Workplace MVP: Sally Spencer-Thomas and Dr. Jodi Frey

Intro: [00:00:05] Broadcasting from the Business RadioX Studios, it’s time for Workplace MVP. Workplace MVP is brought to you by R3 Continuum, a global leader in workplace behavioral health and security solutions. Now, here’s your host, Jamie Gassmann.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:00:27] Hi, everyone. Your host, Jamie Gassmann, here, and welcome to this episode of Workplace MVP.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:00:33] Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the United States according to the National Institute of Mental Health. In 2019 alone, there were an estimated 3.5 million people who plan to suicide, 1.4 million who attempted suicide, and 47,511 who died by suicide, which averages out to approximately 130 suicides per day. The societal cost associated with suicide and suicide attempts are estimated at 93.5 billion dollars, which includes lifetime medical fees and the cost of lost work. But what you can’t put a price tag on is the emotional cost of grief, loss, guilt, and confusion that the families, friends, coworkers, and others will have in the aftermath of a loved one completing suicide.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:01:26] As business leaders, our employees are spending a good majority of their day at work. Work has become for some a home away from home and their coworkers become a work family. With that much time spent in the work environment, are there ways we can proactively look to help those that may be struggling or contemplating suicide? As a leader, are there programs or conversations that can be had to create an environment an employee would be comfortable discussing the struggles they’re having? And ultimately, is there more that can be done to help reduce the number of individuals who feel completing suicide is their only option out?

Jamie Gassmann: [00:02:05] Well, joining us today to share how business leaders can create a comprehensive approach to suicide prevention within their work environments is Workplace MVP’s Dr. Sally Spencer-Thomas, President of United Suicide Survivors International, and Dr. Jody Frey, Professor at University of Maryland, School of Social Work. Welcome to the show, Sally and Jody.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:02:27] Yeah, thanks so much, Jamie. We’re really grateful to be here.

