Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studio in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Atlanta Business Radio, brought to you by Kennesaw State University’s Executive MBA program. The accelerated degree program for working professionals looking to advance their career and enhance their leadership skills. And now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here, another episode of Atlanta Business Radio. And this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, CSU’s executive MBA program. Without them, we wouldn’t be sharing these important stories. Today’s show, the topic is The Strategic Enemy how to build and position a brand worth fighting for. Our guest today is Laura Ries. She is the author of the book The Strategic Enemy and chairwoman of the company RIES. Welcome.

Laura Ries: Thanks so much for being here. For me being here.

Lee Kantor: We’re all happy that we’re all here.

Laura Ries: Yes we are.

Lee Kantor: So, um, before we get too far into things, just tell us about Reese. How you serving folks?

Laura Ries: Well, um, we do brand strategy and positioning work, of course. Known for our books for many years. This is one of many of the Reese books, starting from positioning in the 22 Immutable Laws of Branding. And so, yeah, so we work on top level positioning strategy with clients around the world, as well as give speeches and do other workshops and of course, the books.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, as most of your work with enterprise level organizations or some of these strategies, can they work for small or midsize businesses as well?

Laura Ries: Yeah, we don’t focus on any one type of business or industry or size or anything because we’re all thinking about, you know, how that brand is positioned in the mind. And the mind doesn’t matter how care how big your business is. So we have over the decades and I’ve been at this three decades, um, you know, worked with global five hundreds as well as entrepreneurs and startups, nonprofits, institutions, all types of businesses, companies and organizations to help them with their brand of what they stand for in the mind of the consumer.

Lee Kantor: Now, in this book, the strategic enemy, are you talking is the enemy. Your competition is the enemy. Something else like why? Why the word enemy?

Laura Ries: Sure. Well, you know, as I said, I mean, our focus has always been about positioning, and positioning is about owning an idea in the mind. But really the best way to, you know, get that idea in the mind. Understood is by contrasting it to something. And that’s what the strategic enemy is about. It’s that oppositional force that your brand or category stands against. Now. Yes, it could be a competitor. Many times it is. It many times is another category, right? You’re a new category and the enemy is the old category. You’ve got electric vehicles then. And we have gas vehicles. It could be a convention of, you know, the old way of doing things or a concept or an idea. It’s just something that you are against, right? It is what you say no to what you are not. And sometimes by clearly defining what you’re not, it makes it easier to understand what you are.

Lee Kantor: So if you were counseling a new brand, is this something that would be at the forefront? Are you trying to kind of really understand, you know, what they stand for and then where they fit into the matrix of the decision making process.

Laura Ries: When thinking about, you know, branding and positioning differentiation is is a core idea necessary to build a brand? Um, you want, you know, if you can be new first, you’re pioneering an idea or somehow being different than what’s already out there and available. Why? I mean, that drives interest, excitement and shows the reason for your being. And really, most times entrepreneurs, you know, they start a company because they see a problem. And often that problem is the strategic enemy that you’re there to solve. Um, Kim Kardashian, you know, she went up against Spanx, which was beige. And she her is her shapewear is inclusive of all colors and sizes because that was an issue that Kim was facing. She was having to put her shapewear and, you know, try to get it a darker color to match her skin tone. Um, and that, you know, became a core principle of what her brand stands for and what it stands against.

Lee Kantor: But when she started and she was Kim Kardashian, she wanted to stand out and be noticed as an influencer. So her strategy, how did she, um, differentiate herself at that time? At the beginning, because it’s easy to talk about a lot of these brands that we know now, but that’s not how they started.

