Executive and Career Coach Terry McDougall

Intro: [00:00:04] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for high velocity radio.

Stone Payton: [00:00:15] Welcome to the High Velocity Radio show where we celebrate top performers producing better results in less time. Stone Payton here with you this morning. You guys are in for a real treat. Please join me in welcoming to the broadcast executive and career coach, author speaker with Terry McDougall Coaching, the lady herself, Ms.. Terry McDougall. How are you?

Terry McDougall: [00:00:40] Stone I am great. It’s really good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stone Payton: [00:00:44] Well, it’s an absolute delight to have you on the show. I got a ton of questions. We won’t get to them all, but maybe a good place to start. If you could give us a little bit of an overview, mission, purpose. What are you and your team really out there trying to do for folks?

Terry McDougall: [00:01:01] Well, we’re really there to help people not only be successful at work, but be happy and satisfied at work because way too many people are paying too high a price for their what I call quote unquote, success, because they may look successful on paper, but a lot of times they’re crying on the inside and it doesn’t have to be that way. So I’m here to help people be successful and happy at work.

Stone Payton: [00:01:28] So I don’t know if the right word is balance or overlap or integration, but I’d love to get your perspective on this relationship, this dynamic of professional success and personal happiness.

Terry McDougall: [00:01:44] Yeah. You know, for a lot of high achievers, which is typically the people that I work with, they have been, quote unquote, successful by paying attention to what everybody else expects of them. And overall, after time, they actually get addicted to that external validation and basically forget to actually check in with themselves. They kind of lose that connection with their own inner wisdom. And I believe that once once you can pay attention to what other people want from you. I mean, that’s what we need to do to be successful, successful at work, but also check in with ourselves to realize like, okay, is this what I want to be doing? Is this the best way to be doing it? Should I be speaking up, you know, really leaning into what they actually know and what they’re really about? Because I think for many of the people I’ve encountered and I would say that this was me for a while as well, that they can be so connected to what other people want that they lose themselves. And that’s a very sad place to be. So you’ve really got to pay attention to what other people want, but also be connected with yourself and your own purpose, your own wants, and your own authentic authenticity.

Stone Payton: [00:03:06] So this book, and I think it’s your most recent winning the game of work, what compelled you to commit these ideas to paper and and get this book out? There was was there a catalytic moment for you or was this kind of part of the plan all along?

Terry McDougall: [00:03:23] Well, I suppose that I had a little seed planted in the back of my mind many years ago that maybe I had a book in me. But it wasn’t it wasn’t something that happened overnight. It was really a reflection of my own career. I come from a blue collar background. My dad was a union guy, but I was put myself on. My parents wanted me to be on a different track going to college, and I wanted to work in more of the corporate world. And I can remember in my first job calling my dad and saying, Dad, you know when to ask for a raise. I don’t know how to do it. And he said, Well, I don’t know what to tell you because the union negotiates my raises. And I was like, okay, I guess he’s not going to be helpful. So I just started paying attention to what was going on around me and trying to figure out how do I advance here in the workplace. Because I’d been a good student and I just kind of thought when I went into the workplace that I’d just do the same thing at work that I did at school. And I just found that I wasn’t really moving ahead.

Terry McDougall: [00:04:23] And so it just occurred to me that there’s some unwritten rules of the workplace that honestly, nobody really tells you. And if you go into it thinking like, Oh, I’ll just, you know, I’ll be a good girl, I’m going to keep my nose clean, my head down, do my work naturally. They’ll they’ll see talent and they’ll all advance. That’s not how it works. And it took me a while to figure that out. And I actually was lucky to have some great mentors. And I also at a couple of key junctures in my career, I hired coaches and it really helped me a lot. And I started as I got into leadership, mentoring and coaching people under me so that they weren’t basically like banging their head into the wall, that they were like stepping back and saying, What’s going on here? How do I want to navigate? And so I really wanted to share those unwritten rules that I had learned the hard way in my book. And so that’s that’s really what it’s all about is just what are those unwritten rules of how you get ahead at work that nobody ever tells you?

