In this episode of Greater Perimeter Business Radio, host Ramzi Daklouche interviews Jonathan Sparks of Sparks Law about his unique background, from the music industry to founding his own law firm. Jonathan shares his insights on serving entrepreneurs, the importance of learning to say “no” to projects that aren’t a good fit, and common legal mistakes businesses make by relying on generic legal services instead of experienced attorneys. He emphasizes the need for businesses to focus on their strengths and avoid getting bogged down by less profitable ventures, using the “pumpkin patch plan” analogy. Jonathan also touches on how his unconventional approach to law, embracing his own passions and life experiences, helps him connect with and better serve his entrepreneurial clients.
Jonathan Sparks is the Founder of Sparks Law. He works as an in-house counsel for small to medium sized businesses.
His bi-monthly blog deals specifically with legal issues that Georgia businesses face.
Before forming Sparks Law, Jonathan worked at the United States Department of Justice, the United States Senate Office, the Attorney General’s office for the District of Columbia, and as an attorney at King & Spalding here in Atlanta, Georgia.
He is a graduate of the George Washington University Law School, where he excelled at Corporate and Business law, Torts, Litigation, and Securities law.
Connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and follow Sparks Law on Facebook, X and LinkedIn.
This transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.
TRANSCRIPT
Intro: Broadcasting live from the greater perimeter. It’s time for greater perimeter business radio. Now, here’s your host.
Lee Kantor: This episode is brought to you by V.R. Business Sales Atlanta, guiding business owners and buyers through successful transitions with trust and expertise. Visit verbis world.com or call (678) 470-8675. Now here’s your host, Ramzi Daklouche.
Ramzi Daklouche: Thank you Lee. And with us today in the studio is Mr. Jonathan Sparks of Sparks Law. I’m so excited with this episode because I know I know Jonathan personally and his background is just amazing to be a lawyer. So Jonathan, welcome to the show.
Jonathan Sparks: Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me.
Ramzi Daklouche: Absolutely. So, you know, before we start about the law thing, because we’re going to talk a lot about it, but why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? Because it’s very, you know, unorthodox for somebody to go to what you, what you used to do to what you do right now. Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: Well, I really wanted to piss off my dad. He did a good job. And the best way to do that was to be a lawyer. So that was my goal.
Ramzi Daklouche: That’s awesome. Fantastic. So before that, what did you do?
Jonathan Sparks: Um, before law school, I was actually working a lot in the music industry. Yeah. Of all things. And, um, kind of just, you know, doing whatever I could to to make money in that industry, uh, teaching, you know, guitar lessons, setting up soundstages for mega-churches in the Colorado area and all of that. And, um, quickly kind of hit the ceiling, I think, for that industry and sort of art. So, um, Decided to trek out to Washington, D.C. and go to George Washington Law School. Oh it’s.
Ramzi Daklouche: Fantastic. So what year was that about what year? I want to.
Jonathan Sparks: 2009. Oh, that’s not bad. Yeah, it dates me a little. Yeah. Not yet. Not yet in the bad zone.
Ramzi Daklouche: And did you immediately go to having your own firm, or did you work for the firm?
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. I, um, I got out of law school, and it was kind of a tough time for lawyers. There was a lot of, I’d say a lot of supply of lawyers and very low demand for lawyers. Um, post. This is the post 2008, you know, crash. So and I really wanted to be, you know, a transactional lawyer working on, um, you know, business commercial deals. Yeah. So my first job, uh, was at King and Spalding, which is a pretty major firm internationally, but their main headquarters is here in Atlanta and, Uh, you know, got a lot of great experience there. Had a good time. Um, and then, uh, decided to set up my own shop. They, uh, they had kind of a this is kind of a big, uh, hot button topic in, in, uh, the world today, but, you know, are you promoting people based on merit or based on seniority? Right. They were definitely seniority. And having always been someone that, you know, works hard and pulls the extra hours and tries to get stuff done. Um, you know, that just wasn’t going to fly.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. It’s hard to be, you know, pulled back when you know you’re better. But, uh, seniority sometimes wins, so. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: I mean, my my supervisor pulled me aside. We had a a major project that needed to get done. Um, you know, under budget, we had a lot of constraints. And most of the the partner attorneys were out for the holidays. So it was we were doing all this work over Christmas and New Year’s, like literally doing 60 hours a week during Christmas and New Years, like on the holidays themselves. And and we did it and we were successful. Um, and then my, my supervisor kind of pulled me aside and he’s like, hey, this is, uh, that guy over there went to Harvard, and he’s been here 15 years. Oh, my God, he’s in front of you. So that was but, you know, hey, I’m really grateful for that because I got some great experience. Uh, you know, had a good time, learned a lot, and, um, really kind of lit a fire under my buns to, uh, you know, do it. Do it on my own.