Laura Ries: Well, Kim Kardashian, the thing, she became famous, right? She became a famous celebrity personality and in the media and Keeping Up with the Kardashians. But she also put an attached her brand and her celebrity and tried to pitch many products. Most of them are forgettable and we don’t remember. It was the one business that really, I think, connected to what she stands for and her beautiful shape, um, being, you know, a standout feature that that is very recognizable but also solved a key problem and hole in the in the marketplace itself that was not being filled by everyone else. And so you have the traditional brand Spanx. And then for a newer generation, always, you know, what the young girls don’t want to wear with their moms were and I’m a mom and I’m wearing Spanx, right? And so the younger girls are maybe wearing skims, as you know, a choice of a new generation that’s always an opportunity in branding. But here, I mean, that is one example where you have a celebrity, but that’s not necessarily, you know, part of the equation. I mean, there’s many examples. How about dude wipes? These were some guys out of college who realized, you know, the benefits of using baby wipes and said, why isn’t there a product for us, something that’s flushable, that has, you know, branding that speaks to us, that, you know, really gets the job done? And they did a tremendous job by going up against the enemy, which was the category dry toilet paper and became a fabulous success.

Lee Kantor: So if you were starting from scratch and say you’re just a professional service B2B firm.

Laura Ries: Yeah.

Lee Kantor: How would you go about like say you’re you just graduated college, you’re an accountant, you want to put up your own shingle and be a lawyer accountant. How would you go about building a position for yourself?

Laura Ries: Absolutely. One another. One of the key principles of positioning, of building a brand is having a narrow focus. When you try to be everything to everybody. How are you going to communicate that, even if it’s true? It’s very difficult, almost impossible to communicate. So a narrow focus is key. Um, it means, you know, saying no to something, being a specialist in something. And so, yes, if I was setting up my own B2B accounting firm, I would think about what what can I focus on? Right. Can is it going to be the size of the companies I serve? Is it going to be the speed of of how I serve, or am I more personal? Am I more electronic? Am I more old school? I mean, what one thing can set me apart from again, looking out about the competition? I mean, who is my strategic enemy? Is it the big firms? Right. And I’m the more personalized touch because you’re working directly with Laura, and Laura’s going to sign off on everything. Um, you know, all of those things. Or maybe I have a specialty that I only work with personal trainers, and that’s my specialty, right? Or maybe it’s doctors. Um, all of these things can be leveraged to be able to narrow your focus so you can stand for something, you can be remembered, and you could be seen as the best in class into whatever category you’ve set yourself up in.

Lee Kantor: So if you were this accounting firm. So the first step, is it assessing what your superpower is or what your interest is so you can specialize. Is that the first step.

Laura Ries: Yeah. But I think that has to be done in parallel to what else is out there in the marketplace. Because too often you’re right. You think about what’s my superpower? What do I want to do? Well, that’s well and good and important, but if somebody else already owns that space, if, you know, Larry is set up a block away and he has the same specialty I want to be in, and Larry is known by everybody, it’s going to be very hard for me to, you know, nudge Larry out unless I have something that can truly differentiate myself. Maybe I need to tweak so I can, you know, better, distinguish myself, find that open hole and opportunity that’s not being served out there that I can stand for. And hopefully, you know, hopefully I’m excited and good at it too.

Lee Kantor: So in so in concert, you have to identify what you’re good at because you don’t want to own a space that isn’t something you like or are good at, right. That’s not going to help in the long run. But you also want to find kind of the blue ocean area where there may not be somebody else right now in that space, so that it’s more affordable for you to invest resources to own that sliver rather than, like you said, go for the whole pie there.

Laura Ries: And think about it. And most times, you know, companies, um, or even people are chasing, you know, who whatever the hot brand, whatever the hot product is, right? Everyone’s jumping on to copy that instead. Sometimes the best thing is to go in the opposite direction and do something totally different. Um, I mean, even think about what did liquid death do, I mean, all water was sold in plastic bottles. Well, they went the opposite and put it in cans, right? I mean, that was a major difference. And it also set up I mean, their stance was, you know, the death to plastics, that plastics was ruining our environment and then also positioned it in cans that had, you know, a more loud and beer like marketing, if you will, so that people that you know, didn’t want to be drinking alcohol could have and hold a can that was just as cool, um, as if they were.

Lee Kantor: And they had the kind of sense of humor in the wink at, you know, water is supposed to be good for you. And this is positioned as liquid death. So, I mean, does humor work in a B2B setting?

