Breaking the Silence: Standing Up Against Workplace Sexual Harassment

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is gonna be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, Business RadioX. If you’re a business coach who’s tired of being a best kept secret, set up a call with Stone Payton at brookstone.com to unlock your perpetual prospect pipeline. Today on the show, we have the attorney owner with Megan Thomas Law, PLLC, Megan Thomas. Welcome.

Megan Thomas: Thanks, Leigh. Thanks so much for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn about your practice. Uh, tell us a little bit about it. How are you serving folks?

Megan Thomas: Sure. So essentially, we provide services for people who have dealt with sexual harassment in the workplace. We found that this was happening all too often, and there were far too few attorneys addressing these issues. We also help people who have dealt with sexual abuse, whether or not it was in the workplace, it could be someplace else. Sadly, that’s also a problem. One disturbing practice area that we have entered into in that realm is with doctors offices, doctors who are either trying to sleep with their patients or doing something inappropriate. It’s very concerning, but we’re seeing a lot of those kinds of cases.

Lee Kantor: So what was kind of the impetus to get you along this path regarding sexual harassment and and the like?

Megan Thomas: Sure. So unfortunately, I dealt with this in my career, especially early on. I dealt with it in law school. I dealt with it right after law school. And at the time I did something I see a lot of my clients do, which is I blamed myself and I really internalized that it was my fault. Now, looking back, I can see that it was just simply someone taking advantage of a power dynamic. And I was a young, ambitious person who wanted to, you know, essentially learn as much as possible. And they were taking advantage of that situation. So at that time, I didn’t really have anyone to turn to. I felt confused. You know, I ended up leaving that job. And, you know, the issue with the law school was also complicated. And, you know, I looked around and my friends, they were dealing with similar things. And I thought to myself, we really need someone who does this kind of work. And eventually I decided to do that.

Lee Kantor: So how prevalent is this?

Megan Thomas: Unfortunately, it’s incredibly prevalent and frankly, the cases are significantly underreported. So we’re seeing just, you know, a lot of business. When I first started this firm, I thought, oh, I’ll do, you know, some sexual harassment. I’ll do some family law or something that I’ve done before on the side. Well, that has not been necessary because we get so many phone calls from people who have been sexually harassed in the workplace.

Lee Kantor: Now, is this like you mentioned, the power dynamic? Is this is is this something kind of generationally that it was just accepted or this is kind of boys being boys. And this is. Ha ha. You know, don’t make a big deal of it. And now it’s it is a big deal. And and now people are holding people accountable.

Megan Thomas: Yeah. So we’re seeing a lot of different things. One thing that we’re seeing is in workplaces with extreme power imbalances, such as medicine, you know, you have a doctor who’s making a lot of money, who’s calling all the shots, and maybe an assistant, you know, who’s not. That is a recipe for a sexual harassment environment because they can take advantage of that power dynamic. Same thing in law firms with lawyers, you know, someone much lower than them on the totem pole. These these people who are lower on the totem pole want to learn and understand how things are done. And in order to do that, they have to rely on this person in a much higher position. Of course, most of the time that’s fine. Most people are great. You don’t need to worry about it. But what we’re finding is that in any situation where there’s extreme power imbalance, we’re seeing a lot of sexual harassment also in male dominated industries. So, you know, you talked about boys clubs. Sure. Law is one of those. Medicine is still one of those. Um. Banking can still be one of those. So. We’re seeing that. And then there are people who, you know, maybe haven’t come to terms with the changes in the law. That’s true too. Um, they’re not understanding that in fact the law has changed such that certain behaviors are no longer allowed in the workplace. So it’s a bit of all the things you touched upon.

Lee Kantor: So can you educate our listeners, like when you said that the law has changed, what does that look like now?

Megan Thomas: So federal law, is that any kind of sexual harassment that is severe or pervasive is not allowed at all. You know that those are kinds of behaviors that are not allowed. Maybe someone’s being repeatedly asked on a date. Maybe they’ve been touched, you know, things like that. Now there are states that have lower laws. New York State, where I am is one of those. And so as of 2019, the standard is anything more than a petty slight or a trivial inconvenience constitutes sexual harassment. That’s so important because that’s even more protective of people who are experiencing this kind of situation. So basically, depending on where you are, you need to know that the federal law is severe, pervasive. That’s the standard. But look at your state law to see if there is a different standard that can help, um, victims and survivors even more.

Lee Kantor: Now, is this a kind of one strike and you’re out situation? What is the, um, like, like what’s a person supposed to do? Is it the first, like, how would you advise someone dealing with something at work?

