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Decision Vision Episode 55: Should I Change My Customer Profile? – An Interview with Andy Goldstrom, Midcourse Advisors

March 12, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 55: Should I Change My Customer Profile? – An Interview with Andy Goldstrom, Midcourse Advisors

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Mike Blake and Andy Goldstrom

Decision Vision Episode 55: Should I Change My Customer Profile? – An Interview with Andy Goldstrom, Midcourse Advisors

Why is developing a customer profile so important? How should I develop a customer profile? Andy Goldstrom, Midcourse Advisors, answers these questions and much more when he joins host Mike Blake on this edition of “Decision Vision,” presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Andy Goldstrom, Midcourse Advisors

Andy Goldstrom

As Managing Partner at Midcourse Advisors, Andy Goldstrom and his team grow companies profitably and do it fast. Andy is an expert with B2B companies and is a sought-after business partner and speaker.

Early in his career, Andy started and built a division of a real estate brokerage company that generated 30%+ margins and grew from 1 to over 500 employees. After that, he took over an existing national recycling company and grew the top line from $70M to $100M and profit from $10M to $17M in 3 years. Both businesses were both designated as Inc. 500 companies, the fastest growing privately help companies nationwide, and subsequently sold to Fortune 500 companies at high multiples. Most recently, he served as Global Director at a major investment bank, where he grew service capabilities over in 70 countries while saving $12M annually.

In each case, Andy led sales teams that competed efficiently and effectively to win an extraordinary amount of business. In addition, he reduced cycle times and increased the frequency of incoming sustainable business, creating incremental value that was monetized when the companies were sold.

He started Midcourse Advisors as a way to give back to the B2B services community and now offers his knowledge and experience to organizations looking for ways to grow and improve.

For more information, go to the Midcourse Advisors website.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”

Michael Blake is Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

“Decision Vision” is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the “Decision Vision” podcast. Past episodes of “Decision Vision” can be found here. “Decision Vision” is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:01] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:20] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:39] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a Director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we are recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast? If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:04] So, today, we’re going to talk about whether you should change your customer profile. And I’m excited about this topic. I mentioned this topic for a number of reasons. Number one, as it happens, it’s very timely. I just came back from a strategy meeting at our global headquarters in Dayton, Ohio, where the valuation practice of Brady Ware got together and we decided, in effect, our strategy for the next five years.

Mike Blake: [00:01:36] And in the nine hours that we had that meeting, about eight of them talked about defining what our customer profile is going to be going forward. And I think that’s so critical because unless you figure out what your customer profile as all the other things that you want to talk about in terms of marketing and staffing, investment, and other strategy, none of those are going to be right unless you understand what your customer profile is going to be.

Mike Blake: [00:02:06] It’s that central, it’s that foundational to your business strategy. And therefore, you know, we decided that if that’s all we accomplish in that particular day, then that was going to be a win for us. And I’m not leading up to a big announcement or anything like that. But, you know, we will probably, in about four to six weeks, as we flesh out the strategy. But the strategy part is not time well-spent unless you’ve identified that customer.

Mike Blake: [00:02:39] The other neat part about going out to Dayton was I discovered something that I did not know because I do not pay attention to college basketball that much, now that Georgetown has somehow managed to be irrelevant in college basketball. But the Dayton Flyers, I don’t know if I ever realized it, Dayton Flyers are ranked number six or seven in the country. I have no idea. So, anyway, good for Dayton out there. And by the way, what a cool name, the Flyers.

Mike Blake: [00:03:04] Of course, with the Flyers because that’s where the Wright brothers originated, even though they did their flight in North Carolina. So, a shout out to the Dayton Flyers. We’ll be rooting for them when the tournament shows up. But, you know, the customer profile is so foundational. And, you know, when companies—every company, I don’t think there’s a company in the world that is satisfied with selling. Every company believes that it can sell better than it’s currently doing.

Mike Blake: [00:03:31] I think most companies look at revenue and sales and says, you know, look, when I wake up in the morning, that’s one of the things that I worry about. It’s one of things that I worry about going to bed the night before, too, is sales. And if you don’t have that customer profile right, everything else just doesn’t matter. And that requires, quite frankly, deep thought and requires some understanding of what that customer is going to be because you’re literally going to build everything around that.

Mike Blake: [00:04:01] And in spite of having a big powwow about this, I’m not the expert on that. But instead, we’ve brought in somebody who is an expert on this. And that’s my friend, Andy Goldstrom, who is managing partner of Midcourse Advisors. Midcourse Advisors are business strategists and growth experts for small and medium-sized service businesses. They help leaders focus on the right pursuits and execute effectively using proprietary tools and methodologies that enable them to scale their businesses and grow rapidly.

Mike Blake: [00:04:29] As managing partner of Midcourse Advisors, Andy and his team grow companies profitably and do it fast. Andy’s an expert with business-to-business companies and is a sought-after business partner and speaker. Early in his career, Andy started and built a division of a real estate brokerage company that generated over 30% margins and grew to over 500 employees from one. After that, he took over an existing national recycling company, grew the top line from $70 million to $100 million in revenue and profit from $10 to $17 million in three years.

Mike Blake: [00:05:02] Both businesses were designated as Inc. 500 companies, the fastest growing privately-held companies nationwide and subsequently sold to Fortune 500 companies at high multiples. Most recently, he served as global director at a major investment bank, where he grew service capabilities in over 70 countries while saving $12 million, annually. He started Midcourse Advisors as a way to give back to the business community and now offers his knowledge and experience to organizations looking for ways to grow and improve. Andy, thanks for coming on the program.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:05:33] Thanks so much for having me. And good to see you after we met several years back and have been in touch.

Mike Blake: [00:05:39] Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:05:39] I appreciate being on your show.

Mike Blake: [00:05:42] So, before we get started, have you just published a book or is a book about to come out?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:05:48] I have a book coming out. I’m just working on the right promotion.

Mike Blake: [00:05:53] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:05:53] I got all the content in place, but it’s got all the basics about how to grow your business lessons from an Inc. 500 person, an executive. And it has some things about customer profile in it that can be used, tools and methodologies and anecdotes and case studies and all the rest.

Mike Blake: [00:06:14] And when do you think that book will come out?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:16] Probably in the next 60 days.

Mike Blake: [00:06:18] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:18] And when we reference my website, you can see a link for it.

Mike Blake: [00:06:22] And do you know what is the title of the book? Do we know that yet?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:25] We’re trying to finalize that.

Mike Blake: [00:06:28] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:29] Yeah. Right now, it’s called the Ten Deadly Sins of Growing Your Business.

Mike Blake: [00:06:35] Oh, nice.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:36] Yeah. So, I’ve got 10 themes. The only thing I’m trying to struggle with and I’m getting feedback from experts is that if you Google that, you get a lot of other junk.

Mike Blake: [00:06:47] Okay. I guess that makes sense.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:49] Right? So, I just want it to be poignant and on point. Title is an important thing.

Mike Blake: [00:06:54] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:54] So-

Mike Blake: [00:06:55] Well, good luck with that.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:06:56] Thanks.

Mike Blake: [00:06:56] And make sure we know about when the book is launched, so we can publicize it.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:07:00] I will. Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:07:03] So, you mentioned in your book, in fact, you deliberately discuss or separately discuss customer profiles. So, let’s get the vocabulary right. What is a customer profile? Is it the same thing as what people call a customer avatar?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:07:16] Sure. The first thing I just want to do is step back. When you talk about customer profile and when you had your meetings in Dayton, you had gotten to a specific point, knowing that you were serving the customer in certain markets and you knew you were doing accounting work and valuation work and other work. So, there’s a bigger picture than just the customer profile to successfully grow a business, but the customer profile is foundational.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:07:40] So, you need to know your industry and your target market and your customer segment before you even get to your customer profile. But when you get to that point, it’s really a representation of your ideal customer and it’s defined. It’s something that allows you to target, given that you have limited resources. And the thing that happens is most companies don’t do a really good job and it inhibits them from reaching their goals, which is a credit to you and your company in terms of how much time you’re spending on the, trying to get right.

Mike Blake: [00:08:16] Well, you know, we hope we got it right. Now, we got to execute.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:08:19] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:08:19] So, it all looks great on the whiteboard. We’ll see how it turns out in practice, but-

Andy Goldstrom: [00:08:23] And you mentioned the avatar.

Mike Blake: [00:08:25] Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:08:26] So, an Avatar is kind of a physical representation of it. I teach at Georgia State in addition to doing my consulting and we call it a persona. And it’s a physical representation with a name to it, so you can kind of feel it and look at it. So, for instance, as an example, just if someone’s a really avid tennis player and you know that they’re going to buy premium products because they love tennis so much and they want to differentiate their game and have every advantage possible, that avatar might be Peter, the professional tennis player or something like that. So, you actually can have a physical look as an avatar in terms of what that target customer could be or what that customer profile would look like. And then, obviously, there are a lot of different characteristics associated with that person.

Mike Blake: [00:09:17] It’s interesting. I never thought of it from a physical manifestation perspective, but that makes sense. And I know you specialize in service businesses. Do you go through that process with service businesses, too? Can you do that with professional services in terms of building a customer avatar like that?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:09:33] Absolutely. So, I’ll give you an example. I worked with a company that was a generalist type of company and they weren’t growing as fast as they want. They happened to be in the real estate services space, which is one of the things I focus on. I work with companies outside of that, but I’m focused on my customer profile. And they had expertise and background and hung out in technology areas, like where you sometimes spend your time, Michael.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:10:05] And so, we said you have to create an avatar or a customer profile based upon what that technology company leader looks like and what he looks for and what he cares about. And so, we developed a profile on that and it was Tom, the technologist. And literally, it was an opportunity to understand how they need flexibility in what they’re doing, how they care about vision, how they want to be able to grow their business quickly and how they care about all the technological aspects in the wiz bank things. And so, that kind of profile and being able to address their needs specifically knowing what they’re like compared to a corporate executive is very important.

Mike Blake: [00:10:55] So, you obviously agree, we think a customer profile is important or critical, but can a business theoretically be successful without one? Is that what we would think of as a mass market? For example, does Procter and Gamble have a customer avatar for Tide? Do they make Tide? I think they do.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:11:17] I think that’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:11:18] So, for some of us, that’s truly mass market. You know, do they have a customer profile, do you think or do they just make a product they think is really good, position it and distribute it in a certain way and sort of off they go? What do you think that looks like?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:11:33] No, they definitely have an avatar and it might be broader. But when they first started making Tide, it wasn’t as mass market or broad as it is. So, when you get a certain appeal, you can expand it. The example I use is McDonald’s. McDonald’s actually has brand ambassadors to focus on specific customer profiles for their specific type of food that they sell. So, they actually have somebody who just focuses on salads, you know, and people who just focus on burgers and literally, the customer segment that would be more in line with that.

Mike Blake: [00:12:15] You know, that’s interesting. I’d like to drill down on that for a second because I would not have guessed that, but I guess that perhaps makes sense because when McDonald’s—I find McDonald’s fascinating. I worked there as a kid. I used to think the way they produce things is just so cool.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:12:30] The whole story about, you know, the mass customization and the way that-

Mike Blake: [00:12:35] Yeah, it really is fascinating. But anyway, when they first introduced salads, that did not go well for them initially, right? Because it’s very confusing to the market, right? Because I think they didn’t have a customer avatar for that. And it sounds like what you think they discovered is maybe they have multiple customer profiles.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:12:58] They do. But they started from a foundational element and a base. And if you’re a new company, you really can’t afford to spread yourself too thin.

Mike Blake: [00:13:06] Right.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:13:06] And if you’re an existing company that’s starting something new, it’s just as important.

Mike Blake: [00:13:12] So, what are the pieces or components of a customer profile?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:13:18] Sure. There are several pieces. The key thing, what’s really important is it needs to be data-driven. So, it’s not something where you talk to your friend or you see something on TV or you just have something in your gut that tells you this is what my customer could look like. You really have to do the research to understand it, to inform your decisions. And, you know, Michael, when you post on LinkedIn, you have all these data charts and data, and I think you do it because it’s interesting, but you also do it because it can inform—you know, it’s sparks curiosity, but also informs how people make decisions.

Mike Blake: [00:14:01] And it also is indicative of my ideal customer profile.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:14:04] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:14:05] Right? If you like to guess, you’ll need to pay me to guess.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:14:09] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:14:09] It’s like when, you know, I tell my son, “Go tell your mother something”, right? And then, he just screams at the bottom of the staircase, like I could have done that. I wanted to go up the stairs and do that. The same thing, you don’t need to pay me to guess, right? But I’m trying to build a brand that suggests that we’re data-driven.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:14:27] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:14:27] I’m glad you picked up on that. I might be doing something right.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:14:30] Right. Absolutely. So, let me answer your question. Common elements are demographics. So, if it’s a B2C, it tends to be income, gender, marital status, things like that. For B2B, it’s the size of the opportunity, the industry and the location. You have to focus on customer needs. And it’s interesting. Customer needs are both perceived in latent needs. And it’s really interesting. A latent need is so important in terms of getting somebody to buy. And a perceived need is something that a customer knows, a latent need, they might not know or might not be out in front, but it’s something that drives their purchasing behavior.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:15:11] And the example I’d like to give best is just a phone, like the iPhone, you know, the perceived need is it’s a communication tool, right? It’s a way I can look up things on the internet, call my friends, text whatever. But it’s actually a security blanket for people. That’s their latent need. They feel a sense of connection and they need it. And when they don’t have it, it’s a problem. So, when people buy, you have to understand both the perceived and the latent needs when you’re looking at your customer profile.

Mike Blake: [00:15:43] Steve Jobs is so good at that, by the way. I mean, he was the Mozart of understanding that latent need, wasn’t he?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:15:50] He created a market, which is hard to do. He created several markets.

Mike Blake: [00:15:54] More than once.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:15:54] Yes, he created several markets. And so, yeah, he was the master at that for sure. Other elements are attitude. So, it’s the values and beliefs of the customer profile or the customer. Behaviors, which are use cases, meaning how they will consume the product or service and then, their purchase preferences, like what information? Do they need to understand what they’re buying? What channels are they going to find in order to be able to purchase it via online or store or in-office or somewhere else and how frequently they may purchase. So, if you understand all of those things in a data-driven way, you can actually put on a whiteboard, you know, with the customer in the center, all the different elements that influence their buying behavior and understand what your customer looks like.

Mike Blake: [00:16:48] Now, when you say data, that can scare some people. And it doesn’t even have that much to do about understanding how to do basic math, but data can also be very expensive, right? Some of the things you’re talking about on the surface sound like you’ve got to hire a marketing research firm to do surveys and focus groups and all those things can be very expensive. Is that true? Do you have to go that way or are there ways you can get data that is at least sufficient, where you’re not making multi-thousand-dollar investments in specialized studies?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:17:26] Sure. It depends on the scale and the size of the product or service that’s being implemented. There are a lot of resources that are available that don’t cost any money that are just on the net. PricewaterhouseCoopers has information. You look for companies that have traded and see what the profile of that competition looks like. There’s a lot of opportunity to find things on the net. At Georgia State where I teach, they’ve got a myriad of resources. You can find it through the SBA. There are a lot of different ways to do it.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:18:03] There certainly are paid resources where you can hire, you know, a professional firm that collects that information and does that all day and night and is an expert in that. And if you have the resources to do it, that might not be a bad thing. But ultimately, the data is not just looking up facts and figures. It’s actually engaging with prospective customers to get feedback on what their beliefs are and why they would buy something and what their feedback is. And there’s a term called ethnography. You ever heard of that term?

Mike Blake: [00:18:39] I have.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:18:40] There you go. Well, ethnography is direct observation and interviewing of potential customers, suppliers and partners, right? And if you are trying to get data or feedback from potential customers and you’re doing it on the phone or you’re doing it via email, you’re not going to get—the quality of the feedback you’re getting and the context of the feedback you’re getting isn’t going to be as good.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:19:09] And I can assure you that whether it is Procter and Gamble or McDonald’s or, you know, some of the other small to medium companies that I typically consult with or the students in my class, they get in front of their ideal client to be able to actually understand that feedback. And they draw on some other sources of information in order to understand the income brackets and things of that nature in order to do it. And they typically say you need 10 to 12 quality interviews or discovery sessions in order to develop a pattern or have enough of a sense. And certainly, you know, some companies go well beyond that.

Mike Blake: [00:19:55] Interesting. So, what you’re talking about resonates with a couple of things. One, Atlanta has an interesting technology market. You know, we’re not Silicon Valley, but we’re very deep in a few areas, right? And the venture market, in my view, has improved tremendously over the last 10 years or so. But one of the practices that is very much involved here, I think, more so than other places is something called customer discovery, where investors want entrepreneurs to have gone out and talked to lots of potential customers. In fact, in the Georgia Tech and Emory entrepreneurship programs, you cannot graduate without having actually gone out and talked to potential customers, even for a hypothetical venture. They make you develop that skill.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:20:49] I do that with my students, too.

Mike Blake: [00:20:50] You do, too.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:20:51] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:20:51] Okay. And what a valuable skill and valuable asset that is. And it’s interesting that that intersects with a recent experience of mine. In preparation for the strategy meeting that I described, I read twice Michael Porter’s book on competitive strategy. And Appendix B, I think, of that book is entirely dedicated to the practice of interviewing customers and developing customer profiles, which I did not expect. I didn’t think it would be that granular.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:21:24] It is. And the way you ask the questions is really important. As an example, you want them to be open ended and not be yes or no answers.

Mike Blake: [00:21:34] And I think it might have actually been the most useful part of the book I read. I’m so glad because normally, I’m so happy I got to the end of a book that I skipped the appendices. For whatever reason, I didn’t this time. And I’m really glad because that is so chock-full—because conducting a customer interview is not walk into an office and just start asking questions.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:21:58] Appendices are where you get most of your charts, right, Michael?

Mike Blake: [00:22:02] They are.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:22:03] There you go.

Mike Blake: [00:22:03] They are, yeah. Especially in academic papers, for sure. So, what are some signs that maybe you have a customer profile that’s not working?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:22:21] The signs that it’s not working is you’re not getting traction.

Mike Blake: [00:22:25] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:22:25] Right? So, if you have initial traction with innovative customers who can validate, you can solve their problem, then you know you probably have the right customer profile. And a lot of people don’t because they’re not data-driven or they’re too broad in their customer profile that they’re focused on. And so, you know, results speak. And there’s actually something called the law of diffusion of innovation. Long, interesting, impressive set of words that I believe in, but I haven’t put together, that kind of tells you where your tipping point is relating to having that kind of traction. And it’s why people accept new ideas.

Mike Blake: [00:23:09] I love that. So, like calculus in it.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:23:12] It does. It does.

Mike Blake: [00:23:12] When you work it through. So, you’re talking dirty to me now. But I think where I want to get to is I think executives and entrepreneurs sometimes fall into the trap of thinking that they’re failing to get traction not because they have the wrong customer profile, but because they are not executing approaching that customer profile well or correctly or maybe they don’t have enough resources, right?

Mike Blake: [00:23:42] So, theoretically, maybe you do have exactly the right customer profile, but the thought process goes, “You know, we know who our customer is, but we just don’t have the right salespeople. The salespeople aren’t doing their job. Marketing is not doing their job. We don’t have enough money to get in front of those customers”, et cetera. You’ve heard all these things before, right? And this is a hard question, but that’s what we’re about on this podcast. The hard question is how do you know if your failure to gain traction is in fact the result of poor execution versus having the poor, the incorrect foundational customer profile?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:24:21] You’re right. It is an excellent and complex question. And it could be something else, right? Your sales team might not be executing well. Even though you have the right customer profile or avatar, you might not be executing once you get the sale, which impacts your reputation and ability to sell. So, there are a lot of different aspects to it. And all you have to do is be able to measure with certain KPIs about each stage of that process to get the appropriate feedback.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:24:59] And certainly, if you’re not getting any inbound interest, if you’re not getting good feedback on what your product or service could be, if there’s not a problem that you’re solving, you’re not going to pass go. You’re not even going to get started. And then, there’s the question that you have to measure, is, okay, a sales cycle is a multi-stage process, right? You have to have marketing and good salespeople and a good value proposition and good references. And they all have to work together. But if you don’t have the right target, none of it matters.

Mike Blake: [00:25:30] And the main part of it goes back to what we just talked about a few minutes ago, which is maybe you just ask the question, “Why did I think I had the right customer profile? Did I do the work that you just talked about in terms of actually going out and talking to 10, 15 customers? And did I do so in kind of a rigorous way?” You revisit how you got to the customer profile.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:25:55] The first Inc. 500 company I was with, I joined in 1995 and we grew really quickly in a period of time and became an Inc. 500 company in 2001. And we didn’t have all these tools, a business model, canvasses and customer profiles and avatars and things like that. We just had good common sense to be able to see a need in the marketplace that we could solve, there were changes going on in the marketplace. Getting some customers who were lead innovative end users who were willing to give us feedback and also pay us for the service even though it wasn’t fully fleshed out yet.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:26:46] And so, in essence, we were doing those things in a less structured way. And it provided validation along the way. Now, there are amazing tools and methodologies that are used in corporations by consultants who understand this stuff. It’s taught in schools. And if you use it right and do the right due diligence, you’re reducing your risk. And being an entrepreneur or being somebody who’s an intrapreneur in a bigger company, who’s trying to target a new business, what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to peel the onion back and reduce the risk in each stage.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:27:26] And so, if your customer profile is right and you were talking about discovery that investors in Atlanta are looking for, if you’ve done that discovery correctly, you’re reducing the risk and you go on to the next stage in terms of—and if you’re looking for investment along the way, like beyond friends and family to angels and series A and series B, you have to have reached certain milestones in terms of revenue, customers, discovery that you’ve done in order to get to those platforms.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:27:58] And then, the best companies are ones that actually start with a narrow solution to a problem via a product or service and then, they build on it modularly. So, an example is like Salesforce. Salesforce started out with like a free type of app or free system, where you could manage certain aspects of your CRM, but then, they have higher level premium services that you can choose based upon the number of users or the sophistication that you want. But it’s built on the same chassis, just like an Infiniti is, you know, built on a Nissan chassis.

Mike Blake: [00:28:42] Now, let’s move up from the startup into maybe a more mature company. At some point, presumably somehow, whether they do it analytically or reluctant with, they had a customer profile match and a successful identification, can a customer profile change? Is it possible that, you know, once a company reaches a more mature stage, they see sales growth drop off or maybe even retrench? Is it something that executives need to look out for, as maybe your customer profile can change over time?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:29:18] It can almost change overnight. So, you really have to stay with the times. And the reason things change overnight is innovation, communication channels, time and social systems have all been compressed. And the communication channels have been compressed because of the internet. The social systems have been compressed because of social media. And time has been compressed because of technology. So, what happens is trends change and preferences change and you need to keep up with that. Some of the big trends are relating to demographics, millennials and baby boomers on both sides of the spectrum in terms of their needs and in the size of that demographic.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:30:08] Technology and regulation are all changing. So, an example of a trend that, you know, could change very quickly or has changed is people weren’t as concerned about their health. You know, they cared about their health, but they weren’t as concerned. And, you know, there’s a big push and it’s not so new anymore. But all of a sudden, things change when people really cared about organic and pure products and, you know, there are a lot of vegetarians and vegans. And I think, you know, Amazon purchased Whole Foods for a variety of reasons, including distribution. But one of the reasons was to reach that audience, which is growing.

Mike Blake: [00:30:49] You know, one of those areas where I’m seeing it, we’re recording on Valentine’s Day today, although this will be published probably closer to St. Patrick’s Day.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:30:57] Happy Valentine’s.

Mike Blake: [00:30:58] Happy Valentine’s Day and happy St. Patrick’s Day coming up and whatever else is coming up. But you know, one of the things I sort of had to do in order to purchase for my wife is she’s big into the fair-trade chocolate now, which is harder to get, right? Organic chocolates, not hard to get now. But then, you got to make sure that it’s fair trade, which is an up and coming trend.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:31:23] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:31:24] I’m not sure that’s overnight, but these customer profile things, I think, change the way a lot of things do. The change is very subtle for a long period of time. And then, it seems to sort of change overnight. Organic food was definitely like that. You know, this meat alternative, Beyond Meat and so forth, I think, looks like that. And fair trade may be the next thing which will delight me because I spent more time looking for fair trade chocolate than I think the whole of my Christmas shopping this year. So, it can’t happen fast enough.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:31:56] Did you find it?

Mike Blake: [00:31:57] I did eventually. Yes.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:31:58] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:31:58] I did. And in a nick of time because my wife is actually on—she and my children left on vacation today. So, I had to come through it last night and I did. It was a buzzer beater.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:32:08] Good for you.

Mike Blake: [00:32:11] We touched on this a little bit, but I want to come back to it because I think it’s important to hit. Companies can evolve into multiple customer profiles, too, right? It may not be that your customer profile is wrong, but you may need to add to it, correct?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:32:26] You do, but there’s a method that you need to evolve in order to do that.

Mike Blake: [00:32:33] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:32:34] And again, whether you’re in a startup or whether you’re an established firm, you don’t just all of a sudden cater to try to cater to everybody. And so, what you usually try and do and what we teach and what I work on with my clients is getting a beachhead strategy. So, it’s what’s a use case for a particular customer that you can focus on in that first year? Use the law of the diffusion of innovation, where you can actually get some market share and prove up and get some cash in the door.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:33:10] And then, you can grow from there to other use cases to other types of customers with other different profiles. And that could work. In the chocolate case, for instance, there are some people who eat chocolate because it’s a snack. There are some people who eat it because it’s healthy for them. They have these, you know, health bars now Clif Bars and other things. And some people want to give it as a gift, right? And then, there are different customer types along those lines depending upon their age bracket.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:33:42] So, you can’t be everything to everybody out of the gate, but if you focus on one of those uses and one of those age brackets to get started, to get traction, then you can leverage and go from there. And that’s the best way to do it. There’s a client I have in town that is a technology company that does app development and they do training. So, they’ll train people how to be app developers or to have the newest, latest and greatest to do it. And they also develop apps. They were trying to go out to both customers and the message got mixed and diluted.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:34:24] And so, they didn’t know, their customer base didn’t know what they really were and this company itself didn’t know where to really put its resources into because they thought that the growth area was the one that was the low-margin business, which isn’t necessarily a good play. But they thought that that was where they wanted to put their emphasis and they really had to pick and choose one. And when they did, which was, “We’re an app developer”, their business took off.

Mike Blake: [00:34:55] Now, when a customer profile changes, it can be an existential threat to the company if it comes as a surprise to you and you don’t act upon it, right? I mean, you know, Microsoft was putting a lot of trouble because, you know, Steve Ballmer just blew it on mobile. And it caused them a lot of problems, I would argue Major League Baseball has some issues because their customer profile is primarily White and older. And that’s not the way the demographics of the country are currently going. That’s something they’ve got to figure out. Is customer profile so important that if it changes on you, do you agree that it actually could be a company killer?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:35:43] No doubt.

Mike Blake: [00:35:44] And if so, once you make that discovery, let’s say you’re kind of late to the game, say, “Crap. My customers just flat out changed. They don’t want a beef anymore. They want to eat something that’s not beef”, right? But all I do is I raise cattle, right? How do you go about kind of a crash course, if you will, to basically kind of save the company if you’re late to the game and you make that realization or by that point, is it already too late?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:36:20] The answer is it depends.

Mike Blake: [00:36:22] Okay. Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:36:22] Right?

Mike Blake: [00:36:22] I figured.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:36:22] So, you’re talking about baseball. I’m a big baseball fan. Grew up as a stats guy and loved baseball. And you saw what happened here in Atlanta. Atlanta saw that the demographics were changing and they actually moved their stadium to where the demographics were more applicable to them.

Mike Blake: [00:36:39] Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:36:39] Now, not everybody can pick up and change like that. That was an expensive proposition for them, but it seems to have paid off. But for other businesses, you want to be in the growth area, not the mature area of a business. And so, if you’re trying to make a pivot, you can certainly make that pivot, but you don’t want to change your business. You want to find customers that are a better fit for what you have. And so, if it’s a new business, hopefully, you can do it right the first time and adjust along the way.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:37:16] But if it’s an existing business, find new customers that are a better or closer fit. And the reason, primarily, is you’ve got all this investment and knowledge in your existing business, don’t try to be something that you’re not just because you’re trying to chase something, because you’re not going to have the knowledge or the relationships or the understanding to be able to actually solve that problem. So, find a problem based upon where you are and what you have and you can make subtle adjustments to it, but don’t try to be something that you’re not all of a sudden.

Mike Blake: [00:37:48] So, interesting. What I take away from that is one, option for a company that finds that their customer profile has shifted and maybe their business can’t necessarily shift with it as easily. Let’s take the beef example. All right. Maybe that means you get out of mass-market beef, but then, you switch to a niche market of organic or Kobe steaks or something that is lower volume, but higher margin, something like that as, you know, a ham-handed example.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:38:20] Sure. You know, if you’re Burger King, which came out with, I guess, the Impossible Burger first and was the one that kind of made the name, their distribution channels and the way that they serve their customer didn’t change. So, they had a lot of things in place. All they had to do was get the raw product to be able to serve it. Most other customers don’t, you know, have a bigger change than that.

Mike Blake: [00:38:46] I’m going to be really interested to see how Burger King does with that, because I actually like an Impossible Burger, but I’m not sure what the use case is because if you bother to look at the nutritional information, it’s for the most part unhealthy for you in a different way than conventional beef.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:39:06] It’s still just caloric, is it?

Mike Blake: [00:39:08] It is just as caloric. It is a lot less cholesterol, but it is massively higher in sodium, right? So, it’s a different kind of-

Andy Goldstrom: [00:39:17] So, we talked about latent needs.

Mike Blake: [00:39:19] Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:39:22] People who care about animals and don’t want—you know, some people are vegetarians because it’s for their health, but some of it don’t want animals to be killed.

Mike Blake: [00:39:31] And also environmental, right? We’re now hearing that-

Andy Goldstrom: [00:39:33] So, it’s an environmental thing so that’s serving a latent need that they’re trying to cater to as opposed to just people who just want to eat supposedly healthier.

Mike Blake: [00:39:42] Right. But I don’t see that that in their commercials yet, right? Maybe that’s their next phase. Right now, it’s, “Hey, this is just as good as any other Whopper, so you might as well have one.” But I don’t see the—I guess they’re just saying, “Well, if you’re just inclined to eat vegetarian, anyway, here it is.”

Andy Goldstrom: [00:40:02] Businesses don’t typically promote latent needs, but they need to understand them in order to capture the business.

Mike Blake: [00:40:11] Interesting. So, I’m being blatantly unfair, by the way. This is off-the-cuff questions for Andy. I’m asking to analyze a strategy of a multinational corporation real time. So-

Andy Goldstrom: [00:40:23] And I haven’t had an Impossible Burger yet, but I’ve heard it’s good.

Mike Blake: [00:40:28] Now, I’m getting hungry. So, how long do you think it takes to develop or maybe redevelop a customer profile?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:40:39] Depends on the size.

Mike Blake: [00:40:40] Does it have to take years?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:40:41] No, not if it’s done right.

Mike Blake: [00:40:44] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:40:44] So, you know, in my classroom, we’ve got people, young students, some of them are as old as 27, 28 because they’ve worked full time and they’re going back to school or, you know—but some of them are 18, 19, 20 years old who actually go through what we’re doing and are actually able to launch a business that I stay in touch with them. And they’ve actually launched fruitful businesses. One is launching a supplement product for gamers.

Mike Blake: [00:41:21] Okay.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:41:21] That’s specific to gamers. There’s another one that has an app that actually connects people to hold them accountable at the student level, where when it comes to health or getting somebody who can study with you or go to the gym. And they went through a process over several weeks as opposed to months and years to actually validate that that used the right tools or methodologies and did that.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:41:46] And when I work with my clients, it’s the same kind of thing. It doesn’t require push—you know, you don’t have to be Sisyphus. We’re not trying to push the boulder up the hill. You really can do it relatively quickly. And obviously, if you’re in a larger corporation, there are more stakeholders to please. That doesn’t mean the work needs to take longer. It just means that there are more stakeholders who you need buy-in from.

Mike Blake: [00:42:12] And it’s worth emphasizing. You have students that are doing this.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:42:15] I have students that are doing this and doing it well. And some of them, it’s just a practical exercise in class that instead of it just being a textbook kind of thing, which makes it more real, but some of them are actually pursuing these business opportunities and have been successful at it, believe it or not. And it’s exciting. And then, what I do with my clients, you know, it’s just as exciting because frankly, there’s more at stake.

Mike Blake: [00:42:46] Yeah.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:42:46] You know, they have families to feed. They have house, you know, mortgages. And they don’t have unlimited resources in terms of money or time or cash. And so, making the right choices and the right decisions along the customer profile route or how they manage their money or how they operate as they grow is really important. And I take a lot of pride in how I work with customers to do that.

Mike Blake: [00:43:11] And we are running out of time, so we’re going to have to wrap it up. This is a topic that, you know, probably deserves a lot more treatment than we’re able to give it in the span of one episode. But if people want to contact you to learn more about this topic, can they do so? And if so, what’s the best way to do it?

Andy Goldstrom: [00:43:28] Sure. Well, Michael, thanks for your time. I hope, you know, we covered enough, that people that were listening actually understand how important it is. And maybe it piques their interest or reinforces what they’re doing correctly or makes them think a little bit harder about what they need to do in order to really hone in on, you know, who they’re approaching and how they’re marketing their services or products.

Andy Goldstrom: [00:43:52] I can be reached at midcourseadvisors.com. My company is named Midcourse because it’s kind of the mid-course of a journey of a company, where adjustments need to be made. And my email address is agoldstrom@midcourseadvisors.com. And my phone number 770-633-2260. And you can find me on LinkedIn. And be happy to talk to anybody, to share, to learn about their perspectives and share any background I have.

Mike Blake: [00:44:19] Well, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Andy Goldstrom so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 54: Should I Fire My Attorney? – An Interview with Jeff Berman, Berman Fink Van Horn, PC

March 5, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 54: Should I Fire My Attorney? – An Interview with Jeff Berman, Berman Fink Van Horn, PC

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 54: Should I Fire My Attorney? – An Interview with Jeff Berman, Berman Fink Van Horn, PC

“Should I fire my attorney?” is a question a lot of business clients consider, particularly in emotionally-charged situations such as litigation. “Decision Vision” host Mike Blake explores different aspects of this question with veteran business attorney Jeff Berman of Berman Fink Van Horn PC. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Jeff Berman, Berman Fink Van Horn, PC

Berman Fink Van Horn is a full-service law firm that provides legal services to a diverse group of clients in the areas of business and real estate litigation; non-compete and trade secrets; mergers, acquisitions and corporate finance; labor and employment; banking & creditors’ rights; commercial real estate; and general legal services for mid-market companies, family-owned businesses and entrepreneurial/start-up endeavors. Their attorneys take great pride in delivering results-driven, high quality experience based on knowledge, expertise and a personal touch unique to Berman Fink Van Horn.

A Shareholder at Berman Fink Van Horn, Jeff Berman leads the firm’s corporate and business practice. In addition to day-to-day business matters, this practice includes mergers and acquisitions for middle market companies, employment agreements, succession and estate planning for business owners, commercial real estate and contracts and agreements of all kinds. In the community, Jeff serves on the Jewish HomeLife Board of Directors and as Chair of the Business and Strategic Planning Committee. He is a Georgia native, having grown up in Augusta. Jeff graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Emory University School of Law.

For more information, go to the firm’s website.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

**Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”**

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions, brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:20] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owner’s or executive’s perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:40] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a Director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we are recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:04] So, today, we’re going to talk a little bit about a somewhat contentious topic, which is, should I fire my lawyer? And I want to address this topic because as a business advisor, I’m asked to frankly opine on whether or not a client is getting good representation from their lawyer and maybe why that is. And now, I’m not an attorney. I don’t opine on matters of law. I have no idea if somebody is getting good legal advice or not. But I think what we’re going to find is that the legal advice itself is a fraction of what goes into a constructive or a non-constructive client-lawyer relationship.

Mike Blake: [00:02:04] And I like this topic because I think as a service provider myself, with some of our clients, we do go through our ups and downs. Sometimes, it’s something that I wish I would have done differently. Sometimes, it’s really nobody’s fault of their own. And sometimes, you find that maybe that isn’t a relationship that’s working, and it really is best for both parties to kind of go their separate ways. And in other cases, it’s actually an opportunity to kind of strengthen the relationship.

Mike Blake: [00:02:40] But a lawyer, legal counsel is one of the most important and intimate relationships you can have in business. I think that, particularly, in United States, because we have such a highly developed legal culture and the nature of a lawyer as a business advisor I think is as strong here as it is in any place in the world. And it’s really hard to do business well and the long term if you don’t have great legal advice. And if you’re really not getting the kind of relationship that you want, then maybe you should think about changing.

Mike Blake: [00:03:15] But I think the part where I caution my clients on making a change is understand what is it exactly that you’re unhappy about, right? Understand what is it that that your legal counsel can reasonably impact versus maybe they’re getting you the best out of a suboptimal situation. And in fairness, in about a month or so, we’ll record a podcast, and should I fire my CPA, too. So, this is not taking a shot at lawyers.

Mike Blake: [00:03:50] It’s really trying to walk through what I think is a healthy process that when you have people in your circle who are trusted advisors, I think it is critical that, every once in a while, you take a step back, and you reassess, “Is that trusted advisor relationship working as well for me as it can and should? And if it’s not, what is the remedy? Is the remedy to, then, make the relationship better or is the remedy to terminate the relationship and do something else?” But spoiler alert, it’s not, “I’m pissed off today. And so, I’m just going to fire everybody and move on.” That’s usually not the right—sometimes, it’s the right answer but, usually, it’s not. And we’re going to kind of walk through that today.

Mike Blake: [00:04:41] And joining us today to talk about this topic is my pal, Jeff Berman, who’s a partner and co-founder of Berman Fink Van Horn. Berman Fink Van Horn is a full-service law firm that provides legal services to a diverse group of clients in the areas of business and real estate litigation, non-compete agreements and trade secrets, mergers, acquisitions and corporate finance, labor and employment, banking and creditors rights, commercial real estate and general legal services for mid-market companies, family-owned businesses and entrepreneurial startup endeavors. Their attorneys take great pride in delivering results-driven, high-quality experience based on knowledge, expertise and a personal touch unique to Berman Fink Van Horn.

Mike Blake: [00:05:24] A shareholder at Berman Fink Van Horn, Jeff leads the firm’s corporate and business practice. In addition to day-to-day business matters, the practice includes mergers and acquisitions for middle-market companies, employment agreements, succession and estate planning for business owners, commercial real estate and contracts and agreements of all kinds. In the community, Jeff serves on the Jewish HomeLife Board of Directors and is Chair of the Business Strategic Planning Committee. He’s a Georgia native, having grown up in Augusta, Georgia, graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Emory University School of Law. Jeff Berman, thank you for coming to the program.

Jeff Berman: [00:05:59] My pleasure. Thank you, Michael, for having me.

Mike Blake: [00:06:01] And really thank you because I think it’s brave to talk about this topic. And frankly, that’s why I reached out to you because I don’t think everybody would have the courage to talk about this this topic. Because it is sensitive and it requires, I think, vulnerability and introspection and self-reflection to some extent. Because I won’t put words in your mouth, but I’ll put myself up out there, you know, not every client relationship I’ve had in my career has lasted forever and has been happily ever after. And sometimes, it’s appropriate for that relationship to end.

Mike Blake: [00:06:43] But there are a lot more people, frankly, who have legal counsel in their circle than some idiot valuation guy like me. And so, I think there’s a much wider appeal to this discussion. So, again, kudos to you for being willing to address it, though I’m not at all surprised. So, let me dive right into it. You know, how often do clients fire their lawyers? Is that a fairly common occurrence? Is that rare? Is it all over the board? What’s your experience in that regard?

Jeff Berman: [00:07:13] I think my experience and I think it’s different from, say, a litigation practice, a lawyer that practices litigation and a lawyer that’s in a transactional corporate practice, which is what I’m in. And I think a lot of it depends upon the type of practice. For instance, a lawyer that handles divorces. Those lawyers are probably attuned to people are going to fire them because people do not like their divorce lawyers.

Mike Blake: [00:07:46] And talking about an emotionally-charged situation anywhere where you’re probably walking in mad.

Jeff Berman: [00:07:50] Correct. I’ve had family lawyers, divorce lawyers tell me that they are reluctant to even referred their clients to, say, a financial adviser because by the time the relationship between that divorce lawyer and their client end, the client hates the lawyer. So, therefore, they’re going to hate the financial advisers. So, they know, going in, there’s a lot of risk. PI lawyers, probably a high-

Mike Blake: [00:08:17] Personal injury.

Jeff Berman: [00:08:17] Yeah, personal injury lawyers probably a high risk also. Generally, though, people do fire their lawyers. And as a lawyer and I know we’ll talk about as we go on today, that’s fraught with a lot of anxiety. And many times, it’s fraught with making a mistake. So, I know as we go on, we’ll delve into that a little bit more. It does happen and probably, it happens pretty frequently. We’re fortunate in my firm that it doesn’t happen a whole lot.

Mike Blake: [00:08:54] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:08:54] And I think it’s the way we deal with clients that prevents it from happening with us.

Mike Blake: [00:09:01] Yeah. And sometimes, this is not necessarily something—the relationship goes both ways necessarily and interestingly, I think to this day, our most popular podcast is on the topic, should I fire a client? And that was the second one that we did. And that one just sort of blew up and put us on the map. I did not think it would have been that popular, but it was. But, you know, sometimes, I think lawyers do fire their clients as well, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:09:27] Absolutely. When I was very early in my practice, n older attorney said to me, “Jeff, don’t take every client that walks in the door.” And that is advice to live by. Most law firms should have engagement letters. And those engagement letters typically would explain the reasons why a lawyer may terminate the relationship. For instance, our engagement letter says that if a client insists upon us presenting a claim or a defense that isn’t warranted by law, and we don’t think there’s a reasonable expectation that the law could change. That’s one reason we would fire a client.

Jeff Berman: [00:10:13] If the client wanted us to pursue some illegal activity, that would be a reason we would say we need to terminate this relationship. If the client doesn’t pay us, that’s a big one, of course. We are a business and that’s how we earn our living. But if a client doesn’t pay us, that is grounds for us to terminate our relationship. And generally, if the client just fails to cooperate. If we need to have a conversation about a particular matter and we need to have it today or tomorrow and the client just disappears, we’re not going to be able to provide the service the client wants. They’re going to be unhappy. That’s a reason to terminate a relationship.

Mike Blake: [00:10:56] In my own experience, one thing, I think, at which I have improved, I’m certainly not perfect, now, I like to think it’s one of the benefits of aging and having gray hair and two arthritic ankles is, I’ve learned when to fire clients as well, and walk away from clients. And doesn’t mean that they’re bad people, but one thing I’ve observed in my life, in my career is that I can tell you the letter, every client that I regretted taking, there’s not a single client I can identify that I regretted walking away from.

Jeff Berman: [00:11:36] Agreed.