Laura Ries: I think it can, um, you know, look at if you go back in history, look at what Salesforce did, I mean, with their, you know, end to software, no software. And they were picketing Oracle conventions and they really went all out on on talking and proclaiming how software was the enemy. Software was not the future. Um, and made a very bold stance of it. Now, listen, I mean, humor doesn’t have to be, you know, part of it, but I think the core essence is if you can stand for something, you can have, you know, fun and hopefully, maybe even visual ways to talk about it. I worked with a software development company. And what was their, you know, difference? What were their what was their focus? Well, they’re in South America and that is in fact different. It’s um, and they were worried. They were like, oh, well, you know, should we we don’t really want to promote that. We want to try to look like we’re global. Well, I’m like, you’re not you know, 90% of of your people are in South America. Your name, in fact, was South Works. And so, you know, the best thing we can do is to own it, promote it, and build that. In fact, the reputation and it has been on the rise of South America as being a fantastic place for development. It’s got time zone affinity, right? It’s not 12 hours ahead or behind, like like Eastern Europe and India. And so there was a lot of advantages. And so we honed in on that. And not only that, they went again. What else could we say no to? I mean, thinking about, you know, instead of serving your customer, what more can we give them? What can we say we won’t do? And one other thing they said is we don’t do long term contracts. In fact, we named it development on demand. So you could ramp it up. Ramp it down. You’re not, you know, beholden to anything. Um, it was totally flexible. And that was a way that, you know, for people to grasp and understand what you are is by defining exactly what you’re not.

Lee Kantor: Now, in, uh, is is the customer the same, like your company goes back, uh, a while in terms of, um, being around and involved in marketing and advertising, obviously, um, is the consumer of marketing and advertising. Are they behaving in the same way that they did, you know, 50, 60 years ago? Is that is is the brand hold as much weight and and give the consumers much confidence in a world where I can go to Amazon and buy an item with some name I can’t even pronounce in a list of, you know, similarly named, um, products.

Laura Ries: Well, I mean, there’s a lot to unpack there. So let’s start with the first thing. Um, I mean, people are basically the same, but, you know, think back to, um, you know, I as you many may know, I work with my dad for, for decades. And, you know, when he wrote and talked about the problems of advertising in the 1970s and he said it was, you know, so over, you know, there was too much communication, the over communicated society. I mean, it’s kind of laughable. We think back now to I mean, that was the good old times. There were three channels on the, on the TV. Um, but that was the start of it. In terms of initially advertising, there were so few media out there that and so few people could afford advertising. It was fantastic. Right. So if you just got some ads out with a fairly decent product or service, you know, you were golden. Um, well, those days certainly are long gone. And, you know, the reality is, is people don’t love advertising, right? They don’t want to have advertising. What? Advertising is incredibly effective and important today, even today, is as a reminder to people to remind you of the power of, of the brand, of the company, of the category. But and here’s the thing, when you mention about going to Amazon and, you know, getting the knockoff at a good price, you know, delivered tomorrow, people don’t really care about brands. That’s the fallacy. They care about categories. And it is those cat. We verbalize those categories as brands. And you know, if that brand is strong and it can be symbolic and, you know, used as an, as a, you know, stand in for the category itself, it becomes powerful. So you have Kleenex tissue, right? You have bounty paper towels.

Laura Ries: And for people I’ve been buying bounty or Kleenex is the real thing. Anything else is a substitute. Now, maybe some people do want to save money and they will. But you know, those brands have tremendous power as being the real thing and dominating those categories that in most cases, you know, they were the brand that pioneered them as the quicker picker upper or the first, you know, facial tissue and a pop up box. Um, you know, those are powerful ideas. The problem long term at too many companies is, you know, the weakening, um, by a line extension of putting one brand name on too many categories and products. That’s what some brand like Scott did, right? It was scottie’s toilet paper. It was Scott toilet paper. Then it was scottie’s tissues and paper towels and napkins. All of a sudden it just became a company name with no real power, no real emotion. It wasn’t a substitute for any one category itself, and it lost its power and really then ability to drive, you know, profits and margins and all those good things that a real brand will deliver. Um, and so, you know, we see the, you know, both of those things happening out in the world where there are places where, you know, the brands are so weak they don’t really deliver. And people, you know, will buy anything on Amazon. Um, because it seems like a reasonable substitute. Um, yet in many categories we have those strong brands. I mean, you know, it’s for me, it’s tied or nothing or bounty or Kleenex or many of these products. Um, and so, you know, that’s the real difference. And that’s the, you know, the true opportunity of, of owning something and becoming the real thing in those categories themselves.