Stone Payton: [00:05:28] So what is the the framework, the structure of the book? How did you choose to to lay it out? What kind of journey did you create for the reader?

Terry McDougall: [00:05:37] Well, basically, we start with the goal. You know, what’s your goal? You’re never going to get there unless you get clarity on what the goal is. And then once you have a goal, you start to think like, Well, okay, what are all the ways that I can get there? What’s the roadmap look like to get ahead? I mean, and I use the analogy, you know, if you’re in Georgia and you want to go to California, you know, at least you need to head west, right? But you can map, map that journey out in a number of different ways. And so really starting to imagine what are the different ways that you can get to that goal. And then a lot of times when we’re putting the roadmap together, we discover like there’s things that we don’t know, right? There’s skill gaps. Maybe there’s we need to know different people. So putting a plan in place to fill in those or bridge those skill gaps. And then really also and really importantly, shifting the mindset to not a fixed mindset, but more of a possibility mindset because. If we have a goal and we don’t believe it’s possible, it will not happen. Period. And honestly, like whatever it is that you think you want could land in your lap. And if you don’t believe it’s possible, you’ll just brush it off and keep complaining about how you never get what you want. So, you know, to me, I feel like. Getting clarity on the goal, believing the goals possible and starting to take action like even little baby steps. I’ve seen amazingly miraculous things happen in an amazingly short period of time with a lot of clients I’ve worked with when they’ve gotten those things in place.

Stone Payton: [00:07:25] So I’m sure the framing was a was a conscious choice to use the term or the phrase game of work. Can you speak more to why you made that choice?

Terry McDougall: [00:07:36] Yeah, because I think that a lot of people look at work and they’re like, well, I know what work is. I mean, we’re surrounded by quote unquote work. We go into a store and people work there. You go to the doctor. The doctor works there. We think we know what work is all about. And the reality is most people never really ask, what’s the objective like for the business they know for themselves? Like, I’m going to go give them some of my time and I’ll get money in exchange. But the reality that there’s a lot more to work and I guess if you get right down to the the basics, there’s really only three ways to add value at work. You’re either helping them make money, save money or reduce risk. And many people don’t look at work that way. They just are like, hey, I showed up, I was here, my butt was in a seat, where’s my paycheck? And then they get upset when they’re not advancing or they’re not. And I’m not trying to be negative about this or anything, but nobody ever tells you like you are here to create value for the organization. And if you can really look at and even if you’re emptying the trash cans or answering the phone, if you can put it in the context of how am I adding value, that’s going to give you clarity about how to keep advancing and keep winning the game of work.

Stone Payton: [00:09:01] So did the experience of writing the book itself. Did some of it come together real easy for you and then other chapters or other parts, more of a struggle or what was that like?

Terry McDougall: [00:09:13] Well, it’s funny because I left my corporate job in 2017 and right around that time, I mean, that’s a big that’s a big transition. I had been working in the corporate world for 30 years and to decide to take that big leap out of the airplane and hope that your parachute is going to work, it’s a little bit scary, but I guess that just got me thinking about all the lessons that I learned. And I actually started blogging and I blogged pretty much, I think like every other week for close to two years and just different ideas, you know, little, you know, 500 to 1000 word blog posts. And somewhere along the line, somebody opened my eyes up to the fact that if I if I downloaded all of those, that I might have enough for a book. And so and then I guess this is serendipity, but a friend of mine called and said, I just joined a book writing program, and I put two and two together. And I was like, I have all these blogs. My friend joined this book writing program, so I decided to join that too. And so I had a lot of content, but there’s still a lot of work that goes into thinking like, okay, I’ve got, I think I had. You know, 40 or 50 blog posts and like, how do you put those together into a narrative and, and put a framework in place that that was kind of hard. And I also think that I know that it’s a little bit scary writing a book because, you know, you worry that like you put so much effort into it and you hope that it’s going to be helpful to people and you don’t you’re not doing it for naught. So I’d say that probably one of the hardest things about writing the book was just overcoming my own fears about, you know, whether I had something valuable to share or not. And it’s been received well. So I think that it was worth me fighting those demons to get it out there.

