Decision Vision Episode 153: Should I Provide My Services Pro Bono? – An Interview with Roy Hadley, Adams and Reese LLP

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions. Brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service, accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision-making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:43] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. My practice specializes in providing fact-based strategic and risk management advice to clients that are buying, selling, or growing the value of companies and their intellectual property. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta for social distancing protocols.

Mike Blake: [00:01:14] If you would like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. I also recently launched a new LinkedIn group called Unblakeable’s Group That Doesn’t Suck. We just topped 100 members, by the way, so people are getting into this thing. So, please join in with that as well if you would like to engage. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:45] So, today’s topic is Should I Provide My Services Pro Bono? And, according to Esquire Deposition Solutions, and I don’t think it has anything to do with the magazine, nine out of 10 lawyers provide some sort of pro bono service every year. And, according to data on Statista, many firms’ attorneys average over 100 hours per year, which when you consider that the hourly billing rates might be easily $500 at the partner level and for the bulge bracket firms can be over a thousand, that’s a significant investment that firms are making in pro bono work.

Mike Blake: [00:02:26] And I want to talk about this topic because, you know, as we move through this, again I keep calling it the trans-pandemic period, I don’t know when we’re going to get to the post-pandemic period, but we’re certainly trans, and we have this great realignment and great resignation, great this and great that. You know, one of the things that we’re seeing in our society, of course, is the fact that people’s priorities are simply changing. And I’ll share with you sort of a little anecdote from this morning.

Mike Blake: [00:02:57] A guy that I used to work for many years ago texted me because he saw on my Facebook page that I posted something about the Celtics taking the Sacramento Kings behind the woodshed and beating him by 56 yesterday. And if you don’t follow basketball, that’s a big number. And, I posted something on the website and said – and it actually turned out they won by 52, and my friend was giving me the business said, “Hey, you’re a valuation guy. You’re not allowed to get math wrong.” I said, “Dude, if I’m off duty, I’m not responsible for your math, my math, or anybody else’s.” So, you know, I just can’t be on all the time. You know, I just can’t do that. So, he kindly corrected me and gave me the business by text today.

Mike Blake: [00:03:43] But it’s sort of emblematic of the fact that everybody, I think, is searching for something different in what they’re doing. And, one of the things they search for is, we all search for, I think, or most of us search for, is some kind of meaning in what we do. And, the thing that’s fascinating and why I have this particular guest and one of the reasons I have this particular guest on, is, first of all, he’s great. We could talk about anything for an hour and you would enjoy it. But this is a business podcast, so we’ll try to stick to business as much as we can.

Mike Blake: [00:04:15] But what makes this interesting is that the legal profession, despite having, you know, sort of the meme style reputation of being greedy and self-serving and running the meter on the billable hour, when you really sort of take a step back and take a deep breath and look at it in the cold, hard light of day, I don’t know that there’s another profession out there that institutionalizes volunteer work and giving away their expertise and services like the legal profession does. I know the accounting profession doesn’t do that. The business appraisal profession, sure as hell, doesn’t do that. You know, we have to sort of make that up on our own.

Mike Blake: [00:04:55] So, you know, I think it’s important to recognize the contribution of the legal profession makes to this, and I think provides an example for, you know, I think what many other companies and industries can and should consider following, again, as we as re-evaluate the intersection of commerce and society.

Mike Blake: [00:05:21] And, joining us today is a long-time friend of mine, Roy Hadley. We’re just talking before the program – oops. Sorry, my watch wasn’t turned off. I thought I had the device turned on.

Roy Hadley: [00:05:35] Technology, technology.

Mike Blake: [00:05:35] Yeah. Exactly. I’m sure Apple is not listening. So, anyway, joining us today is not Siri, but indeed it’s Roy Hadley, who is a business lawyer and technology cybersecurity and privacy evangelist with Adams and Reese, which is headquartered in New Orleans but has a fairly substantial office here in Atlanta.

Mike Blake: [00:05:58] Roy is a lawyer and trusted adviser to businesses, governments, and families worldwide. He’s an attorney out of the Atlanta office and is a member of the corporate and security team with a nod to the interconnected world where he consults clients globally on complex business issues, particularly those involving technology, communications, cybersecurity, life sciences, economic development, and trade, and he regularly assists with matters involving data security and risk mitigation. He was named a cybersecurity visionary by USBE Magazine, was named one of Georgia’s most powerful and influential lawyers, and recognized by The Legal 500 for his work in middle markets M&A. He represented the City of Atlanta as it confronted a massive ransomware attack in 2018. I couldn’t believe it’s only been four years ago since that happened. It seems like it was 10 years ago, but, boy, time flies.

Mike Blake: [00:06:54] Roy was named a Georgia trailblazer by the Daily Report and a game-changer by Information Security by Hub Magazine. He recently received Adams and Reese’s Pro Bono Lawyer of the Year Award for 2021, which is what prompted my inviting Roy to this conversation. But I think, perhaps most importantly, as we record this podcast here on January 26, 2022, Roy holds both his bachelor’s degrees and law degree from the National College Football Champion, University of Georgia. Boy, you guys [inaudible]

Roy Hadley: [00:07:29] Bulldogs. Bulldogs.

Mike Blake: [00:07:31] I’m just going to let you have – I’m going let you have it. If you want to start –

Roy Hadley: [00:07:35] Let me have that moment. Yeah. You do have to let me have that moment. You know, it’s been, what, 41 years coming? I deserve that moment.

