Saving Real Money with R&D Tax Credits, with Tommy Zavieh, Frazier & Deeter

Questions and Topics in this Interview:

• Tommy’s background
• the Forgiveness Optimizer, a propriety tool of Frazier & Deeter which helps track PPP loan use of proceeds
• saving companies money with R&D tax credits
• wide range of industries, from mining to breweries to financial services, whose activities qualify them for R&D tax credits
• three year lookback
• R&D tax credits are a highly specialized and complex part of the tax code

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:05] From the Business RadioX Studios inside Renasant Bank, the bank that specializes in understanding you, it’s time for North Fulton Business Radio.

John Ray: [00:00:19] And hello again everyone. Welcome to another edition of North Fulton Business Radio. I’m John Ray, and we are coming to you from our virtual business RadioX studio. No, we’re not inside Renasant Bank, but we still love the folks there and the good work that they do. We’ve got a great guest today, and  we’re going to be talking about saving money, not just a small amount of money, but a lot of money with R&D tax credits. We’ve got Tommy Zavieh. And Tommy is a national practice leader with Frazier & Deeter, a well-known regional accounting firm here in Atlanta.

John Ray: [00:01:01] But before we get to Tommy again, I just want to remind folks that the bank branches at Renasant are closed to just walking in. You’ve got to go call and make an appointment. And they’re happy to see you, but you’d need to make an appointment ahead of time. The drive-throughs are open, so feel free to take advantage of those. But they’ve done an awesome job with some of this PPP loans and some of that work. I know that firsthand. So, check them out, give them a call, be in touch with your Renasant banker, or go to renasantbank.com for the latest. Renasant Bank, understanding you. Member FDIC.

John Ray: [00:01:43] And now, I know I got your attention with this idea of saving money. And Tommy Zavieh from Frazier & Deeter is gonna guide us through that, and we’ll get to that in a minute, Tommy. But welcome. And before we get into what you do and how you help folks, tell us about you.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:01:59] Hi. And thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

John Ray: [00:02:01] Sure.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:02:01] And all your listeners out there, look, I know these are difficult times, and we’re all trying to figure things out. But hopefully, today’s discussion will give you some ideas of what are the different areas that you can look at to save some cash. A little bit about me, I have had a long career of different subjects that I’ve done. So, I used to be an engineer turned CPA. And that helps me really understand the business of my clients. What is it they do from the engineering geeky side, and as well as the CPA tax side of things. That led me to work with the Big Four where I was in New York, California, and moved overseas to do specifically research and development credits. And lately, the last place that I was at, I was at KPMG leading their Southeast practice before joining Frazier & Deeter.

John Ray: [00:02:59] Awesome. So, Frazier & Deeter, let’s get into that. We know that firm very well. Highly regarded firm. Why did you leave KPMG, another highly regarded firm?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:03:11] Yeah. It’s one of those opportunities. I had known Frazier & Deeter for many years and a very well-respected firm that has gone from being a regional firm to a national firm to, now, we’re international. We have offices all the way west to Las Vegas and across the pond in UK and London. We have an office there as well. And in their growth, they were looking to have somebody come and lead this practice, and it was an opportunity that I couldn’t pass up at the time that it became available.

John Ray: [00:03:46] Yeah, I said regional. And thank you for pointing that out in a nice way, the way you did, because Frazier & Deeter is truly a national and international firm now, particularly, with the London office and all the work around the world that you do. So, congratulations to you and your firm on that growth. So, you’re the national practice leader, Tommy, for research and development. What does that mean? What does it mean to clients?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:04:14] Yeah, that’s just a pretty title. What I love about what I do is I get to go and really see firsthand and sometimes, quite frankly, before the consumers see what wonderful job the businesses that are doing in this country. I get to talk to the C-level suite folks and really get to understand the business. And then, my passion is really get to talk to the engineers who are developing the wonderful products that we all use, whether it’s in the technology sector, software, manufacturers in this country, or oil, gas, mining. I’ve been very lucky in my career that I’ve gotten to see so many different areas that the businesses in the US, what is it that they do, how they do it, see it firsthand before anybody else gets to play with it. I’ve had the chance to look at it and see it firsthand.