Megan Thomas: So if you’re dealing with something at work, I would recommend writing it down, keeping any evidence of that. Absolutely. And then sooner than later, call a plaintiff’s employment attorney for most many, I should say maybe not most, but many of these attorneys, your call is free, you know, so there’s no and it’s confidential. So there’s no, um, you know, there’s nothing you have to do or pay or anything like that. It’s just a little bit of your time and you can understand, do I have a claim? You know, maybe I do, maybe I don’t, but at least I know. I’ll tell you, Lee, the people who call our office often tell me, I don’t think I have a claim. I just want to run this by you. And I tell them you’ve had a claim for six months. This is horrible. Um, but we are kind of trained to be quiet and stay quiet, especially women, um, and to not make a big deal about things. And so that’s been a really interesting dynamic too. You know, when my clients finally realize that there’s a problem here, kind of the floodgates are open and they start to really realize what happened to them and how awful it was and how they were controlled or what have you. And it’s just been a really interesting process watching people realize what’s going on now.

Lee Kantor: Is this claim, is it a criminal or is it civil?

Megan Thomas: So this is civil. Um, of course there are criminal standards of sexual assault, things like that. But what we’re really dealing with here is civil sexual harassment.

Lee Kantor: And then so what are the edges of harassment? Like where like you, the person thought that in the example you said, they thought, oh, I’m just like, you know, letting you know this is what happened. And you were like, oh, you’ve had a claim for months. What are kind of some of the parameters of what is and isn’t sexual harassment?

Megan Thomas: Sure. So again, if we’re talking federally, the standard is different. Um, severe and pervasive. So if if someone is looking at that standard really, you know, repeatedly making sexual comments, asking someone out on a date, touching people is inappropriate. And so a lot of my clients will call, they’ll say, you know what? My boss, you know, he makes all these comments, but I just try to ignore it. It makes me uncomfortable. But, you know, he also has been asking me to go to dinner with him. I’ve consented a few times. He kind of tries to kiss me. You know, it’s really uncomfortable, but I just roll with it. I let it go, you know? Do you think I have anything there? And again, I’m like, yeah, you definitely do. Um, so even under that higher federal standard, that would be a case. Now in a state like New York, something even more, um, insignificant could qualify. And that’s really important because, um, right now there is a lot of imbalance in the workplace and it’s really challenging for women to feel comfortable and to have an equal footing in the workplace and to, and to feel like they’re, they’re an equal if they are being sexually harassed, even if it’s something that’s not as pervasive as I was just telling you. So, for example, even if they were just, you know, repeated comments about their attire, that’s a big one. Or their body, you know, hey, like you look really hot or something like that. That makes people uncomfortable. It objectifies that woman. Suddenly she’s not the professional she wants to be in that setting. Suddenly she’s objectified.

Lee Kantor: So how about like, you look nice?

Megan Thomas: Yeah, you look nice. I think that’s fine. You know, I, I don’t think that there’s any problem with that. I think it’s when people get more explicit. Um, it’s also what they’re doing with their face when they say that, you know, I have some clients who say, you know, it’s not really what he says. It’s how he’s looking at me while he says that that can be a problem too.

Lee Kantor: Now, if that’s the issue, does it work in reverse? Like if the if my boss is a woman and or I’m gay or is those is the same the same? The standard is the standard. It doesn’t matter who’s doing it. If there’s an imbalance.

Megan Thomas: That’s correct. That’s always the standard. Um, is that someone shouldn’t be discriminated against on the basis of their sex. They shouldn’t be treated differently. Um, and then they, there’s two different kinds of sexual harassment. There’s quid pro quo, which means this for that. I’ll give you this if you give me that or hostile environment where the environment itself was problematic, um, and subject to a lot of, you know, maybe sexually charged comments or sexual behavior. So those standards apply across the board. You’re absolutely right.

Lee Kantor: And then if your company has kind of an HR department, how quickly do you bring them into that? Is that part of just the okay, you have to check that box in order to get attorneys involved eventually.

Megan Thomas: Um, you don’t have to check that box to get attorneys involved. It depends on how severe the harassment is. Generally, companies do have HR as the first line of defense, but I think if there’s something very severe, we’re seeing that get escalated right to outside legal counsel.

Lee Kantor: Okay. So that’s not a a must do is go to HR. You can handle this externally if you’re more comfortable that way.

Megan Thomas: Okay. So are you saying for the plaintiff, right.

