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Ryne Johnson: Building a Buffalo Culture Through Servant Leadership

March 2, 2026 by angishields

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Ryne-JohnsonRyne Johnson is a dynamic business leader and Owner of Spirit Movers, where he has spent more than a decade driving growth, innovation, and operational excellence.

Beginning his career with the company as a Cybersecurity Analyst and Project Manager, Ryne quickly rose through the ranks to Vice President & General Manager before ultimately becoming Owner. His leadership blends strategic vision with technical depth, positioning Spirit Movers for long-term success in a competitive marketplace.

Ryne holds a Master of Science in Cybersecurity with a concentration in Cyber Intelligence from the University of South Florida Tampa, along with a bachelor’s degree in Psychology from the University of South Florida Sarasota/Manatee. His diverse academic background informs his ability to align technology, people, and performance.

A recognized leader in both business and community, Ryne was named C12’s Member of the Year in 2022 and 2024, earning the Buffalo Award for outstanding CEO-level leadership. He serves on the Board of Directors for the Bradenton Area Economic Development Corporation and was honored in 2024 on both the Business Observer’s 40 Under 40 and SRQ Magazine’s 35 Under 35 lists, celebrating his impact and influence as one of the region’s rising leaders.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryne-johnson-mscs-878b8474/
Website: http://www.spiritmovers.com

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: Hello, Houston. Trisha Stetzel here bringing you another episode of Houston Business Radio. It is my pleasure to introduce you to my guest today, Ryne Johnson, the owner of Spirit Movers and a leader known for building culture first organizations grounded in servant leadership. Ryne has spent most has spent more than a decade inside spirit movers, starting in technical and operational roles, rising to vice president and general manager and ultimately becoming the owner of the company, giving him a rare inside out view of what it takes to lead at every level with a background in cybersecurity and psychology. Ryne believes great leadership comes down to two simple principles. He lives by learning what you don’t know and sharing what you do know. His approach has earned him C-12 Buffalo Award for CEO level leadership recognition on multiple 40 under 40 lists, and a reputation for building teams that last, not just companies that grow. Ryne, welcome to the show.

Ryne Johnson: Thank you. Trisha. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Trisha Stetzel: So excited to have you. It’s been a long time coming. Okay, before we get started, I would love for you to tell us just a little bit more about you.

Ryne Johnson: Absolutely. So, Ryne Johnson, obviously, I am the owner of Spirit Movers and it has been quite a journey to get to this point in my life, and I am extraordinarily proud of not only the challenges, but also the victories that led to this moment. Something that I would like to share with people to kind of show a bit, a bit bit more about me, about my background, is that I was actually adopted from Peru in 1990s. Cholera was just ravaging the country at that time, and my biological mom understood the complexities of that virus, especially with Peru being much more of a third world country at that at that time and space and the the lack of medicine where she was giving birth to her, the rest of her children really put a strain and a fear, if you will, in the perception of how she was going to move forward with her family. So what would have been? My older brother, unfortunately succumbed to the disease. He passed away. And so when she gave birth to me, she made the decision to go ahead and and put me up for adoption. And what that did for me, looking back now, has created just this sense of overwhelming honor to be where I am, because my life would have been dramatically different if I were to have remained in Peru. And that would be even if I was able to survive through that disease at that time, because it ultimately affected the young and the the elderly generation. So it, it it just gives a little bit more perspective of the mentality that I carry every day with me and the gratuity that I have just to be alive and to exist.

Ryne Johnson: You know, I think it’s one thing personally that when you’re grateful to exist and it’s I, I believe it’s one of the most positive things you can do. And not everyone is. And and sometimes I even struggle with it, too. But it just really shapes the paradigm that you have when you move forward, especially in a position of leadership. So to continue that story, I was adopted here into the United States by an amazing family who were located in in Sarasota, Florida, which is a couple miles, about an hour or so south of Tampa. Um, and it was just an honor to come here as well. They were an amazing family. They took incredible care of me, gave me opportunities that I could and would have never imagined possible if I were to have grown up and spent my time in Peru. And the other. The other factor that I like to to talk about is that I was actually able to go back multiple times to experience the culture and get to know more history and ancestry, but because of the fact that where my mother gave birth to me was so remote, I actually never got to meet her or the rest of my family. But we did try and it was very the first trip I went back. I’m not going to lie, it was very cathartic because there was a lot of emotions, there was a lot of unknowns, and being able to go there with a group of other individuals who had actually other families who had adopted children from Peru around that same time period allowed me to experience it and process a lot more than I would if I just went back alone, or even with just my adoptive family.

Ryne Johnson: And I like to share this one story because it just always I feel like it’s something that truly shaped me. As we were heading through the Sacred Valley, uh, the entire bus, the, uh, the tour guide stopped that bus and we got out, and we actually, the fathers and sons actually got to get behind a plow that a native father and son were, were, were utilizing in the field. And we actually spent about 30 to 45 minutes each plowing that field. Walking. Breathing. Essentially living a small moment of what our life probably would have been if we were to have remained in Peru. And so again, that just like that very moment, I will remember my entire life. And things get difficult. It just it just reminds me to stop complaining. Stop complaining. You know, you’re going to face challenges, and that’s okay. And actually, to look at it and wear it as a badge of honor that I get to show up here, I get to have this opportunity. I have been chosen to have the honor of leadership, and to have that role being placed on my life has just been amazing. So while it was a little bit lengthy of a story, I do feel like it really shapes and introduces who I am. And in a lot of what goes into the mentality that I carry when leading the organization and other areas of my life.

Trisha Stetzel: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable and, um, giving that story. It really does give a lot of insight into, um, where your leadership comes from. I want to talk just a minute about something that you said that I think will resonate with people is you get to it’s not you have to or you need to or you want to, but you get to. Have you always had that mindset of, I get to do things. And where do you think that came from?

Ryne Johnson: Yeah. Great question. Being complete this year, 2026. One of my words is transparency, both inward to myself and outward. I would say I didn’t always used to have that. And I think one of the beautiful things that came from a lot of these experiences when I was younger, before I went back to the country and really understood to that degree of what it was like to have, you know, it’s hard to envision what what would have been, especially in a situation like this. So before I didn’t necessarily have that same mentality and that same pair. But coming back from there, it really helped shape that and really continue to keep that at the forefront of my mind. And again, it’s something you have to be intentional about. Intentional is one of my favorite words as well, because if you’re not intentional about how you approach situations, your leadership and the events in your life, you’re going to just react. You’re not going to be able to take the moment to respond to them. And I think that is so important that we as human beings, we do have that ability no matter where we are, no matter what position we hold, we have the ability to choose how to respond. But we have to do that with intentionality. So to lead back to your your original question is, is no, I didn’t, but I could not be more thankful that I had the experiences I did to allow me to see in that light.

Trisha Stetzel: Absolutely. And I think it’s the people we surround ourselves with to that help us carry that through. And by the way, my word is intentional this year. So thanks for bringing that up. That’s my one word this year. Let’s talk about leadership. So, um, you’ve been in and now own Spirit movers and you’ve held many positions. So you’ve been in nearly every stage or every seat in this business. How did that experience from the inside out shape the way you lead today?

Ryne Johnson: Great question. The experiences that I had allowed me to see a full picture, not just come in from the outside and assume a certain position without fully understanding and or walking in the shoes of the team members that I would eventually be able to lead. I think that insight really allowed me to be able to go out of my way to connect at a deeper level with those individuals and not just assume anything, because I think assuming is one of the most dangerous things we can do, especially as leaders, because it can take you down a wrong path extraordinarily fast. So being able to have those different roles, being able to take the insights and wisdom that I were able to gain from those, and then to be able to come back and pour into this organization the way I do. I think that really was it was really key to be able to be not only. Again, intentional about my leadership, but at the same time respected on the other side that this isn’t somebody who’s just coming in out of nowhere and are going to change up a bunch of systems and a bunch of, you know, policies and procedures and what do they know? It was something that allowed me to really bridge that gap, if you will.

Trisha Stetzel: How has the culture changed over time in this business.

Ryne Johnson: I relentlessly build the culture at Spirit Movers and I believe that culture is key. Culture beats everything and anything, any day of the week. If you don’t have a strong culture, you really don’t have the foundation to create a lasting organization. I feel like culture is something that needs to be taught, not caught. And if you’re not intentional about it, it will just be caught and it’s on accident and it can completely lead the organization in the wrong direction. What I call and label our culture is Buffalo culture, and I’m not sure if you’re familiar, but the idea comes from the two main herd animals. You find out in the Midwest. You have cattle and you have buffalo or bison. And the way these two animals react to storms that are approaching is extraordinarily different, and their instincts actually are very insightful to how we as human beings tend to act as well when these storms of life approach. So what happens? Cattle. They instinctively scatter every one of them for themselves, and they run as the storm approaches, thinking they’re going to get away from the storm. But as they’re running, the storm inevitably catches up to them, and it remains over their head for a much longer period of time, exposing them to starvation, injury leading to death and separation from the herd at the worst cases.

Ryne Johnson: Whereas buffalo, on the other hand, they heard up, they run head first into that storm, they get through it so much quicker, and they get to enjoy the fruit of what’s on the other side of that. And that right there is the mentality of Buffalo culture and what I instill at Spirit Movers in the sense that this is an organization, this is a team, and we will not let each other run from the storms of life and from the the business challenges that we face. We are going to herd up together and charge head first into that storm, and it solves and allows us to be this, this collaborative group of individuals that understand that we have each other’s backs, that at the end of the day, there is nothing we can’t get through and get and overcome. And I think the most important part about it is, is, is the herd mentality in the sense that not just things in business. Is this how this is? This is applied to, but personal to someone struggling and going through something and having a bad day? I tell people, just put your arm around that, that, that brother or sister and let’s walk through that challenge with them knowing that the next person on your team has your back beyond just the profession that we’re in is very, very, very relieving for so many people.

Ryne Johnson: And it also shows and speaks into what we had touched on earlier about servant leadership. And I think that that is so key to creating a healthy culture. When you can when you can train, you can teach your people that service and serving others isn’t demeaning. There is so much power in being able to selflessly serve. And, and and I say selflessly serve because there’s people who serve others hoping to get something out of it. That’s not selfless. Selflessly serving is serving somebody without the intent to get anything back and to do so just because and I because you want to help them get better. You want to see them left in a better way than when you approach them in the first place. And in doing so, it makes a world of difference. And so I couldn’t, I couldn’t I could talk about culture all day long, and I, and I could not emphasize anymore how important it is. And it’s just a part of our of who we are, and it will always be.

Trisha Stetzel: I love that, by the way, I’ve heard your Buffalo story once before and I still got goosebumps. Thank you for sharing it. I love that. It’s fantastic. Um, just quick break in. Let’s tell people who are interested in connecting with you how to find you. What’s the best way to find Ryne?

Ryne Johnson: Yeah, so best way to connect with me directly would be through my email. And that’s going to be my first name r y n@spirit.com, and that’s spirit s p I r I t and then movers plural m o v e r s. Com also, LinkedIn is a great way to connect as well, and I believe that link will be in the profile of this video. So you can connect with me there as well.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah. Well absolutely. You guys know I will put the links to Ryne’s contact information in the show notes. So if you’re sitting in front of your computer please point and click. If you’re in the car, do not do that. Uh, when you get home you can and it’s r y n e Johnson j o h n s o n if you’re looking for him online. All right. Tell me about spirit movers.

Ryne Johnson: So spirit movers in the original days of its founding was a local relocation company, Household Goods. So we started at just a very small radius of just within our city of Sarasota. And as we grew, we were able to now take individuals throughout the state of Florida and even the country. And as the as the company continued to progress, we now also are able to do international relocations and do do so regularly. One of the team members that has joined is could remember more than I’ll ever forget in regards to the the tariff, the, the, the customs understanding documents and procedures. And he also has lived all over the all over the world. So he speaks many languages. So it’s great to see him connect with our, our, our potential customers and customers in their own language and, and be able to really just bridge that, that that relationship and strengthen that deeper level. And that has been our bread and butter in our history. And as we move forward, last year, we were working on something that I had a vision for, I would say about 3 to 4 years ago when I finished my schooling, and what it is, is to branch into and pivot into a more commercial, B2B focused division. The new division is called Strategic Commercial Commercial Solutions Rs for short, and this division targets in particular the high end design industries for both private clients and commercial spaces, as well as the medical and hospitality industries.

Ryne Johnson: The reason we chose those in particular is they are less likely to be affected by the economy. Medically, all the hospitals, doctors offices. Let me take an example for Covid. You know, they they everything shut down and they continued to to to steam full blast ahead. And the hospitality industry, believe it or not, with hotels they most of the hotels, especially the larger brand named hotels like Marriott for Marriott, for example. They actually allow and a lot a remodel budget. And when the economy turns down a bit, they act on that because they don’t the amount and the typical occupancy that they have. So when the economy is good, they’re building more hotels for the tourism. And when the economy turns down, the current hotels go into a remodel phase. And then the high end design industry targets that high end, affluent clientele. And again, they pull back to some degree. But if they still looking to have something done, they’re still going to move forward and take in a lot of cases, what they view as an opportunity in those economic moments of uncertainty and really the services and solutions rather that we provide in this industry or this excuse me, in this division, are logistics, warehousing, high end and very detailed installations and then also fulfillment services.

Ryne Johnson: So we will go out and receive brand new product for any of these industries when they’re building a new facility. And we we have a sophisticated electronic and online inventory portal where all of our clients are able to actually see in real time what products we have received into our facility, where they’re located, images of them, any data points they need. And then they can pick and choose what products need to go out and be installed and what facility and at what level. And then we have our teams go ahead and are able to locate them because of the sophistication of the software very efficiently, and then have the very well trained, much more highly trained individuals than on the moving side or the relocation side. Go out there and perform the installations. Truly a one stop, bespoke level, almost concierge type of solution provider for these industries. To take all of that off their plates and handle the complex logistics, which most of them, let’s face it, wouldn’t really want to deal with in the first place. So it’s it’s been an opportunity, especially here in Florida, that’s growing regularly, robustly. And and we’re very excited to to have the official launch of that division this year, 2026. And so we’re looking forward to a strong first year. And and just sky’s the limit from here. So we’re excited.

Trisha Stetzel: Amazing. Congratulations. That’s fantastic. And I can’t wait to see this new division flourish in 2026. You may have to come back and tell me how things are going. I it would be so much fun. Okay. I want to come around to something that I said in your intro, and I actually picked it up from our last conversation. It really sat with me and I wanted to bring it up here, and I want you to talk about it. So you’ve said that leadership is about learning what you don’t know and sharing what you do you know? How has that changed? How has that mindset changed the way you build teams and develop leaders?

Ryne Johnson: Absolutely. The thing about being curious about what you don’t know, and generous with what you do, is approach to knowledge, wisdom that most leaders tend to overlook that at least in my opinion. There’s a lot of cases where, for whatever reason it may be, people tend to hold that tight, that knowledge, that understanding, and don’t tend to or want to share it. And I think that when you’re able to look at building a team of individuals who share that same characteristic, you create a team that is going to collaborate together, that they’re going to grow together, most importantly. And then on top of that, understand what interdependence and how powerful that is Naturally, when we’re born, we’re dependent. We get to get to a certain point where we become independent and the culture tells us independent is, is where we all need to be. And while we all have to be independent, it is not the most supreme form of maturity, in my opinion, when you can recognize that sure, all of us have different talents and we can get very far with them on our own, but we can get so much farther and build so much more and achieve greatness when you bring great minds together. That is when you truly unlock something that is extraordinary, in my opinion. And so with that being said, everybody who I interview or think about bringing on to my team, I ask that question to myself when I’m finished. Is this person generous with what they know and are they curious about what they don’t know? Curiosity. It’s something you can’t. You either have or you don’t. It’s not something that you can really you can’t really train that. You can’t bring that out of somebody. They either have it or they don’t because curiosity is genuine. And I think that that, that those characteristics truly, truly set us apart in the sense of how we go about bringing on team members to the to the organization.

Speaker 4: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Trisha Stetzel: I’m having so much fun and our time is going to run out quickly. Um I have one last question for you that, um, I’d love for you to leave the audience with, um, just kind of your thoughts on if a leader who’s listening today wants to get better just by 1%. Just 1%. What’s one thing they should start learning and one thing they should start sharing this week?

Ryne Johnson: Love it. I would say the one thing that someone should start learning if they want to get better 1% is how to build effective systems in their life. I think a lot of us confuse goals with something that could once achieved, change everything for somebody. And while goals are great and we need to have goals, if you don’t have the right systems in place, you’re never going to achieve those goals. And that’s one of the reasons why, when we start out New Years and everybody has wonderful goals, that they falter rather quickly. And when I say systems, I’m talking about the understanding and the appreciation of the process. If we can’t learn to love the process of growth because let’s face it, growth and comfort, they do not coexist. They can never. So it’s going to be uncomfortable. And if you can’t learn to love that, you’re never going to move forward. So I would say learn how to build a sustainable system of growth and that can be different for everybody. Also, don’t overcomplicate it, right? There’s a difference between easy and simple to get it confused all the time. Easy is without effort. Simple without complication. Achieving growth in any area of your life doesn’t have to be complicated, but it has to be consistent. The other thing that I would say to continue to answer that question is, is growth always also isn’t always adding more. Sometimes it’s it’s it’s removing something. And so as leaders and individuals who want to pursue that path, sometimes it takes a moment to to clean out the garage, if you will. Our minds are kind of like garage. All of our thoughts are our possessions, right? We own them. When was the last time you cleaned out your garage in your mind and got rid of the things that no longer serve you. To be able to replace them with things that do and or maybe just keep them keep keep a little bit less in there so that you can focus on doing the things that you have intended to do. Well.

Speaker 4: I love that.

Trisha Stetzel: I’ve had so much fun today. I really appreciate you being on. I feel like, uh, we have so much more to talk about, so I’d love to invite you to come back on this show, maybe later this year, to tell us how things are going with your new division and give us some more nuggets. Ryne, you’ve said so many amazing little nuggets today. I can’t wait to put some shorts out with the knowledge that you’re sharing with us today. I really appreciate your time as well.

Ryne Johnson: And Trisha, it has been a it’s been a pleasure talking with you and I would love to come back on. So if that offer stands. Count me in.

Trisha Stetzel: Fantastic. All right, Ryne, one more time. How can people connect with you and also find out more information about Spirit movers?

Ryne Johnson: Yes. So best personal email to connect with is my first name Renee at Spirit Movers. Com and as well the website to our company is WWE Spirit Movers. Movers plural. Go ahead and check us out. We also have a really great and funny, if I might not add, Instagram feed. Getting into social media and like that. Our team is always laughing and is is is enjoying what they do even though it’s not easy. It’s not easy work, but you should check it out as well I think.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Trisha Stetzel: Fun. So the handle there, spirit movers, we can find you.

Ryne Johnson: So yes. Spirit movers. It’s I’m going to I think it’s I’m almost positive it’s underscore srq. So spirit movers underscore srq.

Trisha Stetzel: Okay. Fantastic. And again I’ll grab that, I’ll find it and I’ll grab it and put it in the show notes. So if folks are sitting at their computer, they can point and click. Ryne, again, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it and can’t wait to have you back.

Ryne Johnson: Sounds great. Thank you again for having me. Have a wonderful day.

Trisha Stetzel: Thank you. All right guys, that’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that Ryne and I had today, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, a veteran or Houston business leader ready to grow. Be sure to follow, rate, and review the show. Of course, it helps us reach more bold business minds just like yours and your business. Your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.

Andre Ankri: Turning ADHD, AI, and Radical Candor into Leadership Superpowers

March 2, 2026 by angishields

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Andre-AnkriAndre Ankri is a visionary entrepreneur and technology strategist with more than a decade of experience spanning construction, security technology, and business development. As Founder and CEO of UTS Group, he leads the integration of advanced technologies and automation to create intelligent, secure, and scalable environments across Canada.

In addition to UTS Group, Andre heads Metador, a consultancy focused on helping organizations adopt AI and automation to modernize operations and simplify complexity. He also founded Beyzim, a B2B marketing firm dedicated to driving growth through clarity, precision, and meaningful strategic connections. Across all ventures, his work centers on bridging traditional industries with forward-thinking innovation.

With a background in architecture and military service, Andre combines design thinking with discipline and resilience. Open about living with ADHD, he embraces it as a strength that fuels creativity, rapid problem-solving, and systems-level thinking. His mission is to help businesses harness technology, empower diverse thinkers, and unlock sustainable growth in an ever-evolving world.

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/andre-ankri-7a4090311/
Website: http://www.utsgroup.ca

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: Hello, Houston. Trisha Stetzel here bringing you another episode of Houston Business Radio. Today’s guest is Andre Ankri , a veteran entrepreneur and AI automation consultant who helps leaders work smarter without burning out. Originally from Israel and now based in Canada, Andre brings a military mindset to modern business through his work Leading Matador, where he helps companies use AI and automation to reduce friction, reclaim time, and build stronger teams. Andre is also a passionate advocate for extreme honesty, being radically candid about strengths, limits, and systems, and for neurodiversity, openly sharing how ADHD, dyslexia and Ocpd have become leadership superpowers rather than obstacles. His perspective blends human intuition, technology and mission driven leadership focused on clarity, trust and sustainable performance. Andre, welcome to the show.