John Ray: [00:05:20] That’s awesome. And I’m envious, by the way. That’s a nice place to be to see all that innovation in the future, really and, particularly, in a time like this where people are getting all kind of down, really, about what’s going on currently and with good reason, but there’s a lot of hope in the future. And you see that.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:05:45] Yeah. And when you asked me earlier why did I join Frazier & Deeter, I think the other part of it that I want to really highlight is because the kind of clients that we have, that middle-market client. I get to not just shake the owner’s hand, but I get to talk to all the workers. And as wonderful as the opportunity that I had working at the Big Four and really seeing some of the larger companies out there, I think what it came down to for me is being helpful to the middle market in our country, walking to the plants, and talking to the workers, seeing what they do, and the impact that we can have with the small work that we do but that cash savings that we have for our clients that helps them keep the doors open for a few more months or for a few more years, or the investment they need to make in new and better equipment. I had a chance to go into a mine in Kentucky and got to see firsthand how coal is being brought out. And I went deep, deep into the mine. So, those are the kind of experiences that I don’t know where else in the CPA firm you can experience having those experiences.

John Ray: [00:07:10] Yeah, for sure, for sure. Folks, if you just joined us, we’re speaking with Tommy Zavieh. And Tommy is a national practice leader for R&D at Frazier & Deeter. Now, Tommy, I want to get further into the R&D part of what you do with clients in a second, but one of the things you’re really involved with with the firm right now is the PPP and really the aftermath of PPP, something called the forgiveness optimizer. Talk about that, and talk about the importance of this tool.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:07:43] Yes. So, thank you so much for asking that question. And today’s discussion, the topic, if there’s anything you’re going to walk away from this, that’s probably cash savings. So, this is one of the other areas that you probably looked at and applied for the Payroll Protection Program. And that application process was hectic. You had to quickly do it. We all know that the money run out. And so, now that you’ve gone through the application process, hopefully that you got approved. And now that the moneys are coming in, what do you do?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:08:14] And there’s two parts to it. One is, what do you do with that money to make sure that you reach the level or get it forgiven if that’s the goal because at the end of the day, even if it doesn’t, it is very cheap money. It is 1%. So, it is very helpful. But say, your goal is to get it forgiven, what do you need to do to do that? And then, the last part of it is the banks need to certify that you used the proceeds properly and the levels at which you can get it forgiven.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:08:47] And that’s where at Frazier & Deeter, we have a team dedicated to this program who have delved into the technical aspects of it. And quite frankly, some of it is still unknown. Guidance has not been issued. So, that’s what our team has done. And we will help the applicant who has applied for the loan to optimize it. So, have you reached the 75%? What happens if you’ve lost a headcount? Have you replaced that headcount? What if you try to save cash in these times? And who do you pay? Who do you reduce their income?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:09:26] For example, if I’m a business owner, and I make more than $100,000, and I’ve got five employees underneath me, and I’m trying to save cash, do I not pay myself, and then give some bonuses to my employees? Would that be helpful or not? Do I stay above the 65%? And then, we also help you certify the way you use the proceeds. Then, when you go to the bank and you give them your documentation, the substantiation, we will certify that you’ve used the loan proceeds properly, so that the banks can process that quickly and get it forgiven.

John Ray: [00:10:08] Now, you briefly mentioned the 75%. Well, for folks that aren’t familiar with that threshold, what is that?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:10:17] Yeah. So, you have to use 75% of the loan proceeds towards your payroll. And then, the other 25% have to go towards eligible cost, such as renting, utilities, a mortgage. If you don’t reach the 75%, and this is one of the big areas that guidance has not been issued, will a portion of your loan get forgiven or none of it? So, what if you reach 74.5%?

John Ray: [00:10:52] Oh, boy.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:10:53] By half a percent, did you just lose the entire forgiveness or a portion of it? And again, guidance hasn’t been issued. We know that each bank will make their own determination. But if you plan ahead and you know what your expenses are or you think what your expenses are, then, hopefully, you’ll know what percentage you’re going to reach. If not, be on top of it, which we can help you with, obviously, our tools, but make sure you reach that 75%. That is something that if you’re close to it, you don’t want to miss out.