Mike Blake: [00:07:43] You know, 41 years and I’m not – look, I’m not a college football fan. I’ve said, look, we already have pro football up in the North. We just paid our players over the table. That’s [inaudible]. But, you know, having moved down here almost 20 years ago, about 19 years ago, you know, I don’t have, no pun intended, I have a dog in the fight. But it was remarkable just how many years Georgia would come within a game of winning that national championship and just something – it would, you know, in the 20 – in the early 2000s, it would be a bonehead loss to a bad team six games in, right, that would derail their season. Right?

Roy Hadley: [00:08:25] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:08:26] And then, they keep running into the buzz saw known as Nick Saban, obviously, and the University of Alabama Juggernaut.

Roy Hadley: [00:08:33] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:08:34] And, I didn’t think there was a chance in hell Georgia was going to win that game after the way they lost to Alabama. So, don’t take my betting advice, but –

Roy Hadley: [00:08:42] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:08:42] But I’m just so happy for University of Georgia fans who have just been suffering and have just been tortured for so long –

Roy Hadley: [00:08:53] It’s our moment. Right?

Mike Blake: [00:08:53] And they haven’t come up on top. It’s just brought this really nice vibe, really, to the entire state. Even Georgia Tech fans, I think, are giving you the nod, which is a real sign of social unity, I think.

Roy Hadley: [00:09:05] It’s out of 41 years in the making.

Mike Blake: [00:09:10] Yes. So, Roy, thanks for coming onto the program. It’s awesome to see you again, and congratulations on your Pro Bono Lawyer of the Year Award, among the other things. And, you know, by the way, in full disclosure, I could have read off all of Roy’s accomplishments and achievements and expertise, but we’d use the entire hour doing that. So, I would just invite you to look at his LinkedIn page and look at the other credentials.

Mike Blake: [00:09:36] But let’s dig in, let’s dig in here. As I said in the introduction, the legal my impression is, and correct me if I’m wrong, please. But my impression is the legal profession, interestingly, has a special relationship with pro bono work, right? And so, I want to talk about that in a minute. But before we do that, since pro bono is a Latin term and not all of us have watched The Exorcist. What does pro bono work mean? And is there a distinction between that and a more genericized term of, say, volunteering?

Roy Hadley: [00:10:13] Right. So, you know, great questions, and I’ll start it off by saying, you know, pro bono has been kind of, you know, whether you call it pro bono or you call it something else, it has always been kind of ingrained in the legal profession. You know, the lawyers have always said it is a profession despite what a lot of people think. Lawyers think of the legal profession as a profession. And, as such, you know, part of that profession is giving back to society. And, for us, what that means a lot of times is doing what we call pro bono work, and that work is really doing it for free, pro bono. And, that’s really what, you know, kind of underpins it.

Roy Hadley: [00:11:02] You know, you see it all the time. Firms have pro bono requirements. We’ll get into that a little bit later. But, also, you know, courts. A lot of times when defendants don’t have, you know, money to pay for their defense, courts will appoint lawyers, and sometimes they’re paid, sometimes they’re not. A lot of times you will see lawyers that will take up the case of indigent defendants, lawyers that will take up death penalty cases.

Roy Hadley: [00:11:30] You see the Innocence Projects that go on throughout the country. A lot of times those lawyers aren’t paid, you know, and that even goes back to when kids are in law school, because a lot of the projects they are doing pro bono, they’re doing it for free, with the thought that that same mentality kind of permeates throughout their careers.

Roy Hadley: [00:11:54] And so, it’s almost ingrained in us that part of the profession is giving back. And in some bar, state bar associations, actually require pro bono work. So, you know, it’s just one of those things that I hold near and dear to my heart because, at the end of the day, people always ask me, “Well, what do you do?” You know, you read my resume and I do a lot of technology-focused stuff. But what I tell people at my core is I help people solve problems. And, you know, you can help clients solve problems and you get paid for it and you’re happy. They’re happy. Good stuff comes out of that. But a lot of times when you do pro bono work, you’re helping people that can’t afford your services.

Roy Hadley: [00:12:40] And so, you know, it’s things that are near and dear to them that really make a difference at the end of the day. Things like keeping them from getting evicted. Things like helping them pay hospital bills. Things like, you know, custody matters. Things like – you know, in my case, what I did a lot this year was helping with COVID relief and things like that. And so, things that really impact the daily lives of people is really what a lot of the pro bono work that lawyers do accomplishes. And so, it really does make a difference, and you can see that difference at the end of the day and impacting people’s lives directly.

Mike Blake: [00:13:25] And, you know, it’s so important because at least, you know, I think so. I’m not a lawyer but I’m a citizen, and I take, I think, my civic duty, you know, very seriously. And as a citizen, you know, we’re very proud of a system that is designed to be transparent and it’s designed to give you some kind of equal representation in front of the law, right? And, look, the law is complex and it’s not – although you’re allowed to represent yourself, it’s certainly not designed to encourage that, right?

Mike Blake: [00:14:01] But, you know, the legal system is not perfect and you’re talking about whether the legal system is just or not as a separate podcast altogether and really something philosophers really need to tackle and other jurists that I’m just not qualified to. But I can say this, without the opportunity for representation, the legal system simply has no chance of being successful.

Roy Hadley: [00:14:32] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:14:33] And, you know, the people that often need representation most are the ones that can least afford to pay for it.

Roy Hadley: [00:14:41] Right. And, not getting – and that’s a great point, but not getting too philosophical here because you say it will leave some of these questions for the philosophers. But our whole system, the American system, you know the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and all of that we all hold dearly whether you’re a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, it really doesn’t matter. These ideals that we have, you said, hold dearly, and those ideals are predicated really on the Rule of Law.