Lee Kantor: Um, but is the younger generation as brand loyal as maybe our generation was? Um, does it does it mean the same, like, does tide mean the same to a 20 year old today as it did to us or our parents?

Laura Ries: Well, if it doesn’t, shame on tide, because what an opportunity. But today we have tide. There’s a lot of line extension tide pods for one. Is it a liquid or a pod? I don’t know. They’re confusing people. Um, you do build that mind memory of those brands. Um, and that is the challenge. Because a new generation is born, new people are born every day. And so the consistency of those brands in understanding what they stand for and, you know, continuously reminding of that, like chick fil A and the chicken sandwich and telling us to eat more chicken, you’ve got BMW, the ultimate driving machine. I mean, those are powerful ideas of companies that are dedicated to it. So it is, you know, it is in fact, a challenge for these companies to make it relevant to a new generation and continually reinforce that one key idea. But sure, I think I think the younger generation is just as is interested in brands. If those brands, um, can clearly communicate, their difference and their importance to them. But here’s the thing not all brands are going to survive, right? I mean, some brands will, you know, unfortunately, are going to pass away. I mean, we’ve seen in our lifetime, I mean, things like Blockbuster Video and Kodak film. Why? Not because the brands were sad or weak. It was those categories themselves. Um, you know, suffered a demise. Um, and those brands, as a result, were not able to kind of go on into the future because they were too entrenched by owning and standing for those, you know, deceased categories in the mind.

Lee Kantor: But it’s, uh, it’s kind of a double edged sword, though, because you can you can die on your hill. And when the when your technology has been disrupted and then you’re the last one standing, you know, advocating for, you know, the Kodak film when a world that doesn’t use film. Uh, so that’s okay.

Laura Ries: I don’t. Don’t you worry. I’ve got the answer for you. It is called giving birth to your own enemy. Companies need to launch new brands. Instead of thinking, you know, how can we use the our Kodak name on Kodak Digital, right? Or Blockbuster on Blockbuster streaming or these things? The real opportunity for companies and the one that is going to ensure their future success, is always looking for ways and new categories and new brands they can launch. Where would Toyota be if they didn’t launch Lexus? Where would the gap be if they didn’t launch Old Navy? And one of my favorites, Mike’s Hard Lemonade. This was a big success in the early 2000, as kids were turning away from from beer and looking for other drinks. This was a hard lemonade. But then what happened? We all realized how much sugar, calories, and carbs were in those things, right? This was a big problem. What did they do? Well, yeah, they did do some line extension, but then they thought of a new brand and a new category called Hard Seltzer, and they called it White Claw. White claw has dominated the market and made the company more successful than ever. That’s the exciting opportunity, not trying to, you know, maintain the past success of those brands because, you know, sometimes things do go out of fashion. Um, and, you know, you continue that and, you know, drive it as long as it goes. But the real chance is to launch those new brands and new categories, and it’s something more companies need to think about doing.

Lee Kantor: So to kind of, um, put yourself or that brand out of business or be open to like, I mean, Netflix is kind of doing that, but they kept the brand Netflix. I mean, they’re one of the few places that blew themselves up.

Laura Ries: Yes. Well, I cover the Netflix story in, in, in full in the book because it’s such an interesting case. Um, you know, they they were the pioneer, as you and I, I’m sure remember the DVDs by mail. Right.

Lee Kantor: So that but the the enemy was blockbuster. That was an easy one. They were they were following your playbook.

Laura Ries: They were.

Lee Kantor: And and then they said, you know what? I see the future and it’s not this. And then let’s just do streaming and we’ll do House of cards. And now we are this other thing here that’s even better than forget about mailing things back and forth. But that is the exception. I mean, there’s a short list of companies that did that.

