Anne Hamer with Taylor, Bean & Hamer

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Stone Payton: Welcome to the High Velocity radio show where we celebrate top performers producing better results in less time. Stone Payton here with you this afternoon and you guys are in for a real treat. Please join me in welcoming to the broadcast with Taylor, Bean and Hamer, the lady herself. Ms. Anne Hamer, how are you?

Anne Hamer: Hi, Stone. Thanks for having me.

Stone Payton: Oh, it is a delight to have you on the show. I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation. I have got a thousand questions. I know we’re not going to get to them all, but I think a good place to start would be if you could articulate for me and our listening audience, mission, purpose. What are you and your firm really out there trying to trying to do for folks?

Anne Hamer: Well, Stone, you know, I’m a family law attorney and that’s a nice way to put it. I’m a divorce lawyer, But of course, we do care about the whole family. It’s not just getting people divorced. There’s children involved oftentimes. And once people do divorce, they can still be issues that come up and we handle those. I would say that our firm purpose, obviously, is to help our clients get through the divorce, create the kind of life they want to see for themselves after the divorce, reestablish themselves financially career wise, create a new parenting paradigm that works for them. And that’s that’s what we do. We like to we like to think of ourselves as holistic divorce lawyers because we want all that to happen and we want to be as integral a part of that as we can because we have so much experience with it. My personal purpose, ever since I became divorced, is to help people through what I personally found was the most challenging experience I’ve ever had, literally the most challenging experience of my life. And once I went through it as a divorce lawyer, I changed my entire attitude about my clients, the way I practice law, my commitment to it. I just exponentially felt much more committed. And I do believe that it’s my life’s work to help people get through a divorce and get on to the new and great part of life that’s coming after.

Stone Payton: Well, you’ve touched on part of it already, but what is the full back story? How does one find themselves in a position of being an attorney and specializing in this particular arena? What was your path?

Anne Hamer: You know, I’m glad you asked me that because I was at a conference this weekend talking with a lot of different women, divorce lawyers in particular. I think women are drawn to the divorce law profession because it’s something that works well with a lot of other responsibilities. You’re not staying up all night at a big firm working on taking a company public. You’re not getting ready for trial every other day where you’re going to be in trial seven, eight weeks on some kind of SEC action class action lawsuit or something like that. And you can be the master of your own destiny. With regard to how many clients you take, how much you want to work, what what kind of complex complexity to to bring to your cases. If you want to do the high asset, high conflict divorces like I do, that’s an option. You certainly get remunerated very well for that. But if you want to take more of a small town low key approach, you can you can do that too. So it’s it’s been a great career for me as a as a woman. I think the men who go into it, you know, it’s very financially lucrative and you can build your practice to be as big as you want it or keep it as small as you want it and serve your clients in a in an easygoing manner. Or you can be a bulldog and, and make it super intense. So it gives you a lot of flexibility. And of course you can you can open up your own shop, be your own boss, and you don’t have to work in a big firm. And I think that for me is one of the big, big draws.

Stone Payton: So let’s dive into the work a little bit. I’m really interested to know about conversations or like the I’m from the training consulting world, so I would call it an engagement. It’s probably a different word for you, but like those first few conversations, like with the early part of your work with a client, how does it how do you start?

Anne Hamer: You know, it’s so hard. I had two initial consultations yesterday, and I can tell you both of them after I get done just listening. It really takes it out of me because when they come in, they’re so emotional. There’s always tears at men or women. People are just so disappointed with with the thing that’s happening to them, whether they’re the one who caused it or whether they’re the one who wants it or they don’t. It’s just even if, you know, you want to get out of a marriage, it’s. Still horrible for you to do so. So those initial conversations, I start by just listening and trying to understand the emotional framework behind what’s going on, and then I try to give them some peace of mind to what the process is going to look like. But it is very hard for people to take their whole life and shove it down the funnel of the law and have attorneys come get involved and dig into their personal finances and their their personal choices in life. It’s just it’s heart wrenching to watch it happen to them. I try to make it as painless as possible, but it’s like surgery.

Stone Payton: So on the other side of that coin, you’ve been at it a while. I can tell that you do have a passion for the work. I can see it in your eyes. I can hear it in your in your voice. What do you find at this point? What are you finding the most rewarding? Like what? What do you enjoy the most about the work at this point in your career?

