Jeremy Heilpern with Ammunition

Intro: Coming to you live from Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for another episode of Tech Talk with your host, Joey Kline.

Joey Kline: Welcome. We got a great Tech Talk to start off the week. We’re going to be talking with Jeremy Heilpern, the founder and CEO of Ammunition. Ammunition is a full service ad agency, and we’re going to get a really good, solid definition of exactly what that is for laypeople out there. But a big part of this conversation is going to be speaking about digital transformation in that industry. And so it really overlaps with our tech mission and focus a lot. So Jeremy, who we have here. Why don’t you kick it off and give us a little intro and just a headline of what ammunition is about before we dive deep?

Jeremy Heilpern: Sure. Yeah. Ammunition is a truly full service, fully integrated advertising agency that we founded back in 2017. What that ultimately means at the end of the day is from brand planning to media planning and buying to creative, even video production, technology development. All of that happens in our four walls here. I think for for a while, one of the things we saw as a trend was this kind of niching of agencies where brands were looking to work with specialists across each of the service offerings that they required. And I think what we’ve seen over the last 18 months in particular, and a lot of the indicators are showing as the go forward 2025 and beyond, is agencies that are built to truly act as a full service partner are what brands are looking for that kind of one throat to choke, if you will, around all things that they need to help support their business. And so we think we’ve built the agency in a way that is well equipped to do that and set up to be successful in that sort of an environment.

Joey Kline: Why do you think that is? And there can be I’m going to pontificate. And then I’d love your answer. Right. There can be a number of reasons for this. Sometimes it’s just, you know, easier to have one organization that does all of your work instead of spreading across. You know, one thing that I’m curious about is because things change so quickly in your industry. Frankly, it’s hard for me to think of another industry in which practitioners have to keep up with changes so quickly. So does that potentially mean if one organization focuses on a narrow piece of that, that they become obsolete? I’d love to get your opinion on it.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah. I mean, I think you’re touching on some some themes that are absolutely inevitably part of that. Right. I think some of the maybe macro trends we look at around this issue is, number one, one of pricing. I mean, I think the more agencies you have, the more redundant things you’re paying for. So if you’re working with 3 or 4 agencies, that means you got 3 or 4 account teams, right? And if I can put all of that in one place, can I reduce the amount of overhead in that scope of work, for example, and then put more, more money into the outcomes versus what it takes to generate those outcomes? Right. So I think I think cost efficiency is one of them. We’ve seen that a lot this year in particular. Agency consolidation is a is a big topic of discussion where brands clients are trying to consolidate into fewer agency partners. Number one, I think for price. Number two is I think really being a strategic partner who understands their business. You know, one of the things we kind of help our remind our team of is that even though the work we do is what we think about every single day, even for folks in marketing, that work the agency is doing may be a fraction of their day. Right? And we kind of get a, I think, this misguided perception that they’re thinking about it just as much as we are. And I think because of that, the fewer agencies I have to manage so I can do the things I need to do, I can kick one strategic partner off one time, and then they can think about my business from a 360 perspective. Um, is is helpful, uh, for, for those clients who, who have other things that they need to be thinking about and other things that need to be doing.

Joey Kline: Okay. So you touched on something here that I’m maybe selfishly going to discuss because I’m very interested in where you got this, because I think it’s it is such a focus that most service providers do not have the fact that you think about your clients 100% of the time, your clients think about your work. You do five, maybe 10% of the time at best, right? Um, that I think is extremely important for any service provider across any industry. I certainly find it helpful in real estate to remember that I got that from a book that, um, Jared Belsky wrote, the great, uh, he’s got his own agency now, but he used to be with 360. I’m curious if you read the same book or if this is just, you know, something that you you’ve kind of come to as well?

Jeremy Heilpern: Uh, I haven’t read the book, though. It sounds like maybe I should, because it sounds like I’d appreciate some of the themes there, but, um, no, I mean, I think it was just a realization one day, you know, I think, again, we we wake up thinking about them. We spend all day thinking about them. We go to bed maybe thinking about things that maybe could have gone better that day, or projects that maybe we we delivered late and we, you know, start thinking about how we could have done better or things we’re really excited about that. We can’t wait to present tomorrow. Yeah. And I think it’s in that constant like we’re following up with our clients. Did you see that report? Did you see the deck? Have you? Right. It’s kind of the constant chasing that I think agencies do. And I think there just needs to be this pragmatic understanding that we are part of their day, not all of their day.

