and has 32 million in sales. Um, which actually, I don’t think that 26 is right anymore, because the reason I used a million, uh, for my number before is that’s what qualified as a platinum album. Gotcha. So that should be 32 times platinum.

Sharon Cline: [00:42:17] Okay. Right.

Nick Smith: [00:42:18] Um, so I kind of break it down in. I know vinyl is more expensive, and especially for the Eagles, a lot of their sales are in vinyl, but a lot of it is in cassettes and CDs and whatever, which is roughly about $10. So I kind of keep it to that $10 number knowing that it’s it is more than that because that’s not, you know, taking into account vinyl and everything else. But if you just go with that $10 number. 32 million in sales would have made this a $320 million album. What that is in terms of streaming for 32 million streams is $139,000. Oh my.

Sharon Cline: [00:42:59] God.

Speaker3: [00:43:02] And oh, it’s that’s awful.

Nick Smith: [00:43:05] It’s crazy because then you look it up. Hotel California. The song streams about 778,000 times a day. So just that one song, not the album, just that song, which, you know, like I said, double edged sword. That’s the part of it that’s great. Is 778,000 times a day that that’s being streamed. That could not happen back in the 70s. That could not happen, you know, through the majority of their career. It happens every day, literally every day. Now on one platform that’s only on Spotify. That’s not including Apple Music, that’s not including, you know, any.

Speaker3: [00:43:37] Music, Amazon.

Nick Smith: [00:43:37] That’s not including anything else. That’s just one platform. So that’s incredible, that unbelievable unbelievable. But that also means on Spotify, they’re making, uh, about $3,400 a day. Again, that’s that’s a lot of money to stick in someone’s pocket every day. I’d love to have, you know.

Sharon Cline: [00:43:59] Well, then it’s passive income, right.

Nick Smith: [00:44:00] Exactly. So I would love to have someone just give me a check for, you know, $3,400 a day. But that’s also keeping in mind that they’re putting out, you know, what, a quarter or three quarters of what would have been a platinum album. They’re doing that every day on one song, and that would have been worth 320 million. And, you know, the 70s, if you just break it down by, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s.

Speaker3: [00:44:26] Yeah. Break it down by.

Nick Smith: [00:44:27] Just album sales or something. That’s what that would have been worth. And it’s now worth less than $4,000 every day. Like, again, you are getting way more eyes. You’re getting way more ears on it all the time. So it’s you know, it does genuinely really help you. And and I know I’m kind of taking a lot of shots at Spotify. It’s only because they’re.

Speaker3: [00:44:45] Well, they’re the number one.

Nick Smith: [00:44:45] They’re the number one. But also in doing all this, they’re not even the worst. Like I’m not picking them because they actually pay out significantly more than a lot of the other platforms, which is crazy when you hear these numbers that what would have been, you know, almost a platinum album pays less than $4,000, knowing that is the best it gets right now. That’s as good as you can hope for right now, is that? And that just doesn’t make any sense. And, you know, the the CEO of that company doesn’t write music, has never put out music. He’s three times richer than Paul McCartney. And that’s just. It. There’s there has to be a better way to do that.

Speaker3: [00:45:23] There’s got to be a balance.

Sharon Cline: [00:45:24] It’s not balanced at all. Right? And you’re you’re trying to create a balance.

Nick Smith: [00:45:28] Yeah. That’s why you know we again it’s it’s a hard line of we’re giving half literally instead of us keeping 99.9%. And that 1% goes back to we’re we’re taking half and sending it to the artist.

Sharon Cline: [00:45:41] So imagine people listening right now who believe in what you’re doing, like I do. What would be the best way that they could help you?

Nick Smith: [00:45:48] So next week, actually, um, so like I said, we’re in early stages. Alpha stage right now is kind of where we’re at. So we do have a site that’s live, but it’s, you know, we’re still I signed up on it.

Speaker3: [00:45:58] Yeah. It’s awesome. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:45:59] Um, so our paid beta launches on the 18th. So next week.

Speaker3: [00:46:05] Thursday. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:46:06] So next week the paid beta is going to go out. So you can sign up and and pay the 3.99. And the artists that are on there will start being paid. So whoever you’re listening to like everything is it starts going live next week@stagedive.com. Um, the app isn’t quite ready yet, but it’s coming very soon. I know that’s not the most convenient thing for people, but it’s it’s on the way. All the extra features that we’re talking about are they’re actively working. Like I said, our dev team, we’re they are busting their ass. You know, you got got.

Speaker3: [00:46:36] You have a deadline coming.

Sharon Cline: [00:46:37] You want to be able to fulfill.

Nick Smith: [00:46:38] Well and all of us have jobs still. You know, all of us have day.

Speaker3: [00:46:41] Jobs and everything.

Nick Smith: [00:46:42] You know, like I’m welding all day and then coming home and then working on this. And me and John are working on marketing stuff and, you know, these ideas and everything and the, the dev guys all have jobs. And then, you know, a lot of them are working, you know, into late hours at night, um, just trying to get the stuff ready. And they do a phenomenal job. But, you know, stuff takes time. So, um, all of that is coming and we’re hoping it’s going to be here really, really soon. Um, but it will, you know, there’s stuff streaming, there’s music on there, there’s podcasts on there. There’s stuff for you to go listen to. And again, it’s all it’s ready to go that whoever you’re listening to know that they’re getting paid for it. Know that the whoever you’re supporting, that’s who your money is going to look. 399 isn’t that isn’t that much, you know, less than a cup of coffee.

