Mike Cavaggioni with Average Joe Finances

Phillip Hearn: [00:00:03] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Doc’s discussions here on Saint Louis. Business RadioX Um, I get an opportunity to talk to a lot of different people in my lines of work, and this particular guest is probably one of the most fun conversations I’ve had here in the last 12 months, maybe even going back to the last two years. Uh, really bright, energetic guy doing entrepreneurship, owning real estate. And he’s got a podcast that you might have heard of, Average Joes Finance that is now in the top 1% of internationally ranked podcasts. So we’re being treated with a with a very special guest here today. I want to welcome everybody, all of our listeners to Mike and Joni. How are you?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:00:48] Hey, doc, I’m feeling good and I am super excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.

Phillip Hearn: [00:00:54] Absolutely. All right. How did I do with the pronunciation of your last name? I’ve been losing some sleep over this. Did I do okay?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:01:00] You did fantastic. It was great.

Phillip Hearn: [00:01:02] Did I?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:01:02] Yes.

Phillip Hearn: [00:01:03] I’m trying not to mess it up. I kept rereading it and trying to say it phonetically. So I appreciate your patience with me. So really happy to have you here. Thanks for spending some time with me today. I want to dive in. I’ve had a chance to read a bit about you, but I want to give our listeners a snapshot of how did you get to today? How do we get the mic that we know right now? Take me through your past experiences, your upbringing. You’ve got a very interesting history, so I want the listeners to be able to tap into that.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:01:32] Absolutely. So I grew up on Long Island, New York, not not in one of the best neighborhoods. Right. So for me, I pretty much didn’t have a choice. I had to join the military, which which is what I did. I joined the Navy to to kind of get out of the the situation I was in and also, you know, do something for myself. And, you know, I wanted to go to school and I wanted to figure things out and and kind of be on my own. So I was I was 17 years old and I had to have my parents sign a waiver to to let me go early. And so, yeah, I did. I joined the Navy at 17. I didn’t actually ship off to boot camp until I was 18. So that, you know, that worked out fine. But I wound up staying in for 20 years. Right? I spent a lot of time in Virginia. That’s where most of my time in the Navy was, down in Norfolk, Virginia, Virginia Beach area, that whole Tidewater area, and did a couple deployments, did some boots on the ground over in Baghdad at and just just a really well-rounded and diverse career right now. Towards the end, I wound up out here in Hawaii and liked it so much that I decided to stay. So, you know, the thing was throughout my career, you know, I bought my I’ll tell you about the real estate side of it, right? So I bought my first home when I was 22 years old, actually just turned 23.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:02:56] Actually, it was, uh, we closed I think, four days after my 23rd birthday. But anyway, we, um, we get this house and it was in an area that probably wasn’t the best for rental opportunity or even really for, you know, the actual appreciation of the market because I bought it in 2007 and we all know what happened, you know, over the next two years after that. So that kind of was very painful. So fast forward a little bit. I wound up having to short sell that property a couple years later for 93,000 less than what I paid for it, which was very painful. Absolutely. So that that definitely put a bad taste in my mouth. My wife and I were like, Uh, we’re not sure if the real estate game really is for us because we, we wound up renting that place out for a little bit and we were losing money every month because we had a high mortgage payment and we couldn’t rent for what we thought we could in that area. So it was it was kind of an eye opening experience. But we decided, you know, hey, we can’t stay out of the game forever. We can’t just keep doing this, you know? Just the Navy and let that be it. Right? So we had to figure something out. When we found out we were going to come to Hawaii, we came up with the plan to pay off all of our debt, and that was our focus, right? So we you know, obviously we were following the Dave Ramsey baby steps, but we only did steps one through three because that was to get rid of the consumer debt.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:04:25] And that’s what we focused on. So we had like a two year window. So we paid off all of our debt and we saved up $40,000 after paying off all of our debt, which we had probably about $28,000 in credit card debt. And we had a couple of personal loans probably adding up to about 40 to 45,000. So it was it was a pretty good, pretty good run over that two year period. We come out to Hawaii and we said, let’s try to buy a home again. Let’s make this happen. So we did. We bought a house out here. You know, it was probably the best investment we made because the appreciation in Hawaii is absolutely bonkers. And then, of course, you know, over the past couple of years, that kind of helped as well. But it generally always appreciates, you know, between three, five, sometimes 7% a year. Right? So we bought this property and it’s worth probably almost 400,000 more than what I paid for it, which is fantastic. And that was back in 2018. But anyway, we get out here to Hawaii and sorry, I’m long winded. I’m from New York. I can’t help it.