Jody Frey: [00:02:30] Yeah. Thank you.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:02:32] So, let’s start out with our first workplace MVP, Dr. Sally Spencer-Thomas, President of United Suicide Survivors International. So Sally, you personally have experienced the loss of a loved one to suicide. Can you share with us your story?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:02:47] Sure. So, I’m a psychologist by training and I have been in the field of mental health approximately 16 years when my brother died by suicide on December 7th, 2004. And a lot of people have these before and after moments in their life where they say, like, this was my life before this happened and then this is my life afterwards. It’s something completely different. And, his death had that impact on me. We were incredibly close, and he happened to live with bipolar condition, which he managed very well throughout his young adult life. But for whatever reason, the summer of 2004, he had a full-blown episode of mania that totally destroyed everything that he held dear, his family, his work life, everything. And ultimately, it proved to be fatal.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:03:36] So in the aftermath of his death, we were, our family, his friends, we were all in such shock and grief, and I learned things in those months that followed that no one ever taught me in graduate school. And, again, this was a while ago. But you know, no one ever told me that the majority of people who died by suicide were working-aged men. The majority of them had one attempt and it was fatal. And, the majority of them also never stepped foot in any kind of mental health resource.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:04:05] So, that seemed like a pretty important gap to fill, and that’s gotten me on the trajectory to meet amazing people like Jody Frey and many others who are doing incredible work in this space to try to really empower workplaces to make this, make suicide prevention and mental health promotion a health and safety priority in their community and in their workplace.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:04:28] Yeah, yeah. This had to have been just a really hard experience to have gone through. And you’ve used that, you know, as you kind of mentioned, to help to inform and educate businesses and others about suicide and then the mental health aspect that, you know, with your brother and not getting support for it and, maybe he was getting support, but other men that maybe aren’t getting support for that so that other families don’t have to go through that again. Can you talk through about the work that you’ve done in spreading education and understanding around suicide prevention? Because I know you’re a well-known public speaker and you’re involved in a lot of various different organizations and foundations. Can you talk a little bit about some of that work?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:05:08] Yeah. So, that was also like a really hard part of the journey because we got this clarity in 2005, 2006, it’s the workplace. Workplace is the most cross-cutting system we have. Everybody died by suicide or attempted was working or they were just working or they had an immediate family member who’s working, and the workplace doesn’t know what they don’t know and they’re not doing anything.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:05:28] So, myself and another psychologist, Rick Ginsberg, we set out to make or do something in this space. And so, we created a program called Working Minds. And we were, like, when we finished it, it was a training and a strategy, and we were like, “Ta-dah!” We’re like, “Here we go. We’re going to save a bunch of lives. It’s going to be amazing,” and lead balloon. Like, no one, I say no one cared. It felt like no one cared. Because we were so passionate, we would be like, you know, knocking on all these employers’ doors like, “Hey, how about some suicide prevention in the workplace?” And they’d be like, “Oh, suicide? Mm-hmm. That’s a medical issue, right? People need to take that stuff up with their doctors. That’s nothing we can touch here. It’s like way beyond our thing. It’s not our lane.” Blah blah blah blah. And I’m like, “Yeah, but they’re not. They’re not reaching out to their doctors and they’re here. I promise you, they’re here. So, wouldn’t that be an important thing to tackle head-on?” No. We really had a hard time getting any traction in the early days.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:06:24] But then things started to change because when – people never think it’s going to happen to him until it happens to them. When there’s a suicide death in a workplace community, people a lot of times have this oh my gosh moment, where why didn’t we see this coming? You know, people are in turmoil. It’s a crisis. And, you know, the really caring leaders say what could we have done differently? And so, we started to see people reaching out, you know, many years later, where they had had a high profile death that had really impacted their community. And, they said we don’t want this to ever happen again. How do we get in front of this? And that was the game-changer where some larger companies, some larger professional associations, larger unions started to reach out and say help us.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:07:11] We have a story that I always like to share of this construction company whose COO and I were part of leadership Denver together. You’re part of these leadership groups. You go up for coffee. So, we were out for coffee one day. And, you know, he says, “You know, Sally, when you talk about who’s at risk for suicide, you’re talking about my folks.” And I said, “I know,” and he said, “Well, let’s do it. Give me all the tools.” And we’re about three months in, and he’s like the only one that we know of in the United States, anyway, that’s really kind of taking this at a deep level. And he comes back in three months and he says, “I had no idea. I had no idea how much my people were suffering. I had no idea how worried they were about their kids and their parents. I had no idea that our employee assistance program was so broken that people can’t access it and it doesn’t really work for them.” Like, this has got to go national.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:07:57] And so, it was around that coffee meeting that kind of spun the whole things out. His foundation underwrote the development of a construction industry blueprint for suicide prevention. We got another partner involved and they got into all the trade publications. All of a sudden it was a conversation that the construction industry was having because of just a couple of people’s passion and influence.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:08:20] And, today, you know, hundreds, hundreds of companies are really doing strategic work, you know, largely based on some of the strategy things that Jody and myself and our committee have been evolving over the last decade so that it’s gone from just a conversation to like a full strategy implementation, which is really exciting.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:08:41] Yeah. That sounds really great work. I mean, that’s, you know, you’re helping people. And especially I know in the construction industry, I’ve heard, is one of the higher known industries for having more common, you know, incidents of suicide that I’ve heard in some of the work that we’ve done at R3 Continuum.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:09:04] Quick question because, you know, it’s interesting. You say about the EAP system being broken and that’s how your contact in that construction industry felt. You know, I heard from someone in a different industry where they said when people are stressed out or burned out, they don’t reach out. Is that common from what you’ve seen in some of these others where, you know, they may have that resource but they may be just too fatigued or just, you know, too kind of worn down or whatever they might be feeling, where they just don’t have that energy to make that call? Have you seen that in any of the work that you’ve done?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:09:42] Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah. You think to any of our most overwhelmed days. Like, all we want to do is stay under the covers and not tackle this day head-on. And so, yeah, it certainly makes sense when people are shut down, whether it’s burnout or depression or, you know, the consequences of addiction. Like, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why it feels like the 500-pound phone is what we call it, like to make that call seems so hard. And I think, you know, especially in companies where mental health well-being, whatever you want to call it, was never part of the mission or vision or game plan. There’s just not a readiness or an awareness of how anything works. It’s just like this foreign thing.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:10:24] And so even when, you know, company executives have an employee assistance program, they’ve kind of just checked the box. They don’t know what it entails. They don’t really know if anybody’s using it. They don’t know if it’s any good. They’re just like, “Well, I provided the benefit for my employees, but what do you want?” And I’m like, “Oh, a heck of a lot more.” Because especially in those areas, there’s just a million barriers that people have. Energy being one, the complication of a system that’s kind of hard to navigate even when you’re well. I mean, I try to access employee assistance work frequently and sometimes it’s, you know, three calls and then they call you back and it’s hard. You know, you have to have a certain level of energy and awareness to kind of get yourself through it.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:11:06] And then, you know, when we have a top-tier program, there’s all kinds of support that can happen. But a lot of times people went to the lowest bidder, and so then they’re not getting quality service. And that’s very demoralizing for people. And then, the word gets out. Like, don’t even bother. It’s going to be too hard and then it’s not going to work out.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:11:23] So, the EAP part of the overall strategy is one very important part that we like employers to understand because if the whole message is going to be a bridge to resources, you better be confident that those resources are going to support people in the way that they deserve. And you better know them more than just a 1800 number or a website. Like, call them, get to know how they work, and so forth. So, we do what we call a mental health resource audit with our partners to do a deep dive so that they can create a what to expect sheet for their workers and it’s a little easier road to travel down.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:12:03] Yeah, very – that’s great. And, you know, in looking at like, obviously, over the last couple of years and I know a lot of my episodes have brought this up, but the pandemic is still there and we’re still navigating it and, you know, the various challenges and complexities that have come from that. And, I know from looking at the different, you know, metrics that have been put out either by the CDC or some of the other groups that, you know, it’s had a huge impact on the mental health of our country. I mean, I think we all have felt it in some way. In your opinion, for workplaces, how has this impacted suicide and what do they need to be looking for and watching for, particularly in their employees and particularly employers that might tell people who are working remote and they don’t have as much of a connection point with them?