Stone Payton: [00:11:13] All right. So let’s talk about the work itself a little bit. The the practice. What does it look like? Maybe paint the picture like someone like me if I, you know, I’m listening to this or I do read part of the work. And I think, you know what? I think I might want to work with Terry, particularly like in the early stages of that relationship. Can you kind of paint that picture for us? What does that look like?

Terry McDougall: [00:11:37] Well, I mean, first of all, we we always start out I do a free exploratory call with people, you know, just to hear them out, to hear like, okay, what’s going on right now? What’s working? What’s not working? You know, are you clear on what it is that you want? And honestly, I’ll tell you, a lot of times people aren’t. And that’s okay, you know, because part of working with the coaches is helping get clarity on those goals. But I have a questionnaire that I give to people. Will We’ll spend that first session just getting to know each other me like really delving in more to learn more about them. And then we basically use that framework that I talked about. I’d say that sometimes people may feel unhappy in their job and really they they know they want to stay in it, but they want to develop the skills to be more successful. They want to be more effective and not be on the verge of burnout. That’s that’s one type of person that I work with. I’d say the another type of person that I work with is one that I call should I stay or should I go? Like that old Clash song and where they’re like, I’m not sure if this is a fit anymore. And I’d say that once we start working together and we really focus on that goal, I’d say about half the time they decide, Yes, I want to stay here.

Terry McDougall: [00:13:00] And it moves over into that. Like I need to develop the skills and the mindset to be successful in this, this role or look for other opportunities within this company. That’s a good fit for me. And about half the time they are like, No, I’ve outgrown this place, or I’m starting to see it clearly. It’s just not a good fit for me. And then and then the third group of people are people that know that they want to leave, or maybe they’ve been laid off or they’re rejoining the workplace. And I’ll just work with them to help get clarity on what’s the right fit for them, help them develop those skills, really start getting them networking to to see where they can get help in looking for a job. I know for so many people like LinkedIn and indeed those are those are great places to go to look. But, you know, way too many people spend too much time expecting that, hey, if I perfect my LinkedIn profile, that the perfect job will fall in my lap. And that ain’t the way it works. You know, people hire people. And the more conversations that you have and they don’t, it doesn’t have to be calling somebody and saying, hey, do you have a job? Are you hiring? It’s really about, hey, I’m starting to look at the next chapter in my career.

Terry McDougall: [00:14:22] What you’re doing looks interesting or reconnecting with people that you’ve worked with in the past. And, you know, I can’t tell you how many people I’ve worked with where just a little outreach, a conversation results in a new job. It’s amazing, you know, because people hire people and they they typically like to hire people that they know, like and trust. And if you’ve worked with somebody, you’ve gone to college with them or you grew up next door to them, they know you. And a lot of times we’ll put in a good word. Or they may even be the hiring manager. So. Yeah. Just, you know, I’m all about encouraging people to believe that what they want is possible and start taking action. And it is honestly, really incredible what can happen when when people do that. You know, I’m not magic. You know, I just. I just encourage people. Like, I believe that the people that I work with totally have it within them to accomplish their goals. But sometimes it’s hard to see that. I always say you can’t read the label from inside the bottle, and I hold the mirror up so that they can see themselves more clearly and gain the confidence to do the things that they’re totally capable of doing.

Stone Payton: [00:15:45] This must be and I don’t mean to suggest for one moment that your work doesn’t have its own set of challenges. I’m sure it does, but it must be incredibly rewarding work.

