Author and Storyteller Jennifer Irwin

Intro: [00:00:04] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia, it’s time for high velocity radio

Lee Kantor: [00:00:14] Lee Kantor hear another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a fun one today. On the show we have Jennifer Irwin, author of the new book A Dress The Color of the Moon. Welcome, Jennifer.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:00:27] Hi, thanks for having me.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:29] Well, I’m excited to learn about your book, and I’m also curious about life as an author. So before we get too far into things, tell us a little bit about the book. How did the idea come about for you?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:00:42] It’s a standalone sequel to my debut novel, which won seven awards and has been optioned for a movie. And basically, it’s the story of a woman who is checking into rehab for sex addiction and goes back and forth in time to learn her story and what happened in her life and how she ended up where she is. There’s a cast of characters in rehab, so in a dress color of the Moon, I bring those characters. So she’s just checking out of rehab. She has all of her tools that she learned there. And I bring a few of the characters to Los Angeles, and there’s this sort of trials and tribulations of some of them. Make it some of them not don’t how they put their pieces of their lives back together, rebuilding relationships that have been broken, trust that has been broken. And it’s a very it’s a very interesting insight into how people handle the recovery process and and what it looks like.

Lee Kantor: [00:01:46] Now on this show, we’ve interviewed a lot of authors, most of which have been nonfiction authors. Is there kind of a different kind of methodology when it comes to writing a fiction book? You know, I know in nonfiction they outline they have some points they want to get across, but in fiction there has to be kind of a story arc. There has to be kind of sympathetic characters. There has to be a hero. There has to be some, you know, redemption. Maybe there has to certain kind of elements of story you have to take place that aren’t necessarily true in a nonfiction book.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:02:21] Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of research, and my work falls in the category of biographical fiction. It does read like a biography and feels a lot like a biography when you read it. But I did want to create a realistic therapeutic environment and what the process looks like, so I did have to do a lot of research. But other than that, I do follow the the fiction format with character arcs and heroes. I do. My writing is character driven. And so I really work on character development, even flipping characters, flipping there from being likable to unlikable and vice versa. But I’m what they call a panther, so I write without really having it all plotted out. I just sort of let the story unfold as I do the work.

Lee Kantor: [00:03:21] So you have an idea for how the story begins, and then you just start writing and then let it just kind of evolve as it goes.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:03:28] Yeah, yeah. And the first draft is pretty disastrous, and you just take it from there and keep working on it and working and tweaking it and fine tuning it until it’s it’s ready to go.

Lee Kantor: [00:03:42] So how do you know when you have kind of a characters or a story that’s resonating and clicking?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:03:50] I think it’s just for me, it’s really a gut feeling where I just because I’ve been doing this now for a while, and I and I have a better idea of what works and where I’m at, and it typically takes seven drafts to complete a novel. And I really that’s that’s sort of the rule of thumb, and it actually is pretty true. It just I try to look at everything with a small I take a small section and work on it and then continue just doing that. And there’s just a moment where you, you know, it’s ready to go. And and then what I typically do is I go, I send them out to beta readers. I have some readers that like to take a look at my work and let me know how it’s how it’s resonating with them, and I’ll get some feedback and then send it over to my agent.

Lee Kantor: [00:04:42] Now, how do you kind of prevent the story from spiraling where like, you’re going down this one rabbit hole and then you like, how do you remember? Oh, I got to bring these other characters back in? Or I’ll, you know, it’s been a while since we’ve talked about these guys.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:04:56] Yeah, that’s that’s definitely tough. And I typically write a more difficult. Restructure and address the color of the Moon goes not not only back and forth in time, but it goes from first person to third person. So I when it comes to that, I sometimes I count on my beta readers, but I also have a writing app that I use that helps you focus on where you are and what what’s happening with each character, and you can keep track of it that way. I’m just starting to use this app. It’s it’s pretty complex and it’s been a lot for me to get to figure it out. But once you get into it and figure out how it all works, it’s been. It’s been made. It a lot easier for me, but I guess it’s just for me. I just I’m really close to these characters and it’s kind of hard to just not have them keep coming back. And when you’re writing the story, because I of the way, especially with the dress, the color of the Moon, I have them all gathering at the very end for a funeral of someone from the previous book that committed suicide. So I go into the different things and experiences of each of those people and how their lives intertwine after rehab. I don’t know. I just, I guess somehow I just try to keep it on track and and if I miss something, typically a beta reader will let me know. Believe me, they’re good.