Andre Ankri : Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be to be a guest. And thank you for the invite.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, I’m excited to have you on with me today. So, Andre, will you tell us just a little bit more about you?

Andre Ankri : Yeah. Uh, so my name is Andre. I grew up in Israel. I moved to Canada around almost 15 years ago. Uh, kind of as the background of growing up. Uh, I’m the oldest from four boys. Uh, I trained for over 15 years in karate. That is kind of embedded in me, I guess, for disciplined. Uh, I serviced, uh, IDF. Israeli army as a technical, uh, fighter, engineer, uh, dealing with kind of explosive. That was a very interesting job. Uh, as I mentioned, I immigrated to Canada almost a bit less than 15 years ago. Uh, I built my first company, uh, in Canada, uh, called UTS Group. That is a security integration and design company that we service, uh, pretty much Canada and the US, uh, in the commercial area, working also a lot with municipalities, uh, the police army kind of helping them. How to automate security. Uh, through my journey, I also own another glazing, uh, commercial glazing company. So we do a glass and aluminum work again in the commercial area. Uh, and kind of my, let’s call it, uh, the thing is more for the for the soul than a business is matador. A matador is a business consultation that we focus on AI automations, uh, helping businesses to bring them up to, usually until a few days ago, set to 2025, but to 2026, uh, technology and to kind of understand how to manage businesses smarter, uh, from a place of how to work smarter, not harder, uh, and how to communicate better and create a better communication through systems.

Andre Ankri : Uh, and a lot of them is, is kind of more based on my experience. Uh, I’m, I’m very proud to have ADHD, Ocpd and I’m a, again, a level five dyslexic. Uh, but I’m showing people how these these things are not in obstacles. I call them superpowers. And today, especially with AI, it’s kind of bridging the gap, and I really like to share it with people and educate around it and show them that. It’s like I said, it’s not an obstacle. Like there is things that coming with have ADHD. For a mind that is able to run faster and pay attention for more details, uh, that it’s it’s an amazing tool that I call it a gift from God. Uh, that when I grew up and understand and become more honest with myself, uh, I understand it’s actually how it helped me in a lot of areas, even when as a kid training karate and competing as well in, in the Army, uh, that all of that is the thing that kind of creating our personality and creating us to be unique. So it’s it’s not a it’s not a disease. It’s not a, an issue. It’s not a disability. Uh, it’s a gift.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, I love that. And one of the reasons why I wanted you to come and join me on the show, because there’s so much for us to unpack today. I’d love to start with because you’re demonstrating it as you were introducing yourself and talking about the things that you’ve done over your lifetime and the things that you’ve been dealing with and the superpowers that you have that you have. And that’s extreme honesty. So you talk about extreme honesty as a turning point for you. What does that actually look like in day to day leadership, and why is it so uncomfortable for most founders?

Andre Ankri : So there are a few things related to that one. First of all, it’s something there is different type of owners. So we have a people that built a company so they have a job. The people that own a company and they’re operating the company, so I don’t call them business owners. They’re business operators because the business is not able to work without them. And then there is the higher level that is coming with your level of leadership that you actually become a business, a business owner, because you own a business, you don’t work in the business. The business is not needing you. And also part of honesty, everybody starts a business so they have a job. When I start my first business, I have a young kid. I moved to Canada. I just got married. Uh, it was not about building something. That was. I didn’t find my why back then. My why was I need an income? I need to put food on the table, uh, and with with growth and kind of understanding, you understand to which level of a business owner you are and also understanding where you are. Good. For me personally, it came that the company grew quite a lot. And then I understand that in order to take it to the next step. I have to go to a very big, two very big obstacles. One, it’s my emotional connection to the company.

Andre Ankri : Uh, I was saying for many, many years when people were talking about my business, I said, this is my baby. And it was a very foolish thing for me to say. I have two babies. I have my son and I have my daughter. They are my only babies. Uh, and a lot of people are connecting to their business emotions, and it’s making them hard to make decisions because emotional connections are not being actual honest of what needs to be done. Uh, on my company for UTS, the second company growth, I had to come to a place of honesty to know if I want to take the company to the next step, and I really want to sustain the company. There is one person that was a very important part in the company, but now is a liability, and that person is me. I need to get out. I’m interfering. Uh, and it’s coming for a place to understand what type of a business person I am. I’m not an operator. I’m not a person that fit to operate a company because I like excitement. I play to my ADHD. I like stuff moving. So I’m a I’m a leader. That is good. When there is a crisis, a good or a bad one, a crisis of growth. Crisis of almost again company losing money. A I’m a good leader when we want to launch something new and to run different ideas and to get stuff.

Andre Ankri : But I’m not the right leader to run a business to sustain. And in the words of Jim Rohn, he’s saying there’s two different types of businesses. There’s an exciting business, and there’s a boring business. Exciting business is losing money, a boring business is making money. And it’s not boring because what you do is boring is about sustainability of the system, the way it’s growing. I’m not able to manage a boring business because I will create an excitement and then I’ll create something. And it’s also not fair for my team because I’m not giving them structure. I’m not giving them stability because I will see something and say, you know, guys, all right, we’re going to start opening another branch in Alaska because I saw something, I came with an idea and now I want to go with that because I need excitement as a person that have ADHD. And over the years, it’s kind of a met to kind of understand what is honesty. Honesty is understanding that if someone did a mistake and I’m very strict in my businesses, I believe in the two two mistake rule. The first mistake. Sorry. True true true mistake rule. So the first one is if someone did a mistake, it’s an amazing thing because you will learn from mistakes.

Andre Ankri : Everybody’s parents told us not to touch the fire. We all touched it. And then we learn it’s we’re going to get burned the second time. Someone will do a mistake. You I will. Your question is like, hey, you spoke about it. We. We discuss it. It happened again the third time. We’re not a good fit. And if by implementing kind of that type of rules of kind of fitting with people how to work. It’s also understand that doesn’t matter who did the mistake in the company. I push people to do mistakes. I’m very proud of my mistakes. They are my biggest achievements in life. Every every mistakes. Every person that, uh, did harm to me stole from me. And I had a lot of stories over the years from employees stealing, uh, almost crushing the companies. And every person I see today, I’ll be hugging them and say thank you because they pushed me to do better. Uh, this is kind of how we learned, but any person that did a mistake, if someone did something wrong to me, all the employee that stole my client list or my business plan, I didn’t keep my business plan safe enough. I didn’t keep my cards where I needed to. It’s. There is only one person’s fault. It’s my fault. If an employee did a mistake, I didn’t provide enough training. Or if he did.

Andre Ankri : Many times I didn’t stop it in a way to maybe that person had to be replaced. So as my team, I always telling them doesn’t matter what mistakes you did, let’s learn from it. The end of the day, it’s all my mistakes again. It’s all coming back to me. It’s my fault to deal with that. And it’s that to be honest. And the honesty in that part is a part of a maturity as a leader to understand that one. It’s okay to do mistakes. We don’t need to cut people’s head. And I was never like that all the time. I learned over the years, uh, when I look back, I think I was very aggressive and maybe even abusive, uh, manager person to work for. Uh, and I lost good people around the way, but I had to get mature and understand better from it. Uh, but there is understanding that stuff. Mistake will happen. You cannot make a system that is bulletproof is setting up. When we setting up process is how to measure it. What is what is the success? What is a failure? What is the value of the failure of that stuff? How we going to make sure that it’s going to happen? And even if I take everything in consideration that something will never happen again, as someone steal my business plan or a client list I can never expect for 100%.

Andre Ankri : Sustainability is always for me. At 70%, I create system that can give me a steady 70%, maybe a little bit more, but I’m always expecting that there will be a failure one we’re going to learn from it. Business change need is changing, so you need to be aware of stuff is happening and not to be surprised if something is making a mistake. Like even if I do security for our office and everything will, someone will stop someone from breaking in. It depends. If it’s worth it, they will. There is always a way. So if I come in the morning and I see that the window is broken, maybe there was a good reason. And this is why we pay insurance. So why? Why to kill the day and getting upset or giving shit to someone about it. It’s a it’s not worth it. I’m not saying that sometimes, you know, we give this shit, but it’s it’s to be aware and understand everything. And just to be honest and part of myself, be honest with myself. I’m not very open for people that aren’t honest. So the team around me has to be extremely honest and honest, saying like people that I like. If someone come to me and say, Andre, the idea you came in the meeting, it’s stupid. I would like for me it’s like the best thing.

Andre Ankri : It’s like, okay, tell me why, prove me wrong, please prove me wrong. People that will say the opposite, they say, Andre, your idea was so great. I’m like, okay, you’re not for me. I want the guy that said that I’m stupid and tell me and how I can actually learn from him. And this is kind of more understanding. And it’s honesty also related to curiosity. If you want to be curious, you have to be honest of what you don’t know. If I’m a meeting with my accountant and he’s using a word I don’t know, I need to stop and say, hey, what is that word? It doesn’t make me last. I’m just honest. I don’t know it. And I’m curious to know more. So that is pretty much in a recap kind of my approach that has changed me as honesty and just to be honest with myself. It’s also a very it’s feel very lighter to be honest. Some people find it to be. I have a sign that actually I got from my wife that that’s saying I don’t sugarcoat. My name is not Willy Wonka. Uh, and it’s just because I just say the truth in the face for people. And some people are not ready for it because they’re not honest with themselves, but we cannot control them. So it’s it’s a mindset in the end of the day.

Trisha Stetzel: But I love that, um, everything that you talked about here really surrounds personal responsibility and mindset, going from being an operator to an owner. It’s a mindset shift. You have to think about your business differently. You can’t call it your baby when it’s your business, and that’s a mindset shift. And taking the personal responsibility when things are happening around you, that it’s something that you can control and it’s something that you can do something about, and having the right people on your team, doing the right things in the right way. Uh, all of that is so important. Thank you for sharing all of that. And I love the idea of extreme honesty. And I like Willy Wonka too, but I do like Sugar Coated every once in a while. I’m just kidding. Yeah, I’m just kidding. Um, I would love to talk about how, um, your superpower, um, and the misunderstanding around neurodiversity, because a lot of people wouldn’t say that ADHD, dyslexia, and Ocpd are a superpower. So let’s talk more about the way that has shaped the way you think. Prioritize and build systems that you’ve been talking about.

Andre Ankri : So ADHD the the way that my wife again, so my son, my two kids have ADHD as well. And when my son, my oldest son was actually diagnosed, my wife told me about it and she was like, he got diagnosed with ADHD and she is a person that does not have it and she’s a social worker. It came from a place kind of more giving me a, a message about something happened and my response to it is like, great, I’m so happy for him. And she’s like, yeah, but I told him it will be hard, but I’m super happy for him. And the same thing happened after that with my younger daughter. And the reason that ADHD over the years, again, as a kid, I never was medicated. Uh, and now as an adult, I do see it very important for me to get medicated because again, the body change and we need more. I’m not as active as I was when I was younger, so I need something to calm me down and understanding that, yes, ADHD. There is a lot of great things I can. When we discuss, I can speak with someone, for example in a meeting and he will give me an idea. By the time he finished the idea, I already have a business plan running in my head because it’s like I have a few different computers running at the same time, and only on stuff that’s interesting. If it’s something that isn’t me, my head is just going to something else and I’m disconnecting. It’s it’s a it’s kind of a gift and a problem sometimes in the same time.

Andre Ankri : And you need to know how to balance it. But I kind of took it to a place. I’m a very curious person, as I mentioned earlier. And I give you example. So for example, my office, uh, all my team is sitting in a different office. My office is literally a separate unit in the building that is only myself. As you see behind me, I have a lot more windows. All my windows are always shut, so I cannot see anyone moving around because I’m on a main floor usually. Now the light is on, but usually the light is off so I don’t see anything. I have a front of me five screens. Every screen has a job. This is more my Ocpd, so there is one as the main one for browser, one for my AI, one for my chats. Everything has to be organized by having everything very extremely organized. And my again, my my office is like a China store. Everything is in its place, very organized. It’s coming a lot of boxes in my head. So let’s say the box about organizations. The second everything is super organized, I don’t have to think about it. Nothing is like, oh yeah, I have to put that. No, no, no. Every place, everything has a place for it to come. I have a charger for every device related in my on my table. Everything is in reach of a hand. I don’t have to get up because if I get up, most likely something will take my attention and I’ll do something else.

Andre Ankri : So I’m, I’m I’m sitting in a very specific way. My back is to the window. So even if there will be something happen, not there. I’m using headphones with noise cancellation. So even if someone will speak from the second floor or the next, it’s I’m focused on what I need to do. So it’s helping myself to eliminate a lot of other stuff. What it’s creating me more space of capability in my head to do a in my head, to do a other stuff, to utilize the space of the running power. And the biggest thing that I that I found. So, for example, when I come to a client to sit in his office, every person office has showing about his personality. So I’m coming to do kind of a sale. If I come to someone’s office and I see in his office a I’ll see in his office that his office is there is no anything private in the office. Everything in the office is very generic. There is no picture of kids. There’s no picture of going golfing or cars or anything. It’s pretty much telling me, all right, this person, always new for the job or is not that invested for sure is not the owner without even saying to me because he doesn’t, there is no ownership to the place is is going and or is the place doesn’t feel comfortable. And it started only from that. And from that I start taking it to kind of much, much wider of understanding people.

Andre Ankri : And I found that the ADHD allowed me to, as I speak with someone to kind of analyze all of that information. It’s kind of more become as a game because when people are coming and meeting. There is a lot of stuff of common things that happened. I, let’s say, as a technician, is coming to provide an estimate for in your house to to kind of a, let’s say, fix the dishwasher. And by going over there, you okay? I’m you expect someone to come with a commercial van. Maybe a pickup. He will work a cargo pants or jeans. Uh, he will have a binder or tablet to write information. And you have a toolbox. This is what your head is expecting someone to come and to do what you do. If that person comes in with a suit, how are you going to feel? Something does not match here. I took that approach and I embedded in our business. So I’m the person that actually coming in the suit for again to the commercial sites. And I found that I was able instead of me fitting to a template to a boxing people what they expect will happen from that meeting. Uh, people were actually I was able to open my own box and to utilizing data that can run the information much, much faster and to create a different experience through that. And that is kind of as an example on sales. And we did it in different areas of the businesses that I do of analyzing, of able to go more deep research, understand who is my clientele, what they want.

Andre Ankri : And today with Matador, a lot of companies, what they want from a consultation say, Andre, we have an idea for a product. We want to do a product that will do that and that. And then we’re doing a session on say, okay, who is your client? How are you going to reach out to him? Why are they going to go? And the ADHD is able for me to go very, very broad, very, very wide of understanding people better. Of course, it’s not only ADHD. I love reading, I like I said, I curious. I read a lot of books of understanding everything, but it’s able to work for me that I’ll have a much bigger library to work with everything and that I’m utilizing kind of all the tools and eliminating the stuff is bugging me to higher production. And this is kind of the, the, the benefit that’s coming from that, coming from that. Uh, and it’s this is what I’m saying. It’s a gift. I, I enjoy it. Uh, enjoy it a lot. And I when people kind of even when I remember as an adult I was supposed to kind of I got rediagnosed again and they asked me about medication. I, I was very afraid that something would take it for me, because I’m afraid that it will create my way of thinking to be narrower, that I’m not able to kind of see stuff in a more wide way.

Andre Ankri : And now, specifically with implementation of AI, what I call the the technology revolutions we are going through right now, that we’re very lucky to be part of it. You can take it to the next level Because now I have more tools to kind of helping me even to again, do a few things at the same time and review a few things in, in the same time and communicate with more people and and to share and automated more ideas. Like I have a tool of AI saying to me, pretty much, I can do whatever you want if you know how to use me properly. And for me, it’s a huge sandbox. It’s it’s amazing. And we’re creating crazy things that allow us to also to grow as a company. And everything is coming from understanding for the ADHD. And the other thing about ADHD, it came back to the honesty. A person with ADHD cannot be an operator. This is how I understand of who, what type of a leader I am, what type of a manager of who I’m able to work with. And that again is the best gift I got from God. And this is why I call it a superpower. Because any any gift we get, if a person know how to paint or you know how to play the piano or anything if you’re actually seeing it as a gift and he’s focusing around it, it will become a superpower eventually. So it’s kind of our choose if you want to activate our superpower or not.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. Again, back to that personal responsibility and taking responsibility for yourself and the superpowers that you have and the way you think about them, the way you think about the things that you have right there in your hand, right, or in your body or in your mind. I love that you started to integrate, um, the discussion around AI as well as neurodiversity or neurodiversity. And I see how that you’re using them together. But I also think, uh, and you’ve talked a lot about this as well, that human judgment, intuition and trust are so important. So for those who are listening, how do we balance Andre between technology and that actual human interaction, that judgment, that intuition and trust that we have, how do we balance those two things?

Andre Ankri : I think, first of all, about a human interaction. So as a like a lot of people kind of share with them and I tell them I’m a very shy person and like, you’re not shy at all. I told him I’m not shy because I choose not to be shy. Shy, but as as a person. I was again a very introvert in a in a way. But the second that I understand why I was introvert, because I was thinking about stuff that, for example, my head again, ADHD is also related to a lot of negative thinking, and the ADHD actually made me to be think that I’m an introvert because if I don’t think positive, be positive, I did. You take me okay, you’re not good enough. Or if you, as a person who kind of was was fighting with my my weight is like, okay, you’re overweight so that people is over there that you hear them whispering, they’re talking about you. And by being honest with myself saying, this is who I am, I do the stuff that is making me feel good. So for me, for example, as a kid when I was, uh, kind of someone will ask me kind of what I want to be when I’ll be older. I’ll tell them a profession. But for me, what was actually I want to wear suits.

Andre Ankri : I don’t know what I want to do yet as a kid, but I really love to see how people wearing suits. I find it to be very, very nice. So my goal was, doesn’t matter what I’m going to do, I want to wear a suit. But I found a suit was much more than that. It was what I call my armor, because then it gave me my kind of confidence. Because now I start my morning and I started with, with a success of doing something that I want positive. I’m wearing something that I like that make me feel good. So my interaction with other people of understanding this is who I am. I’m doing what is good for me and I’m fulfilled with myself. I’m okay with understanding why am I don’t think that I’m less than other people? And this is why I don’t, uh, you know, I as a person, I get if you go on my email and everything, I don’t have a title. You’ll never see it saying CEO or even on my email, but the only thing I wear is kind of as brass on my shoulder is my ADHD and dyslexia and stuff like that. That is kind of the the opposite, uh, from it, because I’m very proud of who I am.

Andre Ankri : Like, it’s, uh, it’s not something I say, okay, it’s an issue. Okay. I cannot do it because that and that. No, it’s it’s it’s who I am. And the second I’m okay with who I am, it’s okay. I don’t really care about what other people is, is saying about me because I know, of course, I care about other people opinions or feelings, but I don’t allow them to affect about myself. The AI part is helping us. Where we’re struggling is where we can take areas that we have issues with, and to create them to be, to be better is, for example, it’s from a place of a organization. If in a place for remind me about you need to do something or to organize my stuff so I won’t forget about it. Ai is a tool I always combine when people saying, we read a lot of stuff about AI, about how dangerous and will take people jobs and stuff like that. And I’ll say AI won’t take people jobs. Someone that know how to use AI will take people’s jobs. Uh. But AI is a tool. It’s the same thing as if the. If a drill, a new drill will come up that has new features, bigger battery and everything. Every company will want to use it. Ai is a drill.

Andre Ankri : We just need to learn how to use it. And we need to be curious enough and willing to put the work to see how it can help me. And today I actually read an article this week. Over 95% of the people using AI don’t know how to use it. They think they know how to use it, but they don’t know how to use it. And because nobody is actually putting the effort to train it, to understand it, to be curious of how it’s supposed to be, there are more. Want to say, hey, yeah, of course I’m using AI to answer my emails. It’s not what AI was designed for. If you wanted to answer your emails, you don’t have to use it. You will answer your emails for you. But it’s not what was was designed that they didn’t understand the tools they have. They pretty much using the drill as a way to hold papers. And that is kind of more as as curiosity and understanding of saying, first of all, like I said, happy with my happy with myself, who I am and the way I present to other people and AI how it can help me for The force is a tool how I can use it. So it’ll be easier for me to communicate when I’m talking with people.

Andre Ankri : Uh, so let’s say if I’m in a meeting, if I will start writing notes during a meeting with you, it will be hard for me to focus as a person that have ADHD. So AI has a note taker and we’ll activate it during our meeting. And now I can be focused on you. So it’s bridging the gap. If I write you a text freely myself, you won’t understand it. There’ll be like 50,000 spelling mistakes. So I’ll speak to my phone. He will fix my grammar. And then he’ll send it to you. And you’ll bridge me the gap. Because before that, I was shy to send people texts because they say, hey, it’s a mature person. He’s writing with the spelling mistakes. So this is the areas we can use that tools to help us as a tool, not a solution, not a replacement. But first of all, it’s about us being fulfilled with ourselves. And I’m okay with who I am, regardless if I have ADHD or not and not allowed people around us to say affect us and just be happy with ourselves. And for me, it’s starting from a small thing I wear in the morning. What? The stuff is making me happy. So I start my morning with the success and this is how my approach going forward.