Mike Blake: [00:11:37] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:11:37] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:11:37] There wasn’t, “Why did I do that?” Right? But every time I’ve walked away from one, like yeah, that was the right decision.

Jeff Berman: [00:11:45] And we still talk about those type of clients all the time in our office as a learning experience. This was a reason it didn’t work. Avoid this in the future.

Mike Blake: [00:11:53] The cautionary tales. Not for us, just for us, our partners and our younger associates, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:11:57] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:11:57] “Don’t do it the way that I did it.”

Jeff Berman: [00:11:59] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:12:00] So, you know, I hadn’t thought of this, but to me, it’s intuitively right that certain kinds of law, I think, are more prone to changing legal counsel. And probably, the more emotionally-charged the matter is, the more likely it is, I guess, you’re going to change, which implies to me that the decision to change legal counsel is largely or a very heavily emotionally-charged decision.

Jeff Berman: [00:12:23] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:12:23] Is that fair?

Jeff Berman: [00:12:24] I think yes.

Mike Blake: [00:12:25] And so, is emotion a big driver then behind that decision? And if so, what are the emotions you think that kind of take charge or lead that decision process?

Jeff Berman: [00:12:39] I think that a lot of lawyers or if clients are going to leave lawyers, there’s probably a litany of reasons. And emotion is a very big driver in that. It’s important that a lawyer communicates with their client. And communication is certainly sending emails, sending text, making phone calls when there’s something really important. You don’t want to send a client a really important matter or issue by email, call them.

Jeff Berman: [00:13:12] Communication is also, you want that client to be involved in decisions. You want the client to be engaged. You want them to be involved in their case. And if they’re not, they’re going to drift away. In litigation, again, to separate that from, say, a transactional practice, in litigation, if a matter is in court and a motion is lost, something that the client is asking the court to do, and the court disagrees, clients take that hard. And emotionally, they are very unhappy.

Jeff Berman: [00:13:50] If the attorney had communicated, had explained the risk, had explained that they could lose, but it’s worth the risk, then the client is much more likely to stay. I think clients hate to bring up billing again, but billing is one of those reasons that clients may leave. They may not understand clearly the billing process. So, it’s incumbent upon the lawyer to explain that early, early, early in the process. And for instance, in addition, at at our firm, our bills are extremely detailed. We believe clients pay more attention to our bill than they made to anything else they get from our law firm.

Mike Blake: [00:14:31] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:14:31] And if you just simply say work performed $X, that doesn’t tell them what you’re doing. So, that’s a form of communication for us. Also, if a lawyer is unprofessional, the lawyer doesn’t show up on time for a meeting, doesn’t appear to be prepared, that may be grounds to at least start thinking about, “I may need another lawyer.” Sometimes, clients don’t agree with how a matter is being handled. And again, you want to communicate with your client, explain why. But if the client’s unhappy, then they may well terminate the relationship. If the lawyer seems incompetent and sometimes, that’s difficult for a client to tell because we’re the lawyers, they’re not. They’re seeking advice from us.

Jeff Berman: [00:14:31] And if you’re talking to your lawyer and that lawyer just does not have answers to probably issues that you would think they should, then maybe they’re not the right lawyer. And that should be a reason to consider moving on to another attorney. And maybe finally, just incompatible styles. Some lawyers are bulldogs, some lawyers are not. That doesn’t make one better than the other. But if you’re a client that want somebody just to go beat the other side over the head and your client’s not that bulldog, it’s a relationship that’s prone to be unsuccessful. So, that would be a reason, I think, that a client would move on to another to another lawyer.

Mike Blake: [00:16:03] Let me sink my teeth in that last one a bit because I think that’s really interesting. I don’t do litigation. I’m not a particularly good or enthusiastic expert witness. But I know enough about the process. I can talk about it intelligently. And when I’m asked for a referral to a litigation attorney, I often will counsel my clients to hire somebody that is the direct opposite of who they are emotionally, right? In other words, if I have a client who I sense is a passive type that I think has a bias towards conciliation, then I think a more aggressive attorney serves them well because that attorney’s going to counterbalance that and make sure they’re not leaving opportunities on the table that they should be more aggressive in pursuing.

Mike Blake: [00:16:03] Conversely, if I have somebody that I know is loaded for bear and they’re very combative and they just want to run to the courtroom, I tend to refer to them an attorney that I know is going to oppose them, I think, you know, that likes to negotiate, that likes to try to settle things and find that middle ground where appropriate to help manage expectations, for example, that you’re not going to have two people charging in, thinking they got a slam-dunk case when, in fact, that they don’t. I’m curious what you think about that about that mindset.

Jeff Berman: [00:17:34] Michael, I know that the advice you’re suggesting is well-meaning, but I tend to disagree with it.

Mike Blake: [00:17:42] Good.

Jeff Berman: [00:17:43] I think that if a client is looking for someone to just pound away and be extremely aggressive, if you pair that client with a more reasonable attorney, reasonable is probably not the best word, but calmer, more deliberate attorney, that client’s going to get incredibly frustrated. It happens. I’ve seen it. Likewise, if you are a client that is calm, is thoughtful, wants to be sure they’re making the right decision and wants a lot of interaction with the lawyer and explanations on why things are being done the way they are, I think that that client will work better with the lawyer that provides that kind of service. Litigation is incredibly stressful for everybody, including the lawyers.

Mike Blake: [00:18:41] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:18:41] And if that relationship is not a relationship that you can sit down and have a beer with the person, you talk through the issues, it’s just not going to be a good relationship.

Mike Blake: [00:18:54] Interesting. Okay. So, I’m going to leave that there. I’m going to go back and process that.

Jeff Berman: [00:19:01] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:19:03] One other thing that you brought up that I think is important and underrated is on billing, right? Yeah. I think my experience is that most clients are perfectly willing to pay for value, but they would like some transparency in it. And I’m delighted to hear that it sounds like you tend to be on the side of being overly detailed rather than undetailed in your billing. Is that a fair characterization?

Jeff Berman: [00:19:29] Very fair, yes.

Mike Blake: [00:19:30] And I discovered only recently in our firm, we’re the exact opposite. You know, when we sent bills out, I don’t always see kind of the final version as it goes out. I only learned that we don’t send out a lot of detail, which we are now going to fix.

Jeff Berman: [00:19:48] Good. Good.

Mike Blake: [00:19:48] Because I really don’t like that. I’m candidly surprised that we haven’t heard more objections from our clients over that, right? Even when we have a fixed fee, is mostly my model, I still think it’s important that the client understand kind of, you know, there was time spent and where was that spent and who spent it, right? I just think that’s a reasonable thing for a client to expect. And lack of transparency leads to lack of trust, which lets imaginations run wild, which then creates other problems in the relationship.

Jeff Berman: [00:20:19] And again, detailed bills also allow a client to see exactly what is going on so that it’s just another way to communicate with the client as to what’s going on in the case.

Mike Blake: [00:20:33] So, lawyers aren’t cheap, for the most part.

Jeff Berman: [00:20:37] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:20:38] And most CPAs are not cheap either. Is it unreasonable to demand perfection?

Jeff Berman: [00:20:44] That’s a tough question to answer. I would start the answer by, to a client, what is perfection? Is perfection in a transaction asking in an employment agreement if you’re going to be the employee to get two years severance? And as a lawyer, you know, the employer is not going to give two years severance. If the client wants that and that’s perfection to them, then I’m not going to provide perfection because I can estimate that the employer’s not going to give that.

Jeff Berman: [00:21:24] So, understanding from the client what they think is perfection is important. On the litigation side, if you have a case and there are certain amount of damages that you believe you’re entitled to, and at the end of the day, you don’t get that, is that a failure of perfection or is it just a matter of the facts that you came to the lawyer with would not allow for the result exactly like you wanted? So, yes, you want a lawyer to do a really good job for you. And I think that’s the best we can provide. To anticipate perfection is going to lead you to being disappointed.

Mike Blake: [00:22:13] So, I want to expand upon that a little bit, especially in litigation. You know, I believe and please tell me if I’m wrong, you know, you can try a great case and still come up short.

Jeff Berman: [00:22:27] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:22:28] Because you don’t control all of the outcomes, right? Even assuming for the moment, the client gives you everything you need, which isn’t always the case, but assuming the client even gives you everything that you need, judges make mistakes, juries make mistakes. I believe, anyway, you may not want to go on record saying that, but I firmly believe judges and juries make mistakes. I think they do it. I think they do it a lot because they’re human beings.

Jeff Berman: [00:22:53] And that’s why we have appeals courts. We have a process that if a mistake is made or perceived mistake, that there is a higher court typically that can review it.

Mike Blake: [00:23:05] Right. But it’s, you know, most lawyers don’t exist in a world in which they control every avenue, right? Even state lawyers don’t control everything. There’s always a probate court. There’s an unknown error, there’s something, there’s some variable out there that, you know, is just not reasonably foreseeable by any practitioner, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:23:30] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:23:30] And so, I think the way you responded to this question is really interesting because it’s really about understanding what is the standard of perfection, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:23:40] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:23:41] And I guess what we’re really getting to is, the standard of perfection is, are you doing your best? Do you have a command of the facts and the law and have the capacity to put in the mental energy and focus required to be that vigorous advocate for your client?

Jeff Berman: [00:24:03] Correct. And it’s also, you need to set reasonable expectations for your client.

Mike Blake: [00:24:09] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:24:09] And as long as you’re setting reasonable expectations and you can come close to those reasonable expectations, then arguably, that’s perfection.

Mike Blake: [00:24:21] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:24:21] You’ve done what you said you could do and if you don’t accomplish it, as long as the client understands, you know, you’ve done the best you could.

Mike Blake: [00:24:32] So, if somebody decides they do want to make a change, what are they facing? What is the to-do list or the process look like? And I guess it probably differs, I guess, in the nature of the law that you’re practicing. So, answer this however you feel the most comfortable.

Jeff Berman: [00:24:48] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:24:49] But what’s involved in changing legal counsel?

Jeff Berman: [00:24:51] It is very different from, say, a transactional lawyer, a corporate lawyer and a litigation lawyer or dealing with a litigation matter. A transaction lawyer can be fired on the spot and the client can walk in or send an email or text and say, “You’re fired.” And that’s the end of the relationship. You have to deal with, how do you move the file to a new attorney? But that, again, can be a pretty simple process. From the litigation side, it is much more cumbersome.

Jeff Berman: [00:25:25] From the litigation side, the attorney has to actually file something to withdraw. And that would be just the attorney wanting to withdraw. The client and the attorney could agree to a withdrawal. In both cases, a court has to approve it. Sometimes, new counsel and the client would enter what’s called a notice of appearance, where the lawyer is saying, “I am stepping in now to replace another lawyer.” So, in the litigation setting, it’s more cumbersome. For lawyers, they do it. But it’s still more steps. Whereas again, on the transactional side, it’s very easy to accomplish. The results of that change, you know, are not as simple as the actual change itself.

Mike Blake: [00:26:19] Right. Well, let’s talk about the transaction side here because that’s the area, I guess, where I feel most comfortable talking about. And I can appreciate, you know, on one level, you can sort of change attorneys and you don’t need anybody’s court permission, right? Pay the outstanding invoice. I imagine there’s some process that maybe is governed by bar ethics, I guess, in terms of turning over work files and doing so in a prompt fashion, I guess, you can comment on that. But even that isn’t necessarily costless. If you’re involved in a transaction, let’s say, and, you know, if I’m negotiating a deal with a party and then, midway through, the party changes attorneys, that can be pretty jarring to the discussion as well, can’t it?

Jeff Berman: [00:27:07] It can be very jarring. And you mentioned about at the termination of a relationship, paying fees and/or getting the file transferred. Ethically, we need to turn over the file. We can also say, “Wait a minute, we’re going to hold the file until you pay us.”

Mike Blake: [00:27:27] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:27:27] The standard is if we are really negatively affecting the client by not turning over the file, whether we’ve been paid or not, that’s really the standard. And if we are going to be negatively impacting the client, then we need to go ahead and turn the file over and hopefully get paid later. Changing lawyers in mid-course, and I will talk as you want to in a transaction setting, I think the first thing that would say to me, if the other side changes lawyers in the middle is something’s wrong with that client or something is going on between the client and the attorney. The client may be being very unreasonable.

Mike Blake: [00:28:12] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:28:12] So, that’s not a good look. Also, once you’ve got an attorney that’s got that institutional knowledge and ideally knows all of the facts because they’ve been involved from the beginning, a new attorney in the matter, I believe, is just going to have a really difficult time catching up with all the nuances. And plus, the cost for that attorney to catch up to those nuances is going to be very expensive. So, you are probably not doubling the fees you would have paid all in, but you’re certainly increasing them by 30% to 50%. So, there are those risks. It’s the appearance and the cost factor. And at the end of the day, will you get the result you want potentially because something gets missed, not purposefully, but just by virtue of the change.

Mike Blake: [00:29:07] So, yeah, I can imagine that as an attorney trying to jump in mid-deal, it may be hard to find attorneys that would even be willing to take the case. I guess depends on how busy they are, frankly, right? But you’re really asking somebody to jump on a treadmill going full speed from a dead stop.

Jeff Berman: [00:29:27] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:29:27] And that’s hard.

Jeff Berman: [00:29:28] It’s very hard and they’re different places.

Mike Blake: [00:29:31] And there’s risk in that, too, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:29:33] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:29:33] It’s not just about not looking incompetent, but like jumping on a treadmill, you get that wrong, next thing you know, you got a busted ankle.

Jeff Berman: [00:29:42] Absolutely. There may be something you didn’t know that you missed in the final document or you know, the question is always, are you taking on exposure somehow because the prior lawyer didn’t do something and you didn’t know that it should or should not have been done? So, are you taking on risk that the prior counsel didn’t do the job that they should have done? So, that’s always a risk also by taking the case in the middle.

Mike Blake: [00:30:13] And that’s something I hear a lot. When lawyers are approached about taking a case, taking some sort of matter midstream like that is, you know, they’re often reluctant because what don’t I know, especially, you know, the legal field, particularly if it’s local, tends to be a small world, right? So, you have a sense as to who you think the good attorneys are and the not-as-good attorneys are, at least the ones you kind of think, you know, “I wouldn’t necessarily practice law in that way.” We’ll just leave it at that, right? And in particular, if they fire somebody that you think is a pretty good attorney and now, they’re coming to you thinking they got a different result, it may be difficult to hire somebody as good a caliber as what they had going in, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:31:03] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:31:04] Because, you know, there’s no law that says you have to take the case.

Jeff Berman: [00:31:08] And I think it’s very difficult, ultimately, for a client to truly appreciate the quality of an attorney. They’re just so many nuances that we have to deal with and so much gray area. And some attorneys may handle it one way, some attorneys may handle it another. And it doesn’t make it right or wrong, but, you know, I look at clients sometimes and think, do you really understand what we’re talking about here? Because it’s complicated.

Mike Blake: [00:31:39] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:31:39] And there may been law school classes that taught about that particular subject, in here, the clients being asked to grasp it in 15 minutes. So, it’s hard. It’s very hard. And I think, you know, dangerous isn’t the right word when you’re changing attorneys, but there is certainly risk involved.

Mike Blake: [00:32:01] You definitely have to sort of pick your way around the landmines for sure, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:32:04] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:32:04] And I think in that way, your profession and mine are actually quite similar because they’re highly technical. In most cases, we are working with clients that would find it very hard independently to evaluate the strength of our work. And often, the only objective in their mind, view in terms of how good a job we’re doing, is, are we meeting their expectations on the way in?

Jeff Berman: [00:32:34] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:32:35] But, you know, things change. And in my world, you know, I can tell you right now, a client’s going to be happy if I determine or appraise a company at roughly the number they thought I was going in, which when that happens, terrifies me, right? Because it ought to be at least a little bit different, right? And if it’s not the number they thought, then I’m just a hack, right? And it takes a little bit of work to kind of get through that. And so, maybe I’m a hack, but let’s just assume I’m not for a minute and kind of walk through kind of what we did. I think the law sort of works that way, too, because, again, it’s not all up to you. Sometimes, you have to work within a set of constraints that may or may not provide that straight and clear path to the desired result, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:33:25] And things are in negotiation.

Mike Blake: [00:33:27] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:33:27] Assuming you’ve got competent counsel on the other side, a client that I’m representing is not going to get everything they want. It’s just a given. So, it’s a negotiation. Again, setting client expectations is key. One thing I need to point out that I think we missed or not, didn’t point out, in terms of changing lawyers, it’s different if you are a company. If a company engages a lawyer and then, that company terminates the lawyer, particularly in litigation, a company cannot represent itself. Like an individual can be pro se. They could go into court and not have an attorney. A corporation, a company has to have an attorney. That’s just one of the rules.

Mike Blake: [00:34:18] Okay. I didn’t know that.

Jeff Berman: [00:34:20] So, anybody listening that is thinking of changing an attorney and you are part of a company that’s doing that, you need to have another lawyer ready to go immediately.

Mike Blake: [00:34:30] So, your in-house counsel cannot represent you.

Jeff Berman: [00:34:32] Correct. You have to have an attorney, an outside counsel who is performing the legal services for you.

Mike Blake: [00:34:39] Okay. Interesting. So, here’s another question. It’s not on the script, but I think it’s important. As new counsel coming in, whether it’s litigation or some other matter, A, are you allowed to talk to the prior counsel? Are they allowed to talk to you? And if so, is that something that you would do as the new attorney, is your due diligence as to whether or not you’d want to take on that case?

Jeff Berman: [00:35:06] Absolutely. And I would hope that the client would approve that. And I think it really comes down to, will the client authorize prior counsel to talk? That’s really the way that it would need to proceed. And if for no other reason than cost savings, I can sit and review a 60-page purchase and sale agreement, I can talk to the first lawyer and that lawyer can likely help me understand what’s in those 60 pages a lot quicker than I can pick it up by reading those 60 pages. Still need to read them, but if I’ve got the insight prior to reading it, it will help me and ultimately help the client and also save costs. So, I would hope that a client would say, “Yes, you can talk to the prior attorney.”

Mike Blake: [00:35:59] Now-

Jeff Berman: [00:36:01] If you say no, it’s kind of a red flag. If the client says no, it’s kind of a red flag also. What’s that attorney going to say?

Mike Blake: [00:36:08] Well, yeah. And that’s what I wanted to get in because you answered that question a little bit differently than I thought you would, but it’s still a good answer. But I’ll ask it differently because of another piece of information I want to tease out. If I was the potential new attorney coming in on the matter, before I took on the case, I would just want to talk to the attorney and say, “Why didn’t that relationship work out?” Right? “Is this person a lunatic?” Maybe it’s something benign, maybe that you suddenly discovered that you had a conflict or for whatever reason. But I would think, if you can, you’d want to learn that initially to get that post-mortem, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:36:49] I think you could. You can get high-level information like you’ve described. Is that person a lunatic or not? But in terms of anything substantive, I think you really need the client’s permission for that to happen.

Mike Blake: [00:37:03] But would you ask for that permission-

Jeff Berman: [00:37:06] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:37:07] … even before you’re engaged to kind of vet that, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:37:10] Yes. Yeah. Just part of our due diligence on whether we should take that client or not.

Mike Blake: [00:37:16] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:37:16] And I mentioned due diligence. I would encourage clients to do due diligence on their lawyers.

Mike Blake: [00:37:24] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:37:24] You know, whether that’s talking to other people, whether that’s talking to other lawyers, whether that’s going online and searching. One of my pet peeves, though, is even though you can search online and there are all kinds of awards that lawyers seem to have, I’m not sure those awards are always truly indicative of the legal competence of the lawyer. That’s probably speaking out of school a little bit. Not many lawyers would like to hear that. But that’s the way I’d look at it. So, it’s really doing your due diligence, sitting down, talking with the attorney, making sure that it is a good relationship, that it’s a person you can get along with because it’s a very close relationship. And if you can’t get along with each other, that should be a red flag.

Mike Blake: [00:38:14] So, a follow-up question I want to ask on this because I think given where this is going, this is really important, given what I’m learning today, if somebody is in a position to think they might want to change an attorney, I think one of the piece of advice I would give him is, “If you decide to change legal counsel, this needs to be your last change for a long time.”

Jeff Berman: [00:38:41] Ideally, yes. Going to a third lawyer, you’re going to have a tough time finding that third lawyer.

Mike Blake: [00:38:48] Right. Right. That’s going to be some of the most likely desperate for the business, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:38:54] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:38:54] One change, okay. Things didn’t work out. Maybe there’s just a bad connection or that lawyer in that particular case didn’t do a good job, but man, you’re going to change twice in the same matter or more, you know, that just streams warning, Will Robinson, that kind of thing, right?

Jeff Berman: [00:39:13] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:39:14] So, part of that calculus is, you know, if you’re going to make that change, be sure that person is going to follow you, that that’s going to be the person because you’re probably not going to have an opportunity to make that change again and improve your situation realistically.

Jeff Berman: [00:39:29] So, you’re really reinforcing the idea of when you are looking for an attorney, do your absolute best to be sure the first when you engage is someone that’s going to be able to handle the case like you want it to be handled or handled the transaction like you want it to be handled. Of course, if the lawyer is unprofessional, turns out to be incompetent, misses deadlines, that those kinds of reasons would make it easier to go to a second lawyer. That second lawyer would understand and appreciate that.

Mike Blake: [00:39:58] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:39:59] But again, going to a third lawyer at some point, people aren’t going to want to take your case for fear that you’re going to leave them and go to try to find a lawyer number four.

Mike Blake: [00:40:11] Right. At some point, it’s not everybody else, it’s you.

Jeff Berman: [00:40:14] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:40:14] So, here’s a potentially unfair question, but I like unfair questions, should you fire a lawyer over one mistake?

Jeff Berman: [00:40:25] Again, that gets back similar to the discussion about perfection.

Mike Blake: [00:40:30] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:40:31] It’s identifying the mistake, for one thing. But again, early in my career, and this goes back many years, an older attorney at that time told me that, “Jeff, all attorneys make mistakes. The good ones get out of them.” And I think that there is truth to that.

Mike Blake: [00:40:52] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:40:52] And, you know, again, keep in mind, lawyers are humans. Humans, probably somewhere in the definition says we make mistakes. So, mistakes can be somewhat anticipated, but it’s the impact of the mistake.

Mike Blake: [00:41:08] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:41:08] You know, if a paragraph gets left out of a purchase and sale agreement or an employment agreement and the client picks up on that and says, “Hey, you forgot this paragraph and I want it in there” or “I want this particular term, I want this particular amount for severance”, and the lawyer puts the incorrect number or forgets to put it, that’s a mistake. Is that a mistake worthy of firing the attorney? To me, no. Again, as long as the relationship otherwise is really strong.

Mike Blake: [00:41:42] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:41:43] There are mistakes like missing a deadline. You have to have an answer filed in court by April 1 and the lawyer misses that. That’s a pretty serious mistake. And that’s certainly a mistake worthy of thinking about, should I change lawyers? And I would encourage somebody in that position, a client in that position, to really sit down with the lawyer and understand why it happened and what the impact is going to be and how do we get out of it? Because, again, the lawyer may have—I hate to say a valid excuse because I’m not sure there is really a good excuse for missing a deadline, but sitting down, talking with a lawyer, understanding it may be the preferred way to go as opposed to jumping to another lawyer because of all of the issues related to jumping to another lawyer.

Mike Blake: [00:42:34] Right. Okay. So, sometimes, the thought process of changing counsel may be prompted by another legal counsel suitor jumping in that would like that business. And I’m curious. It’s even awkward to ask the question because it’s hard to ask it in a way that doesn’t make me sound like a gold-plated jerk. But I already mentioned that, so I’ll just thought out there anyway. You know, is it common, I guess, in your profession where maybe someone’s kind of nipping at the heels, trying to displace you, for example, as legal counsel because they would like that client?

Mike Blake: [00:43:17] Is that considered ethical? Is it gray business. Is it something that you encounter all the time? And if so, if a client sort of hears that, saying, “You know what, Jeff’s a great guy, but I think I can do a lot better. Let’s meet and review your case and see if we can get a better result than maybe, you know, what Jeff is getting for you guys.” There’s a question in there somewhere if you can kind of parse as you process this. How do you react to that kind of scenario?

Jeff Berman: [00:43:45] We think in my firm that other lawyers are always looking to poach clients, that it’s a given. Any client or any person out in the community potentially is going to run across other lawyers, and you can’t help but talk about your case somewhat, so you’re going to get opinions. There are also those lawyers who are just really looking to poach clients, particularly if it’s a corporation that’s a significant client.

Jeff Berman: [00:44:19] So, we do our best, again, going back to what we talked about earlier, of keeping clients informed, giving bills that make sense, being fair and reasonable in our billing. So, it clearly happens. I would suggest to clients to be careful because I don’t know how or it’d be very difficult to say I can get a better result for you than another attorney because probably at that point, we don’t know what the result is anyway.

Mike Blake: [00:44:51] Right.

Jeff Berman: [00:44:51] So, how do you measure “I can do better”? There may be times, however, that if you’re dealing with a lawyer that really doesn’t have the experience in the area and you talk to another lawyer and that lawyer seems to have much more knowledge about the kind of law you’re dealing with, then maybe the poach is a good thing. It clearly happens. We try to avoid letting it happen. It’s not unethical.

Mike Blake: [00:45:24] Okay.

Jeff Berman: [00:45:24] Whether it’s gray, maybe so. But it’s a competitive industry.

Mike Blake: [00:45:30] Okay.

Jeff Berman: [00:45:30] A lot of good lawyers out there, lot of lawyers that aren’t as good, but it clearly happens.

Mike Blake: [00:45:37] Interesting. Okay. So, just because somebody is kind of making a pitch for the business, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a bad person or a person of questionable ethics. That’s just what happens in a competitive business, I think is what I’m hearing you say.

Jeff Berman: [00:45:51] It is. And I mean, in my firm, I don’t think we would aggressively try to convince a client to leave an attorney.

Mike Blake: [00:46:00] Yeah. Yeah. And as a matter of personal practice, I generally don’t do that either. I typically will tell a client, you know, “If you’re happy with what you’ve got going on, great. If you have a question, happy to take the call.” But I generally won’t go further than that. But maybe I’m a sucker.

Jeff Berman: [00:46:18] And, you know, you mentioned earlier that there are a lot of lawyers in Atlanta and in the metro area, but it’s still a pretty small community.

Mike Blake: [00:46:26] Yeah.

Jeff Berman: [00:46:26] And if you get the reputation of being somebody that’s poaching clients, probably, to me, that’s not a reputation you want to have.

Mike Blake: [00:46:38] So, we’re running out of time here, but last question I want to get in here before we wrap up is, if you’re thinking about changing a lawyer, what are the three or four things that are most likely to represent a reasonable basis for changing counsel?

Jeff Berman: [00:47:01] Lack of communication.

Mike Blake: [00:47:04] Okay.

Jeff Berman: [00:47:04] We believe that you return emails daily as soon as you can. You just do it. You take phone calls. You keep clients informed of what’s going on in their matter. Failure to do those things are going to lead clients away from you. So, if your lawyer just doesn’t communicate with you, that’s just not a person you necessarily want to deal with in any relationship, especially one that is as tension-filled and as difficult as a relationship with a lawyer and a client. Again, if the lawyer just comes across as incompetent, yeah, you probably should start looking around.

Mike Blake: [00:47:52] And incompetent means not knowing answers to what ought to be fairly basic questions, obviously missing filing dates. To me, that’s borderline malpractice. You know, things of that nature might speak to the competence or lack thereof.

Jeff Berman: [00:48:06] Correct. Just again, an example, in any M&A transaction, there’s going to be due diligence where one side wants to look at all the information about the other side. And if you’re talking to a lawyer about an M&A deal, and they really don’t have a handle on due diligence, that’s probably not the lawyer you want to use because that’s almost as basic as you can get. And that’s probably an extreme example, but it’s still an example of where you expect lawyers to have some good knowledge of the transaction and to be able to walk you through it and explain to you what’s going to be involved. And if they can’t do that, that should be a red flag.

Mike Blake: [00:48:49] So, Jeff, we’re going to wrap up. There’s a lot more that we could have talked about today, but didn’t. But I do want to underscore that I think a key takeaway from this conversation is, if somebody is thinking about changing legal counsel, it’s not something to be taken lightly, right? And in some cases, that may be the result of a poor decision on the client’s part rather than anything that the lawyer necessarily did, has done, is doing. But it’s obviously a very complex decision. If somebody would like to learn more and maybe, you know, they’d like to get your expert insight into that thought process, can they contact you? And if so, what’s the best way to do that?

Jeff Berman: [00:49:33] Absolutely. Yes. Probably the best way to get in touch with me is through our website or through my email address, which is jberman@bfvlaw.com. I’d be very happy to talk to people and listen to why they are considering leaving or moving to another attorney and certainly giving my opinion, understanding it’s only my opinion, is that a good reason, a valid reason? And will a new attorney understand those reasons as valid reasons?

Mike Blake: [00:50:14] So, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Jeff Berman so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 52: Should I Have a Veterans Hiring Program? – An Interview with Jason Jones, CRESA

February 20, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 52: Should I Have a Veterans Hiring Program? - An Interview with Jason Jones, CRESA

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 52: Should I Have a Veterans Hiring Program? – An Interview with Jason Jones, CRESA

What benefits does employing veterans as part of a veterans hiring program bring to my company? What are some of the unique skills and perspectives veterans will bring to my company? Former Naval Flight Officer now technology and telecommunications advisor Jason Jones answers these questions and much more in this episode of “Decision Vision.” The “Decision Vision” series is hosted by Mike Blake and presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Jason Jones, CRESA

Raised in Atlanta, GA, Jason Jones attended Duke University in Durham, NC on a Navy ROTC scholarship. After graduating from Duke in 1991 with a degree in political science, he traveled to Pensacola, FL and enrolled in naval flight school. In 1993 upon moving to Virginia Beach, VA, he learned to fly the A-6E Intruder as a Bombardier/Navigator and was subsequently assigned to a fleet squadron, deploying on the USS Enterprise.

In 1997 Jason left Virginia Beach to begin a tour of duty as a navy medical recruiter in Phoenix, AZ while attending Arizona State University’s Evening M.B.A. program. After leaving the Navy in 1999 he worked for one and a half years as a civilian headhunter recruiting senior executives for health insurance companies.

Upon finishing his M.B.A. in August of 2000 and before entering the business world full-time, Jason departed on a 15-month world trip on September 18th, 2000, returning to the United States on December 18th, 2001. He later documented his travels in the book Nomad: Letters From a Westward Lap of the World.

After returning from his trip, Jason entered the commercial real estate industry, ultimately landing at Cresa.

Jason leads Cresa’s technology infrastructure advisory service line, C3, which assists clients with Communications (voice), Connectivity (Internet) and Cloud services – especially during a relocation. Choices for phones, Internet and cloud services are endless and constantly changing, leaving companies little time to stay on top of current options and put together the best solutions. C3 helps clients navigate the confusion caused by evolving and disruptive technologies and ensures coordination between the real estate and IT departments. IT leaders benefit from C3’s experience analyzing technologies from a vendor-neutral perspective and selecting best in-class solutions to match their specific needs. Solutions include hosted VoIP, SD-WAN, cloud hosting and cybersecurity.

To contact Jason, follow this link.

For more information on Hire Heroes, which Jason mentioned during the show, follow this link.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:01] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:20] And welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:38] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton, Columbus, Ohio, Richmond, Indiana, and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we are recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:03] So, the question and decision point that we’re talking about today is should I put in a veteran hiring program? And, you know, this topic is one that comes up every once in a while, but I think it’s particularly timely, because we are in an economy, at least, by some measures of unprecedented growth. It’s inarguable that we’re at historic lows in terms of unemployment. And I’m not going to debate on this podcast what that means or does not mean.

Mike Blake: [00:01:38] I’m sure there’s an economics podcast out there you can listen to if you really want to get in the weeds of that. But the fact of the matter is that, you know, it’s pretty easy to find a job and it’s pretty hard for employers to find qualified people to fill those slots at just about any level. And we are seeing some indications that wages at all levels of the labor force, including at the so-called unskilled or bottom end of the wage scale are creeping up.

Mike Blake: [00:02:07] So, that’s telling you there’s some tightness in the marketplace as we record this on January 10, 2020. And one of the things that then comes to my mind and gets me thinking is, you know, are we, as an economy, hiring everybody that we could? Are we leaving, you know, stones unturned? And there are two groups in particular that interest me in this area. I mean, everybody talks about, you know, people who have been out of the workforce a long time and now, they’re being pulled back in, talk about moms or even potentially stay-at-home dads that are coming back into the labor force.

Mike Blake: [00:02:44] But two groups that are getting, I think, now more attention are people with criminal records. That’s a topic I definitely want to approach. And I’ve got a guest that I’m eventually going to track him down and get him to come on, but we’re not going to do that today. And then, veterans, not that I would put them in the same group, but there are two groups that I think are historically neglected for, you know, whatever reason.

Mike Blake: [00:03:08] And, you know, I hear a lot of stories where, you know, veterans perform their service to our country for some period of time, whether it’s, you know, a brief enlistment or whether it’s a long career up until retirement. And then, they find that the civilian work environment is not particularly welcoming for veterans that are making that transition. And so, I think it’s interesting to kind of explore why that is and also interesting then to talk about, you know, what is the case for hiring a veteran.

Mike Blake: [00:03:43] And full disclosure, I think some of the best business leadership books I’ve ever read have been written from a military perspective. One of them is called Semper Fi. And I read this, I’m going to say, about 15 years ago. And it talks about the application of US Marine Corps team building methods, particularly, when they train recruits from day one until they get through the crucible. And I think that’s an outstanding book.

Mike Blake: [00:04:11] Not that we’re necessarily going to have accountants that are climbing rope ladders and so forth and staying out in the woods for 72 hours of food or water, but there are a lot of things there that I think are useful. And then, another one, by a guy named Michael Abrashoff, retired captain of the US Navy, called it, It’s Your Ship. And it’s a story about how he turned around the USS Benfold, which was the worst performing ship in the US Pacific fleet into the second highest performing ship with only a two-year tour of duty.

Mike Blake: [00:04:45] And I heard him speak on that, fascinating, read the book, learned a ton. So, you know, to me, you know, the military has a lot to offer in terms of skills that can translate into business. I find it perplexing that employers, sometimes, find themselves hesitant to hire veterans. So, I want to talk about that. And as you know, from our show, I don’t talk about these things myself, because I don’t know anything about it, so we’re going to bring in people who do know something about it.

Mike Blake: [00:05:18] And joining us today is a longtime friend, Jason Jones. Jason leads a C3 service line at Cresa, the world’s most trusted occupier-centric commercial real estate firm. C3 stands for communications, connectivity, and cloud. And helps information technology leaders navigate the decisions that lie at the intersection of real estate, finance, and information technology. And, you know, as an aside, that’s an interesting place to be, because not that long ago, we thought that information technology was going to obviate our need for real estate and real estate is going to go away, and it’s turned out to be the exact opposite just like we thought paperless technology gets rid of paper.

Mike Blake: [00:05:59] Information technology leaders benefit from Jason’s experience selecting best in class infrastructure service providers who can match each firm’s specific needs. Cresa is an international commercial real estate firm headquartered in Washington, D.C. Cresa represents tenants and provides real estate services, including corporate services, strategic planning, transaction management, project manager, facilities management, workforce and location planning, portfolio lease administration, capital markets, supply chain management, sustainability, sublease, and distribution.

Mike Blake: [00:06:29] Formed in 1993, Cresa now has more than 60 offices and 900 employees. In addition to Jason’s information technology consultation and real estate experience, Jason brings lessons learned during his military career. His naval service included flying A-6 Intruder attack jets off of aircraft carriers. While planning and flying tactical missions, he developed a talent for communicating details with concise, mission-oriented focus.

Mike Blake: [00:06:56] Jason has successfully turned his disciplined approach as a naval aviator into a methodical approach for helping companies optimize their corporate real estate and information technology services. After departing the Navy, Jason earned an MBA from Arizona State University and complete a 15-month solo trip around the world about which he wrote and published a book, which I believe is called, NOMAD: Letters from a Westward Lap of the World.

Mike Blake: [00:07:21] His military travel and academic background give him the depth and character to guide his clients to the most effective solutions. Since then, Jason has been active as an advocate to help companies understand the benefits of hiring military veterans and coaching veterans in how to prepare themselves for civilian employment. Jason’s affiliations include the Atlanta Commercial Board of REALTORS, Million Dollar Club, Buckhead Church member, Starting Point leader, and Duke’s C-Level graduates of Duke University and is a founder.

Mike Blake: [00:07:50] He is a flight school Top Gun recipient. And that’s not exactly what you may think it means. We’ll ask Jason to explain that. It’s still good, it’s just not the movie. Published the book that we just talked about. He’s a CoStar Power Broker from 2005, ’07, ’08, Volunteer of the Year, and two-time recipient of the Forever Duke Award. Jason, thank you for coming on our program and thank you for your service to our country.

Jason Jones: [00:08:16] Michael, it is a pleasure to be here. And I just want to say, I’m so glad that I’m at the right podcast. I got a little nervous when you talked about the criminal records and I thought, “Well, maybe that’s the one I should have supposed to do.” But showed up with the right one. I’m glad this is the right fit.

Mike Blake: [00:08:30] You did show up at the right one, yes.

Jason Jones: [00:08:32] Thank you.

Mike Blake: [00:08:32] Yes. Now, when we do that other one, we’ll—no, Jason is about as squeaky clean as it comes. And it’s because of people like Jason that shrieking cowards like me can post anything they want on Facebook. So, thank you for that. So, before we get into this, as I was telling you, you know, before we actually hit the record button, you know, when I invite people on the show, some people are people I’ve known a long time, something about meeting for the first time on the show, you and, I have known each other for, I think, a decade now.

Jason Jones: [00:09:03] Yeah, a

Mike Blake: [00:09:03] t least. And I did not know that you were a Top Gun recipient. What does that mean?

Jason Jones: [00:09:08] Sure. Well, when I was going through flight school, it’s a very challenging time. As I mentioned, this was back in the early-’90s. And the key to flight school is you only get to select the jet that you want to fly, is if you graduate number one in the class. And so, there’s a lot of incentive and we’re naturally competitive people anyways.

Mike Blake: [00:09:36] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:09:36] And the award that they give to that person is called the Top Gun award. So, that was what that was.

Mike Blake: [00:09:42] Interesting. So, you chose the A-6 Intruder?

Jason Jones: [00:09:45] I did.

Mike Blake: [00:09:45] Why?

Jason Jones: [00:09:46] You know, I was a bombardier navigator. I was a naval flight officer, which means that I ran systems on the aircraft. I help navigate the aircraft to help do all the mission planning and the strike planning and the bomb weaponeering, et cetera. And out of all the jets that were available for that type of position in the fleet, the one that I found most attractive is the one that was really at the center piece of the carrier battle group. And when you think about it, the aircraft carriers are made to put bombs on target.

Mike Blake: [00:10:17] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:10:17] Ultimately, it’s to project power. The jet that does that and the person who is putting crosshairs on the target and planning those missions is the bombardier navigator in the A-6 Intruder. So, that’s the one place I wanted to be.

Mike Blake: [00:10:31] Okay.

Jason Jones: [00:10:31] It was a great ride.

Mike Blake: [00:10:33] And so, you published a book. I was aware of your trip around the world, did not realize you published a book, so that’s going to go into my Kindle reading list. Tell me-

Jason Jones: [00:10:41] Well, really quick, as I like to tell people, when you read it, remember, it’s not Hemingway, it’s Jones. So, set your expectations.

Mike Blake: [00:10:52] Well, the good news, I’ve not been able to get through a Hemingway book in my entire life.

Jason Jones: [00:10:55] There you go.

Mike Blake: [00:10:55] So, I actually think that’s a positive. But tell us a little bit about the book and what drove you to write that book?

Jason Jones: [00:11:04] Yeah. Sure. Well, you know, I’ve always had a love of adventure. And I think that’s part of what attracted me to naval aviation. And so, when I got out of the Navy, after an eight-year tour of service, I decided to travel around the world by myself on a backpacker’s budget, $40 a day. And as I traveled, I kept a journal, as I was taught as a young child on family vacations, to always keep a log or journal. So, I did that. And then, I started drafting e-mails to friends and family, letting them know what I was doing, where I was.

Jason Jones: [00:11:43] And as I kept doing that, going from country to country to country, because this was a 15-month trip, I went to approximately 25 countries. And we’re not talking about Europe, where everything’s real close to each other, we’re talking about Africa and South America and it’s a pretty long distance. So, I covered some ground. But I got the idea, I’m going to share this with other people. I’m going to encourage especially Americans to contemplate to consider international travel. I think that’s a good thing for those people and also, just for relations between people in different countries.

Mike Blake: [00:12:18] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:12:18] And that’s why I made the effort to put it together into a book.

Mike Blake: [00:12:22] I could not agree with you more. You know, as you know, I’ve lived abroad early in my career and in Russia. And one of the more striking things from that era was that I worked in a building in Minsk that was a bomb shelter, right? And then, you realize those bombs are supposed to be coming from my home country, right?

Jason Jones: [00:12:45] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:45] And that’s a point, for me, I realized, you know, they have a different economic system-

Jason Jones: [00:12:50] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:50] … but they’re afraid of this. You know, they’re every bit as afraid of us as we were of them.

Jason Jones: [00:12:54] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:12:55] Right?

Jason Jones: [00:12:55] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:55] And all concerned and everything else. And, you know, unless you go there and you see that and you touch it, you just never experience that. And, you know, I’ll also take that option to brag on one of my cousins. She also was a naval aviator.

Jason Jones: [00:13:11] Oh, nice.

Mike Blake: [00:13:11] Was flying—whatever the term is with the person who operates the radar.

Jason Jones: [00:13:18] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:13:18] I believe it’s called a Hawkeye aircraft, surveillance kind of-

Jason Jones: [00:13:20] Yeah, E-2C Hawkeye.

Mike Blake: [00:13:22] There you go.

Jason Jones: [00:13:22] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:13:23] But she was recently admitted into the Monterey Foreign Language School, where she’s now learning Arabic.

Jason Jones: [00:13:30] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:13:30] So, her goal was to get stationed over there. And-

Jason Jones: [00:13:32] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:13:32] … you know, what a great opportunity, right? Again, there is no danger of my joining the military, but there’s one part of which I was envious, that language school, it’s the finest language structure the world and she’s going to take that opportunity to learn about the Arabic world, right?

Jason Jones: [00:13:49] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:13:49] Which is so very different. And Jennifer, you’re awesome. So, if you’re listening to this podcast, you heard it here over the internet. All right. So, you know, you’ve been successful, you joined The Million Dollar Club, which I assume has something to do with doing something that’s worth a million dollars.

Jason Jones: [00:14:09] Somewhat.

Mike Blake: [00:14:09] Somewhat, right?

Jason Jones: [00:14:10] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:14:10] So, how, in your mind, has your military service helped you get to that point?

Jason Jones: [00:14:18] You know, I think what the military and specifically, I’ll speak to naval aviation.

Mike Blake: [00:14:25] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:14:25] Because that’s what I come from.