Terry McDougall: [00:15:58] It is very rewarding when people get it and they start moving down, moving down the path. It can be a little frustrating, but totally understandable. I’m not complaining at all. You know, when when people are are stuck in that fear loop, right, where they just keep hitting the same brick wall and and, you know, when when people when all of us, any of us are thinking negatively or thinking like, oh, I’ll never get the job. Or, you know, I work so hard and I’m not getting promoted no matter what I do. Like, that is very natural. All of us do it and we do it to try to protect ourselves from disappointment. And, you know, it’s okay to do that for a little while. But the bottom line is that, you know, when we’re all cocooned up in our safe little place of like, I’m never going to get what I want, nothing’s going to happen there. Right. So when we. You know, find the courage to take even a baby step outside of our safe little comfort zone. That’s when things get set in motion. And it’s really it’s really, really cool. I mean, I’ve worked with people that there was one woman that I worked with and we had eight sessions and I would say probably six out of the eight sessions. We were really working on the mindset thing. You know, she had had some a lot of very, very tough things happen in her personal life and had also been working in a pretty toxic situation at work. And she really wanted to get out of it.

Terry McDougall: [00:17:47] But it was hard because there was so much pressure in her job. And when she finally shifted to. You know, believing, okay, maybe this is possible and started taking action. She literally got a job. Well, she had a job interview before our last session, so we only had two more sessions left. And then within like two weeks of that, she had a new job and it was just such a perfect fit for her. And I mean, I will tell you honestly, sometimes I’m even shocked and how quickly it can happen. But I think the most important thing really is believing that it’s possible. And, you know, a lot of times when people have disappointments, they start internalizing it and thinking like, oh, I’m not good enough. And, you know, oh, maybe I’m just not cut out for management or whatever it is. And that’s a lot of times what holds us back. Right. And but it’s like I said earlier, that also is sort of like a coping, self-protective mechanism. But if we can just take some little baby steps, a lot of times, you know. It connects the dots. Not to get woo woo. But, you know, the universe will step in and, you know, like your old friend from college will call you and be like, hey, my company is expanding. We’re hiring. I mean, it’s just crazy. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it happen. It’s and I’m always, like, amazed and grateful that this does happen. You know, we get things in motion and and we get a little help along the way.

Stone Payton: [00:19:34] Well, I bet you do see some patterns evolve with as you continue to work with more and more people. Are there some things that maybe you don’t articulated out loud? But as as you’re beginning to build that relationship, get to know the client, you’re thinking to yourself, Yeah, I’ve seen this before.

Terry McDougall: [00:19:53] Oh, my gosh, yeah. Not only have I seen it, but most of the time I’ve experienced it personally as well. And, you know, I tend to work with these high achieving people. And one of the patterns that I see is that they’re they’re smart and they’re strong and they’re hardworking. And, you know, that’s fantastic. As an individual contributor, you know, they become like a superstar at work and they get promoted and then they move into a leadership position. And a huge pattern that I see is that they have a very, very difficult time delegating. And, you know, a lot of times what they contact me about is that, oh, my gosh, I I’m, you know, dying under the strain of this job. I wanted to be promoted, but I didn’t know that it meant that I was going to have to work 50% more hours. And, you know, I think that a lot of times, particularly high achievers, have a hard time mentally promoting themselves and realizing like, oh, I’m in a leadership position now. And, you know, the people reporting to me, the budget, the systems, all of this is within my control to use the way that I see fit. And, you know, it’s hard for them sometimes to recognize that maybe the people reporting to them aren’t as hardworking or maybe they don’t know as much. And and to learn how to develop their talent and then also delegate train them. They’re, you know, people on your team who are not you are not necessarily going to be as good at what you do right off the bat.

Terry McDougall: [00:21:31] But if you learn to delegate, learn to give effective feedback, you know, I’ve seen this personally that, you know, a lot of times what will happen is the people that report to you actually get better at the things that used to be your job than you ever were. And that’s a fantastic place to be, right? And then you’re like, okay, good. I can fully delegate that. I don’t have to think about it, and I can elevate myself to what my own job is because, you know, if you don’t stop doing your old job, if you try to do your new leadership job and your old job because you’re afraid to let it go, you’re going to be in a very unhappy place. And not only that, the people working for you are going to be unhappy because they’ll feel like, Oh, they don’t trust me, they’re not trying to develop me. And it just it becomes a vicious cycle, you know, because if you believe that you’re the only one that can do something perfectly and then guess what? That that’s going to be part of your job. And then everybody else is going to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs. And so anyway, that was a long way of saying that a lot of high achieving people have a hard time delegating. And that’s that’s something that I teach. It’s it’s not something that is typically taught, but there is a whole process of how you begin to delegate in a way that is not overwhelming for the subordinate, and it’s not anxiety producing for the leader either.