Phillip Hearn: [00:05:28] I love New York because that’s why I think we get along was one of my favorite places to travel to. So. No, you’re good.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:05:33] There you go. There you go. So. So we get out here and we buy this house and we’re like, Let’s start looking into possibly investing in real estate. Like. Like for real this time. Like, get all in on this. And ran into a buddy of mine who was stationed on the Theodore Roosevelt Roosevelt with back in Virginia. And he was investing in real estate, doing really well at the time. I think he had 27, 28 doors. I knew both him and his wife very well and said, hey, you know, I’m trying to get back into this and I want to, you know, learn more from you guys or show you guys like what I’m looking at. Tell me if this makes sense. And they’re like, Yeah, let’s let’s set up a lunch and and we’ll go over a couple of things. So we, we bought them lunch and then I, you know, grabbed the, the stuff that I found, the deals that I was looking at and brought it over and said, Hey, you know, here’s what I found. You know, there’s these two different duplexes that I like that really stand out to me. Here’s what the numbers look like. This is, you know, I think this could be a really good investment. And, you know, they were looking and they were like, yeah, these two are both really good. Basically, you could pick either one.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:06:41] Um, you know, and just looking at the numbers like it was going to cash flow very well. So now again, that’s just on the numbers. That’s not looking at the property, that’s not, you know, making sure that it’s in good shape or anything else. This is just going off of the MLS listings that we found. Right? Right. So anyway, we decided, hey, we’re we’re going to go for it. And we buy this duplex in Chesapeake, Virginia. Now, we we started this whole process back in November of 2019. We closed on this property in February of 2020. So think about that date. I don’t know what the heck. Really good. I don’t know what’s going on with my timing here, man. But I felt like, you know, big man upstairs was like, Hey, man, real estate is not for you, Guy. Just kind of sit down and go to your Navy thing, right? That’s what it felt like. So, um, yeah, so, you know, I wound up having my upstairs tenant not be able to pay their rent for about seven months, and I couldn’t do anything about it. My downstairs tenant was Section eight and that actually covered the mortgage and most of the expenses. So we were okay there. But any time like an emergency came up, like a toilet was broken or we had to replace a vanity cabinet or something, um, that was all coming out of pocket.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:07:55] So here I am now, at a net loss with this property, just trying to figure out, hey, how the heck am I supposed to get past this now? Um, so I wound up finding and this is the beautiful thing that, like, when you, when you find yourself in a crisis, you start searching for ways to help you get out of it, right? So doing some research, I found that the county of Chesapeake in Virginia was doing they had a rent repayment program for people that qualified for it. And I was like, Well, my tenant qualifies for it. He lost his job due to COVID, so let me see if I can get them enrolled in this. So I filled out all the paperwork and sent it to him. I said, Hey man, I just need you to sign this, bring it to the office. And they should, you know, cover your rent. And that way I don’t have to evict you and I don’t have to worry about any of that stuff. And you guys are good to go. I’m good to go. We’re all happy, right? Okay, so he signs the paperwork, sends it in, and they wind up back paying me all the rent that he owed me, plus late fees. So in the end, that that deal wound up cash flowing for $950 a month.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:08:54] So. Wow. So that that that first, uh, you know, guess, you know, I’m at bat and it was a bunt turned into an RBI. Right? You know, we brought somebody in with that. So it worked out really well. Anyway, I, I wound up selling that property and getting into multifamily real estate because I was going to these meetups, right? And of course, with COVID going on, everything was being done over Zoom. So I started going to a bunch of these and just learning as much as I could and, and multifamily real estate really got a grasp on me and I was like, this is this is something I really like and it’s a lot more passive. And I was super busy with my day job in the Navy, so I’m like, This is really appealing. So as I learned more and peeled back the onion, I said, Yeah, this is something I want to do. So I wound up getting my first multifamily deal after I sold that and wound up getting into two more over the next year. And that’s kind of where I’m at with my real estate right now. So long story short, that’s how we got there. Um, and all throughout that time, you know, serving 20 years in the Navy, winding up in Hawaii. I retired this past December and still here.

Speaker3: [00:10:03] That’s awesome.