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:12:49] So, you hit it head on the fact that none of us on the entire planet escaped the emotional impact of the pandemic. You know, it was in one way or another impacting our well-being and for some people very intensely and for many people very long haul. The question about how it impacted suicide is a complex one. So when people started to predict that suicide rates would skyrocket, you know, very early on, you know, lots of anxiety, lots of disruption, you know, as we all experienced, people anticipated, “Oh, my gosh. The suicide rates are going to go through the roof.” And those of us in public health around suicide were like, “Hold on.” Just, like, wait and follow the data because human behavior surprises us a lot of times. And in large-scale disasters after 911, for example, historically around wartime, suicide rates actually dropped, which is surprising to the general public but not surprising to those of us in this work.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:13:46] Because one of the things that happen in large-scale disasters, and you can probably remember this between like mid-March and mid-May, is that we tend to pull together. In our anxiety, we pull together and we just lean on each other. And so, if you remember back to those times, at least here in Colorado, we were like leaning our heads out the window at 8 p.m. at night, howling in support of all the essential workers. People were making masks and delivering food. Like, you had this sense of like, we’re scared, we’re overwhelmed many of us, and yet we’re going to pull together the best we can to live through this.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:14:22] But then, what often happens again in large-scale disasters is there’s this tipping point where we’re past the honeymoon phase of her heroism and pulling together, and we’re exhausted and we are at each other. And you can remember, right, end of May, George Floyd’s murder was nothing but a freefall of discontent and conflict and so on that is still going on today, but really hard in those next several months, I would say, until, you know, the news of the vaccine started coming out. And then, we thought, there’s something hopeful here. But, you know, still up and down throughout the way.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:14:58] So, isolation has been part of it and certainly, the divisiveness around all of the regulations has been a big part of people’s well-being. Suicide rates actually went down in 2020, which is surprising to people, but it’s not a clear-cut story. It went down about 3% as far as we can, you know, tell. There’s a lot of gray area in suicide data. That dip in suicide rates was largely offset by an increase in overdose and an increase in accidental death, which gray areas as far as many of us are concerned. So, there’s all of that to take in.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:15:37] But the interesting part about suicide, in addition to it being offset by accidental death and overdose, is it didn’t go down for everybody. It largely went down for the highest risk group, which are mostly white men in the middle ages, but it did not go down for people of color. And again, if you can think about some of the particular things that were happening in 2020, a lot of communities of color were very, very much suffering. So, the story of the pandemic remains to be told.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:16:04] The other piece that I’ll point out is that, you know, having this massive, massive long-term disruption to most all of our lives gave people pause to reflect on what’s important to them. And so, that’s where you have, you know, the mass resignation. Like, people are upending their lives because they realize life is short. And my family, my sense of, you know, going in and looking at the world or doing this important thing impact that I’ve always – like, I got to do it now because I might not have tomorrow.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:16:34] And that’s not a bad thing, you know, for people to have that shakeup in their priorities. And I know for me, before the pandemic, I was on a plane two, three times a week, waking up in hotels. I didn’t know where I was. My family was having all these experiences without me. I felt very disconnected. The pandemic has let me be home and reconnect, and it’s been much better for my mental health. So, it didn’t – it wasn’t, while stressful for many, wasn’t necessarily something that was increasing risk for suicide per se.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:17:05] Yeah. Interesting. And looking out, you know, obviously, we shared that some of the ways, you know, if anybody is struggling with it, that there’s the 500-pound phone that you talked about. You know, they’re too tired to pick that phone up. Are there other reasons that, let’s say, somebody has something that’s been, you know, they’ve been dealing with through the pandemic or other things that they’re navigating and they’re really struggling internally? What are some of the other barriers that prevent them from getting some of the support and help that they do have accessible to them?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:17:41] Yeah. There’s so many. I mean, a lot of people have been conditioned from birth to be problem solvers, to be the ones that people lean on. They don’t lean on other people or maybe they don’t want to take a resource away from someone they feel like might have a bigger problem than them. There’s all kinds of bias, too, and fears that are based in reality. Discrimination and prejudice is a real thing. And, people don’t always feel that their workplace is psychologically safe to disclose. They are concerned about the confidentiality. They are often rightly worried that their company will use this information against them and prevent them from getting promotions, getting certain types of security clearances, all these other things that are super important to their career, to their identity.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:18:29] So, we have lots of cultural issues that are the bigger part of the iceberg underneath the systemic challenges of just trying to navigate resources that are probably even more powerful than, you know, I don’t know what number to call, is the fact that if I start this, maybe I lose all control over everything that’s important to me here and then I can’t get it back. And those are real fears.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:18:56] So, again, working around shifting culture in an organization is an essential part of this. We have got to establish psychological safety so that people do feel like if they disclose something vulnerable about themselves that their organization is going to have their back, their organization is going to come forward with support. Because the truth of the matter is nobody gets out of this life without being brought to your knees by something. And, we all want to know that when that happens to us that somebody is going to be there for us.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:19:27] And if the culture is no, then people are going to leave. They’re going to shut down, and that just doesn’t impact the well-being of the workforce. We know from data from Gallup, it also impacts errors, job site safety, turnover. Like, it has major cost impact on an organization. So, if you’re not going to do it because it’s the right thing to do, do it because it’s the right business thing to do as well. Shifting culture is really an important piece, and it really often starts with the leadership being able to talk about this in a matter-of-fact way and share some of their stories of things that they’ve gone through and how they’ve been helped.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:20:05] Oh, that’s really great advice, and I know we’re going to dive into that a little bit deeper a little bit later in the episode. So, quick question, in terms of – you do a lot of educating, speaking, and programming around suicide prevention. Is there something within the work that you’ve done that you are absolutely most proud of that has really just continued to resonate with you that what you’re doing is working and you’re getting the results that you’re looking for?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:20:34] Well, I think, you know, when our committee established the national guidelines for workplace suicide prevention after like over a decade of trying to figure out what to do, that was a very pivotal moment I think for all of us because it was a call to action nationally and just watching again the construction industry move through the movement of this. At first, nobody knows it’s an issue or it’s not my problem, right? So then, first we got to get the awareness out there. Yes, this is an issue. And, yes, it is your problem. It’s everybody’s problem, right?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:21:08] Then, we move to how do I help a person? Like, I have a person in my heart that I’m worried about or I’m worried about myself. So then we moved into that space and we saw a lot of programs coming up or, you know, resources, that kind of thing. And now, because of the national guidelines and because a lot of companies and other professional associations and organizations have set a precedent, people are moving to strategy, and strategy is really where the things are going to shift for good in a positive way. So, the national guidelines help with that, having large reputable companies say we get it, we can’t just do a one-off training or one-off awareness day and call it good. We’ve got to figure out how this is embedded in our entire health and safety culture. So, it’s just part of the fabric of what we do around here.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:21:52] Having those stories to tell now, one of the things that I’m super excited about for the upcoming months is we’re having a summit in Colorado, where all of the early adopters in the construction space who’ve been working and trying things on and measuring impact, they’re all going to come together and they’re going to learn from each other. Like, here’s what’s working, here’s what’s not working, here’s what we need for the next three to five years. That’s where change becomes sticky, and that’s where we’re at, which is very, very exciting.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:22:20] Wonderful. Great. So, we’re going to shift over to our next workplace MVP for today’s episode, Dr. Jody Frey, Professor at University of Maryland, School of Social Work. Welcome, Jody.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:22:33] Thank you, Jamie. Thanks for having me.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:22:35] Yeah. Absolutely. So, share with us your career journey and kind of your path that got you into kind of moving into working in the suicide prevention area.