Lee Kantor: Like if I’m being harassed, I don’t necessarily have to even contact HR. I can go to an outside counsel and then they get involved and maybe they contact HR.

Megan Thomas: I see what you’re saying. So what we would recommend is that you call an attorney first, because even if you are going to contact HR, we’re going to coach you through what to say because sometimes their response is a huge part of the problem. And so we want to set our clients up for success. Listen, tell them exactly what happened. Tell them where it happened. We want to make sure that the company has the facts and they have the opportunity to do the right thing. And if they don’t, that’s often when we get involved, right? It depends on the severity, right? If it’s something that’s more minor, that’s kind of the approach we take. Listen, here’s what I would recommend you do. If it’s something more severe, we say, okay, like I can write to HR and tell them what happened. Or I can write to your company and tell them how severe this was. Um, you don’t need to. This isn’t your burden to carry at this time. For some of our clients, they can’t even talk about it. You know, they’re so upset. And so it is a big burden on that person to have to talk to HR again, especially if it’s something more severe. So it really depends on the severity of the claim.

Lee Kantor: Now, is the HR role typically advocating for the business and protecting the business or is it for the employee?

Megan Thomas: It’s for the business. And I think this is a huge misconception right now is that HR you know, people think HR is there for me. They’re not. Hr represents the company period. End of story. They could be the nicest person, but at the end of the day, they do not represent you. They represent the company. And that’s so important for people to understand because they’re not going to give you the advice that you need. And that’s why you need to have an attorney who you’re talking to, who is going to give you the law that’s favorable to you, who is going to explain to you the reality of the situation, the likelihood of success of your claims, etc.. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a client say, well, HR told me I had no case. Well, first of all, that is a huge problem. They’re not an attorney. They shouldn’t be giving you legal advice. Number two, they’re wrong.

Lee Kantor: And, um, how does so many companies are outsourcing HR? How does that further complicate that?

Megan Thomas: It further complicates things because the outside HR doesn’t always understand the dynamics. That’s a problem. But honestly, the internal HR is a problem too because they’re all part of the same culture. You know, they all work for the same company, and especially in a smaller to medium sized organization, they can be a huge part of the problem. We we see that a lot.

Lee Kantor: Now, what are other common kind of mis conceptions people have about this.

Megan Thomas: So another common misconception is that it’s my fault. You know, like I said, that’s how I felt early on. And that’s how a lot of my clients feel. It’s my fault that I’m being treated this way. And furthermore, if I speak up, I’m going to be subject to retaliation. Um, everyone’s going to hate me. You know, all these things. And I tell my clients, you know, not that I can’t promise that you won’t be subject to retaliation by your company. That can happen. But what we’re actually seeing is that people come together for someone who reports sexual harassment, usually everybody kind of knows what’s happening, or at least several people do, and they come together and support my clients in a way that’s really wonderful. And then to say, you know, it’s my fault. Again, we tell our clients, you know, it’s not your fault. There’s no playbook. I have clients all the time saying like, I didn’t do this perfectly. I didn’t respond in the perfect way. Well, you were shocked. You never expected your boss to come on to you like that. So why how would you, you know, why would you be prepared to do or say the exact right thing. So we really coach people to help them understand it’s not their fault. And then also, you know, you can never control what other people do or say, but to not worry about that as much and to tell them what we see is that actually they’re very supported as they go through this process.

Lee Kantor: Now, what do you tell the person who maybe is at a firm maybe let’s I’ll give you this is a it’s based on a true story. Okay. Um, there was a guy at a company and he would say to me, it was obviously not appropriate behavior, but some of the women would play along. And then culturally, I would think it’s not a good idea, but there were kind of willing participants. How do you how do you deal with that when that’s the case?

Megan Thomas: So when participating in some kind of inappropriate sexual.

Lee Kantor: Well, you know, the like, I’m going to frame it as playful sexual content. That was it wasn’t overtly sexual, but it was it wasn’t appropriate to me for in a company, but it was done under a playful frame. And there were willing participants.

Megan Thomas: Yeah. And here’s what I would say to that, Lee, is that, um, consent is convoluted and even consent to engage in, you know, maybe flirtatious behavior in the workplace is convoluted because these women probably felt like they had to do that to maintain their jobs, to get ahead, etc.. And that is something that I think is really important for people to understand. Talk about common misconceptions. You know, women feel like they have to do those things in a way that men really don’t. And I think that’s really a challenge for a lot of women. Um, so, you know, if you see something, say something, you know, that’s what, that’s what would be the ideal thing to do if you’re a bystander in that situation. Um, maybe mention something to your boss or HR. Hey, this is just really kind of making me uncomfortable and I’m concerned about it because probably a lot of those women didn’t want to play along.

