Decision Vision Episode 124: Should I Get my Old Job Back? – An Interview with Owen Sizemore, Brady Ware & Company

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions. Brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:40] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. If you like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:10] Before we get into this week’s conversation, I want to mention that a colleague of mine, Betty Collins, who is a partner with Brady Ware and host of her own podcast, Inspiring Women, is helping to lead the Eighth Annual Brady Ware Women’s Leadership Conference. Like most things, it’s staying virtual this year. But on July 30th, if you like this podcast and the topics discussed, I suspect you will like their discussion points for that conference. Several speakers including two national voices, and the Governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, are on the agenda. Please check out www.columbuswomensleadership.com. It may seem local to Ohio, but the content is worthwhile nationally.

Mike Blake: [00:01:45] Now, on with this week’s Decision Vision. Today’s topic is, Should I get my old job back? And I’ve been in the public accounting industry for – golly – in some fashion, I’ve been in it for, I guess, something like 10 to 12 years. So, it shows I’m not a very good accountant because I can’t count that high. And one thing I’ve noticed is, there’s a lot of kind of shuffling of talent.

Mike Blake: [00:02:16] And in particular, I’ve noticed there are a lot of folks that work for an accounting firm for some period of time. They leave, going off to find, at least, what they think are greener pastures, and then come back after a period. And I’m sure that happens a lot in other industries as well. Accounting is the one that I happen to see it. And it made me curious about the decision process to leave a job and then come back to it.

Mike Blake: [00:02:43] I’ve never done that. Not because I think it’s good or bad, just simply the circumstances really didn’t dictate it. And as people are re-entering the workforce here, as we record this podcast on July 7, 2021, people may be thinking about getting old jobs back, whether they were furloughed, whether they took a leave of absence, whether they quit altogether because of environmental circumstances dictated by the pandemic. Or maybe they simply left because, again, they saw greener pastures elsewhere.

Mike Blake: [00:03:16] So, you know, I don’t have data to support this, but my instinct tells me this is a decision that, if you’re not facing yourself, you probably know somebody that’s considering the decision. And maybe you can turn them onto this podcast.

Mike Blake: [00:03:30] And joining us today is Owen Sizemore, who is a Certified Valuation Analyst and managing the Valuation Services Group here at Brady Ware. And he’s a boomerang employee. He was with us for a while, left – and we’ll talk about that story – and has come back. And we are delighted to have him back. And I’m equally delighted to have him on the program. Owen Sizemore, welcome to Decision Vision.

Owen Sizemore: [00:03:54] Thanks for having me, Mike.

Mike Blake: [00:03:56] So, let’s start with kind of where you are today. Tell the listeners about your current role at Brady Ware, please.

Owen Sizemore: [00:04:06] Yeah. So, I am a Manager in the Valuation and Litigation Support Practice at Brady Ware, which basically means I take on valuation engagements for a variety of purposes, transactions, tax, litigation support, like I mentioned. And then, I also do some due diligence work as well, merger and acquisition due diligence. That’s a smaller part of my practice, and I anticipate that getting smaller as time goes on. But it’s worth mentioning that I do get into some of that work currently.

Mike Blake: [00:04:40] So, before you came to Brady Ware, what were you doing?

Owen Sizemore: [00:04:45] Is that the first time or the second time?

Mike Blake: [00:04:48] Oh, good question. Let’s go first time.

Owen Sizemore: [00:04:52] So, first time – Mike, you’ve probably heard me say this way too many times, but I always tell people – I’m recovering auditor and CPA. So, before I came to Brady Ware the first time, I was mainly an auditor for another public accounting firm. And that’s where I spent pretty much my whole civilian professional career was as an auditor. I did a little bit of valuation work and due diligence work along the way. I wanted to get into it full time and that’s why I came to Brady Ware.

Mike Blake: [00:05:26] So, I’m curious – I’m going off script a little bit – what was it on audit that you didn’t like or what was it about moving into specialty services like valuation that attracted you?

Owen Sizemore: [00:05:39] Well, as far as what I didn’t like about auditing was that I didn’t like the relationship that it created with your clients. It was difficult to feel like you’re adding value to them because audit is a compliance engagement for – let’s say compliance engagement. And so, I enjoyed the investigative nature of it, but I didn’t like everything around it. I didn’t like that it felt like our clients were put out by us being there. And because they’re put out by us being there, it’s really hard to engage with them on bigger picture stuff.