John Ray: [00:11:31] This is where the accounting industry in your CPA, if you’ve got a good CPA – if you don’t have a good one, call Frazier & Deeter – but if the CPA industry is going to be extraordinarily helpful, this is where they shine when it comes to this kind of issue in dealing with the IRS and dealing with forgiveness later.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:11:56] Yeah. Look, I think many CPAs and many companies will help you out in that loan application process. They are well-versed in it, and they’re doing a terrific job.

John Ray: [00:12:07] It sounds like you’ve kind of gone the extra mile, though, in terms of having a tool that’s really easy for people to access and use. And congratulations on that.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:12:19] Well, thank you. There are a lot of calculators out there, but we have yet to see anyone that has the optimizer portion of it. And we’ve had many sessions with a variety of banks, including Renasant Bank, who’ve told us this is extremely helpful to their applicants, and they are letting them know that we have it available to help them up.

John Ray: [00:12:42] Cool. Awesome stuff from Tommy Zavieh. And Tommy is the national practice leader for R&D with Frazier & Deeter, an international accounting firm and an advisory firm, business advisory firm headquartered here in Atlanta. Tommy, let’s get into the R&D aspect of what you do. You save companies real dollars. Talk about that.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:13:13] Yeah, look. So, I’ll give you a little bit of statistics. I think everybody likes some numbers. Out of the latest that’s available to us, R&D is a little over $13 billion industry. And that is made up of 70% manufacturers. And then, the other 30% is technology firms and others who are doing R&D. I know you would have thought, “Okay. Well, software technology would make up the majority of it.” No, manufacturers are. But if you’re a biopharmaceutical, if you are in the health care industry, if you are oil, gas, mining, you’re doing R&D. As long as you are taking something, and you’re improving on it, and making something new, you’re probably doing R&D. But the problem is that only about 30% to 40% of the companies take advantage of this. The rest of them are not.

John Ray: [00:14:14] So, can we stop there for just a second? That’s really important because I think companies hear, or executives, business owners hear the term R&D and they think like technology, right?  And so, if I’m not technology, I’m not doing R&D.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:14:32] Correct. So, look. Like I said at the beginning, I introduced myself, I said I was an engineer. And I feel that I still think like an engineer. And I certainly have a definition as an engineer what research and development is. But the way that the tax code, the way Congress when they passed this law decades ago, the way they defined R&D is a little bit different. And as long as you meet the definitions of research and development, then your activities qualify. So, many companies either have never heard of it or if they’ve heard of it, they either they don’t apply, it does not apply to them, or that they’re not spending enough money to warrant an R&D study.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:15:12] So, the part that I really love about my job is education, going out there and educating companies about R&D and how it would apply to what they’re doing. And take your bank, Renasant Bank, Renasant Bank is performing R&D, especially with the security stuff that they have to deal with, the online banking. You have to put in security systems into place to make sure that nobody gets in and, for example, take money out of my account. All those security procedures, all of that research and development goes into it. So, it’s not just the big banks that are doing it. You’re a credit union, you’re a regional bank, you’re performing R&D.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:16:02] Take our businesses in North Fulton, the manufacturers, the makers of widgets or you are in the food industry, we have very, very large fortune companies here in Atlanta. And they’re experimenting with food and how to make it taste better, how to make it last longer, how they keep it on the shelves longer, food science, that’s an area that gets often overlooked. I mean, the easy stuff, “Yes. I make the latest and greatest and nobody never seen,” but that’s not how the definition goes.

John Ray: [00:16:45] So, by definition, Tommy, what we figured out, you said 30%, only about 30% of companies are eligible for this tax credit use it. By definition, most of the people listening to this show on tax credits don’t use it and need needed. So, let’s get into it. How can they leverage R&D tax credits? And how do you help with that?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:17:10] Yeah. So, the beautiful thing is that a few years ago in 2016, the R&D credit became permanent in the tax code. It used to get renewed every two years. And in that, they added something for startup companies to be able to utilize it. So, let’s take a broad scope. You’re a company that’s doing R&D, and it’s a credit. The credit is a deduction of your tax liability dollar for dollar. So, first, you got to ask yourself, am I a taxpayer? If you’re a taxpayer, then, yes, this is very helpful, whether at the federal level or at the state level. Now, if you’re not a taxpayer, then why do you care about R&D? You can care about it for several reasons. One, let’s say you are trying to purchase another company. Well, those credits could mean something to you. And if that company has never done R&D credit, then you could be sitting on potentially huge cash savings for yourself. What about yourself? If you’re looking to be purchased, then you want to make sure you get top dollar for your company, and you got to have that R&D in there. And then, finally, if you’re considered a startup company, startup companies considered less than five years of $5 million in revenue, if you are in that category, then you can offset your payroll taxes with the R&D credit. That’s real cash savings.