Joey Kline: I think that a basic lessons of first date etiquette on playing it cool a little bit do would do us very well. Yeah.

Jeremy Heilpern: I mean, I think not to change the subject, but I think it’s tangential is the first date metaphor is a good one. I think agencies constantly want things to happen on the agency’s time, whether that’s new business, whether that’s scope approval, whether that’s project approval. And it’s really our job to align to our client’s timeline, not to align them to ours.

Joey Kline: Yeah. Okay. Let’s go backwards a little bit. I want I want to understand the person that we’re talking to and how this agency came to fruition. So, um, you developed your first agency at 14 years old?

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah. If we can call it an agency. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joey Kline: Okay, sure. I’m sure that there’s a pretty entertaining story about how a 14 year old develops an agency. I’d love to hear more about it.

Jeremy Heilpern: I don’t know what it is. I think, you know, I’ve never made a dollar in my life that wasn’t related to advertising in some way. And I think that goes back to when I was 14 years old. I think, candidly at the time as a way to make money. I’ve always had kind of an entrepreneurial spirit in me. Um, I could figure out how to at the time, I was figuring out how to build websites and pitch that on the internet. And so you’re kind of a faceless person interacting with a faceless person on, on online job boards, right? And so I think there was this natural ability to leverage that and, and to make some money. Um, and then from there, you know, I went to college at an early age. I graduated when I was, I guess, 18 turning 19. Um, and then did work for a number of agencies around Atlanta before settling into one for the better part of a decade. And then when I left that agency, I left it to start this one.

Joey Kline: So given given what we’ve established about your entrepreneurial nature, starting an agency at 14, how were you able to go and work for a company that you didn’t own for about a decade?

Jeremy Heilpern: I think about that a lot, and I joke with people today that I don’t know how I did it for so long, and I could never go back to doing that again. I think it was just a it was a good situation. And, you know, I felt like I could learn a lot from the founder of that company. I was surrounded by good people. And, you know, it was one of those things where I think I took that job in particular, thinking this would be short lived. I would learn something and I would inevitably go do my own thing. And I think just where that company was in its timeline, the founder was looking for an exit. And so, you know, it kind of felt like, well, maybe this would all line up, like maybe in some way I would then step in. Me and a couple people, whatever that might look like. And I would kind of, you know, for all intents and purposes, not inherit the company. Right, but kind of inherit that role. Yeah. And, you know, for for all the oddities of it, maybe the stars aligned in a really compelling way. In the end, that’s not quite how it ended up turning out for a number of reasons. But, you know, first and foremost, it kind of became this analysis for me was, if I’m as smart as I think I am, then I could go do my own thing, or the market would tell me very quickly that I wasn’t as smart as I think I am. And that would be a valuable lesson as well.

Joey Kline: Yeah. Okay. Well, that that that makes sense. Um, but okay, so we’ve we’ve talked about a number of structural reasons why it made sense for you to move on to your own thing, as well as your own intrinsic entrepreneurial spirit. There must have also been a part of you that said, well, there is something compelling behind my vision for an agency such that I can get market share right. You are certainly not the first person to establish a full service agency. So what was what was your thought about what was missing and what ammunition was going to provide that wasn’t out there?

Jeremy Heilpern: Um, simply, honestly, it’s focus. I think what a lot of agencies get wrong is they’re afraid to say no to anything. And in that, in that fear of saying no. And what they’re saying no to, to be clear, is, is something that could lead to revenue, right? And so I think they chase anything and everything, um, in order to ensure that they feel like they’re filling their coffers, they’re loading up the funnel, so to speak. Right. Like they’re they’re chasing new business. And I think agencies, by and large, fail to do what we encourage our clients to do when we lead them through branding exercises. I worked with a guy once upon a time who who said, and I’ll never forget it. I say it all the time as though I made it up. You don’t really have a brand position until it costs you something. And I think I think agencies say that maybe in not quite so succinct words to their clients, when we lead those brand planning, messaging assignments, those creative assignments, and we don’t apply it to ourselves. And so I’ve been I’ve been the kid in the bullpen on the receiving end of a creative brief and then realizing three months into a project like, I don’t understand this category, I don’t understand this brand, I don’t really I couldn’t really describe it to to my friends if I wanted to.