Laura Ries: Well, here’s here’s the thing about Netflix. What they didn’t do was wait for streaming to be big and then jump on it. They pioneered streaming. They did streaming before anyone even thought it was a good idea. They in fact, they gave it away initially to their, you know, mail by, you know, DVD by mail customers. They kind of get them hooked because back then streaming sucked. We didn’t have good Wi-Fi. It wasn’t very good, but they had they got in the mind early with the category itself. And then they they one day when they said, that’s it, we’re going all in on streaming. No more DVDs. They just shut it down. They didn’t shut it down, but they stopped talking about it. That was the they just. Well, they try to it’s a long story, but they tried to rename it Qwikster and do all these things and they realized, you know, don’t make a whole hullabaloo about it. We just very quietly never talk about the DVDs again. And about a decade or so later, it finally shut down. All everything went into Netflix being, you know, the the streaming service and building and pioneering the category. The thing is, most companies, they can’t do it because they weren’t first. Right. So Redbox, you know, they were the pioneer of the, you know, DVDs in the supermarket, right? Terrific. Yeah, they jumped on streaming, you know, in the way after, you know, Netflix is a huge success. Jumping on later as a me too ain’t going to work. You can’t make that transition. You can only do it if you’re the pioneer. And that happens as to your to your point, very few and far between times. Um, you know, most often companies sit around like blockbuster. I mean, at the very end, blockbuster Nokia dumb phones are making a ton of money before you know, it all goes away with a shift to a new category. And as a result, a new brand for that category like the iPhone or like Netflix and streaming.

Lee Kantor: I mean, it’s hard for, I mean, any business that’s mature and has a board of directors. I mean, the person that’s signing off on taking that kind of risk is, again, a very short list. I mean, only an entrepreneurial organization could pull something like that off.

Laura Ries: It’s you you do have to have a very tough stomach. Another one that did it was Nvidia. And why? Because Jensen Huang is a you know, he’s got a stomach of iron. Um, you know a brilliant I mean he an entrepreneurial type of CEO leading that company. And, you know, they did a lot of amazing things in pioneering the GPU and the graphics processor for, you know, basically high end gaming PCs. And then what did he do? He made a dramatic shift to reposition, refocus the company on AI chips, which at the early days everyone said he was crazy. The stock price took a huge hit. Um, but he saw the future. And you know, sometimes, you know, these people like Elon Musk seeing electric vehicles. Um, and, you know, honestly bet the company’s future on it. And of course, it, you know, paid off spectacularly. Um, because in today everyone’s into AI. But, you know, Nvidia is the leader in chips.

Lee Kantor: But is this, like, kind of a survivor bias? Um, where, you know, we’re not remembering all the ones that went all in on the bad bet that didn’t make it.

Laura Ries: Well, a little, but I mean, I do think in terms of, you know, and here’s the thing, Nvidia was doing fine. Um, and I think, you know, that the GPU was, you know, a big success. Um, but, you know, even greater success. What I study is, of course, you study things that fail. But when you look at the successes, you know, what was the thing that happened? And if you look at it, it is being first pioneering. Um, you know, jumping on the bandwagon doesn’t, you know, usually lead to success. Um, line extensions don’t usually lead to success unless everybody else’s line extended to, um, you know, so that’s where you know, these rules or, you know, you can look at a case and, you know, say, oh, well, you know, if all the beer, all the beer brands were line extended. So line extension is a good idea. Well, what if there wasn’t one? Right. Um, and you see then the rise of, of brands, like, for example, athletic beer, You know, a beer pioneered to, you know, be the not the only brand that you can order. You know by name. As you know, they’ve all in on nonalcoholic, you know, rising and really making a big deal about the category. It only comes in cans because they feel it’s for, you know, active lifestyles taking it places. Um, and because they’re focused, they can really have fun with the messaging. I mean, to your point about, you know, using humor. Well, they they can go all in on it and say, why are you, you know, why are you still drinking alcohol? Don’t you want to wake up and have a better tomorrow? I mean, they can go in on it. Where, you know, Heineken zero. How can they say alcohol’s bad when, you know 99% of their business is selling Heineken with alcohol.

Lee Kantor: So that you have to have congruity like, it has to all make sense in the mind of the consumer, or else they’re going to like, call it inauthentic, or maybe subconsciously they’re going to rebel against it and not buy it.

Laura Ries: Yeah, well, you don’t stand for anything.