John Ray: [00:18:34] Oh, wow!

Tommy Zavieh: [00:18:34] As a startup, obviously, cash is important to me. And we have tremendous amount of companies here in the Atlanta region who are part of either the startup community, or the incubators, or the accelerators, and they’ve had their series A funding that they’ve raised. Using the R&D credit saves them cash. And so, I would highly recommend that they talk to their CPA, and the CPA firm should have a specialist in this area. And let me tell you why. This isn’t just a plug for myself, but it really is. You want to use a specialist because this is an area that gets audited. And when it gets audited if you don’t have the proper documentation, not only can all of the credits get denied, but then there could be some potential penalties and fines associated with it. So, just like you go to your general practitioner doctor, your GP, they have a wealth of knowledge and they are fantastic at what they do. But if there’s an issue with your heart, they’re going to send you out to a specialist because you need that specialist to take a look at it. And this is an area that you definitely want to go to a specialist to take a look at your R&D credit.

John Ray: [00:19:47] I was gonna ask you about that. So, it sounds like this is not an area of focus for the typical CPA that’s focused on tax work.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:20:05] No, it’s not. And not every CPA knows everything in the tax code. And if you ever seen the tax code, you see have big and cumbersome it is. And we cannot know every aspect of of the tax law. I mean, I don’t know every aspect of the tax law. I’ve just decided to specialize myself in this one area, and it happens to be just one code section out of the many code section that we have, but it’s the second hardest code section that exists besides Subchapter K, which is your partnership. And so, it is easy to Google it, find the form, look at the instructions, and say, “Oh, I can do this on my own,” whether you’re the company or a CPA that says, “I can save my clients some money. I don’t need to go get a specialist.” The problem becomes when you get audited. Getting the right documentation, creating the right nexus, having that engineering report, being able to have the right activities in there, that’s where the complication comes in.

John Ray: [00:21:12] So, I want to dig into that a little deeper, Tommy, but let’s get clear on the industries that you work in because you mentioned several industries again that may not have thought when they heard R&D that they qualified but they really probably do. So, talk a little more specifically about some of the companies and industries that you work with.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:21:41] Yeah. So, I started out in New York. So, some of the largest clients that I had are financial services industry, whether it was your big banks, investment banks, or hedge funds because I spend a tremendous amount of money on modeling and figuring out how those models work. And automated and speed becomes an issue, not only just security like we talked about on the software side, but the speed of how things get processed. From there, I moved to California where, pretty much, a lot of the companies that you’re using today, and the clients are using today, and those who are listening using today, I’ve done their R&D. And then I got a chance to go to Australia where I did a lot of mining and wineries. Believe it or not-

John Ray: [00:22:31] Wow!

Tommy Zavieh: [00:22:31] … wineries and brewing companies do R&D.

John Ray: [00:22:31] Really?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:22:36] Yes. So, let’s delve into that because I think it’s an interesting one because not everybody hears about it. So, wineries, you have to think about how they’re growing the grape. There’s so much science that goes into how in the area, the region of the world they are, with the ground that they have, with the soil that they have, with the type of grapes that they have that they produce the best for the wine they’re trying to make, what do they put in that soil, and how how many times they have to check it to make sure they’re at the right levels. And then, they get the grape out. And then, now, they have to process that grape. How do you get it to the level that you want it to get the best wine? I mean, I can probably make vinegar, but I can’t make wine. So, how do you make the top shelf wine that they’re trying to make? And then, if you don’t, then what do you do? What do you do with that wine?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:23:30] Some of the local breweries that we have here in Atlanta, they’re performing R&D because they got certain raw materials that they have and trying to reach a certain type of a new flavor of beer profile they’re trying to reach. What if they don’t succeed at it? Many times, they don’t. That’s why you’ve got brewmasters who spend decades crafting  what they do. So, there’s there’s R&D in so many variety of industries that will take up a lot of time.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:24:06] So, let me let me say, who doesn’t do R&D? Typically, your service providers such as myself, a CPA firm, is not going to be doing R&D or law firms, unless they’re investing in technology they’re developing themselves. So, for your listeners out there, look at it this way. If you are making something that you haven’t made before, whether it’s software or something that’s a widget, you’re improving on it, and it could be performance, quality, reliability of that product, functionality of that product, if you’re in software, the speed of that product making it faster or better, then you’re more than likely doing R&D. So, reach out to your CPA firm, reach out to a specialist, and a lot of us perform this at a no cost to our clients, and we’ll take a look at it and see if you’re eligible for it.