Mike Blake: [00:14:26] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:14:26] Tactical aviation, launching off the aircraft carriers. It ingrained in me deeply sort of three character traits or qualities. One is I became very detail-oriented, I became process-driven and mission-focused. Those three things, detail-oriented, process-driven, mission-focused. And as I break each of those down, you know, in the Navy, when you’re flying jets and you’re dropping bombs, you really do need to pay attention to the details, okay?

Mike Blake: [00:15:00] I guess so. That makes sense to me.

Jason Jones: [00:15:02] And a little tiny detail, I’ll give you one example, so you might get a couple of sea stories here on this podcast.

Mike Blake: [00:15:08] That’s what I’m hoping.

Jason Jones: [00:15:09] Okay? I had an instructor in flight school who was doing some practice bombing runs in a training exercise. And you have some settings on the armament control unit that will determine the distance that the bombs will hit the ground or the time interval between release of bombs and those two are related. And then, you have another number that’s the number of bombs you’re going to release. And the A-6 could carry 24, 25 500-pound bombs. Typically, we only carried, you know, 12 or so and then, maybe a missile or two.

Jason Jones: [00:15:50] But in this case, they were going through the practice area, they were running out of their time on target on station and they said, “Well, let’s do one more run through and let’s run up the number to clear all of our bombs off of our jet.” The problem with that was their settings for the timing in between the release of bombs was too short of a time for safety. It was only good for dropping one at a time. So, when they dialed up the number of bombs and there was a little note in the weaponeering that said, “Do not drop more than one bomb at a time”, under the settings.

Jason Jones: [00:16:29] So, they were under pressure. They need to get these bombs off. They need to get out of the target area, because you got some other jets that are coming in. They dialed it up, had a bomb-to-bomb collision under the jet, it exploded, and they had to eject. So, that’s a sort of a real-life story. And it’s not that in the business world, we have, you know, situations where, you know, the cost of a missed detail is your life, but you certainly learn it with that level of intensity when you’re in the military. And I think that can roll over into being a really good employee who pays attention to the details.

Mike Blake: [00:17:06] And, you know, business being more forgiving, right? Very few people die.

Jason Jones: [00:17:10] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:17:10] It might be embarrassing. You might even lose a job, right?

Jason Jones: [00:17:12] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:17:13] But nobody’s going to die from it. By definition, that makes it more forgiving, right?

Jason Jones: [00:17:18] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:17:18] So, if you have a mental kind of fault tolerance of that military, you know, you make mistakes, people die kind of thing-

Jason Jones: [00:17:25] Precisely.

Mike Blake: [00:17:27] … then it must seem like almost like child’s play-

Jason Jones: [00:17:30] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:17:30] …in a more forgiving environment.

Jason Jones: [00:17:32] You’re right. It’s more forgiving. But the second part of that, so I mentioned being process-driven. And my sea story there that I think is kind of somewhat humorous in how it applies to the private sector is I had a squadron mate who was taking off of the aircraft carrier. And naval aviation and the military, in general, but certainly, naval aviation is really big on checklists. All of aviation is, for that matter.

Mike Blake: [00:18:04] Right. My dad was a pilot. Even up until the day he couldn’t fly anymore, 30 years, always had the same checklist.

Jason Jones: [00:18:10] Yes, precisely. It’s a process. It helps with error avoidance and increasing efficiency. So, he was taxiing around the deck of the aircraft carrier. And as you taxi, you know, you have your rudders, are your steering wheel. So, that changes with the nose gear points. You also tap your brakes. So, he pulls up into the catapult and, you know, gets hooked up to the carrier, then he goes into what’s called tension, which is where you go to full power, but they haven’t shot you off the front end yet. And now, you do a quick checklist. You check your flight surfaces are moving properly with your stick. You check that the weight that you have communicated to the catapult officer is correct, because they’re going to set the pressure of the steam to launch you based on what your weight is. They don’t want to do too fast, don’t want it too slow, it’s got to be just right.

Mike Blake: [00:19:10] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:19:10] So, you’re cross-checking that. And the other thing that you check is that your feet are off the brakes and you say it out loud, “Feet off the brakes.” So, he goes through his checklist, salutes the catapult officer. Catapult officer fires the button to send him down the front. And we hear this loud boom, boom. That was his two main mounts, his tires blowing, because they didn’t roll, because he still had his feet on the brakes. So, guess what his call sign is for the rest of his career? Boom-Boom. So, it’s just a-

Mike Blake: [00:19:45] He’s lucky he still had a career.

Jason Jones: [00:19:47] Yeah. Well, precisely, but there is some forgiveness for things like this.

Mike Blake: [00:19:50] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:19:50] And he was fairly young and new. But the whole point of that is there’s a process. And that process, it sometimes includes a checklist. It increases efficiencies in error avoidance. And that’s a good thing in the private sector also.

Mike Blake: [00:20:07] And I thought for sure you’re going to give us some story about landing on an aircraft carrier, which, to me, has got to be one of the hardest and most terrorizing things to do. I mean, talk of something that needs precision and discipline.

Jason Jones: [00:20:20] Precisely. And, you know, kind of depends on the weather and time of day. Nighttime, bad weather, not so fun.

Mike Blake: [00:20:29] Oh, no.

Jason Jones: [00:20:29] Daytime, good weather, actually fun.

Mike Blake: [00:20:32] Okay.

Jason Jones: [00:20:32] Could be a good time.

Mike Blake: [00:20:33] Okay.

Jason Jones: [00:20:35] But, you know, that’s a process also. And the more consistently you can do the processes and trust the process, take the time to think about what should be the right process, the better success that you’re going to have, the fewer errors you’re going to have, the greater efficiencies you’re going to have. And again, all of that translates into a good employee, someone who has an appreciation for details, for process. And then, my third one was mission-focused. And that’s sort of the X factor that I think has helped me in my career.

Jason Jones: [00:21:08] It’s not getting lost in details, understanding that there’s a bigger picture, and that we’re going to accomplish the mission. That’s the thing about somebody coming out of the military, is if you give them a goal, if you give them a mission, that’s what feeds them. They want to accomplish the mission and they’ll do whatever it takes when you have their loyalty and you tell them that you’ve got their back. So, I think that’s another key attribute of, A, what helped me in the private sector and I think what the benefit is of hiring someone and having a veteran-hiring program.

Mike Blake: [00:21:43] So, you know, it certainly sounds to me like you credit your military service pretty heavily with the success that you have been able to achieve and sustain. Is that why you’re so passionate about sort of helping other veterans find their place and helping other companies find, you know, a great employee?

Jason Jones: [00:21:59] Yes. So, it’s a couple of things. One is, I do see the benefit it gave to me and how that parlays itself into the benefits to my company that I work for and the clients that I work for. But there’s also just a sense of having walked a mile in those shoes of making that transition and it can be a very difficult time for someone coming out of the military. And when you’ve been through that crucible, you naturally want to help people get through it as well.

Mike Blake: [00:22:35] And was it hard for you?

Jason Jones: [00:22:36] It was very hard.

Mike Blake: [00:22:37] What about it was so hard?

Jason Jones: [00:22:38] You know, it was one of those things where, A, I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do. So, I needed some help there, some guidance as to what’s the right fit for me, so I can be a good fit for the company I work with ore a good fit for the clients that I work with. So, I needed some help there. It happened to be a terrible economy when I was getting out. This was not too long after 9/11 and that was a terrible time to try to get hired by anybody, particularly a 100% commission only-based job in commercial real estate, where most people are older and have more experience and that’s how they get hired. But thankfully, I had an angel that flew into my life who hired me. And we’ve been partners for 19 years. So, it can work out to hire someone fresh out of the military.

Mike Blake: [00:23:30] Oh, there’s that loyalty, too, right?

Jason Jones: [00:23:32] And, you know, that’s another thing that I was going to say. I described attributes for me as a naval aviator, as a tactical aviator, I also think there are three characteristics of anyone coming out of the military, just generally speaking, that they’re going to have their benefit to the private sector, to companies hiring them. And you hit on one of them. But I would say it is, they have a tremendous work ethic, they’re extremely loyal, and they have a sense of personal responsibility.

Jason Jones: [00:24:09] So, tremendous work ethic, extremely loyal, and a strong sense of personal responsibility. Those three characteristics go a long way. I mean, you can do a lot with that raw talent, those raw materials. You just have to have a program to capture that talent, to bring it into your organization and then, you’ve got to have some degree of training to help. And that would be the case with anyone coming into an organization now. But I think that’s the investment that’s worth making by private sector companies.

Mike Blake: [00:24:46] And that last part about not giving up and, you know, making sure that you complete your task, as I’ve read books on military leadership, I think that’s something that they do exceptionally, exceptionally well. They’re so good at team building.

Jason Jones: [00:25:05] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:25:06] Because ultimately, you have to be able to rely on those people in combat, ultimately, right? So, there’s just no F-ing around at that point, I have to imagine.

Jason Jones: [00:25:15] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:25:15] And, you know, one thing that struck me about the Marine training program, you know, that one of the ways they trained people, I don’t know if it’s the same way in the Navy, but basically, if somebody in the platoon screws up, the entire platoon suffers, right? And to my mind, I think that’s about as effective a motivator as anybody. It’s one thing if you suffer all the time when you screw up.

Jason Jones: [00:25:39] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:25:39] But then, you see that other people are going to pay a price when you screw up, which is exactly what they’re trying to do, right?

Jason Jones: [00:25:43] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:25:43] You screw up, they die.

Jason Jones: [00:25:44] That’s right, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:25:45] I think that is immensely effective. But then, it produces somebody whose focus is not even on the dollars, right?

Jason Jones: [00:25:52] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:25:52] Once you’re on that team, you’re just like, “I don’t want to be the weak link.”

Jason Jones: [00:25:56] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:25:56] Period.

Jason Jones: [00:25:57] Well, you reckon, A, there’s that sort of comradeship and being a part of something larger than yourself are great qualities for any organization. And you also have, again, that sense of personal responsibility, that accountability to each other. And I’ll give you a good example of the kind of accountability that’s expected in the military. And I think, gosh, this is the kind of person that I would want to have in my organization. There was someone I knew, he was a Marine Corps officer, and he was stationed for a period of time at the Pentagon.

Jason Jones: [00:26:36] So, he’s living in Arlington, I believe it was. And he’s got to drive in the next morning. It’s his day to do what’s called stand the duty. So, every command has a duty officer, someone who answers the phone. If there’s some type of emergency, they would be the one that’s in charge. And it’s a typically a shift during the day. You’re the squadron duty officer for that day or whatever the case may be. There was a terrible snowstorm and ice everywhere on the roads. He couldn’t make it in to stand the duty the next morning.

Jason Jones: [00:27:14] It happened overnight. So, he calls up to his boss and he says, “Hey, look, as you know, there’s this terrible snowstorm or ice storm, I can’t get in to stand the duty.” Well, the response from his boss was, “Why didn’t you drive in last night?” You saw that the weather report said, “There might be—your job is to be here and we don’t shut down, we don’t not go to war, we don’t not do our duty just because it snowed or there was ice on the roads.

Mike Blake: [00:27:47] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:27:47] You should have come in, set up a cot, and slept here overnight. That’s the level of accountability that I’m talking about. Now, am I saying that we really need to go that far in the private sector? Not really. But boy, wouldn’t you want somebody who comes from that type of mentality working in your organization?

Mike Blake: [00:28:06] And the underlying texts of that are our time management-

Jason Jones: [00:28:09] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:28:09] … and contingency planning.

Jason Jones: [00:28:12] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:28:12] Right?

Jason Jones: [00:28:13] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:28:13] And contingency planning and making sure that you control the outcome.

Jason Jones: [00:28:19] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:28:20] Right. What happened in that case is that that individual allowed nature to control the outcome-

Jason Jones: [00:28:26] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:28:26] … which is not—like you said, you know, the military doesn’t just take days off.

Jason Jones: [00:28:31] Right. “Oh, it snowed today.”

Mike Blake: [00:28:32] That’s a great way to get bombed. So-

Jason Jones: [00:28:35] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:28:37] So, why do you think veterans have had trouble finding places in—actually, I’m going to come back to that because I want to go back to something that I think is so important to your transition. It’s better than any of the questions that I wrote down-

Jason Jones: [00:28:54] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:28:54] … which is you talked about that difficulty transitioning from military into civilian life.

Jason Jones: [00:29:02] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:29:03] What was it that made the transition possible? So, an angel came down, gave you a shot.

Jason Jones: [00:29:09] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:29:09] 19 years later, you’re still there.

Jason Jones: [00:29:11] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:11] I want to drill down more into the micro there, right? They hired you, but you knew how to navigate and how to drop bombs on people.

Jason Jones: [00:29:21] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:23] As far as I’m aware, that’s not part of the Cresa job description. You’ve never mentioned either of that coming up when you’re selling at least to a data center.

Jason Jones: [00:29:29] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:29:30] Right?

Jason Jones: [00:29:30] That’s correct, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:29:31] So, what was that process like to get you from that to where you are? Did they have to train you a ton? Was it learning by doing? Was it formal training? Was it mentoring? Something else I can’t even think, dumb luck, what was it?

Jason Jones: [00:29:48] Grit. Grit. I mean, this is the other thing, it’s that I mentioned the mission-focused and just doing whatever it takes to get the job done. One of the things that—A, I love to learn, so that’s convenient. But as soon as I-

Mike Blake: [00:30:10] You don’t go to Duke if you’re a rotten student.

Jason Jones: [00:30:13] My application got put in the wrong pile, I’m telling you. I don’t know how I got in there, but I just feel like, you know, someone took a chance, so to speak, on me, because they saw raw talent. And then, I had the grit to persevere and teach myself to a large degree, but thankfully, I had the grit and the humility to go to people and learn from them and ask for help. And that’s really what I did. It took me 90 job interviews to get that job.

Mike Blake: [00:30:50] Ninety?

Jason Jones: [00:30:51] Ninety.

Mike Blake: [00:30:52] Wow.

Jason Jones: [00:30:52] I counted it out. Now, these job interviews were not all interviews for a specific job, it was all informational interviews.

Mike Blake: [00:30:58] Right.

Jason Jones: [00:30:58] But I counted it up and it was 90 people in the commercial real estate industry in Atlanta. Number 90 hired me and hired me on the spot. But I kept learning along the way. And then, once I got that position, I kept those interviews going with, now, people inside the organization so that I could learn. And it was all on the job training and that’s part of what was tough about the transition. But what I sensed coming out of the military is it gives you all of these raw material qualities that put you in a position for success and to really contribute significantly to whatever organization does themselves a favor, in my opinion, and hires you.

Mike Blake: [00:31:45] So, you know, that’s interesting. So, a learning point that I’m getting out of this is that, you know, if you’re an employee and you’re looking at a veteran and most of the time, you’re going to look at somebody that does not have a directly translatable skill, right? Some of them are. You know, I have another cousin who is in information security and satellite communications. He’s a major in the army. He’ll transition to civilian business.

Jason Jones: [00:32:09] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:32:09] Just in fact, he may just stay in the same place, change his uniform-

Jason Jones: [00:32:13] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:32:13] for a suit, basically, or khakis. But I think what I’m learning is that as a hirer, I need to evaluate a little differently, right? Because, you know, most people are not going to walk in, “Oh, I have five years of experience in accounting”, right? Or, “I have four years of experience in law”, you know, whatever, real estate. But the X factor is that a lot of civilian candidates, if they don’t have that, it’s a wild card as to whether or not they’ll be able to get there from there to here.

Jason Jones: [00:32:53] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:32:53] Right? With a military person, with the military background or a veteran, that sounds like that’s a lot less of a wildcard.

Jason Jones: [00:33:01] Correct.

Mike Blake: [00:33:02] Because again, now, here’s new mission, right? And it doesn’t even enter your mind that this isn’t going to work out, you just figure it out.

Jason Jones: [00:33:13] We’re going to burn the ships and we’re going to make it happen.

Mike Blake: [00:33:15] We’re going to burn the ships and we’re going to make it happen.

Jason Jones: [00:33:16] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:33:16] So, you know-

Jason Jones: [00:33:16] And also, one thing I’ll add is you also tend to get, particularly, if you’re hiring into a junior position, which really, sort of needs to be for a lot of folks that are, you know, four to eight years out of either college or high school and they’re now transitioning into the private sector for the first time, they’re not going to go straight into an advanced position.

Mike Blake: [00:33:38] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:33:38] It’s going to be entry level. And they understand that they’re going to rise up quickly and they’re going to want to. And I think you should give them that opportunity. But the thing that you get is you get maturity. This is someone who’s not straight out of college, who’s not straight out of high school. They’ve got some life experience under their belt. And that has to translate into greater productivity, better culture, all these things as you want that, really, you talk about culture, that’s an X factor. And when you have someone who is detail-oriented, process-driven, mission-focused, extremely loyal, tremendous work ethic, understands personal accountability, that’s the kind of person I want in my culture.

Mike Blake: [00:34:15] And, you know, think about how old were you when you were flying, right? It’s even A-6.

Jason Jones: [00:34:18] It would’ve been from the ages of, you know, graduate college when you’re 21 to 28.

Mike Blake: [00:34:26] So, at that age, you’re in charge of, say, a $20-million aircraft? $15-million, 20-million asset?

Jason Jones: [00:34:32] Easily.

Mike Blake: [00:34:33] Right?

Jason Jones: [00:34:33] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:34:33] How many 22-year-olds are in charge of a $20-million balance sheet?

Jason Jones: [00:34:37] Well, it’s not only that, you’re in charge of where your bombs go.

Mike Blake: [00:34:42] Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:34:43] And that can be a lot more expensive.

Mike Blake: [00:34:45] And as we’ve learned, not all at once. Wherever they go, don’t do it all at once, right?

Jason Jones: [00:34:50] Yeah. Or, just pay attention to the details and do them in the right amount and the right settings, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:34:55] Yeah. Okay. So, you brought up culture, which is great because that segues exactly to the question I want to go to next, which is, I think an interesting thing about the military, I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but it’s a fairly uniform culture by design. I’m sure there are different leaders, other different styles, but at the end of the day, you’re in the US military or you’re not, right? And if I’m wrong, please correct me, because, again, I don’t know anything, just the movies talking basically and having beers with my cousins.

Jason Jones: [00:35:29] Keep going.

Mike Blake: [00:35:32] You’re not going to see that in the business world, right? You’re going to see a wide gamut of cultures, some of which are highly ordered and regimented, some of which are highly decentralized, some of which may seem flat-out insane, right? I’m thinking of Silicon Valley startups, something like that, right? Are there certain cultures that you think veterans are going to gravitate more naturally towards or are veterans more of a Swiss Army knife, where they can adapt and succeed in whatever culture in which they happen to find themselves.

Jason Jones: [00:36:06] So, I think that is an excellent question and I’m so glad you asked it, because it gives me the opportunity to dispel a preconceived notion or just the wrong notion about the military and its culture.

Mike Blake: [00:36:26] Good.

Jason Jones: [00:36:26] So, what I’m going to say is counter-intuitive. The culture where someone from the military will probably not do well would be a highly regimented, militaristic culture.

Mike Blake: [00:36:41] Huh?

Jason Jones: [00:36:42] So, here’s why. What folks don’t realize is the culture of any type of military service, particularly those that are combat services, those that are going to require someone to go into combat, require that person, by definition, to operate in a dynamic environment. They have to be a decision maker. They need the freedom to make decision. So, what you do as a good leader for combat services is you explain the big picture, you tell them what the mission is.

Jason Jones: [00:37:20] And then, you leave it up to them to figure out how to do it, because you never know what happens in the haze of combat, where the circumstances are going to change. They’re going to have to call an audible. They’re going to have to adapt to the circumstances. But as long as they know the big picture and the ultimate goal, they’ll be able to make those changes in that rapidly changing dynamic environment to accomplish the mission.

Mike Blake: [00:37:48] That reminds me of something I think is attributed to Eisenhower, who said that every battle plan is great until the first shot is fired.

Jason Jones: [00:37:57] There you go.

Mike Blake: [00:37:57] Or, something like that, right?

Jason Jones: [00:37:59] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:37:59] You think about D-Day, there are so many things that went wrong in the invasion of D-Day. And to a certain extent, one of the reasons the Allies prevail was more things went wrong for the Germans, but it was not a flawless-

Jason Jones: [00:38:09] Whatever it takes.

Mike Blake: [00:38:10] Yeah, it was not a flawless-

Jason Jones: [00:38:11] No, of course not.

Mike Blake: [00:38:12] … operation, people landing where they weren’t supposed to.

Jason Jones: [00:38:16] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:38:16] Those poor guys crossing the British Channel, they’re fed like a 3,000-calorie breakfast. And, you know, you could predict how that worked out. Again, sort of best-laid plans. You’re right. It is counter-intuitive, because the stereotype is I’ve got to have almost a Marine boot camp-style of management to let somebody from the military really flourish. But in point of fact, where the military succeeds is when they have to think for themselves.

Jason Jones: [00:38:44] It’s-

Mike Blake: [00:38:44] Because you’re not always going to have somebody telling you what to do.

Jason Jones: [00:38:47] That’s what all of the training is about in the military, is putting that person in position to be able to think creatively for themselves, yet keep the bigger picture mission in mind. I can think of no better employee that I would want to hire.

Mike Blake: [00:39:05] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:39:05] Right?

Mike Blake: [00:39:06] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:39:06] That’s what you call, to some degree, this is a little slang, is a fire-and-forget-type employee.

Mike Blake: [00:39:15] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:39:15] Okay? And I got this from one of the guys who used to work for Buddy’s Copycat. And this person, when Scott was describing him as a mutual friend of ours, he said, “Oh, yeah, that guy’s fire-and-forget.” And what he means by that is there are anti-tank missiles, this is just one example where when you shoot that missile at the tank from a shoulder-fired launcher, there’s a little wire that uncoils, but it’s connected to that missile and you guide it all the way to the tank. That’s a guided-all-the-way-to-the-tank missile. But fire-and-forget would be that anti-tank missile can lock on to the heat signature of that tank or in some other way where it no longer requires guidance once you fire it out of the tube. So, it’s fire and forget. You see what I’m saying?

Mike Blake: [00:40:08] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:40:08] So, that’s the kind of employees you want and that’s where the culture, back to your original question, where someone from the military is going to thrive is when you give that person as much leeway, as much freedom as possible, build the walls that they have to operate in very high, but make them very, very wide and say, “Go get it done.” And then, you’re going to let the horses out of the gate and they’re just going to do amazing things for you.

Mike Blake: [00:40:37] So, all these sounds fantastic and as an aside, we actually have a Marine that is starting in our group starting on Monday. So, I’m really happy about that.

Jason Jones: [00:40:53] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:40:53] With all this that’s going for veterans, why does it seem like they have trouble getting hired?

Jason Jones: [00:40:59] Well, those that may have trouble and so, I don’t know what the statistics are or what have you, but I think there’s a couple of things. One is their preparation for transition. I can only speak to my experience.

Mike Blake: [00:41:14] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:41:14] I got out of the Navy in 1999 so that was a long time ago. It wasn’t a really great process for preparing me for that transition. So, I think preparation is one challenge, but the other challenge is, and that’s why I’m so glad to have an opportunity to do this podcast, is awareness on the business side, in the private sector of how to translate their experience, their character traits, the qualities that they bring to their organization, being able to have the vision of—the employer, having the vision of how can I plug this great talent into my organization. What type of veteran-hiring program can I put in place that’s going to attract that talent and then, how do I train it? And so, I think that that piece is a little bit missing. And there are some organizations out there that are dedicated to helping bridge that gap between those two sides.

Mike Blake: [00:42:15] You know, what it seems to me the way you’re describing it, it’s kind of a shift of cost, right? If I take somebody out of college who also has little civilian work experience and maybe they even do have work experience, the issue, I may have some comfort on the direct skill set translation side and the place that I’m going to wind up spending most of my time is on building culture, discipline, work ethic, the desirable, ironically, the soft things that make an employee long-term successful, right? If I hire a veteran, I may have to invest more, a little bit more in the skills training side, but those other things, in terms of showing up to work on time and following company procedures and getting along with people and stuff-

Jason Jones: [00:43:06] Being able to think creatively.

Mike Blake: [00:43:08] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:43:08] Keeping in the mission-focused.

Mike Blake: [00:43:09] Fire and forget.

Jason Jones: [00:43:09] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:43:10] Right. That’s done. All right. I can check off the box and I can forget about it, right? And in the long run, it’s probably cheaper, easier, and more effective to train the execution skill than it is to train the person in terms of how they’re going to be as an employee and a team player, because the military’s already done that for you.

Jason Jones: [00:43:30] The execution skill piece, you know, that’s a repeatable process.

Mike Blake: [00:43:33] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:43:34] And the soft-side stuff, it’s more difficult.

Mike Blake: [00:43:40] And you may not know the answer to this question, so, you know, I’m going to give you a pass anyway, but I’m curious-

Jason Jones: [00:43:46] I can always pretend.

Mike Blake: [00:43:48] Yeah, well, there you go. So, one question I’m curious about, if somebody were to apply for a job at my organization, can I call the military and ask for a reference or is there a military record, something that I can access as a matter of public record? How do check somebody’s background the same way I might check a civilian applicant?

Jason Jones: [00:44:09] Yeah. My only answer to that that I’m aware of is that you can, at a minimum, ask the former service member for what’s called their DD 214.

Mike Blake: [00:44:22] Okay.

Jason Jones: [00:44:22] Department of Defense Form 214, which is your exit paperwork, which basically says, “Were you given an honorable discharge, a dishonorable discharge, a bad conduct discharge?” And that will at least let you know that standing. There may be more, Mike, but that’s the only one that I’m aware.

Mike Blake: [00:44:43] Okay, fair enough. So, this has been great, I’ve learned a ton. I think one last question I want to ask before we wrap up here is, is there a difference—you’ve talked a lot about, because I think this your direct experience, you know, you retired from the military relatively early in your life on the right side of 30, as they say, but there are others who go into the workforce that have had a full, is it 20 or 25-year retirement.

Jason Jones: [00:45:15] Twenty years.

Mike Blake: [00:45:15] Twenty years, right?

Jason Jones: [00:45:16] Yeah, in all of these.

Mike Blake: [00:45:17] And so, they’re going to, you know, have retired and they’re going to have someone coming, because they’ve earned it, is there any kind of—but a lot of them want to kind of have that second career, right? They’re only 45-ish and a lot of life left, right? Maybe you’re not ready to play golf for the next 50 years or so.

Jason Jones: [00:45:39] I’m over that number and I got a lot of life left.

Mike Blake: [00:45:41] There you go. God willing, right? So-

Jason Jones: [00:45:43] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:45:43] But is there a difference in your mind, do you think, in hiring somebody that’s had that full military career and is going for Chapter 2 as opposed to somebody who is relatively young and maybe, there’s a different kind of life priority? Am I making any sense with that question?

Jason Jones: [00:46:00] Yeah, I think the idea is how motivated are they going to be, really?

Mike Blake: [00:46:05] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:46:05] What kind of effort are they going to put in? How much initiative do they have, really? My thought there is, you know, let’s take a look at some private sector folks that never spent a day in the military and had a career change.

Mike Blake: [00:46:27] Okay.

Jason Jones: [00:46:27] So, for instance, let’s take one example. You’re familiar with David Cummings.

Mike Blake: [00:46:30] Sure.

Jason Jones: [00:46:31] Right? So, for those listening who don’t know, David Cummings is a highly successful entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur-type. So, he had an exit, a big one with a company called Pardot. He had to be in his early-30s, I’m not sure, but he was young. When he sold out and made his gajillion-figure number and he came to you and he said, “Mike, you know, I’ve got an idea. I’ve got some ideas. I want to go to work”, would you hire that guy?

Mike Blake: [00:47:06] I think I would find a way to hire him, yes.

Jason Jones: [00:47:08] I think I’d find a way. David, if you want a job, if you’re listening, let us know. I’ll get you in touch with our HR person.

Mike Blake: [00:47:14] Right. He left that big exit, which was a barely big number, and, you know, bought a building and started a startup community.

Jason Jones: [00:47:25] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:47:25] The Atlanta Technology Village.

Jason Jones: [00:47:26] And a fund and-.

Mike Blake: [00:47:27] And, you know, all sorts of things. So, it’s less about, are you at the end of one career and how motivated are you, because you finished up this career and maybe you have a pension, it’s really about the person. How hungry is that person? I just think the fact that they were in the military and they hit a retirement age is really irrelevant. It might be something, okay, we need to ask this question, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not going to have initiative and not be motivated, et cetera. Plenty of life left in somebody who is now in their mid-40s and ready for the next thing.

Mike Blake: [00:48:08] All right. Well, we’re running out of time and it’s time to wrap up, but there probably lots more questions that could be asked and our listeners are going to think of. If someone wants to reach out to you to maybe ask a question about maybe they’re a veteran looking for some help or they’re considering hiring a veteran or putting in a veteran employment program, can they contact you if they want some advice and guidance?

Jason Jones: [00:48:28] Yeah, sure. I think there’s two things that I would say. Number one, very easy to find me. The easiest way is just my name and you can Google it with the word Atlanta, because that’s where I live. You Google Jason Jones, Atlanta, my profile on my bio for my company, Cresa.

Mike Blake: [00:48:48] Yeah.

Jason Jones: [00:48:48] Right? All folks with voice communications and network connectivity will come up, top of the page, amazingly. We must have a really good marketing person who’s working on the search engine optimization. But the other thing that I would say is there’s one organization that I do want to mention that as I mentioned earlier, you know, there’s two sides to the coin of a veteran getting hired. One is the veteran being prepared and being able to translate what their skill set is to the private sector. And the other is the private sector company understanding. And one nonprofit that actually is headquartered here in Atlanta, although they do work all over the world is called Hire Heroes.

Jason Jones: [00:49:28] And you can obviously just Google that. Hire Heroes, they have job boards, where companies can post their position and veterans can go to take a look at what’s available. Obviously, these are people who are interested in the benefits of hiring a veteran or having a veteran employment program. They do employer training, which is where they will train your HR staff on veteran hiring and retention. They’ll do virtual career fairs. They’ll have talent sourcing where you get pre-screened e-mails, direct your inbox. So, I think that would be a good organization to look into if you have an interest in veterans.

Mike Blake: [00:50:03] All right. Very good. Little information nugget at the end. Thank you so much. That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. And I’d like to thank Jason Jones so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your other favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 51: Should Married Couples Be in Business Together? – An Interview with Carol and Steve Docalavich, yourLTL

February 13, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 51: Should Married Couples Be in Business Together? - An Interview with Carol and Steve Docalavich, yourLTL

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 51: Should Married Couples Be in Business Together? – An Interview with Carol and Steve Docalavich, yourLTL

On this special Valentine’s Day edition of “Decision Vision,” Carol and Steve Docalavich of yourLTL share their journey as a married couple in business together. It’s a great episode with lots of laughs and wisdom. The host of “Decision Vision” is Mike Blake and the show series is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Carol and Steve Docalavich, yourLTL

Carol and Steve Docalavich are Co-Founders of yourLTL.

yourLTL is a completely transparent freight intelligence solution, providing direct relationships with carriers supported by our expertise in rate negotiations and proprietary cloud-based transportation management solution (TMS). They provide the most advanced TMS available, to not only find and compare carrier rates for LTL shipments, but they also allow customer specific pricing for the freight needs of their clients, not just transactional rates. There is no contracts or extra fees. They guarantee Fairness & Accountability in Rates (F.A.I.R.). It’s straight forward and transparent!

Their scalable technology helps simplify the life-cycle of the shipping process allowing multiple departments to access the same shipment from the yourLTL platform regardless of the size of your business. Their simple-to-understand user interface make it easy to find, book, and track shipments in only a few clicks.

yourLTL is a certified woman-owned and controlled business.

For more information on yourLTL, you can find their website here.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Mike Blake: [00:00:20] And welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, a clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:39] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton, Columbus, Ohio, Richmond, Indiana, and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we are recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast, as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:02] So, the topic that we’re going to do today, and if all goes well, this is going to be released right before or on Valentine’s Day, is couples that going to business together. And I find this an interesting topic. And as it happens, my wife actually came in earlier today to do another interview on selling over Amazon as a retail channel, where, you know, she’s very good at that and I know nothing. But, you know, early in our married life, every time that we tried to have our business lives intersect with one another, it was usually ending up with one of us doing an internet search for divorce attorney.

Mike Blake: [00:01:02] It did not work particularly well. And we both recognized that and we tried to stay away from that. Over time, it’s gotten a little bit better. She’s like, “Yeah, now, you can ask me about how the business is going if you want.” That’s about it. And you probably won’t have to sleep on the couch. And I’ll kind of be on the same way. You can ask me about the business if you want and I may or may not decide to sleep on the couch. So, I have admiration for people who are able to do that.

Mike Blake: [00:02:15] It doesn’t mean that I think our marriage is bad, we’re 20 years together and she hasn’t thrown me out yet. And every day I go home and the key works as a blessing for me. But I do think that I’ve noticed there are couples that have that capacity to work together. And I know that I’m not the only person that’s curious about that, especially in today’s world where, you know, the nature of jobs is different and people going into business for themselves, it’s really never been easier.

Mike Blake: [00:02:44] I think we’re seeing that, you know, more and more and more. But how do you manage the dynamic of a romantic relationship being intertwined with a business relationship? So, as I said, this is not something that I am, at all, an expert on, except that I know that for my personality type, we’re staying away from that. So, we’ve brought in people who can talk about that with us because they appear to have been doing it successfully. And if not, maybe there’ll be some radio drama instead.

Mike Blake: [00:03:13] So, either way, this is going to be a win for the listener. Joining us are Carol and Steve Docalavich, who are co-founders of yourLTL, LTL or less than truckload software platform that provides a visual dashboard of shipping cost allocations, load manifests, shipment tracking, and discrepancy alerts. yourLTL is cloud-based and is continuously enhanced to improve the customer experience dedicated to simplicity and return investment for your less than truckload shipping. They’re also co-founders of Vestra Logistics, a freight brokerage company.

Mike Blake: [00:03:47] And both firms are located just down the road here in Alpharetta. And they also do some real estate management and investing together. Carol, in particular, is a serial entrepreneur, having launched several businesses in coffee, tea import/export, franchise advisory, property management. And Steve comes from a background of having been an air traffic controller for 23 years. So, thank you for making sure I landed safely all those times.

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:12] You’re welcome, Mike.

Mike Blake: [00:04:13] Carol and Steve, thanks for coming on the program.

Carol Docalavich: [00:04:16] Yeah, thanks, Mike.

Mike Blake: [00:04:17] So, how long have you been married and how long you’ve been in business together?

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:23] Eight years on the 14th. Eight years on the 14th.

Mike Blake: [00:04:27] Of this month?

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:29] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:04:29] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:04:29] Well, congratulations. That’s great.

Carol Docalavich: [00:04:32] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:04:32] And so, I mean, which came first?

Carol Docalavich: [00:04:37] Match.

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:38] Yeah. So-

Carol Docalavich: [00:04:39] match.com.

Mike Blake: [00:04:40] No kidding?

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:40] Yeah. That’s because Tinder wasn’t around at the time.

Mike Blake: [00:04:45] Well, you know, timing is everything, right?

Steve Docalavich: [00:04:47] Yes, that’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:04:47] So, you found each other on Match. And at that point, did you start to realize that both of you kind of had an entrepreneurial bat that you needed to be, wanted to be in business for yourselves or-

Steve Docalavich: [00:05:00] No.

Mike Blake: [00:05:00] So, how did that evolve?

Steve Docalavich: [00:05:03] Not at all. She was already in business for herself. Actually, we had met. I was an air traffic controller in California and we didn’t meet, meet, but we met only through one of her businesses. I moved from California to Washington Center, which is in Northern Virginia. And when I moved, the FAA moved me and the movers broke or scratched every piece of furniture I had. And so, I called the moving company and I said, “Hey, what I do about this?” Said, “Don’t worry about it, we’re going to send over a van.” This guy, he’s magical. So, they sent over a van and it was called Furniture Medic. I didn’t know what that was. Well, he came in, an hour later, everything was perfect. I was like, “This is amazing.” I never forgot about it, because that was in 1996, I met her in 2012, and she is the founder of Furniture Medic.

Mike Blake: [00:05:55] Oh, no kidding?

Steve Docalavich: [00:05:56] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:05:57] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:05:57] So, how did you get to meet the owner then? I mean, were you such a pain in the ass-

Steve Docalavich: [00:06:02] No, no, no.

Mike Blake: [00:06:02] … that you basically said, “I want to speak to the owner, this is unacceptable.”

Steve Docalavich: [00:06:05] What I’m saying is I surreptitiously, I figuratively met her through her business.

Mike Blake: [00:06:11] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:06:11] And then, in 2012, we actually were out on a date. So-

Carol Docalavich: [00:06:16] Now, we sold that business to—I’m trying to think which company that was with Landmark—but no, Service Master is who actually bought that business. And so, that was much before his time. So-

Steve Docalavich: [00:06:32] Yes, I was controlling airplanes, I was making sure you’re safe, Mike.

Carol Docalavich: [00:06:35] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:06:35] Thank you for that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:06:36] You’re welcome.

Carol Docalavich: [00:06:37] And a few businesses more a divorce. And then, we met on Match. You hate when I tell the story, but we actually met in June-

Mike Blake: [00:06:48] This is the internet.

Carol Docalavich: [00:06:49] … before we officially started dating in November. He sent a couple emails and apparently, I didn’t respond. So, I must not have been interested at the time. But now, we met in November just before Thanksgiving and we married six-and-a-half weeks later.

Steve Docalavich: [00:07:08] So, this is an example of how she has to win, Mike. So, she has to say, preemptively, that, “I ignored his e-mails before I acknowledged his e-mails.” So, that’s something.

Mike Blake: [00:07:20] But it certainly turned out all right. And a pretty quick turnaround, six-and-a-half weeks.

Carol Docalavich: [00:07:26] Yeah, six-and-a-half.

Mike Blake: [00:07:27] So, I guess as an entrepreneur, you’re just used to making important decisions fast.

Carol Docalavich: [00:07:30] That’s right. Absolutely.

Steve Docalavich: [00:07:32] And since I’m an air traffic controller, I just make bad decisions?

Mike Blake: [00:07:35] Well, if I’ve learned anything from pushing 10, you definitely to make decisions quickly, too, there, right? So-

Steve Docalavich: [00:07:41] Absolutely. Absolutely. And drink.

Carol Docalavich: [00:07:43] So, I was in the real estate business at the time just after the crash. And, you know, I’d been flipping homes and doing rental homes, about 30 or 40 a month at the time. And so, we got married and I said, “Look, you know, why don’t you join the company after you retire”, and, you know, that sort of thing. So, we kind of, you know, went down that path. And so, he started working with me when he could. You know, he’d not retired yet. So, he soft-stepped into it.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:18] It just so happened, I lost my medical right around that time, so I had to retire. Either retired or got an office job, so I just said, “I’ll retire.” And then, I got an office job with her. So-

Mike Blake: [00:08:28] You lost your medical, meaning you lost your medical clearance to do that job?

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:31] Right. Right. Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:08:31] Okay. I didn’t know that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:32] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:08:32] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:32] That’s why I was only in there for 23 years instead of 30.

Mike Blake: [00:08:36] I figured you’re just burned out.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:38] Yeah, I was burned at 15.

Mike Blake: [00:08:39] There’s got to be some burnout in that job.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:40] I was burned out at 15. So-

Mike Blake: [00:08:43] And at that point, I mean, interestingly then, you didn’t have any hesitation about joining the business and basically being around involved with each other all the time, because not every married couple honestly wants or thrives doing that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:08:59] Well, I mean, it was new.

Mike Blake: [00:09:01] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:09:01] I didn’t know what that would be like. It seemed to me I want to spend all of the time with her, I could, so hey, why not? Let’s work together. And when we were doing this, there was a property management company in Atlanta that it was managing thousands of homes. They were doing it for one of these—I think it’s Blackstone.

Carol Docalavich: [00:09:26] No, they were doing it for—it was Key.

Steve Docalavich: [00:09:27] It was Key.

Carol Docalavich: [00:09:27] But they were at the time, and there’s still a lot of this around, but, you know, investment companies were selling properties to overseas investors. And so, they were managing these overseas investors and they got bought out, you’re right, by Blackstone.

Steve Docalavich: [00:09:43] Right.

Carol Docalavich: [00:09:44] So, all the ones that weren’t owned going to be owned by Blackstone, they said, you know, “Let’s go find other management.” So, we took over a chunk of about 300 houses at one time for this management.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:00] And we didn’t even have a business at the time for managing that. We had to build one immediately to do it.

Carol Docalavich: [00:10:05] We did it in about two weeks.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:07] Oh, my gosh. It was incredible. And I quit. I mean, that’s one of the businesses we did. And I said, “Look, I can’t. You and I can’t do this together”, because it was the most negative business I’ve ever seen.

Mike Blake: [00:10:20] Why? What about it is so negative?

Carol Docalavich: [00:10:23] Nobody’s happy. Owners aren’t happy. Renters aren’t happy.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:26] Yeah. So, all the owners are international, right? So, everything that goes wrong, they’re mad about.

Mike Blake: [00:10:30] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:30] And the houses, you know, that these people were renting were, you know, they’d have problems and, you know, they were mad. So, it was—I think we built it to 500, 600 houses and sold it. I mean, she was already selling to all these international buyers anyway, so she had that relationship. So, we kind of sold that portion of the business and kept the houses.

Carol Docalavich: [00:10:53] Yeah, our houses.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:54] Yeah, our houses.

Carol Docalavich: [00:10:54] Yeah, our houses.

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:55] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:10:55] And then, sold those off separately. Actually, the Blackstone was who bought our portfolio. So-

Steve Docalavich: [00:10:59] Thank you, Blackstone.

Carol Docalavich: [00:11:00] … he came back on board after that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:02] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:11:02] So, he retired for just a second.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:04] Yeah. That was about it.

Mike Blake: [00:11:05] Like one of the Brett Favre retirements.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:07] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:11:07] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:07] It was a month. And then, I went to the Eagles.

Mike Blake: [00:11:11] So, Steve, let me start with you then, because you’re transitioning from air traffic control, a government job, I guess, right? I think it’s all government-

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:21] It’s all government.

Mike Blake: [00:11:22] … jobs, right? And now, you’re going to be an entrepreneur in the real estate business.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:28] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:11:28] Do you know anything about real estate? Were you any good at Monopoly, at least?

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:30] Define know anything. No.

Mike Blake: [00:11:33] Were you any good at Monopoly? Do you notice once they got the blue properties and-

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:36] Yeah, Park Place and Boardwalk.

Mike Blake: [00:11:37] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:37] Absolutely. It was easy. I mean, all you had to do was lean on her and she, you know, I went and got a cup of coffee for her every once in a while, and made some copies. And I came up, I’m an idea guy, Mike.

Mike Blake: [00:11:50] Okay. Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:11:50] So, I get a lot of good ideas. I think today was an idea of mine. It was probably a mistake. But no, it’s easy when you get somebody who knows what they’re doing. So, she’s taught me a lot over the last eight years.