Owen Sizemore: [00:06:25] And it was also hard to engage with them on bigger picture stuff because you’re just down in the weeds in an audit trying to get the numbers right, that you’re looking at historical information that’s it’s really hard to talk about the future with your client. So, that’s the reason I didn’t like auditing.

Owen Sizemore: [00:06:41] And I like valuation for very similar reasons. You know, it’s forward thinking. You can get into big picture conversations with your client about where they’re going. But I also like the quantitative nature of it as well. And you don’t quite get that in auditing.

Mike Blake: [00:06:59] So, when you first came to Brady Ware, how long were you at the company the first time around?

Owen Sizemore: [00:07:06] I was at Brady Ware for almost a year. Well, I’ll say, a year and a couple months.

Mike Blake: [00:07:13] Okay. And so, what led you to start contemplating a change? What prompted that thought process of your internal conversation?

Owen Sizemore: [00:07:22] There were a handful of things that went into it. I do think it’s important to mention that the job that I left Brady Ware for was actually a job I interviewed for before I came to Brady Ware the first time. And so, ultimately, I decided to come to Brady Ware as opposed to going to Ernst and Young. So, it was always on my mind. And I had never had Big Four experience. I simply didn’t have the grades or the professional wherewithal to value an opportunity at a Big Four accounting firm right out of school like most young graduates do. And so, it was an experience I never got. It was an opportunity I knew was out there because I’d interviewed for it. So, it was kind of in the back of my mind.

Owen Sizemore: [00:08:14] But as far as what happened to Brady Ware specifically, you know, people had a hard time separating me as a CPA from the rest of the traditional CPA group. And so, even though all I did was valuation work or at least that’s all I was supposed to do, when business season rolled around, there was this pressure to behave and follow a similar schedule as the tax not all people were following. Which, as you know, valuation work, it comes and goes. You very well may find yourself extremely busy in the middle of the summer when the tax and audit folks at a CPA firm aren’t doing much.

Owen Sizemore: [00:09:05] And what was kind of the defining moment was, I had a networking event that I set up with a financial planner here in town. And I think it was maybe April 5th, so I went to this networking meeting. And at the time, the valuation group, honestly, was pretty slow. So, I go to this networking event, come back the next day. And one of the partners here asked where I had been and I said, “Well, I had a networking event.” And he said to me, “No more networking events during busy season.”

Owen Sizemore: [00:09:43] And I didn’t respond to that very well, to be honest with you. Because, again, busy season shouldn’t be something that necessarily drives the schedule of valuation people. What drives their schedule is the inflow and outflow of work. And on average, valuation people will bill as much hours or even more than their audit and tax colleagues over the span of a year. It just comes at different times. And so, I was pretty frustrated that there was this expectation to work like I’m a CPA, even though I’m not doing CPA work during that traditional business season time of the year.

Owen Sizemore: [00:10:27] And then, of course, what happened was after regular business season was over, we got very busy on the valuation side. I was working Saturdays and summer, which, again, that in and of itself not a problem. I’m happy to work 60 hours a week, 70 hours a week if I have to. But to be expected to work busy season with everyone else and then deal with the highs and lows of valuation work was not going to work for me.

Owen Sizemore: [00:10:58] And so, I had that Ernst and Young opportunity in the back of my mind and I thought, “Well, if I’m going to be expected to work this hard all the time, and I never got that Big Four experience, I might as well pursue that and see where it goes.” And at least I’ll know either way that it was a good move or a bad move. But at least I’ll put that question to rest in my mind. So, that’s pretty much why I left.

Mike Blake: [00:11:24] Okay. So then, you made the move and you were there at EY for some period of time. What made you realize or made you start to think that maybe that wasn’t the right move to make?

Owen Sizemore: [00:11:36] That’s a good question. There’s a number of things leading up to it. One, culturally, those big organizations are just different. They’re good. They’re not bad. They just are. And the best example of it I can offer is, when I walk down a hallway and I pass a coworker that I might not know at all, I may barely know, or if I do know, I always smile and and greet them and say hi, and going about my business. I certainly don’t try to pull someone into small talk conversation, but I feel like it’s just a nice thing to to acknowledge someone as you pass by them.

Owen Sizemore: [00:12:19] Well, I would do that at EY and you could tell people were – I don’t know want to say it but I’ll put it out – really didn’t know how to respond to it. And, again, I’m just trying to trying to offer a small example of the sort of tense culture in those big places. So, culturally, it wasn’t a great fit.