Laura Ries: I mean, that’s where I mean, I, you know, how do you how do you establish authenticity, right? I mean, it’s kind of this mythical type of thing. And I do think consistency is a big part of it, of, you know, being one thing, standing for it, and then of course, reinforcing it. Um, you know, for, for many years and having, um, you know, authentic spokespeople that can, you know, be the voice and talk about it. I mean, that that over time, I mean, change is what undermines it. And that’s where you see the strong reactions to companies when they make even minor changes to a logo. I mean, two great examples. You look back at when Tropicana dropped the orange and the straw. I mean, the consumers revolted. Can you imagine just for a logo and a package, it was the same orange they didn’t touch. The orange juice was still, you know, fresh from concentrate, not fresh fresh juice from the orange, not from concentrate. Right. I mean, that was a pioneering idea. And then, you know, the more recently we have the Cracker Barrel debacle, You know, where they took off the, you know, iconic. When you have a visualization of your brand of your specifically your brand name that is very well known, removing it tends to be very jarring to people. Um, and you see the results of, of the, you know, all of the consumer uproar around it.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, it sounds like a lot of your work, you’re you’re not just sitting in an ivory tower coming up with great ideas. Research is at the heart of what you’re doing. You’re you’re kind of looking at case studies and you’re understanding or you’re trying to understand what is kind of the common threads where let me connect some dots that maybe other people aren’t seeing. Is there anything that came up in your research that maybe went against what you anticipated and surprised you?

Laura Ries: It’s a good question.

Laura Ries: I mean, you definitely, you know, you definitely got to get out into the marketplace, out in the muck. I think research is important, most importantly, researching what people are thinking about right now. Um, the one thing that’s very difficult is, you know, to try to predict what people will do in the future. Um, you know, there no one knows, right? It’s very hard to say what they would do when given a choice of a new brand, for example. Um, but I’m trying to think of there’s nothing really too shocking. I mean, most of the situations, um, you know, tend to be pretty straightforward. It’s just always, um, I find the stories of these brands, um, you know, fascinating. I mean, looking back and, um, studying the history and, of course, the brands that, you know, I’ve worked with for, for, for a long times. And, um, so now I can’t think of a good story on that one.

Lee Kantor: What about, um, how Costco’s been able to build the Kirkland brand? That goes kind of against what you were saying earlier about Scotts, where there’s one Kirkland brand, there’s not. You know, the Kirkland batteries are the same as the Kirkland jelly beans. It’s, uh, you know, we all know that they’re being made by another leading producer of those items, but it’s all going under the Kirkland brand, and the Kirkland brand is kind of dominating, um, as a private label brand. I don’t know if there’s many other private label brands that are larger than Kirkland. And and it’s really driving a lot of revenue for Costco.

Laura Ries: Um, gosh. Yeah. So well, it’s well, here’s the thing.

Laura Ries: I mean, Costco is a fantastic idea, right? I mean, the warehouse approach they have, you know, they stock fewer items, um, they make all their money on the membership card, right? So they can, you know, sell the stuff dirt cheap. So you always feel like you’re getting a deal. It’s also a pleasure to to go there because there’s not, you know, 18 choices. You know, there’s basically one choice in each category or there’s the one choice and there’s the Kirkland choice. Now, here’s the thing. They’ve built Kirkland over, you know, many, many years. It’s it’s a nice, simple name. And they’re very strategic about what they go in against and up against. Right? So they pick categories where they really feel they can deliver, you know, a good quality. Um, they can, you know, match or, you know, beat expectations. Um, and have, you know, a good shot where people will, you know, be very inclined to go with the Costco brand and those things. But Costco is itself is, you know, people are have such a strong feeling about it. And because they love Costco, because they know Kirkland is Costco’s brand, um, you know, that is built a very strong reputation. And so in any case, where the, you know, big named, you know, national brand is a little bit weak, that leaves an opportunity for Kirkland. People will jump over to Kirkland, and once they then have a good experience with the product, you know, they keep going back. And people are very loyal, um, to both Costco and Kirkland.