Roy Hadley: [00:15:11] And so, it’s that Rule of Law that underpins really everything that we do in this country. You know, it’s one of those foundational elements that we have to really nurture and protect. And as lawyers, we feel a special sense of duty and a special sense of obligation because we are lawyers to help nurture and protect and uphold that Rule of Law. But, kind of inherent in all of that is, like you said, making sure that it is just that it is fair that everyone has access to proper representation whether they can afford, you know, a lawyer, you know charges, I don’t – but, you know, charges a thousand dollars an hour, or they can only afford one that costs $10 an hour, or in some cases, afford one that costs zero dollars an hour.

Roy Hadley: [00:16:08] And so, I think that’s why you see lawyers really, you know, kind of embrace this whole thing about service and pro bono and giving back legal services to the community and those most in need of them for free because it is a foundational element of our whole system, of our republic, of our, you know, democratic ideals, that Rule of Law. And so, you know, I hold it dear and we all hold it dear. And, I think it’s it’s one of those things that, regardless of profession, we all love to hold dear.

Mike Blake: [00:16:46] Yeah. And I think, you know, the best example of that was, you know, very early on in our history, John Adams was famous for representing the soldiers in the Boston Massacre, right? Not necessarily because he believed in their case, but because he believed that everybody, even if you think they’re dead, guilty bad guys, the legal system to have credibility. Everybody is entitled to representation and they’re entitled to, as I think as you guys like to say, vigorous advocacy in front of the court, right?

Mike Blake: [00:17:15] So. I’m curious about something in the mechanics. You know, you mentioned about a court appointing a lawyer. And I have this in my head and this may be totally wrong. Does the court have the power to, in effect, draft an attorney to work on a case?

Roy Hadley: [00:17:35] Yeah. In some cases, in some matters, I would say yes, they do. And so, you know, a court can appoint an attorney, whether that attorney wants to or not, in some matters, to actually represent somebody in that case. And you’ll see it a lot of times, especially in smaller communities where, you know, as part of being a member of the bar, you have to sign up and register, and the court will rotate it and appoint different members of the bar to represent certain, you know, clients, whether they’re indigent or just need special assistance.

Roy Hadley: [00:18:13] Now the thing I’ll tell you, though, is that, you know, we have 50 states and each state has its own rules regarding lawyers. Each state has its own rules regarding pro bono, regarding the ability to assign cases. And within those states, you have different bar, circuit and bars and jurisdictions, and so each one will have something totally kind of different. That said, though, again, kind of going back to one of those foundational elements of the bar being that you will give back.

Roy Hadley: [00:18:46] And so, you know, you see firms. I mean, my firm, Adams and Reese, we have a pro bono requirement for lawyers. You know, you have to work a certain number of hours a year. I think it’s 50 per lawyer that you have to work in pro bono service. And there are lots of different ways you can do it, you know. And when you look at it a lot of times early in my career, I know I did some work where people were having trouble getting their wages paid or, you know, improper withholdings from employers, and, you know, a lot of times we’ll sit back in what I call our ivory towers, our gilded towers, and say it really doesn’t make a big difference.

Roy Hadley: [00:19:30] But, you know, if you’re making the minimum wage or you’re making $8 an hour and somebody is erroneously withholding a dollar from you, or if somebody is not paying you for your 40 hours for you, they’re not paying you overtime, that has a tremendous impact on your daily life. It may be the difference, and I’m not overstating this. It may be the difference between you being evicted because you couldn’t pay your rent. It may be the difference between you not having transportation because you couldn’t pay your insurance. Or, it may be the difference between you not being able to eat or feed your child that day.

Roy Hadley: [00:20:12] You know, these sorts of things that we sometimes take can literally be that impactful in people’s lives, and I think that’s really what drives at home for me the importance of it, because when you see somebody that you have helped in a very, you know, impactful way, then, and that person is genuinely appreciative, that gets to you. You know, if you don’t feel some sense of humbleness around the ability to help and the opportunity to help, then you know, I’m not quite sure about you, because it is impactful in ways that, you know, you just don’t see every day in what we do working with clients.

Mike Blake: [00:21:00] Yeah. And, you know, in a lot of cases, you are somebody in your stead is what’s standing in the way of an injustice, right? It’s one thing. You know, if you’re going to be evicted because you’re unable to pay your rent, that’s one scenario, again, I don’t want to go deep into that, that’s philosophical, right? But it’s another if a landlord just decides to kick you out because they got an offer to buy the building, for example. They’re going to make some good money on that sale and they’re banking on the fact that you cannot defend yourself legally, right?

Mike Blake: [00:21:38] To me, that’s the thing that’s got to be that must be impeded, that, you know, I don’t think any of us want to live in a society or very few of us want to live in a society where that is simply allowed, right. And it’s people doing that pro bono work that makes sure that at least if something bad is going to befall somebody, it’s going to befall somebody within the concept of what we, as a society, have decided as a just outcome as opposed to simple, frankly, just outright bullying. I don’t like bullies.

Roy Hadley: [00:22:18] You’re right. I don’t think any of us do, you know. And, it’s interesting because a lot of times, you know, most times people aren’t asking for anything special. You know, they’re just asking to be treated within the rules that are there, the laws that are there.

Mike Blake: [00:22:36] Right.

Roy Hadley: [00:22:36] And so, a lot of times, what you’ll find is people either don’t know how to navigate the system, don’t know what the rules are, don’t know what the opportunities are. And so, a lot of times it’s not that, like you said, somebody can’t pay their rent or doesn’t want to pay their rent, it’s that the landlord is doing something. Or, it said, you know, somebody is trying to get Social Security benefits for a kid because the mother or the father passed but the parents weren’t married, and they don’t know how to navigate that Social Security System to help get those benefits for the child. And, it’s not that the child is trying to get something they’re not entitled to. It said they just don’t know how to navigate the system to get something that they are entitled to.

