Embracing Imperfection: How Creative Expression Fuels Leadership Success

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Jenn Todling, who is an author, an instructor, and an executive coach with the University of Denver. Welcome.

Jenn Todling: Thanks, Lee. It’s so great to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your practice. How you serving folks?

Jenn Todling: Yeah. So I’ve been in a sort of career redesign, I would say, the last few years, and I left a 20 year career in public accounting a couple years, about a year and a half ago, to really launch into follow my dreams. And so my passion work is really helping to support leaders and bringing the best version of themselves to their work in life. And so I do that through leadership coaching through facilitating immersive neuroscience inspired leadership workshops. And I just launched a book. So there’s a lot of really exciting creative outlets going on. And really just in a space of helping support people through transformation.

Lee Kantor: So let’s talk about the career for a second. It was in accounting, right?

Jenn Todling: Yeah, it was an audit partner at EY. 20 year career.

Lee Kantor: So what is the mindset necessary to achieve what you achieved in a 20 year career in accounting. And that is going to kind of set you up, set yourself up to be successful in this kind of new executive coaching career.

Jenn Todling: Yeah, I love that question. So for me to be successful in my accounting career, there was a lot of persistence and grit, right? There was a lot of it was a very technical role. So I needed to have, you know, technical knowledge, technical skills. But also it was because I was in the audit space and I was in client service. I needed to be able to build relationships and understand where there might be challenges and how we could address those, either through my my clients needs or also just through the audit teams that I led. And so the relationship side and it sounds kind of funny, I kind of went into accounting for relationships, but it was true really has helped me. Then in this next chapter, as I’m building sort of this entrepreneurial space, I’m coaching and working, you know, more directly in the leadership arena, really being able to have that emotional intelligence and to understand, like what’s not being said or interpret body language, right, and sort of be able to read that room has really helped sort of translate into this next chapter of my life and career.

Lee Kantor: When you were in the accounting world, did you ever get coaching or were you ever mentored or like, was there things that happened? Were you were able to see kind of the benefit of those kinds of relationships?

Jenn Todling: Yes, all of the above. So I was really fortunate. There was a really strong coaching culture and mentoring culture since I was, you know, a new staff. And so I experienced a lot of on the job coaching, a lot of formal mentoring. And then when I made partner, the firm had executive coaching practice where they gave you a coach to support that transition. And I worked with that coach for seven years. I had, I think, 2 or 3 different ones to help me support the role of, you know, a new partner. And then when I became a new mom, you know, helping with that support. And so I found, you know, how instrumental that was to, to one to just have an independent thought partner who wasn’t in my day to day, who could give me a different perspective of some challenges I was facing, and to help me work through some of my own challenges, right, of adjusting to leading in a new way so that I could honor myself. And so that was so powerful, and it helped me realize just really the value that coaching can provide to business leaders.

Lee Kantor: So when you were getting that kind of coaching, was that something that your organization paid for or was this coming out of your own pocket?

Jenn Todling: So I’ve done both, but they do. E had an internal coaching practice. So too there was a leadership coaching practice and career coaching practice. And so it was internal and it was paid for by the firm. And when I was also exploring sort of what I wanted to do next, I used the career coaching services to support me in designing sort of this next chapter. And then I’ve also hired my own coaches outside of EY, um, to support me in different realms. But this program was internally sponsored, which was really wonderful.

Lee Kantor: So now are you working with individuals or do you work with organizations in your current practice?

Jenn Todling: So I do both. Right now I’m primarily working with individuals. Um, and through the program I teach at the University of Denver, the individuals I work with. That program is company sponsored. So it’s a corporate learning program. And so they’re working in professional services. They’re working in hospitality and retail. And so I support a lot of frontline leaders and managers. And getting the skills to be able to be successful in leading teams and managing themselves.