Mike Blake: [00:12:05] Now, how about you? You’ve got an independent streak to you, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:10] Just a little.

Mike Blake: [00:12:11] Which is why you’ve been in business for yourself as long as I can kind of track your career, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:17] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:17] And now, here comes this interloper-

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:18] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:18] … that’s going to come in and sort of share the wheel with you. Was that hard or is it scary maybe? Was there any concern about that or-

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:29] Yeah, I guess probably at first. You know, I figured if you can direct hundreds of airplanes at one time, you probably can handle pretty stressful situations with-

Mike Blake: [00:12:37] That’s fair.

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:39] You know? So, I figured the stress he could endure and the rest of it was just, you know, he’s a pretty intelligent guy. He likes to say, “I don’t know”, because then, that just gets you a lot to do and stuff, right? Like, you know, that’s your—

Mike Blake: [00:12:52] That’s my go-to, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:52] … pat answer. Right. Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:12:55] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:12:55] But no, he really caught on really quickly. And, you know, I used to say, “This is not a government job, you know, we like work really long hours and get paid for just a few of them.” So, unlike government, where, you know, they work 40 hours and step out. No, he was really game. And he does really good at letting me take the lead. He does really good with that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:20] Can I talk now?

Carol Docalavich: [00:13:21] Yeah, go.

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:21] Okay. So—

Mike Blake: [00:13:22] Speaking of which.

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:25] It’s called fake it until you make it, Mike, is what, you just look confident and stand in the corner. And then, she basically tells me what to do. But-

Carol Docalavich: [00:13:33] That’s so not true.

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:35] Well, I mean-

Carol Docalavich: [00:13:36] Not now.

Mike Blake: [00:13:38] Even to a certain extent, though, I mean, there was a learning process for you, right?

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:41] Oh, absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:13:42] And not everybody can walk into that and be vulnerable and say, you know, “I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing.” And men have a harder time with that than women, I think.

Steve Docalavich: [00:13:52] I don’t have a problem with that. Actually, I’ve been doing that my whole career as an air traffic controller. But now, we would go out and we go look at houses and we purchase that, I go, you know, “I didn’t know what was good and what wasn’t good to buy.” So, it was an evolution there and it was fun. It wasn’t-

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:11] That business was really fun.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:13] It was. It’s not technical, was not difficult, it’s simply, there’s a house, buy it, don’t buy it. Put somebody in it, flip it.

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:24] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:24] Yeah, that kind of thing. So, that was fun. I mean, what we’re doing now has been an absolute learning-

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:32] That’s been a learning curve for both of us, yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:33] Yeah, but it’s been fun.

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:35] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:36] It’s been fun, because it’s like it goes from one thing to another to another.

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:40] We’re never bored.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:40] We’re never bored. We’re always together. And I talked about this with you last week, I think I said-

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:46] Before we knew about your questions.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:49] Yeah. And I don’t even think about spending time other than playing golf.

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:55] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:55] I mean, I want her to play golf with me and she won’t, because she doesn’t want to embarrass herself.

Carol Docalavich: [00:14:58] I would not have time to learn.

Steve Docalavich: [00:14:59] Right. Well, exactly. But I mean, if she could go play golf with me, I’d love to take her playing golf. That’s what I think is, some people can do that, some people can’t. But, you know, she could be with me all the time as far as I’m concerned.

Mike Blake: [00:15:12] As an aside, I remember when my wife and I were in our 20s, she said, you know, “You really got to think about taking up golf, it would really help your career.” And I said, “Let’s watch a game of golf and see if you still think that”, right? And, you know, as you know, a game of golf is not like a game of darts, it’s not over in 20 minutes. It’s like, you know, a game of golf is an all-day event. And to be any good at it where it does help your career, because you’re shooting 298, that’s not going to help your career if every other ball is in the pond-

Carol Docalavich: [00:15:44] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:15:44] … or hurt somebody. So, you know, “If you really want this, I’m out one day every weekend while it’s warm until I get sort of good.” She’s like, “Never mind, your career is just fine.”

Carol Docalavich: [00:15:59] Yeah, he does try to play just about every weekend. And so, we do have time apart then.

Mike Blake: [00:16:04] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:04] And, you know, I mean, we’re like most couples, we separate. You know, like I go read and he watches a foreign film or some, you know, documentary or-

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:12] We don’t sit in the same office anymore.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:14] No, we don’t sit in the same. We did for a long time, though.

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:16] We did, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:16] We sat in the same office.

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:18] And then, she let me have my own.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:21] I didn’t have to listen to every conversation there.

Mike Blake: [00:16:26] Well, I’m curious, what was the dynamic that warranted you to have the same office? My wife and I share the same office at home, which means I’m normally out at Starbucks when she’s working. But what made you want to do that? And then, what changed that made you decide you didn’t want to do that anymore?

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:41] She’s on the phone constantly.

Mike Blake: [00:16:43] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:43] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:44] And I’m just getting up and leaving and finding another desk-

Mike Blake: [00:16:48] Right.

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:48] … with a computer and work from there. So, we had that.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:51] That’s fair.

Steve Docalavich: [00:16:51] You know, she is never not on the phone and I’m never on the phone.

Carol Docalavich: [00:16:56] Yeah. Well, the first thing is when we started this business, you know, we just went into a space. We didn’t know what we needed yet. You know, we didn’t know what size. We didn’t know how many employees. We had no idea. And so, we just kind of rented a small space. And, you know, it was like, “Okay, we know we need accounting in one, you can lock that door”, you know, those sorts of things. “So, look, there’s one office left. Okay, we can put two desks in it, we can share it.”

Mike Blake: [00:17:22] Okay.

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:22] And I think was a good learning curve for you, too, to be able to hear a lot of that. And then, there are times that I have to kick him under the table, so there’s certain, you know-.

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:31] She’s done that twice already.

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:32] So, there’s certain conversations that I still have to say, you know, like there’s certain jokes or we’ll say, “No, he can’t go to that meeting.”

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:40] Okay. So-

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:41] Or, for sure-

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:41] … I don’t know.

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:43] No.

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:43] What?

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:43] You’re not going to tell that joke.

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:44] I’m not going to tell the joke, but I’ll give the—so anyway, no matter what, and this is strategic, so I don’t have to go to meetings, is there’s always a dead hooker joke-

Carol Docalavich: [00:17:55] Somewhere.

Steve Docalavich: [00:17:57] … somewhere in the meeting. And she’s like, “You can’t come.” “That’s okay. Great. That’s fine”, you know. But I’m not in sales. I’m not in sales, I’m more operational, I’m not marketing, I’m not into those things, I work with the people in the office more than I do people outside the office.

Mike Blake: [00:18:09] I don’t know how much mileage I can get by threatening to do a dead hooker joke.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:12] It works.

Mike Blake: [00:18:13] I’m going to try that.

Carol Docalavich: [00:18:14] He actually almost went to jail over that, so there’s-

Mike Blake: [00:18:16] Really?

Carol Docalavich: [00:18:16] … real story there.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:18] Yeah. Well, I was on the phone with an attorney a couple of months ago.

Carol Docalavich: [00:18:24] It’s true.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:24] And he was talking about our terms and conditions and he was—

Carol Docalavich: [00:18:28] Really negotiating it.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:30] Yeah. And he was talking about—I can’t remember what it was. So, I threw the dead hooker at him.

Mike Blake: [00:18:34] This is your attorney.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:37] Right. I said, “Look, we don’t because-” No, it’s not my attorney. He was another company.

Carol Docalavich: [00:18:41] He was a client’s attorney.

Mike Blake: [00:18:43] The other side’s, okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:43] That was doing our terms of conditions, they want to do business with us.

Mike Blake: [00:18:45] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:18:45] But they had a problem with something in there saying, you know, the liability part. And I was like, “Look, it’s not like all these truckers have dead hookers in the back and they’re running in a busload of nuns. I said, we got that covered. We have insurance for that. You don’t have to worry about that.” And there was silence and our business partner, Chase, was jumping up and down, screaming silently at me, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:07] So true.

Steve Docalavich: [00:19:07] Because he was mad. And then, the guy on the other end of the phone just started laughing.

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:11] It was one of those delayed like, you don’t know exactly what’s coming.

Mike Blake: [00:19:15] Right. Chirp, chirp, chirp.

Steve Docalavich: [00:19:15] I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming.

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:18] Yeah. So, there are-

Steve Docalavich: [00:19:18] I used to do it all the time.

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:20] … certain times he can’t get go to me.

Mike Blake: [00:19:23] So, I’ve observed two things about you guys, because, you know, we’re doing some things together a little bit. And one is that every time I’ve interacted with you as clients, you’re always together.

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:38] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:19:38] Which is interesting. Is that by design? Is that a business strategy or it’s because eight years later, you’re still newlyweds and you can’t get enough of each other? What is that?

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:49] I think it’s somewhat both. I mean, we even run errands together.

Steve Docalavich: [00:19:53] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:19:53] Yeah. And I think that’s why we married. So, to back up just a minute, when we got married, I mean, you know, when we said we were getting married, my family was like, “What the heck? Like you plan-” Everything’s a plan for me, like, you know, and they were like, “No, no. If you love him in a year, you know, we can, you know, hold off.” And, you know, I was like, “No, I know what I don’t want. And he’s none of those things.

Mike Blake: [00:20:18] Okay.

Carol Docalavich: [00:20:18] So I’m going to go for this.” You know, I was in my 40s, had been married 20-plus years the first time. So, you know, I was like, you know, “No, we’re going to do this.” But I think a lot of that has to do with we just enjoy each other’s company. Sometimes, he’ll go to work like this morning and it’s like, we didn’t do it today, but sometimes, he’ll leave and I won’t see him and we’ll end up in the same color, like we’re going to work and I’ll go, “Oh, my God. We both were blue. This is so stupid. How do we do this?” But yeah. I mean-

Mike Blake: [00:20:49] Oh, it means then there is an old name practice, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:20:50] Yeah, exactly. I mean, we’re in sync sometimes just like that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:20:54] We look like old people-

Carol Docalavich: [00:20:56] Yeah, we do.

Steve Docalavich: [00:20:57] … with those. I remember seeing my grandparents in a picture one time, they’re both wear the same jacket with those barrel buttons.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:03] No, we don’t do that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:21:04] No, I know, but I’m like, “How did they do that?” But I can see how it happens.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:07] Yeah, I really can.

Mike Blake: [00:21:09] Now, the other thing I’ve noticed is you guys laugh a lot.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:13] Yes. So-

Mike Blake: [00:21:13] And that’s not just an act, is it?

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:14] No. And that was probably, I would say, the first night that we had dinner together.

Steve Docalavich: [00:21:21] Whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you going with this?

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:22] Oh, stop it.

Mike Blake: [00:21:24] She said dinner.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:25] First night we had dinner together-

Steve Docalavich: [00:21:27] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:28] … we laughed the entire—I mean, it was constant the whole two hours that we had dinner together.

Steve Docalavich: [00:21:35] I’m a funny guy.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:36] That’s true.

Steve Docalavich: [00:21:37] Next question, Mike.

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:37] You won the lottery.

Mike Blake: [00:21:40] No. And I’m not trying to put anybody on the couch here, but that laughter, I think, is indicative of the kind of humor that you need to overcome the obstacle, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:54] Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:21:54] Because not everything has gone exactly the way that you wanted it to in business, correct?

Carol Docalavich: [00:21:59] For sure, this last six years. But yeah. Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:22:02] So talk about a crisis in business that you guys faced together.

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:09] Oh, God. Which one?

Mike Blake: [00:22:13] Well, you-

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:13] You want to pick a subject?

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:14] No.

Mike Blake: [00:22:15] I mean, the juicier, the better.

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:17] Yeah, I’m sure.

Mike Blake: [00:22:17] If there is a dead hooker involved, if you guys revisit that, go.

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:20] Well, Mike, I know I’ve told that joke to you in one of our meetings. I know for a fact-

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:24] Do not tell it.

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:25] I know, but I just know I told it to him and he’s acting like he’s so surprised, you never heard this before.

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:29] I’m sure you haven’t brought it up at Brady Ware.

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:30] Oh, my God. How many times have we had meetings?

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:34] Too many.

Mike Blake: [00:22:35] A lot.

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:36] We’ve had the same meeting 15 times, don’t tell me about it. I mean, because we come in there with same issue all the time.

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:42] Oh, God, so many crises. So, this has been the toughest business I’ve ever tried to learn to run.

Steve Docalavich: [00:22:49] Which one?

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:51] Being in transportation, period.

Mike Blake: [00:22:52] Okay.

Carol Docalavich: [00:22:53] You know, a lot of people that do this, they are brokers who worked for another broker who leave with a book of business. And pretty much even with my first husband, everything we did, we pretty much pioneered. They were, you know, new ideas or there wasn’t maybe just a couple of different companies doing it, but they were relatively pioneered industries. And so, this one, we were like, this one over here said, “Well, how hard could this be?” Yeah, famous last words.

Steve Docalavich: [00:23:21] I said that.

Carol Docalavich: [00:23:21] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:23:21] Right up there with, hold my beer, right?

Steve Docalavich: [00:23:23] Oh, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:23:23] Yeah, exactly.

Steve Docalavich: [00:23:25] Absolutely.

Carol Docalavich: [00:23:25] So, I think, you know, very first load we moved on the truckload side was a $40,000 claim. You are not prepared for that. I mean, you have no idea. We had no idea what we were doing. And my mentor said, “Good god, girl, can’t you started A, B and C, did you have to jump all the way to S?” You know, I mean, we literally, immediately, our first official day of business. I mean, we kind of been doing it for like a month trying to build up to getting business. So, I mean, that was the first one. And that was a real crisis, because you don’t know if you’re on the hook for that. And we didn’t know, are we on the hook for the 40 grand or, you know-

Steve Docalavich: [00:24:01] I knew.

Carol Docalavich: [00:24:02] God. But you did. You stepped us through all that. You figured out-

Steve Docalavich: [00:24:09] It wasn’t very difficult. I mean, the-

Carol Docalavich: [00:24:10] At first.

Steve Docalavich: [00:24:10] … carriers, you know, they’re the primary behind that. And it turned out fine. But yeah, we’ve had plenty of times in these two businesses that something hits the fan or whatever and you just got to deal with it. It’s a lot easier. I mean, I lean on her a lot. And then, you know, I’m the strong, silent type, because I don’t have much smart to say. And, you know, she appreciates that. You know, “Wow, you just-”

Mike Blake: [00:24:39] That didn’t stop me.

Steve Docalavich: [00:24:41] No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, she’s like, “Wow, you’re just such a rock and I can count on you to be-“, you know. I’m like, “I’m not saying anything because I don’t know what to say.” But she’s great at handling that kind of stuff and she points in the right direction and, you know, we go that way. There are no bones about who is the brains in the family. And I don’t want to say short bus, but I’m on a bus going somewhere. But no, you know, going back to what we’re talking about here, I enjoy being around my wife. We’re best friends and I don’t think that that’s going to change anytime soon.

Carol Docalavich: [00:25:19] Yeah. And I mean, you know, anytime you start a business, I mean, you know, like at any time in whether you buy one, whether you started from scratch or, you know, whatever you do, you know, there’s small crises almost every day, right? So, we deal with a lot of that. But, you know, he plays that part really well. But, you know, he is the person I go to and say, “All right. Hear me out. What do you think?” You know, he calls them at 3:00 o’clock in the morning, like I’ll say, “Are you up?”

Steve Docalavich: [00:25:51] That’s exactly what it is.

Carol Docalavich: [00:25:51] I’ll say-

Steve Docalavich: [00:25:51] That’s exactly what it is.

Carol Docalavich: [00:25:54] “Go make the coffee.”

Mike Blake: [00:25:55] “Are you up?”

Carol Docalavich: [00:25:56] “Are you up? Go make the coffee.” And it’s usually somewhere between 2 and 3 o’clock in the morning. We’ve had lots of those. You know, as you talk yourself through this and what you’re going to do and directions and he’s an excellent sounding board. And I usually come away from those talks with feeling really confident about the decision we’re going make. So-

Mike Blake: [00:26:18] And I got to imagine that air traffic control, everything else just must sort of pale in comparison, right? It’s about working processes.

Steve Docalavich: [00:26:27] Yeah. But, you know, it’s something that—the thing about that is it’s not the same every day, but, you know, it’s proceduralized to a point and then, there’s weather and then, there’s bad rides and then, there’s 9/11, right? There’s something. But otherwise, 99% of the time, it’s pretty proceduralized. You got guys coming in from here, they’re going there. There’s a profile that you need to create in your mind to keep them away from these guys that are going here, landing there, right? So, basically, everybody who’s entering your airspace is separated before they get there, because you have a plan. Not so much in the business world. I mean, it changes every day. You can proceduralize anything you want, but you can’t stop the wind from blowing, right?

Mike Blake: [00:27:11] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:11] It just depends.

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:13] Especially transportation.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:14] Yeah, especially transportation. It’s a-

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:15] I mean, it’s a combustible engine and a human being, you know. And I mean, we have little to-

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:22] Nothing could go wrong.

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:23] Yeah, nothing can go wrong. But, you know, I don’t know that there’s any one crisis that like jumps out. There’s just been, you know, you go left, you go right, you go left, you go right. You know, there isn’t really a day that I go home and go, “Oh, well, that was so smooth today.” And-

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:42] It’s all about the people you employ.

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:44] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:44] It really is in this business.

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:46] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:46] You know, people you don’t have to keep watching, right?

Mike Blake: [00:27:49] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:49] You can trust them, do your job.

Carol Docalavich: [00:27:51] And we do a pretty good job, I think, of bringing on solid people that support us.

Steve Docalavich: [00:27:56] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:27:58] So, let me switch gears here, has there ever been a point at which one of you has offered the other constructive criticism in the business area?

Carol Docalavich: [00:28:09] Oh, when we got here today.

Steve Docalavich: [00:28:11] Mike, that, no.

Mike Blake: [00:28:13] No?

Steve Docalavich: [00:28:13] The answer is no, I don’t, yes, she does.

Mike Blake: [00:28:16] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:28:16] Yes, it’s not constructive, it’s destructive. No, I’m just kidding.

Mike Blake: [00:28:22] No. But that’s going to come up, especially because I imagine it’s gone initially from you, Carol, to Steve, because you were new to business generally and new to her businesses, where she’s a veteran, right? And there’s the kick under the table. But besides the kicking under the table, I imagine there’s a debriefing like, “You understand why I kicked you under the table”, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:28:41] Oh, absolutely.

Steve Docalavich: [00:28:42] Well, I know before she does it that she’s going to do it. I’d block her. Now, she’ll call me into our office and shut the door. I mean, she’ll call me into her office and shut the door.

Carol Docalavich: [00:28:51] Oh, boy.

Steve Docalavich: [00:28:52] So, I’m just saying, what other couples do that? “Honey, I want you to come in my office. Shut the door.” What would your wife say to you if you did that to her? She goes, “Uh, no.”

Mike Blake: [00:29:03] Even on the end, you know, I should not say that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:29:06] Exactly. Exactly. I know you have a bleep button there. I was almost going to make you use it. But I do that. I understand that I don’t understand. You know, there are some things that I’m pretty good at and there’s some things that she’s really good at. And sometimes, she needs to talk to me about things that she’s good at.

Mike Blake: [00:29:27] And where do you think you complement each other most? What do you guys think the other one brings to the table that maybe you don’t bring to the table as well on your own?

Steve Docalavich: [00:29:39] She brings hard work, integrity, smarts, know-how, experience, and good cooking.

Carol Docalavich: [00:29:49] Not necessarily in that order.

Steve Docalavich: [00:29:50] Not necessarily in that order. Right. Not to mention the other stuff, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:29:55] I think where he really complements me is first of all, I keep it light all the time. 99% of the time, he’s always in a good mood. I mean, I would say, you know, he’s rarely not laughing. He’s rarely not making a joke.

Steve Docalavich: [00:30:11] A joke, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:30:11] And, you know, he’ll keep it where—you know, a lot of times I’ll spiral, you know. Entrepreneurs, you know.

Mike Blake: [00:30:18] It’s a very lonely place.

Carol Docalavich: [00:30:20] Yes, it is. We’re almost that, you know, that whole like cyclical, up and down.

Mike Blake: [00:30:25] Manic depressive, you know?

Carol Docalavich: [00:30:26] Yeah, I was trying not to say that word, but yeah, we are. And he’ll bring me out of those lows. That’s one of the things he where he really complements me. And he should’ve been a lawyer. He’s really excellent with understanding legal documents and-

Steve Docalavich: [00:30:42] I watch a lot of TV.

Carol Docalavich: [00:30:45] Play one on TV?

Steve Docalavich: [00:30:46] Yeah. And I watch a lot of TV.

Mike Blake: [00:30:46] Yeah. But I don’t remember William Shatner doing a lot of contract work on Boston Legal, so I’m not sure that you’ll love from there.

Steve Docalavich: [00:30:51] I’ve loved him on Boston Legal.

Mike Blake: [00:30:52] I do, too.

Steve Docalavich: [00:30:53] It’s awesome.

Mike Blake: [00:30:54] Full disclosure, I’m in the tank for William Shatner. I tell you, and I like Star Trek 5, but the reason I’m in the tank for William Shatner, he doesn’t run away from who he is, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:31:05] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:31:05] I don’t think he ever expected, certainly, not the last 40 years, never expected to earn an Oscar or an Emmy or whatever it is they give, right? But all he does is just consistently gets work, right?

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:17] He is hilarious. You know, he went from being a tough guy, right? Earlier on because he has like the John, everyone was a tough guy.

Mike Blake: [00:31:23] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:23] And now, he’s just kind of an old soft guy with. you know, opinions.

Mike Blake: [00:31:28] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:28] And that they’re funny. I love it.

Carol Docalavich: [00:31:31] So, there’s really not a contractor he handles all the legal side, most of the attorneys. You know, not you guys. I don’t let him do the finance side.

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:42] No. Wait a minute. Before you screw this whole thing up, we have attorneys, okay? We use a lot.

Carol Docalavich: [00:31:46] We do.

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:46] We use attorneys. She just brings stuff to me for my opinion and then, I work with the attorneys. But-

Carol Docalavich: [00:31:51] I said handle that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:31:51] Yeah. But I mean, there are things that I enjoy about that part of the work that it makes sense to me. It’s fun.

Carol Docalavich: [00:31:58] And that’s a big relief for me.

Mike Blake: [00:32:00] So, let’s talk about that, because sounds like you do divide and conquer a little bit.

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:03] Yeah, we do.

Mike Blake: [00:32:04] What are some areas where you divide and conquer? Saying, you know, Carol, you’re going to take A, B and C on, you’re going to take Q, R, and S on.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:12] She made me fire people.

Mike Blake: [00:32:14] You’re the hatchet man.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:16] So, you know, I was an air traffic controller for so long. And I was in management. I was a supervisor and I was like, “God, I just wish that we could fire somebody.” Yeah, I think it’s the worst attitude. But, you know, when I was a controller, I had the worst attitude in the world. So, if I was my supervisor, I would want to fire me. So, I made this remark to her and she goes, “Fine. Well, you’re going to fire someone.” And I fired somebody. I’ve never felt so bad in my life.

Mike Blake: [00:32:38] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:38] And now, if anybody needs to be fired, I don’t fire them. We give that to somebody else.

Mike Blake: [00:32:43] Really?

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:44] Yeah, I got what I asked for and it’s no fun.

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:46] No, it’s no fun.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:47] It’s no fun.

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:49] No. Well, it’s not like that happens a lot, but-

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:52] No, no, no. I’m just saying, you made me fire people-

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:54] Well, you said you wanted to.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:54] … just to show me what it felt like to fire people.

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:57] Yeah, like it’s-

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:57] It is not any fun.

Carol Docalavich: [00:32:58] No, you’re changing people’s lives.

Steve Docalavich: [00:32:59] Yeah, you are. Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:00] So, I mean, you pretty much run anything that has to do with the truckload side.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:06] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:08] So, he takes over especially all the operational side of that, not the sales side.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:13] I’m the visionary, you’re LTL. I started all that.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:15] Actually was your idea.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:16] That’s right. It’s all my idea.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:18] It goes back to you saying you don’t-

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:18] I just don’t know how to implement it. Like I said, I’m an idea guy.

Mike Blake: [00:33:21] Ok

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:21] ay. We’re going to the moon next week, building a rocket.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:27] You know, his transparency, all, you know, the stuff we talked to you about. You know, the whole transparency truly being-.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:32] If there are any shippers out there, we are the only transparent-

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:34] Broker.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:36] … 3PL-

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:37] Yeah, 3PL.

Steve Docalavich: [00:33:37] … in the nation. So, there you go.

Carol Docalavich: [00:33:39] But yeah. And I think probably, I run the business, I do all the finance side, salespeople, you know, that sort of thing. And I think we know our roles. You know, we come in, it’s not like every day like he comes to me and says, “What do I do today?” He gets to work three hours before I do. So, yeah, I think now, it’s more or less, we just kind of know what we’re going to do.

Mike Blake: [00:34:07] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:07] I think at first, he really looked for direction, “What do you need me to do? What he needs me to do? What do you want me to take care of?” He doesn’t do that now. I mean, he acts like he, you know, comes to me for direction, he does not. He comes to me after he’s done it and I got to clean it up.

Mike Blake: [00:34:21] After eight years, you know what it’s going to be, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:23] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:34:24] It’s unlikely you’re going to walk in and say, “You know what, I need you to kill somebody today. I need you to kill a man”, right? You’re not sort of expecting that kind of pivot, right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:34] No.

Mike Blake: [00:34:34] So, did anything surprise you about working together as co-founders, co-entrepreneurs, either on the positive or negative side?

Steve Docalavich: [00:34:43] She has less respect for air traffic controllers now, I think, is-

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:45] I would say that’s probably-

Mike Blake: [00:34:45] Right. She won’t be flying anymore?

Steve Docalavich: [00:34:48] We take the bus everywhere and rightly so.

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:51] Yeah. So, after I met him and I met a bunch of his friends, which I love, if you knew, you guys are listening, you know I love you.

Steve Docalavich: [00:34:57] They’re not listening to this one though.

Carol Docalavich: [00:34:59] But we left and I was like, “Holy crap, I don’t want to get on an airplane.”

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:07] I was down in Atlanta Center in Hampton and I would let her come to—and that’s the largest aircraft trove solely in the world, busiest, biggest, and all that stuff. I wouldn’t bring her there until after we were married. And she said, “Why?” And I said, “Because they’re all a bunch of jerks and they’re all going to make up stories and tell you, you know, I dated dudes and stuff and, you know, it’s just going to be a terrible experience and I want to be married to you before that happens.”

Mike Blake: [00:35:36] They’re going to talk to you about the time that you landed two 747s naked, basically.

Carol Docalavich: [00:35:40] Yeah, exactly.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:40] Well, that happened.

Mike Blake: [00:35:42] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:42] That’s true. Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:35:42] How truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:45] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:35:45] Yeah, true.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:46] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:35:47] But yeah. So, I mean, I don’t know, really. You’re better at the storytelling than I am.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:53] I don’t remember what you’re talking about, what was it?

Mike Blake: [00:35:55] No, it doesn’t matter.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:55] What was the direction, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:35:56] Doesn’t matter.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:57] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:35:57] You always go off on a story about you.

Steve Docalavich: [00:35:58] Well, I almost went to a dead hooker joke, but-

Mike Blake: [00:36:04] So, everybody, you’re listening to the Dead Hooker podcast and we’re here with Carol and Steve.

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:09] That’s right. If you like, subscribe and thumbs up.

Mike Blake: [00:36:11] Yeah, at deadhooker.com.

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:13] That’s right. I got that, by the way.

Mike Blake: [00:36:15] Do you really?

Carol Docalavich: [00:36:15] Don’t.

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:15] No, it’s deadhooker.co, because somebody else has it.

Mike Blake: [00:36:17] So, you know, somebody is listening and they’re now typing, “I got to see if that domain is available.” I can only get deadhooker.biz.

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:23] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:36:24] Oh, man. That’s the lamest one.

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:27] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:36:27] Are there any mistakes you made early on that you need to learn from?

Carol Docalavich: [00:36:33] I mean, my list would be really long. You mean as a married couple or just-

Mike Blake: [00:36:36] Yeah, as a married couple in business. I mean, we don’t need to get into the personal stuff, but-

Carol Docalavich: [00:36:39] No, I meant like business-

Steve Docalavich: [00:36:39] Opening up the property management company to bring on those international buyers because we’re just selling to them. You know, that was probably—only because of the way that it happened. It was not a great transition. You know, we got 300 and something houses and we didn’t know who was in them. We didn’t know if they had agreements. We didn’t know where they were. I mean, the-

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:02] We didn’t know if they had mold.

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:03] … turnover, and a lot of them didn’t, some of the houses weren’t even there, was not orderly. It was painful, to say the least.

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:15] Very painful.

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:15] It took us six months to get our feet up under us. I mean, they just said, “Here you go.” And none of it was correct. There’d be different people in houses. We had squatters. I mean, it was horrible. That was one big thing. So, we should have just kept selling them stuff instead of trying to manage their stuff.

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:33] Yeah. I don’t know. As far as where it relates just to a married couple working together, I mean, the first year was tough.

Mike Blake: [00:37:40] Why?

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:41] Because my wife was alive, my ex-wife, I’m sorry. My ex-wife was alive and she had a telephone.

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:47] I’m talking about-

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:48] And she would call-

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:48] I’m not talking about that.

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:49] Okay. Never mind. Disregard that last.

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:52] I was talking about as a married couple working together, not personal stuff.

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:56] Okay. Sorry.

Carol Docalavich: [00:37:57] That’s not what he wants to know about.

Mike Blake: [00:37:57] Yeah, we’re not putting you on the couch.

Steve Docalavich: [00:37:58] Nobody’s listening to this. Go ahead.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:01] Well, you know, he’s a big personality, as you might have noticed.

Steve Docalavich: [00:38:05] No, I’m not.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:05] And I have a pretty big personality.

Mike Blake: [00:38:08] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:08] And he did not take direction very well the first year.

Steve Docalavich: [00:38:15] So, you’re saying I’ve learned?

Mike Blake: [00:38:16] So, at some point, did you ever say to him, “Is it that you can’t learn or that you won’t learn?”

Steve Docalavich: [00:38:23] That was that was outside just a few minutes ago, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:26] Yeah, there was several of those conversations. It was like, “Look, you know, if you want to do this, you really got to take direction. And I know you don’t-” You know, I mean, his mother told me, “This one doesn’t mind. He doesn’t do well.” I said, “It’s not about minding.” I need him to just understand the process. And he would just, you know, go off on his own and make a decision and-

Mike Blake: [00:38:48] Right.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:48] Remember the one renter?

Steve Docalavich: [00:38:50] I got a story after this. That’s where you beat me up. Go ahead. Go ahead. No. Have at it.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:55] So, that was really it. He just really couldn’t take direction very well.

Mike Blake: [00:38:59] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:38:59] Yeah. Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:38:59] That took a while.

Mike Blake: [00:38:59] Okay.

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:00] Okay.

Carol Docalavich: [00:39:00] All right. Go ahead. What’s your story?

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:01] I don’t have one. I was just kidding.

Carol Docalavich: [00:39:02] Yeah, exactly.

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:02] It was a threat. It was a baseless threat.

Mike Blake: [00:39:05] Okay.

Carol Docalavich: [00:39:05] So, there is a quick renter story. So, when we first started, he was like, “Oh, I’m going to handle the renters, I think you’re a little hard, you know, a little harsh on them.” And I said, “Okay.” So, he, you know, calls her and she gives him the story, right? Like I-

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:20] Okay. First, that was a terrible setup for the story. So, the story is-.

Carol Docalavich: [00:39:24] See, that’s what he does, takes it.

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:25] Yeah. Yeah. So, the story is that, you know, we had not that many houses, but we had some renters that were a little bit late with their rent and we took over. So, I said, “Why do we have a management company? We’ll do it ourselves. We’ll manage.” So-

Carol Docalavich: [00:39:35] Yeah, “How hard can this be?”

Steve Docalavich: [00:39:36] Yeah. So, we were managing all her houses and this one lady, “Oh, well, my dog just died and everything, you know, everybody died.” And I said, “Honey, we can’t kick her out. Everything just died. I mean, her plants died, her dog. We can’t do that.” So, come to find out her dog was fine, her plants were fine, she just didn’t want to pay. And so, it just took a little longer to evict her than them, but I was just a soft touch.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:01] Oh, God.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:01] Because I didn’t think anybody ever lied.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:03] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:04] Right?

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:04] Yeah. I’m not quite—and so-

Mike Blake: [00:40:06] Not in real estate.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:08] No.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:08] No. No, not renters.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:10] But what was really funny is we were in the car, on the phone, going down to look at houses.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:14] Yeah. I remember that, yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:15] Yeah. And I said-

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:16] I was almost crying at her story, I swear.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:20] He was literally-

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:20] I said, “Honey, we can’t kick her out. All these things just died.”

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:24] And I said, “Honey, I want to show you something.” I said, “This is the second month her dad has died.” And he said, “Oh, my God.”

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:31] You need the bleep button again.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:33] Like literally. He goes, “I just fell for that.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but-”

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:37] I’m such a sucker.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:39] He was a sucker.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:39] Yeah.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:39] So, that was some of the stuff that was tough.

Mike Blake: [00:40:41] He’s a softy.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:42] Yeah, he is.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:42] Yeah, I am a big softy.

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:45] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:45] But we did evict the hell out of her.

Mike Blake: [00:40:48] Well, at least, there was a happy ending to the whole story.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:50] Yes, there was a happy ending in this. Right. We kicked her out and her children.

Mike Blake: [00:40:53] Good.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:54] And I think we killed her dog, I’m not sure. I’m just-

Carol Docalavich: [00:40:56] No, we didn’t. No.

Mike Blake: [00:40:56] One way or the other, something was dying.

Steve Docalavich: [00:40:59] No, I love dogs.

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:00] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:00] But her kids, they were out.

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:03] Yeah.

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:03] I love dogs.

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:03] But he’s good at taking direction now.

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:05] Yes, ma’am.

Mike Blake: [00:41:08] Guys, this has been a great interview. We’re running out of time. We needed to get you onto your weekend, but-

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:13] Mike, if you have to leave, we’ll continue. I don’t know, you know-

Mike Blake: [00:41:16] Oh, well, you know what-

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:17] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:41:17] … you ask me questions. Now, we do need to wrap it up and let you guys get back to your businesses and your lives and your weekend, but I can’t thank you enough for agreeing to come on. If somebody is kind of thinking about this, that they’re thinking of going into business as a married couple, I mean, it sounds like you guys are a great example of what to do, can they contact you guys for advice?

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:42] Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:42] They can call Carol. Her number is—it’s carol@-

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:49] Which one?

Steve Docalavich: [00:41:50] I don’t know. Which one?

Carol Docalavich: [00:41:50] Yeah, seriously, they can, I mean, use my carol@yourltl.com or the office number is 619—what is it? I always give my cell phone, because I’m always on the phone. 619-.

Steve Docalavich: [00:42:05] 678.

Carol Docalavich: [00:42:05] … 678-

Steve Docalavich: [00:42:07] Follow this, 678-619-4316 and then, follow the prompts to Carol.

Carol Docalavich: [00:42:13] There you go.

Mike Blake: [00:42:14] There you go.

Steve Docalavich: [00:42:14] Steve is not on there.

Mike Blake: [00:42:16] And you may have to put on a little prompt in your IVR for marriage counselling.

Steve Docalavich: [00:42:20] Yes.

Carol Docalavich: [00:42:20] Yeah, exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:42:20] Press 7.

Carol Docalavich: [00:42:21] Yeah, exactly.

Steve Docalavich: [00:42:23] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:42:23] That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Carol and Steve so much for joining us and sharing their expertise with us. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 48: Should I Hire a Business Development Professional? – An Interview with Susan O’Dwyer, Aprio, and Ann McDonald, Morris Manning & Martin, LLP

January 23, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 48: Should I Hire a Business Development Professional? - An Interview with Susan O'Dwyer, Aprio, and Ann McDonald, Morris Manning & Martin, LLP

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 48: Should I Hire a Business Development Professional? – An Interview with Susan O’Dwyer, Aprio, and Ann McDonald, Morris Manning & Martin, LLP

What qualities should I look for in a business development professional? What makes a business development professional successful? The answers to these questions and much more come in this discussion with two accomplished business development professionals: Susan O’Dwyer, Aprio, and Ann McDonald, Morris Manning & Martin, LLP. “Decision Vision” is hosted by Mike Blake and presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Susan O’Dwyer, Aprio

Susan O’Dwyer is Director of Corporate Citizenship and Community Relations at Aprio. Susan’s specialty lies in the technology and venture capital industries, two industries that go together hand-in-hand. She is known throughout the Atlanta business community for her passion for connections, which resulted in Susan being recognized as one of the Top 50 women you need to know in Atlanta by the Atlanta Business Chronicle, as one of the 100 most influential people in the tech community and as a finalist for the 2012 Turknett Leadership Character Awards.

Some of her affiliations include the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, Board Member of the Ron Clark Academy, and the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce’s Technology Marketing Committee’s Venture Capital Program Chairperson. In addition, Susan and her son led efforts for relief for Tuscaloosa, Alabama, after their devastating tornadoes in 2011.

Since their founding in 1952, Aprio has grown to be the largest independent, full-service CPA-led professional services firm based in Atlanta, Georgia. Their over 450 partners and associates provide their best thinking and personal commitment to every client, demonstrating a passion for their work that fuels client success.

Aprio provides advisory, assurance, tax, cloud accounting and private client services across a variety of sectors, including insurance, manufacturing and distribution, non-profit, education, professional services, real estate, construction, retail, franchise, hospitality, technology, and biosciences.

You can find Susan on LinkedIn, and for more information on Aprio, go to their website.

Ann McDonald, Morris, Manning & Martin, LLP

Ann McDonald is a Director of Business Development of Corporate Technology and Healthcare IT at Morris, Manning & Martin, LLP. Prior to Morris Manning, Ann was been a regional sales director at INVeSHARE, a managing consultant for Gallup Organization, and vice president of marketing, e-commerce and various roles at Walsh Healthcare Solutions for over 10 years. Some of Ann’s affiliations’ activities include Chair of the Board of Directors of the Technology Executives Roundtable, member of the Board of Directors of the FinTech Society, the Technology Association of Georgia, member of the Board of Directors at the Southeastern Software Association of the Technology Association of Georgia, and past chair of the Southeast Medical Device Association Annual Conference.

Morris, Manning & Martin is an American law 200 law firm with national and international reach. They dedicate themselves to the constant pursuit of their clients’ success. To provide their clients with optimal value, they combined market-leading legal services with a total understanding of their needs to maximize effectiveness, efficiency, and opportunity. Morris Manning enjoys national prominence for its real estate, corporate litigation, technology, health care, intellectual property, energy and infrastructure capital markets, environmental, international trade, and insurance practices. Morris Manning has offices in Atlanta, Raleigh-Durham, Savannah, Columbus, GA, Washington, DC, and Beijing.

You can find Ann on LinkedIn, and for more information on Morris Manning, go to their website.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Mike Blake: [00:01:02] So, today, we’re going to talk about hiring a dedicated business development professional. And I started to become interested in this topic a couple of years ago when I read a book called Built to Sell. And I forget who wrote it but if you Google it, you’ll find it. And if you’re interested in kind of the process of building a business that has value that can be sold and monetized, I highly recommend it as it is not a technical book.

Mike Blake: [00:01:29] In fact, it’s basically a book that sets up a hypothetical marketing services firm and walks through the conversations that take place to understand where value comes from and what it takes to build a business to sell it. And one of the things that struck me about one of the pieces of advice they give in that book is, does your company have the ability to sell when the owner themselves is not doing the selling?

Mike Blake: [00:01:57] And I think that’s a really smart point, because if the revenue is primarily dependent upon the owner, then when the owner sells and drops her keys off and they move to a condo in Costa Rica, then, you know, what value remains in the business? Perhaps some, but not a whole lot. And so, what I found myself doing as I appraise businesses myself and as I advise people on building their businesses and preparing to sell them is to think about very early, you know, how can you create systems and resources and processes and assets that generate revenue when you’re away, right?

Mike Blake: [00:02:38] And the litmus test, I often ask people and I’ll ask this in a management interview, you know, if you go away and you’re abroad and your cellphone breaks for six weeks, what happens to your business? And sometimes, yeah, the business is great. In other times as well, I probably don’t have a business when I come back. And that’s very telling. And typically, the reason that you don’t have a business when you come back is because you don’t have somebody that is a full-time salesperson.

Mike Blake: [00:03:06] So, to me, that’s a very important inflection point. Now, here’s the challenge and the other reason I think this is a very interesting topic, as I approach my 50th trip around the sun here, I’ve seen a lot of salespeople come and go in a number of roles, a number of places where I’ve been, where there’s been services, venture capital, technology, and so forth. And one conclusion I’ve drawn over the years is I think that the hardest role to hire for in any company is sales.

Mike Blake: [00:03:41] And the reason I think that is, you know, not only because I’ve seen a pretty high failure rate over the years, but because quite candidly, salespeople may not necessarily be successful selling what they’re supposed to sell, but they’re often very good at selling themselves. And so, as a business owner, how do you kind of cut through the veneer and the facade and find out not only can that person sell, are they willing to sell? It’s amazing.

Mike Blake: [00:04:13] If you read sales books, you’ll read about how salespeople themselves are reluctant to sell, right? It’s something called call reluctance and so forth. And that’s what they signed up for. But it’s still hard to get salespeople to do that. So, you know, step one is the side that you want to have a dedicated business development person. Second then is, how do you make an assessment as to whether or not that person can and is actually willing to do what is asked of them in that role?

Mike Blake: [00:04:40] And then, third and finally and I see this in professional services, how do you hire somebody and structure that role? So that if you’re not a practitioner, you can still have success in that role. And I being in the accounting industry, we’re certainly guilty of this. It’s tempting to fall into the trap of saying, well, you know, unless you can give technical advice on the spot, you can’t possibly sell. It has to be someone that’s a really good account lawyer, business appraiser, foundation repair specialist, whatever it is, but that’s not necessarily the case.

Mike Blake: [00:05:22] I’m not saying that’s easy. It’s hard, but there’s a big difference between hard and impossible. So, I hope with that preamble, I’ve convinced you that this is a rich topic. And if you’re a business owner and executive decision maker, I think you’re going to learn a lot today from the two guests that we have. So, without further ado, I’d like to introduce our guests. And these are two people that have been good friends of mine in the community for a very long time.

Mike Blake: [00:05:51] I consider them not only friends, but I consider them the mentors. And often, even if I don’t necessarily speak with them as often as I would like, I think of them a lot, especially when I have a decision that I have to make, I think. And I ask myself, you know, what would they do? If I were talking to them, what would they say? And I know them well enough that I know what they’re going to say. If I have to ask the question, I’ve already failed.