Roy Hadley: [00:23:24] And so, that’s where, you know, we help. That’s where lawyers can help. And quite honestly, you know, that’s where a lot of other professions can help, you know. Because you start talking. I’m going to pick on you, you and your accounting friends there might – you know, accountants aren’t dumb. And so, accountants can navigate.

Mike Blake: [00:23:48] We like to think so. But, yeah.

Roy Hadley: [00:23:50] Right. You know.

Mike Blake: [00:23:52] That’s what the website says.

Roy Hadley: [00:23:54] Right. And so, you know, there are a lot of things that accountants could do to help this, you know, help people on a pro bono basis. And, you know, I think it’s just not institutionalized again in the way that historically it has been for lawyers. And, in some ways, us lawyers think that we are the guardians of the republic, the guardians of democracy, the guardians of the Rule of Law. You know, we like to think that and in a lot of ways we are because, again, kind of going back to what we first said, our country is built upon the Rule of Law. And so, we have to respect that, nurture it, protect it, and make sure that it’s fairly applied to everybody.

Mike Blake: [00:24:41] So, you bring up a great point. And I’ll say the following, it’s going to sound defensive, but it’s really not intended to be and I’ll prove with what I’ll say next.

Roy Hadley: [00:24:52] There you go.

Mike Blake: [00:24:52] I’ve offered a number of times to attorneys that, look, if you need somebody to ride shotgun with you on a pro bono matter, there’s a valuation issue, or it could be eminent domain. But, you know, it’s a tiny business. It could be a convenience store. It could be a pop-up store, whatever. They’re not going to pay somebody like me 10 or 12 grand to appraise the business. Right? But there are damages involved, right? I’ll be happy to ride shotgun with you, or I’ll have somebody on my staff ride shotgun and help you work through the numbers that matter. And in 18 years of doing this, I’ve never been taken up on it.

Roy Hadley: [00:25:26] Really?

Mike Blake: [00:25:27] Yeah. So, as I say this, and I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit, but I think you’re going to appreciate it. Let’s you and I have an offline conversation, figure out how we can partner our two firms to help you, if there are financial issues that are involved in any of the matters that you guys are working on, if you need a partner to ride shotgun, let’s do that.

Roy Hadley: [00:25:51] Okay. Absolutely. Take done. Done. We will absolutely have that.

Mike Blake: [00:25:55] We would like to do that because you did mention it. You know, you guys have the institutionalized knowledge, right? And the reality is that these matters come to lawyers first. It’s why guys like me suck up to guys like you because guys like you have the – really are the gateway to the engagements because lawyers are the planners and accountants are the historians, which means we can base it, “Oh, man. Well, you should have done this.”

Roy Hadley: [00:26:27] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:26:27] You know, that doesn’t – great. Right? So. you know, nobody comes to us sort of initially with the legal matter, but many of these legal – you know, many of these legal matters involve, you know, finances and that’s something that we can do. And there are opportunities for partnerships where we can kind of piggyback on what you guys are seeing. And I think other firms and other practitioners would love to lend a helping hand. We really would.

Roy Hadley: [00:26:56] Absolutely. And, a lot of times they’re not complex issues. You know, they’re not complex valuation issues. They may be calculating wage an hour, you know, issues. There may be calculating rent and back rent, you know penalties, or with back taxes, trying to help calculate and negotiate with the IRS, you know. There are lots of things. And so, people always say, “Oh, I don’t have time,” because people envision this really complex thing. And sometimes they are complex. But most times they go to the other end of the spectrum and are simple matters, especially simple to somebody who does numbers, you know works with numbers all day long. So, I will absolutely take you up on it.

Roy Hadley: [00:27:44] And, it kind of pivots me to one of the things that, you know, when we talk about pro bono with lawyers is people also tend to think if you’re a lawyer, you can do anything regarding the law. And, you know, kind of like in our normal practice, you kind of stay in your lane and you have to stay in your lane. And so, even with pro bono, we kind of stay in our lane, and part of staying in our lane means that a lot of times we’ll need help from somebody like you on those little things, those number-crunching things that are outside of our lane. And so, it’s – you know, I take that offer very seriously and I will absolutely take it up, take you up on it.

Mike Blake: [00:28:26] At a minimum, take it up with me. Like I said, 18 years, nobody’s ever pulled the trigger.

Roy Hadley: [00:28:30] All right.

Mike Blake: [00:28:31] I can’t commit my entire firm, but I can commit my practice for sure, and I think I can convince my firm to do something with it. So –

Roy Hadley: [00:28:39] Wait. I heard you earlier say the firm, you know, as lawyers hear these things.

Mike Blake: [00:28:45] Well, yeah. Well, that’s why I need to walk that back. So, I don’t have the authority. As far as to go, they’re not the managing partner of the firm.

Roy Hadley: [00:28:54] Right, right, right.

Roy Hadley: [00:28:55] [Inaudible] within my group that we can do it. And I think that I can get people in my firm to do it, whether formally or informally, but –

Roy Hadley: [00:29:01] I’m messing with you.

Mike Blake: [00:29:03] But I do want to have that conversation sort of institution to institution.

Roy Hadley: [00:29:08] Absolutely.

Roy Hadley: [00:29:09] And I think we’ll be receptive to it, just knowing the people involved. So –

Roy Hadley: [00:29:12] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:16] Now, you have a 50-hour minimum. I don’t think they gave you the award for doing 50 hours.

Roy Hadley: [00:29:22] [Inaudible] No.

Mike Blake: [00:29:24] That would be, that would be awkward.

Roy Hadley: [00:29:26] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:26] So, obviously, this is something you’re doing more and more of because you truly believe in it.

Roy Hadley: [00:29:32] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:32] Why? What is it that drives you maybe, you know, more on sort of the edge of the bell curve to do a lot of this?