John Ray: [00:25:05] Folks, we’re speaking with Tommy Zavieh. And he is national practice leader for R&D with Frazier & Deeter. So, Tommy, you got my attention. I need to look at this. I’m a business owner. I need to look at this for my business. How do I get started? What do I do?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:25:24] I think the first thing that you do is find yourself a good specialist in this area. If you don’t know where to start, start with your CPA firm. If you don’t have a CPA who knows this area, just go to www.frazierdeeter.com, and look under tax, and you’ll find our services, and I’ll be happy to take your questions. So, shameless plug for myself but-

John Ray: [00:25:51] That’s OK. That’s what we’re here for. But what do I need to bring you, right? What do I need to bring you? I’ll give you a call. What are you gonna ask me for? What kind of records do I need to produce? What kind of questions are you gonna ask me?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:26:07] Look, we try to make this thing as easy as possible at the beginning. So, we’re just gonna have a conversation. We’ll have a 15-minute conversation. And having done this for a couple of decades now, you get pretty good at it as to what you really need to ask for.

John Ray: [00:26:22] Gotcha.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:26:22] So, within a 15-minute conversation, I’ll know whether you’re performing R&D or not. And then, from there, then I’ll probably have another conversation with your equivalent chief technology officer or whoever it is that person who is leading the efforts on your product development. And then, from there, we’ll probably know how much an estimate of your R&D credit will be. And then, that’s when you can make a decision on whether you want to move ahead with this study or not. So, probably, you’ll look at about an hour of your time and somebody on your team’s time investment at the beginning.

John Ray: [00:27:03] Big ROI in that, Tommy.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:27:07] I think so. I mean, look, so far in 20 years that I’ve done this, about $1.6 billion of credits that I’ve done by myself for my clients. So, it’s not small numbers. These are big numbers. The reason why I’m on here on your show and talking to North Fulton community is that there are so many companies out there that could be taking advantage of this, and I’d love for them to know about it, so they can go after it.

John Ray: [00:27:38] Sure. Now, there’s a nice little thing here that I read in the show notes is that there’s a three-year lookback.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:27:46] Potentially more.

John Ray: [00:27:49] Oh, really?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:27:50] So, we all know that our tax returns are open for three years. So, you file your personal return, you don’t look and get audited for the next three years, so hang on to your records. We recommend seven years longer than that. But there is definitely a three-year lookback, but potentially more. So, it depends on how your business did, what are the different areas of your return that are may still be open to us that we can have a lookback. But technically, if you have been a C corp that has been in losses, I can go back 20 years, and look at that R&D, and say, “Well, before all this happened, many companies were having a stellar year, and they were having record years. So, maybe this year and next year, you’re going to be a taxpayer, so you’re looking at, ‘Okay. What do I need to do to minimize my taxes?'” Well, if you’ve been doing R&D for 20 years, you could have brought it forward to this year or next year and have gotten rid of your tax liability as an example. Yes, we have a minimum three-year lookback, but potentially more.

John Ray: [00:28:53] Wow, that’s big time. When people think back on the taxes they paid in previous years and getting a credit against all that they’ve already paid, that’s got to get folks’ attention. I would think.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:29:08] Real cash savings.

John Ray: [00:29:10] Yeah, for sure. So, is this something that you file at any time, or do you have to wait until filing time for your annual tax return, or how does that work?