Trisha Stetzel: I love this, uh, coming all the way full circle to extreme honesty. Not just with others, but with ourselves and what we bring to the table and the superpowers that we have. Um, okay. As we wrap up, remind us a little bit about UTS Group. Tell us what you’re doing in that particular business, and then I’d love for you to give us your contact information, because I know people really want to connect with you on what we talked about today.

Andre Ankri : Yeah. So UTS Group is our security integration. It’s a it’s a business security a related to automation business. And kind of the mentoring consultation I do. It’s under Matador and people can reach out to me on my LinkedIn. I. I post content daily about different hacks and processes that I built and even for my morning routine, how I build it to help me as a person have ADHD. So Andre exactly as my name under LinkedIn or on my email for Andre André at youth group. And again, they can reach out to me directly. I would love to help.

Trisha Stetzel: Fantastic. This has been such a great conversation. Andre, I think you’re going to have to come back later this year so we can expand on some of the things that we touched on just a little bit today. Would you be willing to do that?

Andre Ankri : I would love to. It will be a pleasure.

Trisha Stetzel: I would love that. Uh, all right, you guys, as always, I will put all of Andre’s contact information in the show notes. If you’re looking for him on LinkedIn, it’s a n d r a n k r I. That’s how you’ll find him on LinkedIn. Again. The links will be in the show notes. If you want to just point and click if you’re at your computer again. Andre, thank you for your time today. It has been my pleasure to host you.

Andre Ankri : Thank you very much for inviting me. Looking forward to meeting with you again. Have a great day.

Trisha Stetzel: Thank you. All right, guys, that’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that I had with Andre, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, veteran or Houston business leader ready to grow. Be sure to follow, rate and review the show. Of course, it helps us reach more bold business minds just like yours and your business. Your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.

BRX Pro Tip: Consistency is Better Than Perfection

March 2, 2026 by angishields

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BRX Pro Tip: Consistency is Better Than Perfection
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BRX Pro Tip: Consistency is Better Than Perfection

Stone Payton: And we’re back with Business RadioX Pro Tips, Stone Payton and Lee Kantor here with you. Lee, anyone who taps into our work or certainly listens to me, they know I am no fan of perfection. To me, consistency is so much more important. What’s your take?

Lee Kantor: I think that if you’re aiming for perfection, you’re setting yourself up to fail. I think consistency is the much better path. Repetitions are so much better than just waiting for perfect. And the only way to achieve or get close to perfection is by just doing the thing more often.

Lee Kantor: There was a story I read recently where a teacher who teaches pottery, they divided their class into two groups. She told one group, you’ll get an A if you produce 50 pounds of pots. And she told the other group, all you have to do is produce one pot, if it’s great, you’ll get an A. And then at the end of the class, they looked at all the pots that were created, and most of the great pots came from the group that produced the 50 pounds of pots, not the group that just did one.

Lee Kantor: Because it’s so much harder to get good at something if you’re only doing it one time. So keep that in mind, you need repetition, you need practice. That’s how you’re going to learn. That’s how you’re going to get better. That’s how you’re going to know what works and what doesn’t. That way you can kind of double down on what’s working and you’re just going to get better faster if you would just give yourself some grace and just consistently do the work. Do the thing over and over, you will get better over time.

Lee Kantor: So this week, pick one thing you’re going to do consistently. A weekly email, a daily blog post, a monthly webinar, whatever it is, just set a goal of good enough. That’s the standard, good enough. Decide what that minimum bar of quality is, and just do it over and over and over. That’s your goal is more. Don’t wait for perfect. Schedule it. Put it on your calendar as non-negotiable time, and just make sure you’re doing the thing.

Lee Kantor: And done consistently beats perfect eventually. So done now is better than perfect later. Start showing up. Keep showing up. Keep doing the thing.

Leadership Lessons from a Life of Challenge and Change

February 27, 2026 by angishields

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Leadership Lessons from a Life of Challenge and Change
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In this episode of High Velocity Radio, host Joshua Kornitsky interviews Kim Harrington, CEO of H10 Enterprises, about his remarkable journey from a challenging childhood and military service to leadership in business. Kim shares insights from his time in the Marine Corps and law enforcement, emphasizing resilience, discipline, and people-focused leadership. He discusses his transition into corporate training and consulting, highlighting the importance of empathy, communication, and supporting team members.

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Kim-HarringtonKim Harrington doesn’t just inform he transforms. Audiences leave with shifted perspectives, renewed purpose, and actionable strategies. His presentations create those rare “before and after” moments that change how people lead, work, and live.

Impact Through Service – Kim’s commitment to giving back is woven throughout his life’s work. He serves as Chair of the MADD Georgia/Alabama Advisory Council and Victims Impact Panel Speaker (40+ years), and Vice Chair of Movement School’s Governing Board.

He mentors youth in juvenile detention centers, teaches life skills to formerly incarcerated individuals, and supports Beat the Odds scholarship programs ensuring that young people facing adversity receive the same kind of transformational guidance that changed his own life.

Connect with Kim on LinkedIn and follow H10 Enterprises on Facebook.

Episode Highlights

  • Kim’s challenging early life and its impact on his leadership philosophy.
  • The transformative experience of joining the United States Marine Corps and the values learned.
  • The importance of teamwork, discipline, and attention to detail in military training.
  • Transitioning from military service to a career in law enforcement and the lessons learned.
  • The challenges faced during career transitions, including moving to a new state and job insecurity.
  • Founding H10 Enterprises and focusing on training and development for organizations.
  • The significance of leadership traits instilled in the Marine Corps and their application in civilian life.
  • The importance of understanding employee motivations and tailoring leadership approaches accordingly.
  • The role of effective communication and operational systems in successful organizations.
  • The perception of sales as a noble profession and the importance of fulfilling customer needs.

About Your Host

BRX-HS-JKJoshua Kornitsky is a fourth-generation entrepreneur with deep roots in technology and a track record of solving real business problems. Now, as a Professional EOS Implementer, he helps leadership teams align, create clarity, and build accountability.

He grew up in the world of small business, cut his teeth in technology and leadership, and built a path around solving complex problems with simple, effective tools. Joshua brings a practical approach to leadership, growth, and getting things done.

As a host on Cherokee Business Radio, Joshua brings his curiosity and coaching mindset to the mic, drawing out the stories, struggles, and strategies of local business leaders. It’s not just about interviews—it’s about helping the business community learn from each other, grow stronger together, and keep moving forward.

Connect with Joshua on LinkedIn.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to High Velocity Radio. My name is Joshua Kornitsky. I am a professional EOS implementer and your host here today, and I’ve got an incredible guest here with me in the studio. My guest is Kim Harrington. Kim’s a leadership professional and CEO and founder of H10 Enterprises. His perspective on leadership is shaped by the environments where accountability matters and the decisions carry real consequences. Kim brings a practical, people centered approach to developing leaders at every level, and his work emphasizes clarity, clarity, pardon me service, and personal ownership. Welcome, Kim. It’s truly a joy to have you here, and I can’t wait to learn more about how you help people.

Kim Harrington: Yeah, man. Listen, thanks for having me, I appreciate it. The weather that we’re dealing with right now is a little suspect. However, we’re in the South. We’re in Atlanta, so just wait.

Joshua Kornitsky: Just wait.

Kim Harrington: Time. Wait. Three days will change anyway.

Joshua Kornitsky: Would you slide the mic just a little bit closer to you just to make sure we we get your voice? Thank you. So, um, let’s begin at the beginning. Tell tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to the place where you’re able to make this type of an impact.

Kim Harrington: Wow, I love that question. So up until 2005, I would not have shared this information with anyone.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And so, um, I was I was actually born to a heroin addicted mother.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And a career criminal father.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: So by the time I was born, my father had already spent half his life in prison.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.

Kim Harrington: And because of that, I was raised in five foster homes and three group homes in New York City. And so I believe that all of us as leaders, we bring a unique perspective based on our belief window that we’re looking through. A guy named Hyrum Smith would talk about the belief window, and it’s basically how you’ve gone through your life.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And so those formative years dealing with abandonment, neglect, people being mean to you, not supporting you has been a true driver in my life. And obviously, there were people periodically that made a significant difference, teachers and mentors that did pour into me that I do appreciate and remember those vivid moments in time.

Joshua Kornitsky: And it must. But it had to have been a hard way to grow up.

Kim Harrington: Oh, 100%, 100%. But you know, when you’re when you’re in the blender and it’s on and you’re moving around, right? You don’t notice it as much until you get out of the blender.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fair enough.

Kim Harrington: Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: You don’t know how hard it is because you have nothing to compare it to. It’s your life.

Kim Harrington: There you go. It’s your life. Uh, and so I went in the Marine Corps when I was 17. Uh, so, uh, this was 1978.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And so that’s only three years removed from the end of the Vietnam War.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yep.

Kim Harrington: And so there weren’t long lines at the recruiting stations?

Joshua Kornitsky: No, I imagine not.

Kim Harrington: There you go. In fact, it was the reverse of that, where people, you know, our military was treated much different back then, much different in shameful ways. Uh, because, uh, any anybody that’s in the military or served in the military after January of 1973, post conscription, did it on a voluntary basis. So it wasn’t mandatory that people served and there was no draft.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And so you think about the sacrifice of those men and women that served in the military post conscription.

Joshua Kornitsky: All the way to now.

Kim Harrington: All the way till now, and their families, because the families are involved in this as well. So the I would just say the the best decision Joshua ever made in my entire life was enlisting in the United States Marine Corps. The Marine Corps took me from a life of no direction to a life of absolute direction. It taught me how to be a man, how to stand tall, be proud, honor, integrity, loyalty, all those things. And to more than that, it took me from a place of being by myself. Feeling like I was on an island to being part of something bigger than myself. Being part of a team with the ultimate goal of accomplishing the mission regardless of race, creed, color didn’t matter about anything other than the mission.

Joshua Kornitsky: So I want to ask you about that. And first, of course, thank you for your service. But the part of that that’s a mystery to those of us who have never been in the military. Right. They use your words. They made you into a man. They taught you the discipline. They taught you how to make sure that the mission gets completed. And and I presume that in a post-military career, the mission still is, whatever the current focus is. So how does that happen? Because it can’t. You know, most of us, I’m sorry to say, have our particularly our view of the military, but specifically the Marines. You know, there’s a handful of movies that tell us how Marines are made. Um, and while I’m sure there may be some elements of truth. Uh, because after all, Arlie Emery was a marine drill sergeant, and he got that job as he was the advisor to the actor. And the actor was so bad he got the job. 100% Full Metal Jacket. Yeah, good for him. He made a career out of it. You know, most of us probably have a pretty convoluted understanding of what that looks like. So can you help somebody from the outside of that universe understand what, at a high level that transition looks like? How do you even find that path?

Kim Harrington: Yeah. So it’s that’s a fantastic question, by the way, and I’ll share with you why I think that’s a fantastic question. So I never had the intention of going in the military. It just it kind of happened. Uh, I was walking out of a McDonald’s on Jamaica Avenue in Queens.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: Uh, the the f train was passing by above. And if you’ve ever been under an elevated train before, it is significant. It rattles your body. You can’t hear anything. And at that same time, I was passing by a glass door and there was a gold seal on it, said Armed Forces of the United States of America.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And something simply just drew me to that door, and I opened it, and I went in there. I eventually made it through the Army recruiter, the Navy recruiter, the Air Force recruiter, and ended up in the doorway of the Marine Corps recruiter. And his words to me were, come on in, young man. It’s okay. And then he put that video in. It says, are you up for the challenge? Are you up to being a marine? And it really showed and displayed something that was completely foreign to me.

Joshua Kornitsky: I can only imagine completely foreign.

Kim Harrington: The only, I would say the only consistent team type of event or organization was Little League baseball.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: Little league play little league baseball.

Joshua Kornitsky: Little gap between Little League and the Marine Corps. I’m guessing.

Kim Harrington: 100%. 100%. But, um, I did I did take that step. I said, I am up for it. And then there’s a there’s a lot of stories that go along with this. But I was 17, I wasn’t 18.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you couldn’t actually join?

Kim Harrington: I couldn’t actually join. He said back then, I don’t know if they still do it or not, but he said, you have to have a parent sign for you. And I said, no problem. And I’m thinking my foster parent, right. And he said, no, you need a biological parent. And I said, well, that’s not going to happen.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And he said, what’s her name? And I said, Beverly Wheeler. He said, give me some time. And so this is 1978. We didn’t have any technology whatsoever. I mean, if you wanted to study something, you had to go to a library, right? And so no cell phones. Within one week, the phone rang at the house. He said, I found I found her, she said she’ll sign for you. So now, of course, now she’s signed for me. Now I’m on the bus going to boot camp, and I have no clue about anything that you just asked me about. What’s the difference between that transition from civilian life to military life?

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and even all joking aside, all the common references I just cited don’t yet exist.

Kim Harrington: There you go.

Joshua Kornitsky: You know, the Marines stormed the beach at Iwo Jima. There you go. Beyond that, you know, unless you had a military family, you probably didn’t know anything.

Kim Harrington: Nothing. And so the in the Marine Corps is so different and so unique. There is a reason for everything. There are 13 stars on every button. 13 original colonies.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: There are seven belt loops on every single pair of Marine Corps trousers. The seven seas. And so there’s a reason for the way your pants hit your shoe has to be at a certain angle. On every single Marine Corps uniform, there is attention to detail that is off the charts. The ribbons that you wear have to be an eighth of an inch above the top of your pocket. Okay, this is made up stuff. That stuff is made up because they want you to pay attention to detail. Because when they give you a coordinate, if it’s 75 degrees, they want it to be 75 degrees, not 74 and not 76. Right. Because you have to be accurate. And so in the in boot camp, I was a complete follower as you think about this, as a 17 year old, I’m not 25 and there were some older people there, but I’m 17 and I don’t even know who I am at this point. And so I’m a complete follower. You follow instructions, you follow directions, and you make the best of your situation. And there were a lot of people that obviously wanted to give up while they were in there. But the drill instructors, although they were, um, like Full Metal Jacket, right? They were there to help support you and build you up after they break you down and to create those, those fighting machines basically is what we are is a marine, right? And so I would say the the main thing about the military is specifically the Marine Corps, is that it gives you so much courage, so much you have so much pride in yourself and your your fellow Marines that you will go through the fire for them without hesitation.

Joshua Kornitsky: So it’s it’s not just confidence, it’s bonding. It’s it’s and and does that translate to today? If you meet someone who was a marine you still have that connection.

Kim Harrington: So Joshua, listen, there’s this once again unique thing about the Marine Corps. If you find out someone is a marine, it’s like you’ve known each other your entire life. And my wife served in the army, so it does not happen with any other branch of the military, but with the Marine Corps. You find someone, find out someone’s a marine. The first thing you’re going to say is Semper fi, devil dog. So Semper Fi means always faithful, and Devil Dog is just kind of a nickname for Marines. Okay, there’s Devil Dog, there’s Leatherneck, there’s Jarhead.

Joshua Kornitsky: But typically I’ve heard them all. There you go.

Kim Harrington: And but when she when you I. This could be a marine from, uh, I could talk to a marine from the Korean War.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And I served this. There was no conflicts in the world when I served. There was Grenada, and there was the, uh, the hostage crisis in Iran. That’s it. So. But I can talk to someone from the Korean War. I could talk to someone from Iraq or Iran. And immediately there’s a brotherhood or a sisterhood between Marines. Okay. That is. That is unlike any other branch in the world.

Joshua Kornitsky: So let’s go back. You’re 17, maybe 18 now, right? Uh, first of all, how long were you in active duty?

Kim Harrington: Six years.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. So you were there. You were there till you were the literal definition of a man, 100%. Um, you get through boot camp, what happens? You’re. When? When you graduate.

Kim Harrington: So. So in all the military branches, you take an Asvab test. It’s an aptitude test before you get in there. Based on your scores, you are going to probably get placement in a certain military occupational specialty based on your scores. My scores were low, so I was a I was an infantryman. Every single marine is an infantryman. I don’t care if you’re a four star general or a buck private. You all go into it. You’re a rifleman. So my MOS, upon graduating from boot camp was a machine gunner.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: So the life expectancy for a machine gunner?

Joshua Kornitsky: Probably not great. No.

Kim Harrington: So when you hit the beach and you’re a machine gunner, your life expectancy is seven seconds or less. The only person that they target before that is the radioman, where they have a life expectancy of two seconds. So you you you graduate from boot camp, then you go to your, your infantry training school. My specialty was a machine gun. So I learned how to shoot an M60 machine gun. I don’t believe they have those anymore. But you learn how to do every single thing possible with the nomenclature of a machine gun, how to break it down, how to put it together blindfolded, how to do it with one hand, your off hand, and how to do it with the other hand. Uh, how to understand how to shoot the weapon. And when you’re a machine gunner, you’re in a weapons platoon. When you’re a weapons platoon, you have teams. So when you’re the machine gunner, you have other people. You have an ammo bearer.

Joshua Kornitsky: That are supporting the role.

Kim Harrington: You’re supporting my.

Joshua Kornitsky: Role. Gotcha.

Kim Harrington: And so if the machine gun weighs 29 pounds, 29 pounds is nothing. If you’re going a mile but 29 pounds, going 25 miles is super heavy. Now imagine being an ammo bearer, and you have to carry those cans of ammunition, which weighs a whole lot more than 29 pounds. So there’s it’s just a team effort. There’s there’s other things with the machine gun that takes a team effort. If once you shoot a certain amount of rounds out of an M60 machine gun, The barrel is literally on fire, so it has to cool down. But you have your team member with an asbestos glove. They’ll take it off so they don’t get burned, and they’ll put another barrel on.

Joshua Kornitsky: While.

Kim Harrington: You’re rotating. You’re going, you’re not stopping because you know, my barrel is off. I got to take a break. You know, everything is related to combat. And so the one thing that I, I would say that’s super different in the military than the civilian world is called the civilian world, is that camaraderie and teamwork. There is it is unmatched in especially the Marine Corps. It is unmatched, unrivaled. And I don’t believe I’m not. You never say never. Never say always. I don’t believe it can be replicated in a civilian world.

Joshua Kornitsky: It, uh, rather than argue because no one can know for sure. To your to your point, um, I understand exactly what you mean by that because for for Literally comparison’s sake. The expression tends to be, you know, having gone through combat together. Right. That’s that’s the common nomenclature for explaining a bonding situation. Trial by fire. Well, that fire is probably not a fire pit. Right. So. So it’s become our standard. So. So you emerged from this life and what happened to you?

Kim Harrington: So, uh, so once you reach a certain reach a certain point in the Marine Corps, um, there’s once again, like, just much, much like any company out here, when people change companies or change roles, right? There are things that happen in the military that will either keep you in there or kind of say, hey, maybe it’s time to look somewhere else.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And so my, my changing point was that, uh, I wanted to be a drill instructor.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you’re looking for the easy way out? Yeah.

Kim Harrington: But I, I right. I was the model marine.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, it’s a desire to. To help. Really? I mean, all, all stereotype of that role aside, that role, as you yourself said, is a supporting role to make better Marines. Yes, yes. That’s a pretty, pretty good aspiration.

Kim Harrington: Oh my God. And your drill instructors are you’ll remember for the rest of your life, first of all. But they are the most squared away knowledgeable people on the planet to you when you’re going through that, they are your mother or your father. They’re looking out for your health, your well-being. They are guiding you through the process all the way from the very beginning until the very end. And you know, they have your best interests at heart. And it is super hard. They have an Fu file where they they mess with you for no reason whatsoever just to see how you respond. Do you elevate or do you crumble? Right. One of the one of the building soldiers.

Joshua Kornitsky: You kind of need to know that.

Kim Harrington: Absolutely. One of the the things that, uh, that bothered me the most was something as, as innocuous as them saying two sheets and a blanket get online. And all that meant was you’re going to strip down your rack, you’re going to hold two sheets and a blanket with your pillowcase in your mouth. Everybody’s online and they say, you’ve got two minutes to make your racks move. That’s not a lot of time. And you’re talking about making your rack with a six inch fold and all the other things. Box corners is always going to be someone slow, always. And they’re going to say, oh, I see we’re not finished. And they would do this for hours. Not I’m not talking about 20 minutes, but for a couple of hours you would have to get to. And you know, by the time you’re done, you’re looking at that slow person like, hey, man. And they want you to do that. They’re encouraging you to be a unit and you’re going to be only as good as the weakest link, and you have to lift them up. And that’s what it’s all about.

Joshua Kornitsky: So how did you. Well, so you. So when you made the decision, uh, did you become a drill sergeant?

Kim Harrington: I did not.

Joshua Kornitsky: You did not.