Lee Kantor: Now are you seeing coaching as something that is, uh, a must have in an organization nowadays or nice to have? Like, where is it kind of in the mindset of the leaders of these organizations because it’s it’s been around for a while now. This isn’t the the new kid on the block.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. I mean, I think what I’ve seen in organizations is there’s probably it depends on the organization. Um, but I have seen that there may be is more of a nice to have you. I think in my experience, what I’ve seen in sort of working with leaders directly is it’s essential. So does coaching have to be the modality that you, you know, support your team? Not necessarily. I think having strong leadership development though is so important. And even in the accounting profession, right, where, yes, the technical knowledge matters and the critical thinking skills are important, but so is creativity. So a relationship so is emotional intelligence. And if we’re not building that, we are doing a disservice. I think, to the professionals in those, um, serving their clients. And so I have seen that the people that go through the program and that get coaching, and it doesn’t have to be a lot like I’ve seen so many transformational results with 3 to 5 conversations. They really just are able to to leap forward and have that confidence to bring their full selves to their job.

Lee Kantor: So anything you can share when it comes to that type of a triage, I guess, coaching experience where it’s just 3 to 5. Like what would be attainable? Because I would think a lot of, um, executive leadership, if they were going to implement a program, they think, oh great, this is something. Now I got every. Every one of my people are going to have a coach, and this is like a weekly thing forever. But I’d be curious to hear how you would kind of structure a 3 to 5 session, maybe, uh, intervention in a positive way to help a leader just kind of maybe wring out the most value from themselves and be the best them they can be.

Jenn Todling: Yeah, I love that. And I think that’s important. Right. Because resources are limited in some circumstances. And you need to prioritize your budget. Right. So how can you get the most bang for the buck? What I have seen is there’s probably different subsets of your career journey where coaching really is helpful. So the program I facilitate at the University of Denver is targeted for frontline leaders or first time managers. And so that’s an opportunity where you’re really shifting from maybe being an individual contributor or, um, a peer, and now you’re going to sort of be that supervisor or that leader. And there are things that shift that you can benefit from support with. So what I find with the leaders, I work in that space, honestly, a lot of it is working through imposter syndrome and confidence. And so they will start the program unsure of their ability to lead. Not sure how to fully show up authentically. And we work through that and we highlight their strengths and we we remind them, you know, or encourage areas to practice in small steps on the job. And you will find I have found anyway that after five sessions they don’t. Not all of them suffer from imposter syndrome, um, anymore. Now, maybe it’s not completely eliminated, but there’s so much more confident, and they’re willing to engage in conversations and advocate for themselves in a different way. So I think that’s a really tangible way to support, especially sort of that frontline leadership or manager population without having to have a Significant investment.

Lee Kantor: So you mentioned imposter syndrome specifically. Is there something actionable a person could do right now if they want to at least kind of see that they’re they don’t have to suffer with this. Is there something that you recommend that, hey, if you just do this or this exercise, maybe this will prove to yourself that that you’re you’re not faking it.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. I mean, the first thing that I share is that almost everybody faces imposter syndrome. And when we normalize it, some of that weight dissipates. And so when we talk about this in my class, and we all raise our hands and we’re like, oh, I suffer with that too. It makes us feel okay. We’re not alone and we can talk about it. So that would be step one is is you’re not alone. And the other thing that I have found. So two tips. One is sometimes we get in our head right. We think, oh I don’t know if I’m qualified for this role. They’re going to find out that I don’t really know what I’m doing. But if we can think a little bit less and take a little bit more action, even if it’s imperfect action, we will get better at the things we’re trying to learn. And so I’ve learned that even in my corporate role saying, look, I can do hard things, I can try my best, and I’m going to learn and be curious. And I’m not expecting perfection because that perfection sometimes shows up as imposter syndrome, because we don’t want to make a mistake or look like we’re failing. And so if you can embrace taking imperfect, imperfect action, I have found that take some of that weight away. And then the other thing, actually, one of my leaders shared this with me, and I thought this was a great tip. Is she actually named sort of the imposter syndrome as like a Marcia, Marcia, Marcia voice, kind of like from The Brady Bunch. And so when you have that moment of self-doubt, she would say, okay, Marcia, I hear you. And I’m going to try this anyway. And so it just creates this acknowledgment without hiding it, that takes away some of that weight that might get in our way.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, those are great tips. Something my wife worked in. My wife worked in corporate for many years, and something that was at her early in her career. Something that she was struggling with was the kind of the annual review, and she’d have to remember all the stuff. And that was a challenge. And then it’s like, how much did I do? And the only thing you remember is what you did recently. And something that helped her was she made a folder and she just put anytime something happened, she just put it in the folder, didn’t think about it and just. And so when it’s time for the annual review, she could go to that folder and there’d be, you know, dozens and dozens of things that she did that she can put in the annual route that made the annual review less stressful. And it kind of reinforced, look, I am making a difference. I can do hard things. And here’s a big pile of them.