Owen Sizemore: [00:12:45] But probably the bigger issue for me was that I had some good ideas on how to do business development. And they worked in the middle market. I think they were easily scalable and they involved relationships with big law firms. And coming from the middle market and sort of being out of town – because I had to change locations, change cities to go to EY – I did not have the relationships with the big law firms in town, but I knew that some of the partners that Ernst and Young did.

Owen Sizemore: [00:13:22] And so, I presented this business development idea to them and just said, “Look, I just need an introduction. You can be a part of it. You can or you don’t have to be. It’s up to you. But if you can just give me an introduction, I’ll run with it. And I think it’ll work.” And that business development idea was not warmly received.

Owen Sizemore: [00:13:45] And I come from a place in the middle market when you have a senior accountant, or a senior associate, or a manager, or pretty much any level employee, that is excited and comes up with ideas about business development and networking. My experience had been that partners were they loved it. They wanted to get behind it. They were glad that somebody was thinking about that.

Owen Sizemore: [00:14:07] Whereas, that wasn’t the case at EY. You really got this feeling that they just wanted you to put your head down and do the work. And, you know, “We’ll make you a partner someday if we think you’re worthy of it. And we’re not going to get behind your own initiatives and the efforts you’re trying to take control of with your career and make it happen. We’ll do it for you if we if we want you to have it.” That that’s that’s the takeaway I got from it.

Owen Sizemore: [00:14:33] So, there’s that. Culturally, I just wasn’t a big fit. And then, it was exciting to work on big M&A deals with big companies. But, again, just the sheer size of those organizations in EY, there wasn’t really, I’ll say, a personal connection with your colleagues, really, and your clients. And it just wasn’t a good fit for me all around on those fronts.

Mike Blake: [00:15:03] So, how long did it take for you to come to realize that that wasn’t something you could fix, that you have to probably make another change?

Owen Sizemore: [00:15:15] Probably about five or six months into it.

Mike Blake: [00:15:19] So, pretty quickly.

Owen Sizemore: [00:15:21] Yeah. Pretty quickly. And at the five or six month mark, I knew that it was not going to be a long term thing. And, initially, my plan was, whatever you do, you always have to do it for a year. Or at least that’s what I’ve been told by people, that you should always stick around at whatever job you have for a year. So, that was the plan, once the year passed up, I would start looking to make a move.

Mike Blake: [00:15:48] So, you ultimately came back to Brady Ware, which is awesome. But did you think about moving to another firm first as opposed to coming back to Brady Ware? And if so, what made you choose trying to come back as opposed to moving on to another firm?

Owen Sizemore: [00:16:08] So, I knew that the first place I was going to look was Brady Ware, but I wasn’t sure if an opportunity would be there. So, I had some other firms in mind. But Brady Ware was going to be my first choice for a lot of reasons. But namely because even though we had to do some work on figuring out my schedule and my schedule expectations, at least in this area of the country, it’s difficult to find a firm the size of Brady Ware with a dedicated valuation partner. And even a dedicated valuation team. They’re just few and far between. So, I knew Brady Ware was going to be my first choice. And if that didn’t work, I was kind of throwing throwing rocks out there just to see what would happen.

Mike Blake: [00:17:02] Okay. Now, I mean, you had some very specific reasons for why you left Brady Ware in the first place. Did you have concerns about those things, basically, starting up again? And if so, how did you convince yourself that either of those concerns would go away or the second time around you’d be able to work through them?

Owen Sizemore: [00:17:23] Well, I knew that in order for me to come back, it was going to be a conversation that I had to address, first and foremost, with the managing partner of the firm. So, that was it. I knew that the people in charge of my schedule are the people in charge, period. And I had to get their buy in and it had to be very clear on what the expectations for my schedule would be before I would come back.

Mike Blake: [00:17:53] You know, did you have a sense before you even started the conversation that Brady Ware will be receptive to your return?

Owen Sizemore: [00:18:06] Well, I felt like I hadn’t burned any bridges that I was aware of. And I won’t say I didn’t know how the conversation was going to go for sure. But I recognized and I didn’t think that I burned bridges, recognizing that Brady Ware does have a valuation team, and at least they talked about taking valuation practice seriously prior to me leaving. It seemed like something that we could come to an agreement on. I’ll say, I was fairly hopeful that we could work it out.

Mike Blake: [00:18:52] Okay. And how did you initiate the conversation? Did you contact the managing partner directly? Did you go through a go between? How did you do that?