Roy Hadley: [00:29:39] Right. So, this year, you know, I was well over 200 hours in terms of pro bono work. And a lot and what – and I’ll describe a little bit of what I did. You know, we had a client that was giving out pandemic relief funds, loans, grants [inaudible]. And so, part of that was it took legal work to effectuate the loans and things like that. And so, let’s just say, for example, it’s a $10,000 loan, takes two or three hours of legal work to do. Then, you know, at my standard rate of $50 an hour, just kidding, but at most, you know, it could be a thousand to $1500 in legal fees. So, all of a sudden that $10,000 loan is 8000 or 8500, you know. But if you could get that whole 10,000 to them, then now that business can pay rent, now that business can pay employees, now that business can buy PPE, supplies, and things like that. Now, they can pay the light bill. Now, they can stay open and keep functioning, which is the whole purpose.

Roy Hadley: [00:30:52] And so, you know, I’m a business lawyer. I’m a corporate lawyer, you know, close loans, do deals all day, every day. And so, the ability to do that for these companies, and, again, these are small companies. These are a lot of times sole proprietorships. These are companies that maybe have two or three or four employees that really aren’t the big companies that have the ability to kind of withstand business dropping 50 or 70% because of COVID. These are small operators. And so, the ability to help them by getting all of the monies that we’re trying to get to them can be very impactful.

Roy Hadley: [00:31:35] I mean, you know, when you close some of these loans and you talk to the people, they are genuinely appreciative of those funds. And so, you know, and they will make a difference, and they did make a difference. They kept a lot of these businesses afloat. Again, it was the difference between their doors being open and their doors being closed. And so, you know, if you can, as a lawyer, help effectuate that, I mean, it really warms your heart.

Mike Blake: [00:32:04] And, you know, again, my firm has a minimum requirement, but they are very supportive and I was genuinely appreciative of that support that said, “Hey, go do this. This is a good thing. This is a great thing. Go do this.” Because despite the fact that we too were impacted by COVID and those sorts of things, we still will support these types of endeavors by our lawyers to make a difference in the communities we serve. And I’ve put some emphasis on that word because we really do look at communities where we are as not as the communities that we operate in but as the communities we serve.

Roy Hadley: [00:32:51] And so, you know, here in Atlanta, as you mentioned, the mothership, as I call it, is in New Orleans, but we’re all across the south in terms of our footprint. But in each of those communities, we really do make a special effort to serve the community. And, you know, when people think about, and I know I’m going on on a tangent here, but when people think about pro bono, you know, we tend to think of the legal work that we’re doing. But also inherent in our commitment to the community, legal profession’s commitment, is that you see service to the community in other ways. You see lawyers on the United Way board. You see lawyers on the Red Cross board. You see lawyers on the Community Thief board. You see lawyers, you know, on the food kitchen board, you know.

Roy Hadley: [00:33:46] And so, you see lawyers that not only are doing pro bono work in the truest sense, but you also see lawyers that are out in the community serving on these boards, bringing expertise to these boards of these organizations that also serve the community. And so, you know, all of those nonprofit boards are going to be unpaid, but that’s okay because, again, that’s giving back to the community.

Roy Hadley: [00:34:16] And so, I would challenge all businesses, all business leaders to make a special effort to, you know, push your people because these are going to be people that have special expertise. These are going to be young people. Sometimes they have a lot of time, more time, you know, that can really get in there and serve the community, not necessarily in pro bono like, you know, we have originally defined it, but in terms of giving back to the community, by giving back to other organizations that serve the community. And I think that’s something that also we should really highlight and talk about for the listeners to make sure they understand there are many, many ways that even if you’re not a lawyer, you can serve in the spirit of pro bono service.

Mike Blake: [00:35:08] So, I want to posit something to you, and I’d appreciate your reaction to it. Can’t you also make the case that there is in your profession, and I think I think mine, and as I sort of think through this conversation, I want to interject because I need to be fair. For all I know, there’s a ton of pro bono work that’s going on in my profession, in my company, I just don’t know about it, right? But I do know it’s not institutionalized. We don’t have an award for pro bono, right?

Roy Hadley: [00:35:41] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:35:42] And there are probably opportunities to make it more efficient by aggregating it. So, I do want to get that out there. But that having been said, can you also make a case that the pro bono work could be a great opportunity for somebody that doesn’t have a lot of experience yet to kind of cut their teeth on certain kinds of matters? You know, it could be a first chance to cut your teeth in litigation or, in my world, serving as a consulting or even potentially a testifying expert. Or, you know, in some cases, just sort of getting out of the office and rolling up your sleeves and getting into real world, real life, real business issues where you have to provide, you have to get into really, the very real scenario of providing a client with advice under extreme duress. And, you know, there’s no – I don’t think there’s any class in the world you can take that, would ever prepare you for that. You just have to get in. You just have to get in there, right? So, can we argue that there is a professional development aspect to pro bono work in the way that we’re describing that is also very helpful?

Roy Hadley: [00:36:58] Absolutely. You know, again, you know, the requirement here at this firm and most firms is not, you know, no requirement for young lawyers, 50 hours for senior lawyers. It’s for every lawyer, which means that young lawyers have to get out and do something. Now, what we do here in the legal profession is, again, we try to kind of stay in your lane. But if you are volunteering, say you’re a young lawyer and you are going into something you don’t have the expertise on, you know, you get a senior lawyer that does will help you navigate whatever that is. But it is an excellent opportunity, as you said, to learn new areas.