Jody Frey: [00:22:45] Sure. And, it’s always just such a pleasure to hear Sally and her story. It’s just such an amazing professional in this space. Honored to be here with her. So, my journey is a little bit different. I entered the field as a clinical social worker, and to be honest, I had very little formal training in suicide assessment and response in my MSW program, which has gotten better over time. As Sally mentioned, both of us in our counseling programs weren’t, I would say, fully prepared. And, that’s probably being generous.

Jody Frey: [00:23:24] I really learned more of the work about suicide prevention, asking questions, providing support, access to resources in my fieldwork and ultimately in some of my first jobs. And I always thought, you know, this is not necessarily the way that we should be preparing folks. And, when we talk about the workplace and thinking about how to prepare leaders and coworkers to talk to employees that they’re concerned about, we can’t just let people go out there and expect that they know the right things to say and the right things to ask. And the lack of knowledge, I think actually is one of the biggest problems in our field because we don’t know so we don’t ask and we stay silent.

Jody Frey: [00:24:11] And so, when I started working in employee assistance, in the workplace, you know, similar to the trends that Sally was seeing in construction, I was in federal government, so, again, with an aging population, a lot of increased risk, suicide attempts, and deaths among working-aged men. And, we didn’t have anything about suicide in our workplace. Violence policy, we weren’t addressing this in our safety initiatives.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:24:40] And in fact, when I tried to bring this up to senior leadership in workplaces that I was engaged with as an EAP clinical social worker was very quick to be told, “Jody, that’s a personal problem. We’re very sad that that happened, but it really had nothing to do with the workplace. In fact, we heard, you know, that that person was going through a nasty divorce or had recently experienced some pretty significant financial problems.” And, it just was very quick to try to move on and not understand at all how a workplace could have a role in helping to prevent but also on the other side could be contributing and exacerbating the risk that we see.

Jody Frey: [00:25:27] So, as a social worker, I didn’t give up, you know. As I continue to try to bring these issues to light and see the potential actually, the opportunity for this untapped environment of a workplace to not only do education and awareness but intervention and more recently in my work, thinking about changing the systems that calls some of the increased risks and some of them are involved with work.

Jody Frey: [00:25:58] So, I kept going and I found folks like Sally that had similar ideas of how can we take what we’re seeing in our communities and in our workspaces, increasing the awareness and the training for folks that we refer to, but also building that bridge of how do we connect people with care, and how do we start the conversations so that we could think about employees asking, “Are you okay?” And, not asking it in a way like, “You’re okay, right?” But opening the door to conversation both from the workplace perspective and also from counselors.

Jody Frey: [00:26:42] And that’s another piece that I’ve been doing quite a bit of work on as well is how do I bring this into the training and the education of social workers and helping professionals so that they are also equipped to ask questions and when they ask the questions to sit and listen and be present with someone.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:26:59] Yeah, which leads me into my next question of how have you incorporated that into the curriculum that you’re teaching in your social work program?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:27:08] A lot of different ways. And I think, you know, there’s still quite a bit of work to do. But one of the ways that we’re bringing this into social work and counseling and helping professions is to actually have classes on suicide and suicide prevention.

Jody Frey: [00:27:23] I actually created at the University of Maryland an interprofessional course, where I work with our School of Nursing, and we prepare clinicians, nurses, and social workers to think about how they can work as a team in different settings, community, hospital, health care, et cetera, to identify risk and to respond appropriately to risk. And, you know, when I first started doing this work, Jamie, I thought, well, everybody knows to ask a direct question, and I brought – I think the first time I entered this in social work because I brought a QPR, question persuade and refer, training into social work, and I thought, this is going to be too novice. Like, everybody, they’re all going to know this. And we did a randomized controlled trial, actually, and found that yes some people knew this and felt it was a great refresher and some people did not know. And, I think that is just so important to think about both in education but also the workplace, that people are still very concerned that if I ask, “Are you thinking about suicide? Are you thinking about death?” That I will somehow implant that idea in the person’s head and therefore we don’t ask.