Sharon Cline: [00:47:27] That’s exactly what I was thinking.

Nick Smith: [00:47:28] Yeah, less than a cup of coffee gets to support, you know, artists for real. You know, um, it doesn’t take that many people for $2 to add up compared, you know, comparatively speaking, to what’s here.

Speaker3: [00:47:40] Wow.

Sharon Cline: [00:47:41] I’m so excited for you. Next week’s a big week.

Nick Smith: [00:47:44] Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s going to be big. And then at the, uh, the end of this month, we’re going to Nam out in California.

Speaker3: [00:47:50] Are you really? Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:47:51] So, uh, again, I got to give all the credit in the world to John getting getting us badges, and, uh, we don’t have a booth, but we’re going to be there, uh, walking around, talking to everybody and trying to make a big impact out there.

Sharon Cline: [00:48:03] Well, I know that you’ve got stage Devcom. Um, but what is a way that people could contact you directly if they would like more information or would like to figure out different ways to help besides just being able to support? Sure.

Nick Smith: [00:48:17] Um, any of our socials at Get Stage Dive, or if you want to just reach out to us directly, um, you can reach out to me at, um, Nick at Stage dive.com if you want to just email me and if you have any questions or you want to be a part of it or anything, just reach out directly. And, you know, we’re always open to talk to to everyone about this. Because the other thing, um, I think people are just inherently skeptical. Also, you know, so there are a decent amount of people that have been like, no, this sounds too good to be true. I don’t I don’t trust you, I don’t, I don’t, you know, and we we kind of have to just break down everything that I got to do here, you know, which is which is why again, thank you for allowing me that to, you know, kind of have a platform to talk about all this.

Sharon Cline: [00:48:59] What I love so much is that music in itself has, um, um, lands where it’s supposed to and people are, um. Putting thoughts and words into something that they hope lands into someone else’s heart and has meaning like it does for them. There’s a belief that they have about themselves and what they’re creating, and you are also having a belief in them and a belief in what you’re doing. So it’s like, to me, this is so perfect. It’s the perfect marriage of energy, of being allowed, of allowing people to have control over something that they created themselves, that will keep them from being horribly bitter when they see how much money is being. Because I would be, wouldn’t you? I would be horribly like like it’s not worth it. It’s not worth my doing all of this when I’m a.

Speaker3: [00:49:47] Lot of people are.

Sharon Cline: [00:49:48] Oh, I can only imagine. I mean, I’m sure it would turn people away from even wanting to be artists when they see just how difficult it is. But here’s what you’re doing. You’re giving them an alternative that gives them hope and a platform that they know that they’ve got people behind them that believe in them just as artists. Not the big name out there, but just who they are as people and bands and podcasters. And I just, I love it because it’s it’s that belief that, um, it gives hope to people. Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:50:15] Well, thank you so much. And like I said, you know, we just we have so much coming down the road that we’re so excited. I can’t talk about everything, of course, but, um, there’s just there’s so much that we see on the horizon for being able to offer bands and the fans, you know, being able to just like I said, the biggest thing to me is just that one stop shop for for a band, having the opportunity to just have such a direct line to their.

Speaker3: [00:50:36] Fans, nobody has that. And well, he has that.

Nick Smith: [00:50:38] Yeah. I mean, and especially not without third parties, you know, just everything. You have to go somewhere else to get whatever it is, whether it’s, you know, merch or tickets or, you know, you want to find them on social media or, you know, some bands have like a discord chat with their fans or whatever, trying to put all that in one place where you don’t. If you find a cool band like you’ve talked about, like just stumbling on a band or whatever, everything’s right there. You don’t have to, you know, you might be on the way here and you’re in the car and you look down and go, man, these guys are really good. Who is this? And then now you’re supposed to remember who that band is and go find them on, you know, Instagram after you’ve done an interview with somebody and, you know, like you’re not going to remember that, but being able to just have everything right there, um, having the ability to, you know. We’re going to have. So you can tip artists like if you want to throw.

Speaker3: [00:51:23] Them a little bit extra.

Nick Smith: [00:51:24] Like just stuff like that. Just just opening everything up to where you can support who you want to and.

Sharon Cline: [00:51:29] Know it really goes.

Speaker3: [00:51:30] To them. Yeah. And no it goes to them.

Sharon Cline: [00:51:31] Confidence in that.

Speaker3: [00:51:32] Yeah.

Nick Smith: [00:51:32] And that’s you know that’s that’s been huge is just people knowing like yeah this is real and this is authentic. It’s going I’m I’m supporting who I chose to not who you’re telling me is on top right.

Sharon Cline: [00:51:45] That rebel spirit man that just I love it because you’re not allowing someone to tell you what to do and how it’s going to go. Um, well, would you like to come back maybe in, like, I don’t know, a few months and let us know how things are going? I would love to hear your progress. I’m such a fan of what you are promoting. And, um, please come back so we can kind of just discuss the things that you’ve learned as well, you know, along the way.

Speaker3: [00:52:09] Thank you so much. That would be awesome.

Sharon Cline: [00:52:10] You’re welcome. Nick Smith stage dive. Com. Thank you so much for coming into Fearless Formula. Thank you. And thank you all for listening to Fearless Formula. And again this is Sharon Cline reminding you that with knowledge and understanding we can all have our own fearless formula. Have a great day.