Ramzi Daklouche: So. So when did you establish, uh, sparks law?
Jonathan Sparks: 2013? Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: 2013? Yes, sir. So 11 years?
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. Yeah. 11 years.
Ramzi Daklouche: So what I know about lawyers is either they are single office lawyers or they really do. They find a niche and they kind of really do a good job. So tell me about you, because I know you’re not alone in this business, even though it says sparks. But you have lawyers, you have office team, and they’re incredible people. But tell me a little bit about how how did you go in 11 years to becoming a real, um, enterprise?
Jonathan Sparks: Uh, thanks for that. Um, I guess, I mean, we started out, you know, like, anything where it’s just. What can we possibly do to keep the lights on, you know? So I took a, like, a trespassing case. It was. And I was pulling, uh, cases from, um. Gosh, it was Georgia cases. I think that they were from, like, the 1800s or something. I mean, they were really old, interesting, crazy cases that I was trying to cite and like, it was just not for me. And we did an okay job, but, you know, wasn’t wasn’t my specialty. And, uh, another guy wanted me to go into, you know, personal injury law and med malpractice, right? Also, not for me, even though that would really piss off my dad. Well, yeah. Yeah. Um, but no, we we found that I had a real, uh, I don’t know, passion or calling or what have you for entrepreneurs. You know, I’d always been entrepreneurial myself. My family started a company when I was, I don’t know, six years old. And we kind of grew that company together as a family. It was a closely held company. They now have almost a hundred employees, you know, and they’re really thriving. They’re at the top of their market. So you know that that spirit, that entrepreneurial drive and kind of grit, um, really works well for me. And and it was I found that there was a real lack of lawyers who have that kind of mindset and approach. There was there’s plenty of lawyers out there that will, like, poo poo your creativity and your your interesting ideas. And they just kind of, you know, oh, I don’t know, you could do that. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, absolutely.
Jonathan Sparks: No one’s ever done that before. Sure. The entrepreneur says, you know. Well, exactly. That’s that’s why it’s going to make me $1 million. You know, you’re like, I don’t know. You know, you should do something else, but, um, but no, I really enjoy those people. And, uh, those are those are my people. And we like to serve them. Yeah, I.
Ramzi Daklouche: Know some of the listeners will never get to see you, but you are not you. That’s why I felt I was telling, uh, you know, I was telling, uh, Lee and his wife earlier. I said what I love about him, he doesn’t look like a lawyer, so. Which is perfect because I’ve dealt with tons of lawyers all over the world in the past, I don’t know, 20 years or so.
Jonathan Sparks: So I actually thought about that, you know, I mean, when I, when I first, when I first hung out my shingle, I was like the thinking was I need to look so basic, like I need to look so run of the mill lawyer, like, just scream boring, stuffy lawyer, you know, because that’s what people expected.
Ramzi Daklouche: Of you.
Jonathan Sparks: Right? And so, you know, chopped my long hair off, kind of grew a little gut, you know, where nothing but like polos on the weekends and, you know, like, just really basic Birkenstocks, I guess. But oh, my God, I was terrible, right?
Ramzi Daklouche: If you have a picture, I’d love to see it because I can’t imagine you that way.
Jonathan Sparks: It’s on my license.
Ramzi Daklouche: Oh my goodness.
Jonathan Sparks: There’s me.
Ramzi Daklouche: Oh, no. That is not you. Okay.
Jonathan Sparks: Different guy. So. But then, you know, I realized pretty quickly that our clients, they’re not looking for that boring, stuffy lawyer. Like they want someone interesting who’s a real human being and has their own, you know, passions and, you know, life going on. And, um, it was not a drawback that I, you know, play guitar and, you know, make music sometimes. It was not a drawback that I had an interesting background and, you know, wasn’t always only in the law. So.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, I think for me, when I met you, it gives you an edge, right? Because it’s not a different, you know, career path even or life path to become a lawyer and being unorthodox, uh, you know, in your profession allows for people that really looking for that, uh, differentiator to find it with you, which I really appreciate because absolutely evident in the work you guys do and how you how you carry yourself. Not the stuffy, typical lawyer, not nothing against them. I’ve met some great people, but it’s refreshing to find that other thing and probably helping you with your career. So, um, Sparks Law has grown significantly in the past. What do you think has been the key to your success?
Jonathan Sparks: Um, learning to, you know, say no, I think is a big deal. You know, um, learning to, uh, you know, just what’s not a good fit, you know, for everybody, for clients. Certainly for employees. You know, for vendors. I mean, um, we just we call it the spidey sense at the office on our team. You know, if somebody gives a if our spidey sense is tingling, uh, it’s probably not going to be very interesting.