Jody Frey: [00:28:37] And so being able to have basic trainings, both at counseling programs in the workplace and the community, is so critically important to reduce the stigma or the discrimination against suicide and to help people feel confident in the ability that by asking the question doesn’t actually implant some idea, but it opens a door to say, “You’re an ally. You’re a safe person that I can talk with because, yes, I am maybe having these thoughts and no one’s really asked me about them or will listen.” And then, being prepared to think about where do we refer to.

Jody Frey: [00:29:19] So, both in our master’s program and the research I do, we’re always bringing students into that capacity to think about broader spaces and places where we can provide bridges to care. Like, some of the work that I’m doing in Michigan and Washington County, Rhode Island, with man therapy, like getting social workers and researchers and practitioners to think about different interventions that they might not be evidence-based interventions and mindfulness and cognitive behavioral therapy but, like, how do we get out into the community which includes the workplace and maybe we need to communicate differently to try to connect particularly with men, with frontline workers, with working parents, folks that are not maybe accessing our traditional mental health resources as much as we would like.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:30:10] Yeah. And I think in the workplace, sometimes there’s that fear of litigation that if I bring up mental health or something to that degree, I’ve now set myself up, you know, as a leader for that employee to, you know, sue me or something to that effect. So, how – I think that educational point is important. How can workplaces figure out that balance between, you know, regulatory requirements around an employee’s health and creating kind of that, you know, ability to be able to have those conversations safely, you know, and show that you’re that ally for that employee?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:30:47] Yeah. I think it’s very important that workplaces consider the culture of their organization. And, I think right now we’re seeing a lot of increased attention from employers when mental health and what can they be doing. But there’s still this notion, as Sally mentioned when talking about EAP, to check the box. Like, “Well, what training can I do? And, that will solve the problem.” Or, “What vendor can I use for a particular benefit? And that will solve the problem.”

Jody Frey: [00:31:17] And I think what is really needed, which then allows those conversations that you’re talking about to happen, is to take a broader view and approach of the culture of the workplace. Because some places, it is not safe to disclose vulnerabilities. And that is the reality that many workers are facing day in and day out.

[00:31:39] And so, in order to to have conversations, I think leaders need to do some work first and foremost and thinking about what do they want their workplace to look like. What does psychological safety look like and how does it work here? And do we have the resources to refer folks to should they express concerns? Because it is not the role of managers and supervisors to diagnose any kind of psychological problems, but it is their role to look at patterns of behavior and to show empathy when they have concerns to have the ability to ask “Are you okay?” and “I’m concerned about you because this is what I’m seeing,” and, “we also have the resources to take care of you.” We have to have a package deal. We cannot just offer, you know, someone to be vulnerable, and then we have nothing to offer them.

Jody Frey: [00:32:40] And, that goes beyond EAP. You know, one of the areas that I chat with employers quite a bit when they ask me, because I am an EPA expert, like, what program should we use? And, I say I will give you an answer. But first, you need to tell me what are you doing as a leader to change the culture of your workplace? And, what are you really willing to invest? Because you could have a wonderful mental health package, but if there’s no paid time off, you know if there’s no support for employees who are being harassed or discriminated in the workplace, we are continuing to put all the blame on the individual and say care for your mental health and your well-being, your self-care, when potentially this workplace is toxic or there’s aspects of it that really need some considerable change.

Jody Frey: [00:33:31] And so, I think if we start to address some of the culture, situations, and environments, then the conversations that an employer or a coworker could have are much more safe, both for the employee and for the employer. Because we’re really creating a culture of caring as compared to one that’s blaming and shaming and sending someone to a program that may or may not be connected to the resources and the overall culture of the workplace.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:34:00] Sure. You know, and I think that kind of brings up an interesting part about some of the challenges that, you know, overall might be being faced in helping to kind of slow suicide rates. From your perspective, where are some of the other challenges? I know, obviously, in the workplace, there are some things that need to be corrected. But what are some of the other challenges that individuals might be experiencing either getting help or just in general with society? You know, what does that look like in your perspective?

Jody Frey: [00:34:33] So, you know, a lot of attention, and even in some of my early work, has been training clinicians to assess and respond to suicide risk. And, that’s critically important. Sally and others, you know, have talked about, like, when you are sitting with someone who has serious suicide ideation and intensity, you need to bring your best as the crisis response. And, I know R3 does this very often in that position. We have to bring our best professional self forward and be there for that person.

Jody Frey: [00:35:05] But if we are able to get through that intense moment and step back, I think some of the bigger issues of why we’re really struggling to reduce suicide rates in a significant manner has much more to do with some of our basic needs. And so, in social work and other persons, we’re taught about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, you know, which starts with safety and security at the bottom of that pyramid. And if we’re not feeling safe, if we’re not feeling secure, if we’re not feeling like we contribute to society, then all the mindfulness in the world is not going to help us. So, I often find that we have to step back.