Stone Payton: [00:23:01] So do you find that at least early in the coaching relationship, a lot of these high achievers, they’re trying to move up in the organization. It’s almost like they’re in the gym. Like with this no pain, no gain. Got to just, you know, work harder. I mean, do they have that mentality sometimes coming into the conversation?

Terry McDougall: [00:23:22] You mean just naturally that you know, they’re going to. Yeah, yeah, I, I that’s actually a good analogy because I mean, probably any good personal trainer would, would say that rest and nutrition is just as important as the workout in the gym. And I, I think about energy and energy out and what I see a lot with people that I work with these high achieving types is that, you know, they’re going to meet the goal no matter what. And it doesn’t matter if they have to work 12 hours a day for weeks on end. And then they wonder why they’re feeling they’re getting sick or why they are getting in arguments with their significant other, or they’re feeling exhausted and can’t get out of bed on Monday morning. So it’s very, very important to be aware of what your own needs are. You have to refill your tank. You know, it’s like driving your car and never stopping to get gas or never stopping to get your oil changed or your tires filled. Eventually it’s going to break down, right? You’re going to get to your destination quicker if you maintain your car. Right. And that that is the same with ourselves.

Terry McDougall: [00:24:44] Right. We need to get enough sleep. We need to go out and have some fun. We need to spend time with, you know, with significant others. We need to eat. We need to drink water, not just coffee. 24 seven. You know, and for most people that I work with, too, I mean, they’re not they’re not on an assembly line making widgets. These are people that are doing knowledge work, right? So creativity, innovation, all of these things are important. And, you know, a lot of times you can find a faster, more efficient way to do things. If you’re fresh, you know, you can come up with the great idea while you’re out on a hike on Saturday or, you know, hanging out with your your kids at the soccer game after work or something like that, you know. So I think just really valuing yourself and realizing that you’re more than just like a robot that has to go into work and be seen singing and sitting in the office, just working constantly. You know, you’re human and you’ve got to really appreciate that and value what you can bring to work. Beyond just, you know, your body being there.

Stone Payton: [00:26:08] Yeah. So how does the whole sales and marketing thing work for a practitioner like you? Like, how do you get the new clients?

Terry McDougall: [00:26:19] I have a number of different channels. When I first started my business, my all my new clients came from my own network. I worked for a long time and and I blogged. And then whenever I let people know that I was doing coaching, a lot of people, I mean, even I had a client that that I had worked with at my very first job. I met her when I was 22 years old, and she’s now a university professor and she was running into some stuff political. It’s funny, I haven’t ever worked in academics, but I’ve I’ve learned that it’s very political and academic environment. But she needed some help, just kind of figuring out what was going on there. But a lot of my early clients came from my own personal network. I am affiliated with a number of different businesses that will go into companies and like sell large contracts. And so I’m sort of like a coach in their stable and they’ll match me with people that, you know, a lot of times people like to work with somebody that has a similar background. So I work with a lot of people in financial services because that was my background from an industry standpoint. And then I worked in marketing, so I’ve worked with a lot of people in marketing and advertising. I also get a lot of referrals from former clients and then of course being on podcasts, right, I’m getting out there, people are getting to know me and I do post a lot on on LinkedIn. I’m a member of some networking groups. I’ve gotten a number of clients that way. So it’s when you’re an entrepreneur, it’s all about the hustle.

Stone Payton: [00:28:00] Well, and I think my experience has been one of the best selling tools on the planet is just doing good work.

Terry McDougall: [00:28:09] Yes, absolutely. When people say, hey, you know, I. I couldn’t have done it unless I had worked with Terry. Now I you know, I do not take credit for my client success. It’s 100% their success. But if I can be along on the journey with them to help them maybe see some things that they didn’t see. Unfortunately, I cannot pick people up and carry them to their goal, but I can be their wingman as they go on that journey.