Jeremy Heilpern: Right. Um, and I think by and large, that is because agencies move from one RFP, so to speak, to the next. And I’ve worked in agencies where today it’s, you know, out of home and it’s billboards and tomorrow it’s no, we’re really good at building mobile apps. And the next day it’s like, no, we’re really good at at website development. And it’s always kind of shifting. Um, versus really having an honorable position in the marketplace where we say, here’s where we’re planting our flag. These are the categories we serve. Here’s why we think we have the right to win any piece of business that comes across our desk that fits a certain set of criteria. Uh, and, and really being focused on that and willing to say no to the things that don’t fit that criteria such that we have not only a position, but in many respects, some pricing power when we enter into those conversations. So it’s not a commoditized service where it’s a race to the bottom of procurement, driving who’s the cheapest vendor.

Joey Kline: So what would you define as your ownable position in the marketplace? Yeah.

Jeremy Heilpern: So it’s it’s evolved, to be honest with you, when we first started the agency, we were very focused. We were only pitching brands in the home and building product space. Uh, and it still represents a sizable portion of our portfolio during Covid as everyone got locked up at home. What happened? They bought bigger homes. They bought second homes. They expanded their homes. They, you know, they they remodeled their homes. And so for many of the brands we served in that environment, they did well. And so we did well. And we were on the right side of brands who wanted to buy market share when others were maybe a little bit uncertain. And so Covid was was an accelerant for our business. But for many people that we all probably know, I certainly have buddies who had agencies and hospitality or travel and tourism, and those agencies just don’t exist anymore. And so we had a healthy understanding that we needed to take a step back and say, were we really going to commit to being so beholden to any one category? Or was there DNA about this category we could use as criteria for other industries that we could also serve? The way we talk about that today is it tends to be hard working brands that navigate long term selling environments, more complex paths to purchase, and typically have multiple influencers in that decision making process.

Jeremy Heilpern: It could be B2B, it could be B2C. Um, but the the silly example I like to use is, um, within building materials. Right? Nobody ever went to Home Depot to buy a hammer and walked out with $60,000 in appliances. That’s just not a use case, right? And so for for the brands that we serve, they tend to be the more calculated, more considered long term purchase where we have to drive awareness for the brand, maybe even before you’re truly ready to process a transaction and still be top of mind as the brand of choice six, nine, maybe even 18 months from now when you’re actually ready to to transact. And along that journey, uh, kind of managing the expectations of each one of those influencers who might influence that purchase decision at the end of the day.

Joey Kline: That, that, that is that is an interesting way to segment the market, right? Because I feel like, you know, you can you can generally divide salespeople into a transaction sale and a consultative sale. And in most cases, if not all, the consultative sale is the one that requires more skill, more hand-holding, but higher dollar value, higher stickiness. And so from an advertising perspective, if you are serving those clients and you have you are fluent in the language of that type of sale, I could very easily understand how that is a competitive advantage, as opposed to I’m going to try and convince you to come to McDonald’s over Burger King, right? These are not just equal equal burgers here. There’s something much more strategic about the work that we’re doing.

Jeremy Heilpern: I think that’s right. I mean, I think for for us it tends to be again, I like the considered purchase phrasing. It tends to be very measurable at the end of the day too, you know, so we’re able to see very clearly the data that informs. Are we successful? Are we not successful? Can we hold ourselves accountable to the outcomes that we’ve been aligned with the client to achieve? If we did it, great. Let’s do more of the things that worked. If we if we missed, why did we miss? And can we come back with a really objective understanding based on the data as to why that is and how we apply those learnings to make the work better? Um, so, yeah, I mean, I think, I think that’s one of the things we like about it in particular as well, is just the data driven component of it’s really easy to put wins and losses on the board for the work that we do and be proud of, of the times where we where we over deliver and, and then hold ourselves accountable when we don’t.

Joey Kline: Yeah. No. Like I could see how from a, uh, this is beneficial for the client because it’s measurable. It’s also beneficial for the company, the agency because you’re able to, you know, not only use those sort of stats to sell future business, but also justify current business.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah, I tend to agree. Yeah.