Phillip Hearn: [00:10:04] I love stories like that because they show perseverance, Right? And truthfully, I’m also going to need you to let us know the next time you buy a property because that means something else is about to happen. So I kind of need a tip off from you of what, when you’re about to buy the next one, you know? So, um, so I’m going to start off this question with some gratitude. Dude. And I’m going to say first, thank you for your service. Tell us a little bit more about your naval experiences and how they help you today. Because, you know, we talked a little bit about it when I was lucky enough to be a guest on your show, and that seems to be a very big core of not only who you are, but how you conduct business. So if you could tell us a little bit more about that, how did that help shape who you are today?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:10:46] Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for that and great question. So, you know, I would say that the Navy has definitely shaped me, especially in my decision making abilities. And that’s going to be mostly from the fact that when I joined the Navy, I joined the Navy as an E-1, the lowest possible rank you could be. Right? I worked really hard and was able to make it to E-6 in six and a half years. Right. The highest you can go is E-9. Right. And when I was an E-6, so it’s a petty officer first class, I decided I wanted to apply for a commission and become an officer. And, you know, I was like, hey, you know, let me just try it out and and see what happens and, you know, just go through the process. So I know because most people take at least three tries before they get picked up if they ever get picked up. Right. It’s a very competitive program. So I was like, I’m just going to apply. I’m going to go through the process and see what it’s like. So I applied for the Limited Duty Officer program, and I actually picked it up on my first try, and I was very surprised. So here I was now at my eight and a half year mark, finding out that I was getting commissioned in a year, um, very interesting time in my life.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:11:59] And because I had gone from being an E-1, you know, being the guy that has to do all the, the, you know, the not so fun jobs and always getting told what to do and, you know, doing all the things that nobody else wants to do to, you know, up to E-6 where I was running the the division, you know, and making sure all my my folks were taken care of, too. Now I’m going to be commissioned as an officer and really start moving up the the chain of command here. So I said, okay, this is this is going to be interesting. So I commissioned and, you know, got to my first ship and was put in charge of one of the biggest divisions for, for the admin side. It was the personnel division. So I went from being an E-6 where I had like three people under me to now being a ensign, A01, and I had 42 people under me. And I’m like, Oh wow. Huh? This is different, you know? So it was a pretty it was it was a really good experience, right? Transitioning that way. And I learned so much right from that period that I was on the Theodore Roosevelt because I did three different division officer jobs while I was there.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:13:08] And I got to really experience a lot of different people’s leadership styles, right? Because I wound up having three bosses while I was there that kind of came and gone. You know, I’ve learned I learned some good leadership. I’ve learned some bad leadership, and I’m appreciative of every single leader that I’ve served under because they’ve always taught me something. Whether this was a good way to lead or whether it was a bad way to lead. Right. And I always learned from those experiences that I’ve had with every single one of them, whether I like them or not. Right. So. That was a defining moment for me, I think, in my career in the Navy. So shortly after that, well, not shortly after I did three years on the Theodore Roosevelt, and then I transferred to Naval Special Warfare Group ten, where I went from being a division officer to now being a department head and a director. Now, I went there as an O to a lieutenant junior grade and they put me in an O for a lieutenant Commander Billet Right? So I went from being in a brand new division officer job to now being in a department head slash director job just like that. And again, another huge learning curve and experience for me because now it was it was a lot different.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:14:21] Now I’m in charge of so I was in charge of a directorate, but also in charge of four other commands, all of their admin programs. So I had to go and inspect them and stuff. A couple of them were in Coronado, so every quarter I would fly out to Coronado out in California and get really great Mexican food while I was there. And and go around and inspect these areas and check on all the the sailors there and make sure they’re good. And it was another really great experience where I got to learn from, you know. Not only my superiors, but also my subordinates. Right. And also my peers. Really, really great experience. So these are the things that kind of shaped my decision making process right from there. Now I’m a lieutenant and A03. I go to another zero four job, another lieutenant commander job as the staff executive officer over at US Pacific Fleet out here in Hawaii. That’s how I wound up here. And now I’m you know, as a staff XO of enlisted personnel, I was second in command, right. Um, and we had 200 a total of, if you count all the chiefs and the enlisted folks, a total of 294 people under me. Oh, wow. Okay. Very different experience again. Right. But so rewarding because getting to experience these different leadership levels as I was, you know, going through my career in the military, it really helped shaped and mold my decision making process as well.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:15:47] So now I knew when I had a sailor that got in trouble and they were coming in front of me as the executive officer, that’s usually like the step before they go to captain’s mast and getting like really big trouble where they can get punished and stuff. Um, I had a really good process now for, for asking questions and understanding like where they’re coming from with the situations that they were in. Because you know what? I was in your shoes not too long ago when I was a young enlisted sailor, right? So those experiences were fantastic, you know, and and it helped me, I believe, like in my personal life, when it comes to making very important decisions, to really sit back, analyze and make sure the decision I’m making is the right thing and the right move for me and my family. Right. Real estate for me was was almost a no brainer. And I say almost because there was definitely a lot of reservations there from both my wife and I because of our experience with that first property back in 2007. Right? Sure. So. One of the things that I really feel like the Navy helped me with is that ability to persevere, even when you’re not too sure what that outcome might be.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:16:58] Yeah. So that is one of the things that when we decided to get back into real estate, we took a look back at what happened in the past with the previous one and said, You know what? We are not going to let that define us. And even the second time it happened with COVID, we said, we’re not going to let this define us. And we persevered and pushed through. And and yeah, that’s definitely helped me with my process. I believe my my time in the Navy. It’s been fantastic. Um, even the time I served overseas, you know, on deployments and in Iraq. Right. Um, some of the best experiences I’ve ever had was on deployment, because a lot of times when you’re in certain situations and you have to make decisions and they can be life or death decisions, right? It makes it really puts a lot of things into perspective, you know, for, you know, what your decision process is, and especially when you’re under pressure and have to make a quick decision, what kind of gears are turning and what kind of thoughts are coming up as you’re making those decisions, especially when you have to make one very fast. So absolutely, definitely, definitely helped me out, I think big time.

Phillip Hearn: [00:18:09] I love it and think the the nugget that is in all of that are those transferable experiences and those transferable skill sets, right? So there’s so many times where we all have felt this as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, a little bit of that imposter syndrome, right? But you’ve technically done the work that you’re about to do in real estate. It just wasn’t called real estate. It was a boat for for goodness sake. Right. And so you’re leading those folks and you’re leading those people. Same thing in a real estate transaction and even after. Right. So you have some empathy with, hey, I know I’ve got a renter in there. Lost her job during COVID. Let’s find a way to get you what you need. So I love those those stories of perseverance, but also transferring those experiences and transferring those skill sets. That’s that’s a lot of fun. That’s really awesome.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:18:59] You know, I’m I really appreciate that. But I want to point out one thing that you said that really sticks out to me, Doc, and that is imposter syndrome, right? That is something that I have suffered with ever since I started on my journey. Right. Even while I was in the Navy. Right. Like when I first commissioned and wound up, you know, in charge of my first division to when I was in charge of my first directorate to when I was in charge of my first command as an executive officer. You know, I look at those situations and I say, who the heck am I to be the guy in charge of this? Who the heck am I to be the one doing these things? You know, just a couple of weeks ago, I was I was a E-6, you know, on my ship. Um, you know, just making sure that my my 2 or 3 sailors were good to go. Now I’m here with 42 people in front of me looking for guidance, and I’m like, wow, you know? So, yeah, imposter syndrome, I think is something that whether you want to believe it or not, every single person suffers from. And it just it just what matters is how do you take that suffering? Do you turn it into a strength or do you let it become your weakness? And I I’d like to believe that I’ve turned mine into a strength.