Anne Hamer: I’d say there’s two things. I absolutely love it when I get someone divorced and they’re done and they’re happy and they know that they’ve got some financial backing to go forward and either recreate their life or start building a new. I love being able to push people into that next step. So yeah, that’s that would be one of the things. But I also really enjoy the strategy behind it. I love the strategy behind it. I love being able to meet with the clients, explain the law to them. Sometimes they don’t like what they have to hear, but we do have to work within that. The parameters of what’s legal, what courts have done, what courts will continue to do. And I do enjoy meeting with them and getting to discuss that with them. And we strategize about how to best use their resources because some people don’t want 120, 200, literally $500,000 trial. Some people do. And and working with them to figure out how much are they willing to fight, how much do they want me to negotiate so we don’t have to spend their resources that way? That to me is very rewarding as well. If I can get them the result they want that way, it’s super rewarding experience. The more money I can save for them, honestly, the better. I love to try a lawsuit. I love to be in front of a judge. I love to get ready for court. All that is is very appealing to me as part of my career. But looking at my clients in the eye to tell them you probably shouldn’t spend your money this way is something that I that I take very seriously as well.

Stone Payton: I got to believe that at least early in the client relationship, you run across probably pretty consistently some pretty widely held. I don’t know what the right word myths, misconceptions, you know, maybe it’s I can tell you this. Everything I know about the law is what I see on television, right? Like Perry Mason or Law and Order. Are there some kind of consistent prevailing misconceptions or things that people just that’s just not how it works, guys kind of thing?

Anne Hamer: I think so, yeah. I think and I think people make up their own as they go along, you know, while it’s just not fair that I have to pay that alimony, well, it’s not fair in your mind, but it is very fair to this judge who’s going to make you do it. It’s not fair that I’m going to have to drive carpool two days a week and he’s only going to have to drive it one day a month or whatever that is. They make those up in their own mind. And I do think. Our judges really encouraged the clients to come to court. I think it’s something they maybe have started recently teaching in Judge School, but if the clients would get into the courthouse and see how long we actually just sit around waiting for the hearing to start, how much money they’re spending to have me down there waiting for the judge to tell me. Well, Ms.. Hammer, you know, I don’t agree. So you can just go back and tell your client no. It’s very helpful for them to see that. It’s not like suits. Okay? It’s not all it’s not all fun and games.

Anne Hamer: A lot of it’s sitting around. You know, you have to get to know your judges. You have to get to know opposing counsel. I think one thing my clients always think is that I’m supposed to hate opposing counsel. It’s just not true. We all work together, right? So we see each other. It’s like Wiley Coyote and that sheepdog on the cartoon. Well, you’re down there in the courthouse day after day. We sit next to each other. We go up on different cases every day. So we don’t hate the other attorney. I’ve learned not to be super nice to him in front of my clients because the clients think you’re working behind their back, things like that. And that’s just not the case. But when I watch suits or when I watch Law and Order, you know, you see the DA and the public defender kind of squaring off and we do that in front of the judge. But the rest of the time it’s pretty low key, pretty low key. Not everybody now can get along, but most people do.

Stone Payton: So this might be a little tactical and too case specific, but I am curious because it represents a situation I could be in. I certainly hope not. But privately owned business. Like how do you divide something like that up or do you evaluate it and then give a cash alternative? Like how does that kind of stuff work?

Anne Hamer: It’s pretty tricky. You evaluate it and you get to a cash alternative. Now, sometimes we have husbands and wives who work together.

Stone Payton: Oh my.

Anne Hamer: And oh yeah, we do. And they can continue to work together. I’ve had I’ve had husbands and wives continue to work together in the business post-divorce without problem. It’s but but typically we go to an expert who will give you a valuation for the business. The hard part is when, when and I was working with a client on this yesterday, when I’ve got a client who needs a lot of cash resources to be able to run their business, they’ve got to have that cash flow and now they’re going to have to buy somebody out. Where does the money come from? And so we can kind of structure those over time. It’s a buyout over time because a lot of people do not have the cash just sitting around without selling their house or liquidating some other big asset a lot of people do. You’d be surprised. But yes, with a with a closely held business and there may have never been an appraisal done. There may have never been an offer made on that business. That person probably never had an intent to sell it or thought about what it was worth. Another thing people who own their own businesses need to think about is the kind of expenses you’re running through. Your business will come up. So I’ve had a client come in with nothing but the cell phone and his advertising running through the business. I love that guy. Right. Because he’s so on the up and up. But a lot of people are running their full on wardrobe or their mortgage or all sorts of things that go through that. I say, well, that’s going to come out. I mean, the opposing counsel is going to see it. So you do need to be a little careful about how you run, how you’re operating your business and who’s going to be looking at those documents if you find yourself in a divorce situation.