Lee Kantor: [00:06:28] Do you do you kind of track each each character, like with index cards like some writers, you know, kind of follow the path of character by character, maybe a different color card for each character to make sure that they have a true arc and that they are kind of growing. Like, how do you keep track? Is there any tools you use or you mentioned the software? Or is it just your memory that, hey, let me let me just kind of search for that. I haven’t mentioned this name in a while.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:06:59] I use a software,

Lee Kantor: [00:07:01] So software is the tool.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:07:03] Yeah, it’s a writing software that basically keeps track of all that for you, and you can even get deep into the characters, interview your characters, keep track of your characters and it. It’s a it’s a very it’s a it’s an app that a lot of writers use and it’s very it keeps everything really, really organized for you. I’m not the three by five card thing is just a little too archaic for me.

Lee Kantor: [00:07:33] Now let’s talk a little bit about the business of being an author. Was this something that you kind of accidentally fell into, or is this something that you’ve been kind of, you know, aiming your career towards all along?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:07:48] Um, I it’s not it’s definitely not something I accidentally came into, I worked in advertising and I. Was always working on telling a story through ads and through television commercials, and then worked in another industry where I was launching products for corporations like McDonald’s and Burger King, where they bring a lot of people to a conference and have staging and set design and sort of like a Broadway show that happens for the salespeople to launch products. I worked in that industry for a while and I just after I got divorced, I really wanted to get into my life and my childhood and things that happened. And why did I choose this person? And I’ve been teaching Pilates for many years while I was raising my boys and was writing at night and I had written a screenplay in college that got me into this arts program, and I sort of springboard of that screenplay. Along with some of the experiences that I had gone through with my marriage and divorce and and my childhood and kind of created this, the story that has resonated with a lot of people and surprisingly more men than I could ever imagine have posted reviews, which has been kind of a nice surprise, actually.

Lee Kantor: [00:09:15] So now you write the book. This is just on your own. This is like you don’t sell the book. Before you write the book, you write the book and then you use the book as a way to get an agent and then to sell it. Is that how it works?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:09:27] Yeah. So the way that the first book happened was at the time I was querying agents and I ended up selling the film rights to the book or optioning the film rights to the book before I published it. So it can typically take years to get a book published after you sign with an agent. And so the film option put a bit of sense of urgency on me getting the book out to market. And so basically because at the time, I thought this producer was going to be moving really fast and getting this film, getting the film made, which she ended up not doing. But I ended up publishing Indy and jumping into the business of being my own book marketing guru. I guess you might say so.

Lee Kantor: [00:10:26] That’s where all those advertising and marketing years were now paying off, huh?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:10:30] All right. So I basically taught myself how to build a social media platform, how to market on social media, how to run Amazon ads, what the Amazon algorithm is. And I also. Used myself as a writer and as someone that has written about addiction and recovery and divorce and childhood trauma and a lot of experiences, many people either know someone that have gone through or have gone through themselves and use these personal experiences to share about myself, not just as a writer, but as a person, and so created a platform of followers that have has grown exponentially and helped me sell books. Basically, I used I mostly use Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. I’m also on LinkedIn, but I run. I run promotions every quarter for my first book through a variety of different programs, and I discount the Kindle edition for that. And then when I’m not running the 99 cent Kindle edition promotions, I run consistently every week, run 10 to 12 ads on Amazon, and there’s a complex way that you run the ads and get them in the right categories and book titles. Yes, I mean, it’s a hustle. It’s it’s a lot easier if you sign with a big publisher. But even right now, I mean, like you said, you mostly promote nonfiction authors. Those books can get to market a little faster. Memoirs of celebrities obviously do really well, but the days of big publishers spending a lot of money on a on on releasing a book or those are those days are gone. That’s not happening much anymore unless it’s a super big, you know, celebrity or famous person is sending their memoirs to market.

Lee Kantor: [00:12:35] So how did you get in front of the producer to option the film rights? How did that come about?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:12:42] So it was someone that I had sent the manuscript to to get some feedback before I was pitching it to agents and that the reader had. Was so moved by the story that I received a text message, they wanted to purchase the film rights and it’s basically it was. It’s a billionaire who has not been in the film industry, but her daughter graduated from the USC Master’s Film School of Cinematic Arts and was, you know, as involved in the film business. And she was very moved by the story and and said she wanted to make the movie.