Mike Blake: [00:06:12] So, first up, in no particular order, then I just simply decide to write these bios in that order is my dear friend Susan O’Dwyer, who is a Director at Aprio, which of whom I’m an alumnus and they’re are friendly competitor of ours and is a Director of Corporate Citizenship and Community Relations. Aprio is a premier CPA-led professional services firm, where thriving associates serve thriving clients. And on a side note, I’ve always thought that re-branding is fantastic and very effective.

Mike Blake: [00:06:43] Their purpose is clear. They advise clients that they can achieve what’s next, whatever that may be. Since its founding in 1952, Aprio has grown to be the largest independent full-service CPA-led professional services firm based in Atlanta, Georgia. They have over 450 partners and associates that provide their best thinking and personal commitment to every client demonstrating a passion for their work that fuels their client’s success. Susan’s specialty lies in the technology and venture capital industries.

Mike Blake: [00:07:09] And she’s one of the founders of something called Shaking the Money Tree from PWC. And if you’ve ever read or relied upon that publication, that is at least, in part, her brainchild. So, thank her. She’s known throughout the Atlanta business community for her passion for connections, which resulted in Susan being recognized one of the top 50 women you need to know in Atlanta by the Atlanta Business Chronicle as one of the 100 most influential people in the tech community and as a finalist for the 2012 Turknett Leadership Character Awards.

Mike Blake: [00:07:41] As a director of corporate citizenship and community relations, Susan access the main point of coordination regarding civic and community activities throughout the firm. Her role is to maintain open communication with civic leaders and community partners, creating goodwill on behalf of Aprio. So, having read that, why is she here? Well, before she took that role, she was a director of business development I’m guessing for about seven or eight years or so-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:08:03] Eleven….

Mike Blake: [00:08:04] … where frankly, she kicked butt. And then, she was later promoted into this particular role. But don’t let the kind face fool you, she understands her stuff. Some of her affiliations are the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, the Ron Clark Academy, where she’s a board member and a big cheerleader for that organization, the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce’s Technology Marketing Committee’s Venture Capital Program chairperson. And she and her son also led efforts for relief for Tuscaloosa, Alabama, after their devastating tornadoes in 2011. And I wish we had time because I would love to get her to talk about her Lady Gaga story, which I tell all the time and it just bust a gut. But maybe, we’ll have to have her back for a second podcast. So, Susan, thanks for coming on the program.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:08:52] Thank you for having me, Mike. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Mike Blake: [00:08:55] And sitting to her left is my other dear friend, Ann McDonald, who is Director of Business Development of Corporate Technology and HealthcareIT at Morris, Manning & Martin, a role she has held for 13 years. Like Susan, Ann is one of the most respected people in the Atlanta technology community. Morris, Manning & Martin is an American law 200 law firm with national and international reach. They dedicate themselves to the constant pursuit of their clients’ success.

Mike Blake: [00:09:20] To provide their clients with optimal value, they combined market-leading legal services with a total understanding of their needs to maximize effectiveness, efficiency, and opportunity. Morris Manning enjoys national prominence for its real estate, corporate litigation, technology, health care, intellectual property, energy and infrastructure capital markets, environmental, international trade, and insurance practices. Basically, everything. Morris Manning has offices in and around Atlanta, Raleigh, Durham, Savannah and Washington, D.C. Man, I would love a chance to tour the Savannah office, I love that city.

Mike Blake: [00:09:51] Prior to the role at Morris Manning, Ann has been a regional sales director at INVeSHARE, a managing consultant for Gallup Organization and vice president of marketing, e-commerce and various roles at Walsh Healthcare Solutions for over 10 years. Some of Ann’s affiliations’ activities include chair of the Board of Directors of Technology Executives Roundtable, member of the Board of Directors of the FinTech Society, the Technology Association of Georgia, member of the Board of Directors at the Southeastern Software Association of the Technology Association of Georgia, and past chair of the Southeast Medical Device Association Annual Conference. Ann, thanks for coming on.

Ann McDonald: [00:10:26] Thank you.

Mike Blake: [00:10:27] So, you guys are pretty busy, so thank you for finding time to come on the program and come out here to be on it. Asking people to travel in Atlanta is in itself a big ask. So, Ann, let me start with you. I mean, we’ve done sort of the formal introductions, but how would you describe your role at Morris Manning? When you do your own elevator pitch, what do you say?

Ann McDonald: [00:10:49] Well, let’s look at, what do I get paid to do?

Mike Blake: [00:10:54] Okay.

Ann McDonald: [00:10:54] So, I can tell you my title, but really, I get paid to help bring in new clients. And that’s through lead generation. It’s meeting with referral sources, strategic partners, it’s being part of technology, the technology ecosystem and community to meet companies and refer those companies into our firm for legal services.

Mike Blake: [00:11:18] And Susan, how about you? And let’s talk more. I’d like to start with your current role and then, kind of go back to your prior role in terms of business development. How do you describe your current role at Aprio?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:11:29] So, my current role is to identify nonprofits where we can make a difference through my colleagues’ financial background by serving on those boards. And as a result, further our reach, our footprint across the community and identify new opportunities where we might not have met those executives in their role as a CEO or CFO of whatever company it is, but instead, through a mutual-shared passion for whatever the cause of the nonprofit is, people have the opportunity to connect.

Mike Blake: [00:12:05] And before that, you were director of business development and you were the grand poobah of sales for-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:12:13] Hardly.

Mike Blake: [00:12:13] … Aprio, formerly known as Habif, Arogeti & Wynne, talk about that role.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:12:18] So, that role started because the firm realized that if they were going to grow the way they wanted to at the time that I joined the firm 12 years ago, I don’t think there were even 100 people there. And if the firm wanted to grow the way they wanted to, they’re going to need to cast a much wider net. So, I was recommended to the firm and joined to open doors that they had not even thought to knock on before. My Rolodex is very different than the Rolodex of the people that were already there. My job is not to supplant the partners, my job still is to supplement what they are working, who they were working with by identifying just like an additional client, prospects referral sources that can bring new business to the firm.

Mike Blake: [00:13:13] And to be clear, Susan, you’re not an accountant and you’re not a lawyer, correct?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:13:18] That’s correct. CPA is just three letters in the alphabet to me. No, I’m not an accountant.

Mike Blake: [00:13:22] Yeah. And same here, right? I tell people, if I answer an accounting question, it’s instantly a malpractice. I don’t even do my own taxes. So, as non-practitioners, how do you think that impacted or impacts your ability to communicate the value of what you’re selling to the marketplace? Do you think that gives you a different perspective that is helpful? Do you think it holds you back in some way? What do you guys think? Ann, why don’t you start?

Ann McDonald: [00:13:53] Okay. Well, I have a background in business and I’ve, as you said, never worked for a law firm before. But when I talk to companies, I talk about their business with them, ask them questions about it, and find out what their needs are and then, refer them to the subject matter expert within our firm who can help their businesses grow through legal practices. Also, one of the things that I do is to help prevent the value-added services that we’re known for.

Ann McDonald: [00:14:30] So, I leverage my network of relationships to help that company grow as one of our clients. So, it could be introductions to sources of capital, it could be introductions to organizations where they will meet prospects, strategic partners of their own and then, also introduce them to potential clients who are also clients of ours. So, those are things that don’t have to do with providing legal services, but it’s a value add for our clients.

Mike Blake: [00:15:08] And Susan, how about yourself? Was not being a CPA, that gives you any kind of advantage in the market? And were there times where you felt like maybe it held you back in some way?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:15:21] So, I was a journalism major. I never took a class in business in my life. But what I was taught was how to get the story out of a person so that we could tell it to our readers. Okay. So, I ask a lot of questions. I don’t talk a lot other than to ask questions. And as Ann suggested, that’s really just to identify what colleague would be the best source of answer for whatever it is their question is. In some ways, I think it’s been a benefit not being an accountant, because I don’t have a clue what the answer is. So, I can really focus on figuring out what their question is.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:16:01] Sometimes, the client doesn’t exactly know, but by me rephrasing back to them what I hear them saying, sometimes, we’ve redirected what it was they thought they needed to something else. The other thing I would say is that I obviously can’t speak for lawyers, but for the accountants that I work with, sometimes, I think they can be very focused on what it is they know, but they’re not so comfortable with maybe what our other colleagues do. So, it’s being able to recognize opportunity for anybody in the firm as just opposed to what it is they specifically are able to do, which means we have a lot better shot of bringing them in as a client.

Mike Blake: [00:16:49] And that’s something. So, I want to follow-up on that. When you’re a practitioner and I am a practitioner, it is easy to fall into the trap that no matter what you see, it looks like something you do, right? There’s a saying that when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? So, if I was an auditor and I’m talking to a potential client, then I’m thinking in terms of, how would an audit help this client, right?

Mike Blake: [00:17:15] Because that’s how I’m wired. Not that you’re a bad person, but that’s just sort of what your world view is, whereas the proper treatment of that conversation is to probe and maybe audit falls out of that, maybe tax falls out of that, maybe something entirely different falls out of that. And as more of a generalist, if I can use that for lack of a better term, that positions you and empowers you to, I guess, becoming more broadly curious.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:17:42] The other thing I would say is that, well, it’s my job to help identify what the issue is and who the right subject matter expert is. I don’t have to know how to do what it is the subject matter experts do, I just have to listen for what are the trigger words for opportunity for every single line of service or business skill set that we have and then, be able to direct them to that. So, I can give you an example if you would like.

Mike Blake: [00:18:14] Yeah. Great. We love war stories.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:18:15] Okay. So, I am sitting at a table for a dinner that has assigned seats at a nonprofit that I’ve been on the board of for 20-something years. And I sit next to a person who I have no idea how I miss this man, but in 20-something years, I’ve never, ever laid eyes on him. And I asked him about what he did and how long he’d been involved in the organization, so and so forth. And he tells me about his company. It’s a software company.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:18:39] And almost as a throwaway line, the very last thing that he says to me after he’s described his company is, “We just invested $5 million in a new software that we’re going to be rolling out to our clients, which are national in the next couple of months.” And I said, “Oh, did you get the R&D tax credit?” He said, “I don’t know what that is.” And I said, “Well, the State will give you money back if your developers are in Georgia.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:19:06] So, if you send the work to be done in another country or another state, they’re not going to pay, but if it’s here in Georgia-” He says, “Well, yeah. It’s here in Georgia”, and he named the town. And he said, “Tell me more.” And I said, “I have just told you everything I know about it. But tomorrow morning, I can have one of my colleagues, we have 25 people who specialize in this area help you. Here’s my number, call me at 8 o’clock.” Okay. I don’t ever have a problem finding a colleague who’s available for an opportunity-

Mike Blake: [00:19:37] Yeah. Sure.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:19:37] Okay. That’s not a problem.

Mike Blake: [00:19:37] Yeah.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:19:39] So, I didn’t have to know how to do the tax credit study, I just had to recognize the opportunity when he said we just invested $5 million.

Mike Blake: [00:19:49] Yeah.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:19:49] So-

Mike Blake: [00:19:51] Okay. So, Ann, I want to ask you this question, Susan touched upon this about five minutes ago, but I’m curious and I’ve never asked kind of your origin story, how did you come to land at Morris Manning?

Ann McDonald: [00:20:04] Well, it’s interesting. I came to Atlanta in 2004. I worked for the Gallup Organization as a consultant and executive coach. And then, I was here for about a year working for Gallup, then was attracted to another startup in the FinTech area and worked there for about a year. And I work for John Yates and a friend of John’s who I also knew had heard that John was looking for someone who had sales background and was not an attorney, but understood the sales process. And so, he put us together and I interviewed with John and he was looking for someone. So, that’s how it happened.

Mike Blake: [00:20:56] And why did you feel, at that time, that that was a good role for you, that that was a platform where you could be successful?

Ann McDonald: [00:21:04] That’s interesting, because I don’t know that I could ever do that for another law firm. It was John. John Yates’ personality, is how dynamic he ran his sales processes. It was operated more like a real corporation rather than sort of a slow process. I was used to very fast, very successful operations. And it was the way he viewed the market. Also, the way they view their clients. This group is much more than a transactional law firm, they believe in relationships. And look at new clients or look at all the clients as, “How can I make your business grow? What can I do to help you in areas other than, ‘Well, just call us when you need a transaction of some means.'” So, that was a big difference and the reason I was attracted to working for an industry that was foreign to me.

Mike Blake: [00:22:20] So, an interesting thing that’s already emerging is you two likes to ask a lot of questions.

Ann McDonald: [00:22:27] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:22:27] Right? And I think that’s an important point. It gets back to, how do you interview somebody for a role like this? We both know there are people out in the marketplace that sell by telling basically.

Ann McDonald: [00:22:40] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:22:40] Right? And, you know, maybe the 1960s and ’70s, there’s some effectiveness to that, but I’m not sure that’s very successful-

Ann McDonald: [00:22:48] No.

Mike Blake: [00:22:50] … today. And I think that most people I observe who try to sell by telling, I think you get some people that bite on that, but I think that the success rate is a lot less. So, is it fair to say that if I’m looking to hire somebody like you, probing for somebody that likes to ask a lot of questions might be a good thing to look for? Is that fair?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:23:11] Not only is it fair, but I think maybe another way to say it, Mike, is it’s far better to be someone who is interested and interesting. I don’t ever want to make it about me. I was going to make it about the other person. And so, I’m not the story. My colleagues are the story. But in order to get the story, I have to find out what it is that person really needs. And like I said before, sometimes, the prospect doesn’t even know exactly what it is they need or they think they know what they need. But by asking of questions, you find out that that’s maybe not exactly what the issue is.

Mike Blake: [00:23:50] And, you know, talk about that journalism background being helpful, right? I mean, journalism is the practice of asking questions often from people who don’t want to answer questions.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:24:00] Well, I try not to be Mike Wallace.

Mike Blake: [00:24:01] Right.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:24:04] But-

Mike Blake: [00:24:04] So, let me go back, too, because Ann said something that segues nicely into this. You know, you’re successful. I know how successful you were and have been at Aprio. And I’m curious, what about that platform, when you’re in that role, puts you in a position to be successful? And I ask that because if I’m a listener, I’m thinking, gee, I’d love somebody like Susan or Ann to come to my company, but it’s just not to hire, I think I’ve got to create an environment for them to be successful.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:24:35] So, the way a public accounting firm works is that there are X number of partners that are all co-owners of the firm. And at Aprio, the way it works is there is a place for partners who, obviously, they’re all very good technically, but some of them are just more outgoing than others. So, it kind of became accepted practice that some of them were very, very good at rainmaking and others would probably rather eat a box of rocks than have to go out and talk to, you know, prospects.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:25:11] So, because I just have never really been afraid of talking to people I don’t know, it doesn’t scare me, my role was to open doors where they hadn’t been before. We had a technology practice. They didn’t know before I came very many venture capitalists. Interestingly enough, venture capital was kind of maybe is not as strong today as private equity was, but 20-something years ago, that was the flip. And so, because of my prior role, I knew a lot of those people.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:25:56] And it was just a question of trading on your name, honestly, to open doors for the new firm. And if you do what you say you’re going to do. Even if people know she’s a salesperson, but they don’t view me that way because they view me as, when I call them, I’m calling them with something for them, usually not asking for something. In this case, I was asking for a meeting to make an introduction and all that could come from it would be more business for both sides, right? So, it’s a win-win.

Mike Blake: [00:26:33] Yeah.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:26:34] So, that’s what I did was I just opened doors. And I had had a 20-plus-year career at one big four firm before I came to Aprio and before that, a 10-year career at another big four firm. So, I’ve always been a words person in the number’s world.

Mike Blake: [00:26:52] So, in those firms that you worked in, was there anything they did or maybe could have done better to put you in a position to be more successful? And I’ve asked that question because I’d like to try to drill down to if one of our listeners decides that they want to go the route of hiring somebody like you or maybe it doesn’t matter, maybe I’m asking a question that I think I know the answer to and I actually don’t, does it matter? Or, is hiring the right person with the right approach, with the right Rolodex so important that maybe it’s just, get out of their way and let them do their thing?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:27:31] So, to answer a couple questions or comments that you’ve made, the first is I made sure it was never about me. It’s always about helping others. And you alluded to the fact that there’s been a very high turnover rate among salespeople, typically. I think there are some people that want it to be about them. I didn’t know that there was an expression. I mean, this was 30-something years ago, which I don’t know that had been exactly coined yet or I hadn’t heard it called servant leadership.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:28:03] It’s never about me, it’s always about taking care of other people, hopefully. And that’s where I get my satisfaction from. I don’t need to be the star. As a matter of fact, I don’t even want to be on stage. I’m way more happy to be behind the curtain pulling the levers and strings. So, that’s number one. Number two, I would say, is I think you have to be willing to let others be the star and too many salespeople, my observation why they’re not successful is that they want to be the star.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:28:37] And that just isn’t helpful for either our colleagues who really are the stars, because as Ann referred to them as subject matter experts, they’re the ones who have the answers, not me. And then, the other thing is, really, it needs to be all about the client or prospect, not about the salesperson. So, just turn the I pronoun out of your vocabulary and just pretend it doesn’t exist. And that’s the way to think about it.

Mike Blake: [00:29:10] So, Ann, you’ve been in your role for a long time and I suspect but don’t know, you’ve probably seen others in that role, whether it’s in your firm where others sort of come and go. Why are you different? Why do you think you’re different? I’m not going to use the word special, because you’ll never let me get away with that.

Ann McDonald: [00:29:29] No.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:29:29] But she’s wonderful.

Mike Blake: [00:29:29] But I think you’ll get away with different.

Ann McDonald: [00:29:30] No.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:29:30] She is wonderful.

Ann McDonald: [00:29:32] Thank you.

Mike Blake: [00:29:32] But there is something different, right? You know, it’s, if you’re around, say, a year longer than everybody else, that’s a statistical anomaly. When it’s a lot longer than anybody else, clearly, there’s something structural there. And if you want to talk about yourself, that’s fine. Maybe just contrast with what others have done, where they have not been successful, what mistakes do you see other salespeople make?

Ann McDonald: [00:29:56] Well, I think Susan touched on it. I think it’s important as a business developer salesperson that you have the maturity to understand the sales process with a service organization. And the important person or people in the equation will be the company and the attorney who they had the relationship with or attorneys, multiple relationships. And for a sales person, you have to understand, as Susan said, you are not the key person. You are not the key personality. You are the go-between and the facilitator for the relationship.

Ann McDonald: [00:30:47] The company has to have the primary relationship with the attorney in our case. And because that’s who they will trust, who they are relying on to help them make very important decisions about the future of their company and their employees. And so, the business developer or salesperson has to understand that. It’s also a different role than I have had as a salesperson in the past. And I don’t close the relationship. I don’t close the win. I make the introduction to our attorney. And then, it’s a hand-off. And I can’t close the win.

Mike Blake: [00:31:40] Right.

Ann McDonald: [00:31:41] So, that takes another level, I think, of understanding and-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:31:52] Acceptance.

Ann McDonald: [00:31:52] … actions. In that, I help coach the attorney. You know, it’s such a hard position to be the one who’s making the widget, the one who’s providing the service and then, also the salesperson. And you have those two distinct roles in companies, but you don’t as attorneys. So, I help coach the attorney. I mean, they’re working on deals. They’re creating the legal product. But then, they also need to nurture the relationships of prospects. And as I tell them, “Don’t dig the well when you’re thirsty. You need to be part of the sales process all along, even though you’re very busy with providing the services.” But I will coach attorneys and help them with closing the deal, getting the client in. But that primary relationship is with them.

Mike Blake: [00:32:54] So, one thing that falls out of both of what you said and another kind of talking point is I think a common thread is humility. And I’m sure it sounds intuitive to the two of you, but if you think about how we portray somebody who’s in sales in the media, right? Good thing about Glengarry Glen Ross, right? Always be closing hard-charging high-ego, right? And you sort of have to own everything.

Mike Blake: [00:33:27] But in my experience, I’m curious about if you agree, you know, in a lot of way, in a lot of respects, business development can kind of be like trying to swing a baseball bat to tighter your grip at the less while it works, right? The harder you try, in some respects, the less it works, right? So, is it fair to say that if I’m interviewing somebody for that role, another thing I would look for, besides curiosity and the ability and desire to ask questions, I guess is also, frankly, some humility to it.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:33:59] It’s a funny line that you walk because you have to be confident enough that you can call on a CEO or a CFO and expect that that person is going to take your call because you have some prior relationship and respect with each other. But then, you also have to be willing to take a step back once that person has agreed to meet with you, that someone else is really the reason why they’re there. So, it is a little bit odd.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:34:29] I think you’re also looking, for your listeners, for some ideas about what are things that are helpful when you are looking to hire a business development person. I would say the other thing is don’t look for someone who expects this to be a regular job, a 9:00 to 5:00 job, I mean. There are countless breakfasts and dinners that Ann and I have been at that require very, very long days. It’s almost like a school bus driver. You’re really busy in the morning, you’re really busy in the evening.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:35:01] And then, your kind of in the middle of the day is when you’re doing all of your prep work for the next couple of meetings. But when you are going to these meetings, you’re not just walking in cold, you’re doing your homework ahead of time. What is the group about? Who can I expect to be there? Are there people that I am particularly looking for? How do I connect people who I meet there with resources that will be helpful for them? All of that is happening before or after meetings. But it is a lot of very long days and you have to find people who are willing to make those kinds of time commitments, I think.

Ann McDonald: [00:35:38] I also think there typically are two different kinds of salespeople, hunters and farmers. And I think this is a combination of those roles. You have to really be hungry and be a hunter, but you also have to be a farmer. In that, you’re nurturing relationships, you’re doing coaching. There are some additional characteristics besides just being the Glengarry Glen Ross. You know, dialing for dollars kind of-

Mike Blake: [00:36:13] Right. Coffees for closers.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:36:15] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:36:16] Yeah. And that balance is going to depend a lot, I think, on the nature of the industry that you’re-

Ann McDonald: [00:36:23] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:36:23] Right? And professional services, a lot of farming because that person may or may not need that service to a particular point in time, right? For me, it can be a two-year sales cycle. Maybe accounting-less, because everybody needs to file a tax return or some someplace in the middle. On the other hand, if it’s somebody that does flood remediation, then that’s a very short-sale cycle, right?

Ann McDonald: [00:36:45] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:36:46] So, you sort of have to understand kind of where you fall on the continuum. I put one loaded question into the list, but you guys had a chance to see it, you didn’t tell me I couldn’t ask it, so I’m going to ask it, because I do think it’s relevant. The two of you happen to be women.

Ann McDonald: [00:37:03] I knew it wasn’t going to be question number eight.

Mike Blake: [00:37:04] The two of you happen to be women. Do you think that has impacted your ability to be successful in your respective roles, either in a positive or a negative way? I don’t want to go on me, too, but-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:37:20] Since I’ve never been a man, I don’t know that I can answer that.

Mike Blake: [00:37:23] Okay.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:37:24] But I can tell you that it became very clear when I was in my prior firm, working strictly with venture capitalists that when I would go to the National Venture Capital Association’s annual meeting, I was one of a handful of women in a room of a thousand people. And so, how are you going to stand out? And I chose to use bright colors. So, people who know me know that I never wear black or navy unless I’m going to a funeral.

Mike Blake: [00:38:00] That’s true. I’ve never seen you in either of those colors as long as I’ve known you. That’s right.

Ann McDonald: [00:38:03] Yeah.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:38:04] And so, you have to do something to stand out in a crowd and be different, especially when there are competitors who do not have a business development person, but send their practitioners to the same events I’m at. How am I going to relate to people in a way that will be memorable when I personally can’t answer their questions, technical questions? And so, I’ve chosen to do it with being personal, asking about family, remembering things personally about that person.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:38:40] Do I think a man would do that? I don’t think so. I’ve yet to meet one who ever remembers anything personal about other people. I mean, at a networking event, they just don’t or they don’t ask about it. And I think being a woman, it’s safer to ask those kinds of questions without feeling like maybe the person thinking, why is this person getting so personal? That it’s more accepted, I guess.

Mike Blake: [00:39:07] Yeah.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:39:07] Ann, how about you?

Ann McDonald: [00:39:08] Oh, I really don’t think gender has much to do with it. I do think as far as salespeople go, I think women may have an edge for some of the reasons that Susan like said.

Mike Blake: [00:39:23] Well, especially in tech, right? I mean, there aren’t that many women in tech, period, yet.

Ann McDonald: [00:39:27] Oh, well, that’s true. But it’s interesting. And of course, we go to a lot of events and there are not a lot of women typically in the room. And I don’t notice it anymore.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:39:39] I don’t either.

Ann McDonald: [00:39:40] It’s not even something that is a factor. But, you know, we are good about making connections and probing without seeming to be too direct and-

Mike Blake: [00:39:58] And maybe more natural empathy, too.

Ann McDonald: [00:39:59] And more natural empathy. I think that may be a factor.

Mike Blake: [00:40:03] So, another question I want to make sure we get through, we don’t have a ton of time left, but this is one I’ve got to make sure I ask, you know, Ann, you and I are talking a little bit about this before we came on, imagine that you’re going to hire your successor, what is an interview question you would make sure you want to ask your successor? What would they have to answer for you in a great way to say—you’ll tell John Yates, you know, “John, well, now, I’m ready to hang it up and I’m right to be on a beach in Tahiti. This is the person you got to hire because answered this question great.”

Ann McDonald: [00:40:42] Oh, Mike, that is a tough one. One question. How good are you at putting the client first, representing the client to the firm and then, representing the firm to the client? Instead of making this a personal quest, I mean, it has to be all about helping that company, that client grow and the depth of relationship. And I’d like to know about the experience that the interviewer or interviewee would have with those kinds of relationships. And then, the whole coaching factor of helping attorneys to be successful, because that’s a good part of what this job entails. And it’s providing tools for them, it’s providing answers, it’s providing coaching in a way that they can tolerate that’s nudges and not, “Here comes the wisdom.”

Mike Blake: [00:42:19] Yeah. And that’s really interesting because I’ve long thought of both of you as much as anything being air-traffic controllers, right?

Ann McDonald: [00:42:30] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:42:32] Controlling connections and coordinations and stuff. And the way you described that role, I think, may be different than one of a lot of our listeners’ thought going in, because, you know, the notion of sales for many people when you think of it is a unidirectional process, right? I’ve got something, I’m going communicate to you, and you want to buy it. But the way you describe it is once you initiate that relationship, now, you’re representing the client back to the firm as well-

Ann McDonald: [00:43:04] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:43:05] … and to make sure they’re treated well-

Ann McDonald: [00:43:06] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:43:06] … and they’re treated appropriately and they get the right service. And even if I’m wrong, and I’m going to step out here, but I suspect this is true, even if sometimes, that may mean that you’re not the right firm to serve them-

Ann McDonald: [00:43:19] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:43:19] … necessarily, right? You know, not all things to all people can’t be if you’re successful.

Ann McDonald: [00:43:23] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:43:23] And so, it’s very interesting. I think there’s a big learning point in there for that piece of advice and the way to ask that question. Susan, you have a bit of extra time to noodle on that. You’re interviewing the next director of business development for Aprio, what do you ask him?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:43:42] Describe how when you were given a prospect’s name, a company or a nonprofit, not necessarily a person, and you don’t know a single person at that company, but you have to get in the door of the CEO, how would you do it? What are the steps you would take to open that door? And how long would it take you to get there?

Ann McDonald: [00:44:10] Oh, that’s good.

Mike Blake: [00:44:11] Now, that last part is loaded, I think, because the knee-jerk reaction may be, “Well, I could get in there in two weeks.”.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:44:24] How would you do it?

Mike Blake: [00:44:25] Because you want to show that you’re quick and effective, right? And then, I can see on your face that SO face of skepticism like, “Uh-uh. In two weeks, man”, right? We’re talking months. You’re probably looking at months-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:44:39] Well, what’s the right way?

Mike Blake: [00:44:39] … if you’re going to sound the way that you think that is appropriate and realistic, right?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:44:43] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:44:44] Two weeks is boiler room territory.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:44:46] Yeah. That’s just nonsense. And it’s not going to work. So, you’ve already identified yourself as a phony in my book.

Mike Blake: [00:44:54] So, two more questions and we’ve got to go and let you guys get back to your day jobs. How much has social media played a role in what you guys do? Are you guys social media people at all? I know the answer to this question to some extent, but our listeners don’t.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:45:11] I’ll defer to Ann because for me, it’s irrelevant. So, I would just be in the office-

Mike Blake: [00:45:16] Well, but-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:45:16] I mean, we have a marketing department that uses social media.

Mike Blake: [00:45:19] Right.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:45:20] But I live on LinkedIn. And if that is considered social media-

Mike Blake: [00:45:26] Yeah, I think so.

Ann McDonald: [00:45:26] It is.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:45:28] So, I live on that. But tweeting and posting stuff and all of that, I completely defer to the queen of it, which is Ann, because I don’t do any of that stuff. I use it to learn, but I don’t use it to push the company. Probably, I should, but I just don’t.

Mike Blake: [00:45:46] If I ever see a selfie of you on Instagram, I’m calling the police, because I know you’ve-

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:45:51] I’ve been kidnapped.

Mike Blake: [00:45:52] … clearly been kidnapped. And that is a cry for help. And somebody is going to be dropping $100,000 in a parking lot somewhere to get you back.

Ann McDonald: [00:46:01] There’s a newspaper next to her head just to show proof of life.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:46:02] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:46:06] Exactly. Ann, how about you?

Ann McDonald: [00:46:07] Well, I use LinkedIn quite a bit.

Mike Blake: [00:46:09] Yeah.

Ann McDonald: [00:46:10] And for a lot of different things, do a lot of research on LinkedIn, I post articles that I find very interesting that I think will be of interest to the people I know. They’re usually business articles, really engaging ideas that I think will help companies grow based on my background. I post events for organizations that I belong to. I think that’s important in getting support for the things that I support. Of course, I’ll re-post all of the MMM items that I think people should know about. But I think it’s very valuable. I think that’s a great sort of lifeline that it helps bring life to what I’m trying to accomplish.

Mike Blake: [00:47:13] Yeah.

Ann McDonald: [00:47:13] It is a branding tool.

Mike Blake: [00:47:15] Yeah.

Ann McDonald: [00:47:17] And that lets people know me a little bit better, personally, because of the things that I say or post, especially the articles. I’ve had people approach me at events and say, “Oh, yeah, I recognize you. I’ve seen you on LinkedIn and I follow the articles that you post.” So, it’s been of some value that way.

Mike Blake: [00:47:38] Right. You get recognized.

Ann McDonald: [00:47:39] Yeah. Yes. And so, that’s a point of conversation then to get to know somebody, to get to know a company. So, you know, I give kudos to people and it’s a nice outlet. Now, when I post things on LinkedIn, I will then, sometimes, check the box for it to be posted on Twitter.

Mike Blake: [00:48:07] Yeah.

Ann McDonald: [00:48:08] And then, Facebook is purely social, really.

Mike Blake: [00:48:11] Yeah. Yeah. So, we are unfortunately out of time. I could easily lock the door and trap these ladies here for a couple more hours, but that would be unfair to them and also illegal, so we’re going to have to wrap up. There’s so much more we could talk about. But if somebody listening would like to contact you, they have questions about this process, can they do that?

Ann McDonald: [00:48:31] Absolutely.

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:48:31] Please.

Mike Blake: [00:48:32] And if so, Ann, how best to contact you?

Ann McDonald: [00:48:36] Email, amcdonald@mmmlaw.com.

Mike Blake: [00:48:43] Susan?

Susan O’Dwyer: [00:48:43] And I’m susan.o’dwyer, and yes, I do have an apostrophe in my email, it’s O-apostrophe-D-W-Y-E-R, @aprio, A-P-R-I-O, .com. And I would welcome your questions or any way I can help you.

Mike Blake: [00:48:59] That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Ann McDonald and Susan O’Dwyer so much for joining us and sharing their expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 47: How Can I Get My Employees to Think Independently? – An Interview with Joanna Bloor, The Amplify Lab

January 16, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 47: How Can I Get My Employees to Think Independently? - An Interview with Joanna Bloor, The Amplify Lab

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 47: How Can I Get My Employees to Think Independently? – An Interview with Joanna Bloor

This episode took a right turn into a question many business owners struggle with: “how can I get my employees to think independently?” Joanna Bloor and “Decision Vision” host Mike Blake veered into this important topic in a fascinating and insightful discussion. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Joanna Bloor, The Amplify Lab

Introduction expert and Founder of The Amplify Lab, Joanna Bloor is on a mission to help us prepare for the big leap into the future. To uncover and articulate our value and our place in the next chapter of humankind. No big deal. Why? Because we all need to rethink how we prepare for the future of work. The what, where, when and how of work is changing – and so is the who.

And it all starts with understanding why and how you need to have a better answer to the question “What do you do?

An “eternal student of what is around the next technology corner” Joanna started her career by scaling the revenue strategies of brands such as Ticketmaster, Cars.com, OpenTable, and Pandora. Then a conversation in line at TED 2016 led to a realization that what we are known for has far-reaching impact as an individual and a leader.

In front of audiences that range from thinkers at TED, to technologists at Dreamforce, to entrepreneurs at Gathering of Titans – like a Fairy Godmother – Joanna’s known for “live amplification” of audience members while zinging the audience with moments of surprise and laughter. All wrapped up with the practical guidance of what you too, can do next.

“Joanna shines a light on long-forgotten ingredients that make up our secret sauce, reminding us that we’re not awesome by accident.” — Cristina Jones, EVP Trailblazer Marketing Salesforce.com.

You can learn more about Joanna at her website, or connect with her through social media on LinkedIn and on Twitter.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Mike Blake: [00:00:01] Hi and welcome to the Decision Vision podcast. We’re going to do a little of a prologue before you listen to this podcast, because I don’t want to be accused of false advertising. The discussion is about the nature of work and the changing nature of work. And we had a terrific discussion with Joanna Bloor. And I do hope that you’ll listen to this, even though the topic is a little bit different than the way it’s presented in the introduction.

Mike Blake: [00:00:29] We had originally thought that the discussion was going to be around labor models and to a lesser extent, employee engagement, but really adapting to new realities, generally, in the labor force. And the way that the conversation turned, and I decided that it was a good turn, so we just sort of ran with it, is really talking about, at a high-level, employee engagement and how do you unlock the full potential of your employees as thinking organic human beings.

Mike Blake: [00:01:02] And, you know, if you don’t think that’s a good thing, then you probably don’t want to listen to this podcast because we’re going to talk about things that you’re just not going to really jive with. But if you think that is something that’s worthwhile, I know a lot of people that come to me and say, you know, “Boy, I love to get my employees to think on their feet better. I love to get them more engaged. How do I do that?” Then, I think you’re going to find this conversation to be very interesting. It’s kind of like a TED talk but a little bit longer and with no slides, but I think a very high-level intellectual conversation.

Mike Blake: [00:01:35] So, we’ll go back and take another look with a different episode at actual models of work when we can do something a little bit more specifically. But, you know, I don’t want to have you go in 20 minutes and wonder kind of when is the topic that was advertised coming up and waste your time. And I want to be respectful of your time. So, if you’re going to listen to another podcast, thank you for doing that. Otherwise, you’re gonna stick around, sit back and relax and enjoy the infotainment.

Intro: [00:02:04] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:02:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:02:41] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton, Columbus, Ohio, Richmond, Indiana, and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we are recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:03:05] Today, we’re going to talk about the nature of work. A seemingly esoteric topic, but one that is getting increasing attention and it’s receiving increased attention from a number of angles. One, there’s a macrosocial angle that is forcing us to revisit how we consider work, because we are finding increasingly that more and more of us are becoming, if not expendable, then certainly ancillary to technology that is now capable of performing more complex tasks than were even imaginable 10 to 15 years ago.

Mike Blake: [00:03:50] And to that end now, we are experimenting with different economic systems to help us cope with that, frankly, without necessarily having to sabotage technological progress, because there are very real reasons we want to do that. And, you know, the so-called Star Trek economy is great, but they don’t show you kind of the painful transition that gets you from this economy into that Star Trek economy. And that painful transition is, you know, what do people do when robots do everything that people want?

Mike Blake: [00:04:28] And, you know, some countries are now experimenting with something called a universal basic income. There’s at least one Democratic presidential candidate who is embracing that as a way to cushion the blow. But we’re forced to reexamine the role of labor, if you will, in our economy and our society because, you know, automation is not only expanding, but its rate of acceleration is increasing as well.

Mike Blake: [00:04:57] And then, on a micro-level, we’re being compelled to reexamine what work looks like because, you know, particularly in the American economy in an unprecedented level of competition in many areas, not every area, to be sure, but certainly, in professional services and other areas, you know, we have competition from places we never would have dreamed we’d have competition before, whether it’s China, whether it’s India, whether it’s startups, whether it’s, again, AI.

Mike Blake: [00:05:33] We are being forced to rethink what role labor is really meant to play in the workplace. And then, you know, at some point, because there’s really a limit to how much you can improve your labor force by simply raising pay and increase in the value that you extract from your labor force by doing that, it’s compelling us to rethink models of work, whether that’s working from home, whether it’s the four-day workweek or the four-hour workweek, as we sometimes hear about, job sharing, and flex time and the gig economy and so forth.

Mike Blake: [00:06:16] And they’ve all been around to some extent, but they have not been sort of up close, in person, and in our faces the way that they have become in the last five to 10 years or so. And if you’re a business owner or an executive and you’re not thinking about this, you need to start because this is a hard puzzle to solve. And if you do solve it, then you’re going to create a significant competitive advantage for yourself. And if your competitors solve it before you do, watch out.

Mike Blake: [00:06:46] So, as usual, with all of our topics, I’m not the subject matter expert, I’m just the person who brings on the person who is the subject matter expert. And to help us work through this today is Joanna Bloor, who is expert and founder of The Amplify Lab. Joanna Bloor is on a mission to help us prepare for the big leap into the future, to uncover and articulate our value and our place in the next chapter of humankind.

Mike Blake: [00:07:08] Why? Because we all need to rethink how we prepare for the future of work. The what, where, when, and however work is changing and so is the who and I would argue the why as well. And we’ll talk about that today. It all starts with the understanding of why and how you need to have a better answer to the question, what do you do? An eternal student of what is around the next technology corner, Joanna started her career by scaling the revenue strategies of brands such as Ticketmaster, cars.com, OpenTable and Pandora.

Mike Blake: [00:07:37] Then, a conversation online at a TED 2016 led to a realization of what we are known for as far reaching impact as an individual and as a leader. In front of audiences that range from thinkers at TED to technologists at Dreamforce to entrepreneurs, a gathering of titans like a fairy godmother, Joanna is known for live amplification of audience members while zinging the audience with moments of surprise and laughter.

Mike Blake: [00:08:00] And I can attest to that. We had a preliminary conversation to come on here. It seemed like it was two minutes, before we knew it, an-hour-and-a-half had gone by. I’ll wrap up with a practical guidance of what you, too, can do next. And as a testimonial, Joanna shines a light on long-forgotten ingredients that make up our secret sauce, reminding us that we’re not awesome by accident. And that was by an executive from salesforce.com. Joanna, welcome to the program.

Joanna Bloor: [00:08:28] Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to continue our conversation.

Mike Blake: [00:08:32] Yeah. So, let’s get people caught up because otherwise, they’re gonna be jumping on a treadmill, going 30-miles-an-hour. Why are we having this conversation? I mean, you know, do what I say make sense in terms that we’re being confronted with just this need to reconsider the very nature of work?

Joanna Bloor: [00:08:49] Yes. Yes. Well, I was thinking about this as preparing and how do I kind of macro this up, because you talked about the Star Trek being future and how do we get there. And in looking at work, and I actually think there are lots of people talking about the future of work and how do we get there, the reality is, I think, we’re actually here today. And part of the challenge that we see our whole marketplace in, and I will start by saying what is really interesting about work is it’s a double-sided marketplace.

Joanna Bloor: [00:09:29] They are buyers. The employer chooses the employee, the employee chooses the employer, which adds a whole level of complexity and questions and everything to the entire thing. It’s not like you’re buying a pair of shoes that you get to walk out the store with. But what I was thinking about, this whole question about, well, what does work look like in the 21st century? I really actually took a step backwards and said, well, what has happened to work over time?

Joanna Bloor: [00:09:59] And then, separate it because how humans travel through work, how business is run, and how technology is run potentially have different patterns. And what I ultimately noticed was that, well, if you look at technology, most technology companies are running around and saying, you know, “We’re in the fourth industrial revolution.” And I go, okay. So, we’ve gotten from the original industrial revolution when we saw the shift from farming to factories and all those sorts of things.

Joanna Bloor: [00:10:34] And, you know, technology has had enormous play in that. But I would argue that the human revolution hasn’t happened yet. So, while technology has gone through major shifts and transformation and then, I would actually say that business has started to make major shifts and transformations, humans haven’t. So, let’s just say, okay, we’re just going to use the base model of the industrial revolution and how business and technology has run.

Joanna Bloor: [00:11:08] The past was very one dimensional and at best, binary. So, you think about how companies grew, it was all about supply chain optimization. It was all about operational efficiency. It’s all about growth and what does your P&L look like. And are you returning investment to whoever is investing to you, whether you’re public, private or whatever the financial structure is. And yet, if you look at technology, it’s gone from very ones and zeros to we’re now in the world of quantum and AI and gosh, robotics and all sorts of really multidimensional things and business has to.

Joanna Bloor: [00:11:56] And, you know, you talk to any company today and they’re starting to think about up to triple bottom-line economics. And so, both technology and business have become much more multidimensional. And when you look at the human element, all of the tools, the elements of humans, and these job descriptions, performance reviews, measurements of productivity, measurement of almost everything is still very binary. It’s still, do you have that skill set? Do you not have have that skill set?

Joanna Bloor: [00:12:35] And what I think everybody, and I know everybody who is listening is going, “Wait a second. I’m way more interesting than just a skill set.” And I go, “Yeah. Absolutely.” You look in a business and I think any business owner, any leader would say the most multidimensional interesting thing in my company are the humans and yet, all of the tools in the supply chain about, how do we navigate that marketplace? A very one and two-dimensional work in this multidimensional world.

Joanna Bloor: [00:13:07] So, I sit here and I say, so as human beings, we aren’t in the fourth industrial revolution. We’re still trying to get out of the first industrial revolution. And I think what we are starting to see with the gig economy and people really pushing back on companies around where are they investing with them and career path and all of the elements that come into play when you’re talking about humans are really beginning to change.

Joanna Bloor: [00:13:35] And the question then becomes as because it’s a double-sided marketplace as both a leader, a business owner, whatever your role is in this or as a team member, how do you start thinking about how to change the narrative about you and say, “Look, a resume isn’t the thing that tells me who I am, a job description isn’t the job.” And how do we start thinking about talent in much more of a multidimensional structure? Then, you start talking about like how all that happens.

Mike Blake: [00:14:10] So, although this is, I think, subsiding a little bit, I think we’re past the point of peak blame, but you still sort of hear it plenty, is that we’re only having this conversation because Millennials and Gen Zs are basically modern-day hippies without the tie-dye shirts and they don’t want to work hard. You know, how do you react to that? Is that a legitimate analysis or is that just a cop-out?