Stone Payton: So if you’re finding yourself in a divorce situation, and particularly if you’re in business, but I guess this would apply to anybody, is there some rule of thumb or what’s practical in terms of a set of financial goals related to the settlement or related to the divorce? Because I mean, I’d like to think that I just want everybody to win. And, you know, and let’s get through this. But should it be like, I don’t know.

Anne Hamer: Well, sure. So it just depends which side I’m on. If I’m representing the breadwinner, my goal is to keep them as as wealthy as I can, make sure they come out as close to 5050 as possible. This is assuming it’s a long term marriage and that all the assets are marital and set them up so that they aren’t strapped for cash in the future so they can rebuild, especially if they do own their own business because there’s child support to be considered too, on top of alimony if alimony is going to get paid or if there’s some long term payout that that was a part of the property division. Now, if I’ve got the non income earning spouse or the low income earning spouse, obviously I have a very different strategy, which is going to be let’s get her as much as we can and not to be sexist, but still in this day in America, that typically is the woman, not always any more. And women are driving divorce rates. Now, I think I just saw a statistic. Maybe 60 to 70% of divorces are instigated by women now, which they never were that high in the past because women are making their own money. So when you have a divorce where the parties are in economic parity, it could be either side, probably more likely the woman who’s going to initiate it. But my my goal, of course, we always think our goal is to get it done right. And 5050 is pretty close to right in most situations or maybe a little bit different depending on the earning potential and the earning power. But obviously my goal is to set everybody up for success when they get done.

Stone Payton: So how does the whole sales and marketing thing work for this profession and a practice like yours? Like do you find yourself or is there someone in in the firm that is going out and shaking the trees or is it all just referral based business or how does that work?

Anne Hamer: So it’s crazy. I mean, it’s to me being in the marketing and I’m the head of the marketing for our firm. It has changed so much. You know, my my law partner, Dan Taylor, has got 43 reported opinions at the Court of Appeals. He’s been doing this for 43 years. He’s had so many wins. His business all used to just come in off of his reputation. For younger lawyers like myself and my law partners, it’s a different deal nowadays. You’ve got to get your face out there. You have to be known. Your website has to be up to date. It cannot look old and fuddy duddy. You need to be getting in front of the public all the time talking about it, you know, and cities are so big and so diverse now that it’s it’s hard to just say, oh, I went up to the country club and I met a guy who’s getting divorced and he sent me, you know, his business. That’s just that still happens, but not the volume that it used to or in order to bring in the volume. You can’t practice law that way anymore. That’s how I’d put it. But the marketing is just crazy. I mean, you’re marketing yourself and the way we bill is by our time.

Anne Hamer: So if a client wants to hire me and they want me working on their case, that doesn’t mean my associate and that doesn’t mean my law partner and that doesn’t mean my legal assistant or my paralegal. They want access to me, but I only have 24 hours in a day. And some of those I sleep. So it’s kind of hard to to spread yourself around. And that’s where I see most with these sort of celebrity type. I call them celebrities because they’re such good lawyers and they’re and they’re so well known. But you do reach a saturation point where you just can’t give that attention to that many more clients. So the goal there is to build your firm to be giving the quality work that you would do yourself and give that to your clients. And your whole firm becomes known for doing quality work like that. And people feel very comfortable going to you knowing I might not get to talk to her, but once a week. But everybody else I’m going to have interactions with is somebody that I feel has my best interests at heart.

Stone Payton: Well, what’s coming into focus for me? I’m so glad I asked the question because I don’t think it really dawned on me, Well, you have to be really excellent at practicing your craft. Oh, by the way, you got to run this business, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne Hamer: And that’s a surprise for a lot of young lawyers when they go out on their own. I knew it was coming when I went on my own, and I wish I’d done it sooner. But at the same time, the startup is, you know, from from 0 to 60, you got to be ready to hit it hard with the websites and the and the constant information going out to the public on all the different ways you you market yourself. You can’t just go to the Rotary Club once a year and give a speech on updates on divorce. That’s just not it anymore. So yeah, it’s it’s intense. Running running your own law firm is very different from just getting to write the briefs and deal with the clients. It’s a whole different ballgame.

Stone Payton: Have you had. I’m sure the answer is yes. I guess I’d ask tell me a little bit about. But have you had the benefit of one or more mentors along this journey that kind of helped you navigate this terrain, especially early on?