Jody Frey: [00:35:48] I also teach psychological first aid, and sometimes my social workers are like, “Well, we want to jump into therapy,” and I’m like, “No, we need to hand out water right now.” That’s what’s needed. People are thirsty. People are tired. Counseling maybe can come later. Maybe, it’s not needed even.

Jody Frey: [00:36:04] But I think for suicide prevention, when we look at societal issues, social connection and isolation are critically important, but so are social determinants of health. And I really see issues of poverty, racism, financial security, housing stability, food insecurity, and couple that with feeling not connected or that or withdrawn and not having access to good quality health care. This is, you know, I think, where we see suicide risk really coming to ahead and why it’s so challenging to figure out. Like, what screening should we do or what programs should we offer or what training should we do? Those are all very important pieces of the puzzle. But the bigger table that the puzzle is sitting on has to do with our societal issues.

Jody Frey: [00:36:56] And I think that’s where the guidelines that Sally and I are involved with, the National Workplace Guidelines for Suicide Prevention. We’re always trying to think, how do we go more upstream? And that’s, you know, where we’re seeing a number of employers think about which has not happened when Sally and I first entered this field and there’s still quite a bit of work to go. But the idea is to think about preventing someone from getting to the point of crisis because these other situational factors are supported and taken care of. And, as our research demonstrates the disparities in health, mental health, social determinants, I think we need to think about not just identifying the disparities but changing the systems that cause and exacerbate those disparities. And, the workplace has a great opportunity to be part of the solution for suicide prevention in that way.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:37:59] Great. And I’m excited to dive into that here in a little bit on the workplace. But real quick, just like Sally, you too have done a lot of educating and speaking and programming around suicide prevention. What would you say is your most proud kind of moment in the work that you’ve done?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:38:17] Well, definitely, ditto with the national guidelines. Sally and I used to see each other at conferences and we were just like, it was very hard to get traction. I remember trying to do my first grant on Workplace Suicide Prevention, and it got to like a week before being submitted and the workplace shut it down at a very high level saying if we do this program, more people are going to kill themselves and we’ll be held liable. And, the grant was never submitted and I couldn’t understand. I was so excited to have this comprehensive model that we were going to do and you would be the first workplace to lead the effort. And, I realized they don’t want to be the first. They don’t want to be recognized as having a problem with suicide. And, that was really hard for me during that time to just have that kind of thrown in my face with that recognition that the workplace didn’t want to lead.

Jody Frey: [00:39:16] So, I think being able to build back and look at what other countries are doing and learn from them and bring this to the U.S. has been a huge accomplishment on a more micro level I think teaching the class with social work and nurses. When I run into a student in the elevator and they said, “You know what, Dr. Frey, that class not only helped me be able to talk to my client last week, but actually my significant other or my sister express suicide ideation, and none of us knew what to do. And from the class that I took, I knew how to ask questions and I knew about resources that were going to be important not only for my family member but our whole family for healing.” And so there’s, you know, big examples of making change in workplace. And then there’s the small individual examples knowing that we just have to keep doing this work and we’re reaching more and more people, and more and more people are receiving the help they need. And, that’s very rewarding to me.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:40:21] Oh, absolutely. How powerful that is to be able to get that feedback from one of your students. That’s amazing.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:40:27] So, real quick, we’re going to hear a word from our sponsor. Workplace MVP is sponsored by R3 Continuum. R3 Continuum is a global leader in providing tailored behavioral health disruption, response and recovery, violence mitigation, and leadership support solutions. R3 Continuum is proud to have taken the Workplace Suicide Prevention Pledge to make suicide prevention a health and safety priority in their workplace.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:40:53] To learn more about the Workplace Suicide Prevention and take your pledge, visit workplacesuicideprevention.com. To learn more about R3 Continuum and their ability to create a tailored solution for the unique challenges of your workplace, visit r3c.com today.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:41:10] So moving in, I know you guys have touched on it a little bit in terms of leaders and creating this open environment, creating a culture that creates that psychological safety where employees feel like they can have those open dialogues and conversations or come to a leader for support. Let’s talk through about what are some of the ways that they can go about creating that environment and creating the, you know, creating programs or kind of that cultural feeling where it is okay to be open because I know a couple of you mentioned, you know, that there are some work environments where it’s just not. And so, how can we start kind of turning that? And, what can leaders learn today on this episode about ways that they can kind of start that process? So, we’ll go ahead and start with you, Sally, if you can share with us your thoughts on that.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:41:59] Sure. I have two thoughts. One is going to back to what you were raising earlier. We really have to address the leader’s fears. Because if the leader is afraid, it’s really not going to go in the way that we need it to be. And a lot of times, you know, I do an anonymous and confidential survey with large groups that I train and I ask, “What are your top fears?” And, you know, the top ones are usually I’m afraid I’m going to make things worse. I’m afraid I don’t know what I’m doing. You know, that kind of stuff.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:42:25] But pretty high up there, especially with what the top leadership is, this liability issue. And if that’s really at the heart of the fear blockade, they’re not going to be bold and they’re not going to fully embrace this. They’re going to kind of hold back. So, Jody and I have been working with a group of nationally known H.R. and employment lawyer folks to say how do we get, how do we get through this so that their legal counsel, their HR department, is saying, we understand this. And, one of the – we understand it and support it. And here’s why we should not be afraid. We need them on the team to help message that this is the right thing to do.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:43:01] And, usually one of the ways that we bridge that is around talking about CPR. You know, most companies, especially in our safety-critical industries, CPR all the time, everybody gets it. We train everybody, you know, just to make it fresh and keep the skills sharp and all of this. We don’t expect people to be heart surgeons. We don’t expect them to be EMTs even. But we do expect them to be aware, be confident and confident moving in, supporting a life, and connecting to resources. So, it’s the same idea here. If you were afraid that somebody’s going to crack a rib and get sued, you would never train your people in CPR and a whole bunch of people would die. So, kind of making those arguments is a really important thing. And, soon we’re going to be publishing a white paper co-written by this task force to help decrease some of those fears so that we can go ahead and do the things that we know can be lifesaving.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:43:50] The other piece that really addresses the culture issue is usually when we partner with companies, we do both the grasstops and the grassroots about the same time. So, we walk in with a small group of leaders and we say we need you to lead here. You can’t just bounce it off to your wellness department or your benefits team or your safety team. We need you out in front saying here’s why this is important for our mission, what we’re trying to do here as an organization, and very critically, here’s why it’s important to me. And, they have to have a very compelling reason why this needs to be a priority in the organization.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:44:27] And so, we coach them on, you know, if you do have a story to tell about your own distress, we can help you share that story so you look strong. If that’s your fear that you’re going to be looking weak and people are going to second guess your mental well-being, don’t have that fear. Because what actually happens, Brene Brown’s research, right, you show vulnerability, people see you as even more authentic, more trustworthy, and stronger than people who only, you know, only share the strongest sides of themselves. So, helping our leaders be strong storytellers and model, “It’s okay to talk about it, Watch me. Here I go. I’m going to talk about it,” does more to shift culture than just about anything we do.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:45:07] The other piece is for us to have listening sessions with the grassroots. This is something that, again, they’re very afraid of. They don’t want dirty secrets being aired, or I don’t even know all the fears that they have or they think they know what the problems are. And I said, even if you’re right, we should be listening. Because when we listen to people, they feel like they’re part of the process and they feel like this whole work is by them, about them, and for them. And, they’re going to be far more likely to engage than if you just took an off-the-shelf thing and jammed it into your training program. So, the leaders are very critical in this whole space.