Stone Payton: [00:28:38] So speaking of podcast, you have your own radio show. In fact, I think I might have written where you have two radio shows. Speak to that a little bit. What’s what’s that like? And how do you how do you operate that?

Terry McDougall: [00:28:52] Well, yeah, I have two podcasts and they’re on all of the platforms. The first one is Marketing Mambo, and I started that at the end of 2020 because I’d spent so many years in marketing and I kind of missed talking with the creative, strategic marketing professionals. And I just realized, like, well, I can I can make that happen. You know, I kind of did it because I thought I would enjoy it. But also I do coach a lot of people in marketing. And so I thought if they understood it could hear me and know what I’m about, that some people might say, Hey, you know, Terry might be a good coach for me. So that’s all I call it what we do. We I talk to chats with marketing movers and shakers from around the globe, and it’s on all different topics around marketing. And then not sure why I decided to start this one second, but I have a podcast that I started earlier in the summer called Winning the Game of Work, and it is all about tips around how to be more successful at work, how to win the game of work. I. I recently completed a kind of like a mini series that I partnered with somebody on about how to deal with bullying and the toxic workplace. And I can’t take credit for for getting the guests together. That was my partner, Lisa. Lisa Edmonson. She’s she’s kind of got a mission of eradicating bullying, bullying in the workplace. But she identified a number of fantastic guests, a couple of professors.

Terry McDougall: [00:30:36] One teaches at Harvard Business School, another one teaches at Columbia University. People who are trying to get the laws changed. A lot of people don’t realize that, like the only kind of harassment in the workplace that’s protected by law is sexual harassment. You know that that’s illegal. Just regular harassment in the workplace is not illegal. And there’s a lot of people that are being bullied and abused in the workplace. And there’s nothing illegal about. So we just talked about a lot of that sort of thing and then a lot of tips about how to how to deal with toxic workplaces. Why maybe for more senior leadership, what they can do to recognize bullies and and get rid of it. Because a lot of times, unfortunately, what happens is that the people at the very top of the house think that, oh, this guy’s a guy or gal is a high performer, and the people underneath of them are like, oh my gosh, this person’s nightmare. Because a lot of times bullies and and toxic bosses can really mask what they do from the people above them. So anyway, we we talked all about that, but I actually just posted something earlier this week about that little voice in your head that hold you back. I call it the gremlin, because for so many people, they you know, their self-talk is is very negative and it can be exhausting. And it is a lot of times the thing that holds us back from being happier and more successful at work.

Stone Payton: [00:32:12] All right, let’s leave our listeners with some coordinates that they would like to reach out and have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on your team. Let’s make sure that we can make it easy for them to get their hands on this book and access the the radio shows, whatever you feel like is appropriate. I just want to make sure people can access this information and connect with you. So let’s leave them with some coordinates.

Terry McDougall: [00:32:39] What I would love to. Stone So my book, Winning the Game of Work is available on Amazon. My podcast Winning the game of work is on Apple, Google Play, wherever it’s every place, or you can also go to Game of Work podcast dot com. If you’re into marketing marketing mambo is also on all of the platforms or you can go to marketing mambo dot net. And finally, if you would like to set up a free exploratory call with me either to work with me as an individual or if you would like to talk to me about how to improve team dynamics at work. I also do some workshops. You can go to Terry B MacDougall dot com and set up a free exploratory call on my website.

Stone Payton: [00:33:28] Well, Terry, it has been an absolute delight having you on the show. Thank you for investing the time and the energy. It’s I found it informing, inspiring. And you’re doing really important work. And we sure appreciate you.

Terry McDougall: [00:33:44] Well, Stone, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate the platform.

Stone Payton: [00:33:51] Well, it is my pleasure. All right. Until next time, this is Stone Payton for our guest today, Terry McDougal and everyone here at the Business Radio X family saying we’ll see you in the fast lane.