Roy Hadley: [00:37:42] You know, back – I’ve always been a corporate lawyer, but a lot of my pro bono cases when I was very young dealt with wage and hour issues, dealt with Social Security issues, dealt with evictions, you know, nothing within the lane that I was in. But because I did those things, I did learn about those types of areas of the law. But more importantly, and I think this is one of the things that is kind of underpinning your statement, is I learn how to work with clients. I learn how to interact with people. I learn how to listen and understand the issues and the problems, and then come up with real-world solutions and not just theoretical kind of book solutions.

Roy Hadley: [00:38:30] You know, it’s one thing kind of to do a law exam and come up with a solution to a question, but it’s a whole another thing when you’re out in the real world. And, like most issues, things aren’t cut and dry. They’re not black. They’re not white. They’re shades of gray and those shades of gray shift, you know, depending upon who you’re talking to and what they’re saying. And so, in any profession, you’re going to be a better fill-in-the-blank if you have experience, you know, working with those nuances and those shades of gray that are constantly shifting on you.

Roy Hadley: [00:39:08] And so, pro bono work is a fantastic opportunity to get out there and learn a new area of the law, you know, to roll your sleeves up, to get some, as you said, that real-world experience, and quite frankly, for the legal profession, we encourage that. We encourage you to say, “Okay. I’m going to go volunteer for the Atlanta Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts and learn about contracts and that sort of thing.” Or, “I’m going to volunteer for Legal Aid and learn about helping to defend somebody in, you know, or help them navigate through certain parts of the system, whether it’s child support or those sorts of things.” You know, it may be a corporate lawyer going to Legal Aid. We don’t have those kinds of prohibitions.

Roy Hadley: [00:39:58] So, it’s a great, great opportunity and it’s a great opportunity for old lawyers, you know, like myself that have been practicing for a long time to get out there and do something different, learn a new area of the law, and quite honestly, like you said, get out of the office and, you know, actually look somebody in the eye, sit across the table from them, sometimes go and take them to lunch and break bread with them, and really understand the issues. Because most times kind of like any corporate matter, again it’s not just black and white. You’re going to need to be able to navigate those nuances and nothing like real-world experience to help you navigate those nuances.

Mike Blake: [00:40:45] And, another word that comes to mind that I think is so important, and I almost hate to bring it up because one of my fears, I’m afraid this word is going to become viewed as a buzzword and it really shouldn’t, it really needs to stick, and that is that I think the pro bono work you’re describing helps you develop and strengthen your empathy muscle.

Roy Hadley: [00:41:06] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:41:09] The kinds of cases you’re in, and I’ve only done a fraction of what you’ve done mainly through my old office hours, people sort of wander in, right. But, you know, they come in and the circumstances that sort of that got them there, right, in a paid scenario. You guys are in – I forget if you’re in Class A or Class B office space, but the fact of the matter is, I don’t want to get into – there’s a segue here. People are not wandering into your office most likely who are minimum wage people about to be evicted coming into the marble office, right, and reception room, saying, I need a lawyer. Right?

Roy Hadley: [00:41:46] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:41:47] And it sort of goes the reverse, right? So, unless you really make a concerted effort, you never encounter that. It’s very easy for people in our position that in fact we want to really isolate ourselves and never connect with that.

Mike Blake: [00:42:02] So, that’s a long preamble to the segue, which is if somebody – how do you – how do those opportunities to serve come your way? Right? Because they’re not calling. I don’t think – they’re not coming into your office. How do they find Adams and Reese? How do they find Roy Hadley to get the help they need?

Roy Hadley: [00:42:22] Right. So, you know, I’ll preface my whole statement here in response by your original premise of the empathy. And I think that’s important to kind of underscore here because one of my favorite sayings is, I complained that I had no shoes until I saw the man with no feet. Right? And so, you really have to always put things in perspective. And, you know, before you got on this kind of video here we’re talking and, you know, I’m always happy because I always try to keep things in perspective. And that perspective is that I’m fortunate. I’m blessed. You know, I am in a good place. Not everybody is as fortunate, right?

Roy Hadley: [00:43:13] And so, you have to remember that that a lot of times people’s circumstance is not of their choosing, you know, kind of dictates where they’re going in life and how they’re getting there. And you always have to be cognizant of that, that not everybody graduated from high school. Not everybody had the opportunity to go to college. Not everybody had the opportunity to go to grad school or to law school. And those are opportunities that are generally afforded to you, not by your own choosing, but by your circumstance. And so, I keep that filter in mind when trying to talk to people and help people. Everybody is not as blessed or as fortunate as we are, and so we just have to be cognizant, cognizant of that.

Roy Hadley: [00:44:06] Now, to get it back to the second part of your question, most times, yes, you’re right. To be quite honest, most people couldn’t get past security to come up to our office, right?

Mike Blake: [00:44:17] There. Fair.

Roy Hadley: [00:44:19] Speaking plainly. Right? What we do is we partner with, you know, institutions that are on the ground out in the community. So, you know, you’re talking about institutions like the United Way. You’re talking about institutions like, you know, Homeless Task Forces. You’re talking about the food banks. You’re talking about shelters. You’re talking about, you know, places like that, the Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts, you know, and those types of institutions that have their feet out and hands out in the community are going to be the frontline and then we partner with them. Legal Aid is another great example of an organization that has offices and people that are out in the community, you know talking to people that are accessible to people. They come in, they identify the need, and then we partner with them to address those needs.

Roy Hadley: [00:45:19] I was talking to – I had a good friend who was in the legal business, but he also had gotten into the restaurant business, and he and some other restaurant owners found it kind of a fund for their employees that, you know, if – the restaurant owner has put into the fund every month and employees could contribute whatever they want it too [inaudible]. And then, let’s say you then have rent money for a month or you were short on your rent or you’re short on your insurance payment, the fund would loan you the money or give you the money. But, you know, that fund also would help people who needed legal assistance.