Kim Harrington: So, uh, they said that I had to spend more time in my primary mos. So my first couple of years, I was on barracks duty in Yokosuka, Japan. Okay. So if you talk to any marine, they’re going to say barracks duty is pretty cake. It’s. You’re an MP basically somewhere. And I was an MP on a Navy base. There were 60 Marines on a basically as the command of the seventh fleet. Okay. The Navy, 60 Marines on a base full of sailors. And so, uh, it is it is easy duty, but it is hard duty because you’re a military policeman and you’re dealing with the adverse conditions of everybody. Right. Uh, and so I did that for two years. Then I was a machine gunner for a year, and then I put in for the drill field, and they said I had only spent a one year as a machine gunner, Enter. So I need to spend more time there. So basically what happened was I just got a new MOS and I worked at a military prison for three years.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: Now I can share with you this that the whole thing about not judging a book by its cover is 100% true. Because you really see people that have been fully adjudicated after they did their crime, and now they’re serving their sentence, their consequences. And if I were just to look at somebody, I couldn’t say what they did or what they didn’t do. Sure. And there were people in there with some horrific, horrific crimes that they committed. And I would have never guessed in a million years that they would have done that because of their demeanor, their disposition, the way they communicated. And you find out what they did and you’re like, oh my goodness.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And so that that helped me a great deal.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s a huge lesson.

Kim Harrington: Oh, my. Listen, Joshua, that helped me a great deal because once I got out the Marine Corps, I was a California Highway Patrol officer.

Joshua Kornitsky: That was that’s you’re jumping to the next phase of the story. But that’s where we’re headed. Yes. So now, you know, and it’s it’s funny, you mentioned, uh, I, I’m involved with a leadership committee in Bartow County, and I know, uh, Chief Jody Matthews, the chief of the Euharlee Police Department, and as part of the the, um, committee that I was on, we got to see the police simulation that they use. Yes. Uh, one of many. And one of the scenes that that the officers go through is just this helpless woman who just needs your help because somebody took her whatever. And it’s a very interesting thing as an outsider to observe, because as soon as you turn, she kills you.

Kim Harrington: Of course.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, but to all normal, uh, eyes, this was a person in need and a person asking you for help. Right. So now I understand exactly why that would tie in, where you learn not to judge that book by its cover. So? So now you’re in California and you’re a highway patrolman?

Kim Harrington: Yes.

Joshua Kornitsky: Where do we go from here?

Kim Harrington: Well, so you, um, when you’re in a military, first of all, it’s almost a natural transition to go in some type of law enforcement. Law enforcement? Sure. It just is.

Joshua Kornitsky: Especially because you’re disciplined.

Kim Harrington: And plus, if you have, like, I was an MP for two years and I worked in a prison for three years. So it’s almost natural. And so I applied at three different departments, uh, Orange County Sheriff’s Department, LAPD and the California Highway Patrol. And I got accepted at all three.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, wow.

Kim Harrington: Uh, but then I had a conversation with someone, and they said, hey, man, do you want to be chasing someone down in an alley when you’re such and such age? I’m like, oh, I don’t know about that. So I felt that the California Highway Patrol would be best suited for me and my skill set.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and based on the timing, chips should have been very popular.

Kim Harrington: It was very popular. I was a chocolate chip. And so but the the training also those three departments have robust, fantastic training. Most departments if you, if you really, um, did a survey, um, uh, Woodstock PD or anybody else like that, they don’t have a robust academy that they may attend. A lot of times. They may go through community college and take some courses, and then they’ll have some type of, uh, academy training, but it’s not extensive. So the California Highway Patrol training is a live in, 21 week program.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow. So you got to go to a different boot camp.

Kim Harrington: Got to go to a different boot camp, and the attrition rate 50%.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.

Kim Harrington: Which is super high there. There are very a lot of challenges there that a lot of people don’t know about. But the first thing is that, uh, the attrition rate was 50%. We started with 140 cadets and we graduated 70. You? You have an opportunity. There’s tests all the time. You’re basically cramming in. I would say two years worth of an education into those six months. Five and a half months. So there’s a lot of exams. After you get the education and so you have an opportunity to take a test. If you fail it and you do not pass it on the retake, you’re gone. The minimum score to pass it is 70.

Joshua Kornitsky: If you take it high standard.

Kim Harrington: High.

Joshua Kornitsky: Standard but high. The outcome is the best of the best.

Kim Harrington: Absolutely, absolutely. And the other part of that is you can fail two exams. Retake them, pass them. You’re still good. If you fail a third one, you’re gone.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And so there’s a very high standard. There’s a there’s daily PT physical.

Joshua Kornitsky: That must have did it appeal to you. Because it sounds like coming from where you were coming from, you were used to maintaining a standard.

Kim Harrington: Yes. However, there’s always wake up calls in life. Sure. And that very first exam I took, I got a 71. And I did see other people fail the exam. And I saw other people fail the exam and not pass the retake. And they were gone. And I’m thinking to myself, I can’t be gone. This is everything I have right now. I’ve put everything in here so I cannot fail at this. And so it was a wake up call, which was a great wake up call.

Joshua Kornitsky: Better early than late.

Kim Harrington: Better early than late.

Joshua Kornitsky: So obviously, you must have made it through the Academy.

Kim Harrington: I did.

Joshua Kornitsky: And how long did you stay with the California Highway Patrol?

Kim Harrington: 16 years.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, wow.

Kim Harrington: So. And I retired from an injury, so I was. I would have still stayed there. And so. So 16 years of the academies in West Sacramento, in California. Then you have your first duty station, and you have a choice. There’s a list and you put in for it. And then based on everything that’s involved there. You’ll then basically go where they send you, right? And so my first duty station was Santa Cruz, California. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Santa Cruz.

Joshua Kornitsky: I’m not.

Kim Harrington: That’s why I’m so Santa Cruz is a beautiful area of California. It is 90 miles south of San Francisco on the coast.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, okay.

Kim Harrington: It is about 35 miles north of Monterey, California. And it’s probably 35 miles over the hill from San Jose, California. So this is a very this is an affluent area. It’s a beautiful area. But I was young, so 23 years old as a California Highway Patrol officer, which was was a benefit. But it was also kind of a drawback because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. Still, you’re young, you don’t know that you’re 23 and you’re doing a job. You’re enforcing the laws of the state of California. You are you’re part of an allied community, which means that we are supporting the sheriff’s department, the police departments, other governmental agencies. They’re supporting us. This is a Santa Cruz County is the second smallest county in California.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you must have been bored.

Kim Harrington: Uh, no, I wasn’t bored. But the the this not the activity of a city like San Francisco or Los Angeles or San Diego, but there’s always activity. Everywhere you go. People say, well, there can’t be a possibly be a bad. There’s a bad area everywhere that you go, even here in Woodstock.

Joshua Kornitsky: There are bad people that make the area. Absolutely.

Kim Harrington: And there’s alcohol everywhere.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’ll.

Kim Harrington: Do it. You think about, you think about people being under the influence and making decisions that they would not normally make if they were sober, right?

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, Lord knows no one ever makes a bad decision. Certainly not when alcohol is in the picture.

Kim Harrington: That’s right.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, so 16 years. And were you injured in the line of duty, or is that something you will talk about?

Kim Harrington: Okay, I’m an open book. So, Um, I had been injured several times on the job, but the last incident that did me in was a collision.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And most people in the highway patrol, you’re exposed to extreme speeds with cars. Just. I mean, if you really think about it from a fundamental point of view, let’s say that someone is going 80 miles an hour and they just zoom by me. How fast do I have to go to catch up to them to initiate an enforcement stop?

Joshua Kornitsky: Right. There’s an acceleration curve where you’ve got to be going about 110 to get there.

Kim Harrington: That’s exactly right. The the roads that we travel on are not racetracks, which means they’re not designed like a racetrack. I mean, if there’s not going to be a pebble on a racetrack, they’re going to make sure everything’s removed from the racetrack because it’s so safe. There are roads in our country that the I call it the Superelevation is going the wrong way. If I’m trying to make a turn to the left and it’s leaning that way, That’s not good, right? But there are roads designed like that for whatever reason, or that’s the end result.

Joshua Kornitsky: Drainage or whatever.

Kim Harrington: Exactly. Right. And so it’s you have to be super familiar with your environment if you are in that role. And so there’s a California, they call it the land of the pursuits. Uh, and 16 years, I would say on average, I would be in ten pursuits a year, a year.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s crazy.

Kim Harrington: It’s absolutely crazy. There’s some people that will go their whole career without being in one pursuit in different departments.

Joshua Kornitsky: And you had 150 of them, at least.

Kim Harrington: And there are times where you are the passenger in the car during a pursuit, or you’re the driver, and once again, you are relying on the other person to do everything possible to achieve the goals. I’m relying on the person driving the car that they’ve gone through, the same training that I’ve gone through, and they’re going to be diligent, following all the rules that we follow to make sure we stay safe, I stay safe. Right.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s crazy. So obviously there was an accident of some sort.

Kim Harrington: There was an accident, and it was. It is just weird how people, um, the news, how they present information. So this was a we were back in another officer up. He was on a traffic stop. The vehicle came back as stolen. There were two people in the vehicle. They were making furtive movements. They were moving around. He called for some backup. So we’re flying there to back him up. The other officer said, hey, make sure you turn nighttime, so make sure you turn your lights off so you don’t silhouette me to the people in front.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And so we turn the lights off. But once you turn your lights off, your depth perception is off. We ended up. Long story short, my partner ended up running into the back of the other patrol car. Uh, and it was a devastating collision. My knees broke up the dashboard. Everything was just. There was a helicopter overhead. It was smoke up in the air. Wow. And the only memory I had up to that point was the other officer running by, and I saw highway patrol in the back of the other car and then collision. And then you’re like, come back to your senses. Uh, so the press said that a drunk driver had run into the back of a highway patrol car on the freeway, and I was like, that’s interesting. I was there, and I don’t remember that, but. Right. But so that that was the the last one it did me and I was I think I was 40 years old at the time. And my wife said, hey, how much longer are you going to do this? Because it’s not just about me like this getting in a car. It’s me putting on 20 pounds of equipment, me wearing a duty belt that has handcuffs in the back, and now I’m not sitting in a seat the same way I would if I didn’t have anything on. Right. So there’s a lot of factors involved with your safety and how are you going? I mean, am I going to run after somebody at this point where, you know, I had knee surgery and then my back was messed up? How safe can I be?

Joshua Kornitsky: Right. And never mind protecting and serving the people of the community. It’s just your ability at that point to function as a normal human being.

Kim Harrington: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: So what did you decide to do? You’re now you’ve you’ve been a marine. You’ve been a highway patrolman. You decided it was time to put your feet up. No.

Kim Harrington: Um, so the cool thing about California, and specifically the state is if you get injured on the job, they have something called 4800 time. And so 4800 time basically is you have a year to obtain vocational training for the next, whatever the next is.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s amazing.

Kim Harrington: It is amazing. Not only that, during that year you’re getting full pay tax free.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s got to be life changing.

Kim Harrington: Life changing. And so the first thing I did was I took a couple months off. And then I had a friend that worked at a gym, and he was he was just working at the gym. He was doing his thing. Very nice guy. He was even a bodybuilder at one point in time. Then all of a sudden, one day things switched for him and he went from working at the gym to driving an $80,000 car and wearing $800 suits.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And I said, dude, what happened? He said, I got my real estate license. And so he was a real estate agent, and he started to become successful. And he had been doing it back then. I just didn’t know it. And I’m the first thought was, if that guy can do it, I can do it. Right. So I got my real estate license. I used that time to get into real estate. And there are certain, um, organizations, certain industries, that there are companies that are really good at onboarding, really good at training. And so back then it was Coldwell Banker this Keller Williams. Now there’s companies that really invest in their people with training, which everybody should do. By the way.

Joshua Kornitsky: I agree.

Kim Harrington: As.

Joshua Kornitsky: A The leadership team trainer. I agree.

Kim Harrington: Yes. Uh, so I did that for a year in California, and then, um, our family dynamics, we needed to move out of California because one of my my kids needed a change of environment.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: Uh, so we we got on a computer. There was nothing keeping us in California. So we looked at, uh, areas with great schools and parent friendly. So there were two locations, believe it or not, after all that intense searching, two places came up. One was a location just north of Orlando.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: The other one was right here in Georgia in East Cobb. And so we said, well, Florida’s probably a little bit like California, so we’re going to pick Georgia. I didn’t know one person here. And I went from 100% commission job to 100% commission job.

Joshua Kornitsky: And roughly what year was this?

Kim Harrington: This was two months before September 11th.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, okay.

Kim Harrington: And so if you and I didn’t think much of it. Then we had sold our house. We had some proceeds. Not a lot. We had two vehicles, kids, a couple of dogs, and we caravan across the country to go to Georgia. And obviously, my wife and I already found a place here. But that’s a risk.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yes.

Kim Harrington: I didn’t I didn’t view it that way then. But years later, when I my best friend in the world, he talked to me about it, he said, man, I really admired you for that. And I’m like, what are you talking about? And then he really explained it to me that.

Joshua Kornitsky: It was just your next step in your.

Kim Harrington: It was just my next step.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you’re here now? You’re real estate agent? Yes. And I assume you have some measure of success.

Kim Harrington: Yes. However.

Joshua Kornitsky: Man, there always seems to be a however.

Kim Harrington: There’s always a however. So this is you think about 2001. Uh, and so this was the time of the.com era.

Joshua Kornitsky: I remember it well.

Kim Harrington: There you go. And then so now we have this thing called the.com bubble. And that bubble was bursting the entire time I was there during real estate and the it finally burst. If you were a real estate agent, life was not good for you. If you were a lender. Life was fantastic for some reason and it seems to be that way sometimes. But um, so the bubble finally burst. Uh, don’t spend your money before you have it.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yep.

Kim Harrington: Uh, however, my my wife made plans. We started putting things on credit cards, and I had two deals. Not close, so I was. I was in a bind because of that, um, extra debt that I wasn’t counting on. Uh, and at the same time, I was being recruited to work at a financial services firm, a company called home Bank here in the southeast, which was a phenomenal company. Uh, it is probably one of the top three companies I’ve ever worked for in my entire life.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s great.

Kim Harrington: Fantastic culture, great people. We were on fortune magazine’s best 100 companies to work for all four years. I was there in 2007 when we closed our doors. We were ranked 14th on fortune magazine’s best 100 Companies to Work For.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.

Kim Harrington: The only reason why we weren’t higher was because we didn’t have on site daycare and the CEO of the company, which is an amazing man, Pat flood, he said. If we can definitely have on site childcare here, but we can’t have it in Tennessee, we can’t have it in Florida, and we can’t have it in North Carolina. So if they can’t have it, then we’re just not going to have it as a company.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right. Okay. So again, you’ve now reinvented yourself for the fourth time. Yes. Uh, and that doesn’t count the little ones in between. That’s right. Right. So now, uh, you said they closed doors. What did you do next?

Kim Harrington: Well, it was a wake up call, too. And the reason why it was a wake up call was, uh, I was I was drinking the Kool-Aid. I literally thought I was going to retire there. I did, absolutely. I was.

Joshua Kornitsky: Until the rug got pulled out and it was great.

Kim Harrington: I was 46 years old at that time and I said, well, this is it. I mean, everything’s fantastic. I can be myself, I can flourish, I can advance, I can do great things here and help people at the same time. Because if you’re a lender, it’s all about helping people. It’s all about helping people. And the other thing about that is that you’re not offering anything tangible. They can’t touch it. They can’t feel it. It’s not like you’re selling a house, right? And so there’s a trust factor, and they really have to believe in you that you’re going to deliver on everything that you’re promising. And so the wake up call was this, um, I had just taken over a territory in Tampa, Florida, relocated my family down there, and I had been down there maybe six months, and everything was going fantastic, I thought. And then on August 7th of 2007, they said, hey, we’re closing our doors on August 10th.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.

Kim Harrington: So, three days notice. No one asked me, and I’m being dramatic. But no one asked me what I thought about it, right? And obviously it’s business, right? I get it, I understand. But I felt like I got slighted. I felt like they were, um. I felt like I was that kid again in New York City, that I was being marginalized.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and obviously they were seeing the writing on the wall because come 2008, the bottom dropped out.

Kim Harrington: Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: So what are you doing at that point?

Kim Harrington: Yes. And this is where.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you’re still in Tampa?

Kim Harrington: Still in Tampa. And this is where life really changed for me. And I would say in a positive way, too. And I’ve had a lot of things happen along the years that that have been great. I’ve had some obviously challenges like everybody else.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.

Kim Harrington: But this one thing said, hey, well, I got a family, I got to do what I got to do, and I wasn’t going to get a job with another mortgage company because everybody was suffering.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right?

Kim Harrington: And so I ended up doing basically freelance contract work for training and development companies.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Kim Harrington: And so this is where H10 enterprises was founded in 2008. But I would work for training and development companies. And I would um, I would call on large companies, midsize companies, small companies, get them excited about having me come in and do an assessment on their sales or service teams to see if we can increase costs. Uh, I mean, excuse me, increase profit or decrease costs.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And get people on the same sheet of music to make sure that everybody’s productive and successful in the company. And the sweet spot were call centers. I would say 90% of these were call centers. And so if I was able to to get on site, I had secured the business 75% of the time.

Joshua Kornitsky: Wow.

Kim Harrington: 75% of the time.

Joshua Kornitsky: It’s a hell of a closing.

Kim Harrington: It is a hell of a closing rate. But the fact of the matter is, and I’m not trying to be crass or anything, but most people do not know how to sell as a professional.

Joshua Kornitsky: I would absolutely agree with that statement. Yes, it’s true. And people have uh, and I see this quite often. People are embarrassed to ask for money for their goods or services. Yes. And I grew up in the car business. I don’t have that affliction. There you go. Uh, but I completely agree with you. Now, I have to ask at this point, because now you’re interacting with various organizations and different teams. Does your military experience come into play here? Is there?

Kim Harrington: Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: Is there anything in your background that helps you make an impact in this space?

Kim Harrington: Yes. So in the Marine Corps, first of all, the Marine Corps is a breeding ground for leaders.

Joshua Kornitsky: I believe that.

Kim Harrington: There are 14 leadership traits inherent to every single United States Marine, whether you are a buck private or a four star general. 1414 everyone knows him. And so there’s a judgment justice, decisiveness, integrity, dependability, tact, initiative, enthusiasm, bearing the way you carry yourself, unselfishness, courage, knowledge, loyalty and endurance.

Joshua Kornitsky: There’s got to be an acronym in there.

Kim Harrington: Jj did tie buckle.

Joshua Kornitsky: Is that how you remember it?

Kim Harrington: That’s how you remember it.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And so I mean, those are all incredibly admirable traits.

Kim Harrington: And they’re portable. Obviously they’re useful in the military, but they’re also useful not only in your professional civilian life, but in your personal life. 100% in your personal life. And so the reason why the the leadership traits are there in the Marine Corps is because it’s next man up. If you really think about, um, combat situations, part of combat is that someone is probably not going to go home with you. Right. And if it’s a let’s say it’s a lieutenant, uh, the next person up, if the lieutenant’s gone, is probably going to be a sergeant.

Joshua Kornitsky: And they have to know what the standard is to step into.

Kim Harrington: Absolutely. There’s no on the job training to be a leader in a marine.

Joshua Kornitsky: A combat.

Kim Harrington: A combat situation is next man up. You’re going to get on the radio. You’re going to do whatever it is because you’re next man up. And so the the portable skills of the 14 leadership traits are, uh, just it’s who I am as a human being, first of all. And so the way I communicate on the phone, the way I secure business, the way I travel, the way I pack my bag, the way I show up at a job site, I’m going to be super squared away. I’m going to be very, very, uh, mindful of the way I communicate with the receptionist, the person keeping the place clean. Uh, all these people are super important to me in an authentic way, not in a hey, I better say hi to this person. No, I mean it honestly that this person is an integral part of that company. If I walked in that company and there was trash everywhere, what would be my impression of the company? Trash. Trash. If I walk in there and I can’t understand what the receptionist is saying.

Joshua Kornitsky: At the very least, frustration.

Kim Harrington: It’s going to frustration. And so there’s there’s a there’s a reason for, um, everyone’s role. And if everyone in a company appreciates everyone’s participation as being part of the company, they flourish. It’s when it’s when people have a superiority complex that there are challenges. And it could be leadership. It could be the, um, the top salespeople. It could literally be anybody. It could be the person if they have a cafeteria serving the food and they think it’s their kitchen and their food and you’re going to do it and but they’re impacting other people. Uh, so I would want everybody to be mindful of that. But so when I show up to a job site, I’m there to learn. So of course you conduct effective discovery leading up to it. But even when you’re there, I want to be a fly on the wall. I’m going to ask questions. I’m going to meet with leadership and say, I’m here. Where do you want me to go?

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: I’m going to introduce myself to the person. I’m saying I’m invisible. I’m not going to ask you any questions. I’m just going to sit here if that’s okay. And that’s really the the gist of it is that I’m obtaining information. I’m getting data so I can put it in a proposal and I might say, hey, listen, you guys are doing everything great. And and that’s it. More likely than not, I’m going to say, hey, there’s areas where there’s an opportunity for improvement.