Owen Sizemore: [00:19:02] No. I contacted the managing partner directly. If I remember correctly, I think I texted him and said, “Hey, it’s Owen. Would you entertain a conversation about me coming back to Brady Ware?” And he said absolutely. And so, we set a date and time to meet for some drinks and we just sort of sat down and hashed it all out.

Mike Blake: [00:19:33] So, it sounds like it was a fairly quick. I think there’s a great object lesson there. It’s so important when you leave a place to leave it well and not burn any bridges, whether it’s leaving the door open to coming back. In my scenario, a place I worked for a number of years, they still refer me work because I didn’t burn bridges. And, you know, even if you’re leaving in a scenario where you’re kind of irritated, there’s no substitute for leaving classy. There’s no reason to just close doors prematurely.

Owen Sizemore: [00:20:10] Yeah. I totally agree with you. Even if you leave just flat out angry, you got to remember that you might be mad at the decision makers who were in charge at the time you left, but you may have had great relationships with the next generation. And whether you meet or not, you may burn bridges with the next generation that you had previously had good relationships with if you leave in so bad of a way. So, it’s best to just put angry aside and do your best to be polite, be helpful, transition your projects in the most efficient and complete way possible, and put it behind you in a way that you’ll feel good about.

Mike Blake: [00:20:58] So, I’m curious, you’re at E&Y for about five months before you realized it wasn’t the fit you thought it was going to be. So, I don’t remember the actual timeline, but it was probably less than a year that actually you’re there. Was it hard to tell them that you were going back?

Owen Sizemore: [00:21:18] Yeah. It was. Because – I think his title was managing director – it was the same guy that I had that, really, I interviewed with him the first time. And then, when I had respectfully just turned it down, I didn’t get off of the job. But my communications with him in the first time I interviewed was I felt like things went good, just sit tight. And then, of course, the initial opportunity at Brady Ware came out sight. I had to respectfully remove myself from being considered.

Owen Sizemore: [00:21:55] And then, the second time around, it was with that same individual. But the second time was a little bit different because there wasn’t an actual job posting. I just reached out to him and I invited him to breakfast. And told him that if there was a need that I’d love to explore that opportunity that I passed up on. So, it was a pretty informal process actually making the change from Brady Ware to E&Y. And his individual, I think, kind of opened some doors that weren’t formally open for me to come.

Owen Sizemore: [00:22:34] So, it was tough. It was tough to tell them that I was leaving because I felt like I certainly wouldn’t have been there if it wasn’t for him. And I think he kind of went out of his way to give me the opportunity. And I hated to let him down. And he was supportive about it. It wasn’t mean or disrespectful or anything, but I acknowledged that I got that job because of him. He worked that he worked on getting it for me and then I had turned and leave relatively quickly. So, that was tough.

Mike Blake: [00:23:11] I wonder if he sensed at all that it wasn’t a good fit and that maybe he wasn’t totally surprised. Or do you just not have enough contact with your pulse in this situation to really know that?

Owen Sizemore: [00:23:24] Mike, I honestly don’t know. I don’t know. But I wrote a hand thank you. I handwrote an apology letter/thank you later for giving me an opportunity, and apologized it didn’t work out. I never really heard from him after that. But it’s accounting, it’s Big Four. You see these people come and go all the time. So, there was probably really no skin off his back, I’m sure. But, yeah, it was tough to acknowledge to myself that I got someone to help me do something and turn around and left pretty quickly.

Mike Blake: [00:24:04] So, looking back on it now, you’ve been back at Brady Ware for some time – I think a-year-and-a-half or close to it, was it the right decision to come back?

Owen Sizemore: [00:24:13] It absolutely was. Obviously, if you’re not a fit for a place culturally, you shouldn’t be there regardless of where you end up going. But it was tough leaving Brady Ware the first time around. And I will say, you know, the process of coming back was pretty painless. I told the managing partner about the issues I was having and why I left, and he was very supportive that we’d be able to figure these things out. And no regrets. It’s been great ever since. It’s where I belong. And unless something crazy happens, it’s where I’m going to stay.

Mike Blake: [00:25:01] So, those issues that you have the first time around, it sounds like they’ve been effectively cleared up and taken off your guns.

Owen Sizemore: [00:25:12] Absolutely. Yeah. No. There’s never been any inkling that those issues are still out there. And I will say – and this is a me thing – knowing that my colleagues are here on Saturdays, sometimes I come in on Saturdays just as a show of solidarity, but that’s a choice on my part and I’m happy to do it. I don’t know, if you see people working hard, you certainly don’t want to ignore the fact that your colleagues are having a tough time, even though you’re not going to ask them to work Saturdays for you in the summer on your valuation work. But at the same time, I think they appreciate that I show up.