Joey Kline: Okay, let’s let’s talk about evolving digital trends. Um, so I feel like if, if anyone, like anyone that interacts with the world today, should know that advertising comes at them from all different directions and all different mediums and all the free stuff that they get is because of advertising. Okay, but I do think that there is perhaps a somewhat anachronistic view when you think of just the word capital A advertising. Right? I think there is a segment of the population that simply equates that to a mad men version of the world, okay. Which obviously does not exist anymore. Um, as I said before, I have a hard time thinking of another industry in which you are. So, you know, trends can become obsolete so quickly. And so I’m curious, one, how you, as a founder, stay up to date on best practices and two, how you hire for talent that not only knows it now, but that you projecting forward you think is going to be able to do that and be accretive to your business and not, you know, be in stasis.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah. Let’s start with the second one. Maybe first. I think, um, the way that you you hire talented people is you have a compelling and employer value proposition, right? And I think largely that comes down to the sort of work environment that you’re willing to provide, where you’re asking people to work from and why they should be excited about that. How you comp them and align them to the same incentives the organization has. And then probably most important is if you want to have talented people who are going to be on the leading edge of trends, you need to be also offering them compelling work, because that’s what’s going to keep them excited, right? And so I think that that for us tends to be where we try to be focused in particular is of course, we want to pay our people well. Of course we want to treat them well, of course. Right. We’re and we’re going to get that right. And we’re going to get that wrong. And it’s going to sometimes be a matter of opinion, you know, from person to person if it’s a good fit. Right. Um, as with any job, you don’t like it. You go find another one, right? Um, I think I think the work, especially in this business, is so much more the focus almost than, um, not more the focus. That’s the wrong way of thinking about it. But it’s so important that the right work is there that I’m being asked to solve compelling problems, that if the world is talking about.

Jeremy Heilpern: I work at an agency that’s thinking about AI, that’s involved in those things, that’s thinking about those things. So I think, I think first and foremost is, is thinking about the work you’re doing, and is it going to attract the same sorts of people that, let’s say a Google or a Microsoft or a meta who I could look out my window and pretty much see, you know, Atlanta headquarters for each one of those companies and for the roles that we hire, whether it’s in our product design or technology development teams in particular, like they have job postings up for those same roles that I have. Right. And so why do I want to work at an advertising agency versus a technology company? And I think that comes down to the environment, number one and the work number two. Um, on the first, on the first question around how I stay, uh, aware of the trends is, I mean, number one, I read a ton. Um, you know, I’m involved in as much content, uh, as I can, whether that’s podcasts, whether that’s books, whether that’s, you know, you know, industry trade rags or technology. Uh, publications, whatever that happens to be. I think also just being in the work is important. You know, I’ve been very mindful that I never want to be the guy who people are laughing at because he doesn’t know how to, you know, you know, make a presentation or jump into nowadays Figma.

Jeremy Heilpern: Maybe back then when I was thinking about it, it was the photoshops of the world. Um, but really just being in the work, being connected to it. That’s not to say that I’m designing anything these days, or I’m writing any code, and it’s probably better that I don’t, frankly. Um, but, you know, I came up doing the work, and I like to at least be attached to the work, reviewing the work, discussing the work. Um, and then, you know, when we do things like we we started an AI committee internally to be kind of a think tank about how we, uh, are using it, how we are thinking about it ethically, how we are leading our clients around how to think about it. You know, I joined those things. I want to be involved, but I don’t want to be the person in charge. I want to be a participant in those meetings and have somebody else be the person in charge of those discussions, because I don’t want to lead the witness or have people feel like, you know, it’s going to be some preconceived outcome. I want to I want to be a participant and let the folks around me lead on those things.

Joey Kline: I would imagine you’re at the look. There’s a point in every business at the beginning where the founder is the company, the founder is the chief salesperson, the founder is the chief delivery mechanism. Um, the best companies are not dependent, are not a cult of personality. They are not dependent on a founder. Right. And obviously, while that is not to denigrate any of the things that you do for the company, but obviously you want to elevate other people to be able to do that selflessly, but also selfishly, I imagine.

Jeremy Heilpern: Uh, yes. Yeah. I think agencies in particular, I don’t know that they have they can go so far as claiming kind of the cult of the founder or that much personality. But I do think what agencies, you can look at many of them and see that the guy who founded it or serves as the CEO, um, is so in the business that he, he’s effectively a group account director more than he’s a CEO. Right. Yeah. And I think that from the very earliest days of ammunition was something I was very mindful of. I’ve worked for those guys and that’s not to be critical, but I think it is an awareness that if you want it to be a lifestyle business, then that’s probably a way you could run it. If you want to build a real business that maybe has future value for somebody to acquire as an example, right. Then you got to think about it differently, and you’ve got to build a team that truly is able to operate with or without you.