Jenn Todling: Yeah, and I love that. And I’ve actually shared that with some of the leaders I work with because you do struggle like but what did I really do today or what did I really do this week. Right. And so write it down. And so I would have the same thing. Here’s my little accomplishments folder. Digital folder or or just a piece of, um, you know, an open word document that I would just write down notes because I think that also then reminds you those little moments do add up and celebrating those, you know, and I think taking time to honor that can be so impactful. So I love that example. Thanks for sharing that.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think it’s one of those things where we’re just doing so much that we just take so much of it for granted that we don’t really, like you said, honor it and appreciate it. And sometimes when you have kind of a visual, uh, element, I know some people do this with like a jar, they’ll put like a little thing in the jar. That’s a reminder that they did something. And they’ll they’ll be like, even if it’s just like a little scrap of paper, they want it up and throw it in there. And all of a sudden you see this jar filled with stuff. You’re like, I can do hard things. I, I am this person that I aspire to be.

Jenn Todling: Yeah, I love that. And it really is like if we can embrace sort of this growth mindset, which we’re we’re always learning, we’re always learning. And I’ve had some moments in my career where I have made some big mistakes or things have gone wrong. And, and it was hard because I am, you know, someone who’s high achiever, you know, recovering perfectionist and all the things. And I’ve had to learn through that process of, look, we’re I’m just trying to do my best. And when I have better information, I’ll do better, you know? But just giving myself some grace. And I found that that has helped me and my own leadership journey be a lot more authentic and impactful, because I’m not worried so much about messing it up.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think that so many times we self-sabotage and then if we can just kind of eliminate that, life becomes so much easier and less stressful.

Jenn Todling: 100%, I totally agree.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, now that you’ve made the transition to entrepreneur from kind of working for a very large organization, uh, Who helped you? Who’s kind of your support staff in that transition? Because I would imagine, you know, when you were at, uh, at your firm, you know, there was a lot of people you could go to for help. And then when it’s you, you’re you’re everybody or a lot of the people.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had a lot of coaches that have helped me. Right. So I have my little coaching squad and I’ve also tapped into community. So part of even before I left EA, probably three years before I joined a networking organization that was filled with women entrepreneurs, and that was sort of the target audience. And so a lot of the women had worked in accounting before, and so they were a few years ahead of where I sort of wanted to be. And so that support really helped me understand and prepare like financially, mentally, emotionally. Like what? What’s ahead of me? Um, and there’s still obviously surprises once you take the leap, but at least I have the support to say, here’s, here’s what I can expect. And then they’ve helped support me along the way. And then I recently moved back to Colorado after a couple decades on the East and West Coast, and I’ve tapped into another networking group for moms and business, and I have a six year old at home. And so that, you know, when you’re managing caregiving responsibilities and, you know, trying to to support the growth of tiny humans like it does look a little bit different sometimes. And so having a network of moms who are either entrepreneurs or they’re in the corporate world, but that can support each other and really be creative has been super impactful. So you really can’t do it alone. And as an entrepreneur, it can be incredibly lonely and isolating. So figuring out what communities you can tap into. I have found that’s really been an area of strength and support.

Lee Kantor: Now, when it comes to your coaching practice, how did you kind of come about your methodology or what was resonating with you and how much of it is, you know, maybe somebody else’s methodology and how much is kind of your own secret sauce?