Anne Hamer: I have I have I’ve had some really good mentors. I worked with Bob Walker at Bass Berry Sims when I first started out in the litigation department, and we had very, very high end litigation. I learned how to conduct myself with clients and with other fellow attorneys in a professional manner that I think gives clients a lot of confidence. And that was sort of an old school white shoe firm, and it was a great way to learn how to practice law in what I believe is the way it should be done. And after that, I went to work for a plaintiff’s attorney, Pat artist. And Pat was just nuts. You know, we were flying in private planes around the country trying to sue Ford Motor Company and and GM and all the big car companies. And that was a lot of aggression in in practice. And I like to learn in that side of it, too. So I would say yes to to be able to get those kind of mentors who were so good at what they did in very different types of litigation gave me a lot of understanding about how I would want to conduct myself when I had my own practice.

Stone Payton: And now that you do, you probably find yourself in some kind of mentoring relationships or at least filling that role to some degree now at being the mentor, right?

Anne Hamer: I do. I do. And I still have my own mentors because I work with two fabulous partners, Dan Taylor and John Bean. They’re both just such quality attorneys. And so for me, every day that I come in, I think I’ve got to live up to that caliber of practice. And and we do expect it from everybody in the firm. And I feel like everybody in the firm brings that to the table, whether it’s a legal assistant or a paralegal or another associate. I feel like they all understand that that’s how we practice here and that’s how it’s expected to be. And they they enjoy working that way.

Stone Payton: Before we wrap, I’m going to switch gears on you a little bit, if we could. I’m curious to know, and I don’t know where you would find the time and the energy, but I’m curious to know about what, if any, passions outside the scope of your work that my listeners know that I enjoyed. I enjoy hunting, fishing and traveling. That’s that’s that’s my thing. Is there anything you have a tendency to nerd out about that’s just well outside the scope of, of legal work?

Anne Hamer: I totally nerd out about golf. I’ve gotten so into it. I’ve got I’ve got all sorts of new clubs that I’m in love with. I’ve got a little four hybrid that is that I love and a new non-wood that’s teeny tiny. It’s so cute. And I’m killing it with that thing right now. So I’m in love with that. So golf is my nerd out and I do love to travel, but and I do find the time to do it. But it’s starting to get to be it’s going to be less and less time traveling, I’m afraid, unless I can come up with someplace to go where they’re also doing legal work.

Stone Payton: But I mean, it’s important, I think I think you would agree to I call it white space to those of us who own businesses and have that leadership role or just running just even a solo shop. I mean, you got to create a little white space and to be able to recharge and regain perspective, Right?

Anne Hamer: I agree. And if you don’t, you’re really going to burn out. I mean, I think people especially I’m 56, I see a lot of people around my age burning out. I had ten years that I took off in the middle when I was a stay at home mom. And I think I feel like that’s sort of the the Venus and Serena Williams tennis model. You know, they take some time off and do what they want to do. And then they were able to come back and have really successful careers later in in life later than any other woman tennis player ever was able to accomplish. So I do think the time off is key. And and you’ve got to do it or you’re not going to have the the bandwidth for your clients. Not in my not in my kind of practice. You’re just not.

Stone Payton: Was that a tough restart, like being out ten years and then coming back in that had to have some challenges associated with it.

Anne Hamer: It was it was really hard. And I will say it was very difficult, but I was so afraid if I didn’t go back that computers were just going to take over the whole thing and I wasn’t going to know how to use them. So I’m glad I did. You know, we’re so challenged now with AI coming up, how how is that going to affect our practice and what’s going to happen? I’ll just say we got to embrace it and learn it because it’s coming. You know, computers have definitely made the practice of law easier, but AI is coming and it’s going to change the whole game. So if you’re not in it now to win it and figure that stuff out, you’re going to be left behind. My thinking that’s the next big challenge our legal profession is going to face is how to harness that and use it the right way for our clients.

Stone Payton: I’m sure you’re right about that. I’d love to to leave our listeners with if we could. I call them Pro Tips, but what I’m after is just a couple practical, actionable things. Someone who may be in this situation or may be headed, you know, down this road, something to that. They should be reading, you know, some some some do’s, some don’ts or just anything even like for me, I don’t even know that I would even know what questions to ask an attorney I was considering engaging like I would be clueless. You know, any tips on any of that would be fantastic for me. Well, hopefully not for me, but.