Phillip Hearn: [00:20:12] Absolutely. No. And I think that’s beautifully said, just because you’re so right, we all see it and in different points in our life. Right? So they always talk about when you’re younger and in school, you’re big man on campus and you go from big fish in a small pond to now a small fish in a big pond, and it just forces you to have to tap into those experiences and those skill sets like you talked about. So it’s pretty cool when you can translate the work that you’ve done to see how far you’ve gotten to today. So I love those kinds of stories. So I think that was really important. I saw on your website as well with the Average Joe podcast that you have reached financial independence by the age of 38. The most important question I have, because everybody’s got their own definition and your personal definition, what is your definition of financial independence? Tell us a little bit more about what that looks like to you and your family.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:21:06] So for me, it’s when your passive income has exceeded what your monthly expenses are right to now. Like if you don’t want to work, you don’t have to, right? And for me, it’s the freedom to do what I want to do. Right? And that is the key word is freedom. So when you look at financial independence or financial freedom, right, that is the key word is freedom. So that is the number one thing that it means to me.

Phillip Hearn: [00:21:31] I love it. I love it. And it’s interesting, too, because, you know, younger guys. How old are you now, if you don’t mind me asking? 38. Okay. Okay. So this year. All right. So we’re we’re breaking breaking ground breaking new news.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:21:45] So 38.5.

Speaker3: [00:21:46] How about that?

Phillip Hearn: [00:21:47] Okay. Yeah. There we go. Because we all used to start with the house and the three fourths and the fourths and everything else. So what? When did that goal kick into overdrive for you? Right. So everybody’s got a goal of, Hey, I want to do this. I want to make a bunch of money, I want to do all these things and and those are great. But there’s some sticktoitiveness that you talked about. So what when did that crystallize as a goal of like, okay, not only am I, we’re going to do this, but here’s how I have to do it. How long ago did that tap into where you go, I’m going to be financed. I’m going to have financial freedom and we’re going to find financial independence.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:22:21] Yeah. So it was it was when I came out here to Hawaii and decided to get back into real estate again, I was, you know, getting closer to the end of my career in the Navy. I think at the time I was at 16 or 17 years when I came out here and I said, you know, my retirement from the Navy is not going to be enough, especially if we want to stay in Hawaii. So I need to start looking at other options. And that’s when I was like, you know, I want to start looking at real estate again because real estate is to me now again, I had already been investing in index funds and other things like that, right? Etfs. I started a mutual funds account for my children. Right. That is separate just for them. They probably have more money than me right now.

Speaker3: [00:23:05] But it always works like that because that was the.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:23:08] Focus. Right? But but the thing is like, you know, I said for for me personally, real estate, I like it because it’s tangible. It’s something that will always have a need for right people. That is one of the necessities of human life is shelter. Right? So we always need a place to we always need a roof over our heads. So for me, real estate, I felt like was yes, I remember what happened back in oh eight, oh nine, because trust me, it happened to me. Right? So yes, I do remember that. I remember the pain of that. But I also remember that recovery and that bounce back, right? Real estate, no matter what, if your idea is to hold, it will always make you look like a genius, you know, years down the road. Because if you hold it, it will undoubtedly go up in value, right? And for the most part, the the stock market’s the same way, which is why I prefer index funds and ETFs, not individual stocks, because consistently you’re looking at about a 10% return per year on average. Right. So as long as you’re well diverse and you’re focused on, you know, you have that end goal in mind that, you know, financial independence is what you’re seeking or just building your wealth is what you’re seeking, right? The idea needs to always be the long run. So I always I was always looking at my life in five year increments, right? So I knew when I came out here to Hawaii, like I’m in that retirement increment now, so I need to figure this out. And at the time, I wasn’t even really thinking about this because I just got out of debt, you know, I was like, Oh, I’m debt free now. You know, I’m the man. I don’t have to worry about all these credit card bills and all this other stuff. My car’s paid off. Like you can’t tell me nothing. And it turns out, yeah, you can still tell me something in real estate was was speaking very loudly to me.

Phillip Hearn: [00:24:55] I love it. I love it. So when you talk about your real estate and I know you’ve made that transition from residential to commercial or multifamily even, right? What has what has been that experience been like? Because I know a lot of folks, for instance, when they get into real estate, they’re like, don’t talk to me about anything other than the single family property. I can see right in front of me, right? Other folks. And I’m a big proponent of what you mentioned, that multifamily piece, right? I love that opportunity for if you have a big enough property, you’ve got one property manager that needs to come to one building as opposed to 30 buildings scattered across the city. So what’s been your attack plan as you start to make some of those transitions? Not to say you’ve forgotten about residential, but getting more into that multifamily. Take us a little bit into that insight.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:25:40] Yeah, absolutely. So like I mentioned earlier, when I when I decided to get over into the multifamily space, it was because of how busy I was right with my day job in the Navy. And I realized how much time that the residential real estate that I had, that duplex that I had was taking away from me. Right. Especially with it being back in Chesapeake, Virginia. And I’m 5000 miles away in Hawaii. Right. And doing everything sight unseen through pictures and videos was very tedious and also very time consuming. Right. You know, I hear those horror stories all the time where people are getting those phone calls at 2:00 in the morning because of plumbing issues and this and that. Well, I was getting those calls at technically 7:00 in the morning on the East Coast, But it’s still 2:00 in the morning.