Joanna Bloor: [00:14:35] No. I think that is the same argument every older generation has about the generation before. Plus, let’s be real, because I wanted to say this, that like Millennials, Gen Z, Gen X, Boomer, it’s just a marketing category. This is just a sticker and a label that we have put on people. And yes, as human beings, we do need to categorize things, otherwise, our heads explode, unless the sticker is really, really good, like winner of X or the best at Ys, we don’t actually like to be labeled.

Joanna Bloor: [00:15:17] And so, first of all, I always talk to teams and say like, “Let’s step away from the stickers and let’s also recognize-“, you know, I was, for lack of a better term, it’s what a punk, 20-something-year old myself once upon a time. And I was running around saying, “Well, hang on, why are the rules the way they are? And what’s happening?” This happens, I think, with every single generation. But where I do come back is, and say like, “Where are the labels actually helpful?”

Joanna Bloor: [00:15:48] So, I’m now going to disagree with myself, is I do think as you were looking at the talent in your organization, we do need to actually give a bit of a nod to what has been, in essence, the career path. And I say this kind of airports around it of the talent that comes into your organization. And the reality is, for all of us, our career path actually starts when we’re little teeny tiny kids and start going to school.

Joanna Bloor: [00:16:19] So, I’ll give myself the sticker of Gen X. So, I was brought up in a generation in, you know, my formative years when I started to actually realize that it was more than just play out there, were in the ’80s. And if you think about what life is like for a Gen X’er in the ’80s, there wasn’t a lot of after-school programming. We were the first generation of parents of divorce. And so, there’s a concept of a latchkey kid, which is kids used to go home after school and let themselves into their own homes.

Joanna Bloor: [00:16:55] And while we all did just fine, we kind of had little to no parental supervision. And at the same time, for the boom and bust of the ’80s, you then roll those same people into the ’90s where the internet started to become a thing and technology became such a major part of young people’s lives. We were the first adapters of technology and were the first people to be described as digital first. What was true about that period, and especially for those of us, including myself, who got to really be in those early stage companies who were building the internet.

Joanna Bloor: [00:17:34] My first, I want to say, dot-com job was in 1995, but I had been playing with technology for fun for, gosh, almost a decade before that. And what was true about that era is there were no rules, you know, from, I’d say, 1995 until the present day. Every single job title I have had has been made up and every single job description I have had is made up. And I say this for myself, but that’s the same for my entire peer group of people who ran through that period of time.

Joanna Bloor: [00:18:13] And I say all of that because what I think it means is that anybody who that resonated with, can sit here and go, “Well, hang on a second. I’m really used to there not being rules and rules are made to be broken. And a job description is just a suggestion.” And really, I am going to sit here and say, “How can I play with technology as opposed to asking about career paths?” And then, I flip it around and say, “Well, what is that same narrative for people?”.

Joanna Bloor: [00:18:44] And instead of giving them a sticker, let’s say, you know, anywhere from 30 to 35 and younger, the reality is, it’s both their education and their entertainment, because it was the age of fairness. It was never about here’s the trophy for participation, it was a, here’s a trophy for playing as a team, in an age of what I call a fairness in their education and attainment. You have an entire generation of people who’ve been brought up both in school, where at the beginning of school, they’re told, “This is what you need to do to get an A. Here are the rules.”.

Joanna Bloor: [00:19:21] And you think about even sports and other games, it’s very rule-based. And this is what you do to succeed and level up in all of those sorts of things. And then, you look at entertainment, too, and even the most simple and basic video game—and I will absolutely own that I do play Candy Crush on airplanes while I’m passing out on the runway and it’s something to do to distract my mind. Very simple, basic video games.

Mike Blake: [00:19:46] I’m right there with you.

Joanna Bloor: [00:19:46] You’d think we’d find a little time to meditate or something during that period. I’m not worried about that. But you look at that and in video games, if you break the rules, you die. Oh, but FYI, you also get four more lives. And so, when I look at those pattern and then, also look at the boomer generation, and I sit here and I go, why are we surprised that the talent that is coming into our organization is sitting here saying, “Tell me what the rules are and I will do it. But then, I will expect to level up.”.

Joanna Bloor: [00:20:28] And then, you have an entire leadership team who says, “Hang on a second. Rules are made to be broken”, et cetera. And I sit here and I go, this is why I think there’s a bit of angst between some of the generations because we’ve had different experiences and different patterns. But I also sit here and say, on a much bigger level, I actually think the generations coming into the workplace have it right.

Joanna Bloor: [00:20:55] I do think that questions around what is the right measure of success are the right questions to have. What does success look like? I do think they’re right to come in, like I know that they’ve given that really terrible moniker of snowflake. But what’s true about that is every snowflake is scientifically different. But the reality is, as human beings, we are all incredibly different. And that’s actually what is amazing about human beings.

Joanna Bloor: [00:21:26] And so, I don’t sit here and say, well, hang on, we’re all right in this scenario. You should learn how to break the rules. And everybody is different. And so, I sit here and go, well, the supply chain of the industrial world, which is scalable, repeatable, mechanistic, is about productivity. It shouldn’t be applied to humans because with this, much more organic, evolving, changing things. And so, I say, kill the resume, kill the job description, kill all of it.

Joanna Bloor: [00:22:01] And I know the next question is like, what do you do then? And I actually start to look at, how do you look at your talent, which is, again, for any company, probably the most important thing that you have and say, well, how do we actually shift to the supply chain of human talent? And instead of coming in and saying it’s about stickers and badges and tenure and skills and all of those sorts of things and actually look back again in time to the world before the industrial revolution and say, wow, hang on a second.

Joanna Bloor: [00:22:35] When you or somebody in the workplace prior to, what is that, like late 1800s, they had the equivalent of an internship. We were all artisans and we all learned to craft and apprenticeships. And there was a lot more of almost currency transactions beyond currency when you went to go work for somebody. So, if you were an apprentice working with a master and I will say it was with more than four, there was an expectation that it was more than just a paycheck. And so, I suggest that, you know, the workplace actually becomes much more like school and say, okay.

Joanna Bloor: [00:23:28] As talent is coming in and as you’re having the conversation around the multidimensional changing human and the value of the human, how do you then start to think about, okay, so if the job description is actually trying to solve this problem, what is the combination of skills that we are looking for? But then, starting to ask the question of, what is the potential that we are looking for? Because you’re looking for somebody with ideas, you’re looking for somebody’s brain to come into the conversation. And that has much more of apprenticeship model than I think the employee model of today.

Mike Blake: [00:24:05] So, let me jump in on that, because-

Joanna Bloor: [00:24:09] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:24:09] … I think there’s a lot to unpack there. And we may just spend the rest of our time kind of unpacking that, which is fine. But a thought that occurs based on what you just said that I think is a critical takeaway is that the nature of work and the way we structure it really is about making it easy to get rid of people, when you really boil right down to it, right? The job descriptions, the leveling up, so to speak. And I love that term, by the way. It’s really all about protecting the firm from being basically attacked by the employee, instead of, what if our approach was we’re just never going to be sued by an employee because we’re just going to focus our efforts on making them good. And therefore, they’d be nuts to sue us and we’d be nuts to fire them.

Joanna Bloor: [00:25:08] Yes. Yes, I’ve had this conversation with a couple of—like the conversation around—my first conversation was let’s get rid of the resume, because I think it’s such a single dimensional document and people spend far too much energy, and the HR executives I’ve talked to across the board have said, “Oh, but we need it so that we don’t get sued.” And while fairness in employment practice and appropriate employment practice, I think, is critically important and really understanding who a person is, is critically important, but any business owner would tell you that if you are putting into practice so that you don’t get sued, you’re actually limiting yourself rather than expanding the opportunity.

Mike Blake: [00:26:00] So, you know, let me ask this, is that tug of war? And one thing we’re hearing a lot more about now is mental health in the workplace. I’m a big advocate for mental health. I think it cannot be talked about too much. You know, is that tug of war between the desire of employees to grow and to develop versus the firm that is trying to protect itself from its own employees? Is that literally driving employees crazy?

Joanna Bloor: [00:26:41] That’s a really interesting question. Not a psychologist, not-

Mike Blake: [00:26:46] Me neither.

Joanna Bloor: [00:26:46] … a doctor.

Mike Blake: [00:26:47] Just you and me talking here.

Joanna Bloor: [00:26:49] It’s just you and me. Okay. My only inclination is to say, of course, it is. You know, there’s been endless studies around the whole carrot and stick science of reward for employees. And you come back to what I said earlier about how both, you know, the, what is it you need to do to get an A, how do you level up within your application, that feedback loop that we’ve all gotten a little bit addicted to. But well done. You got a gold star. You’re the champion on the leader board.

Joanna Bloor: [00:27:25] Like whatever it is, that feedback would just become so easy, that when we’re not getting that feedback looped within our workplace, we start to get anxiety around it. You know, am I doing okay? Is everything working? And then, you add on the fact that the challenge of business is there isn’t always a right answer, which speaks to that multidimensionality and the fact that unless I would argue, I think about like what is the product of the human being in the workplace.

Joanna Bloor: [00:28:12] And it’s their brain time. And even if you have an employee who is working in a retail store, you want them there to think critically as opposed to just being a robot and a machine. And yes, all of the things we have surrounding human’s process, the feedback loop, the, what are you doing, how are you doing it really talks to us more like we’re machines rather than as really interesting human beings.

Mike Blake: [00:28:44] And, you know, think about from a consumer’s perspective, if you have a question or a challenge, what’s the most infuriating thing you can hear? So, well, that’s the rule and I can’t break it, right?

Joanna Bloor: [00:28:56] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:28:57] Or if I do that for you, I get fired. And that, more than anything, it makes me want to take my phone and smash it, except it’s worth as much as my wife’s engagement ring, so I’m not going to do that. But, you know-

Joanna Bloor: [00:29:12] But you think about—yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:29:12] But that thinking-

Joanna Bloor: [00:29:14] So, I was think really thoughtfully.

Mike Blake: [00:29:14] … that brainpower is what leads to satisfaction.

Joanna Bloor: [00:29:16] Yeah. So, I just want to give a real example about this because I don’t want to sit completely esoteric on this whole scenario. So, I’m actually going to talk about a situation that I just encountered. So, I want to just lay the land of what’s out there. So, you have just a group of people who have been taught over and over and over again through time, follow the rules, follow the rules, follow the rules.

Joanna Bloor: [00:29:45] They come work for a company and I mean, use—I’m not actually going to say the name of the company since I just had a conversation with the CEO about this because I was curious, but it was a food service company that I was interacting with. And clearly, they had done a really innovative process with food that was part of the experience of the food eating process. That’s about as far as I can go on this. It was a really fun store and I was excited to be in there.

Joanna Bloor: [00:30:15] And I went in to buy the product and the person behind the counter said, “Well, what is your name?” And I said, “Well, I’m literally buying the product. You’re not making anything custom for me. It’s in this package. I just want to walk out the store. Why do you need my name?” And he goes, “But that’s what I’m supposed to do.” And I was like, well, I go and ask like, “Can we just do this?” I was in a rush, just do the credit card and run out.

Joanna Bloor: [00:30:39] Oh, that’s a very simple, easy transaction. What stuck with me afterwards is just like, gosh, if I was GM of this company, I was the CEO of this company, I’m not, what I would want my employee to know that they had the wiggle room to do is actually take the critical thinking and say, hey, look, this woman rolls in. It’s clearly moving at 100 miles an hour, kind of the pace that I operate at. Because she’s not getting something custom made for her, she’s actually just buying a thing off the shelf and literally wants to swipe and go.

Joanna Bloor: [00:31:13] Well, I’m just going to put Bob in the machine and who cares? Because it wasn’t going to take a point where it was, oh, they want my email address so they can send me marketing materials. It was literally to make that process work better. Do they have the bandwidth to break the rules to say, hey, I’m just going to skip the process and actually see that my customer across from me wants to move quickly and service that need as opposed to serving the need of company.

Joanna Bloor: [00:31:44] And I know that seems really myopic and individual and I sometimes wonder if when I describe it, I sound a bit like a whiny customer, which maybe I am. But I sit here and I say, as somebody who understands the retail experience as an example, I would much prefer the employee who understood that the rules could be broken there and that they wouldn’t actually get dinged, punished, whatever for not just being a cog in the machine, while it is a very complex machine that they are running because they’re doing all sorts of customizations and all lots of stuff.

Joanna Bloor: [00:32:19] And I sit here and I go, that this structure of, here is the job description, here are the rules, here is the process, here are the expectations, here’s what’s correct, here’s what’s incorrect is really making our employees into machines more than the amazing thing that they really are. And so, how do you actually help people understand that rules can be broken while also recognizing that we have brainwashed people into saying that you have to follow the rules. Like I think we’ve just roboticized the workforce because you might get sued, because you want to move faster, because of all of these sorts of things. And I come back to, okay, we have got to shift into this more multidimensional space. And again, I could go on, on all of these sorts of things.

Mike Blake: [00:33:10] Well, let’s drill into that actually. So, I’m just gonna tear up the script. And to be perfectly candid, we’re not talking about what I thought I would talk about today, but I think this is really cool and we’re just going to roll with it, okay?

Joanna Bloor: [00:33:20] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:33:21] And that is because the question I’m really driving at, because you’ve uncovered something I think is important and I think that business people and executives and owners want to know is, how do you deroboticize your workforce? Right? Everybody is subject to this roboticism. And even the places where we don’t want people to be robots, look at customer service representatives, right? We all know they’re looking at a screen.

Mike Blake: [00:33:49] And based on what we tell the CSR on the other end of the phone, assuming they’re human, is that there’s an algorithm in front of them then telling them what the choices are they can give back to me in order to try to resolve whatever it is we’re trying to resolve, right? So, even there, they’re robots, it’s just that there’s a human interface to a robot, basically. So, maybe let’s go with number three, what are three things that an executive should be thinking about if they’re concerned that their workforce is too robotic, too going through the motions, too rigid, and encourage them to, you know, be the thoughtful, organic beings that is there in our nature.

Joanna Bloor: [00:34:34] Okay. Big question, but I will try and get it to three. So, the first one, I would say, is really looking at—so, if you know that you are currently getting roboticized humans, let’s just call them that for right now, the result that you were getting from your current processes of roboticized humans, then I sit here and I say like any products that you are looking at within your company, look at your purchase process.

Joanna Bloor: [00:35:03] You know, if you were buying software as an example, which is, in essence, it is the same thing you’re doing, you would have an RFP process and you would say like, were they nice to have, were they enough to have, like what is that entire purchase process that you are going through? And my guess is for any companies that if you really sat and broke it down and said like, what is—and let’s think about the sales process as a whole and the sale’s funnel starts with how you get into consideration sets.

Joanna Bloor: [00:35:38] What is that first step of consideration set for you? And is it what it is today for most people, which is resumes and keywords and all of those sorts of things. And maybe that is the right set of criteria to get somebody into consideration set. But then, I sit here and say, okay, then there’s the evaluation process of protecting somebody, which currently sits, sometimes, with recruiter, sometimes, with just the hiring manager and say like, are we actually interviewing, for lack of a better term, a robot or are we interviewing for critical thinking?

Joanna Bloor: [00:36:17] And then, the customer service world, like what is it you’re actually asking for and taking them through that? And so, really looking at your purchase process of somebody’s brain time and saying like, what are the different things that we should be looking for as opposed to what does the machine look like, which, I think, on the machine side, tends to lean more to, what are your experiences in the past? What is your skill set?

Joanna Bloor: [00:36:48] You know, I’ll actually use myself as an example of where I threw a purchase process completely out of the windows for a company when I was early in my career. You know, I was a manager of a high-end swimsuit store, where I think it was like $100 to $200 for a swimsuit sort of situation and had, through people that I knew, gotten an opportunity to interview for a dot-com, where I was going to shift from selling swimsuits to selling websites.

Joanna Bloor: [00:37:25] And in today’s world, I absolutely would have not made it through the consideration set because while sales was a consistent skill set, absolutely nothing else on my resume said anything about media, said anything about understanding how to sell to small to medium-sized business, like literally would have not made it through. But because I knew the right people, et cetera, I managed to get a meeting.

Joanna Bloor: [00:37:51] And in the process, and now, I look back on it, I could hear the VP himself really having a hard time trying to bridge my experience in the past with what he needed for me to be a critical thinker for in the future. And we were getting really stuck on a conversation about objection handling and did I know how to handle objections in the media space? And I remember saying to him quite sassily and I held my hands up and I said, “I’ve been selling a piece of fabric this big-“, put my hands fairly close together, “…to more than this big”, and I move my hands apart, then I said, “I’m making them feel great about themselves, at the end today, I don’t think objections are my problem.”.

Joanna Bloor: [00:38:34] And that started the whole hilarious conversation where we really talked about how we transferred, how I think about selling swimwear, and what was the decision-making process for a customer in a swimsuit store, and how did I bridge that to how that would also manifest in this whole internet world because the internet didn’t really exist and somehow, lots of stuff until I was given the opportunity to make that bridge and that required them to rethink their buying process.

Joanna Bloor: [00:39:02] And it worked out for all sorts of reasons. So, I sit here and I say, how do you think about how you were buying people and not necessarily saying, “Look, in my RFP process, they need to be this exact thing, go to this exact school, have this exact skill set.” Because unless you’re having that conversation, you can’t bridge. So, that’s the first one. The second one is really understanding as an employer, that your employers do their job, they don’t marry it.

Joanna Bloor: [00:39:35] It is a transaction. You are renting their brain. And right now, in the robot world, what if it’s just a cash transaction? Well, the only thing is like let’s look at how are you measuring success in the robot-based world. The only things that you can sit here and say like, this is where I can show success for the employee is compensation and title. And I sit here and I say, well, gosh, if you have a real conversation with an employee that, is compensation or title important? Absolutely. But is everything else important, too, because they’re multidimensional? Absolutely, as well.

Joanna Bloor: [00:40:20] And so, I look at it and I say like if you were working for somebody that you are an apprentice with us. And as an apprentice and you’re an apprentice for a, I don’t know how much time I’m going to get with you because it is a double-sided marketplace and my employee might choose to leave. And so, how do I sit here and say, where can I add value that actually helps them much more intrinsically to themselves.

Joanna Bloor: [00:40:48] As opposed to just saying, well, I’m going to add value by adding a ping pong table or bringing in lunch or whatever the pool sparkly thing is today or I’m in a different compensation and/or title and actually come back and say like, who is this human being and how can I actually help them? And I heard people say develop and grow, but it’s not just on their skills to make them more of a human, but actually development in their thinking approach. This brings back to my-

Mike Blake: [00:41:18] Yeah. How do you help them evolve?

Joanna Bloor: [00:41:20] Yeah. And now, I’m going to jump the shark for a second because I sit here and I say like I have been—I mean, I’ve been obsessed about this whole idea for decades and, you know, a lot of this whole narrative on how do you think about talent, which really forced upon me as an executive at Pandora, because I had a team that went from 30 to 400 over three years with revenue numbers that were around $100 million annually to $1 billion annually over that same period of time. And so, everything was moving at a ridiculous speed. And then, the majority of those 400 people were maybe second job out of college, 27, I think, was the average age. And what I realized really quickly was I couldn’t promote every single one of them every six months. Not physically possible.

Mike Blake: [00:42:16] Right.

Joanna Bloor: [00:42:17] I couldn’t give them a raise every single six months. So, coming back to this whole how do you have a conversation was about who they really are and what is their value to the organization completely shifted the narrative around who they were and what they were all about. And as the executive in charge, I would literally go around and be like, “This is why you are important and this is why you are important.” And we’d have a conversation around their value.

Joanna Bloor: [00:42:41] And it had a dramatic difference on their engagements, their tenure, their ability to collaborate with each other, all of those sorts of things. When I sit here and I say like, think about more as apprentices and that you get to borrow their brain. And how do you do that? But what I saw in not only getting our hand forced at Pandora but then, also, as I started to really study this phenomena out in the real world and started to build The Amplify Lab was that, I’d say, 99.9% of the people that I engage with, and it doesn’t matter if they are 18 or 60, have no idea who they want to be when they grow up.

Joanna Bloor: [00:43:27] There’s a tiny percent of people who go, “Oh, no, I have complete and utter clarity about who I want to be and how I can get there.” Well, actually, not necessarily how they can get there, but actually what that thing is or if they have an idea of who it is they want to be. And again, I’m going to come back to the, what are the experiences of the younger, and I say younger, I’m an old lady, younger generations is there’s so much feedback today. Like I just got tagged two times on Instagram today and I was like, “Well, look at that. I got an instant feedback.” There’s so much feedback on am I successful, et cetera. People are then also terrified of breaking the rules, which is also a part of the problem because we are these multidimensional people. So-

Mike Blake: [00:44:17] So-

Joanna Bloor: [00:44:17] I just sit here and I say, let’s-yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Mike Blake: [00:44:19] Well-

Joanna Bloor: [00:44:20] I really jumped the shark just on a bit there, but getting back in.

Mike Blake: [00:44:22] No. Well, actually, you segued because I think then the way to summarize that is, is that third principle is really get to know your employees.

Joanna Bloor: [00:44:29] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:44:30] And get to know them for who they are, not what their resumé says they are.

Joanna Bloor: [00:44:35] Right. And it’s not get to know them and say like, “How are your kids”, and all of that sort of stuff, it’s—and thank you for helping me bridge it back—just get to know them, but also help them see themselves and see what their potential could be. And I have absolutely no doubt that every single one of your listeners has a person, whether they have worked for them or not, but they have engaged with where they’ve gone, “Wow, this person has enormous potential and I’m going to put my relationship capital on the line for them and open doors for them and make connections and guide them.” Some people might call this mentors. I think that’s the wrong thing. I think that they are sponsors.

Mike Blake: [00:45:25] Yeah.

Joanna Bloor: [00:45:26] Because when you are putting your own capital on the line, it’s a little bit different. But we sit here and we look at this contract of potential and that is what we’re looking for. Reverse that transaction and say, okay, who are the people who saw that in your personal career path up? And I’ll tell you today, if any one of the people who opened doors for me, who taught me things that made me better, that said, “Gosh, Joanna. Here is your potential”, if they picked up the phone today and said, “Hey, Joanna, I need something from you” or “Hey, Joanna, will you come work with me on-“, whatever it is they’re doing, I would drop everything and go do stuff for them.

Joanna Bloor: [00:46:13] And you sit here and as a manager and you say, okay, how do I get my entire organization to be that excited to work with you? It’s because you have seen the potential in them. And, again, it’s coming back to that double-sided marketplace. And if anybody is listening who is an employee, I sit here and say like, consider that in who you’re working with and that, “Yes, we absolutely want you to do a good job and there’s stuff that needs to get done.”.

Joanna Bloor: [00:46:51] But we are hired, we are promoted, we are given opportunities based on our potential, and it is justified by our past. And so, having that whole conversation about potential and not only for the individual, but what is at their life that they want to go down? And how do you get to know them and know that it’s not just—although, again, because we live in this binary business construct, how do you take just title and compensation off the table and have a conversation about what will actually stretch you, help you grow, help you learn, you know, what is your potential, where am I seeing patterns of something that you’re uniquely good at that maybe you haven’t even considered them?

Joanna Bloor: [00:47:41] Instead of, you know, being almost myopic and saying, “I’m going to follow this career path to be X”. And of course, you want to be a physician and then, I think we will observe a bit different there. But how do you get off that path and actually start to pattern what has happened with business and technology, which again, I’ll say they have shifted and used some of the business constructs of agile developments and beta testing ideas and redeploying one part of the organization, another part of the organization. You would take all of these constructs and do them with human things as well, which allow for a much more multidimensional workplace.

Joanna Bloor: [00:48:26] Like some of my favorite team members in all of my jobs who worked with me were ones that I gave to other departments and said, “I think they’d be really great for you.” While, yes, they don’t have any experience in fill in the blank here, legal, finance, creative, employee development, didn’t matter, but they showed the potential in this space and helping them move into that space. I’ve now got an ally in another part of the company who we’ve got this great relationship with and it always ends up paying off and allows the person to actually start to make more of a portfolio of who they are.

Mike Blake: [00:49:07] So, Joanna, as I predicted, I blinked and about an hour has gone by, so we will have to continue this at some point. But I want to thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation. If somebody wants to pick this up with you, how can they best reach you?

Joanna Bloor: [00:49:24] Well, I am across all of the social medias at Joanna Bloor. I have them all, so come find me anywhere there or they can go to joannabloor.com and find out how to contact us there. Very easy to get through. Clearly, I can talk about all of this ad nauseam and like the nicest notes like say, we are all different, so we will have different questions. So, it’s important to think about how that looks for you.

Mike Blake: [00:49:54] So, before we go, I’m going to test your social media street cred. Do you have a TikTok account?

Joanna Bloor: [00:50:01] No.

Mike Blake: [00:50:03] That’s a shame.

Joanna Bloor: [00:50:04] I know. You know, I am too wary of data and data privacy issues. In my former life, I was an ad technology executive.

Mike Blake: [00:50:17] Okay.

Joanna Bloor: [00:50:19] I have yet to be convinced that that is an environment where the data of me is actually where I want it to be. And so, yeah, I’m going to hold off on TikTok. Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:50:34] Well, when you do, hopefully, you’ll do something—

Joanna Bloor: [00:50:36] It is off at the moment.

Mike Blake: [00:50:36] When you do, since you’re a child of the ’80s, as am I, I’m hoping you’ll do a Pat Benatar cover and then, make that available.

Joanna Bloor: [00:50:45] Perfect. Done.

Mike Blake: [00:50:46] So, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Johanna Bloor so much for joining us and sharing her expertise with us. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 46: Does My Corporate Culture Need More Humor? – Karyn Buxman, The HumorLab

January 9, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 46: Does My Corporate Culture Need More Humor? - Karyn Buxman, The HumorLab

00:00 /

Decision Vision Episode 46: Does My Corporate Culture Need More Humor? – Karyn Buxman, The HumorLab

Does my corporate culture need more humor? What are the benefits of humor in the workplace? What’s the best way to inject humor while avoiding the risks? Answers to these questions and much more come from neurohumorist Karyn Buxman on this edition of “Decision Vision.” Mike Blake is the host of “Decision Vision,” presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Karyn Buxman, The HumorLab

Karyn Buxman is Founder and President of The HumorLab. The HumorLab is dedicated to serving high performers who have gone from good to great and now want to go from great to world class through the use of strategic humor.

Karyn Buxman is a research-based thought leader on applied humor, whose latest undertakings are her TEDx talk—“How Humor Saved the World”—and her upcoming Forbes book, Funny Means Money. Strategic Humor for Influence & World Domination. As a neurohumorist Karyn’s career resides at the intersection of humor and the brain. She is as masterfully funny, but her passion and calling are sharing the practical benefits of humor.

Karyn is one of 194 professionals (and one of only 43 women) in the world to be inducted into the Speaker Hall of Fame. Karyn speaks internationally to organizations that grasp the important role humor plays in business, health and life. Among her 800+ clients over 25 years are Genentech, State Farm, USDA, Cigna and the Million Dollar Roundtable.

For more information, go to Karyn’s website or You can also download a copy of Karyn’s new book, Funny Means Money, at humorforme.com.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

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Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

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Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:20] And welcome back to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what decision to make, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:41] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton, Columbus, Ohio, Richmond, Indiana, and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we’re recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:05] So, today, we’re going to discuss humor in the workplace and injecting humor into a workplace culture. And I’m sure everybody who is listening to this podcast is thinking, “Well, you work for a CPA firm. That’s a perfect place to start talking about humor in the workplace”, because obviously, we sort of yak it up all day long. We’re just known for that. Although in our defense, I will point out that probably—certainly, the top three comedians, Bob Newhart actually started his career as a CPA.

Mike Blake: [00:01:38] Obviously, the entertainment gig did very well by him, but accountants do produce funny people at least once in a generation, so it can happen. But, you know, I think this topic is so important and so interesting. We’re learning more about the state of mental health in the workplace and we’re learning more about—and this is related to so-called work-life balance and we’re learning about the pressure that we’re under, as we’re always under increasing pressure to kind of do more with less.

Mike Blake: [00:02:15] And, you know, we’re hearing more about people, frankly, kind of struggle to adapt to that. And we struggle to adapt to that. Whether you’re a line worker, whether you’re a cashier, whether you’re middle management, whether you’re executive management, whether you are the owner of the business, there is always something out there that is going to challenge you mentally. And most of us, myself included, feel like there’s something out there, every hour, to challenge us mentally.

Mike Blake: [00:02:46] And it can lead to places, you know, that are humorless places to work. And places that are humorless places to work, as our guest is going to discuss, are neither pleasant nor very effective workplaces. And there’s a fine line, and maybe not so fine line, we’re going to find out that, you know, just because you have a sense of humor and there’s a sense of humor and humoring in the business culture, that does not mean that you don’t take your job seriously.

Mike Blake: [00:03:21] You know, for example, Southwest Airlines is known for encouraging their employees, you go in a Southwest flight, right? Some of those flight attendants could easily be stand-up comedians and maybe they are when they’re not actually on a flight. But I’m also confident that they take flight safety very seriously because they all want to make it home. But I think there’s a misperception. And in my industry, I think particularly if you’re old school, you want to create this image of being sort of the buttoned down, very serious person, because you’re talking about finance, you’re talking about money, you’re talking about financial stability and solvency.

Mike Blake: [00:04:01] And, you know, for some clients, maybe that’s right. For others, maybe it’s not. So, I think we’re going to have a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot to learn from this topic today. And joining us today is an expert on this topic from beautiful San Diego. So, in contrast to Atlanta, where it’s currently 38 and raining and overcast, about three layers of clouds, let me just take a guess, well, it’s 9:00 a.m. there, so it’s probably about 72 and sunny there?

Karyn Buxman: [00:04:34] Well, it’s not quite that warm. I mean, it’s chilly here, it’s probably 64.

Mike Blake: [00:04:39] Oh, okay. Well, hopefully you can throw a sweater on, you’ll be able to pull through it. So, Karyn is founder of the Humor Lab. And the Humor Lab is dedicated to serving high performers who have gone from good to great and now want to go from great to world class with the use of strategic humor. Karyn Buxman is a research-based thought leader in applied humor whose latest undertakings are her TEDx talk, How Humor Saved the World and her upcoming ForbesBook, Funny Makes Money, Strategic Humor for Influence and World Domination.

Mike Blake: [00:05:10] As a neurohumorist, Karyn’s career resides at the intersection of humor and the brain. She is as masterfully funny, but her passion and calling are sharing the practical benefits of humor. Karyn is one of 194 professionals and one of only 43 women in the world to be inducted into the Speaker Hall of Fame. Karyn speaks internationally to organizations that grasp the important role that humor plays in business, health, and life. Among her over 800 clients over 25 years are Genentech, State Farm, now an Atlanta-based company, the US Department of Agriculture, Cigna, and the Million Dollar Roundtable. Karyn, thanks so much for coming on the program.

Karyn Buxman: [00:05:52] Mike, I’m so excited to be here with you.

Mike Blake: [00:05:55] So, Karyn, I’ve got to ask one question right off the bat. I’m tearing up the script, but I know you can handle it. What are the speeches like at the International Speaker Hall of Fame? When somebody gives an induction speech at the Speaker Hall of Fame, what are they like?

Karyn Buxman: [00:06:10] You know, I have to say, it’s really kind of a weird situation because let me put it this way, how many speakers does it take to change a light bulb? Yeah, 100. One can change a light bulb and 99 to sit in the audience going, “That should be me up there on the stage.” And that’s kind of how it is, you know, with the Hall of Fame. But it’s wonderful. I think that’s one of the accomplishments that I most treasure because, you know, it’s one thing when your mom or your spouse says, “Oh, my God, you’re the best thing since Velcro.” But when your peers say that, that’s very, very rewarding. So, I feel very honored to have received that award, that I can have-

Mike Blake: [00:07:01] Yeah. I can imagine.

Karyn Buxman: [00:07:01] … that recognition.

Mike Blake: [00:07:02] Where are they located?

Karyn Buxman: [00:07:06] The National Speakers Association is actually a global organization and their headquarters are located in Tempe, part of Phoenix, in Arizona.

Mike Blake: [00:07:19] Okay. Very good. Because the next time I go to Phoenix, I can visit and see your plaque and your induction speech and all that, I guess.

Karyn Buxman: [00:07:26] Yeah, you know. And I have this little statue, it’s kind of like the Oscars.

Mike Blake: [00:07:30] Sweet.

Karyn Buxman: [00:07:31] And so, that’s sitting on one of my shelves. And so, yeah. But not to take it too seriously, like don’t tell the headquarters I did this because they would probably be agog. But I found online these little outfits that you could get for wine bottles to dress them up, you know, kind of like, I guess, there was one for weddings and there was one for various kinds of holidays, a Santa outfit or a 4th of July outfit that you could put on a wine bottle to gift it. And it fits my statue perfectly. So, periodically, we dress it up.

Mike Blake: [00:08:10] Well, good. And we both know how hard it can be to find something that sits off the rack so that works out well.

Karyn Buxman: [00:08:16] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:08:19] So, you categorize yourself as a neurohumorist. What is that?

Karyn Buxman: [00:08:25] Yes. A neurohumorist is one who lives at the intersection of humor and the brain. I have been researching the field of humor within the field of psychoneuroimmunology and positive psychology for thirty years. And over the last decade, I’ve really delved deep into humor and the effects on the brain and vice versa. And it’s just amazing. It really was. It was like the missing piece. And so much of what I have discovered in the last couple of years is what I think makes this so pertinent for you and for your listeners. Because really, so much of the interactions with your listeners and your executive, these are the things that our brain-based.

Karyn Buxman: [00:09:22] And it really helps us get a better understanding of why we behave like we do and why others respond to us like they do and how can we influence that. And so, the brain piece is something that people, you know, up until now had not really looked at. What is the relationship between humor and the brain? But this is the sweet spot. This is really the sweet spot. And so, the people who are listening to us today, both of them, they’re going to be-

Mike Blake: [00:09:56] We had a spike.

Karyn Buxman: [00:09:57] … drawing information that is very cutting edge. This gives them a competitive edge even.

Mike Blake: [00:10:04] So, are you teaching leaders of the Genentechs and State Farms of the world then, you know, how to how to be funny? I don’t know who their CEOs are, but, you know, are they now qualified to do stand-up or what does that look like?

Karyn Buxman: [00:10:23] I’m so happy you asked that because this is the biggest misconception that when I’m teaching people or encouraging people to leverage the power of humor, that what I’m really talking about is entertainment. How do you get other people to laugh? And that is not the case. What I’ve identified are three purposes of humor. And the first purpose of humor is entertainment. And that’s the one that everybody knows and is familiar with.

Karyn Buxman: [00:11:03] And when our purpose is entertainment, we measure our success by laughter. But there’s two other purposes. One of the purposes is influence and the other is well-being. And just in your intro, when you were talking, I thought, “Oh, man. Boom, boom. Both of those are relevant to our listeners today.” And so, with influence, we don’t measure the success of humor and influence by laughter, we measure it by the quality of the relationships that we have.

Karyn Buxman: [00:11:41] And with well-being, we measure the success of applied humor by the levels of health and wellness within areas that are physical, psychological, social, and even spiritual. So, it’s this power of humor when you apply it. And when you apply humor to business, you can create success. When you apply it in profitability, when you apply to education, you can create more knowledge. When you apply it to health, we can create well-being. When you apply humor to an individual situation, we can create even intimacy. And when we apply it to a group, we can create community.

Karyn Buxman: [00:12:28] And so, it goes so far beyond being funny, which is great. Because when I’m talking to high performers, one of the top three push-backs I get is, “What if I’m not funny?” And I say, “Great because you don’t have to be funny”, which I know a bunch of accountants are going, “Oh, my God, thank God, you’re so right on.” I mean, oh, my gosh, Bob Newhart, he just makes me laugh so hard, I cry. And if there is anyone listening who has not ever listened to the piece on Bob Newhart as the psychologist, he’s trying to help a woman stop her OCD habits and phobias, it’s fall down, hysterical.

Karyn Buxman: [00:13:15] So, you know, here we go, we’re not trying to be funny, we’re trying to see funny. We’re trying to raise our awareness, raise our appreciation of humor so that we can experience it more. And in so doing, now, we recognize and can leverage opportunities of humor so that we can use those in our efforts to be more persuasive, be more informative, be more relatable, all of those kinds of things. And so, for everyone listening today, here’s a big takeaway, you don’t have to be the humor initiator, you can be the humor appreciator and you can still gain the benefit of humor in furthering your success.

Mike Blake: [00:14:10] Well, okay. And even if you think about entertainment, right? I mean, Dean Martin and Ed McMahon did pretty well being the straight guys, right?

Karyn Buxman: [00:14:18] Yes. Yes. And when you recognize the power of humor and to leverage humor, you can leverage other people’s humor. You don’t have to be the funny person. You can leverage your client’s humor. You can leverage humor that has to do with your environment. You can leverage humor that’s going on in the news. There’s all different ways that you can use that without ever having to say something funny yourself. Although I will say, if you practice appreciating humor on a regular basis, most people will get funnier. I mean, you can’t help it.

Karyn Buxman: [00:15:05] Here’s a quick little story, because I do entertain audiences, I mean, from 10 to 10,000-plus around the planet and I do make people laugh and I had a gentleman come up to me after one of my presentations and he said, “Oh, my gosh, were you always this funny?” And nobody has ever asked me that before. And I thought, “Yeah, I guess so.” But a couple of months later, I went back home. I met with my mom and I said, “Hey, mom, by the way, was I always funny?” And she looked at me and kind of kept her head thoughtfully and then, she said, “No.” And my mouth dropped up. And she said, “You were always the one with the sunny disposition.”

Karyn Buxman: [00:15:48] And at first, I was a little taken aback. But then, I got excited because what I realized was that because of my research and because I was so excited about the benefits, I was willing to practice more humor. I was willing to take a few more risks because the benefits outweighed the risks. And I became funnier in the process. And so, I think that others can also go down this path of appreciating humor, studying humor, experiencing humor. And eventually, they could be funny, too, if they desire. Not everybody wants to be funny.

Mike Blake: [00:16:30] So, let me share with you an experience we had in our firm. So, when I joined Brady Ware, because I’m a geek and I worked in the really quant jock area of our firm, I decided that we would celebrate Pi Day, which is, of course, March 14th. And we celebrate it promptly at 1:59 p.m. and 27 seconds, right?

Karyn Buxman: [00:16:52] I love it.

Mike Blake: [00:16:53] And so, the first thing we did, I ran out and I bought a bunch of pies. I had a bunch of pies and I was fine. This year, you know, I was told we have a fun committee. Okay. So, nothing says more fun than a committee. But anyway, I went to the committee and I said, “Hey, regarding this Pi Day, do you want to do anything different?” And they said, “You know, what we really like to do is we would like to throw pies at the partners.” And I said, “Okay, well, if you can convince the other partners and partners are in, I’m in.” And to the partners’ credit, they all readily said, “Yeah, I’m in.” Now, none of them, I think, are people that necessarily—I mean, some of them can crack a joke, others are more not the joke crackers. But, you know, everybody stood up there and took their pie lumps for about 15 minutes or so.

Karyn Buxman: [00:17:45] Oh, my God.

Mike Blake: [00:17:46] And I think you can predict what the morale impact on the company was on that exercise. We didn’t say a joke, we didn’t do anything that was funny, but we let ourselves be part of a gag. We let ourselves be the target of a gag.

Karyn Buxman: [00:18:03] Oh, my God, you’ve just opened the—number one, that is awesome. That is an incredible story. And two, let’s break this down. Can we unpack this for a minute?

Mike Blake: [00:18:16] That’s why I brought it up. We’re just going to tear out the script. This may be a three-parter.

Karyn Buxman: [00:18:20] Yes. So, here’s something, let’s unpack this a little bit, because one, you know, I think as we also celebrate Pi Day and then, there was Ultimate Pi Day, which was 3.14.15. And that was like, we’re kind of geeky around that as well. But in allowing your people to be the recipients of the humor, you allowed them to be the recipients of the humor, and in so doing, now, they have shown a little bit of vulnerability.

Karyn Buxman: [00:18:59] And in that vulnerability, this is where we create trust equity. Trust equity. Because earlier, we were talking about brains. And with brains, we have a state when we are leaning toward an individual, when we are connecting with an individual, when our brain chemicals are in a toward state of connection. This is something that facilitates relationship rapport, bonding. But when our brains are in an away state, when your epinephrine is going up and when our cortisol is going up and when our dopamine is going down and serotonin is going down and all these other connecting hormones and proteins, this is when we call this an away state.

Karyn Buxman: [00:19:57] And when we’re in an away state, it can be a low level stress, it can be a fear. The purpose of our brains are to protect us. And so, it’s always looking for threat. And you guys may not want to hear this, but, you know, as somebody who is in the field of managing people’s money, you automatically put someone’s brain in a threat state. I would say anybody who handles someone’s money or somebody’s body, you are working with a clientele whose brain is in an away state, a threat state.

Karyn Buxman: [00:20:37] How do you reverse that? Because if the brain is in an away state and the person’s amygdala is hijacked, you know, you’re not going to be able to inform them. You’re not going to be able to help them. You’re not going to be able to persuade them to the degree that you could if they were in a toward state. And humor creates that toward state. And so, what you did in so doing this exercise was the people who allowed someone to throw pies at them, they’re showing, in a humorous way, some vulnerability. And other people look at that and say, “Wow, that person is a little bit vulnerable. And that means I am safer.” And so, this isn’t even at a conscious level.

Karyn Buxman: [00:21:33] But anybody who would learn about this as a client or as a potential client or customer, that helps create that toward state. And in so doing, even among the team, now, we’ve created a toward state so that people are connecting more, the morale improves, the connectedness improves. And for so many reasons, you facilitated that and you probably didn’t even intentionally know that that was going to be the outcome. But here’s the great thing, now, you do. And with great power comes great responsibility, Mike. So, now, you want to look for other opportunities to create that toward state intentionally, because that’s what strategic humor is about. It’s humor by choice, not by chance.

Mike Blake: [00:22:30] Yeah. So-

Karyn Buxman: [00:22:32] Kudos to you.

Mike Blake: [00:22:32] Well, thank you. You know, it’s actually not that hard to have a pie thrown on your face, so if I can put that on my LinkedIn as a skill, I will. So, let me ask. So, the second part to this then is there is debate as to whether or not we’re going to post the pictures and videos on social media. We decided to do that. Did we do the right thing or wrong thing there?

Karyn Buxman: [00:22:59] It depends. I would say yes. I would say it’s the right thing to do. And I will say that there have been other professions who have posted similar kinds of situations. And occasionally, they get some push-back. But here’s what I would say, I’ve identified seven building blocks that are fundamental to successful humor in terms of influence. And those seven are bond, environments, authenticity, safety, distance and that’s both temporal and geographical content and delivery.

Karyn Buxman: [00:23:44] But the very first one, bond, is one that is so important and one that people often misunderstand. And what you’re asking actually has to do with the first one, bond, and the second one, environment. So, let’s look at this. In terms of bond, the question is, did this move trust equity forward with the people that you were sharing it with? And my guess is, yes, with your target audience, with your avatar, with the people that you know and that know you.