Lee Kantor: [00:13:28] So that was just again the hustle and the doing kind of the grind of the work and then opportunity kind of just clicked and it found you and you found it.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:13:39] Yeah. And yeah, that was that was really lucky. And then on top of that. I my book won seven awards, which which also got me, so the different awards programs promote your book for you and get your book out there to to to their their platforms so that that was very, very helpful. I, the book community on social media is very, very powerful. There are some very powerful book bloggers. Many of the bigger ones are on the big. Five publishing companies send books out to them. I can’t really touch those ones. The ones that have massive amounts of followers typically don’t look at India authors. I mean, there is a stigma still for authors that publish small press like mine, which we do not. We can’t really have our books at Barnes and Noble because there isn’t a publisher paying Barnes and Noble to put our books on the shelves. So when we we do a book signing at a Barnes Noble, that’s great. But our books end up in the back in a box. Nobody’s they’re not put on the shelf because Barnes Noble doesn’t have financial motivation to put the book on the shelf.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:14:57] So, I mean, there’s a lot of roadblocks as an indie author, but at the same time, my royalties are mine. I’m not sharing them with anyone, you know, so that that in itself and you end up being able to manage your own career and decide where you want to wear, how you want your career to go as a writer? And the other thing is, it’s a little difficult is like, for example, Reese’s Book Club and Hello Sunshine are snatching up film rights to books left and right. But you will. You just won’t see them reading or promoting an indie published book, ever. So in the game of life, it’s who you know, sometimes as well, you know, so you don’t have the connections. Your book’s not going to get into those big influencers hands unless unless, like, what happened to me, you get it in someone’s hands who happens to be to have deep pockets and be able to make a movie regardless of whether they have any connections in the movie business. So, you know, it does happen. It’s just it’s not that easy.

Lee Kantor: [00:16:03] So it sounds like if you want to pursue being an author as a career or even a hustle side hustle, you’ve got to build a community. You have to kind of use your network and expand your network and hustle and grind, and there’s no shortcuts here. But again, the bottom line good work gets found, right? I mean, yeah. You know, if you’re doing good work, someone’s going to pay attention to it.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:16:29] Yeah, no. And it’s true. And honestly, there there’s a lot of courses on how to do book advertising, how to run ads for your book, and a lot of indie authors are making a really good living on their books. The more books you write, the more followers you have, the more readers you have. And without even wanting to. As a social media person, I’ve I now have businesses reaching out to me for sponsored posts and offering me products, and I’m an ambassador for Rent the runway, so I’m wearing their clothes and and getting perks from them. So there’s just a lot of things that happened because I was hustling on social media that I didn’t expect to have happen. You know, there’s a whole stigma that writers are like introverts and sitting with their head in the sand. But the bottom line is, even if you publish with a big five, they want to know you’re going to do the work and get your book out there and do your own marketing as well. They don’t want someone that isn’t going to be helping get there. Spread the word about their work. And I, you know, I I believe in what I do. I believe in my writing. I believe in my stories, and I just keep hustling and don’t give up. And there’s been a lot of highs and lows, just like there is when you’re launching a product, you’re going to have, you’re going to hit roadblocks, but you just you can’t give up. You just have to keep going, right?

Lee Kantor: [00:18:05] And ultimately, you’re in control. You’re betting on yourself.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:18:08] Right, exactly. You’re betting on yourself. And and also when you publish with the Big Five and you have an agent, a lot of your royalties go to your agent and the rest goes to your publisher. A lot of these. And honestly, when I look at, I take a lot of writing courses where a Big Five published author will talk about their their story and how they got where they are. And while there, while I’m taking the class, I’ll look their book up on Amazon and my book will have far more reviews, a higher rating than their book. And it’s because, number one, my writing’s good. My books are good. Readers speak for me. They rate the book, and I can’t make up my my rating on Amazon that’s done by the readers. And and I have a lot of reviews, and when a reader is compelled to write a review, that’s a really big deal because I mean, I can honestly tell you, I’ve sold a lot more books than there are reviews, obviously. But getting reviews is a big deal because that means someone was so moved. Either they hated your book or they loved your book, but they wanted to write a review, and that’s a really, really big deal to have a solid amount of reviews on Amazon.

Lee Kantor: [00:19:22] Well, Jennifer, congratulations on all the success. If somebody wants to learn more about address the color of the Moon or your other book, or just hang out with you and your community, is there a website?

Jennifer Irwin: [00:19:34] Yeah. Jennifer Irwin, author and all my social media is at. Jen Irwin, Author.

Lee Kantor: [00:19:41] All right, Jennifer, thank you again for sharing your story. You’re doing important work and we appreciate you.

Jennifer Irwin: [00:19:46] Oh, thank you so much, Leigh. I appreciate you having me on your show.

Lee Kantor: [00:19:50] All right, this is Lee Kantor. We will see you next time on high velocity radio.