Jenn Todling: Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. And I think there are so many different ways to coach. Um, for me, I’ve done three different training programs. So I did sort of a basic coaching program about ten years ago. And then in the pandemic, I went back to school and did an executive and professional program. And then I realized I love neuroscience, like I am a little neuroscientist. And I did an advanced coaching program that was neuroscience based. And so there’s a lot of tools and practices that I learned in that program that I embed into my practice. Um, I also did an advanced program to become a licensed trainer with that organization. And so I do facilitate, um, learning experiences that leverage that curriculum because I love it. It’s amazing. And it helps support, um, leaders in navigating. You know, productivity or inspiration or just emotional regulation, which I think is so important as a leader and without having to start from scratch of developing content. So I was able to get trained and have that sort of intellectual property that I licensed so that I can use that in my practice. So that’s sort of the foundation of what I use. Um, but for me, it’s a little bit of an art and a science because I’m also a dancer and I’ve seen the power of embodiment and coaching. And so I integrate, you know, all of the different sides of, of my being into that, um, and really try and just tune into, like, what does my client need today? And is that something that’s a little bit more, um, tactical and practical and a tool or is it. We need to close our eyes and we need to do some visualization. And so I try and really just meet my clients where they are. And that’s how I approach my coaching engagements, is I have a lot of tools that I can use, but I just try. I don’t have a prescription of, here’s what you’re going to do in session one, 2 or 3. It’s really trying to meet my clients where they are.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I’m fascinated by, uh, kind of neuroscience as well. Is there a nugget you can share that maybe is something that can open people’s minds to? What are the benefits of learning more about that could be.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. So one of my favorite exercises and I think this this works really well for accountants or people, you know, engineers, lawyers. Like if you’re in a very technical profession and you’re really used to, you know, there’s a lot of deadlines, there’s a lot of things that need to get done. Um, it can feel indulgent or maybe guilty to go for a 30 minute walk in nature in the middle of the day, um, or to take a dance class at night or an art class or learn a musical instrument. But when you understand the different networks of the brain, you will learn that if we’re always operating in the get stuff done mode, we’re not capitalizing on all of our creative and innovative powers of our brain, because those really only get turned on when we step away from the work. So when you have those moments of insight in the shower or driving your car, that’s a different part of your brain that’s being activated. And so when we can reframe those moments as actually productive, but in a different way, it can help us be even more impactful and powerful in our job. So for me, as a quick example, in busy season, which we’re working nonstop in the pandemic, I took a hip hop class on Sunday afternoon and learning choreography again and just having a break from the email and the accounting challenges actually made me more efficient and effective when I went back to my computer. And so that was a really important message for me to say, actually, this is being productive. It’s not, um, a nice to have. It really is essential for me to have the whole picture of how I can support my clients.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned earlier, uh, the dance is important to you and your book, uh, Dancing on My Own Two Feet has recently been published. Can you talk a little bit about how you were able to kind of take what you learned and the impact of dance in your life and turn it into a book?

Jenn Todling: Yeah. So this is a really I mean, this is a memoir. So it’s a very personal journey of mine. But it was my experience that after leaving a relationship that was very challenging, I was, you know, 30 years old, trying to find myself again. And I hadn’t danced in ten years. It was a childhood passion that I had sort of forgotten about. And as I started to reengage in dance in New York City, um, this time it was ballroom and Latin. So partner dance, I started to become myself again and to, you know, um, be more confident, to be more curious, to feel more grounded in who I was. And that was a really powerful experience to realize kind of the point I was just illustrating that creative practices are really essential in helping us be the best version of ourselves. And so the underlying theme of the story, or one of them, is the importance of taking time to have creative outlets. And if you can use your body in that process, it’s even better. And so through that process, I was able to heal from past trauma. I was able to find love again, and I was able to sort of become a whole person. And so it’s really this transformative power of creative expression is what I hope people walk away with when they read it.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, that that’s so important. I think people like you. You say they’re in their mind. They’re saying, oh, being creative or oh, exercise and working out is frivolous and I don’t have time for that. I got important things. But those are foundational things like the those are the building blocks that everything else is on top of. So make time for those things. And people, I think, forget that exercise, sleep, you know, being creative. Uh, those things are are must haves. You work your day around those things, you don’t do it the other way.