Joshua Kornitsky: And that’s it. And I think that’s an important distinction. Right. It’s not that they’re doing something wrong, it’s that there’s always an area where there’s opportunity for improvement. Always. Yes. No matter how well run an organization is, there’s always a spot. In fact, you know, we we tell our clients that that our goal is Lose 100% achievement in in all of the strengths and all the categories. But we accept that 80% is reality because 100%, even if you achieve it, is not sustainable over the long haul for anybody or anything. And I think that’s a really important distinction. So in the work you’re doing now, obviously you’re still helping companies 100%. What. Well where does I’ll get the acronym wrong? I’m just going to.

Kim Harrington: Jj did tie buckle.

Joshua Kornitsky: Where where where does this fit today.

Kim Harrington: Well I would say that there are two that that jump out at me. And the one that really jumps out at me is dependability. Because, you know, you think about being credible. You have to be being credible means that I understand you. I understand you as a CEO. I understand you as an EVP of sales. I understand you, uh, your operational, uh, view of everyone in the company. And I understand your competition. I understand these things may have factors outside factors on your business, whether it’s current events or something else. Sure. So I understand. So I have to be credible with the information that I have that I’m going to share with them. Sales is sales by the way. And whether I’m selling a pen or I’m selling a mortgage, sales is sales. However, um, there are different, um, strategies, there are different processes in place, and the goal is to make them as effective as possible. Uh, part of being dependable is being on time. Uh, you know, we have this right here. I want to be at least ten minutes early. Right? I don’t want to show up at the time because that’s not on time.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right? Early is on time.

Kim Harrington: Early is on time.

Joshua Kornitsky: Vince Lombardi.

Kim Harrington: Vince Lombardi and just, uh, you know, having manners, uh, understanding that, um, my goal right now, my company, my goal is to help everyone reach their full potential.

Joshua Kornitsky: What are the types of organizations that you primarily work with?

Kim Harrington: So it doesn’t matter. I’ve worked with Hewlett Packard. I’ve worked with companies like Carlton Bates, which is out of little Rock, Arkansas, which they sell little widgets that I don’t know how they make money off of. I’ve worked with a company called Corbis. Corbis is a comparable to Getty Images. Okay, so they sell obviously sell images and things like that. So it really doesn’t matter the type of company, it matters the function of what I’m going to be there for. So I do I do keynote speeches, I do motivational speeches, but I also do the back end stuff where there’s a I have a two day workshop on communication skills, you know, so it’s really about, um, being becoming an effective communicator, right? Learning how to have a process of even structuring what you’re going to say If, for example, even me coming in here today, I have a general idea of what we’re going to talk about. So of course I’m going to prepare before I come in here. I’m not just going to come in here, and then you start it and wing it, and you start talking to me, asking me questions about NASA. And I’m like, I got nothing on that, right? So there’s always preparation if I sales is a beautiful, um, industry to be in a beautiful role to have, you can take care of your family if you’re doing it the right way. And what I mean by the right way is, uh, being in other centered person rather than a self-centered person. It’s not about what I’m going to get out of it. It’s is I’m going to ask you discovery questions. I’m going to identify an area where you have a need, and then I’m going to offer something if I have it that aligns with that need to help you. If if I don’t have something, my goal isn’t to say, well, we can’t work together. My goal is to say, well, listen, let me make a couple of phone calls. I have some somebody else that may be able to help you. Would you like an introduction?

Joshua Kornitsky: And and ultimately, you’re still leading with helping first. Right. And and do you, um, work with individuals one on one or are you primarily team based with the organizations?

Kim Harrington: Well, so I do work with people one on one. And typically it’s for a limited time only. I usually work with companies and it doesn’t matter if they’re small, mid-size or large. But I like the companies because I can put a roadmap out for. And I don’t want to, you know, you do it individually. You’re going to charge people a lot more money than.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, but you’ve got such a unique background and unique experiences that I imagine the type of guidance that you probably provide one on one. And it’s funny because I had this conversation earlier today. Um, confidence is a funny thing. Yes. And the. The best speaker in front of a crowd of a thousand is likely sweating through their clothes underneath their jacket. Right. Right. Whereas some other people can step onto that stage and talk to 10,000 people and and not shed a drop of sweat.

Kim Harrington: That’s right.

Joshua Kornitsky: But they neither one of them can share that outside of the group of advisers that they have. And I see that as a place where you probably, without asking names, can provide that type of confidential guidance because nobody wants to be known as the CEO or the VP without confidence.

Kim Harrington: That’s right.

Joshua Kornitsky: And it’s unfortunately going back to the book and its cover. That’s an example where we judge entirely harshly. If we think that a great leader lacks a core skill, we will immediately the company’s value will drop, people will lose confidence in it, and it’s nothing more than somebody stumbling through a bad speech.

Kim Harrington: Right. No, no. Yeah. So I have worked with people one on one. It’s I guess let me put it to you this way. My bulk of my business comes from organizations, and I do a one off, one on ones. But what I found, found doing that is that my target audience isn’t as robust as it is because you’re you’re still marketing. You’re doing all the things to generate business. So it’s I guess it’s a little bit easier to get business from larger organizations than it is one on one.

Joshua Kornitsky: 100%. But but what I have found is often in that group there’s someone that your story resonates with. And we we took a long trip. Thank you for sharing so much of your life to get here. But ultimately, this is what I wanted to talk about with you, was to better understand who you help and how you help. But I think the journey we took to get here. Tells everybody why you help. Yeah. And and why talking to you and getting guidance and, um, assistance from H10 enterprises is a worthwhile investment of time and resources because you have an incredible story backing you up. That’s all you. Yeah. Um, what is your favorite type of organization or organizational role to work within? Is it sales? Is it? You seem to have an affinity for it.

Kim Harrington: I do. So, um, so first of all, my my favorite audience are leaders. Okay. Um, and it doesn’t matter what industry. It doesn’t. They don’t even have to be in sales. Sure. But what I found with leaders is, and I’m sure you’ll agree, is that typically when they have a one on one or a power meeting with someone, it’s not structured. It’s especially if it’s sales. They say, hey, you know, your numbers are low. I’ve noticed this for the last couple of meetings we had. You’re going to need to bring your numbers up. So let’s work on that. And we’re going to meet again in next week or two weeks. And then that person will leave the room scratching their head saying, hey man, you’re my manager, help me. So, um, what I love doing with with leaders to say, hey, listen, let’s just peel the onion back. We need to get to know our people. We need to know whether there are independent thinkers. We need to know if their detractors. We need to know if they’re they’re strivers or achievers. And I’m going to allocate my time accordingly. The challenge with most leaders is they spend the bulk of their time with detractors. They spend the bulk of their time with people that are a rub.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Kim Harrington: And, you know, you know, we try to fix people. And if we have that fixing mode in our head like, hey, you know, I’m going to fix this guy, I’m going to make sure, well, I’m.

Joshua Kornitsky: 80% of your time is fixing the the moderate performer. That’s right. While the top performers are floundering because they get no support.

Kim Harrington: Not only that, they’re not feeling the love. And so there’s an opportunity for them to leave and go somewhere else. And so if you if you think about someone that has a high will level, but their skill is low. To me that’s where you spend the bulk of your time. Because I can teach you what you don’t know. I can’t teach you to care.

Joshua Kornitsky: No, and that’s actually a point that I find myself making more and more. Um, we cannot, in a business context, make someone give a crap. Either they’re wired for it or they’re not. To your point, capacity can be taught to some degree, but if you don’t get it and you don’t want it, there’s not really a magic pill that’s going to fix that.

Kim Harrington: No.

Joshua Kornitsky: And it’s time for everybody’s benefit for for you to find another place to be.

Kim Harrington: That’s that fork in the road conversation. Yeah. You know, and so I love working with leaders to get them to understand that their, their entire existence is to remove barriers to the success of their people, to lift them. Basically, look at yourself as an inverted organizational chart. You’re on the bottom, and you’re holding the weight of the organization on your shoulders. And your job is to help everybody get to where they need to get. And if they can do that, they’re going to really think about it as opposed to, well, I need to increase revenue, I need to decrease costs, I need to do this and doggone it, you better do it or that’s the challenge, right? And you think about EOS and putting those operating systems in place, helping organization function and a like a Swiss watch. Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well it goes back to, to a joke that’s so old. The first time I saw it was on a fax machine that the beatings will continue until morale improves. There you go. Right. If all you have to do is yell at him to get him to be productive, you might be thinking about it the wrong way. That’s right. If that’s your only solution, um. And it seems to me, Kim, that you have found a way to harness all of the raw material that went into forging you.

Kim Harrington: Yes.

Joshua Kornitsky: And, and and have really beat that into a pretty sharp sword.

Kim Harrington: Oh, yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: And it sounds like you love what you do.

Kim Harrington: I love what I do, and it’s really it really boils down to a process. It part of the process is. And it’s not brain surgery. Right. This is everything that we do is always going to be about people. Ai is fantastic. I use AI, it’s fantastic.

Joshua Kornitsky: Collaborative tool.

Kim Harrington: There you go. Uh, however, it’s always going to be about the people. And so I need to know how to communicate with people. Part of me knowing how to communicate with people is identifying their personality type. Are you super task oriented or your relational? I’m going to adapt and adjust my communication style to best suit you. If I’m trying to help you, I’m not going to treat everybody the same and be neutral. That’s just not how the world works. And it doesn’t mean that I’m going to become the other person, but.

Joshua Kornitsky: No, but you learn from them.

Kim Harrington: Of.

Joshua Kornitsky: Course, right?

Kim Harrington: If you. If I’m talking to someone that’s super task oriented, I’m not going to talk about little Jimmy at the soccer tournament, right? I’m not going to talk about the weather. It’s I’m really going to talk about the data, the details, because they care about results over relationships. Yeah. If I’m talking to Jim Carrey and all I’m talking about is data.

Joshua Kornitsky: He doesn’t care.

Kim Harrington: No. He’s like, man, don’t I get a kiss first? Yeah. And so I want to make sure I know who I’m talking to. And as long as I know that, then I can adapt my communication style to to benefit them. I can ask amazing discovery questions. Open ended, clarifying, checking questions to make sure I’m getting all the information I need in order to present my information. The very best light, because a company can have a special and they can do all this other stuff and say, if you sign up with us now, we’re going to. Well, I don’t need that. Why are you trying to sell me something I don’t need? And and think about it this way from a customer’s point of view. If I just say the word salesperson to people, just that word alone, right? Typically they’re going to lean towards a negative.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yep.

Kim Harrington: And they’re leaning towards a negative because of personal experiences. They’re leaning to. Have you ever seen a salesperson in a television show or a movie depicted in a positive light?

Joshua Kornitsky: Not without some considerable thought. Can I give you anything other than a no.

Kim Harrington: That’s right. And so then you have the the news media, you know, live at five. We have this pill, doctor, live at five. We’ve got this mechanic shop and they’re always talking about what someone’s doing wrong as opposed to what they’re doing right. And the gift of sales is that your your your your job, your role is to identify a need and fill the need with what you have. If you don’t have it, then you find somebody that that can fill it and that’s it.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right. So I want to ask one more question that occurred to me from what you just shared. Yes. And I don’t I want to ask it in an open way so that I’m not leading you to an answer.

Kim Harrington: Okay.

Joshua Kornitsky: Is it okay for a leader not to know what to do?

Kim Harrington: Yes.

Joshua Kornitsky: Why?

Kim Harrington: Because you have other resources. I’m not going to as a leader. I’m not going to know everything. But let me put it to you this way. Just everyone, whoever’s listening to this, think about when you started a new role at a company and you went to your first meeting and they were using acronyms, uh, they were saying.

Joshua Kornitsky: The bane of modern existence.

Kim Harrington: That’s right. And they were using acronyms. They were talking about all this other stuff and everything literally sounded French to you other than, hey, Kim, how you doing? Right. And so that is the beginning. However, over time, you’re going to get all that knowledge. And people are hired into leadership roles in companies that they have no clue about how the company runs or operates, but they’re hired because they’re a great sales leader. They’re hired because they’re a decent human being that can make a difference in an organization. The rest of the stuff, the X’s and O’s, they can learn. And so the other part of that is you have to rely on other people. If if I’m on an operations side, I’m going to make sure I have the tools for the other people to be successful. I don’t need to know how to sell anything. I just need to know how you sell it.

Joshua Kornitsky: Provide the keys to the success. Easier than trying to be all things to all people.

Kim Harrington: That’s right. I mean, think about how many leaders or people that own companies that, um, that they don’t have any social skills, but their company is super successful?

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure.

Kim Harrington: Well, because they have people in place that can do those things that they have a deficiency at.

Joshua Kornitsky: I think it was Bill gates who said that he always hires lazy people because they find the fastest way to get things done. And and mind you, his version of lazy people and other version of lazy people. Probably a pretty big gap. Big gap. Uh, but the concepts the same is you hire the right person, they’ll find the right way to get it done. That’s right. Kim, what’s the best way for people to get Ahold of you?

Kim Harrington: So, uh, best way to get in touch with me. Go to my website, Kim Harrington.

Joshua Kornitsky: Com, and we will share those links, please.

Kim Harrington: Kim Harrington. Com or you can, um, email me at info at H10 enterprises. Com.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fantastic.

Kim Harrington: My telephone number. My telephone number is (813) 830-3545. I know a lot of spam calls from that come from that area code, but it is my number, so I will make sure someone answers that phone.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fantastic. I can’t thank you enough. The time flew by and it was a great conversation and you’re fantastic teller of your story, but just stories in general. Uh, and I think that’s what resonates most with people.

Kim Harrington: Yeah, well thank you.

Joshua Kornitsky: Thank you so much for your time.

Kim Harrington: I appreciate you, Joshua.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, it’s my pleasure. So my guest today again has been Kim Harrington. He’s a leadership professional and he’s the CEO and founder of H10 enterprises. And I think as everybody heard, his perspective on leadership really is about accountability and that real consequences come from the decisions that are made. Um, we will share all of his links. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your insight. Um, my name is Joshua Kornitsky. I am a professional EOS implementer, and this has been a really amazing, uh, version and and episode of High Velocity Radio. Thank you so much, Kim. We’ll see you guys next time.

BRX Pro Tip: How to be a Better Teacher

February 27, 2026 by angishields

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Stone Payton: Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips, Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, I know in our work we find ourselves attempting to teach quite a bit, our studio partners, our clients, our community partners. What are some strategies and tactics to become a better teacher?

Lee Kantor: Well, here are some things that the better teachers do. Number one, they meet people where they are. They keep checking for understanding. They use examples and analogies. They let people practice and mess up in safe environments. So to do all those things, ask more questions than you answer. Instead of explaining everything, ask what do you think happens next? Why do you think we do it this way?

Lee Kantor: Make the person you’re teaching think through things. Make them have a deeper understanding of the why behind things. And then, give them the opportunity to teach it back. Let them teach somebody else, because a great way to learn something and to teach something is to allow that student to become the teacher. When they’re teaching it to somebody else, then you’ll see how much they understand. The better they can explain something to someone, that means that they have that depth of knowledge that you’re trying to transfer. So have them first explain it back to you in their own words, and then you’ll know if they got it or not. And then have them teach somebody else and watch them, and then you’ll see if they really understand what you’re explaining.

Lee Kantor: Always try to break, you know, big concepts into smaller chunks. Don’t try to teach everything at once. Do it incrementally. Pick one concept, make sure they got it, then move on to the next one. And the better you are at teaching, the stronger your team is going to become, and the less time you’re going to spend fixing their problems. And you’re going to have a stronger team, you’re going to have a better run organization when you have more people that kind of have that depth of knowledge that you have and that can explain it to others.

Lee Kantor: So, this is something that’s worth getting good at. So, invest some time in learning how to become a better teacher yourself.

BRX Pro Tip: Productive Mornings

February 26, 2026 by angishields

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Stone Payton: Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips, Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, what do you do to try to ensure that you’re going to have a productive morning?

Lee Kantor: I think the secret to productive mornings begin the night before. If you want to have a productive morning, you just can’t start thinking about it when the alarm goes off. You have to set yourself up for success the night before.

Lee Kantor: So, three things to do tonight before you go to bed. Number one, pick your top three priorities for tomorrow. Write them down so you know exactly what you’re attacking first thing in the morning.

Lee Kantor: Two, set out everything you need in order to execute those priorities. If you’re going to say I’m going to work out, then put your workout clothes. If you’re going to say you’re going to eat a healthy breakfast, then make sure that you got everything you need for the healthy breakfast. If it’s something about your work, make sure your workspace is ready to go. You want to remove all the friction or as much of the friction as possible from your morning routine, so you can just start. You don’t have to begin by setting yourself up. You want to just begin by beginning.

Lee Kantor: And number three, set a hard stop time for your distractions on your phone or on your screens, your iPad, or your laptop. Give yourself at least 30 minutes of wind down time so that you actually sleep well. Because the key to having a good night’s sleep is by setting yourself up for success in that regard, and that means turn off the screens and get yourself solid sleep. I think sleep is an underrated thing that people think they can just skimp on and get away with less and less. You have to have good quality sleep if you want to have a productive morning.

Lee Kantor: So, get organized. Protect your best energy for your best work. The night before is going to determine the morning, so set yourself up to win.

BRX Pro Tip: Ship Every Week

February 25, 2026 by angishields

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Stone Payton: And we’re back with Business RadioX Pro Tips, Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, I’ve come to regard it as a Lee Mantra, but it wouldn’t surprise me if you picked it up from one of the folks that you really try to follow and learn from, but you’ve said it more than a few times, ship every week.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think you got to get into a rhythm, especially if you’re an entrepreneur, especially if you are building a business that you have to ship every week and you have to measure your KPIs as you iterate. Too many people are waiting until everything is perfect before they put something out there, and I think that is just a fundamental mistake.

Lee Kantor: I think a better approach is to ship something every week, measure what happened. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It just has to be out there where people can see it, they can respond to it or not. And then, you can take action based on what you learn.

Lee Kantor: So number one, decide what you’re going to ship this week. Is it a piece of content? Is it a new offer? Is it an outreach campaign? Whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Just make sure it gets out there. Number two, pick one, two, three KPIs to measure. Are they going to be conversation started? Is it going to be response rate? Is it conversions? Is it engagement? It doesn’t matter what it is. Just get in the habit of doing this over and over. And then at the end of the week, look at your numbers, make one adjustment for next week.

Lee Kantor: And remember, as Stone always says, speed beats perfection. You need higher velocity. The faster you iterate, the faster you learn what actually works. And you can take that information and move forward in the next week. So, ship something this week.

Navigating Virtual Trust: Leveraging Emotional Intelligence for Business Growth

February 25, 2026 by angishields

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Lee Kantor and Stone Payton, along with coach James Castleberry, explore how business founders and coaches can build stronger virtual relationships. They discuss interpreting emotional intelligence assessments, overcoming challenges of trust in remote environments, and leveraging personal strengths. The team experiments with new onboarding strategies, emphasizing visibility, empathy, and real-time collaboration. James offers practical advice on fostering connection and psychological safety online. 

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James-CastleberryJames L. Castleberry is a retired U.S. military officer and the founder of Castleberry Coaching & Consulting and CEO of LeaderEI, a firm specializing in leadership development through emotional intelligence (EQ) strategies. With more than 25 years of leadership experience across the military, government, and private sectors, James helps organizations achieve measurable business results through customized coaching, training, and consulting solutions.

James is a recognized authority in the application of emotional intelligence in leadership, utilizing tools like EQ-i 2.0®, EQ360®, and MSCEIT® 2.0 to assess and develop emotionally intelligent leaders. In addition to serving executives and teams, he certifies HR professionals, consultants, and coaches to become EQ-i practitioners—building leadership pipelines focused on empathy, communication, and self-awareness.

In his conversation with Trisha, James reflected on his transition from military intelligence to executive coaching and discussed the critical role emotional intelligence plays in leading across generations and managing complex team dynamics. He highlighted the LeaderEI certification program, emphasizing how EQ can be learned and applied to improve leadership effectiveness, retention, and organizational culture. Known for his practical, research-backed, and people-first approach, James continues to impact leaders globally through in-person and virtual programs.

He holds certifications as a Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR), Certified Executive Coach, and Master EQ-i Trainer, and is a graduate of Harvard’s Leadership Coaching Strategies program. Based in Florida, James lives out his values of humility, service, and sustainable leadership impact.

Connect with James on LinkedIn.

Episode Highlights

  • Leadership clarity and emotional intelligence (EQ 20 assessment)
  • Leveraging personal strengths in business growth
  • Challenges of building trust and intimacy in virtual environments
  • Importance of visibility and personal storytelling in virtual communication
  • Current onboarding and interview processes for new partners
  • Experimenting with joint virtual sessions to enhance relationship building
  • Balancing optimism with skepticism in client interactions
  • Strategies for fostering enthusiasm and addressing concerns in conversations
  • Streamlining processes to avoid overwhelming prospects
  • Commitment to continuous learning and refining engagement strategies

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from our flagship studio in Atlanta, Georgia. This is scaling in public. The next 100 Business RadioX markets, featuring founders Lee Kantor and Stone Payton, along with some of America’s top coaches, helping them grow the network with real strategy, real lessons, and real accountability all shared in public. To learn more about the proven system that turns podcast interviews into a perpetual prospecting pipeline through generosity, not gimmicks, go to Burks Intercom and download the free Business RadioX playbook. Now here’s your host.