Owen Sizemore: [00:25:53] And I think one Saturday this busy season, I brought breakfast for everyone. So, it’s important for people to know that you support them, even though you might not be right there in the fray with them.

Mike Blake: [00:26:10] You know, I think I that’s astute. I don’t come in on Saturdays. I mean, I hardly come in the office of all. But one thing I’ve always tried to do whenever I’ve worked with a CPA firm is, at least on a big tax deadline day, like April 15th, I’ll make sure that I’m in the office and I typically extend my schedule. So that if somebody – I’m not touching a tax return – need help by stuffing envelopes and stuff, or just taking stuff down to the post office, or an extra pair of hands to make myself available.

Mike Blake: [00:26:41] Now, frankly, people are smart enough to just not engage me. And I think part of that is because I don’t know the processes. So, it takes more time to teach me than it would for me to actually be a participant. But I do think there’s an appreciation if you’re not [inaudible] but that you’re you’re at least making some effort to be there in the trenches during crunch time. I think there is something to that.

Owen Sizemore: [00:27:07] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:27:10] So, looking back on it, what lessons do you think you learned from the whole experience? What are some things that you think are key takeaways that if somebody were coming to you and say, “Look, I’m thinking of getting my old job back at some place.” What might you tell them?

Owen Sizemore: [00:27:26] Well, I’d say, one, you’ve got to be direct on addressing the issues that you had and the things that drove you to leave the first time. That’s one, because don’t go into it blind, don’t go into it assuming that everything’s going to be okay. Find who’s in charge, whoever has the ability to address those issues on your behalf, and make sure they’re addressed. Because if my experience the second time around was the same as it was the first time, this wouldn’t be working. So, that’s important.

Owen Sizemore: [00:28:05] And then, two, don’t be afraid to communicate, even if that means going over somebody’s head. When the managing partner and I had a conversation about me coming back and I told him what was going on, one of the first things he said was, “Why didn’t you tell tell me this the first time? Why didn’t you let me know this was happening?” And I said, “Well, I kind of felt like I was going over someone’s head. And I’ve always been telling you just don’t do that.” And while that is a carryover from a military career, but I had this idea that you just don’t go over people’s head. And if I had let go, let go of that and just tried to address it with somebody that could do something about it, probably I may have never left.

Mike Blake: [00:28:56] That’s a really tough spot to be in. I can empathize that you want to respect the chain of command. It’s a big move politically to go over somebody’s head, because once you do that, you better kind of get what you want or it’s going to come back on know you that way. So, I can see how that part of the decision process would be hard. I think for anybody that would be hard.

Owen Sizemore: [00:29:29] Yeah. If you’re going to go over someone’s head, it better be over something that if it does get fixed, you’re leaving, because you may need to for that anyways.

Mike Blake: [00:29:40] That’s a good point.

Owen Sizemore: [00:29:40] And it’s definitely a last resort move. But I wish I wish I had done it because it might have changed things. Another thing I’ve learned is, again, the importance of not burning bridges. Because up until the time I left Brady Ware, Brady Ware was my fourth accounting firm. I kind of worked at places one to two years, three in one case, and then would change firms just to try a new out and see if there’s new clients, new opportunities. And so Brady Ware was the fourth firm I had worked at.

Owen Sizemore: [00:30:23] And aside from this whole scheduling thing, it was my favorite one. I love the fact that they empowered me do valuation work. I love that they were serious about the valuation practice. And so, it was a good thing that I didn’t burn that bridge because, I didn’t realize it at the time, but if I had burned it, I wouldn’t be able to come back and I would have regretted that.

Mike Blake: [00:30:53] So, this is, I think, a very useful conversation. Some of our listeners may have questions that I would have asked or may want to go deeper on something, if somebody wants advice on whether or not they should get their old job back, can people contact you for advice? And if so, what’s the best way to do that?

Owen Sizemore: [00:31:11] Absolutely. My email is great or, honestly, they can call my office phone. But I’d say my email is probably a better bet, and that is osizemore, so O-S-I-Z-E-M-O-R-E, @bradyware.com.

Mike Blake: [00:31:35] Very good. That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Owen Sizemore so much for sharing his expertise with us.

Mike Blake: [00:31:42] We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune it so that when you’re faced with your next business decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy this podcast, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. If you’d like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.