Jody Frey: [00:45:41] And then one more thing, I just want to make sure that I don’t forget to say is that I talk a lot about construction. Most of the early-adopting communities have been the male-dominated communities, construction, extraction, manufacturing, transportation. And the reason why is because death data is clear and they’ve been hit hard. But I can tell you, there’s not a workplace here that hasn’t been impacted. It’s just sometimes the attempt data or the thought-related data is not as clear for a workplace, but it’s coming. Like, I can see other types of industries are trying to get up to speed because they know that many of their workers are suffering. So, I just want to make sure of that. It’s not just the male-dominated industries. Everybody is impacted.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:46:21] Yeah. Great, great information. How about you, Jody? What are your thoughts on this question?

Jody Frey: [00:46:27] Yeah. I think the leaders doing some looking in the mirror and really working with coaches and folks that are out there to help them, whether within their workplace or outside, to think about a strategy, to share a story perhaps, or to become a champion. I’ve seen – as a social worker, I’ve done grassroots efforts in the workplace, but they only get so far without buy-in from top leadership.

Jody Frey: [00:46:59] So, I think being able to create allies in the leaders is very important, and if they can share a story that demonstrates that they’re willing to share their own vulnerability and they’re willing to start the process to make the workplace safer, or perhaps change the culture of a workplace that hasn’t been safe for so many people. I think, you know, coaches could be in H.R. They could be in EAP. A lot of times folks need to rehearse and play and practice and be able to make mistakes in what they’re saying or they’re communicating.

Jody Frey: [00:47:40] So, not feeling alone, which, you know, I think a lot of leaders do feel like they’re on this island and it’s like all up to them to do this work but to make sure they’re using their team effectively and that they’re creating a team, a team that they’re able to be vulnerable and get feedback and continue to improve. Because turning a switch on to say, okay, we’re a psychologically safe workplace or, you know, a lot of people now are throwing equity into their language, like that doesn’t change the culture of workplace. You haven’t made it more equitable. You haven’t made it more safe. It starts the conversation and it’s critically important, but really then maximizing the resources and the assets that you have to start making real change.

Jody Frey: [00:48:23] And, one of the pieces that I would add to what Sally mentioned that I’m really encouraged to see is the intersection and the interweaving of mental health and DEI in the workplace. Now, I mean, another podcast could be why we’re seeing them interwoven. I’ve always thought that my work in mental health is DEI work. I don’t differentiate them. But what we’ve seen in workplaces is some folks have, you know, jumped in to communicate. We think about in 2020 kind of performative statements about DEI and it’s really coming back to be detrimental for workplaces that haven’t fully vested in worker well-being and changing the culture.

Jody Frey: [00:49:08] So, now I’m actually really optimistic about the workplace seeing the intersection and that if we’re going to be working on workplace suicide prevention, we need to be thinking about inclusion of our employees. We need to be thinking about equity in terms of access, in terms of opportunity, and we need to continue to value diversity and not as lip service. So, I think bringing those messages together is a great way that leaders can start to think about changing the culture of their workplace and to bring their teams together to help them to support the communication and to build more allies in this work.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:49:52] I know we’re running a little bit out of time, but there is one thing that I wanted to make sure I got mentioned on the show, and I know it was mentioned in the commercial for R3 Continuum in terms of taking the pledge. And, you both are volunteer co-chairs of the Workplace Suicide Prevention Committee that created and is working on disseminating the national guidelines for workplace suicide prevention and you both have mentioned those in some of your responses today.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:50:18] So, can you tell us a little bit about the program and the pledge that our sponsor, R3 Continuum, has taken in making suicide prevention a health and safety priority in the workplace? Because that could be really a good first step for some of these workplaces in terms of accessing tools and resources that they can use to kind of start having the dialogue or even building a program. So, Jody, do you want to start out with that? And then, Sally, we’ll have you kind of share your thoughts there as well.