Lee Kantor: And they’ve been able to, um, really, I think dominate and attract a younger audience. This isn’t a brand. That’s just your grandfather’s Costco. I mean, young people are flocking to Costco nowadays.

Laura Ries: Oh, my, oh my my my son and his girlfriend. I mean, they’re obsessed. I mean, that’s their daily ritual. I mean, and what a what a, you know, interesting way because it, they have, you know, been very approachable to, to the younger generation. And I think because they want to save money, there’s an atmosphere of going and shopping in person. Right.

Lee Kantor: That and and discovering that, you know, that deal or that thing that you never knew you wanted and found that that treasure hunt kind of, uh.

Laura Ries: Well, that yeah, the the experience of going and touching and sampling, um, is, is very, very strong. And I think, you know, relevant just as much to, to my generation as to the younger generation and continually to, to not only do it but and outdo themselves. Right. They haven’t gotten lazy. Right. They are continually to improve, you know, their methods, their store, their Kirkland brand. What they’re doing, all of that is very strong. Instead of, you know, trying to go out in different directions. Now, I know they have an online, but you know, that in-store experience is so critical and they do such a great job of it. Another one is Trader Joe’s. Right. I mean, they also have, you know, their their home brand kind of focus as and make it also a simple pleasurable experience. It’s a smaller footprint of store. You don’t have a lot of options. And you you know and trust that Trader Joe’s is going to deliver, you know, a highly, um, you know, quality curated brand, product, etc..

Lee Kantor: So if you were counseling some of the others in the markets, like, like how does a, uh, a Kroger or a Publix, how would you if you were counseling them, how would you, uh, counsel them in terms of differentiating versus vis a vis a Trader Joe’s or a Costco?

Laura Ries: Yeah. Well, listen, I mean, there are little bit stuck what I call in the mushy middle, right? Because you’ve got at the high end, you know, you’ve got the Whole Foods and you’ve got the premium markets. And then at the low end, you know, you’ve got the Costco which kind of is a premium low end right discount. And you’ve got, you know, the behemoth which is Walmart. Um, so you know how you know what is a Kroger right. It’s not as you know, fancy and premium as Whole Foods, but it’s not as cheap as Walmart. It’s probably a little bit more convenient. You don’t have to drive as far. But I think one thing I mean fresh for everyone I think is a is a good message and slogan for Kroger. Um, because they are the the neighborhood store. The fact that and if they they need to deliver on it consistently across all stores, but the ability to have that good pricing fresh for everyone, um, you know, is, is probably their best bet. Um, and you know, the in-store experience and making sure that that is, you know, stellar is, you know, a challenge. But maybe, you know, opportunity. Publix has done a very good job on the service angle, right where shopping is a pleasure.

Laura Ries: Again, you got to deliver on that. That isn’t, you know, necessarily easy. As you know, you don’t have enough shopper lanes or, you know, help at the checkout. Um, but that perception and the continue if you can succeed in, you know, getting that idea people remember Publix is a pleasure to shop but you better deliver when you get in there because when people don’t have that matching and there’s a disassociation, um, that can be problematic. And listen, that’s what has happened in target, right? So target had a very good reputation as cheap chic, right. You know, Walmart was always low prices but target was a little bit more fashionable, right. They had a little bit more design touch. The stores were nice and clean, a little bit friendlier. Um, but you know, as costs went, you know, we’re tough. Um, and they lost some of that focus and they had some, you know, bad customer experiences. You know, they’ve been having some, you know, tough times recently. So it’s, you know, once you own an idea you’ve got to continually, you know, keep Keep the pedal to the metal on it. Right. Continue to get get better at what you’re doing. Reinforce in what you’re doing. Um, and, you know, continuing to drive that growth.

Lee Kantor: And it’s hard when you’re tying yourself to fashion, which is so subjective and fickle. That’s a tough one. You really got to be nimble because that things change and you better be moving or else you’re you’re old news.