Speaker3: [00:26:25] 2:00 for you. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. Not fun.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:26:28] Right? And, you know, like I said, when I was going through this whole process, I was going to these different meetups and I was going on these Zoom calls and I was learning about multifamily and the, the people I did my first multifamily deal with was actually the people whose zoom calls I was going to because I got to know, like and trust them, right? And it’s because I built these relationships with them. It wasn’t just like a Oh yeah, they showed me a slide deck That looks good. The numbers look good. I’m going to get in. No, they did a there was a couple deals that I missed out on. And sometimes I look back and I. And I and I’m like, Man, I should have got in on that first deal. But I’m like, No, everything happens for a reason at the right time. Yeah. So I wound up, you know, getting in and at the right time for me that I thought it was. But I saw I got to experience and see what they, they did on these previous deals. And it even gave me a more of a warm and fuzzy that this is the right group to get involved in. Right. Right. And so for me, it was the learning piece, right? There’s there’s a whole bunch of it that when I talk to people about when you’re getting into this side of real estate or any side of real estate, I have what I call these four pillars to building wealth.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:27:33] And if you want, I can go over them with you real quick. But this is kind of part of my decision making process as well. So that first pillar, right, is very important. But it’s education, right? It’s learning the particular niche or investment that you want to get involved in. You want to learn as much as possible. So books, courses or even just learning from the source itself, right directly from them. That’s a very important piece. That’s pillar number one. And all of these are important, but you’re going to you’re going to see where I’m going with this, right? Pillar number two is mentorship and coaching, excuse me. And of course, knowing the difference between the two of those. Right. Finding yourself a good mentor, that’s going to be the person that’s going to, you know, kind of guide you and say, hey, you know, maybe maybe just keep doing what you’re doing or the person that you can go to for like sage guidance. You know, when you’re not too sure about something or you want to learn a little bit more about something, they have that experience and that that that deep knowledge base that you can kind of tap into where a coach is going to be the one that, you know, coaches are usually paid for, right? And they’re going to be the ones that kick you in the butt and say, hey, stop doing A, B, C, and D, you need to get hot on doing, you know, the rest of this stuff.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:28:45] So I like both. I like having mentors and coaches because I think it’s it’s super important to have both. But either either way at least get one right. Sorry. That’s my dog barking back there. No, it’s okay. The third one is building networks and relationships. Right? So networking and building relationships and knowing the difference between the two. Right? So building a network is one thing, right? But building relationships is something that’s completely different than just somebody that’s being in your network. Right? So what I tell people is go out to networking events, go out to conferences, meet people. Right? It’s great if you want to pass out your business card to 100 people, fine. Whatever. Most of the time those business cards get thrown in the trash or they get thrown in a filing cabinet and they’re never seen again. So what I always tell people to do is go to these events, seek out 2 to 5 people, depending on the size of the event and how long you’re going to be there and really get to know them, exchange information like put their number in your phone. They put your number in their phone. Right. Exchange information. Learn about them. You know, if if the person you’re talking to has a kid that has a that’s in a soccer tournament that’s coming up and they’re going for states or something, remember that? Call them a week after it happens.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:30:00] Be like, Hey, how’d little Timmy do on that soccer tournament? You guys go to states, What’s going on? They will remember you. And when they have a really good deal that comes up, they’re going to say, Hey, remember that Mike guy, man? He called me up. He you know, he followed up with me and asked about Timmy’s game. That’s a that’s a real dude right there. I’m going to hit him back up, Right. Um, you know, because I got this good deal and I need a partner. So those are important things. Is actually building that relationship, building rapport with people and not just exchanging information and going on your merry way. Right. Um, the fourth and the most important pillar of all. And the other three don’t even matter if you don’t do this one, but you need the other three to get to this one. Okay? Action. You have to take action, right? So you can be educated all you want. You can have a mentor and a coach telling you what to do all you want. You can build as many relationships and network all you want if you don’t take action, all of that is for naught. So yeah, those are my four pillars and that’s all a big part of like how I make my decisions as well.

Phillip Hearn: [00:31:04] And I love those four pillars mean again, you know, my background being an education. So I geek out about the research and all the work, right? So like you said, a good book sometimes kind of gets your mind going, digging into that topic whole wholeheartedly. Agree. Luckily, I’ve been able to be and also have really good mentors and coaches, right? So working as a coach, it’s kind of like even if you’re giving that advice out as a coach, you have to live that advice too. So it kind of keeps you on, on your, your, you know, your head on a swivel, if you will. Um, I love the networking concept because I agree people exchange phone numbers even now, right? So we can have a QR code. I do all of my cards through a QR code. People will take a picture and never. Yeah, see, there we go. Look at that. So a lot of people will do that. And like you said, never go back and double check or follow up with that. So I was always a big proponent. I still am of following up something as simple as a quick message of like, Hey, it’s so great to meet you.