Karyn Buxman: [00:24:23] The biggest mistake that people make when they share humor is to not understand the relationship between themselves and the person they’re sharing the humor with. And our brains are designed as such that at times, we misunderstand or we misperceive how alike we really are. Like, “Oh, well, you know, I’m in Atlanta, he’s in Atlanta, we both like the same sports team, so we probably vote for the same person.” Well, that’s not a good assumption.

Karyn Buxman: [00:25:00] And, you know, we probably like the same kind of humor. Same kind of thing, not necessarily safe to assume. But the more you know your audience and kind of the longer period of time, the more trust equity you’ve built up, the riskier humor can be. But I’m going to stay on bond, I’m going to say yes, with your avatar, that would be totally appropriate. In terms of environment, the question is, has your humor been shared with anybody who is outside of your circle, outside of your group of trust?

Karyn Buxman: [00:25:40] And with social media, that’s harder to control. Because not only can you share it with your group, but they can share it to others outside your group. I’m going to say still, this is benign enough because if we go to the building block of safety, could anybody have been physically or emotionally hurt? You know, there’s a small chance that somebody could have been hurt with a pie in the face. You know, it’s like, well, what if, you know, they left the aluminum part of it on and that hit somebody-

Mike Blake: [00:26:15] Right.

Karyn Buxman: [00:26:15] … on their skin or in their eyeball?

Mike Blake: [00:26:17] Somebody hit you a frozen chicken pot pie, that would not turn out as well.

Karyn Buxman: [00:26:20] Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, could anybody feel bullied or embarrassed? You know, well, there’s a there’s a possibility, but it still feels pretty low if they voluntarily stepped up, pardon the pun to the pie plate. So, with all of those things, I’m going to say that the benefits would outweigh the risks. You know, if somebody is offended, why would they be offended? Because, you know, there’s some kind of a secret organization that is anti pie in the face? I mean, I can’t really even think of it.

Karyn Buxman: [00:26:57] You know, there’s going to be some, they’re like, “Oh, my gosh, is that really professional?” And again, those people have the misunderstanding, somewhere along the way, we confuse professionalism with solemnness. I’m not sure where that happened because we have leaders who are tremendously influential, who are incredibly professional, who are looked upon in the highest regard. You look at, you know, Churchill, you look at Gandhi, you look at President Kennedy and Reagan, I mean, there’s Lincoln, all these people were recognized as influential leaders and professional and yet they had an amazing sense of humor. So, I think that what you did was awesome.

Mike Blake: [00:27:51] So, where is that line or is there a line between, you know, humor and crossing that line to undermining your credibility? Is there some meter or some scale where, you know, you’re trying to be too yak yak and therefore, it’s going to make a little bit—you know, as you’re being wheeled in for brain surgery, do you necessarily want a knock knock joke out of the people in the operating room or, you know,I mean, maybe you do because it’ll take some of the tension out before they drill in your head, I’m not sure. But can you go too far with it?

Karyn Buxman: [00:28:33] This is such a great question and this is why I’m guaranteed, you know, enough work for my lifetime. There is a line, but it’s not a stationary line. That line is moving and it is moving based on those seven building blocks. And I actually have devised a tool where when I’m working with groups or when I’m consulting with someone, we take these situations and we actually break them down. We quantify each of these seven steps so that people can begin to get a feel for, where is that line?

Karyn Buxman: [00:29:17] Because sometimes, we intuitively know it. Sometimes, we misjudge it. And when you do cross that line or fall over that line, you want to pick yourself back up and then, you want to examine what happens. If someone was offended, you want to address that with them. And then, you want to learn from it and do it again. You want to adjust. It’s a scientific process. You know, you create your hypothesis. You put into place an action. And then, you observe, you assess what was the result of that action. And then, you adjust and you repeat.

Karyn Buxman: [00:30:01] And so, these are the kinds of things in terms of that moving line. But I mean, we all know the person who recognized that, “Oh, humor is a good thing, so we’re going to use more humor.” And then, they just become obnoxious because they try to be humorous or funny all the time. You know, I had mentioned earlier that one of the push-backs I get is, “What if I’m not funny?” A second concern that I hear is, “Well, what if everybody’s goofing off? We’ll never get anything done around here.”.

Karyn Buxman: [00:30:33] And here’s the key to this, the key to this is you need to have intentionally your goal, your desired outcome, your standards. And then, you also set the tone for humor. And here’s why, because you pair the two. Because if you only set the tone for high performance and hard work and high aspirations and that’s all that you do, eventually, people assume that the philosophy at work is the firings will continue until morale improves. If you only set the tone for humor without having a high benchmark for performance, then it becomes Animal House. And if anybody here is listening to this and doesn’t know the reference to Animal House and John Belushi, go look that up on YouTube.

Karyn Buxman: [00:31:35] But when you pair the two, now, you have high expectations per performance and you have set the tone for humor. And now, people have a better guideline of where to go. But for leaders to actually mentor their followers, their colleagues, their co-workers, their clients, their students, their family, to mentor others on the appropriate use of humor so that you leverage it and get the most benefits from it, I think, is really to be in a sweet spot.

Mike Blake: [00:32:12] So, let’s dig into this. You know, we’ve talked around this a little bit, but I want to make sure that we hit this hard, because it really is the heart of the topic, which is, you know, what benefits can I expect by creating a—is it fair to call it a humor-centric, if you will, business culture? And I think that’s important, because one of the things about humor is that there is risk. There is risk to humor-

Karyn Buxman: [00:32:41] Yes. Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:32:41] … which is one of the things we admire people who do it well. And if there’s risk, there’s got to be some return on the other end. So, you know, for companies that you’ve helped or have tried to help, you know, what is the carrot that makes it worth the risk of adopting or integrating humor into the culture?

Karyn Buxman: [00:33:00] God, that’s a great question. And I have identified 10 habits of high-performance humor. And one of those habits is risk management. And quite frankly, most of the listeners are in some form of risk management. And, you know, you want to look at, particularly, the seven building blocks that I spoke of and understand how to really embrace those and practice those so that you lower your risk. I think that if you really understand those seven building blocks, you embrace them, you practice them. I think you reduce your risk down to as low as 1 percent.

Karyn Buxman: [00:33:44] You know, there’s always going to be the oddball who comes in with their own agenda and their own backpack filled with all of their complaints and concerns. And it doesn’t matter how carefully you tiptoe, it doesn’t matter even if you’re not using humor, they’re going to find something to be offended about. So, the risks, I think, are worthy of noting and you really do need to include risk management. But in terms of benefits, it’s physiological, psychological, social, all of these things.

Karyn Buxman: [00:34:20] In terms of executives who are listening, I think one of the most exciting benefits that we’ve identified now is the cognitive capacity. The fact is that cognitive capacity, which is more or less a snapshot of your cognitive ability at any given time, we can increase cognitive capacity. And here’s how that works, humor is the connecting of two ideas that are not alike, that are disconnected. And when we connect those two disconnected dots, we create neuroplasticity.

Karyn Buxman: [00:35:06] We’re creating new pathways in our brain. And this creates a cascade effect. Because when we connect the disconnected dots and we create this neuroplasticity, which creates a higher level of cognitive ability, this, in turn, results in a higher level of problem-solving, which, in effect, allows an executive, particularly, your CEO level. They’re the visionaries. They’re the ones that need to have that cognitive capacity that is so high that they can forecast into the future.

Karyn Buxman: [00:35:44] When we did brain studies on people who were experiencing humor, one of the things that my colleague, Dr. Lee Berk, who is a leading researcher up in Loma Linda, discovered was that the brain pattern that we see is inclusive of gamma waves and the gamma wave pattern, which we’ve only been able to measure with digital technology, which has been created in the last decade or so. This is the same gamma wave pattern that we see in people who practice deep meditation and deep mindfulness. And people may say, “Well, so what?” Well, you know, who here couldn’t use more focus? Who couldn’t use a little more productivity? Who couldn’t use a little more creativity? Now, I know for people in accounting, you don’t want to get too wild and crazy for the creativity.

Mike Blake: [00:36:45] We could use more, believe me.

Karyn Buxman: [00:36:49] But these are the benefits cognitively. One of the things that you mentioned in the intro was this can be wearing and tearing on somebody, this field that you’re in. In terms of the financial world, whether it’s in accounting or financial management or whatever area that someone may be in, if they experience any kind of stress, what we have found is that short-term humor is an amazing coping ability. It’s a healthy coping mechanism.

Karyn Buxman: [00:37:22] And when practiced consistently and over time, we find that we can build resilience. And so, who in this field wouldn’t want to benefit from that? Socially, we benefit from bonding, whether that’s with our customer and our client or whether it’s our colleagues, our families, our friends. We find that it also is raising levels of emotion so that for people who are experiencing depression, we can move them up the emotional scale so that eventually they could achieve happiness, you know, at least for periods of time. Well, I think that’s very exciting. Who wouldn’t like a little more happiness? And then, of course, there’s all of the financial benefits that we can recognize.

Karyn Buxman: [00:38:11] Because in a sales process, you know, when we get people in a toward brain state, people make their purchases based on emotions. Logic tells that emotion sells. You can give them all sorts of data. But unless there is some kind of an emotional hook, they’re probably going to continue to shop around and get more information until they find that emotional hook to buy. And so, I would ask who’s in sales and maybe one or two people raise their hands. No, we’re all in sales. Whether you’re trying to sell an idea or sell a concept, sell your services, you know, negotiate a bedtime with a five-year old. Oh, my gosh. Five-year olds are like the most intense negotiators on the planet.

Mike Blake: [00:39:02] I think negotiating the Vietnam peace accord was easier than negotiating the typical bedtime with a five-year old.

Karyn Buxman: [00:39:08] Isn’t that the truth?

Mike Blake: [00:39:09] Henry Kissinger probably had a very hard time getting his kids to bed and that literally prepared him for Vietnam.

Karyn Buxman: [00:39:17] Isn’t that so? Isn’t that so? So, we’re all in sales, which is most people don’t realize it. And so, humor helps with that. You know, it helps with that. For those in positions of leadership, you know, when you read Cialdini’s book on influence and persuasion, you know, the number one influencer that he enlisted is likability. All things being equal, people would rather do business with someone that they find fun, that they find likable, that they find enjoyable. And so, these are some of the few reasons that people would want to start incorporating more humor into their work environment, into their corporate culture, because they’re going to find so many of these benefits come their way when they practice it intentionally and consistently. Those are two key factors that are really, really important to get the benefits.

Mike Blake: [00:40:23] So, good. So, let’s then drill down to the next step. I’m listening to this podcast and I decide that my company would benefit from having more humor integrated into its culture. At a high level, what are the steps to that look like?

Karyn Buxman: [00:40:44] I would encourage people first just to really assess where they are on the scale of both humor appreciation and humor application. I developed an assessment called the Humor Quotient, or HQ. We’ve heard of IQ, EQ, this is HQ. And I’ll give you the thumbnail version of this. And then, for people who would like to learn more about it, there is a download we can tell them about at the end of this conversation that we’re having.

Karyn Buxman: [00:41:22] And the humor quotient measures, again, your appreciation on a scale of one to 10, how easily can you find amusement that results in a smile, a laugh, or feelings of enjoyment. And then, on a scale of one to 10, how readily and how frequently do you apply humor toward a desired outcome intentionally and consistently over time? And we have, you know, a questionnaire that goes into a little more detail than that.

Karyn Buxman: [00:42:07] But first, just get a picture where you are and understand a little bit about that and where there are areas for improvement. I have found that one of the most important steps is the appreciation, because what I started out doing in this process was teaching people how to apply humor, realizing that they didn’t have an appreciation of humor enough to even understand and recognize where those opportunities were for the application.

Karyn Buxman: [00:42:42] And so, you know, I have a process that I take people through. But first of all, I would say manipulate your mindset. Ask yourself, you know, are you finding and experiencing the humor that surrounds you? Now, I’ll tell you, some people are thinking to themselves, “Well, she doesn’t understand. There’s nothing funny. In my life, there’s nothing funny about my work. You know, my family’s not funny, my coworkers aren’t funny. There’s nothing funny.”.

Karyn Buxman: [00:43:13] And I will tell you right now, if that is your belief, that is your reality. Because I’m going to tell you, there’s humor abundant around you the majority of the time. And again, this goes back to our brain process of recognizing it, because there’s a brain formation that’s about the size of your finger and it’s called the reticular activating system. And when you tell your brain that you want to be aware of something, this part of your brain is activated and it will start showing you more of that.

Karyn Buxman: [00:43:50] It’s like, you know, I bought a yellow car and then, you start looking out on the highway and all of a sudden, you see all these yellow cars and you think, “Oh, my gosh, where did these come from? I’ve never seen a yellow car out on the highway before.” But you’re your brain now is raising your awareness to be able to see those. So, start looking for the humor around you and you’re going to find it on a more regular basis. Manipulate your mindset.

Karyn Buxman: [00:44:15] Manipulate your environment is the second thing I would encourage people to do. And that is how can you increase the likelihood of experiencing more humor? What can you do to put in your environment so that you can have it readily available? Do you have humorous books or cues, that’s C-U-E-S, cues, which are a reminder of lightening up. My husband and I love Comic-Con. And anybody who’s ever watched Big Bang Theory would have heard of Comic-Con.

Karyn Buxman: [00:44:53] It’s this huge nerdy conference. 140,000 people over four days here in San Diego. And, you know, cosplay and all that other stuff. But we love that. It makes us smile. It makes us laugh. It makes us feel good. And so, around our house, we have little things from Comic-Con that when we see them, we feel better. How can you do that? You never have to be further than your phone to have humor at your disposal now, there’s apps, there’s websites, there’s social media.

Karyn Buxman: [00:45:24] I keep funny audio books. I bookmark funny videos. And as a last resort, here’s a humor hack. If you’re in a bad mood, you Google laughing babies. It’s like go to YouTube, laughing babies. If you can’t smile when you are watching laughing babies or at least internally have that feeling of amusement, then you need to call me. It’s like we need to work on this. This is an emergency situation. Because anybody with a healthy brain, because of your mirror neurons, you’re going to find some amusement in that and you’re going to feel better.

Karyn Buxman: [00:46:10] But manipulating your mindset and manipulating your environment, finding an accountability partner. I have a partner and every day, we have made a commitment to one another that we’re going to send something to one another. And here was the benefit that I didn’t anticipate, but now, I’m fully enjoying. Every morning, I spend 15 to 20 minutes looking for something that I know she will enjoy and that is appropriate for her.

Karyn Buxman: [00:46:40] But now, what I’m doing is I am starting my day framing it by looking for humor. Do you know how much that positively affects my mood and my outlook for the next part of my day? It’s been a wonderful benefit for me and I thought I was doing it for her. I still get the dopamine hit because I’m doing an act of kindness and paying it forward. But it’s really a double-benefit, I get to do something for her and for myself.

Karyn Buxman: [00:47:18] And I think the last thing that I would tell people, and there’s so much more but because of our time, I would tell them, become a student of humor. That’s another one of the humor habits, is become a student of humor. This is a new field. It’s an exploding field. Compared to other fields, it’s really still very young in its existence. And there are magazines. There are books. There are organizations.

Karyn Buxman: [00:47:46] There’s a nonprofit organization, I have no financial ties to this organization, but the organization is called the Association for Applied and Therapeutic Humor, aath.org. They have all different kinds of articles and resources on their website. I have lots of articles and resources and books and things that I would love to share with people. But find a resource that works for you and study this and then, practice it on a consistent basis. How does that sound? Does that resonate with you?

Mike Blake: [00:48:21] Yeah. And I love the part about, you know, becoming a student of humor. I think if you observe and surround yourself with humor, that’s how you can get good at it. And if you don’t have humor in your life, you don’t know what it looks like. And so, that makes perfect sense.

Karyn Buxman: [00:48:42] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:48:42] So, I want to be respectful of your time because you’re just starting your day out there in beautiful San Diego. If somebody wants to learn more about neurohumor and how to integrate it into their business strategically, how can they contact you?

Karyn Buxman: [00:48:58] I love connecting with people on social media, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I think that in the show notes, you may be including some of this. I love connecting with professionals and high performers on LinkedIn and the other areas of social media. My website is karynbuxman.com. But for those who would like to see a sample, this is like, again, a sneak peek of the book that will be coming out with ForbesBooks Fall 2020, the book, Funny Means Money, Strategic Humor for Influence and World Domination.

Karyn Buxman: [00:49:33] We have a download of that available. And that also includes a further description of the humor quotient, along with a lot of the other tools and things that we slightly touched on or didn’t even begin to touch on. And that can be found at the web domain, humorforme, the word humor, H-U-M-O-R-F-O-R-M-E, humorforme.com. And I would love for them to download that sample book, get more information and then, take it from there.

Mike Blake: [00:50:07] Well, good. Thank you so much. That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Karyn Buxman so much for joining us and sharing her expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 45: Should I Increase My Prices? – An Interview with John Ray, Ray Business Advisors, LLC

January 2, 2020 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 45: Should I Increase My Prices? - An Interview with John Ray, Ray Business Advisors, LLC

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Decision Vision Episode 45: Should I Increase My Prices? – An Interview with John Ray, Ray Business Advisors, LLC

“Should I increase my prices?” If this question makes you pause, then this “Decision Vision” episode is for you. Price and value authority John Ray speaks with host Mike Blake on the importance of pricing in a business, how to negotiate prices, why hourly billing is the wrong way to price, and dealing with the “it’s too expensive” objection. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

John Ray, Ray Business Advisors, LLC

Because pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business, John Ray advises business owners on the “should I increase my prices” question, how to change their pricing, and moving to a value pricing model. His clients include attorneys, CPAs, consultants, other professional services firms, and technology companies. His blog, “Pricing for Profit,” regularly features examples and stories which help business owners in their own pricing journey. John is also a speaker on pricing and value at numerous chambers, business events and seminars. John also helps small to mid-sized companies achieve their profit and growth goals as an outside CFO.

John also owns and operates the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®. John is the host of “North Fulton Business Radio” and “Alpharetta Tech Talk.” He also plans, produces, and promotes radio show/podcasts for businesses and entrepreneurs.

John is extremely active in the North Fulton community. He is on the board of the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce (GNFCC), and serves in a variety of capacities there, including Chairman’s Circle, member of the Finance Committee, and Chair of the Awards Committee. John was named the 2018 Harry Rucker Jr. Volunteer of the Year by GNFCC.

For more information on John and his firm, find John’s LinkedIn profile here, go to raybusinessadvisors.com, or call John directly at (404) 287-2627.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:01] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions, brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:19] And welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:01:03] So, today, we’re going to talk about adjusting your prices. And this show is going to be published shortly after the secular New Year. So, for those of you who celebrate Christmas, I wish you a merry Christmas after the fact. And those of you who celebrate the Catholic Protestant New Year, Happy New Year to you. If you are a Kwanzaa celebrant, I will wish you a happy Kwanzaa and readers as well. And happy Hanukkah. This will probably come out, I guess, a few days after the last evening of Hanukkah. And if you’re an atheist and don’t believe in any of this, I’ll just wish that you have a nice day.

Mike Blake: [00:01:49] But anyway, we wanted to make sure that this particular program started off the new year because it’s a topic that I think most business people are thinking about revisiting. And if you’re not, you probably should. And that is the topic of pricing. Pricing, I think, is one of the hardest things to get right, particularly, but not limited to professional services. Figuring out the price that you need to charge your clients, your customers is a challenge.

Mike Blake: [00:02:26] And it’s a challenge as much as anything because the market is not very transparent. Our competitors, at least in professional services, we don’t know exactly what they are charging except on rare occasions. And even if you do, you’re not exactly sure necessarily how to equate the value propositions. You may or may not be sure how your client equates those value propositions. And because pricing is so difficult, it is important, I think, to revisit that on a regular basis at least every year. Because that way, if you’re getting it wrong, you only have to live with the mistake for about a year or so.

Mike Blake: [00:03:07] And on the other hand, if you’re getting it right, great, you revisit it, you think about it for five minutes, “I’m good”, and you move on. And pricing has some interesting psychology to it as well, because we are making a statement to the market that we believe our product and service is worth X. And when somebody decides not to buy, whether it is a product or service, they are telling us that they don’t agree that it’s worth X. And that requires some mental toughness in order to kind of sustain yourself through that.

Mike Blake: [00:03:44] So, it’s an important topic and we’re going to get into it today. I was thinking about relaying an anecdote, actually, of a pricing challenge, an event that I just have. Now, I’m going to wait until we do the interview, because I think it will flow better. So, let’s jump into it. Joining us today is John Ray, who is the owner of Ray Business Advisors. John helps small to mid-sized companies, including law firms and CPA firms achieve their profit and growth goals, and God knows we need help.

Mike Blake: [00:04:16] John’s clients come to him to reduce the stress and anxiety, which often comes with day-to-day management of a business. John works with businesses to enhance their pricing strategies and make more money. John also relieves the burden of accounting and bookkeeping and improves business processes. John holds a Bachelor of Arts from Vanderbilt University, a school with a terrific baseball program, an okay basketball program, and a football program that’s lousy and that’s to see what probably is good in almost any other conference.

John Ray: [00:04:46] The longest bear market in history.

Mike Blake: [00:04:47] The longest bear market in history. Although Tennessee maybe giving them a run for their money now, interestingly enough. With honors in English and economics, John is also a studio partner for Business RadioX, voice of the Fortune 500,000 and produces this Decision Vision podcast. He helps business owners plan, produce, and promote their own radio shows and podcasts. And I can tell you that we’ve been very happy with John’s service and the impact that we’ve had and have the opportunity to make in the marketplace and sharing our knowledge.

Mike Blake: [00:05:18] So, you know, as an aside, maybe we’ll probably do a show on this. Should I do a podcast? I can tell you that for us, it’s been a successful activity and one that’s been well worth doing, we’re going to continue doing it for a while. So, if you’re hoping we would go away, sorry. John is very active in the North Fulton community. He sits on the board of the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce and serves in a variety of capacities, including the chairman circle, member of the finance committee, and co-chair of the awards committee. John was named the 2018 Harry Rucker Junior Volunteer of the Year by the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce. John, welcome to the program.

John Ray: [00:05:55] Great to be here. Great to be on the other side of the mic.

Mike Blake: [00:05:58] Yeah. So, I know you’ve been chomping at the bit to sort of jump in here, but I have to ask you, do you know who Harry Rucker Junior is and why the award is named for him?

John Ray: [00:06:08] I have no clue.

Mike Blake: [00:06:09] Okay.

John Ray: [00:06:10] I Googled him, but I couldn’t find him.

Mike Blake: [00:06:12] That’s an honest man right there. So, I guess he was so generous, he wanted all of his volunteer activities to go anonymously. So, there you have it.

John Ray: [00:06:22] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:06:22] So, let’s jump into this. I mean, why are we talking about this? You make a living off of helping companies figure out their pricing and correct their pricing, why is it so hard?

John Ray: [00:06:33] Well, first of all, it’s hard, I think, a couple of things. Well, first of all, I don’t know that folks get much training, if any, in pricing. And that’s really odd because of what an impact pricing has on the bottom line. So, studies from folks like McKinsey show that pricing has the biggest variable impact on the bottom line of the business. This is an accounting fact. So, it’s more than cutting expenses, it’s more than let’s do a better job with marketing or converting leads or what have you. So, pricing’s got the biggest impact whatsoever.

John Ray: [00:07:12] Yet, business schools, the last that I saw shows that only less than 10 percent of business schools out there actually have a course, just one course on pricing. So, we put entrepreneurs out there into the marketplace, get them going, and they’re good at customer discovery and they’re good at a lot of things that have to do with the business and if they’re not, they can go easily get those skills outsourced to receive those skills, but pricing is always a problem, because of this lack of training and education that they have once they start a company.

Mike Blake: [00:07:55] Yeah. It’s interesting. You know, going back to my own MBA experience, which was a very long time ago, my diploma is on a cave painting in France someplace. But we learned almost nothing about price. And the only time I remember it ever really coming up in a rigorous way was we did a marketing simulation and we had to do pricing and that was fine as far as it went, right?

John Ray: [00:08:17] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:08:18] But there’s a limit to that. And I mean, I think you’re so right. In one respect, price is the easiest thing to change about your business, right? You can just decide to do it.

John Ray: [00:08:29] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:08:30] Now, you may not do it correctly, but you can’t do it almost instantaneously, right? Whether it’s just changing the number you put on your engagement letters or going off the price gun-

John Ray: [00:08:39] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:08:39] … it’s fairly easy to change. In your experience, when people or businesses mispriced their offerings, do they tend to overprice or underprice them?

John Ray: [00:08:50] Underprice. And I’m an example of this, I have to say. I mean, I got passionate about this because-

Mike Blake: [00:08:56] You’re gonna testify, aren’t you?

John Ray: [00:08:57] Yes, I am. I’m going to confess right here. If anybody’s listening, I’m confessing. So, no, I mean, it’s, you underprice what you do, particularly, as you said in the intro, in professional services. Because in professional services, we price our sales and there’s these voices that speak to us that sit on our shoulder and whisper in our ear that says, “Oh, that person’s not going to pay that much. You know, that company is talking to other people”, or what have you. And, you know, you need to knock a little bit off of that. That’s not going to work. And we talk ourselves out of the way we should price.

John Ray: [00:09:42] I think there’s a misconception also that if you lower your price, you’ll get more business. And actually, the opposite is sometimes true because price is an indication of quality. And I could relay a lot of anecdotes about how increasing prices actually increase sales, because suddenly, that the customer base, that product or service was aimed at, saw a lot more quality in what they were being presented than they had previously. So, price is a signal, and it’s actually a marketing signal.

Mike Blake: [00:10:23] There’s a great episode on Frasier, where Frasier and Niles were talking about, I think it was some sort of massage therapist or something. And they’re bragging, basically bragged in terms of the hourly rate, right?

John Ray: [00:10:42] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:10:43] So Niles was saying, you know, “My massage therapist is $500.” Frasier comes in and says, “Mine is a $1,000-an-hour.” And Niles goes, “She sounds fantastic.”

John Ray: [00:10:52] That’s right. Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:10:54] And, you know, I remember, earlier in my career, you know, one of the services we provide is something called a fairness opinion, which is an appraisal of a business where we have some fiduciary responsibility attached to it. So, there’s liability, so we tend to charge more. First one I ever did or maybe the second one I ever did but for a very friendly client. And I want to make sure I got the business, I underpriced it.

Mike Blake: [00:11:20] I got the business, but my client told me after the fact, he said, “Look, I appreciate the price, but I got to tell you, you almost didn’t get the work because your bid was so much lower than everybody else’s. We were concerned or the board was concerned that you actually knew what you were doing and you could put the requisite time and effort into this exercise. And I had to go to bat for you and say, ‘No. He knows what he’s doing in valuation, he just don’t know anything about pricing.'” I said, “Thanks.”

John Ray: [00:11:49] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:11:49] Right?

John Ray: [00:11:49] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:11:50] But, you know, we rarely get insight into that process. But I can tell you that, you know, A, I left about $35,000 on the table, no doubt, a minimum. And B, I nearly got nothing because I was so good at negotiating with myself-

John Ray: [00:12:05] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:12:05] … that I almost negotiated myself right out of that business.

John Ray: [00:12:09] And we’ve all looked at something and said, “That’s too good to be true”, in terms of the price. There’s something wrong. But we rarely take that sentiment and turn it around on our own product or service, right?

Mike Blake: [00:12:23] Right.

John Ray: [00:12:23] So, I think that’s what you’re getting at and it makes tons of sense. And I have never seen anybody. And if you’re out there, please write in and let us know and we’ll stand corrected. But I’ve never seen a business start out by overpricing.

Mike Blake: [00:12:44] We have no e-mail free to write in, by the way. We’re trying to fix that, but write in sort of metaphorically.

John Ray: [00:12:50] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:12:52] Or John will give you his e-mail at the end of this podcast, so you can write into there, I guess.

John Ray: [00:12:55] Yeah, there you go.

Mike Blake: [00:12:57] So, we’re over-thinking it, should pricing just be simple as, “Here’s what it costs me to deliver this product or service, here’s the amount of profit I want to make off of it”?

John Ray: [00:13:11] Well, certainly, your revenues have to exceed your costs. So, let’s just start with that. So let’s make the accountants happy and we’re going to agree to that. What I find, particularly in professional services, is that when a professional services provider focuses on pricing relative to the value that they deliver and just getting a piece of the value they deliver and that’s their equation, then they make a lot more money and they really don’t have to worry about their cost because they deliver so much value, generally.

John Ray: [00:13:54] So, sure, it’s important to have a profitable business, but that’s not really what we’re talking about here in getting our pricing right for professional services providers, it’s really about getting a piece of the value that you provide such that you can have a more focused business working with the best clients and not be so stressed, really running a business where you’ve got a bunch of clients where you really don’t want to service a bunch of them, right?

Mike Blake: [00:14:25] Yeah.

John Ray: [00:14:26] 20% or 30% of them, you really don’t want, but you’ve got them simply because you’re getting the revenue out of them. But they’re very low margin clients.

Mike Blake: [00:14:34] And that’s where you get back in the podcast number two, how should I fire my client?

John Ray: [00:14:38] That’s right. My favorite of the series, so far.

Mike Blake: [00:14:42] So, can different clients have different prices for roughly the same product or deliverable? And is that okay?

John Ray: [00:14:50] Absolutely. So, different clients have different values. And it’s okay to price based on those values. And it’s okay to offer options that clients can select, the options based on service levels, speed of delivery of the service, et cetera. In fact, I highly, highly recommend, in fact, demand of my clients that they offer options because that really helps ferret out what you’re getting at. So, I think the biggest mistake a lot of folks make is here’s my price, it’s kind of a fill or kill adversarial situation, right? Either you accept or you don’t. That’s the way the client looks at it, right? I think, Mike, what folks need to understand is that clients love options. They like to select. They like to see what your panoply of services are and come out with what they want.

Mike Blake: [00:15:59] And, you know, I think, perhaps, the best example, and I do this more and more, I offer choices as well, because I find that it enables clients to then choose what they want to do, right?

John Ray: [00:16:12] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:16:12] And when you’re with our clients, you make the relationship less adversarial. But, you know, that rule of three has been embraced for a long time by who I think is the king of price in the airline industry.

John Ray: [00:16:23] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:16:24] Right? I don’t think there’s an industry anywhere that is more sophisticated about pricing than the airline industry.

John Ray: [00:16:30] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:16:31] And what do they offer on most of their flights? Business class, first class-

John Ray: [00:16:36] Coach.

Mike Blake: [00:16:36] … economy/surf class-

John Ray: [00:16:40] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:16:40] … or steerage. And, you know, they let you choose, right? If you want to have the first class experience and the glass of champagne before the flight even leaves a gate, you pay that. And, you know, if you don’t mind taking an elbow to the back of your head every once in a while on a five-hour flight to the West Coast, you can do that, too, right? And so, you know, the funny thing is, in my experience—and I’m just going to say this sort of on the down low, because nobody’s listening except for the two of us, right?

John Ray: [00:17:11] That’s right.

Mike Blake: [00:17:12] Most often, the most profitable service I offer is the lowest priced one.

John Ray: [00:17:18] And that means you’ve got it correctly priced, right? It’s important to understand that different clients have different values and will value things differently across the spectrum. So, here’s an example outside of professional services, coffee. So, I’m a cheapskate on coffee. I mean, I may buy the dollar cup at racetrack, I’d prefer to wait until I get wherever I am and hope they’ll give me a cup of coffee for free, right?

John Ray: [00:17:46] Then, there’s my daughter at college who’s racking up $5 charges at Starbucks seemingly every half-hour on the half-hour, right? And then, the most expensive cup of coffee sold in the United States the last time I looked was $75 a cup. And it comes from some “exclusive farm in Panama, where they get one crop a year and they have a big party and a tasting at this coffee place in California that serves this coffee and they sell out”. So, I think that’s crazy. But there’s some people that look at coffee as fine wine. So-

Mike Blake: [00:18:28] Yeah.

John Ray: [00:18:28] Right? And that’s cool. That’s their value system. They may have other things that they look at and they’re cheapskates about, but we all have a panoply of values that we ascribe to a lot of different products and services. And so, as professional services providers offering our services, we have to recognize that and price accordingly.

Mike Blake: [00:18:51] So, everyone saw an article pops up, it’s probably click bait, but I’ll probably take that click bait, which is on why hourly pricing is the wrong price for professional services. Do you agree with that and why?

John Ray: [00:19:08] Absolutely. So, hourly pricing, well, it’s wrong on a number of levels. One is that it’s not really the end price. It’s not what a client pays. Clients are interested in what they’re getting in to pay. So, when you deliver an engagement letter and it says, “We’re gonna charge you, the partner time is to $250 or $300-an-hour and the associate time is $125”, or whatever, fill in the blanks, that’s not a price, that’s just half the equation.

John Ray: [00:19:44] It doesn’t tell me how many hours each of them were gonna put into that. It doesn’t tell me what happens when the project blows up and it takes longer than what we thought it was gonna take, which is almost inevitable because things never go the way they are supposed to go, right? So, it’s wrong from that point of view. It is a relic of the industrial age when industrial companies were trying to price get their professional services providers to deliver pricing that they could equate with their inputs, basically.

John Ray: [00:20:20] I mean, I could go in the whole history of it, but the point of it all is that it’s from another age and another time. And what clients are really paying for is not how much time you spend on a project, they’re paying for the grey matter between your ears and your experience and all the things that you’ve seen with other clients. That’s what they’re paying for. I mean, I had this experience with one of your colleagues where I brought a client in. And this was just an exploratory meeting on whether this client ought to sign up to be a Brady Ware client, right?

John Ray: [00:20:56] And in 15 minutes, they gave tremendous help and advice that I think pushed that engagement over in terms of getting that client to sign up. But the point is, is if that were a paying client at that time and that client had been paying by the hour, then the value-to-price ratio would be ridiculous. That client would have gotten much, much, much more value relative to the price they paid than they should have if you’re billing in 15-minute increments.

Mike Blake: [00:21:30] Yeah. And, you know, one of the fallacies then also is that you’re punished for being more efficient-

John Ray: [00:21:36] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:21:36] … which is not the way economics are supposed to work. And, you know, use the accounting example, you know, I don’t think any of our clients are paying for our time or they should not be.

John Ray: [00:21:48] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:21:49] Right? On our tax side, they’re paying for one of two things. One, I’m bulletproof against an IRS audit, right? Or two, I’m exercising my civil obligation to minimize what I pay to Uncle Sam as much as I possibly can.

John Ray: [00:22:12] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:22:12] Right?

John Ray: [00:22:13] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:22:13] When you’re a tax client, the client’s are one of those two things, right? They either are terrified of Uncle Sam, they want nothing to do with them or they want to go into combat with Uncle Sam.

John Ray: [00:22:23] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:22:24] Right? And man, if your client would like to go into combat with Uncle Sam, please call us, because, boy, we make a lot of money there.

John Ray: [00:22:31] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:22:33] And, you know, whether that takes one hour or fifteen hours, it’s the outcome you’re buying.

John Ray: [00:22:37] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:22:37] Right. Not the inputs.

John Ray: [00:22:41] Not the inputs.

Mike Blake: [00:22:41] Who cares? And also, it has to sort of go both ways, right?

John Ray: [00:22:49] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:22:51] The client’s not going to let you suddenly charge more if something that was supposed to take you 10 hours, you know, takes you 100.

John Ray: [00:22:58] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:22:58] First of all, well, that’s not my problem if you couldn’t get your act together, right?

John Ray: [00:23:01] Right. Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:23:02] So, by definition, you know, for the most part, some industries are not like this, but many industries, that hourly notion is a one-way street.

John Ray: [00:23:14] Yeah. And, you know, I think technology is such, artificial intelligence is such that I saw one study that this study said was, “In five years, 99% of all bookkeeper jobs would be eliminated.” Then, I think it was the same percentage for tax-prepared jobs. Well, I don’t know that that’s true, but directionally, it’s probably correct because of technology.

Mike Blake: [00:23:39] Absolutely.

John Ray: [00:23:40] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:23:40] I mean, we don’t have people cranking out tax returns by hand and-

John Ray: [00:23:44] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:23:44] … with slide rules and so forth.

John Ray: [00:23:47] Yeah. And so, as technology and particularly, artificial intelligence, links between institutions get more robust, I could foresee a time when tax returns are real time. You can see your tax return in real time as the year goes on, right?

Mike Blake: [00:24:02] Yeah.

John Ray: [00:24:02] And so, the value of a tax preparer, let’s say, comes from the advice they give around that return, not for the preparation of the return. And so, as you say, if you’re pricing by the hour and based solely on preparation of return, your business is headed straight down over the next few years.

Mike Blake: [00:24:25] Yeah.

John Ray: [00:24:25] Period. The pig is in the python, shall we say.

Mike Blake: [00:24:30] Yeah. So, how do you help your clients respond when they have their own customer, client or prospect that pushes back on price? You know, you’re charging me too much, I don’t want to pay that. What are some of the approaches that you advocate to engage in that conversation?

John Ray: [00:24:50] What I tell folks is that if you get that response to a proposal, typically, you’ve not had a great value conversation, because the client’s comparing that price or those prices relative to something other than the value that you’re providing. So, you’ve not done a really good job at marketing your value to that client or getting that client to understand that value. And you don’t have a good sense of where their values are.

John Ray: [00:25:23] And again, you know, it’s kind of interesting. I’ll give you an example of this. I had a client who I was having an exploratory meeting with and, you know, it was going well and he was almost downplaying what he really needed until his wife came in the room. And she was talking about how screwed up he was and how they needed to get their financial act together and their books were a mess and she was sick of it.

John Ray: [00:25:52] And it occurred to me at that point that this man’s value was getting his wife off his back. That had nothing to do with the services that I may have been providing, really, in terms of the way he looked at value. So, the point is, if I had never had an in-depth discovery session with him, I wouldn’t have understood that value and I might have priced my services a lot differently and he might have given me the “it’s too expensive” response, right?

John Ray: [00:26:27] So, you know, I think it’s really important to understand client value. And then, the other thing I tell folks is when a client says it’s too expensive, I say, you know, “Too expensive relative to what? Relative to doing nothing?” Meaning is, what’s the cost of doing nothing for this problem that you were sitting here talking about? Is it too expensive relative to you doing it yourself? See, when you ask those kind of questions back, then you get to the root of where the value really is in that client’s head.

Mike Blake: [00:27:03] So, you know, a lot of it, it sounds like is doing your homework upfront and then, if you get that push back, it means you have more homework that you have to do.

John Ray: [00:27:10] Absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:27:12] And, you know, that makes sense to me. And, you know, in every case, this goes back to the right client provider match, right? And in some cases, you know, it’s also about letting clients sort of select themselves out, right?

John Ray: [00:27:29] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:27:32] You know, I know you and I have a slightly different viewpoint on this, so I’m going to raise it because I think it will provoke an interesting sidebar here, you know, when a client calls me and they say, “Hey, you know, I’ve got this valuation project, you know, here are the basic parameters, what do you think it will cost?” I will tell them because I want them to then self-select, right?

John Ray: [00:27:57] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:27:57] In my view, if they have a heart attack over that price, right? Then, there’s no amount of value exploring I can do that’s likely going to bridge that gap, right? And it just saves both of our time. I know you take a different view on that. So, why don’t you explain your view, how you respond to that discussion or what?

John Ray: [00:28:19] I do take a different view on that. And here’s the issue, I’ll look at it and I say to a client, “Look, I’m not sure we’re a great fit, because what I’m sensing here is that you’re looking for a transaction because that’s your first question is what the price is. And I’m interested in relationships, I mean, you know, the way my practice is based. So, we’re probably not a good fit. Let me recommend some folks that might be better fits for you that you ought to have a conversation with.”.

John Ray: [00:28:55] And usually, what happens is, first of all, people are taken aback. Sometimes, they’re insulted. And I tell them I don’t mean to insult them. It’s just, you know, we have different ways of looking at a potential engagement. And I’m not offended when they start with that question. As a matter of fact, I’m happy because they’ve told me that they’re very price-sensitive and it’s probably a client I don’t want.

Mike Blake: [00:29:21] Yeah, absolutely.

John Ray: [00:29:21] Right? So, they’ve done me a favor. So, that’s the way I typically respond. Now, what I would say to you is if you’re going to respond to a price, I think the first price you should name is the absolute highest price you can come up with. So, I don’t know what your engagements cost, but let’s just make this up, okay? So, let’s say the biggest engagement you could ever imagine having is, you know, $150,000. What the way I would respond is, you know, “Hey, our engagements could range from $300,000 to $500,000.” Do you see what I just did?

Mike Blake: [00:30:04] Right.

John Ray: [00:30:04] Right? “On down. So, tell me what what we’re talking about and then, I can quote you a more accurate figure.” And so, then it adjust that conversation back around to where it needs to be.

Mike Blake: [00:30:19] So, let’s talk a little bit then about negotiating price. How do you do that, right? You can’t do business without some sort of negotiation. And, you know, people will haggle over. We’ll haggle over prices for, you know, where they can for things like cars and professional services. What are some tips you can offer to people that maybe aren’t all that comfortable haggling over price?

John Ray: [00:30:49] So, a couple things, I really think it’s important, this is where options come in. If you offer folks options, the good, better, best model, then it really gets into negotiating around service levels, or it should, not price. So, that’s what I highly recommend, is take your services and break them down into a good, better, best, and price around that. And then, the negotiation is about how we’re going to engage. It’s not, first of all, yes or no. And it should not be around price. The levels of negotiation should be what services we’re going to include or take out, depending on which option, either good, better, or best you’re interested in.

Mike Blake: [00:31:48] Well, actually, let me touch on one thing here, because one implicit assumption we’ve had about this entire discussion is that you, as a provider or as a producer, don’t want to compete on price.

John Ray: [00:32:05] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:32:05] But there are some businesses in which the thesis of competing on price is exactly your value proposition, right? And there’s nothing wrong with that as long as that’s sort of the strategy that you’re embarking on and you drive your business in that direction, right?

John Ray: [00:32:21] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:32:22] You know, just as you mentioned, you’ll tell a prospect that leads off with price that, you know, here, maybe providers that are a better fit because price is sort of the start of their value proposition. I have those in my world as well.

John Ray: [00:32:34] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:32:37] So, there’s nothing wrong with that, where you can run askew from that as if you don’t want price to be the lead of your value proposition. And then, you get sucked into the trap of the next thing you know, you’re negotiating on price and not on value.

John Ray: [00:32:51] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:32:53] So, I just had this happen. I posted this on my LinkedIn profile last week and actually gets a post that got me the most engaged in the whole year. So, people felt my pain. And I basically said, “I’m never going to do this again”, which means I’ll probably screw it up in a couple of months. But-

John Ray: [00:33:11] You’re going to tell the story, right?

Mike Blake: [00:33:12] And I’m going to tell the story.

John Ray: [00:33:13] Okay. Good. Good.

Mike Blake: [00:33:13] And the story is that I was asked to bid on a project where I had a relationship with the company, but not the executives, they had some turnover. But we’ve done some work with them before. So, what we were going to do was effectively an update, not a de novo valuation exercise. And they submit a competitive bid, which is fine again, because I didn’t have a relationship with the people, just the company. So, it’s weird. There is institutional relationship, but not personal relationships.