Jody Frey: [00:50:49] Sure. The guidelines which, you know, R3 is a great example. So, the guidelines are online. They’re at workplacesuicideprevention.com. They’re freely available. We ask employers and professional organizations to take a pledge to make suicide prevention a health and safety priority. Now, sometimes that’s “Oh, my gosh. What does that mean?” And, some workplaces feel overwhelmed.

Jody Frey: [00:51:16] But what the beauty of the guidelines is that it provides a roadmap, you know, a toolkit with practices. Some, you’re already doing as R3 found out as an early adopter. And, you can start wherever you want. You know, maybe we start with a peer program and looking at our employee resource groups that are doing really active, great work and we build up there. Or, maybe we start because we’ve got a great champion in our leadership and we want to start with our communication and maybe doing an audit of what’s happening. You don’t have to take this all on. We’re not going to switch a light and tomorrow be a suicide-informed workplace. It’s a process, and it’s okay to take our time because changing culture takes a lot of time.

Jody Frey: [00:52:01] So, I think with the guidelines and the website itself has a ton of resources, from communication templates to where should I get training for my managers, to examples of other workplaces that are sharing best practices through videos. It’s just a wealth of information for someone to take the first step, to go online, and to probably be very pleased to say, “Hey, we’re already doing some of this work.” And as R3 recognized, they were willing to jump in and say, “I think we’re doing some of this. We are. And here’s some places where we can keep improving, keep this on our radar, and keep it moving forward.”

Jody Frey: [00:52:41] So, I definitely encourage every workplace and professional organization to take a look at the website and think about what is the right spot for you to start with and know that we’re here to support you as you’re thinking about what your next steps are.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:53:00] Great. How about you, Sally?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:53:01] Yeah. Well, I will echo the shout-out to R3. Not only were they one of our very first pledge partners, but, you know, Jeff Gardere was instrumental in helping us develop the guidelines. You know, he’s been a part of their committee for four years, and so we’re just very, very grateful for the sponsorship and opportunities like this and other times where we had a chance to talk about the guidelines and their impact.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:53:22] If you go to the website, workplacesuicideprevention.com, and you’re looking for a PDF where the guidelines are, you’re not going to find it. We also decided from the very beginning that this was not going to be a static thing that you would just – that would become outdated in five years. This is going to be an evolving thing because we’re going to learn a lot as people try practices and find out what else is missing and communities learn from each other and so forth.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:53:46] So, what we have once you become a pledged partner, you become a registered pledge partner. Then, this world opens up to you where you can dive deeply into nine practices, nine buckets of areas to grow in your company that are guided by eight guiding principles. So, you can look at the principles and decide, does this – is this the true north of where we want to head? Is this direction better than the other? That kind of thing.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:54:11] And, we have a badge process where after a certain number of practices are completed, you get a badge that starts to show your company’s investment in this effort in a public way. So, we try to make, you know, again recognizing reward, people who are taking action steps, give people some breadcrumbs to follow so they don’t feel like they’re lost in the woods, and then evolve together as we learn more and more.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:54:36] Great. And just real quick, you both shared some wonderful information, great tips. I know workplacesuicideprevention.com has been mentioned a couple of times on the show as a resource site. But if listeners wanted to get a hold of either of you, how can they go about doing that? Sally, do you have an email or LinkedIn or something that you’d like to share with the audience?

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:54:57] Yeah. I’m on all the social media platforms if you search my name. It’s easy to find me. My website is my name also, sallyspencerthomas.com.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:55:04] Okay. How about you, Jody?

Jody Frey: [00:55:06] And, yeah, I can be reached easily through the University of Maryland, jfrey@ssw.umaryland.edu. And like Sally, I’m also on all the social media. I think I’m @jodyfrey on Twitter and probably on there more than I should be. But I think it’s a great way for all of us to stay connected and share these resources and best practices. So, we hope everybody listening will take a look at the website and communicate with us, maybe even consider joining the committee. We’re always looking for new industry leaders to think about the challenges and also the opportunities to share our success story as well.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:55:47] Well, thank you both so much for being on our show. It’s such a pleasure and an honor to be able to have you both on and share the great work that you’re doing and to celebrate you for all that great work as well. So, I truly appreciate you being guests on our show.

Sally Spencer-Thomas: [00:56:01] Thank you, Jamie.

Jody Frey: [00:56:02] Thank you, Jamie. Thank you.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:56:04] We also want to thank our show sponsor, R3 Continuum, for supporting the workplace MVP podcast. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you’ve not already done so, make sure to subscribe so you get our most recent episodes and other resources. You can also follow our show on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter, @WorkplaceMVP. If you are a workplace MVP or know someone who is, we want to hear from you. Email us at info@workplace-mvp.com. Thank you all for joining us and have a great rest of your day.