Ramzi Daklouche: You know, it’s interesting you say no, learning to say no first thing. Because I think that’s the biggest detriment to any business, especially at the beginning. You start taking everything. And sometimes I find myself in the same thing, like, I’ll take anything. But you got to learn to say no, because once you say no, that next the time you took to really work with BS, projects can be spent on networking or other stuff that can really actually help your business. So I’m learning. I’m trying to learn to say no, but it’s a gift if you can say no, especially in your personal life as well, to say no and take care of you first. So that’s very, very important.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, yeah, I think there’s, uh, I forget what it’s called. It’s something like the pumpkin patch plan. I don’t know if you guys remember this, but Mike Michalowicz, I think is the author and really great book. It’s probably ten years old now, but they they analyzed how people grow the biggest and best pumpkins in the world. And the way that they do it is they they kill off all of the little tiny pumpkins because they’re just gonna suck up the nutrients that the big pumpkin needs, you know? And nobody cares about the little pumpkins, you know? So he’s like, for every service business, you really got to, like, learn to feed the big pumpkins for your business. You know, whatever is the best for your business and exactly what you said, Ramsey, um, you know, you have a limited amount of energy and focus and time and money. Certainly. And if you’re wasting it on, you know, somebody who’s, you know, not a good fit for you, then you can’t be nice to your, your great clients that you love and want to work for and see them be successful, you know?
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. And, you know, my advice to new business owners is they get everybody falls into that. Right. Because they’re looking for cash flow. They’re looking for, you know, keep feeding the beast. Right. So at the beginning you may have to take few, but then you really have to keep that in mind. Like eventually I’m going to have to get to the point where I say no. Right. So at the beginning, it’s hard you taking everything literally. Oh, I’m excited I have case or I have, you know, client. But at some point you have to kind of start firing clients that are not that do not line up with your business plan or your strategy. So yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: And you’re thrilled to work with ones that are good clients for you, you know. And you can you can help them to kick ass in the, you know, in their markets. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: So what kind of businesses do you typically work with? Like what size businesses, what businesses you like. You know, what’s your soft your soft spot?
Jonathan Sparks: Um, I love working with businesses that, uh, have recently found a lot of success and are kind of growing a little faster than they anticipated. Or are they necessarily know what to do with it? Because yeah, there’s a lot that we can help out with. And, you know, um, I think another thing that kind of differentiates us is, is just understanding of, you know, what is a cash crunch, you know, why is that important? And what can a business do to not, you know, fail from all the growth that they’re looking through? Well, I.
Ramzi Daklouche: Got to tell a story about you. So it’s funny because I had the same situation. My business took off really fast. And two days ago, you and I had a conversation. Yes. And you said we need to review something, right? Yeah. Because it’s not. So it’s literally. I love what you said because it lines up and that’s not actually rehearsed or anything. It lines up exactly with the advice you gave me. Yes. You know, we need to kind of slow down, to kind of move fast on some of the paperwork that I have that probably will get me in trouble. Or, um, anyways, we have to work on it, so.
Jonathan Sparks: We’ll be all right. Yeah, we’ll be all right.
Ramzi Daklouche: We’ll be all right.
Jonathan Sparks: Very good. Yeah. Um, yeah, I what.
Ramzi Daklouche: Are the most business mistakes you see businesses make or most legal mistakes businesses make?
Jonathan Sparks: Oh, um, two separate questions, I guess.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: Okay. So legal mistakes. Um, yeah. They. There’s this. Okay, so I want to take this back a little bit when Whole Foods before it was, you know, bought out by what is it Amazon. Amazon. Yeah. Amazon. Jesus. Uh, we’re not supposed to talk religion, right?
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: You did before it was bought out by Amazon. It was a very you know, it still is. I guess the branding is that everything in there is, like, healthy and organic and everything. So I had this halo of health, So I would step into and I was, I don’t know, maybe 19 years old or something. And I would go into this, these stores and I thought, everything in here is going to make me more healthy because this is a healthy store, right? Okay. And of course, I bought a ton of guacamole and these, like, dripping and grease chips to dip the guacamole with.
Ramzi Daklouche: Oh, that sounds delicious.
Jonathan Sparks: Like, it was amazing. You know, it gave me a stomachache, but it was incredible. It was the greatest thing. And I was like, this is the new. This is heaven. I’m going to go here every week. Yeah. And it’s, you know, like, I can just eat these chips and then I’ll be healthy, have my cake and eat it too. So I, I gained a lot of weight. People have the same problem with legal services. Okay. So there’s a halo of safety with companies like Legalzoom because legal is Legals in the name is in the name. It’s got to be good or rocket lawyer, you know. Sounds so sexy, like Rocket Lawyer. But those are not attorney firms. And there have been hundreds of years of ethos and ethics and, you know, malpractice laws surrounding professionals, especially attorneys. And these companies have none of those, uh, hindrances, if you will.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: So they can commit malpractice all over your face, and there is nothing you can do. But it says legal in the name, and you’re paying the money. And I see this so much, and I get it, I, I totally get it. Because had I not gone to law school, I would have. On. This is the most perfect thing. It’s just like those greasy chips that are healthy, right? Yeah, I heard from some, you know, I googled somebody says I need an operating agreement, you know, okay, for my new LLC, right. So I’ll get it set up professionally. So I’ll hire Legalzoom for, you know, 4 or $500. And they set it up and they give me this thing, and they make it so sexy, they give you, like, a stamp and a corporate shares and like, printed stuff, but it’s all crap. And it’s just to, like, it’s just to defraud you, basically. I mean, it’s not fraud, but because it’s in their disclaimer, it says, if you look at the fine print on Legalzoom website.