Laura Ries: That that is very true. It is always, uh, you know, difficult. Which is crazy because what you’ve seen recently is Walmart trying to become more fashionable. They were at Fashion Week. They do these spreads. I mean, it is just insane because the thing you cannot do is change a mind that’s already made up. And to most people, Walmart is not where you go for fashionable stuff. Cheap? Yes. Right. So you know the best brands at always low prices. I mean, why isn’t anyone ever happy with having an amazing focus and business? Why does the grass always look greener. I mean, you probably remember back, you know, Sears. What did Sears I mean, Sears was the dominant hard goods leader. Yet they were running campaigns, the softer side of Sears and trying to sell dresses and ladies fashion disaster. When you have something so strong, you’re not going to be able to change a mind. And I don’t know why companies waste their time doing it.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. For Walmart, the thing that struck that I struggle with is like, I don’t like to go into it because it’s a mess. There’s stuff on the floor. It’s just a terrible experience for me to go in and do anything in there. But I never consider them online where I wouldn’t have to deal with any of that stuff, and I would just have the good price part of it. Um, but but there’s a disconnect in my mind. Like you were saying earlier, that once it’s locked in, it’s hard to unlock it.

Laura Ries: It’s it’s nearly impossible. And, you know, the funny thing is you got to go back to Walmart because they’ve made strides in making their stores much cleaner and much more organized. Guys and you know that person. But listen, that’s why perceptions last a long time once they’re strongly in that mind. And so, you know, they’ve been really fighting to to battle back for people who did have that experience. But um, you know, they’ve done very good in store. And they really they’re trying to ramp up. And it’s interesting you say that because I, I just recently used the Walmart, um, website to buy something. I kind of wanted to do my own customer research to test it out. Listen, it was pretty, um, pretty nice experience, actually, but who thinks of it? I go immediately to Amazon. I mean, trying to change my behavior to go to Walmart, which I instantly as soon as you say Walmart, I think a store, um, is a big challenge. I mean, again, they would have had such a great opportunity for a second brand in that case. I mean, you think about, you know, you have, you know, PetSmart, which is, you know, the store where you go for your pet stuff and buy pets. But chewy is a second online brand is such a great move, right? They purchased it, but they kept it separate. Um. And so chewy is becomes the dominant, you know, online shopping experience that can go all in on that. Yet you still keep the pet stores because if you need to buy fish or want to buy your kid a lizard, we’ve got a leopard gecko. I mean, I really don’t think you can order those online. That’d be kind of weird. Not to mention the fresh crickets. The thing eats like five times a week. Um, so, you know, but, you know, keeping those separate each can, you know, do best at what it does best. Um, and that’s the opportunity that too many companies miss.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And I was saying that now there’s Chewy Vets or they’re, they’re some licensing of the brand for vets.

Laura Ries: Yes. Well there, there is. You know, there’s online docs for people. And now we’re getting these online doc brands for pets. But think about it. Do you want a pet you know, chewy doctor or do you want like a more appropriate doctor kind of website? I mean, the opportunity to go to. I mean, there’s no advantage in, you know, when online something is a click away, you can go to a specialist. I mean, the specialist has great advantage. Um, and, you know, taking that opportunity instead of companies thinking, you know, what else can we get into? Uh, what else can we leverage our brand? Instead of thinking maybe that might weaken our brand. Um, and, you know, maybe we can set up a new brand.

Lee Kantor: So when it comes to a brand and there’s someone out there listening and wants to connect with you or somebody on your team, what is that ideal customer look like for Reese?

Laura Ries: Well, anyone that has a passion for improving their positioning, building their brand, finding their focus, identifying their strategic enemy. Um, you know, I just I’d love to work with entrepreneurs, companies, um, to, you know, to really get in there and understand it, to clarify things, to simplify things. I mean, it’s a challenge to simplify, but when you can nail it, um, it leads to really great brand success and, you know, success. But to find me, I am just at com and it’s Aria com, we’ve got books, consulting, consulting, all sorts of resources to check out.

Lee Kantor: And the book, The Strategic Enemy, that’s out now. Right.

Laura Ries: It is. It just came out had the big party at the country club last week. So fun. Um, it’s been, uh, the first book I’ve come out with in about ten years. So there’s a lot of great, um, updated examples, excitement on how you can best position by first identifying that strategic enemy to position against.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, Laura, a pleasure talking to you. And congratulations on all the success. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Laura Ries: Well, thanks so much. So fun to talk.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Atlanta Business Radio.