Stone Payton: Welcome to another exciting and informative edition of addition of scaling in public. Lee Kantor Stone Payton here with you. Please join me in welcoming to the session our coach today, James Castleberry. How are you man?

James Castleberry: Doing great Stone. And thank you. Thank you both for having me this afternoon.

Stone Payton: Well, it’s our pleasure. All right, man. Help us grow this thing.

James Castleberry: All right, so basically, what we do is, is help with clarity. Wherever that clarity may go, wherever that clarity may take us. Sometimes it’s an individual leader and and how they interact with their teams. Sometimes it’s helping a team understand where their challenges may be and their strengths may be. And then aligning, uh, what we can from those strengths and from those challenges to whatever their, uh, strategic goals are, what their missions are to help them move forward. And so, uh, with us, this is a little different than, than most of what we do. You guys have already had debriefs concerning the QE 2.0. That is the, um, the valid and reliable assessment that we use and the tool that I use to help teams and, and executives grow. And so, uh, I guess I would like to understand a little bit about what your impressions were of your results.

Stone Payton: Uh, well, I can go first on, on that one. I wasn’t terribly surprised at the the highs and the lows, the the outliers, if you will. And I gotta say, I think if my wife read the report and I think I may give her a chance to read it, I don’t know that she would be surprised, uh, either. So, you know, it’s all for me. It’s good to self-reflect. Think about that. I try to be self-aware, but what I’m really thirsty for is, okay if this is my nature or this is my behavior pattern. Where and when and how do I need to adapt, do some things differently that will that will help us grow this business. You know, better and faster. So I’m I’m thirsty for that. That next step with this.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I would agree with Stone in this regard. It was interesting to go through it. And it was uh, a lot of the results were things that I thought were, you know, pretty accurate. But then how do you take that next step of taking that information and that intelligence and making it work to help us achieve our goal of growing the network? Like, how can we, you know, amp up our strengths, either develop or hide our weaknesses? Uh, to help us get to the objective we have.

James Castleberry: Yeah. And so one of the things I do want to mention now, for those that are, um, are, um, accustomed to using B-level psychometrics is both Stone and Lee have consented to the use of this, uh, in coaching and, um, and so where we would normally keep this at a confidential level, they both, uh, have agreed to this and this, uh, scaling in public coaching forum. So I just wanted to make sure that that was out there so that our listeners understand that this is coming from a place of consent for their their mutual growth. And a.

Stone Payton: Good disclaimer. James, I don’t blame you. You don’t you don’t do a radio show out of everybody’s session.

James Castleberry: No, no, absolutely. Just just the opposite. Usually it’s one on one. Or if we’re talking about it in a group session, then everything is anonymous. And so, um, you know, these results are, are typically confidential. And then coaching sessions are typically confidential. And so this is uh, this is a little bit different forum that we’re using. And it’s the purpose uh, for you guys in scaling in public. And so based on your individual results and what you saw, um, as your strengths, how were you using those already to help you, uh, to scale the business?

Lee Kantor: I mean, I’ll take this first since, um, one of the outliers for me was, uh, interpersonal relationships. And this whole business was built and was created to shore up that side of my personality. I’m not a people person. Uh, I don’t get a lot of energy from, uh, being around people. I’m an introvert more than an extrovert. So I created this system and the Business RadioX platform to help myself, uh, have an easier path to meeting people and from maybe changing the frame of me seeking them out to them, wanting to be part of what I was doing. So the whole business is built basically on Probably the biggest outlier I had in the results of my assessment, which was interpersonal relationships.

James Castleberry: And how do you think that’s going for you, Lee? If that’s the whole reason that we’re into this and one of your reasons for it. Uh, what what steps have you made, uh, in improving this, that you’ve seen, uh, that, uh, that’s visible as a business result?

Lee Kantor: I mean, what has occurred as a business over the 20 years we’ve been doing this is that there has been people out there who have partnered with us and have, um, tried this on themselves and for a variety of reasons, not, uh, in fact, probably not. I would say the minority of them are introverts. The majority of the partners we have thus far are more extroverted, who see other ways to leverage the platform than what I initially did. But for me personally, I think that it has been validated that this is a great way to build more relationships faster with more of the right people. So from that standpoint, I think, um, it was it was doing exactly what I had set out to do.

James Castleberry: What do you still find challenging about it?

Lee Kantor: Um, what what is the it you’re referring to?

James Castleberry: Um, well, you you speak about being an introvert, and, uh, one of your other interviews, I, I heard, um, mention of. How do you get the same feeling in the studio that you can get virtually. And, you know, we deal this with, uh, with globalization. It’s one of my areas of study. And so we deal with this and and the way that people perceived virtually even their own emotional intelligence is a little bit different, because you can’t feel that, that same emotion research tells us we can feel emotions 6 to 10ft away. You can’t feel that as good virtually. So, um. What what are we doing? Uh, to be able to try to get that same feeling virtually out there in this platform that we, we otherwise might get if we’re in the studio in person.

Lee Kantor: Uh, that’s an area that we’re working on, is to try to create some sort of a virtual experience that can capture some of the magic that happens face to face in a studio. So that is an area that we haven’t figured out yet, and we’re working on to better create those that kind of level of intimacy and sharing and, um, the visceral feeling that occurs in a studio that just doesn’t occur as easily or as elegantly virtually.

James Castleberry: Yeah, I think there’s ways that you can do that. Most of that is wrapped around, um, uh uh, the, the the psychology of people feeling comfortable, uh, and and building that trust and understanding how you can build that trust. Um, virtually, I think.

Lee Kantor: So what are some examples? How how could you share some examples of ways that we might not be aware of or haven’t considered in order to build that level of intimacy and trust? Is there some things you’ve learned from doing your kind of work virtually, that maybe we could borrow and put into our playbook?

James Castleberry: Yeah, a lot of it is visibility, right? And we say, okay, we’re doing this virtually. Um, there is a difference in a meeting if people have their cameras on or if they don’t have their cameras on. And this can be challenging. But we read so much and we hear so much virtually from body language and people’s expressions and, and trying to understand, just like we would in person. We might not feel it the same way if we’re not in person, but, uh, that’s one, uh, method where we can really see it. I the advantage of being the intelligence field when I was in active duty. And so for years and years we had top secret, uh, teleconferences, and you could, uh, regardless of who you were talking to and how far away they were, um, you got a different feeling from that leader. Not not based on the typical things that we build trust on. Typically it’s consistency. It’s transparency. Um, but and professionalism, uh, all those things count too, in a virtual environment. But you can add to that in the way, um, that there’s you try to develop a personal connection and you keep that even if it’s virtually. And some of that’s understanding a little bit more about the people that you’re talking to. Uh, Stone, stone example of yours might be the the recent hunting trip that you talked about and just sharing a little bit. And you have to have your boundaries, but sharing a little bit of that personal background so that people can say, okay, he’s like me in this way, or he’s like me in that way, and that helps build those interpersonal relationships. Uh, it helps him understand that you have empathy. It helps them understand that if you do some of the same things, you might find some of the same things mutually satisfying. Um, and so, uh, for you, do you feel closer, even if it’s virtually, uh, stone, if you’re talking to someone online with, uh, if the camera is on, if the camera is off or if you relate a personal story.

Stone Payton: So would the camera on for me, like, uh, built into our core system anyway is often a pre-call to help someone get ready for a Business RadioX interview. And and of course, that’s the you know, the coaching version of that is, is a discovery call, which is one of the reasons this worked so well for coaches. But I have found in doing those pre calls that and I do some not with Cameron, like if I, if I’m out at the archery range and it’s a 430 afternoon call, I might not be on camera, but if I’m in the, in the office or in the local studio here, when you’re on camera, I can pick up on body signals. I think they can see my enthusiasm. So I think it does add a a layer of trust and does add to the dynamic more often than not. If, uh, if we’re on camera during those during those phone conversations. Yeah.

James Castleberry: Do y’all typically do those as a team together because they’re going to see you as a partnership taking this forward, do y’all typically do discovery calls together?

Stone Payton: Uh, no. Typically I’m doing the discovery calls okay.

Lee Kantor: But historically, before the pandemic, we would be together in person, right?

James Castleberry: Oh.

Lee Kantor: Virtual occurred beginning after the pandemic, when we had to go virtual when we no longer could meet in in the studio. We had to pivot to virtual. So that was the beginning of that of being on camera or not being on camera.

James Castleberry: So do you think there could be a difference? Uh, when you met in person, you both met in person instead? I think that’s what I’m hearing is that you both met in person, but, uh, most of the discovery calls now were done by, uh, Stone. Do you think there’s a difference in your comfort level and maybe a potential clients, um, comfort level with both of you? Um, when you participated together versus just a discovery call, being with one person.

Lee Kantor: Um, well, I, I do, I mean, I think it was more powerful when it was both of us together. Um, and I think it was more powerful in person, so. So, yeah, I agree that it was together was better than individually.

James Castleberry: So how how might you be able to maybe because this has been successful in the past, how might you be able to implement that, uh, to where, um, you, you can work toward? I’m not going to say it’s going to be the same as in the studio because you don’t feel that emotion, but, um, uh, could you see a way, uh, what might it look like if you were able to do those, uh, the same way, except. Except virtually now. So to hear from both of you.

Lee Kantor: At some point in the relationship, we do kind of join forces, but it hasn’t been on the initial call lately. I mean, how would you when do when do I typically get inserted into this stone?

Stone Payton: Um, more often than not. And again, this is with the scaling effort. As we’re talking to somebody. I’m just making a market up like San Diego. I might have that initial conversation with them, help them get prepared to come on a show. And then more often than not, there are some exceptions. Lee is the one that’s actually conducting the interview, so he’s building some rapport with them at that point. Um, although he’s probably not on camera during most of that, I suspect. And then, um, they schedule a follow up call to help them get the most out of their interview. And that’s usually with me. And then depending on the time of day and the day of the week, uh, you know, most of those would be on, uh, on camera. That’s the that’s the current methodology for trying to cultivate business and markets where we are not now at the local level, the way we’ve done it for 20 something years. It worked then, and it works now. I mean, that that recipe is, you know, locked and loaded. That’s a well baked process. It works. It always works. It never doesn’t work. But this going to markets where we don’t have physical representation yet and, um, trying to move a potential studio partner, uh, along that process. Um, we’re definitely struggling with that. And I think virtual is this virtual dynamic is is part of the challenge.

James Castleberry: Um.

Lee Kantor: So just to reiterate, the path right now is stone does the what we do some sort of outreach where the person agrees to come on a show? Stone does the initial kind of pre-interview. Uh, he’s usually on camera. He hands it off to me. I do the interview. That’s usually off camera. Then it goes back to stone. They agree to a follow up to see how best to leverage the content and how to get the most out of their interview experience. And that goes back to stone. And that’s in on camera interaction. And then from there, if it turned into, uh, a deeper conversation, whether they wanted to do this or not. And we could use Trisha as the example of how it could work then, because Trisha went through all of those steps, she I believe she had the pre-interview with Stone. She had the interview with me off camera. Then she went back with a post interview with Stone. And then at some point we all three, um, had an interaction and Trisha is usually on camera. So I would imagine she was on camera. I would imagine Stone was on camera. And to date Trisha and I have never been on. She’s been on camera, she has never seen me on camera.

James Castleberry: So I find this so fascinating that, uh, both Stone, you and Lee, you talk about how that engagement together was so very successful, uh, before Covid and then Covid changed the way that we all communicate. Um, so, uh, I wonder and, and some of coaching is experimenting to see if we can grow, if we can develop in certain areas. Um, could y’all see a way that if you went back to that methodology virtually that was so successful, uh, for you doing it together in the studio that it might have an impact?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I mean, we’re open to trying lots of things so that we’re definitely open to that. And what would be your recommendation of of when to insert both of us together into the process?

James Castleberry: Well, my recommendation, I guess, would be what’s worked for y’all in the past. And and Lee, we talked a little bit about, um, knowing success from the past. And Stone, we talked about some of your, uh, your strengths in communication and optimism and, um, and then um, and problem solving and so that there’s a reason that y’all work together. Uh, there’s a, there’s a reason that for so long, it worked together, even in the studio, it’s even more challenging. And we’ve acknowledged that it’s even more challenging communicating virtually. So rather than it be sequential being a new process that started out of Covid, would there be a possibility that combining it again, but doing it virtually might have the same impact?

Lee Kantor: I mean, we’re up for trying it virtually. I just don’t I’m having trouble figuring out how to do that. So I don’t have an answer on, um, Um. Do we do it together at every step? Do we do it together at a certain step? At one point, then it becomes together, um, because we’re no longer in the same place. So we’re all we’re at different points in our lives and with our efforts here. So. And before we would cut, both of us come into a studio physically together. And we haven’t done that in, I don’t even know how many years, seven years. It’s been over well over five years.

Stone Payton: Right.

Lee Kantor: Um, so I, I’m just having a hard time coming up with a system that does that in, uh. So that’s where I’m. I’m looking for what you your recommendations are on a way to even test it.

James Castleberry: Yeah. So so I think it would be. I think it would be no different. I think you would do the, the initial calls because there’s such value of you guys participating together, the the systematic thinking that you do. Uh, the problem solving that you do, Stone, and that combined interaction with a person, even for a discovery call, I think. And that’s no different than how they used to meet you in the studio first.

Lee Kantor: Well, it is different because that’s not how the process in the studio was in the studio. They would get invited to a show, then they would come into the studio to have the interview experience, and that was together. So they we didn’t have a pre-call in the studio. The the show was where we first met them so that they would come in and maybe a few minutes we’d do a little mic check and just get started. And then after that we would sometimes, uh, kind of organically. It would just lead to them having questions and then us being able to either answer them right there on the spot or schedule a follow up.

James Castleberry: Okay. No thank you. That’s helpful. So so stone drawn on your problem solving, seeing this and knowing that we’re facing kind of this virtual challenge right now in scaling and in scaling visibility will be important. Personal connection will be important. I had the opportunity to be a program manager for 100% remote AI company. So you had a lot of people in that company that were, uh, more introverted. They were coders. And then you had some that were in business development that were more extroverted, and they were outgoing. Uh, but they did have a kind of a battle rhythm schedule where we’d get together and we’d talk to folks and, and so I guess, I guess what I’m wondering is, um, in this virtual environment, how can we we use the strengths that you both have, uh, to look at this challenge of, of the same, uh, getting the same results out of our virtual meetings that you guys had in the, in the, in studio meetings.

Stone Payton: No, it’s a great set of questions. I will say that the the pre-call conducted by me individually certainly isn’t, um, keeping anybody from wanting to come on air. Um, and they would come on air even if we didn’t do the pre-call. But it is a marvelous relationship building moment. But there’s also this set of logistical questions or concerns about, oh, now, is Lee going to have to get involved in all the pre calls? But I’m wondering at this point of the conversation, can we kind of keep that in place. Stone has that pre call. Then they get the interview with Lee. But if once the conversation reaches the point where they are interested in hearing more about what we do, um, and and and even maybe even on the ones that just overtly express. Yeah. I’d like to at least get some input on how to get the most out of the interview that I did. So, you know, in that post interview call, if maybe a place to test this a little bit is once they get to a certain point in the process, bring Lee in and maybe even see if we can get Lee to come on camera, but at least bring him in to to that spot. That’s where my mind is at the moment.

James Castleberry: Yeah, I think I think that that leads to that, um, improving with the interpersonal communication. I think that it helps that visibility helps with trust. Um, that, that, uh, that maybe a little bit of personal connection, sharing a little bit of something. Um, you know, I didn’t learn about your family reunions or anything, stone, but I did find out a little bit about what you were doing, and I think that creates that that comfort level. And I think that builds a little psychological safety and trust. And so, um, in this, in the way that it’s being done sequentially. It sounds a little bit maybe like a job interview, right, where you’re screened by the HR person, and then you go to the the job interview and you meet with the hiring manager. Um, do you all think that there and you mentioned it a little bit stone, but do you think that there could be value? And I know that we have to, uh, conserve time. So maybe it’s a, a 15 to 30 minute call versus an hour call for, for both of y’all. But could there be value in y’all doing some of that together so that we can start working toward building that, that trust, that psychological safety, uh, in, in interpersonal relationships from the beginning?

Stone Payton: I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe I’m a little skeptical about it and a little reluctant to to jump on it with all fours just because of the time commitment, the dynamic. If I know I can get them with me and I can get them with Lee. And if I can adjust something about what we do when I’m with them and adjust something with them, when Lee’s with them and then and I guess it doesn’t completely bother me that it’s a little bit like a job interview if if what I’m doing is trying to bring them through a process and to some degree vet them as a candidate to be a studio partner. But I’m just so I’m a little reluctant and skeptical candidly, about getting Lee and I, both of us in the process all the way through. But I can see me doing something better and more in my conversation with them. Lee doing something better and more. Maybe when he does the interview, maybe he spends a little more time up front doing some of that rapport building, and then from there forward, if it’s someone we want, if it’s not someone we want to pursue as a studio partner, then I say put them through the regular process. But if it’s someone that we want to pursue as a studio partner, then, then maybe that call is definitely Leanne Stone with him. But maybe I’m being too resistant to your idea, I don’t know.

James Castleberry: No, no, no, Stone, I hear what you’re saying. And it’s about time management and and, uh, work life harmony. I totally get that. Um, but I also hear, uh, a little bit, uh, excitement about how, um, there may be ways to to make it a little bit more personal, to share a little bit more for for both y’all in other parts of the process that that might work. Um, Lee, can can you, uh, can you share a way that that that might be possible? Uh.

Lee Kantor: I don’t know. I’m the more we’re talking about it, I don’t see where the. I don’t think the problem thus far in the system, our system that we’re doing with Stone having the pre-call me doing the interview, stone having a post call that has Generated quite a few conversations with people of which none of them have have bought anything. So I’m very aware that it’s not working to the finish line, but I just can’t. I don’t know if the reason that’s the case is that because I’m not on camera with them? I mean, I’m not. I’m open to that might be a possibility and I’m willing to test that as a possibility, but I just don’t see thus far what we’ve been doing that that is the reason that they haven’t gone all the way to the finish line.

James Castleberry: Um, yeah. And I and I and I’m not saying that that is the reason I’m saying that. That’s one of the ways to build trust, right? I don’t want y’all to take that from that, y’all. Y’all have been successful. The challenge is getting to that that finish line. We’ve got these discovery calls from Stone afterwards. I’ve heard you say, uh, Lee and the other interviews that you want to get, uh, more knows the discovery calls are probably trying to figure out, um, you know, why we got the. No. And so I’m trying to help you all figure out a way that, um, we could use both your strengths and challenges that we learn in emotional intelligence, uh, to to try to get that close that you’re seeking.

Lee Kantor: Well, I mean, an area that I. That has come up that I think that I would like your opinion on as an EQ expert is that somebody mentioned to us that when, uh, when a potential buyer shares with us a level of enthusiasm and also skepticism, that we tend to focus more on the skepticism and less on the enthusiasm just because Stone and I are both from a sales and marketing background that we’re trying to, you know, eliminate objections and manage objections. So when we’re getting a combination of enthusiasm with skepticism, we have to be able to read those signals better and have better, um, a better way to move them more towards the enthusiasm side and maybe focus less on the skepticism side. So I’d like to get your thoughts on how to better read those signals and to deal with those signals to help move the prospect forward.

James Castleberry: Okay, so I think, I think this is one place where you think, uh, Lee, more systematically and, um, Stone’s going to come at this with a lot of positivity and problem solving, too. And so, um, you know, I would try to look at the trends that that you’re hearing in those calls and, and the direction that the call took. So do they talk to you about those, um, those things that they are in agreement on the things that they’re excited about? Um, and, and, and can those be used to help with those things that they’re skeptical about? And instead of diving right into the problem solving on what? Skeptical, um, are there ways that you can build on those things that are positive that might help them overcome the skepticism?

Stone Payton: We’re not on video, so you can’t see me grinning. But, um, in my in my as I continue to gray a little bit, I’m finally getting I’m finally learning that when Holly expresses my wife’s name is Holly, when she expresses frustration with something or something’s not quite going her way a what came out and was articulated as a strength. Optimism for me, obviously, apparently can really be a real weakness. So that combined with me jumping in and trying to solve the problem when all she really wants is somebody to shut up and listen, I’m thinking there’s probably some business application for some of that too, huh?

James Castleberry: No, no. Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, it’s sometimes it’s that Brene Brown helps us with a different sense of sympathy and empathy. And a lot of times, people that are low in empathy and they’re, they’re higher in optimism, optimism to the to the effect that may be impacting reality, testing that, um, we’ll find that they’re highly sympathetic. Oh, man, that’s really bad. Yeah. That’s bad. And then if you mix that with high problem solving, you want to go help them solve that problem when really they just kind of want to want you to sit there and feel it with them. And uh, and to kind of go through it with them a little bit, you know, rather than saying, uh oh, that’s pretty bad down there. Crawl down in the hole with them and sit a while, you know.