Anne Hamer: Hopefully not for you. Yeah, sure. In fact, I’m glad you asked me that, because my. And this is true. This isn’t a setup. My book just came out this week on Amazon. It’s called I know, I know. I’m So excited. It’s called Fearless Freedom. And I wrote it for that very reason so that people could read it and understand the process of divorce before they go meet with their first divorce lawyer so they know what to pull together for the high income or, you know, the higher income earner and a family. If you’re miserable, go ahead and get out, because the longer you’re staying in that marriage, you’re just increasing the big Ole alimony target on your back. For the low income earner. I would say get your ducks in a row financially. Find out where the money is, find out how much there is. Figure out if you need to go get a job. I have people come to me and say, well, I’ve never worked and I know I’m going to get alimony. And I think my best friend told me I shouldn’t go get a job. I never encourage anybody not to work. It won’t matter. The judges are going to want to see you trying to do something. When I’m in court and I’m representing a woman who’s working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet.

Anne Hamer: My judge is going to probably bend over backwards to get her whatever she needs. So I always encourage everybody, you know, go get what you need. Do you need to get finish your nursing degree? Do you need to get whatever skills you’re going to you’re going to need to move on with your life. Go ahead and do it while you’re married. And it’s getting paid for with marital money. If you’re really serious, you can make a plan to do it. If you read my book, you’ll know the financial information you need to pull together for your lawyer so they can look at your financial situation and give you some pretty good advice about that. But the other advice I’d give everybody know your finances don’t have a spouse who’s got a secret credit card you don’t know anything about. You need to know about that. Don’t let your spouse be taken out a lock on the house that you don’t know about you or don’t sign the tax return without reading it and looking at it and asking the accountant questions. You may not be ready for divorce, but you might be living in a marriage where your finances aren’t buttoned up. And the first thing you need to do is understand your 100% marital financial picture before you make any decisions about leaving. That would be my best advice.

Stone Payton: So what was the name of this book again?

Anne Hamer: It’s called Fearless Freedom. It’s called Fearless Freedom A Divorced Divorce Lawyers Guide to Divorce. So I kind of got divorced in there a lot. Maybe it’ll be an easy search term, but you can get it off my website. You can get it on Amazon. And and it literally just came out this week. I’m so proud and so excited. Well, I’m.

Stone Payton: Excited for you. So talk a little bit about the experience of writing a book. Did you find that some parts of it came together super easy, slam dunk and other parts like you struggled with a little bit?

Anne Hamer: Totally, Yes. The the parts that came easy to me were writing about the legal part of it. You know how to get your financial information, put together, how to meet with your attorney and talk to them about your goals, all that. That’s what I do, right? But the harder part was I did want it to be a self-help book because when I got divorced, several people brought me really good self-help books and I thought, I’d love to just put this all together and also have it be a normal self-help book and not goofy, not weird advice like go get a cat or do some gardening or stuff that I read that I thought, I’m not doing that. I might play more golf. So I, I want it to be both. And the self-help part is, is not natural to me to write or to research. So that that stuff took a little bit longer, like a list of things to remember to treat yourself better, stuff like that, that that was a little bit harder to do. But I hope it’s a great resource. I really think I really think it is. And I’ve had some fabulous attorneys review it for me and they loved it, so that made me feel really good about it. I hope it’s something that can make other people’s divorce situation better and easier.

Stone Payton: Well, it sounds like it’s a marvelous resource, and I want to make sure that our listeners are able to tap into your work and connect with you. I want them to have access to this book. I want them to be able, if they wanted to reach out and have a conversation with you or someone in the firm. So let’s leave them with with all of those coordinates, whatever you feel like is appropriate. Any of that contact info?

Anne Hamer: Okay, sure. I think the easiest way to get a hold of me is my website. It’s Ann Hammer law.com and it’s got links to to contact me. It’s got links to my firms and it will have a link to the book. So and it also has a lot of resources on the website as well as and when I say resources, I mean spreadsheets you can fill out that have your financial information on them. You can work on your monthly expenses. You can start coming up with your own division of property, things that let you really start thinking about what what your next steps are going to be if you do decide to go through a divorce.

Stone Payton: Fantastic. Well, and it has been an absolute delight having you on the show. Thank you for sharing your insight, your perspective. Keep up the good work. Don’t be a stranger. Keep us posted when you write your next book or whatever the next big thing is, or you you win that pro-am.

Anne Hamer: That’ll be the next thing.

Stone Payton: But this has been fantastic and we sincerely appreciate you.

Anne Hamer: Thank you, Stone. I really loved.

Stone Payton: It. My pleasure. All right. Until next time. This is Stone Payton for our guest today, Anne Hammer with Taylor Bean and Hammer. And everyone here at the Business RadioX family saying we’ll see you in the fast lane.