Jenn Todling: Exactly. And I learned that the hard way my first year as a partner. You know, I’m trying to also be a new mom. And like, all the things, you know, it’s a big role. There’s a lot of things. I wasn’t exercising, I wasn’t sleeping, I wasn’t taking breaks. And I had a little bit of a breakdown and I was like, oh, I am not okay. And this is a marathon, not a sprint. How do I refocus on my vitality? And that was one of the first things I actually worked on with my coach is how do I work on prioritizing this and making time for this and realizing that, you know, that is the foundation, because then that’s going to support the energy that I bring to my clients, to my work. And if that’s off centered, then everyone’s going to feel that. So it is absolutely foundational.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, this imposter syndrome. I think that people are trying to cover it up by being, look, I’m a grinder. I’m here 24 over seven. You know, they’re kind of exchanging that their availability to work. And they’re so focused on their work as covering for any imposter syndrome they might have, instead of just trusting their brain power and what they bring to the table.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. And I think that’s been the biggest shift in this new part of my career, is I’m learning to manage my energy versus my time and to lean into does something feel off in my body? Is this a client I want to work with? Is this an organization I want to work with? Are we aligned? And it’s hard to be honest and hold those boundaries and say, you know, exercise is important to me or, you know, not working till 10:00 at night is important to me because I need my sleep. And so I think and I struggle with that too. Like, I’m not I don’t have it all figured out. But I think the more we can just be honest of what we need to perform at our best, and we start more conversations around that, and we ask our team members if we’re a team leader, like, what do you need to be at your best? Then we do have a chance of this kind of culturally becoming, um, more, more prevalent.

Lee Kantor: Now. Is there a story you can share that maybe illustrates how you work with your clients? Maybe share? Don’t obviously name the name, but what the challenge was that they had when they came to you and how you were able to help them get to a new level.

Jenn Todling: Yeah. So I have one client I’ve been working with for several years, and she came to me and she was younger in her career, and I love working with people young in their career because they’re so hungry. It’s like a sponge, right? You’re trying to create good practices from the start. And she was like, I’ve, you know, I’ve got straight A’s. I got this great job, but I don’t know who I am as a person. Like, I don’t know how like what’s the core essence of who I am. And so aside from, you know, being a strong worker or whatever label you wanted to put on that. And so we’ve done a lot of work at getting to the core of, you know, what are her values? What is important to her in each season of life? How do you take bold leaps to to do when you do know you want to do something? How do you actually make it happen and overcome people pleasing or worrying about what others might think so that you can honor what’s important to you? And we’ve done a lot of work on that. And I will say, you know, we’ve been working together maybe three years now. And what she tells me now is that she can’t even recognize the person she was three years ago. And she has made now like three significant career leaps. Um, you know, different roles, different companies. And now she’s like on, you know, exploring the next chapter. And she you can just see the energy and the confidence that she’s coming to. Even though sometimes she still struggles, but she has so much more understanding of what’s important to her and she’s willing to honor that. And so that’s really powerful to see. Um, and it doesn’t take three years to do that. But for her that this has been quite a journey and it’s been really helpful, I think, to have that support, to know that it’s okay to go and try.

Lee Kantor: So who who is kind of the ideal client for you?

Jenn Todling: Yeah, I mean, I love working with because I’m in sort of this career pivot space. I love working with leaders who are sort of maybe they’ve climbed the ladder. Um, they’ve checked the boxes and they’re sort of like, hey, what’s next? Right? I want to have a fulfilling life. I want more meaning, maybe more play and creative expression. How do I make that happen? I love playing in that space, and so if that’s something that people are struggling with, I find that that can be a really nice space to have a thought partner.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you, what is the best way to connect?

Jenn Todling: Yeah. So if you go to my website, Jen and that’s Jen with two friends, it has all the different ways you can connect with me. And I’m also on Substack. I do a weekly inspirational newsletter and you can connect with me there as well.

Lee Kantor: Well, Jen, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Jenn Todling: Thanks, Leigh. I so appreciate being here.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.