Roy Hadley: [00:45:59] And so, you partner with those types of organizations, and that’s really how we do it. And that’s going to be the most efficient way because a lot of times, you know, issues can be resolved without even involving a lawyer, you know by somebody that has much more specialized practical expertise on it to say, “Hey, you need to take this form, fill it out and take it to this office there, you know, at this address, or we can take it for you.”

Roy Hadley: [00:46:27] And so, you know, those types of organizations will filter out, address a lot of things, you know, quickly and more practically, and then give the others to us, funnel them to us, and then we handle those through those organizations. And, we found that’s the most efficient and practical way to do it. And so, you know, if somebody needs help, go to those frontline organizations. And then, if they need more specific help, those organizations can get them to us to address the needs.

Mike Blake: [00:47:02] I’m talking with Roy Hadley and the topic is, Should I Provide My Services Pro Bono? So, I want to address a question that I think is important any time – because any time we talk professional services, the elephant in the room is always, what’s the liability? And, it’s unfortunate, but that’s just a fact of professional life. We have to protect ourselves or we can’t be in business very long.

Roy Hadley: [00:47:27] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:47:29] How, if at all, are there any kind of protections in place to ensure that you’re not taking disproportionate risk by taking on a pro bono case? Do you effectively have – and for example, you said, you know, pro bono is a great way to learn about a part of the law where you don’t have necessarily that much exposure, which to me means that – that means it’s going to be higher risk that something could go sideways. Are there structures in place to kind of help you manage the risk to make sure that when you’re trying to do a good thing, you’re not the good Samaritan that gets sued because you didn’t change the guy’s tire right on the side of the road? You know what I’m trying to get to?

Roy Hadley: [00:48:17] Right. Right. Absolutely. So, that’s a great question, and I can only address it from the legal standpoint, the legal law firm, you know, lawyer standpoint. I can’t really speak to other professions that might do volunteer work of this ilk. In the legal sense, you know, I talked about staying in your lane earlier, and what that means is that even if you are taking on a matter that you may not have expertise in, you get somebody at your firm who can help guide you, you know, just like they would in any other matter. You know, you use that matter as a teaching opportunity, as an opportunity to grow. So, from a staffing standpoint, we’ll always make sure that there is somebody on that matter that can provide general overall guidance.

Roy Hadley: [00:49:10] So, you may be a young corporate lawyer, you know, cutting your teeth in a pro bono litigation matter, but we’ll make sure we have a litigation senior lawyer, partner or senior associate that knows that area that can help guide you so that you don’t make those missteps. Because, you know, not only is it a legal exposure, but, again, you have to remember there’s a live person on the other end of the matter that it really impacts their lives. And so, you know, we will staff it the same way we staff a paid matter in terms of, you know, we may have a young lawyer working on it, but there’s going to be a more senior lawyer that actually knows how to do it and knows, you know, what needs to be done to oversee that young lawyer. So, we’ll always staff pro bono matters that way.

Roy Hadley: [00:50:01] We actually have a pro bono partner. And so, all pro bono matters at the firm have to be approved by this part. Part of that process is making sure that we’re putting the right staffing on the matter so that we have the right expertise on the matter.

Roy Hadley: [00:50:19] Now, the second part of it is pro bono is so ingrained in the legal culture of law firms that our professional liability insurance also covers pro bono matters. So, if a firm just happens to screw up something, you know, inadvertently, their professional liability coverage, generally speaking, will cover those types of matters also. But again, that’s just because pro bono is so ingrained in what we do as a profession that it is generally speaking covered under most firms’ and lawyers’ liability policies. But again, you go back to that first part of it and that is, you staff it no differently than you would staff a regular paid matter. You know, if a regular paid matter came in and that young – you wanted to put a young lawyer on it or that young lawyer wanted to be on it, you would have a senior lawyer supervising them, be no different than that for a pro bono matter.

Roy Hadley: [00:51:24] So, you know, again, it’s just one of those things that it’s just inherent in us. But pro bono doesn’t mean no expertise. You know, pro bono doesn’t mean shoddy work. You know, we’re going to perform the work at the same level and the same standard that we would paid work. We’re just not getting paid for it.

Mike Blake: [00:51:48] Yeah. And do you have a couple more minutes or do you have a hard stop?

Roy Hadley: [00:51:52] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:51:52] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:51:53] There’s one –

Roy Hadley: [00:51:54] I’m billing you for this, by the way, but –

Mike Blake: [00:51:59] Okay. That rolling sound you heard, that’s the meter, right?

Roy Hadley: [00:52:03] That’s right. That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:52:06] Yeah. But the two questions I want to make sure that we got through, and then I’ll let you go. But one, you segued so nicely and I have to ask you, which is, how do you gear yourself up to give a pro bono client the same level of care and attention that are paying client is giving you? Because, you know – and we’ve both done pro bono work. You’ve done more than I have. But one of the things you learn pretty quickly in professional services is that a, quote-unquote, free or very low fee case can easily become as complicated and as frustrating and as emotionally challenging as the big bulge bracket case. In fact, in many ways, those are going to be hard cases for a lot of reasons we are not going to go into it but we both know.

Mike Blake: [00:52:59] When you recognize that, you know, there’s never going to be a billable moment at the end of this thing or in the middle of this thing, how do you stay focused and make sure that you don’t fall into the mental trap? “Ah, well, you know, they’re not paying anything so they can always take a back seat.” Or, you know, “I don’t have to treat this as the same due care.” How do you maintain that mindset, that professional mindset that no matter who you are, how much you’re paying me, you’re getting the same, the very best fastball the Roy Hadley has to throw?