Phillip Hearn: [00:32:02] That keeps the conversation going. But the action piece, yeah, you can you can plan and replan and plan. Again, a little bit of paralysis analysis, if you will. If you don’t actually take off and go with it. Yeah. What have you been doing? Right? So I love the four pillars and I think those are seminal messages that anybody can use, no matter what their business construct, real estate or otherwise. So that’s a beautiful thing. One last real estate question for you, and I think listeners are probably going, how does he pull this off? So you said something very important. One of your first properties in Chesapeake, Virginia. Chesapeake Bay, Virginia, excuse me. You’re sitting 5000 miles away, five time zones away in Hawaii. Who are the most important members of your team to be able to pull this off? Right. Because I believe you not only have property, of course, in Hawaii and Virginia, but a couple other places, if I was reading correctly. So how do you pull this off with being so far away?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:32:57] So that is a great question. And, you know, on that first deal in Chesapeake that I probably didn’t have the right team in place. So I learned a lot of those hard lessons the hard way, right? Even though I knew better because I, you know, had really great mentors that said, you know, make sure you have your team set up first. Now, I had a great real estate agent out there, right. I had my property manager who was also my general contractor. And this is probably where I made the mistake. Right. Because they shouldn’t be the same person. Right. Okay. So that was one of the things I ran into because a lot of times he would be dealing with property management issues, not only for me but for other clients that he had. So when there was a contracting issue that I needed help with or a repair or something like that, sometimes the availability made it very difficult. And now I’m scrambling trying to find a plumber or something, you know, and I’m doing it from Hawaii making these phone calls. And I’m like, Yeah, sorry, I can’t meet you there because I don’t, you know, I’m 5000 miles away.

Speaker3: [00:33:57] You.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:33:57] Know, if you could meet my property manager there and then I’d have to get them synced up. So yes, that was probably one of the biggest issues I had to deal with. So having your team in place is super important, right? So you want to have a good real estate agent, you want to have a good property manager, you want to have a good general contractor. Right. And they should be different people. Right. But those are the those are the important things. Right. You know, who’s your boots on the ground in that area if you’re going to invest out of market. Now, with the other deals that I’m in as a limited partner, one of the beautiful things is I get to work with some amazing operators, right? So they have their entire team in place. Every time we get into one of these deals. And what happens is, you know, they have their boots on the ground. The entire team goes over there and looks at the property, you know, and they when they have the inspections and they’re doing all of, you know, just everything, right. So they they get somebody local to be the property manager. Right. It’s not just somebody that we kind of just sit over there and the entire process is in place before the deal, even before there’s even an offer on the deal.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:35:02] Right. They have everything in place. So that is one of the most important things is who do you have on your team? Who’s who are the important people that you’re going to trust in this? Because you cannot be there all the time, right? Actually, sometimes you can’t be there any of the time in my situation. So it’s who do you have that you trust that’s going to make sure that, you know, these assets are being taken care of and you’re not getting, you know, the short end of the stick on the back end. Right? So that’s important. So if you’re going to go into multifamily real estate, whether you want to be an operator and be a general partner or whether you want to be passive and be a limited partner. Right. The important piece is who’s on the team, right? So if you’re a general partner, what what are you bringing to the table for one? What kind of value do you add to the rest of the team? And then for two, what does everyone else on the rest of the team doing right, Making sure that everybody’s doing their own equal part? Now, if you’re a limited partner and you find a group of operators that you like and you find these general partners, you know, what are they all doing? What kind of background, you know, did you do on them and what have they done in the past, the deals that they’re looking at? Did you do your own due diligence on them yourself or did you just trust what was sent in that slide deck? I always tell people, too, if you go in as a limited partner, don’t just trust getting a slide deck.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:36:21] Do your own research on that market. Really learn about it. Don’t just say yes, because if you do that, you wind up getting yourself in a situation where somebody, you know, that team may not have done the best due diligence. And, you know, a couple months into the deal, there’s an issue. And now they need they’re going to do a capital call and they need more money from you because, you know, things went wrong because they miscalculated something or, hey, we didn’t know that, you know, it was at 40% occupancy. We thought it was at 80% occupancy because that’s what the previous owner told us, Right. So or they were on a month to month basis. And now that there’s new management here, everybody dipped out. So those are the things that are really important. So see what they’ve done in the past and really do your due diligence, not only, you know, on the team, but also on the actual investments and the assets that they’re that they’re acquiring.

Phillip Hearn: [00:37:14] Love it. And then this taps back into two of your pillars, right? So, of course, the last pillar of action, you’re going to be taking action. But that educational component and that networking component, right, making sure you’ve got folks that you can trust when you physically can’t be there at all times doing all the things. So I love that that that definitely ties back into the pillars as well. So I love a I love a good double dip when we can get them 100%. So you hit that financial freedom number this year, You know, within the half year or so you got your real estate investments, you’re starting to grow that. Plus you’ve got this fantastic podcast. Tell me how the podcast, Average Joe’s average Joe’s Finance want to make sure we keep pubbing that.

Speaker4: [00:37:57] And with you.