Joey Kline: Yeah. All right. You brought a couple of things that I think are good topics to discuss. So it’s interesting you talk about competing with technology companies for talent because typically when I hear this on that show, it is other technology companies that are discussing, you know, exorbitant pay scale and how it’s just it’s a it’s a bloodbath out there. I have I don’t think I’ve ever we’ve had a couple agencies on this show. I don’t think that I’ve talked to another one that is directly looking at talent going towards, you know, the Fang companies as competition. So how I guess, how do you compete for it. Is it dollars? Is it lifestyle? Is it type of work? I’m just that’s the first time that I’ve heard it from anyone. So I’m curious how you think about that.

Jeremy Heilpern: I mean, yeah, it’s all three, right? Like, I mean, of course we’ve got to be compelling on comp, but I’m not Google. I can’t issue a bunch of stock options. Right? Like there’s just going to be natural things where I’m at a disadvantage. I think the work is a component. I think agency lifestyle is a component. It’s not for everybody, but I think for people who like it, they really like it. I think being involved in the work, the way that we are is different where we are. We are directly working with the clients every single day. Where I might imagine in a in a technology environment, I’m, I’m fairly far away from the end consumer. Right. I think that creates opportunities. I think the energy of an agency can be also very compelling. You know, coming to the office and there’s a video shoot taking place and the editing suites are fired up and there’s just that fun kind of commotion happening. I do think agencies have an energy that I think is infectious, and I think people who who like that work. Who? They like to be involved in that stuff. And I think it’s very much it’s a, it’s a 360 business where I’m not being brought in to a machine that’s already kind of working with or without me. I’m just being plugged in. And then if I walk away, they plug somebody else in, right. Um, you really have the ability to inform everything we do, regardless of what role you have here, right? Um, if you’re a technologist, you may see creative on the wall and go and meet with the creative director who came up with that and have a conversation about it, or vice versa. Right. So I do think it’s a different environment. You know, I think I think for us, we have a healthy understanding that we’re going to hire those people away at times, and we’re going to lose good people to those companies. Um, that’s just part of it.

Joey Kline: But you know what the it’s so interesting how those companies have evolved, right? I think that for some portion of the public, we still think of these companies as these really dynamic, early stage, cutting edge companies. Yeah, these are big business. These are massive bureaucracies that are kind of slow Sometimes, um, and you get really siloed. And I feel like the type of person that is going to be comfortable in that environment, in a very narrow portion of that business, probably not the person that is going to be able to deal with the, um, maybe not jack of all trades nature of a of a, you know, earlier company, but just the more dynamic nature of a company like yours.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah. It’s interesting you say that, um, we hired somebody very recently, uh, a very senior person. Uh, they weren’t at a technology company, to be clear, but they were at a brand you would know here in Atlanta. It’s very well known. Um, and I was meeting with them. I’m kind of the final person in an interview process. Mostly just a culture and vibe. Check. I want to know the people who work here. Right. But other people are deciding if they’re the right fit for the role. Um, and I was I was talking to this gentleman, and I was like, why? Why ammunition? Um, and he, he said a couple of things that I think reinforce what you’re saying. Number one, interestingly, for maybe your audience was, uh, that we were in office. So we are in office three days a week, and then the other two days of the week are optional. You can work where you want to work. But he talked about in this very corporate environment, because of how vast the organization is and how many teams across the country there are, they have these very flimsy hybrid work policies that would see him show up to work and be the only person on his team in the office on his required in office days.

Jeremy Heilpern: And he’s still, you know, dialing into a zoom meeting to talk to the person, which he could have done from home. And he missed the days of being able to sit around, you know, a talk things out with coworkers, have that kind of dynamic. He actually posted in our group kind of shout out praise Slack channel his first day here, a note being grateful for having a desk to set up his action figures at. Right like it was. It was just this interesting thing from somebody who’s had it both ways and has a 15, 20 year career, and that was his kind of perspective on those things. I think the other thing you touched on, which he also said was the ability to just walk in my office and have a conversation that may have an impact on the company is obviously at a big publicly traded company. Not an option. Right? Yeah. And so I think those two things are are valuable. And I think I think they speak to obviously our industry but obviously different size organizations as well.