John Ray: [00:33:43] And, you know, they came back to me and they said, “Look, you know, love to work with you, but, you know, this other provider came in a little bit lower, will you match that? You know, if you’ll match that, we’ll work with you.” And I wrestled with that. I slept on it overnight. I’d tell myself, “Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it.” I’m like, “Oh, but the work is going to be fairly easy to do and I hate to lose a client”, right?

John Ray: [00:34:10] Sure.

Mike Blake: [00:34:10] Different from a new client because to me, losing a client is more painful than not getting when you could have.

John Ray: [00:34:16] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:34:17] I think for me, psychologically, that was part of it.

John Ray: [00:34:20] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:34:22] The word is ego. And against my better judgment, I said, “You know what, yeah, I’ll do that.” But I did one thing right, which is I made them give me back something for the price. I didn’t just match it because I think when somebody says, “Can you do better?” and you just match and don’t give up anything, you’re telegraphing to the world that you’re trying to rip them off, basically, right?

John Ray: [00:34:42] Yeah. Yeah. I couldn’t agree more.

Mike Blake: [00:34:43] Right?

John Ray: [00:34:43] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:34:45] But if I can get something back from them, right? Then, it’s a more empowered discussion. I said, you know, “As long as we can do something where I get paid more if the work gets more complicated and you’ll agree to a multi-year contract with us, then I’ll go ahead and do it.” And two days later, they came back to me by email and said, you know, “Another provider came in, they matched your price and they’re not going to charge more even if the work gets more complex.” And for a second, I was a little upset because I did what they said and they didn’t. But after I took a deep breath, I wrote them an email message, “You know what, I think you found the right match for you. All the best.”

John Ray: [00:35:29] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:35:30] And, you know, as I thought about that, it occurred to me that they did me an enormous favor.

John Ray: [00:35:37] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:35:37] Because that was not going to be the last time that happened between me and them.

John Ray: [00:35:42] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:35:43] And they were going to find some small thing, a spelling error inside of a footnote some place that to them was going to constitute a material error and find a way to break the contract anyway.

John Ray: [00:35:56] Right. Right.

Mike Blake: [00:35:57] And, you know, what they also told me is that their time was not viable. Because of the fact we’ve done work with them before, they’ve been working out to tell us about how their business worked and we had models built, they’re going to have to do that with a new provider. And it is frightening to work with a client whose time is not viable to them.

John Ray: [00:36:18] Oh, yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:36:18] Because they’re going to think my time is not viable.

John Ray: [00:36:21] Oh, exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:36:21] So, I posted it on my LinkedIn that I didn’t get burnt, I got singed because I dropped a few more hours into the proposal process than I should have. But it was actually a good ending, in that, I didn’t get the work and one of my competitors did.

John Ray: [00:36:37] And that time you put into it was tuition.

Mike Blake: [00:36:41] That’s right.

John Ray: [00:36:42] Right?

Mike Blake: [00:36:42] That’s exactly right.

John Ray: [00:36:42] That will help you next time.

Mike Blake: [00:36:44] That’s exactly right.

John Ray: [00:36:45] But what happened there is if you hadn’t had that conversation, right? If you hadn’t had that back and forth, then that client would not have revealed themselves. And it’s really important to get clients to reveal themselves to you.

Mike Blake: [00:36:59] Right.

John Ray: [00:36:59] Right? So that you understand what you’re dealing with. And if you’re okay having, you know, a business where, you know, you’re dealing with misers, because that’s what I call those folks—and by the way, just as an aside, statistically, for goods and services, studies show there’s about 25% to 30% of buyers are misers that they don’t want to pay. And so, it’s really important to understand them. So, because you had that interaction with them, because you had that back and forth, you got a real good picture on a client you really didn’t want at the end of the day. And all you really had to do was deal with, with your own psychology of saying, “Hey, it’s okay to let that one go. I’m better off.”

Mike Blake: [00:37:46] Yeah, that’s exactly right.

John Ray: [00:37:47] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:37:48] And I made it public for two reasons, number one, because I thought it was instructive. And number two, I was inviting mockery and the trolls of the internet so that I would be emotionally battered and bruised so much that I’d never, ever, ever do it again.

John Ray: [00:38:05] So, the bad memory of that would keep you from doing that ever again.

Mike Blake: [00:38:09] It was-

John Ray: [00:38:11] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:38:11] … intentional PTSD.

John Ray: [00:38:13] I love it.

Mike Blake: [00:38:13] Because I think in that case, it serves a process. So-

John Ray: [00:38:16] And you got all this love from people that have this problem, right? See, that’s what’s so revealing.

Mike Blake: [00:38:21] That’s right.

John Ray: [00:38:22] Yeah. I mean, that’s what’s so revealing to me about that story. One of the things about that story is people come back and say, “Hey, I’ve got that same problem.”

Mike Blake: [00:38:30] Yeah. That’s right. And you and I are both business advisors and, you know, one of the things, I think, a good business adviser does is understand that they make mistakes, too.

John Ray: [00:38:41] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:38:41] And that they don’t know everything.

John Ray: [00:38:43] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:38:44] Because really, who wants to be around a know-it-all all the time, right?

John Ray: [00:38:49] Right. Particularly, when you know they don’t know it all, right?

Mike Blake: [00:38:51] Yeah, that’s right. It’s one thing if you can back it up.

John Ray: [00:38:54] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:38:55] John, we’re running out of time here, but thanks so much for coming on, especially, we’re recording this Christmas Eve here. John, how can people reach out to you if they want to learn more about pricing and get some advice on pricing in the new year?

John Ray: [00:39:08] yourpriceistoolow.com. How about that?

Mike Blake: [00:39:12] I love that.

John Ray: [00:39:13] I’d just put it out there.

Mike Blake: [00:39:15] Okay.

John Ray: [00:39:15] And if you want to go the old-fashioned way, raybusinessadvisors.com will get you to the same place and/or you can call me, 404-287-2627, or I put that challenge out there about folks that feel like they’ve priced adequately from the very beginning, so if you want to email me, let me know about you, we’ll do a podcast with you, maybe.

Mike Blake: [00:39:39] Absolutely. We’ll read your story online as you gloat to the rest of the internet.

John Ray: [00:39:43] That’s right. But jray@raybusinessadvisors.com.

Mike Blake: [00:39:47] So, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank John Ray so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcasts aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 44: Should I Run for Political Office? – An Interview with Rep. Dar’shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives, and Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock

December 19, 2019 by John Ray

Decision Vision

Decision Vision Episode 44: Should I Run for Political Office? - An Interview with Rep. Dar'shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives, and Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock

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Decision Vision Episode 44: Should I Run for Political Office? – An Interview with Rep. Dar’shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives, and Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock

More business owners than ever are running for political office. What should I consider in making this decision? How will holding political office affect my business? On this edition of “Decision Vision,” host Mike Blake speaks with business Rep. Dar’shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives, and Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock on these questions and much more. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Rep. Dar’shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives

Dar’shun Kendrick was born and raised in Decatur, Georgia. She has a dual degree in political science and communications from Oglethorpe University, a law degree from the University of Georgia and a Master in Business Administration from Kennesaw State. Both of her parents are entrepreneurs so she grew up understanding the unique challenges of business owners, particularly business owners of color.

That’s why since 2010, Dar’shun has dedicated her capital compliance law firm to making sure everyone has access to legal services and tools to raise capital for their business in a way that makes sense for every size business and every investor. Her passion and focus have specifically been on making sure that minorities and women have access to the tools and resources they need to reach their capital raising goals. To date, she has helped companies raise over half a billion ($500MM) in investment funds. In 2019, she became a Series 65 license holder (investment adviser representative) with the ability to provide strategic investment advice to her corporate clients as a part of her services.

Dar’shun is also an innovator and community activist. She was featured in the Huffington Post as 1 of 25 people positioned to Scale Atlanta’s Growing Inclusive Technology Start Up Ecosystem for Black Americans and Beyond. In 2017, she was elected to the Technology Association of Georgia’s (TAG) Corporate Development Board and in 2018 elected to the TAG Diversity Board. She is also a past contributor to Black Enterprise Magazine focusing on economic justice issues. In 2017, she founded Georgia’s 1st ever Georgia Blacks in Tech Policy Conference & Follow Up “Day of Action” with the focus on advocating for inclusive tech policy throughout the state. This event continues on today as the “Tech for All” Policy Conference.

Dar’shun’s service extends beyond her capital compliance firm. Since the age of 27, she has also served as a member of the Georgia House of Representatives. She represents over 54,000 Georgians in DeKalb and Gwinnett counties. She also founded Georgia’s first Technology, Innovation & Entrepreneurship Caucus which is a bipartisan caucus of Georgia legislators and stakeholders committed to the mission of supporting entrepreneurs within the state. She currently serves as the Chief Deputy Whip of the House Democratic Caucus and a ranking member of the Small Business & Jobs Creation committee.

Awards (last 3 awards awarded)- She was awarded the Urban League of Greater Atlanta Young Leader Award (2019) and named as an awardee for the Atlanta Business Chronicle’s “40 under 40” awards (2019) and nominated for 2 NAACP awards for criminal justice reform and her business (2017 and 2019).

Dar’shun is a community activist, public speaker & teacher, elected official, private securities attorney, and a proud member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. She currently resides in Lithonia, Georgia.

Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock

Colin Ake was elected to Woodstock City Council in 2017. Prior to announcing his run for City Council, Colin served as the Mayor’s appointee on the Woodstock Planning and Zoning Commission for a year and a half. While on the Planning Commission, he was elected Vice-Chair by his peers. Colin served as the Chair of the Greenprints Alliance Board of Directors in 2016 and 2017, and as the Vice-Chair in 2015. He was invited to represent Greenprints Alliance on the Woodstock Police Department’s Body-Worn-Camera Working Group. Colin has provided significant input to the Cherokee Office of Economic Development and Woodstock Office of Economic Development on Fresh Start Cherokee and The Circuit as they work to incorporate startups into their economic development plans.

Professionally, Colin is employed by Georgia Tech’s VentureLab, where he works with commercialization projects. He teaches entrepreneurship to commercialization teams through the NSF I-Corps Program, where he is a Regional Lead Instructor. He leads programs across the southeast and assists in the administration of the I-Corps South grant at Georgia Tech. Colin has taught at Georgia Tech’s Scheller College of Business and is a member of the Georgia Tech Faculty Senate. He also represented Georgia Tech on the State Senate’s Camden County Spaceport Study Committee, where he studied the opportunities and challenges facing the potential spaceport on the Georgia coast.

Prior to joining Georgia Tech, Colin spent four years rebuilding an aerospace company focused on reusable launch operations and lunar/planetary lander technology development. He previously worked at the Georgia Tech Research Institute and at an early-stage technology startup for two years. Colin holds a Bachelor of Science in Management and a MBA from Georgia Tech.

Colin grew up a mile from Woodstock and moved back to the city with his wife Nikki to start their family. Colin, Nikki, and children (Owen & Lealynn) are members at Sojourn Community Church in Woodstock, where Nikki is an active member of the finance committee, and Colin plays drums and works on long-term planning projects.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Podcast Series

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Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:09] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:28] And welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand where you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:48] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia, which is where we’re recording today. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe in your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:11] So, today, we’re going to talk about whether you as a business owner executive should run for political office. And regardless, I think, of where you are in the political spectrum, if you are at any place, I’m not sure where I am anymore, I think that’s an increasingly important topic. I think we’re seeing more people with a business background seeking office at all levels. And indeed, like them or love them, love them or not like them, the current President of the United States does come from a business background. And indeed, he ran on his business background as a reason why that is the case he made that he would be a good president of the United States. And that’s something that he invokes fairly regularly.

Mike Blake: [00:02:02] And it’s not just he that’s doing that. Mike Bloomberg has recently jumped into the race. There’s discussion now about, you know, whether billionaires can buy their way to the presidency. And again, we’re not going to talk about that particular topic, but I think there’s an increasingly blurred line now between politics and business. And maybe there’s always been a blurred line and depending, again, where you sit, maybe it’s an uncomfortably blurred line. But the fact of the matter is, I think, that the people who did not think that they had the stuff or the wherewithal, even the desire to run for political office and just sort of put themselves in the seat of being a business person, now, are thinking of themselves potentially in a dual role or maybe it’s even something they do with either a subsequent or intervening chapter in their lives.

Mike Blake: [00:02:56] And, you know, the recent statistics on this podcast still are flooring to me. We’re pushing about three-and-a-half million downloads, I understand, since February. Chances are good at least one of you has thought about running for political office. So, at least, this could be interesting to one of you out there. But I think it will be interesting to more on that. And we actually have a director at Brady Ware & Company that was elected mayor for one of the towns, I believe, outlying Dayton. He took over as mayor when the previous mayor resigned. And then, ran and was elected in his own right. So, we’re even seeing that inside our own company.

Mike Blake: [00:03:35] So, as you know, when you listen to this podcast, we’re bringing in people who actually know what they’re talking about, because I certainly don’t. And coming in to talk about this topic today are two people who are balancing public service and their own careers. And so, joining us today is Dar’shun Kendrick, a five-term member of the 93rd and/or 94th Districts of Georgia in the Georgia House of Representatives as the chief deputy whip. And I say the 93rd/94th, because I think it was a 94th District for her first term. And then, thanks to redistricting, I think it then became the 93rd. But for those who aren’t in Georgia, our assembly is made up of 180 members, a fairly large body, partially because we just have, I think, more counties than anybody in the country.

Mike Blake: [00:04:25] We’re not serving her constituents in this capacity. Dar’shun is a capitol compliance lawyer dedicated to guiding Black and female founders in the capitol, raising investing process. She provides these services through her company, the Kendrick Advisory, an advocacy group. She’s an arbitrator of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority or FINRA. I did not know that before I was researching this podcast and she holds a bachelor of arts from Oglethorpe University, I live about a-mile-and-a-half from there, holds an MBA from Kennesaw State University and a law degree from the University of Georgia.

Mike Blake: [00:04:56] And she’s joining us by phone today. So, you may hear some noise in the background. With those of you who are not from Georgia, we have a unique driving environment here. And one of the unique features of the driving environment is that rain, particularly cold rain, will turn the streets of the greater Atlanta metropolitan area into an episode of Ice Road Truckers, basically. So, Dar’shun, please drive carefully as you’re on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:05:25] Yeah. Thanks so much. And I’m sorry I couldn’t be in the office or in the studio today. But as you know, we are getting ready for session. So, we’re trying to make do with the 24 hours we get.

Mike Blake: [00:05:37] Yeah. Well, if you guys can vote a 26-hour day, I’d really appreciate that.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:05:42] Yeah. So would I. I’ll work on that.

Mike Blake: [00:05:45] Also, joining us today is Colin Ake. Colin was elected city councilman in 2018 for the City of Woodstock, Georgia, a municipality of southern Cherokee County, the population of just over 30,000. And Woodstock is, oh, I’m going to say about 20 miles north and west of downtown city of Atlanta, maybe a little bit farther than that. Prior to serving in that role, Colin was a—or give me some help here, was it a or the planning and zoning commissioner for the City of Woodstock.

Colin Ake: [00:06:13] I was one of seven.

Mike Blake: [00:06:15] Okay. One of seven. So, a planning and zoning commissioner. When not serving his constituents, Colin is a principal at Georgia Tech VentureLab, where he serves as an instructor on innovation and entrepreneurship. Colin actively works with entrepreneurs and researchers to commercialize research, identify, and secure grant funding, mentor startups, and modify and implement Georgia Tech’s evidence-based entrepreneurship curricula. This includes training and evaluating other instructors in the customer development methodology employed by the I-Corp program and across Georgia Tech.

Colin Ake: [00:06:44] At some point, I’d have you back to talk about because that’s an interesting program. It’s one that I think is unique. Colin holds his bachelor degree in management and his MBA from Georgia Tech. So, regardless of any kind of political discussion here, we have somebody from the University of Georgia and somebody from Georgia Tech, and that’s probably going to create more tension on this program than anything. And if you are from Alabama or Auburn or Florida, Florida State, you know exactly what I’m talking about. Colin, welcome to the program.

Colin Ake: [00:07:10] Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me.

Mike Blake: [00:07:12] And interestingly, you’re wearing a shirt today that’s yellow with black stitching on that. Is that something that you arranged or?

Colin Ake: [00:07:20] Not specifically because of where Dar’shun went to get her law degree, but I did pick it out.

Mike Blake: [00:07:29] All right. So, let’s jump into it, because we got a ton to cover here. So, Dar’shun, let me let you go first. Ten years ago, you began to serve in your capacity in the Georgia legislature. What motivated you to do that?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:07:49] Well, here, I have a very unique and interesting story. So, I essentially was at the right place at the right time or the right place at the wrong time, depending on which day of the week it is. I was a 27-year old who had just started practicing law for small business litigation firm downtown. And the law firm imploded one summer. And so, they let everybody go. And so, I had started my MBA program. And I had to start my own law firm.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:08:28] So, I actually happened to be down as the capitol because two hours before I got down there to meet with our rep on some sort of marketing for my new firm, the person in my seat decided to run for governor. And so, they were looking for people. And I just so happened to be at the capitol meeting on an unrelated matter. I didn’t even know they would qualify me. And so, the person I was meeting with, I had known since I was a teenager because I worked at the capitol and they asked me what district I was in.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:09:04] And I said, House District 94, which is 94 at the time. And he said, “Well, we need you to run for office.” And of course, I thought he was crazy because I was starting the MBA program and a new law firm. But the long story short is I ended up qualifying 30 minutes before the qualifying ended. So, I actually went from a private citizen to a full-blown candidate unexpectedly overnight. So, I wish I had a better inspirational story about how I worked hard enough and I planned to be in this position, but that is the true story of how it happened.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:09:43] But I ultimately decided to say yes because I knew I eventually wanted to work on state house. I just thought it would be kind of be, you know, sort of when I had a more stable career, when I was older, maybe with a family. But I decided to say yes, because, you know, I grew up in DeKalb County and I represent Dekalb County. I knew that I was more qualified than the people that were running. I already had tremendous support before I even signed the qualification document, so I knew that I could do it. And even though it came unexpectedly and it came fast, I have had a pleasure of serving 54,000 Georgians ever since.

Mike Blake: [00:10:29] Okay. And I have a feeling there are probably other stories that are kind of like that. But Colin, how about you? What’s your story? Did you also sort of fall into public service that way or is that the more of a longer term ambition of yours?

Colin Ake: [00:10:44] No, I kind of fell into it. I grew up in Woodstock. And Woodstock has changed a lot. It has grown massively in the last couple of decades and really become a place that is much different than where I grew up. My wife and I moved back to Woodstock in 2013. And I got involved in a local nonprofit focused on building a trail system just because I want to be able to raise a family somewhere over there. It was a good outdoor recreation opportunity. And from there, I got asked one day to serve on the Planning and Zoning Commission, which was not on my radar, not something I’d been to, not something I was involved in.

Mike Blake: [00:11:26] Did you know anything about planning and zoning?

Colin Ake: [00:11:27] I did not know anything about planning and zoning. But I love learning new things. And so, I dove in and had a lot of fun over the course of about a-year-and-a-half. Planning and zoning in the State of Georgia, most bodies are recommending bodies. In other words, they’re appointed by mayor and city council, but they recommend decisions. And then, the mayor and city council make the final decision. And after about a-year-and-a-half of seeing recommendations go one way or the other and the city council listened to some of them and not listened to others, I decided, well, it might be time to make this vote count if I’m spending the time on it.

Mike Blake: [00:12:05] Like the Christmas song goes, if you’re so smart, you rig up the lights, right?

Colin Ake: [00:12:09] Something like that.

Mike Blake: [00:12:10] So, let’s go into that then. Your first election, talk about running in your first election was like. You, yeah.

Colin Ake: [00:12:21] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:12:22] Colin.

Colin Ake: [00:12:22] So, my first election was an experience. So, I ran against an incumbent that was first elected and hadn’t been in office continuously, but was first elected in the year 1990.

Mike Blake: [00:12:35] Wow.

Colin Ake: [00:12:36] So, 2017, I’m running against a guy who has been in office in and out a couple of times, but for for a while. Nice guy. But I wanted a shot. So, I qualified and started running. Somebody else also qualified. So, I had a three-way race and that was quite the experience. It’s a lot of door-knock and it’s a lot of talking to people. It’s a lot of time. It is a great experience. You know, I teach this entrepreneurship stuff at Georgia Tech, right? We teach researchers to go talk to customers and actually understand the people. I mean, knocking on doors is all that, right?

Mike Blake: [00:13:12] Yeah.

Colin Ake: [00:13:12] It is essentially sitting there and that-

Mike Blake: [00:13:13] I hadn’t thought about that. That’s right.

Colin Ake: [00:13:15] … you are learning about your constituents or potential constituents at this point. And what do they care about? Why do they care about those things? And it’s a lot of fun, but it’s a lot of work. You wear through some shoes and it was a good time. I was fortunate enough to avoid a runoff. I won outright. I was a little surprised. You know, I know a lot of people do these victory parties, I didn’t do any of that. I was ready to find out who I was going to be against in the runoff. And I had about four people at my house. And it turned out okay.

Mike Blake: [00:13:51] Well, knowing you, that sounds about right though. You’re kind of a low-key guy, so I don’t see you as a victory lap guy. Dar’shun, how about you? I mean, I know you, sort of, were an overnight qualification story, but what was that first election like? Were you opposed?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:14:09] I was. So, I had four other people was—and my district is largely democratic. So, obviously—general. But I did have four other people in the primary. It is somebody who is very active in the Democratic Party. Somebody who had ran for this three times before. And there’s somebody who was very, very active that have supporters in Rockdale. But I’m just—so, I was the youngest. And so, every time the media printed something, they just ask it without at least letting you know for whatever reason.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:14:53] But I, you know, knocked on doors. I have been involved in politics since I was 18. So, we have to like run a campaign. And so, I had a number of primary voters who were at least three times. And that’s when the primary—fly. It wasn’t in vain like it is now. So, it was a long, hot summer, a very long, hot summer. And I, you know, didn’t quite know how I was able to—start a law firm while knocking on doors. That still felt quite interesting in how I did it—business.

Mike Blake: [00:15:38] Well, let’s, in fact, talk about that, because, you know, one of the things that draws me to this conversation is, you know, where does running for office intersect with business, right? And both of you, in your case, you have a business and Colin has, you know, a career and neither of your post, they’re not designed to have you be a career politician in that respect. But I’m curious, as you are knocking on doors, do you think that that actually helped you kind of understand your market better, Dar’shun?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:16:20] You know, I think it helped me not only to understand my market better, but just to broaden my understanding of just opinions and the issues facing Georgia in general. When I first ran for office, I was—at Rockdale County. And Rockdale County is that county who have very, very active supporters of commerce. And so, you know, on the campaign, so obviously, I was engaged with those two views. But it helped me that I did have a business background to sort of, I think, connect with people on the campaign trail at these retail or business centers.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:17:06] And I am accused more than I would like about being one of the more full-business Democrats. But I think it served me well, because I am able to understand sort of the base of my calling, which is labor and balancing with the people that I represent, which are obviously founders of this. So, I definitely learned a lot about that market, but around Georgia issues as well. It was a really great opportunity to just meet people and hear different views. I really enjoyed the campaign. I know it’s hard, but I learned a lot of their stories.

Mike Blake: [00:17:47] So, Colin, my next questions for you is, you know, as you are preparing to run, have you had professional mentors or advisors in your life that maybe, you know, have helped you along the way to get to where you’ve been professionally? Did you also rely on them as you contemplated this political step? And if so, were they helpful? If not, then where did you kind of find that expertise?

Colin Ake: [00:18:11] Yeah, it’s a great question. So, you know, I tend to be the student of, you know, whatever world I’m going into. I worked with a bunch of different entrepreneurs from a bunch of different backgrounds and bunch different industries, right? And so, that’s taught me to take advice from the people who have experienced something before and go find people that can share something with me that, you know, is based off that experience. I certainly had conversations with business mentors or people that I worked with previously. I’m about running for office. I got encouragement to do so.

Colin Ake: [00:18:45] But of course, you know, if you’ve not run a campaign, you generally go well. But I’ve never run a campaign and that’s kind of, you know, where that stops. I had some help from some friends that had experienced parsing data and find someone that they can parse data well. And go grab some voter data and, you know, data’s data. You got to know what you’re looking for, but once you know what you’re looking for, it’s fairly easy to pull together a strategy.

Mike Blake: [00:19:13] Indeed, I’ve heard that superior command of data was a big factor in enabling the president to win in 2016, right? It wasn’t whether he’s a better candidate or not, but this was a lot of analysis. And I think there’s some truth to this that he and his team just paid more attention and just did better with parsing data.

Colin Ake: [00:19:36] My experience has been that the data certainly gives you an edge. And it helps inform whatever strategy you’re developing as a team. Dramatically different to run for president than it is to run for city council for the City of Woodstock.

Mike Blake: [00:19:49] Sure.

Colin Ake: [00:19:51] For the small business owners that are out there that are thinking about getting involved in local government, at either the local or the county or the state level, it’s really easy to not even be—you know, you don’t have to be a presidential level data parser to make a difference in a small race.

Mike Blake: [00:20:12] Yeah. And in fact, interestingly enough, there is one of these rare cases where a meaningful office was won by one vote, a Boston city council office, after their fourth recount was just decided by one vote with over 70,000 thousand votes involved. So-

Colin Ake: [00:20:30] That’s fairly narrow.

Mike Blake: [00:20:31] There’s probably going to be a lawsuit, too. One vote, you know, you got to believe that’s gonna be challenged, I would think. But still-

Colin Ake: [00:20:39] Hanging chad somewhere.

Mike Blake: [00:20:40] Yes. So, it does happen. So, Dar’shun, how about you? I suspect, but you tell me. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. What about your mentors and advisors? Have they been the same for you along the way in business as in politics or have you found that they’ve been different?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:21:01] So, my sort of mentors in business have always been my parents. So, I grew up in an entrepreneurial household. So, I love business owners, but typically, minority female founders and Black-owned founders share sort of the challenges that they went through. So, my parents have kind of taught me a lot about business. And, you know, I have people that I sort of look up to. I wouldn’t say that I have a formal mentorship with anyone. And that’s probably because, believe it or not, I’m—about it. So, you know, I just had not gotten opportunity to ask somebody to do that mentorship. But I am because one of the things that I added to my success and firm is I just recently got a series of job life investment-

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:22:05] So, I am intentional about how people have been successful in the state for a very, very long time with that aspect of it. But political-wise, you know, as a politician, I value amongst anything else—good and anything like that is people who are persistent in their belief and that is true. So, one of the reasons that one of my best friends is a partner is because we are very, very truthful with one another. And because above all else, we are very persistent in our belief. So, for me, you know, I will look up to or admire anybody in the political world that is consistent in their belief and persistent about it.

Mike Blake: [00:22:59] So, you’ve been in public service now for a decade. Really remarkable. And which means you’ve won five elections. Again, remarkable. How have you found that’s impacted your legal practice and your consulting practice?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:23:20] So, obviously, in the beginning, since I was an overnight candidate, from a law firm perspective, I wasn’t prepared to be a full-blown candidate. So, I think that was the hardest time because I didn’t have the preparation. I literally went from a private citizen to a full-blown candidate overnight. So, those early years are very, very rare. I’ve done a very good job, indeed, of managing it.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:23:54] And so, one of the things that I do, particularly during this upcoming legislative session, is I’m very, very good about saying no. Obviously, I have about 31,000 followers on this and everybody, you know, wants to pick my brain or hear a story or just advice about this. And I just say, “Hey, listen, I’m very good about saying no.” But the other thing is I try to focus on policies that I have an expertise into it, which is capital label, security work, investment, strategies, and things like that.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:24:32] So, it makes the work a little, not only more fun or more engaging, but a little easier to just pass the learning curve as you’re not spending as much time on it, you’re just focused on things that you really couldn’t deal with. So, over the years, I’ve been able to really find that balance. And I think that it served not only me will, but the State of Georgia will to have somebody focusing on policies that is also a part of their day job.

Mike Blake: [00:25:06] And Colin, how about you? You haven’t been in service quite as long, but it looks certainly long enough to have an impact. How have you found that’s impacted your career?

Colin Ake: [00:25:13] Yeah. It’s got a time impact for sure. You know, juggling multiple responsibilities is a challenge. You have to be very good about saying no.

Mike Blake: [00:25:25] And you’re moonlighting. Both of you are basically moonlighting when it comes down to it.

Colin Ake: [00:25:28] And, you know, there’s beauty and there’s challenge in citizen legislature and in citizen governance, but there’s balance that comes from having those multiple perspectives and experience. You have to find things that are important to you and prioritize them. You have to say no to a lot of things. People ask me what my hobbies are. My hobby is serving the citizens. You know, there are no other hobbies.

Colin Ake: [00:25:53] I’ve got a family, I’ve got a real job, and I’ve got an elected office. And that’s the majority of my time. So, you know, it changes things because it gives you different perspectives on life. You know, we don’t manage a budget anywhere near the size that Dar’shun deals with. This is, you know, at the city level, it’s a much smaller world. You know, our form of government, we have a city manager that’s full-time, essentially the CEO.

Colin Ake: [00:26:25] And we act as, you know, kind of a part-time board. But there are infinite subjects at any point time you can go learn a lot about, right? There are people who have built their careers off of public safety response, out of public works, out of community development. And to be a student of each of those games, enough where you’re informed, but not enough where you’re unable to focus on other things as, you know, you just have to juggle it.

Mike Blake: [00:26:50] So, the question I want to ask both of you, I’ll give Colin first crack at this, is there’s what I would call a romantic notion out there. And I used to have this. I’ve moved away from this view myself. But there’s a romantic notion that if you could just run government the way you’d run a private business, everything would just be hunky dory. And I’m not sure that our attempts to do that have worked out well, but I’m willing to be educated otherwise. Colin, in your experience, is that a realistic expectation? Is it partially realistic? Where do you kind of come down on that?

Colin Ake: [00:27:30] I’m going to say and I am making up an answer on the spot here. I think it depends on the level of government. Local government, small municipality is dramatically different from large municipality, it’s dramatically different from county government, and dramatically different from state government, which none of that, you know, is nearly as complex as the federal government. When you’re in a small municipality or, you know, we’re just over 30,000 people, it’s growing fast, there are elements that certainly translate.

Colin Ake: [00:28:05] You have HR challenges, you have budget challenges. So, there’s elements that translate. I don’t think it’s necessarily the same, right? Because you’re dealing with a lot of things like social contracts between neighbors and zoning issues that are really personal for people and really come down to, you know, interpretation of and belief in basic rights and principles. And so, there’s elements that translate, there’s elements that don’t translate even at the local level. But I don’t know if at the local level there’s more of it or less of it. What’s your your thought, Dar’shun?

Mike Blake: [00:28:43] Dar’shun, where do you come down on this?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:28:46] Yeah. So, it’s interesting. I just had finished going to a retreat with the technology advancements in Georgia. And my colleague, Joe, does a lot of technology work. He said, when he first got elected, which was last year, he said, “I have the misconception that government is—like a business. And boy, did I get a big surprise?” And I think if that is right and that—the problem with running government like a business is that their end goal is different, right?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:29:20] So, for businesses, this is representing corporations like I do, their first responsibility is a job upholder, which is to make profits, right? That is the end goal. There is the fiduciary duty that’s involved there. With government, obviously, it’s very, very different. The end goal is uphold constitution, improving for the public safety and welfare of their citizens. So, I think, the common point, you are going to have some-

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:29:53] You know, sometimes, when it works well, like under Georgia, we have a 26-billion dollar budget and we are not allowed to print money or borrow money like the federal government is. So, every year, we have to balance our budget like I effectively—but at the same time, you know, we were making those various techs and things that the priorities are going to be very, very different. Because it is a government entity, I suppose they have really different budgeting.

Mike Blake: [00:30:23] You know, that’s an interesting point. I want to kind of underscore something that in terms of that capacity to borrow. And in fact, most private businesses can borrow at some point, right? Even if you’re a sole practitioner, you could put a $20000 Mac Pro on your credit card if you wanted to. I’m not sure what you’d do with it, but you could certainly do that. Whereas, you know, as you said, if you’re not in the federal government, generally speaking, there is no borrowing capacity. You balance the budget, end of discussion or you just run out of money.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:31:03] Yeah. And, you know, that’s one of the things that obviously, the—this upcoming legislative session. And those conversation is just going to be different than if I was having a conversation with a board that I represented in the business.

Mike Blake: [00:31:22] So, has there been at some point, Dar’shun, where you’re concerned about there being a negative impact in your business? I mean, you know, we’re taught that we should be not discussing politics and business and generally speaking from the except of some very close business associates, I don’t entertain that discussion. You can’t avoid that because you’re out there and you got bumper stickers and you got signs on people’s house corners and so forth. You know, have there been points in which, you know, maybe that’s negatively impacted your business? Because there are people who look at you as a Democrat and say, “You know what, I’m just not going to do business with a Democrat, end of discussion.”

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:32:06] Yeah. That’s very possible. You know, I don’t have any empirical data that somebody has done that. But two things to your point. So, the first thing is I am an oddball and that I am not one of those people that think that we shouldn’t discuss policy. I think that’s the reason. Otherwise, because you don’t have those horrible sessions, that dinner on the table, so I am free and open—probably to my social media rather than dinner table.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:32:39] So, I am probably an anomaly and that I think it will never be obviously the factors of—it had taught me to be more tolerant of other people’s opinions. And so, I just think holding it up doesn’t serve anybody. So, I’m definite in my belief in that respect. But the second thing is, as I mentioned before, I tend to be one that criticized on both sides. But particularly, for Democrats, because I do understand and relate to business owners and founders, what they might do for the underlying labor movement.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:33:16] And that’s not to say that, you know, I’m against labor or anything like that. It’s just that I bring a different perspective. And so, I think knowing that and because of the things that I do as far as policy and collaborations and things like that, people might know that I’m a Democrat. But when it comes to business, particularly when it comes to technology, really, the people are more willing to—to me because of my support of businesses on the side.

Mike Blake: [00:33:55] So, let me switch gears here, because I think there’s an important question. And somebody out there is thinking about this question, I guarantee it. And that question is this. Colin, let me put it to you first. Somebody is thinking, “Wow. If I could just run for office, that would really help raise my profile.” What a great resume build or what a great thing to put on LinkedIn. And maybe it even gives you some other opportunities as well. And we’ll talk about conflicts of interest in a minute. But just generally speaking, you know, in your mind, is it worth running for office to help your career?

Colin Ake: [00:34:37] To me, no. There’s different opinions on this, obviously.

Mike Blake: [00:34:41] Right.

Colin Ake: [00:34:41] I think it’s worth running for office if you want to invest yourself in something and you want to learn a different perspective. Sure. I am sure there are examples of people who’ve gone into politics and their career has blossomed as a result. But at the local level, right? To me, I want counterparts on council, I want counterparts on the county commission that are dedicated to making the place that we live a better place, right?

Colin Ake: [00:35:12] And they come with a desire to invest their time and their resources and their energy in making those decisions that are never easy. And that’s a much better motivator to me than someone who’s there for them. It’s about a group. It’s about, you know, building consensus amongst people that don’t necessarily always see eye-to-eye and understanding nuances of issues and finding ways to come to agreements. Like that’s what it’s about. It’s not about, you know, personal gain.

Mike Blake: [00:35:50] Dar’shun, how about you? If somebody is thinking about running for office because they think it would help them personally or from a business perspective, is it worthwhile to have that thought process?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:36:08] I think that is probably the biggest myth besides—that I have heard with respect to public office. Well, because you want to prove and just have the heart to prove it. That I will tell you personally, one of the biggest, most helpful things that people just adviced that I got before I entered the legislature or that before I entered the legislature, it came from my predecessor, who was a lawyer, a legislator.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:36:40] And for those that don’t know, lawyer legislators are a dying breed. When I first got into office, we were about almost 25% of the general assembly and now, we’re down to about 17%. So, you might think that’s not bad, but it is what it is. So, that is—in the general assembly. But historically, we had less than that number. So, this lawyer legislator said it and put it ever so distinctly and it has been every bit of truth, is that it’s not a matter of if we will lose revenue and income in this position, it’s a matter of how much.

Mike Blake: [00:37:26] Okay.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:37:27] And every time a lawyer legislator is thinking about running for office, even if they have zero motives, I always give them the same advice. Your revenue and you income will go down. It’s not a matter of if it is going to go down, the question is how much. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that, you know, we especially engage in policy making for the first few months of the year, right? But then, there’s also, you know, possible conflict of interest, particularly if you work with bigger firms that might come about.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:38:04] People think we just work for four months out of the year. But I can tell you that I work no less than about three hours outside of session a week on legislature side. So, you know, you can be one of those legislators that just shows up and doesn’t advice anything and never say anything and just for like a check. I mean, that is, you know, “Why don’t you show up and vote for the budget?” Constitutionally, you’ve done what it is that you’re required to do on this constitution.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:38:32] But most people, you know, don’t want to do that and they wanted to be re-elected, so it does become a full-time desk job during the session and then, the other part is the time we’re out, it’s more of a part-time job. So, I would caution anybody who thinks that this is better, it’s going to raise your brand, for sure, but if you think that is going to translate to dollars, I would just be cautious about this and that it’s going to have a correlation.

Mike Blake: [00:39:00] So, Dar’shun, you brought something up that I want to jump on, because I think it makes sense to talk about here. And it’s another critical question we got to cover, which is I have to imagine there are many opportunities, particularly in your position, for conflict of interest to arise. How do you manage that?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:39:22] So, it actually is not as much of a conflict as you would think. So, because there are citizen legislators, right? Everybody knows we have a full-time job and we have to work. So, if I work for a bigger firm and I had a client of the firm that was advocated for a deal, that would be, of course, sort of conflict of interest right there. But because I’m a solo and because I am an attorney, you know, constitutionally, nobody can prevent me from practicing law, because just by law—right.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:40:06] So, you know, I consult on reviews that we have and things like that because that’s literally my job as a lawyer. But there are sometimes that the legislature will specifically set the legislation that we can’t engage in particular firms, particularly AJC—which was cannabis bill that we passed for the—growing the cannabis. I have never in my mind used to being down there seeing legislation that specifically sits in what I call a poison pill.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:40:47] And that it specifically prohibits legislators, former and current legislators, from investing in the cannabis business past 5% of an investment. And that was put in there for a long, drawn out reason that I know about. But anyway, it does prohibit. So, for example, I started an investment group that is going to participate in investing in the supply chain for cannabis. Well, I started the group, but I only serve as general counsel.

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:41:23] I’m not investing into it. I’m not putting any money into it. I’m not, you know, having input on the pitch process, in the investment process. Just because there is that specific proposition in there and I don’t want to be on the front page of AJC. So, there are times when the conflict is written into either the law or they probably prohibit us from engaging in it. But because, you know, it’s literally my profession, I’m generally allowed to sort of practice law and give advice, even though I might vote on this bill.

Mike Blake: [00:42:05] So, Colin, I’ll ask you a different question as we head to the end here. You know, how does sort of having a job and doing what you do alongside being a city councilman inform how you vote and how you propose and pursue policy?

Colin Ake: [00:42:29] It’s a good question. So, how does having a job help inform policy? So, I’m an entrepreneur turned academic, right? My day job is down at Georgia Tech. As such, I get access to a ton of people who are really smart in any given field. You know, we’re very fortunate to have a school of city and regional planning that is really good at pumping out good planners. There’s people down there that I can learn from on a technical topic. There’s a balance there, right? There’s obviously people with deep expertise that we can learn from and turn that into knowledge that informs policy.

Colin Ake: [00:43:18] There’s also a balance of, you know, when I’m at Georgia Tech, my Georgia Tech hat is on. And when I go off the clock there and go to City of Woodstock, my City of Woodstock hat has to be on. So, it’s a great question. For local policy, it’s different, I think, because local policy is often about things like sign code or zoning regulations or, you know, it gets into the minutiae really fast. And it’s not necessarily, you know, directly the same thing that I do with it at Georgia Tech. So, you know, I’ve got all sorts of ideas on an entrepreneurship policy or policy that could impact that world, the professional world that I deal with, but it’s not the same scale of policy that we deal with at the city level.

Mike Blake: [00:44:08] So, if I’m understanding correctly, in reality, you’re kind of in two parallel worlds that don’t necessarily meet a whole lot.

Colin Ake: [00:44:15] They don’t meet a whole lot.

Mike Blake: [00:44:18] Okay. We are running out of time here. And I want to thank you both so much for joining us. We could talk a lot longer about this, but we have to let you get back to serving your constituents. Dar’shun, how can people contact you if they may have an interest in running for office and want to learn more about it and why to do it and maybe why not to do it?

Dar’Shun Kendrick: [00:44:41] Yeah, sure. Anybody can follow me on social media. Beware, though, I am very vocal. So, just like yourself. But it’s just Dar’shun and Kendrick, D-A-R-S-H-U-N, Kendrick, K-E-N-D-R-I-C-K on Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter. So, people can, you know, invite me on there. I’m a millennial and I will give out my cellphone number, but that might be a little dangerous. So, if you can contact me on social media or either email me, just dkendrick@kendrickfor, F-O-R, georgia, Georgia—.com, then I will try my best to get back with you if we can if I’m not very, very busy. And short messages and questions.

Mike Blake: [00:45:33] Very good. And Colin, how about you?.

Colin Ake: [00:45:37] Email me at cake@woodstockga.gov, C-A-K-E, @woodstockga.gov. More than happy to lend some thoughts. My encouragement would be find a way to get involved in your local community and invest your time and energy somewhere near you. It doesn’t have to be an elected office, but we need people that are engaged, that are giving back, and that are trying to make the world a better place.

Mike Blake: [00:46:05] Okay, that’s gonna wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Dar’shun Kendrick and Colin Ake so much for joining us and sharing their expertise with us. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake, our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

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Decision Vision Episode 54: Should I Fire My Attorney? – An Interview with Jeff Berman, Berman Fink Van Horn, PC

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Decision Vision Episode 52: Should I Have a Veterans Hiring Program? – An Interview with Jason Jones, CRESA

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Decision Vision Episode 51: Should Married Couples Be in Business Together? – An Interview with Carol and Steve Docalavich, yourLTL

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Decision Vision Episode 48: Should I Hire a Business Development Professional? – An Interview with Susan O’Dwyer, Aprio, and Ann McDonald, Morris Manning & Martin, LLP

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Decision Vision Episode 47: How Can I Get My Employees to Think Independently? – An Interview with Joanna Bloor

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Decision Vision Episode 46: Does My Corporate Culture Need More Humor? – Karyn Buxman, The HumorLab

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Decision Vision Episode 45: Should I Increase My Prices? – An Interview with John Ray, Ray Business Advisors, LLC

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Decision Vision Episode 44: Should I Run for Political Office? – An Interview with Rep. Dar’shun Kendrick, Georgia House of Representatives, and Councilman Colin Ake, City of Woodstock

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Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

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