Phillip Hearn: [00:37:57] But tell me how that started and what made you say, I’ve got these experiences, I’m seeing them. I’m living them right as you as you describe. And now you’re on episode here, 166. I mean, how did we go from that to that? It’s like going from 0 to 100. Real quick, what does that look like?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:38:15] Yeah. So definitely appreciate that question and appreciate the shout out for the podcast. So yeah, so Average Joe Finances podcast started off as a blog, right? So I when I first came out here to Hawaii, I was super excited about the story that I had about getting out of debt and you know, what I did to get there. So, you know, what I told you at the beginning was kind of like some of the basic stuff, but there was other pieces to it. Like we were doing the envelope method. We wound up having sinking funds accounts, which actually was one of my favorite ways to invest and save, as well as pay off our debt. So if you don’t know what sinking funds is, if you go to my YouTube channel, it’s the first video on there. Um, but yeah, so we got into this and I started a blog and I had a buddy of mine who had just started a podcast, also somebody else that was on the Theodore Roosevelt with me. He got into some trouble and, you know, got and had a couple situations in his life where things kind of took a turn for the worst. And he started a podcast talking about resilience and how he was able to bounce back in life from those situations that he was in. And he got himself up into the top 5% within his first year of doing it. And he came up to me one day, he’s like, Hey, Mike. He’s like, You know this blog that you have here, Average Joe finances. This is this is really awesome and you’re sharing your story. I think it would be really beneficial to other people if you started a podcast to not only talk about this, but bring on other people that are doing similar things and share their story.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:39:49] Because, you know, I can tell just from the way that you write your blog posts and everything else that you’re doing here, that you’re trying to impact other people. It’s not just for you to, you know, document and record what you’ve done. It’s to try to help other people. I said, Well, yeah, I am trying to help other people. Um, so I was like, But I’m not sure I can do a podcast right now while I’m still in the Navy. I just don’t feel like I have the time. And if I do it, I don’t want to just, you know, wing it and, you know, try to figure it out as I go. I want to make sure I have a good plan and make sure I can get episodes out on a regular, consistent basis. He’s like, Man, even if you just do one a month, just trust me. He’s like, Podcasting is going to be big. Get into it. Just do it. I’m like, Fine, twist my arm. So I started the podcast and of course I did exactly the opposite of what I said I was going to do. I started the podcast without a plan. Yeah, I started it without having content really recorded. I’m like, Huh, uh, how am I supposed to do this? Like my first four episodes? 4 or 5 episodes? No, I think my first first three episodes were just me. One was an intro, one was my seven Steps to Beating Debt. And I forget what the third one was so long ago.

Speaker3: [00:41:02] And then my fourth one was my first interview. And that kind of happened.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:07] Because I reached out and said, Hey, I started a podcast and are there any real estate investors or people investing in the stock market or anything that want to come on my show and share their story? And, you know, got got my first interview. And for whatever reason, I was like hell bent on making sure that the episodes were only like 20 minutes long.

Speaker3: [00:41:26] Right, Right. So that was that was the goal, right? Because I was like, I want somebody.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:30] To listen to it, you know, on their drive to work and that’s it.

Speaker3: [00:41:33] Well, people listen to podcasts.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:34] On their commute to and from work, right?

Speaker3: [00:41:36] Yeah.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:37] Anyway, I learned about this later.

Speaker3: [00:41:39] On, But yeah, I was I was so hell bent on making it 20 minutes that.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:43] My first interview, the guy comes.

Speaker3: [00:41:45] On.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:45] You know, we’re having a great dialog even though it was a little robotic because at the time I had like, you know, set questions.

Speaker3: [00:41:53] I was like, I have to ask every single one of these questions, right? Even if I have to cut the guy off and make sure.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:41:58] That I get the next.

Speaker3: [00:41:59] Question in, which is kind of what I did, which was like, I wasn’t the best interviewer when I first started this.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:05] And, you know, we get to about the 20 minute mark and I’m.

Speaker3: [00:42:08] Like and he’s like, Yeah, I’m ready. You know, let’s keep going.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:10] You know what else you want to talk about?

Speaker3: [00:42:12] And I’m like, All right, well, that was a great interview. Thanks for coming on and and close it out. Like, not.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:17] Even realize using.

Speaker3: [00:42:19] What I had just.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:20] Done. And if.

Speaker3: [00:42:21] You go listen to that episode, you’ll you’ll.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:22] Listen to it and be like.

Speaker3: [00:42:24] Man, you just kind of cut this guy off and everything and and it’s okay, you know? And I talked to him.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:30] Afterwards and said.

Speaker3: [00:42:31] Oh, you know, this is.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:42:31] So you can come back on in the future for part two.

Speaker3: [00:42:34] Right, right. Um, and yes, I mean, I truly meant that, but at the same time, I’m like, Man, what am I doing? So I did another solo episode after that, I think, and then I did another interview and I still was kind of in that same thing where it was very regimented, but it went a little bit longer this time. And I said, okay, cool. And then I was like, What am I doing? Why? Why am I sitting here like putting these, these, these borders up, you know, that I can’t go past and I’m putting limitations on my show by doing this, by saying I have to ask these specific questions. So it’s definitely evolved a lot from then. Um, I mean, you’ve been on the show, you know how I do things. I like to keep.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:15] It very conversational the same way you’re doing it here. I love this right?

Speaker3: [00:43:18] Because that’s when you get people’s most authentic selves, right, is when you keep it conversational.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:25] Keep it.

Speaker3: [00:43:25] Light and fun. So I’ve definitely evolved my show from then to now.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:29] The only real set questions I have is like the very.

Speaker3: [00:43:32] First question where I ask, you know, about their background, and then at the end I do this thing.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:36] Called the Final Round, where I ask everybody the.

Speaker3: [00:43:38] Same four questions, but all in between.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:41] Is specifically about the topic we’re going to talk.

Speaker3: [00:43:44] About and whatever is comfortable for the guest, because I.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:47] Want to make sure that we’re putting the best.