Joey Kline: I mean that’s that’s compelling feedback. Um, it makes sense. You know, look, obviously this is not a real estate podcast, but of course, some of the times we talk about culture relates to workplace. Look, I think two things can be true at the same time, right? I’ve always thought that it was a even before I, you know, did what I do. I’ve always thought it was silly that someone had to be at a desk for however many days they’re, you know, working five days a week. Right? Like, if you if you really need to keep track of someone that closely, you probably, uh, need to check your management skills. Or maybe you don’t have the right people. Okay. So I think that freedom is a good thing. But I also think that we get lonely and we thrive off of human connection. And, um, it’s. I think this is why you are starting to see some of the larger companies. Amazon is of course the most recent example, right? It how do you have if you give each different manager, um, a different policy as it relates to their own hybrid schedules. It is a recipe for someone to come in and just be in a sea of cubes where they’re the only one there. Um, and I think that it has been much easier for the smaller companies where there is a real, um, there’s a tangible sense of camaraderie just to kind of get back to it and be around each other a little bit easier and simpler.

Jeremy Heilpern: Listen, I agree and stop me if I turn this into a real estate podcast because I get fairly I’ve thought about this issue a lot, and I think just a couple of things that maybe are worth sharing. Number one, I would say most of the people who’ve joined our team in the last 18 months, in particular, have left fully remote jobs with the desire to get back in office. And I think the interesting thing you don’t see in your LinkedIn feed being announced every day. Um, number two is we talk about this a lot as an agency leadership team. Anybody with any kind of career behind them at all can think about somebody who had a outsized impact on their career. A coworker who took them under their wing served as a mentor. Anybody who started a business or left a job or whatever that is, has built a network that then they could call on as leverage to do the next thing. The best way to do that is proximity to other people, right? I just I was just in Houston with a client last week. It was a sensitive conversations. We could have done it behind a Google meet, but I just felt like, you know, the best way to do this proximity. Sitting in a room face to face, having, having, having those conversations. And I think especially people who maybe graduated during Covid or post Covid don’t understand the value of those relationships. Can you can you be successful without it? Maybe. But I think for senior people, being able to serve as a mentor, that’s a valuable thing for junior people to develop relationships with senior people. That’s a valuable thing. And that’s that’s how we try to encourage it within our four walls.

Joey Kline: I think you can get a job without it. I think you can have a career without it.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah. That’s right.

Joey Kline: Yeah, that’s that’s the difference. Oh, look, I’m, I, um, the the two bosses who, you know, ran the 25 person company that I started at. I still see them every time I go to DC. I met my wife in the office, and, you know, it’s just like it’s. Yeah, I think we’re we’re we’re simpatico on this level. Okay. So to to get back to your company and away from real estate, uh, there was another thing that you that you mentioned that, uh, I everyone talks about I. Yeah. Okay. Um, it’s on earnings calls. It’s a buzzword everywhere. Um, I think that the majority of companies that discuss this on investor calls, frankly, have no idea what they’re doing about it. Um. Um, I imagine that is likely not the case with your organization that you actually understand this and what it can be and what it cannot be. Expand upon what you think AI is going to do for your industry and where you’re interested in utilizing it.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, within the creative space, I think there’s another layer that I would add to what you’re, you’re articulating, which is you also deal with this dynamic of maybe tech forward evangelists who are hungry to integrate it because they are tech forward people. Right. And then you have, let’s call them, uh, creative romantics who see it as a denigration of their craft, something that is going to, uh, um, make it worse. Right? It’s going it’s going to devalue what it is they bring to the world. And so I think we we navigate this not only through the lens I think everybody else does. What are the ethical things? How do you think about this? How do we make sure we’re not left behind all those sorts of considerations. We have the tech forward group that goes back into your your trend spotting and talent retention thing that we talked about a moment ago, where we want the leading edge, where people feel like this is an organization where I’m going to get experience in this area. I don’t have to leave to go somewhere else to do that. And then also navigating the creative romantics who actually don’t want us to touch it at all. Um, and so I think to the latter, you know, one of the things that I would say about AI, it answers your question, but I think it also addresses that particular unique perspective, which is we look at it as something that if you’re thinking through the lens of, let’s call it like a video director, for example, let’s think about the last time you had an incredible concept and you pitched it to the client and they loved it.