Lee Kantor: Now, what do you say to the people who say, look, most people, this is where they meet their significant other in the workplace?

Megan Thomas: Yeah, that’s a tough one. And a lot of people do bring that up to me. And my statement is, look, for most places of business, that’s really not appropriate, especially if it’s a small to medium sized business. You’re working together. Maybe, maybe one of you decides that this isn’t the perfect job for you and you find something else and find something better, and then you can pursue that relationship. I just never recommend it. Listen, are there times when it works? Sure. Especially in a huge company where the two of you are never going to interact. You know, maybe you both work at Amazon or Apple. Yeah, that makes sense to me. But I think the power dynamics in a situation like that are problematic. And what we often see are after people like break up, then they start to bring up claims of, hey, you know what? This was really not consensual. This guy controlled my bonus. He controlled my salary. He controlled how many clients I saw. Um, I don’t feel like this was consensual. I had to do it. So it’s just not a good idea from both sides.

Lee Kantor: And that’s if there’s. What about if they’re kind of peers or in the, in the at the same level.

Megan Thomas: It’s less messy if they’re peers. Um, for sure. And I would look at your company’s policy on dating and see, you know, what you can do. Um, but I know companies generally have policies against it because even if your peers, the break, they always worry about the breakup. The breakup can be messy, right? And then that can be really challenging later on. So I think it’s not really a good idea for a small to medium sized company, but, um, you know, if people are, are really bent on it, they should check their HR policies and make their own decisions, right? That’s all we can do.

Lee Kantor: Now in your work, are you primarily, um, helping the folks that have had some issue, or do you kind of proactively help the organizations to put policies in effect to prevent these things from happening in the first place?

Megan Thomas: So we never help employers, ever. That is something we commit to our clients. And that’s because we don’t ever want a conflict of interest situation in in, you know, the situation where my client calls and says, hey, this happened to me and I say, oh, I can’t represent you because I represented your employer and something else. No, that never happens. Here we are plaintiff’s only focus. We only help the people who have been harmed.

Lee Kantor: And then how does someone typically get to you? Is it something just they have heard about you or is there do you have people that are referral partners for you?

Megan Thomas: We have referral partners. We have a big presence on social media. We’re out in the news all the time making, you know, quoting on articles, all sorts of things, doing podcasts like this. Um, we have a pretty good SEO presence. So people find us that way as well. Word of mouth, you know, former clients are, we are oftentimes referring new clients over. So it’s a little bit of everything.

Lee Kantor: So is there a story you can share about how you’ve helped someone and how you help them get to a new level? Obviously don’t name them or the company, but maybe just share the challenge they came to you with and how you were able to help them get through it.

Megan Thomas: Sure. So we’ve had a couple situations like this, but I’m thinking of one in particular where someone comes to me and says, I’ve called, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten law firms. Everyone’s turned me down. No one will help me. And I listen to their story and I say, you have a case and we’re going to take it on. And then we end up getting a good result for that person. And it’s life changing. Um, that has been incredibly empowering because my clients are, you know, really transformed in a couple of ways. One, someone believes them, right? And that’s really important to someone took their case on, which is more, even more validating. And then three, we’re getting them some money to start over. You know, I always tell my clients, I can never take away what happened to you. Unfortunately, this has already occurred and I’m so sorry that this has occurred. What we can do is try to get you some money to start off in a better place. What happened to you was wrong, and that person should pay for what they did. So it really feels good to be able to tell someone. Yeah, we’re taking your case on and we think we think you have a strong case. And I think it takes, um, someone with experience, personal experience in this, within these situations, unfortunately, you know, kind of turning a bad situation into a good one. Um, to understand kind of why clients act the way they do sometimes, sometimes they’re a little cagey, sometimes they ghost us, you know, all these things that makes sense. There we are trauma informed here. We always think about what our clients are dealing with. And then from the legal side, we really understand the law and we advocate very strongly for our clients.

Lee Kantor: Now, when it comes to settlement, is this something that the companies insurance pays or is this the individual typically has to pay out of pocket?

Megan Thomas: It’s not an individual. Usually. It’s generally the company. As to whether insurance is involved. You know, it depends on the case. Sometimes insurance is involved, sometimes it’s not.