Speaker3: [00:43:49] Possible content out there while making everybody comfortable and not cringe. Right, right, right. That’s that’s the whole thing. You know, when you can laugh and smile and have a good time while you’re doing an.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:43:59] Interview, it really helps.

Speaker3: [00:44:01] With the authenticity of the guest. And also for you as a host.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:06] You know, really get.

Speaker3: [00:44:06] Out there and ask, you know, some of the more.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:08] Important questions. And I the way I like to treat my.

Speaker3: [00:44:10] Show as well. And I think it’s really helped the growth. And it’s because my because it helps my listeners is every time I bring somebody on.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:18] I’m like, hey, talk to me like a fifth grader, right? As if I don’t know anything.

Speaker3: [00:44:22] You know? And if you’re going to put acronyms out there or anything.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:25] Like that, I will ask you what those acronyms stand for, even though I know that stands for Key Performance Indicator. Right.

Speaker3: [00:44:31] I’m still going to ask you to explain that, right?

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:33] Because for my listeners, this might be their first episode that they’ve ever listened to.

Speaker3: [00:44:38] I don’t want them to get turned off and be like.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:39] Yeah, this is a little.

Speaker3: [00:44:40] Too.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:41] Advanced for me. That’s why it’s called Average Joe finances, right?

Speaker3: [00:44:45] That’s who I’m appealing to, somebody that wants to get in there and break free. And that’s why my tagline is Beat debt, Build your wealth.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:44:53] And control your future.

Speaker3: [00:44:55] No doubt. Mic drop.

Phillip Hearn: [00:44:57] Yeah, No. And no pun intended with the mic drop either. I mean. No, no, I don’t want to drop. It’s very expensive. Don’t drop that. That’s a nice one. Don’t do that. But I totally do. Because, you know, when I was growing up, I did communication in college and I remember one of my favorite professors go The questions you start an interview with should not actually be the questions you get to in the sense of they shouldn’t be in this order. You mentioned guardrails was a perfect visual, right? They shouldn’t be in this exact order. They should kind of be a starter. And then wherever the interview goes, you’ve kind of gotten it to that particular point. And so I’ve been lucky enough to be on your show. I think I was on episode 162 if I was paying attention correctly.

Speaker3: [00:45:40] Yeah. Came out recently.

Phillip Hearn: [00:45:41] Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, had a great time, good energy, good good vibe about it. But no, it’s been it was fun to be a part of it. And I’ve gotten a chance now to go back and even listen to more episodes and you’ve come a long way, so congrats with the success on that for sure.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:45:57] Definitely appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Phillip Hearn: [00:45:59] Absolutely. So most important question that I like to ask before wrapping up any conversation like this. And again, thank you for your time. This is a ton of fun. How do our listeners connect with you? What types of clients do you want to be connected with? What does that all look like? How do people get to Mike? What does that? Look like from their end.

Speaker3: [00:46:19] Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for that. So the easiest.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:22] Way is my personal website, which is the Mike.

Speaker3: [00:46:25] Tv.com.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:27] Or Mike cavazzoni.com.

Speaker3: [00:46:28] If you can figure.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:29] Out how to spell my last name.

Speaker3: [00:46:31] And then of course, my my main website.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:33] Which started everything is average Joe finances.com you’ll.

Speaker3: [00:46:36] Be able to find the podcast and everything.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:38] There but you can also find it from my personal website.

Speaker3: [00:46:40] But you’ll see you know I also offer financial coaching.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:44] For people that are struggling. I’m actually starting to get a little bit away from that and I actually hired some.

Speaker3: [00:46:50] Coaches that now I have other.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:53] Coaches that take.

Speaker3: [00:46:53] On clients as well. So you don’t necessarily have to.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:46:56] Work directly with me. There’s other coaches on my team that you can work with as well.

Speaker3: [00:47:01] And they’re all fantastic people and they all share.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:47:03] The same vision as me, right?

Speaker3: [00:47:05] So that’s, that’s the biggest thing. And of course with real estate, I’m a licensed real estate agent in Hawaii. So if you need help with that, I’m definitely here. Or if you need to find somebody in any other market. I have a huge network of real estate agents and lenders and private money lenders and all that good stuff just.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:47:23] From what I’ve built with the podcast.

Speaker3: [00:47:25] So happy to help in any aspect. And if you’re thinking about starting a podcast yourself, I’d be happy.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:47:30] To talk to you about that and help you out with that as well.

Phillip Hearn: [00:47:33] Yeah, so you and I are going to definitely be staying in touch. So just we just created our real estate brokerage in Missouri, so we got some things very nice about even after the show too, so that’s perfect. Mike It has been an absolute pleasure. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I knew I would. I was I’ve been looking forward to this one. So this is this has been a ton of a ton of fun. So thanks for coming on.

Speaker3: [00:47:55] Again, thank you so much for having me.

Mike Cavaggioni: [00:47:57] The pleasure was.

Speaker3: [00:47:58] 100%. Well, maybe not 100%. 50 over 50. All mine as well. 5050. Yeah. I had a great time. This one. Aloha.

Phillip Hearn: [00:48:06] Yes. So thanks again to our guests, Mike Faggioni. A ton of fun. Really good insight for those listeners who are listening. A ton of great pearls in this information. You’ve just joined us and and finished up another episode of Doc’s discussions. I’m Dr. Philip Hearn and thanks for hanging out with us on Saint Louis Business RadioX Take care.