Jeremy Heilpern: And then as we started mapping that out and casting and finding locations, suddenly budget became an issue and we started having to cut away from your vision in order to deliver whether that was on timeline, whether that was on budget or whatever that happens to be. My question to the team, especially within our AI committee, is how can we look at AI as something that helps essentially give us more time and budget? Where do those opportunities come up? Not that I’m replacing my directors and my creatives with AI, but it’s a tool that makes them better at their job, right? It’s like. It’s like, you know, getting a typewriter didn’t make anybody a great author, right? Like, I don’t think AI is going to be something that suddenly makes anybody or replaces them or any of those sorts of things that people worry about. What I do think is it is a tool that helps us all be a little bit smarter, do a little bit better at our job. And those who embrace it as part of their tool set are going to be the ones who come out ahead. Those who do not find the right ways to embrace it are inevitably going to be the group that gets replaced by it.

Joey Kline: Yeah, I mean that that sounds about right. I mean, are there any particular business lines or functions that you have found that current versions of AI work well for right now?

Jeremy Heilpern: I think our technology team uses it a lot from a web and software development standpoint, kind of a, um, like a co-parent type of situation. You know, it’s not doing the work for them, but it maybe is something that they can talk through problems with, kind of doing some of the initial scaffolding, some of the repetitive stuff that they have to do on a day in and day out basis. It’s been able to be an accelerant there. I do think from a creative standpoint, and we’re very transparent with our clients when we’re using it. You know, the days of, you know, come, come to us with three creative directions. We’re going to have to kill two, but you’re going to spend a month working on it. Uh, you know, we’ve gotten very quickly, let’s not obsess in Photoshop over getting it. Exactly. Pixel perfect. Let’s use AI to create those graphics we share with the client. This is for demonstration purposes only. We’re just trying to help articulate an idea visually. Once you select a concept you want to go with, then we’ll go back to the drawing board and kind of create those things from scratch, if you will, but use it just to get to know faster in that situation. Yeah. Is is one of the ways it’s been incredible for us and then and then and all the obvious objective ways. Right. Like it’s great from our media standpoint on the data, uh, standpoint, being able to analyze data much more quickly and come up with insights much faster. Um, so I would say it’s an accelerant in those parts of the business as well.

Joey Kline: Okay. That makes sense. Um, you mentioned something before, and this is probably my my last question for you, unless there are other topics that you want to expound upon. But you you know, you mentioned about how your roster of clientele was good to you throughout Covid based upon the, you know, nature of their business. There were industries that just didn’t have the same opportunities based upon who they were working for. We also talked about, oh, industries that, you know, are not full service, that are maybe a little bit more siloed, and that might not be in favor. That leads to are you in acquisition mode? Are there acquisition targets of some of these businesses that have, you know, good, good foundations but need a little bit more of a push?

Jeremy Heilpern: Yes, I think, um, you know, last summer we acquired probably Atlanta’s premier video production Studios, an award winning shop. Emmy Award winning shop, I should say. Um, and we, we integrated that into our business. It was a it was a service line we didn’t previously offer, and we thought if we could bring that kind of deep vertical capability that’s been in this market, they had been around for about eight years. We had done a bunch of business with them ourselves, and we said, if we could bring that in-house and then maybe cross-pollinate our full service agency offering to their very niche offering, historically, it feels like that could be a very compelling way for us to turn that into an ROI positive thing very quickly and candidly. We were able to do that and pay for that acquisition within the first year of doing it. That’s great. We are interested in more opportunities like that. I wouldn’t say that there’s a mandate here to just go buy stuff, but where we think it’s a it’s a good business that’s additive to what it is that we’re doing. And probably my bias, if I were articulating it today would be the same playbook, a niche firm that we could plug in to make us even more vertically adept in some area of our business, but then cross pollinate agency offerings. We would look at that for sure.

Joey Kline: Sure. It’s not. Your business strategy is not necessarily inorganic growth, but when it makes sense and it aligns with the culture. You know, let’s let’s pursue it.

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah, 100%.

Joey Kline: Yeah. Okay. Um, this has been great. I mean, it’s, uh, you have an interesting background. You have an interesting story. It sounds like you guys are doing great work. If anyone listening to this wants to learn a little more about ammunition, how do they get in touch with you or whoever they should talk to about talking to the company about working together?

Jeremy Heilpern: Yeah, you can see our work. Some case studies at ammunition Dot agency. That’s obviously our website. And then there’s a contact form on the contact page where if you want to get in touch because you’re, you’re looking for a gig or you’re looking for an agency, there’s forms to do that. We’re always we’re always looking to talk to exciting people who want to make change happen.

Joey Kline: All right. Ammunition Dot agency. Jeremy, thanks a lot for coming on and sharing your story.

Jeremy Heilpern: Thank you very much.