Stone Payton: Well, and those are my outliers, right. That was my most positive, highest score was optimism. And my lowest was empathy. And, um, and so no, this is very this is very helpful.

James Castleberry: Yeah. So, so so for you, Stan. What what happens with your optimism is that as soon as you do listen and they start coming up with their own solutions, now you’ve got problem solving and optimism to work with. Right, right. But but it’s first that that listening. Um, and and so yeah I think how do we take those, those strengths uh, how do we take the, the systematic way um, to more to Lee’s question of of about how, um, um, how do we not focus so much on, uh, the things that are skeptical about, uh, to the point that, um, maybe that becomes more of the conversation than what they’re excited about. And so, you know, maybe validate those things that they’re excited about. Could you see how how, you know, we could use some of the same things that you’re talking about with Holly Stone? Um, in this area where we’re listening to those challenges and we validate those things and maybe ask questions about, um, could some of those things, if we’re talking business, could some of those things that they’re so excited about, how could we use those things, uh, to help them overcome some of those things are more skeptical about.

Stone Payton: Yeah. And at a tactical level, what kind of questions can I ask or prompts can I deliver that will get them talking about what they’re excited about, as opposed to only what they’re skeptical about?

James Castleberry: Yeah. And then and then let them get to that conclusion. So you say, okay, so you’re so excited about this. So how, um, how would you feel better about these other things, uh, and balance that with what you’re excited about here. They’re gonna solve their own problem. And it might be something that you could jump on and go with to get them to the close.

Stone Payton: Right. Yeah.

James Castleberry: Lee, what do you think about that?

Lee Kantor: Uh, I’m on board. I think that that makes a lot of sense and that. I think there’s definitely a place for using emotional intelligence in these types of closing conversations. So, um. Yeah, I’m on board.

James Castleberry: Yeah. So I think, you know, you each have individual goals, uh, that came, uh, from our conversations. And so if you think about those goals, you think about the accountability of those. Um, are there ways in the business that you could use, uh, those goals, uh, together, uh, to move forward, to move from the discussion where we’re not focusing as much on. Let me just ask you the question as to tell you, how could you use the goals that we set for both of you, uh, to move that, that, um, that challenge forward where the focus is not as much on, um, problem solving for them, but working with them in their strengths.

Stone Payton: I don’t know that I have the answer for that, but I think we need to find the answer for that. And and it could be as simple as now that Lee and I have this, um, yeah, it’s always helpful to have, like, a common language, right? Like a common nomenclature. So we know what to call some things, and we know a couple of the, um, the things that were surfaced through going through the assessment and the debrief with you. So there’s always power in this, uh, this accountability partner kind of thing. Um, and to try to keep each other in check on that or at least, at least bring that up, um, but also working hard in all of our messaging and all of that stuff to take the best of, of both of what we bring to the table and get it folded into those communications. I’m thinking.

James Castleberry: Yeah, I heard in another interview that y’all were talking about the the frequent writing and, uh, and then putting things in people’s, um, inboxes as, as quickly as possible. Um, uh, what what what is the greatest strength that you guys bring together, uh, to a client that they may not see in just the writing?

Lee Kantor: I think part of, um, what we bring to a client or a prospect together is that both John and I have similar values, but we both have a different kind of way about going about things. So it’s like you mentioned it, stone has a level of optimism, and he has a really, um, kind of enthusiastic personality. And all of that comes across where I’m more quiet and I’m more introspective, but I’m also good at analyzing things and maybe seeing things that neither one of them saw. So together, it’s pretty powerful when, um, we’re both together with somebody and they have an issue and we’re able to really tag team and get to the heart of the issue that maybe they didn’t see, or a way to achieve the outcome that they hadn’t thought about before. So they can get on board pretty quickly because we’re seeing it through two different lenses and together it becomes very powerful.

James Castleberry: Yeah. So but right now, what I think I’m hearing from y’all is that those strengths that you have, and even the way you balance one another because, you know, it’s like my wife, uh, my, uh, as an analogy, um, I, I things get blurry far away. Uh, for her, it’s hard for her to read, uh, the ingredients on a bottle that’s close to her. I said. So, you know, between the both of us, we’ve got one person that has perfect eyesight. So in this business, I think y’all balance really, really well based on what I see in your results and what we’ve talked about. Um, and so, uh, do you think that you could see value in, um, in when you’re both having this conversation with someone that you may be bringing on board. And this will this will be even more important as you, as you scale is to, uh, to focus in rather than the problem solving in those, those areas. Look at what they’re enthusiastic about. Look at what they’re positive about, what they enjoy about it, and then talk to them. Uh, because y’all can both problem solve together, bouncing off of one another with, uh, with a client. But think about how that stuff can be, um, uh, how they may be able to use. And sometimes maybe y’all go into the coaching mode that you both can do in business. Really well, go into the coaching mode there of asking them, well, these things that you enjoy, how can we use that to overcome some of some of these challenges that that you’ve brought up? Is there a way that you can see how we can overcome some of these challenges that you’re bringing up?

Stone Payton: I do think there’s power in that. And then I also just wrote down, and this is beginning to address my logistics, my skepticism and all that or my hesitation around logistics. We have this process with the with me doing the Pre-call lead, doing the interview, me doing the the post interview call. And it is overtly framed and always includes helping them use things that we have seen and done over the last 21 plus years. On how to fully leverage the fact that you’ve invested the time and energy to do the interview. And then there’s there in some of those conversations, there has been from me, um, opening up the conversation about exploring the idea of being a studio partner, you know, in Pittsburgh or San Diego or whatever. And now what I’m thinking is the if it’s someone that I really think should explore, that I should tell them that give them like the the easy next step, but then the next step is this fourth step that we don’t have built in officially. And that is a conversation with with me and Lee and the person so that we get to bring everything you’re describing. We get to actually bring it into the equation. And that is worth Lee’s time and my time together. To have that, to have a conversation in that fourth step, is that make sense?

James Castleberry: Perfect sense for me. What do you think, Lee?

Lee Kantor: Um, I think a way to address that might be maybe when you’re doing that, call the third step. Write the follow up. Yeah. Is that I am. You only do it when I’m available so that you can say, you know what? Let’s call Lee. And and it’s just part of that system in terms of I’m available. So like I’m booking myself for that call, and I’m available if needed so that I can jump on the call immediately. So it looks like it’s a hey, that’d be great if we got Lee’s input. And then you’re like, let me text him. And then I jump on the call so it doesn’t turn into a fourth. Let’s logistically, you know, try to schedule a fourth conversation. It just becomes part of the third conversation.

James Castleberry: So I love that. And I’ll tell you why. And then I’ll get both your thoughts on it. But I love that because part of building trust is that visibility and that availability. And you guys are partners supporting this new client and and them knowing it’s sort of like having an open door policy that you can use in real time.

Stone Payton: And choose not to use if, if, if.

James Castleberry: Circumstances don’t if you don’t need.

Stone Payton: It. Right, right, right right, right. Okay.

James Castleberry: What do you think.

Stone Payton: Well, at first I was.

Lee Kantor: I well I think it’s about trying to shrink this, like like you said, um, uh, James, about the. This feels like an inner. Now, I got to go to a fourth conversation with these people, like I, you know, I just was on a show, like, what’s happening here? So if they’ve already agreed to three, let’s see if we how much stuff we can squeeze in those three. Um, and this might be the thing that puts him over the edge because to your point about this shows how important this is. We’re demonstrating. Oh, this is important. I’m going to call my partner. He’s going to jump on the phone right now on camera, uh, to, uh, you know, continue this conversation that is elevating the importance and demonstrating that we’re, you know, delivering on what we’re promising. I.

James Castleberry: I think I think toward building trust. Y’all see how that can be? If it was you and you were about to join with someone and you’re having a conversation? You said. And someone just tells you, well, let me get him on the phone. And, uh, and, you know, this is important to to all of us. So. So let me get on as far as your trust, as far as your personal connection with the people that you’re about to go into business with. Uh, how do you think that would feel for you?

Stone Payton: Well, now that we’ve talked it through, I feel like I think it would feel good when when when the idea first surfaced a few moments ago, it felt a little bit like, um, a little bit of trickery or subterfuge or like, misdirection. But it’s not if legitimately Lee is scheduled for that time. And at some point in the conversation, based on the conversation, I make the decision to bring Lee in, you know? So so I’m feeling better about it now. Yeah.

Lee Kantor: How would you feel, James, if that happened? It.

James Castleberry: No. So so I think, you know, I think I’d feel good about it. I think I’d be like, okay, they’re dedicated. They’re working with me. We’re problem solving together. Uh, you’re already starting to team at that moment. Uh, and you’re demonstrating, uh, again, in a virtual environment, it’s more difficult. And so, you know, I’m studying some of the cues that are different in a virtual environment because you can’t feel that emotion like you can in person. You can’t feel that a person is at ease, you can’t feel tension if something’s going the wrong way. But virtually, with that type of availability, well, let’s hop on a call. Let’s bring so and so in. We’re on the camera. Hey, I’m happy to help. What’s going on, guys? Um, that type of openness, that type of availability that that helps with trust, that helps with psychological safety, that helps build a team.

Lee Kantor: I mean, it’s definitely an experiment we should pursue. Yeah, I don’t see a negative of of trying this for the next handful.

Stone Payton: I don’t either, and we could do it in such a way that the it could be a calendar that is specifically for that type of call. It could be tied to your availability and mine. And then you would know because it’s on that colored calendar, you know, in your calendar it’s colored orange or something, whatever. And then you know that that you’re there doing your all your stuff. You always do. And I can text you and say, hey, join this call. And then other times I won’t text and you’ll be doing whatever, you know, um, back office stuff you’d be doing during that time anyway, right?

Lee Kantor: Right.

James Castleberry: And then some of it, uh, so so I think what I hear y’all saying is that it’s worth trying. I think, Lee, it goes right along with what you’ve said before about, um, getting to the nose because from each. No, it’s not as useful if you don’t learn anything. You know that sociology teaches us that, uh, it’s faster to the production line. If you bust a hundred, uh, cups or pots than it is to try to make the perfect one. And so that’s where we get this idea about hearing nos. Um, but from every pot that we break, we need to understand why it didn’t work for us. And so I think things like this, in learning from those nos, uh, and in, in building more interpersonal relationships, virtually being visible, um, being responsive, um, and coming at it from a, okay, this is what you’re really happy about, about the business. And so how can we use those things to make you more comfortable with those things that you might be more skeptical about in a, in an approach?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I’m I’m with you. I think this is definitely, Um. Um, a great next thing to experiment on.

James Castleberry: And I know this is this is not. And I know that, um, your systematic thinkers, one of you is a very systematic thinker. One of you is a big problem solver, but you both are high in optimism. And so you can be optimistic about trying the process, but also skeptical of of making a change to a process that you believe is working. Um, but what I think I’ve heard is that some of the challenges is not getting to closing.

Lee Kantor: I mean, I think some of our challenge is that we’re not in front of enough people, and the people that we have thus far are not evangelizing enough. So we’re not choosing the right people to be evangelists, and we’re not getting the volume of people to know about what we’re doing. That combination, I think, is what’s, um, kind of slowing down our growth to 100.

James Castleberry: Okay. So, um, to, to get to at least, um, you know, for our conversation today to get to one, one process that that maybe you could experiment with, uh, drawing on both your strengths and, and your challenge, individual challenges to try to help the business grow, uh, especially in this virtual environment where there are some challenges, even greater challenges. What is one thing that we could, um, we could grow, develop in our process, change a little bit that that we think might, uh, might yield a different result?

Stone Payton: Well, for me, Lee’s right about the other things he said. But within the context of this particular conversation, to me, an actionable set of steps is to is to rework the way we do Three relationship building moment three that that post-interview call where it’s tied to a calendar, where Lee’s going to be doing office work or whatever anyway, he’s going to and and I may even say something in my pre-call we’ll see. I might adjust that a little bit, but in that call and then make it where it’s organic, perfectly appropriate when it’s when it makes sense to bring Lee into that conversation. If it starts to go down, you know the desired path with somebody we think we might want to work with.

James Castleberry: Yeah, even the name of the call was relationship building. Right. And so this is where drawing on that, that interpersonal relationship, um, and, and then building trust virtually by being available, being visible, uh, anything that we could do that would contribute to that when, when you get, um, a hint of and I’ll ask this question and I’ll continue a thought. Did you all share your results with one another? Did you want to?

Stone Payton: We did like, vaguely, but like I didn’t send him my report. I don’t think he didn’t send me his. But we we talked about it a little bit like the high, the high points. And we probably will put it, put them both in a shared folder. But no we really hadn’t.

James Castleberry: Okay. So so if you’re thinking about targeting that rbm3, uh, and the first two words are relationship building, think about your emotional intelligence results and what you’re both strong at and where you both may have challenges so that y’all can leverage that with this client. That may have questions.

Stone Payton: Right. And again, some of that, yes, we should definitely put some planning and forethought in it. And based on our history together, especially in the olden days when we were together in a studio, uh, some of that might be a little bit like riding a bike. We, we, we were able to do that pretty darn effectively back in the day, weren’t we?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I mean, that’s one of I think the thing that makes us a good team is that we complement our strengths and weaknesses.

James Castleberry: So I definitely see that. I could see that, y’all. Uh, as far as, uh, business partners, as far as going forward, I can see the balance. And, you know, we talked about achieving balance, being what was most important. And so if you put both of your, uh, reports together, y’all achieve a great deal of balance here. Um, like my wife and I, you know, having perfect sight, you know, mine being, uh, farther away, hers being shorter. Uh, and so this could be a part of the business that that, uh, that could, could take you farther. Um, and, uh, just by doing what you used to do, uh, and do. Well, and that you actually enjoyed, y’all. Yeah, yeah. What do you think?

Stone Payton: I like.

Lee Kantor: It. Yeah, I think it’s definitely, um, a great outcome for this call. And thank you so much for being part of it. And, James, if somebody wants to learn more about your practice or, um, do you have a website, is there a best way to connect?

James Castleberry: Yeah, it’s really simple. Uh, it’s a leader e a emotional intelligence is AI, but the website is leader e.com, and all of my information is there. We, uh, we help, uh, businesses, uh, we do team workshops, we do executive coaching. And I’m also able to certify people in emotional intelligence tools.

Stone Payton: Well, James, you have definitely lived up to your advance press. Man, thank you so much for investing the time and energy to work with us. I’m sure we’ll get a chance to talk quite a bit more, but, uh, we can’t thank you enough. Man, this has been fantastic.

James Castleberry: No, no, thank you for having me. I sure appreciate being here. And I know, uh, I can tell already that the, uh, the wheels are turning and how y’all might be able to, uh, at least go after this. Uh, rbm3 goal. I can’t wait to hear how it works out.

Stone Payton: Well, we will definitely keep you posted, man. Thanks again.

Speaker1: Thanks for listening to Scaling in Public the next Business RadioX 100 markets. Are you ready to enjoy a steady stream of discovery calls? And finally, stop being a best kept secret? It’s time to step out of the shadows and watch your coaching business grow. Let’s fill your calendar ten discovery calls in a month, guaranteed. Go to Birr to download the free Business RadioX playbook.

Breaking the Chains: Revolutionizing Addiction Treatment for a Healthier Tomorrow

February 24, 2026 by angishields

ALR-NAATP-Feature
Association Leadership Radio
Breaking the Chains: Revolutionizing Addiction Treatment for a Healthier Tomorrow
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In this episode of Association Leadership Radio, Lee Kantor interviews Marvin Ventrell, CEO of the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers (NAATP). Marvin discusses NAATP’s 47-year history, its mission to support and professionalize addiction treatment, and the evolving landscape of the field. Topics include the medical nature of addiction, industry growth, the impact of insurance reforms, regulatory standards, and ongoing challenges such as stigma and funding. Marvin also highlights NAATP’s advocacy, educational resources, and efforts to ensure quality care, encouraging listeners to access trusted treatment through accredited providers.

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Marvin-VentrellMarvin Ventrell was named CEO of the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers (NAATP) in 2015, continuing his decades long year career as a practicing attorney, professor, professional association director, and addiction treatment executive.

Mr. Ventrell’s career has been devoted to advocating for populations in need and building legal and health care system responses to meet those needs. In addition to serving in executive leadership roles in several national social welfare and justice agencies, he has authored two textbooks on law and social justice, book chapters and peer reviewed articles on law, medicine, social services, behavioral health, and addiction treatment and recovery.

He is a frequent commentator in the national media and lecturer at treatment programs, conferences, universities, and agencies.

Prior to joining NAATP, Mr. Ventrell served as Program Director at Harmony Foundation and as a consultant to CeDAR at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, both Colorado based addiction treatment programs.

He testified before the United States Congress and has served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. He is the recipient of numerous distinctions including the American Bar Association National Advocacy Award, the National Council of Juvenile Court Judges Meritorious Service Award, the University of Colorado School of Medicine Kempe Award, and the Ashley Innovator Award given for impact in the field of recovery through innovation, commitment, and dynamic thinking.

Mr. Ventrell’s focus while leading NAATP has been to secure the place of addiction treatment in health care through the establishment of treatment program ethics, professionalism, integrity, and evidence-based efficacy.

NAATP, founded in 1978, is professional membership association of addiction treatment providers whose mission is to provide leadership, advocacy, training, and member support services to ensure the equitable availability and highest quality of addiction treatment.

NAATP has prospered under Mr. Ventrell’s leadership and in 2020, the association created the Foundation for Recovery Science and Education (FoRSE), an unprecedented effort to collect and measure patient treatment characteristics and outcomes on a global scale.

Follow NAATP on LinkedIn.

Episode Highlights

  • Overview of the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers (NAATP) and its history.
  • The mission and role of NAATP in supporting addiction treatment providers.
  • Evolution of addiction treatment practices over the past 47 years.
  • Types of addictions addressed in treatment, including substance and process addictions.
  • The impact of the opioid crisis and the ongoing prevalence of alcohol-related issues.
  • Business models of addiction treatment providers, including non-profit and for-profit structures.
  • Trends in consolidation within the addiction treatment industry.
  • Standards and regulations in addiction treatment and the importance of accreditation.
  • Financial challenges faced by treatment providers and the significance of fair reimbursement rates.
  • Efforts to reduce stigma surrounding addiction and improve public understanding of addiction as a disease.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Association Leadership Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor. Here, another episode of Association Leadership Radio. And this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have the CEO of the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers, Marvin Ventrell. Welcome.

Marvin Ventrell: Thank you. Lee. Glad to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn about your association. Tell us about the NAATP. How you serving folks?

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah, well, we’ve been serving them for 47 years. I just finished before we jumped on a letter to our members thanking them for 47 years of service. So what NAATP is the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers is our country’s professional membership society and trade association for treatment programs. So our members, thousands of them across the country, are sometimes referred to as rehab, although I don’t love that term because it really doesn’t mean much because really what treatment providers are is healthcare. Addiction is a disease. But we, uh, for now, for 47 years, have been serving, uh, those folks, helping them be successful, helping them improve their practice, helping them be visible and ultimately helping people recover from the deadly disease of addiction.

Lee Kantor: So can you talk about 47 years ago, how did this even come about? What was kind of the genesis of it?

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s very different marketplace now than it was 47 years ago. You know, we we exist as a substance use disorder is the technically appropriate and medical term for addiction. Addiction has kind of a pejorative, kind of a negative sound to it. We use it all the time. In fact, it’s in our name. But sud substance use disorder is really the medical term. It’s a disease centered in the brain with biological, psychological and social manifestations as how we talk about it in, in medicine and in social science. So these days we deliver health care. But in 1978, when we were founded, addiction treatment was really still in its infancy. You know, we had some programs like Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation, and there were a handful of treatment providers around the country who were doing this work and wisely said, let’s not do this independently of one another. Let’s come together, share our best practices, and increase the proliferation of of treatment centers in the country. There are there are there are millions of people suffering from the disease. And everybody will benefit if we come together as a trade association and society. So I believe, and I think there’s plenty of evidence to back this up, that professions need professional societies. I’m a lawyer also. Right. So lawyers have have the American Bar Association and its various tenants. Doctors have the American Medical Association engineers, accountants have professional societies. These professional societies are the glue that hold a profession together, support it as a whole, increase its importance and let the public know how valuable these services are. So. So that’s, uh, that’s what happened. A handful of of people who were running treatment centers said, let’s get together. And they had a meeting in California and formed the association with, you know, a few dozen members. Um, and we’ve been growing ever since.

Lee Kantor: Now, were the original addictions that were being treated. Were they ever alcohol or was alcohol kind of seen as something separate than than the drugs or the the afflictions that you’re dealing with or we’re dealing with then and now.