Tommy Zavieh: [00:29:23] Yeah, that’s a great question. So, the work can get done at any time, but it will go on your tax return when your tax return gets filed. So, we just passed the 4/15 deadline that got extended to July 15, but those taxpayers are going to be filing in July 15. If you want to file it on time on that return, this is the time to take a look at it. So, I would highly recommend that you think about it whether you want to put on that return. Otherwise, you would have to go and amend your return.

John Ray: [00:29:57] Let me make sure I’ve got this clear. So, this sounds like a kind of a once-in-several-years opportunity here because the deadlines have been pushed back for filing your return that you’ve got some time here that, ordinarily, the deadline would have passed for you to be able to take a look at this like right now and put whatever your findings are, put that into this year’s return.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:30:26] Yeah. So, let me make sure that I’m clear with it with your listeners.

John Ray: [00:30:31] Right. And clear up what I just said. They need to hear you, not my explanation of it. So, go ahead.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:30:38] I joke a lot with my colleagues at work that it’s only one code section, so how could it be so complicated? It really is complicated.

John Ray: [00:30:47] Sure.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:30:48] But let me see if I can simplify the complicated part of it. As long as the statute of limitations is open, you can take advantage of the R&D credit and put on your return, but it would have to be amended. Okay?

John Ray: [00:31:00] Okay.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:31:00] So, that part of it, I think, it’s clear. The uniqueness that we have today is because the tax deadline got extended. And what’s even more unique is that 2016 tax year, that we would have all filed in 2017, that filing period, that statute of limitation would have ended on either March 15 or April 15. That’s the uniqueness that we have that we’ve never had before is that statute of limitation has been extended. So, that year is still open to us.

John Ray: [00:31:33] Oh, wow!

Tommy Zavieh: [00:31:35] So, that’s the opportunity here that if you did a lot of R&D in 2016, and you didn’t know about it, had this been normal times, that statute of limitation would have been closed, and we wouldn’t be able to go back and claim those credits. But now, you can.

John Ray: [00:31:55] Let’s just let that hang there for a bit. That’s pretty awesome news for folks that need to hear it, I think. So, that’s awesome. Tommy Zavieh with Frazier & Deeter. So, I think I need to let you tell people how to get in touch with you because this is some stuff people need to absorb and get in front of the expert like you to get your help. So, let everybody know how they can contact you, Tommy.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:32:27] Sure. So, you can go on to Frazier & Deeter’s website, www.frazierdeeter.com. And then, underneath tax, we have a specific service line, research and development. Go in there, and you can contact us that way, or you can reach me directly on my email at Frazier & Deeter. That’s tommy.zavieh@frazierdeeter.com. Those are the most simplest way.

John Ray: [00:32:52] Sounds like a plan. Tommy Zavieh with Frazier & Deeter. It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for being with us.

Tommy Zavieh: [00:32:58] Thank you for having me on your show.

John Ray: [00:33:00] Yeah, it’s great. So, folks, just a reminder that if you need some help that involves maybe administrative task or bookkeeping, you probably need some bookkeeping help for some of the issues that Tommy mentioned, so you can get your book straight to give your CPA. I’ve got an answer for you that involves picking up the phone and calling Essie Escobedo at Office Angels. They’re not a temp agency or placement firm. They match your business support needs with angels who fly in with talent and experience that’s necessary to help you maintain and grow your business. It’s your terms and your timeline. They lend a hand when needed. And they fly off when the job is done. So, give Essie a call at 770-442-9246. She is awesome. I use her, and she and her angels are truly angelic.

John Ray: [00:33:56] So, folks, just a another little, I’ll say, shameless plug for ourselves, if you want to find our show, you will find it on any of the major podcast apps out there. And that would be Apple. Google, Stitcher, TuneIn, Spotify, Overcast, iHeart Radio, YouTube. We’re on all of them. So, check us out or go to northfultonbusinessradio.com. That’s real quick. And you can find all our shows there with business leaders we’ve had over the years. Now, four years, 220 plus shows with great business leaders like Tommy. You can find our show archive there. Also, connect with us on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Facebook, North Fulton BRX on all those social media platforms. So, for my guest, Tommy Zavieh, I’m John Ray. Join us next time here on North Fulton Business Radio.