Lee Kantor: And then when you’re compensated, are you compensated just by an hourly fee for the work you do? Or is it like the personal injury where you get a percentage of the settlement.

Megan Thomas: You get a percentage. And that’s actually really important to me because when I started this practice, there was hardly anyone in upstate New York doing this work on contingency. And what that means is you had to put down a huge retainer, five, eight, $10,000 to start a case. And in my mind, that’s a barrier to entry. And so I said to myself, there’s probably so many women who have claims who’ve been wronged and who can’t bring a case because they don’t have tens of thousands of dollars, or they don’t want to put it down. Even if you have it, you’re like, oh my gosh, I might be losing my job or I just did lose my job. It’s not a good time to put down a retainer. So what we do here is there’s no cost at all to start up again. You know, if we accept your case and then we move forward, you know, and even costs along the way, we generally cover those. And at the end, you know, we get paid our percentage and the costs come off the top. But that seems to be a much better situation for most people.

Lee Kantor: And, um, what do you need more of? How can we help you?

Megan Thomas: Yeah. I think always trying to get the word out right. Making sure that people know that they don’t have to endure this in the workplace. And then also that there’s firms that can help, whether it’s our firm or another firm that does this kind of work. Make sure you go with someone who knows the law. Don’t just go with some random family law or criminal attorney, because this is a very niche area of the law. It’s really important that they find an attorney who knows what they’re talking about.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you do your work only in New York State, or is it something that you can do work anywhere in the country?

Megan Thomas: So I if I’m working alone, I work exclusively in New York State. But if I have if there’s a case where I think it’s strong enough that we would want to take it in another state, I can get co-counsel on that case. We also actually have an attorney who just joined us who’s licensed in Connecticut, so we can take cases there. So basically, if there’s a case elsewhere, you know, definitely call us, we will have the conversation. And if we can’t take it, we’ll refer it out. If we can, you know, we’ll figure out a way to make it work.

Lee Kantor: Now, a lot of, um, there was a lot of attention in the entertainment industry when it comes to this issue. Has that improved the situation in there, or do you still see cases in that world as well?

Megan Thomas: Well, we still see a lot of cases in that world, unfortunately.

Megan Thomas: Again, it goes back to that huge power imbalance. Whenever we see a huge power imbalance, we see sexual harassment because there’s people out there who think that they’re above the law and that the laws don’t apply to them. And in the entertainment industry, it’s even worse because there’s a bubble around these celebrities. Um, and of, yes, you know, a bubble of yes, I call it, it’s like everyone around them is telling them yes, yes, yes, yes. No one ever tells them no. And when they want something that’s not appropriate, you know, sometimes they’re getting it. And it’s really upsetting because there are other people in the room in the, in the, in the, you know, the vicinity who know better. And they’re not standing up. They’re afraid to stand up, whatever it is. Um, but we’re seeing a lot of it, a lot of abuse in that area for sure.

Lee Kantor: Is there kind of is there a top types of industries you work in usually?

Megan Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I think again, anywhere where there’s a big power imbalance, right.

Lee Kantor: You mentioned law, law, medicine.

Megan Thomas: Yeah. Which is kind of crazy, right? My own my own career.

Lee Kantor: They know the rules. They’re the ones who memorized all the rules.

Megan Thomas: They know the rules.

Megan Thomas: But I’m telling you, you know, they think they’re above the law. And again, it’s not everyone. It’s it’s most people are great people. Most lawyers I know are incredible, hardworking, ethical humans. But they’re it only takes one. And what we’re seeing with the people who are abusing the system, they’re systematically abusing the system. And by the time I get someone, this person has already abused so many people. It’s really, really sad. So I really commend anyone who stands up and finally puts a stop on these people and holds them accountable. That is so brave to do. It’s not easy.

Lee Kantor: And it’s one of those things where if it starts happening and they’re not getting in trouble, then it becomes accepted behavior.

Megan Thomas: That’s right. And that’s when we are able to attach liability to the companies to. Right. If it’s if this is happening and the company is unaware of it. It’s a little harder to attach liability depending on the facts and circumstances. But when the company knew and turned a blind eye. Let me tell you, we you know, we really go after them.

Lee Kantor: And if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, what’s the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Megan Thomas: Sure. So it’s mkt-law.com that you can also find me on Instagram, Megan Thomas Law. You can look us up on LinkedIn as well. We would be happy to have a conversation. Thank you so much.

Lee Kantor: Well, Megan, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Megan Thomas: Thanks so much. We appreciate you.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.