Marvin Ventrell: No. Well, you know, if there’s one constant in addiction or substance use disorder, it’s alcohol. So in those days it was primarily alcohol. We, you know, we treatment was thought of primarily as treatment for alcoholism. And, um, but there were other substances. Drugs have been around for a long time, you know, all kinds of drugs, um, benzodiazepines, uh, stimulants, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine. You know, these kinds of drugs have been around. Well, meth came later, but these kinds of drugs have always been around. But but predominantly in the early days, it was treatment for alcoholism. Now. I mean, the country knows about the opioid crisis, which has, uh, killed millions of, of Americans. And, um, it became a national crisis. But I’ll tell you, even though it is imperative that we address it and other drugs. Alcohol remains the biggest killer. People don’t know that. But ultimately, the the the substance that harms Americans the most is alcohol. And um, and so, you know, I always try to make that point. Alcohol is a painful alcohol disorder is a painful disease. It kills you slowly. It makes you sick slowly. It kills you slowly. That’s very different than the lethality of a drug, like, uh, like heroin, um, which can kill you in one bad use. So, you know, all our work treatment centers deal with all of it, and we call it, you know, these are, uh, co-morbid substances, poly substances. Most people who come to treatment Lee are not one thing. They typically have an alcohol disorder, but they also typically have another drug that is harming them. And and more frequently than not these days it is an opioid. Um, so yeah.

Lee Kantor: Now, when it comes to addiction, you also include like gambling addiction or sex addiction that don’t really, uh, tie itself to a substance.

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah. I mean, that’s a really good question. And it depends on the treatment program. Treatment programs need to be good at what they do. So when you look at our membership, for example, at Net-A-Porter, you’ll find this, uh, directory, it’s called the ID, the addiction industry directory. And it will list all of the treatment providers, the treatment providers around the country. And it will indicate what they, what they, what they, uh, cover. So you will have programs that that are just focused on alcohol use. Um, most programs will will focus on most of the dangerous substances. But some of our programs, in fact, many of our programs also, um, focus, um, on what we call the process disorders, because they are addictive by nature and they’re, they’re included as, as as addictive disorders in the DSM. That’s the manual that mental health uses to diagnose things. And so gambling and sex addiction absolutely are at the top of those lists. Um, and gambling has proliferated since um, sports gambling became legalized across the board. I mean, I love ESPN, I’m a sports fan. I watch it all the time, but I, you know, every five minutes there’s another ad for how to gamble on a sport. And it’s it’s, uh, it’s ruining people’s lives. I’ll just say it as plainly as that. It is ruining people’s lives. And, um, you know, uh, folks are making a lot of money from it.

Marvin Ventrell: You know, it. So you put at the end of the ad, you know, if you have a gambling problem, please, please seek help. Well, okay. That’s good. I guess it’s better to have that on there than not, but but frankly, I wish this, uh, this proliferation of gambling hadn’t happened. One of the things I like to tell people, whether it’s a process disorder or, um, a substance, the more of a harmful thing you put in front of the human population, the more harm there will be. So when there’s a proliferation of a certain drug, that drug becomes, uh, more and more dangerous. Marijuana, for example, legalized in in many places, medical marijuana legalized in almost almost all places. Um, uh, addiction, uh, marijuana psychosis has, has been significantly on the rise because of the potency of, of marijuana. And, you know, sometimes when you talk about marijuana, people are thinking, you know, this sounds like an old, um, uh, conservative sort of, um, you know, uh, uh, abnormal fear of marijuana. Look, everybody has smoked some weed in college, that kind of thing. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about people, especially young brains, who get who, who don’t develop properly or later in life who become like, literally experienced marijuana psychosis. So, um, I’m not sure what I was going with all that. Lee, but but that’s, uh, that’s a piece of it as well.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you kind of draw the lines of what addiction merits a treatment providers help like? Because you can make a case for, well, obesity and I’m addicted to junk food or I’m addicted to I mean, cigarettes, um, is a substance. Like, how do you decide what substances warrant a treatment for and what substances are just like, well, you know, you’re a human, so eat what you want, you know, sure, obesity is an issue, but you know, we’re not going to cover that. As you know, we’re not going to have treatment for that.

Marvin Ventrell: Well you know. Yeah, that’s this is a really interesting point that you bring up. So. Eating disorder is a medical disorder. It is a disorder again in the, in the DSM.

Lee Kantor: Right. But eating disorder like a bulimia or anorexia. But what about just the person that is 100 pounds overweight right.

Marvin Ventrell: Or the 15 that I can’t seem to lose for that for that matter. As you get a little older, the gut doesn’t want to go away. No. That’s right. So here’s a way to think about it. Let’s use alcohol as an example. Addiction or substance use disorder? Let’s say it that way. You know, when we just say addiction, we think, well, is a person an addict or is or is the person not an addict? As if that’s just one thing. That’s an artificial way to talk about it. What we should talk about is a continuum of disorder. So on a continuum of substance use disorder, using alcohol as an example, there are many people who have no issue with it. Right? And and never will. Now, there’s a lot of reasons for that. One of which is, is, um, an individual’s makeup. Um, for example, um, uh, diction is heritable. Uh, if, if an individual has parents who have suffered from substance use disorder, they are much more likely themselves to suffer from a substance use disorder. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of biology in all of this. Remember I said it’s a biological, psychological and social disorder. So the brain science, you know we can literally see addiction in the brain. So part of your answer is we can literally see addiction in the brain. The choice mechanisms in the frontal lobe of of a human’s brain are interrupted, literally interrupted, so that they can’t and don’t make good choices relative to substance use. Once the addiction takes hold, takes hold. Okay, so set that aside for a second and let’s talk about this continuum.

Marvin Ventrell: Um, some people have no problem with it. Others develop a problem. Right. So, I mean, and how do you know you have a problem? Well, you don’t feel as well physically. You probably don’t feel as well emotionally. You might start experiencing some depression or anxiety. And most people will have a small substance use disorder that they can address, maybe on their own by by just good practices. That happens a lot. Maybe a little help from family members or friends, maybe seeing a therapist, right. Who can help one recover from a mild form of disorder. That is a substance use disorder. That individual probably does not need to go to residential addiction treatment at all. But on the other end of the spectrum are people who, if they continue to drink for another week, they’re going to die, right? It’s going to kill them. That person needs to go to treatment. So where in in the line of all of that, uh, do we do we fall? Well, that’s why a professional has to do a clinical assessment. There are substance use disorder. Physicians and counselors have the ability to assess an individual’s problem with drugs or alcohol, and determine the appropriate placement. There is a colleague organization of ours called Asam. That’s the American Society for Addiction Medicine. And they are the docs, and they are the docs who work in the treatment centers. And they have what are called the Asam placement criteria. And those are the the technical rules by which we determine the level of someone’s, uh, disorder and where therefore in the treatment context, to place them.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned earlier that addiction’s been around forever. Um, does everybody is this just inherent in humans that everybody kind of has a drug of choice and that they could be susceptible to, you know, taking it too far and it becomes disruptive in their life, you know. Um, like you mentioned, the 15 pounds you’d like to lose, like, you know, just because you like cookies, you know, once in a while, you know, and obviously you’re not eating cookies at every meal, you know, 24 over seven. But some people may be they behave in that manner. Is that just inherent in in being human, that there is something that could we could, um, turn into an addiction if we’re, you know, if we let it or if it’s available or it’s in our face.

Marvin Ventrell: Another really good question. We’re learning more about that. So first of all, I need to stay in my own lane. I’m not a doctor or a clinician. I’m the I’m the I’m the CEO of the provider association. I know a lot about this field, but I’m not qualified to render certain kinds of opinions. But what I will tell you is that we are learning more and more through such things as gene markers that people do indeed have a propensity to become addicted to a substance. There are people who, if they, you know, uh, use cocaine once, will never be able to put it down. There are people who use cocaine once and say, I didn’t. I don’t get what all the fuss is about. I didn’t really like that. Well, it’s the same thing. I mean, let’s put it in a clinical context and assume that it’s that they used exactly the same thing at the exact same time and place. Those two individuals, uh, biology and brain chemistry, respond to that drug differently. Um, it doesn’t call for more. There are folks who, as soon as that substance is ingested, the brain calls for more. And it wants to prioritize that above calling for other things, ultimately including your own health and even caring for your your your children. You know, we say things like, how could that mother possibly, uh, choose drugs and alcohol over her child? Well, this is a horrible thing, but at some point, literally, the brain is incapable of, uh, making those choices. So, um, human beings seem for as long as, as as we have known, human and substances have been available.

Marvin Ventrell: Human beings have suffered from them. In the 19th century, think about in the 1800s and early 1900s, um, alcoholism was rampant. And by the way, people don’t know this, but cocaine was widely used in the 1800s by typically by sort of aristocratic society in America. So this is not like some crazy thing that just started in the 1960s and 70s. It’s been around for a long, for a long time. Um, but, uh, it does seem that human beings, there’s something about the human condition that makes us us tend toward the abuse of substances. About 50 million people aged 12 and over in the United States qualify or meet what we say meet the criteria for a substance use disorder. So I guess, in a layman’s way of answering your question, um, there does seem to be something in the human condition that makes us prone to to substance use disorder. But again, at the same time, some people aren’t. Most of us know folks like this. You know, you think about your your youth, your high school or your college days and you went to parties. You could almost, you know, can you think back at like, that guy was drinking a little differently than everybody else, right? That woman was drinking a little differently or using a little differently. The rest of us grew up and put it down, but some people didn’t. What’s that all about? Well, it it’s it’s about a lot of things, but it’s certainly about about their biological makeup as well.

Lee Kantor: Now, in the way that you serve your members, um, are these members, are they like, what’s the business model for a treatment? Um, provider? Like what? What is their are they going about this as the medical profession, trying to help folks or is there a business like are there franchises of this. Like what is the business around treatment?

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it’s a business and it, it exists as a for profit business. In some instances it exists as a not for profit in some instances. Historically, what you what you had like back in the 70s and mostly in the 80s were a lot of very small, typically nonprofit, um, residential treatment programs. So there would be a program that had, let’s say, 50 beds. It had a small budget, maybe of somewhere from 5 to $10 million in gross annual revenue. It was probably founded as a nonprofit 500 1C3. And it had a tiny profit margin. You know, one, two, you know, it was 4% back in the day. If you had a profit margin of 4% in this business, you were killing it. But look, if your job was simply to keep the doors open and keep good treatment coming, it wasn’t about profit sharing. That’s fine. You’re right. You just got to stay in business. But, um, as as the work continued and as it became more and more possible to to make money. This is America. This is what we do. This is capitalism. As it became more and more possible to make money by providing treatment. And there’s no reason why a for profit doesn’t provide excellent treatment. Um, uh, then the business models began to develop in much more sophisticated ways.

Marvin Ventrell: So, so these days, um, look, NAATP is a microcosm of treatment in the country. There are probably as many as 30,000 treatment programs, recovery programs of some kind that purport to do something. Well, that’s 30,000. You know, NAATP is about a thousand, right? It’s a voluntary membership association. Our members are comprised of that little small member that I talked to you about a minute ago, with $5 million all the way to our highest category, which is which is gross annual revenue in excess of 50 million. And even that pales in comparison to the large behavioral health companies that have now come along. So, um, as is typical, what has happened in this economy as it happened in other health care economies, is we have a field that has consolidated through mergers and acquisitions, and there are fewer of the little guys and more of the big guys. When you produce scale, you know, when you go from 50 beds to um, uh, 15,000 beds. When you produce that kind of scale, if run properly, there can be considerable revenue. We have seen in recent years the advent of Wall Street money, private equity has come into addiction treatment in a big way.

Marvin Ventrell: Um, there’s a couple of reasons for that. One is the Affordable Care Act, what we think of as Obamacare. The Affordable Care Act created a revenue stream for addiction treatment by making substance use disorder one of the ten essential health care benefits that must exist in policies traded on the exchange. So boom, we’ve got now we’ve got a revenue source. So if a, uh, commercial insurance, uh, payer covers addiction, uh, and trades on the market, they have to cover, uh, addiction. And according to the law, they have to cover it with parity. That is to say, uh, on par with other disorders. They can’t have special rules for addiction. So between this parity law and Affordable Care Act, there’s a revenue stream that didn’t used to exist. And so that that brings investors um, and entrepreneurs. And so we see all manner of treatment programs now that range, as I say, from these, from these small ones to large behavioral health companies. And the trend, uh, has continued toward consolidation, um, now probably going on 20 years. So, um, our association doesn’t look like it used to look, it’s not a bunch of these small providers. It’s it’s a lot more large behavioral health companies that do all kinds of things, including substance use disorder.

Lee Kantor: So now, as part of your organization, are you do you have kind of standards that have to be upheld, or is there something from that standpoint like kind of, um, a way of doing business or their do’s and don’ts. Like what is kind of because like you mentioned, it’s kind of the wild West out there to some degree.

Marvin Ventrell: Well, yeah, I think we’re taming the Wild West a bit. Addiction is, as I said, back in the 70s, it wasn’t even thought of as part of healthcare. It wasn’t generally understood that this was a this was a brain disease. But as it as it developed into healthcare, um, and it became more professionalized, you know, in the early days, it was kind of like institutionalized Alcoholics Anonymous. I should step back. Our country’s response to alcoholism, uh, that ultimately become substance use disorder, really very much begins with the good progress made by the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939 and into the 1940s. That’s a social program, right? Aa is a social program. It’s a good social program. Helps millions of people. Um, early treatment was kind of an incorporation of Alcoholics Anonymous within a residential setting. What happens from there, though? Is it professionalizes? Right. We recognize the science. We recognize pharmacology can help with all of this. And so it professionalizes into a profession that needs standards. So back to your question. The answer is yes. First of all, there are accrediting bodies. We’re not an accrediting body. We’re the professional membership society. But there are accrediting bodies. We require all of our members to be accredited by by one of the accrediting bodies.

Marvin Ventrell: The the primary accrediting bodies are to the joint what’s called the Joint Commission. And another one is called Carf CRF. And they accredit and they have standards. You can’t be accredited unless you meet certain operational standards. So their concern is primarily quality and safety. So we here at Natpe are primarily concerned with proper operations. And so we have a document called the Quality Assurance Guidebook. The Quality Assurance Guidebook, which we just published the second edition of, and it identifies the 12 core competencies of operating an addiction treatment center. Um, you know, ranging from, you know, proper workforce to, um, billing practices, um, uh, you know, ratio of, uh, patients to counselors, all of those kinds of things. So. So, yes, I would say that addiction medicine and addiction treatment has not quite gotten to the level of other, more long standing medical practices. We don’t have the rigor of, I don’t know, orthopedics or, you know, um, uh, cardiology, but we’re getting there. And, um, and folks should not go to treatment programs that don’t have that accreditation and follow things like the quality assurance standards.

Lee Kantor: So what, um, in what kind of ways are you helping your members? Like, is there, uh, chapters around the country, or do you have, uh, annual meetings? Like, in what ways are you kind of serving your membership?

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah, we don’t have chapters. You know, off and on. We’ve toyed with having local affiliates, but we just exist as a as a national, uh, entity. And we do a number of things. We have an educational program that includes frequent educational seminars. We mostly do those through webinars. These days. We have a major national conference every year. Our 47th will be in May this this year in, in, um, uh, in Florida, uh, Amelia Island, Florida. And the nation’s providers will come together for that conference and learn and share information. And we put on that meeting. So we do we have these educational programs, educational resources. Um, another thing we do is advocate for our members in the political sphere. So, um, we have a dedicated public policy advocacy component of our work, where we go to Washington and fight for programs that help treatment centers be effective and thereby help people recover from the disease. So funding is hugely important, and we always have to be advocating for for that. We also want to get our folks paid. And so the primary way in which, you know, rich people will always be able to afford treatment, they can write a check, but it’s expensive. You know, it’s a $50,000 to stay at a good treatment program for a month. And that’s that might sound like a not a lot of money, but it’s relative to health care. It’s not. Think what it would cost you to stay in the hospital for 30 days. It’s a lot more than than $50,000. I mean, a test could cost $50,000. So what we need to do is ensure that this funding streams from our public money.

Marvin Ventrell: Medicare and Medicaid continue to flow, but also and our members are mostly commercial insurance providers. Also that that commercial insurance the big the big providers, what we think of as the providers, um, the four major payers in addiction treatment and they, you know, Aetna um United uh, Optum, those, those, those folks are reimbursing treatment providers at fair rates. And that’s really a tough a tough thing because rates by and large are not adequate. And so we fight to get our members paid at the level that they ought to be paid. And we argue with the insurance, uh, payers that the better the treatment, the more you should pay. Right? We measure our work and, and um, and pay us accordingly. The there’s actually a very significant natap program that’s happening happening right now. It’s called the tick program tick. It stands for Transparency and coverage. Some years ago this is a little known piece of legislation, but some years ago, Congress passed a law that requires insurers to disclose their reimbursement rates on in a national database so that we could have transparency, understand what we’re what we’re looking at, and create appropriate competition and and quality. So all the insurers did this, but they did it in such a way that the the average person cannot possibly dissect and figure out this information. They’re what are called machine readable files. So a human can’t do it. Right. You got to have sophisticated machine readable file, um, technology. So. All right. Well then then that’s what we’re going to develop.

Marvin Ventrell: So NAATP in combination with a company called Third Horizon. Um, uh, pulled the data, uh, sorted the data. And just for the first time in 2025, we produced a report that discloses what the major national insurance companies are paying, and that is designed to democratize the field. It’s designed to create fair competition and to give the, um, give the treatment provider a fair shot at, um, uh, negotiating for good rates. If you don’t know what the it has been traditionally against the, the, um, rules to communicate your rates with another provider. Um, and in fact the, the reimbursement contracts typically prohibit that. Well, now, because of this law and our ability at NAATP And nobody else has done this, to my knowledge. To pull this data, we now give our our members the opportunity to look at this report and say, hey, this is what you’re paying us. We provide the same service as this guy across the street. How about we equalize those those those rates as opposed to it just being willy nilly? There’s a saying in our field regarding payment from an insurance company that if you’ve met one payer in one state, you’ve met one payer in one state, meaning that it is all over the board. It’s different from payer to payer, from state to state, um, even within states. Uh, and it’s very different. So it’s I would say that the payment reimbursement payment is, is more Wild West than anything still. And we need to we just need to make it fair.

Lee Kantor: Now what do you need more of? How can we help? Do you need more treatment providers that join, uh, your association? Do you need more consumers to kind of know, to go to your website or to choose one of your providers, like.

Marvin Ventrell: I would say, if you hadn’t given me those two examples, those are the two examples that I would have given you. So one of the things we want to do is help people understand that a substance use disorder, addiction is a disease. It’s not a moral failure. It’s not a failure of the will. It doesn’t make you a deficient human being. It makes you sick. And if you have diabetes, you go to the doctor. And if you have, you know, a traditional medical disorder, you seek help. And that’s the way we need to look at addiction. We talk about it as stigma. There’s so much stigma surrounding the disease that the public doesn’t seek help. Most people who need treatment don’t get treatment. Well, here, let me give you this statistic. Approximately 80% of the people who need addiction treatment don’t get it. Only 20% get it. Take diabetes. I use that as an example 80. It’s just the converse. 80% of the public who has diabetes gets diabetes treatment. So what? And why is that? A big piece of it is stigma. Um, people not seeking care. People not wanting to seek care. We say addiction is a disease that tells you you don’t have a disease. And that’s kind of true. You know, it sneaks up on people and and they don’t seek care. So we want to get rid of this stigma. Uh, we want folks to know that they can come to NAATP. Um, uh, a lot of our resources are for our members, but we also have educational materials for the public, and we have the Ade, the Addiction industry directory, which is where I would want everyone to go to find treatment.

Marvin Ventrell: Because you can’t just be in a Tap member. You have to qualify. You have to meet licensing and accreditation standards. Um, you have to follow a strict ethics code, and you aspire to the guidelines of the quality assurance guidebook that I talked about earlier. So stigma, education, all of that. Um, and then the other piece is we need to, um, elect politicians who understand that, um, we’re looking at as many as 800 people a day in this country dying from some form of addiction, and that’s unnecessary. We can treat this. And so if we fund it properly, frankly, if we get fair insurance reimbursement rates, we can, you know, we can make a proper dent in this and address it as we have other, other areas. So, um, uh, get educated, seek assistance. And if you’re an operator or you’re thinking of becoming an operator and you want to invest in this, come to us. Come to us first so that you can, you know, look, I want good providers to be members, but mostly I don’t want people to get into this work not knowing what they’re doing, because there’s too much harm that can be caused to, to the public. So, you know, um, those are the things I would stress.

Lee Kantor: So one more time, the website, if somebody wants to learn more or connect with you or somebody on the team.

Marvin Ventrell: Yeah. It’s easy. Natasha n um, and, um, you can contact our staff. We’re headquartered in Colorado. I work out of DC for for political access. Um, uh, but we’ve got lots of folks available to help, and we’re a nonprofit organization. Our job is to help people get treatment and to help that treatment be good treatment.

Lee Kantor: Well, Marvin, thank you so much for sharing your story today, doing such important work. And we appreciate you.

Marvin Ventrell: Appreciate you. Take care.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Association Leadership Radio.

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