Roy Hadley: [00:53:32] Right. So, you know, and that’s a great question because human nature would probably be “You know, okay, I’ve got to do this or do that.” And what you do is, you know, it all comes down to prioritizing and time management. And I’ll start with the time management in the sense, as a – you know, it’s easier for me because I’m a senior lawyer, and when I look at something, I can pretty much tell what it’s going to be, right? I can say, “Ooh, this is going to be complex.” “So this is going to be a simple thing.” You know, they always shift on. You know, we’re talking about those shades of gray shifting on you earlier. They always shift on you.

Roy Hadley: [00:54:11] But you know, just like a regular matter, you look at it, you assess it, you figure out on the front end what it’s going to be. And then, you know, just like a regular matter, you try to avoid that thing kind of going down the yellow brick road on you. You try to avoid scope creep, you know.

Roy Hadley: [00:54:31] And so, if you are, let’s just say, working on a rent issue, right, and you’ve been tasked with working on a rent issue, then, you know, you don’t want to go down to the scope creep. “Yeah. But, you know, my child’s father hasn’t been paying his child support. You know, can you help me on that?” Well, I can steer you to somewhere that can, you know, and it may come back around to me, but that’s not within the scope of what we’re trying to do.

Roy Hadley: [00:55:05] And so, you know, the empathy part of you wants to help. But just like a regular matter, you have to kind of set those guardrails to make sure you don’t get that scope creep, you know. And then, you just set that into your daily schedule and you just say, “Okay. On Wednesday, I have to do X and I’m going to allot two hours for that.” And you get X done and that X may be a paying client. That X may be a pro bono matter.

Roy Hadley: [00:55:36] But then, you know, just like anything else, an emergency may come up and you may have to push things down on the priority scale. And so, that’s when the professionalism that you kind of mentioned comes into play of knowing how much something is going to take, how much time it’s going to take, where it’s going to fall in the priority scale for that day. If they’re about to be evicted tomorrow, you know, then that’s going to be a priority one. If they just got the eviction notice and the eviction hearing is in a month, okay, that may not be priority one for today. You know, that may be priority three or four.

Roy Hadley: [00:56:18] And so, you just kind of mold it into your daily schedule and what you have to do and what you’re doing to make sure [inaudible] that client proper representation within the realm of everything that you’re doing.

Mike Blake: [00:56:35] Roy, this has been a great conversation. I’ve only gone through, I think, about half the questions I prepared. But I need to let other people benefit from your expertise and your empathy, so we’ll leave it at this. There are probably questions that our listeners would have liked us to cover either at all or in greater depth. If somebody wants to follow up on this and ask about pro bono work and how to get involved in that and how to do it right, can they contact you, and if so, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Roy Hadley: [00:57:06] So, the easiest way to do it would just be absolutely you can contact me. Absolutely. The easiest way is just shoot me an email and that’s going to be roy, R-O-Y, dot hadley, H-A-D as in David, L-E-Y, @arlaw, A as in Robert – A is an apple, R as in Robert, law.com. So, it’s roy.hadley@arlaw.com.

Roy Hadley: [00:57:31] And, you know, always happy to help. Love talking about this thing and the original question, you know, should you be doing pro bono? Regardless of what field you’re in, the answer is absolutely yes, you know, in terms of whatever kind of that pro bono looks like, whether it is doing legal work, doing accounting work, or whether – you know, it doesn’t have to be that complicated. It can be going down and serving at the soup kitchen. It can be going down to the food bank and helping get food in and segregating it and passing it out.

Roy Hadley: [00:58:11] It can be, you know – I took my daughters down over Christmas. We went down to an organization down in downtown Atlanta, had kind of a thing for homeless people, so we served meals to them. We had care packages for them. We gave haircuts to people. We gave manicures. We had medical facilities. We had shower facilities. And so, we just served. And, you know, my daughters and my wife and I passed out food for five or six hours that day. And, you know, it’s that spirit of giving that whether you define it as pro bono or volunteering or just a day of service, whatever that spirit of giving is and how it manifests in you, it should be done in my opinion. Again, whether you call it pro bono or whether you call it something else.

Mike Blake: [00:59:08] Well, thank you for all that you and your family do and service to our community, and I think I’d be remiss – I’d love to give you an opportunity to share with your Twitter handle because I know you’re pretty active on the platform. So, if you’d like to give out your Twitter handle on the podcast, here’s your opportunity to do that as well.

Roy Hadley: [00:59:24] Okay. Yeah. You’re putting me on the spot because, you know, it’s kind of like your home, you know your phone numbers. You don’t say them that often. But it’s GovCyberPrep. So, G-O-V, cyber, C-Y-B-E-R, prep, dot – what is the end of Twitter? Dot? I think –

Mike Blake: [00:59:42] There’s nothing. It’s nothing. That’s just it.

Roy Hadley: [00:59:44] Right. It’s just @GovCyberPrep.

Mike Blake: [00:59:48] Yup.

Roy Hadley: [00:59:48] And also, I do a lot of LinkedIn. And so, you know, you just search for me, Roy Hadley, on LinkedIn. And a lot of times it’s related to cybersecurity, but a lot of times it’s just related to life and what we’re doing in life and how we should be approaching it. So, you know, I welcome you to follow me and what I do there also.

Mike Blake: [01:00:10] That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Roy Hadley so much for sharing his expertise with us.

Roy Hadley: [01:00:17] Pleasure is mine.

Mike Blake: [01:00:17] We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next business decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us that we can help them.

Mike Blake: [01:00:33] If you would like to engage with me on social media with my Chart of the Day and other content, I’m on LinkedIn as myself and @unblakeable on Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, and Instagram. Also, check out my new LinkedIn group called Unblakeable’s Group That Doesn’t Suck. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.