Ramzi Daklouche: Only lawyers read that. By the way. Go ahead.
Jonathan Sparks: Right. Yeah. But it’s sad, right? Yeah. Uh, it says this is intended for entertainment purposes only, not intended for any purpose whatsoever. Oh my God. Like, it literally says that. I mean, this is what I read like 5 or 10 years ago, but maybe they’ve changed it since then.
Ramzi Daklouche: But it’s terrible. How many people do you think know that one out of one out of ten, maybe very few.
Jonathan Sparks: And they’re, you know, understandably, it’s a business. Hey, you know, I’m an entrepreneur to like, you know, I got to make my cut. I get it, you know, like, go big or go home. But it’s a lie, you know? I mean, they’re advertising on these intellectual platforms like NPR and stuff. People are really heady, you know, intellectuals, they’re like, oh, yeah, like legalzoom sounds good. But then these people get into big trouble. Big, huge trouble. I mean, we we had a guy we were talking about this a month ago. We had a friend of a friend, you know, come in from a network and they had hired Legalzoom spent good money to set up their company and their partnership agreement. They had this business that was that sold $4.5 million worth of software as a service in the prior 12 months, there was like their third year and the operating agreement, said the majority partner, who owned 51%, could buy out the minority partner’s 49% at book value, which was.
Ramzi Daklouche: I heard you say that before.
Jonathan Sparks: That’s scary. Yeah. Yeah. And book value was just the value of their.
Ramzi Daklouche: Assets, their.
Jonathan Sparks: Their laptops and some desks. So he was like, hey, man, I’m gonna give you 3 or 4000 for your 49% equity in this company that just moved $4.5 million, you know, screw you. Oh my goodness. But they signed it, you know, and hey, their argument is it says legal in the name. Well yeah. Sucker. You know like it didn’t read the fine print, you know. So I think that’s sadly the most common mistake. And I feel terrible when I get those calls and I get them every day, you know.
Ramzi Daklouche: And now you have threat of AI as well. Right. So people I see documents written by eye. You could tell which one is written by eye.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. It’s they they, like, hallucinate these weird provisions and they try to sound so you can’t I is text based, right? The law. Uh, how do I put it? The way the law works is we have we have different legal language that is charged. So it’s a, it’s a legal term of art that has a very specific meaning, as long as you say it in this exact way. Correct. If. Here’s another story. When I went to law school, I came out, I had a philosopher and a music degree. I had a double major out of college, and I was thinking, oh man, I’m going to be so poetic. These law school professors are going to love me. I’m going to be so interesting. So I was writing this memo and it was like full of this colorful, interesting language And like I was pulling out all the syllables, you know, just everything. It was beautiful. And he gave me, like, a D, and he’s like, he’s like, you don’t go to law school to be creative. You know, we don’t care about what we don’t care. You know, it doesn’t matter what you stop. You know, like all that we care about is what the judges said hundreds of years ago, and that’s it. I, too, is just like me little, you know, cocky bastard in law school, right? Trying to be creative. But that makes it worse. If you don’t use the exact same legal language, it doesn’t work. And that means that the AI contracts largely don’t work and the judges won’t give. I like the benefit of the doubt. You know, they’re going to be like, yeah, good job writing this.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, I see a lot of that. A lot of Lois come to me, a lot of legal documents come to me straight from, um, AI.
Jonathan Sparks: Chatgpt generated. Yeah. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: And to keep the lines so they even bother getting rid of the lines and the font.
Jonathan Sparks: You can always tell from the font that’s the new. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: Very good. So now you know what? I want to get to the subject that really I want to talk about. Very very important for small businesses, which is the difference between will and a trust. Oh yeah. This is, this is really why I wanted to have and I’m very excited about this because I think the education of will versus trust for small businesses, regardless of size, is very, very important. Right. And involve both, uh, you know, businesses that we’re in, which is business brokers and, and legal. So let’s kind of talk about a little bit. A lot, a lot of them, you know, they think will is enough. And when I asked, you know, ten people what do you have. It’s Will that I have. Right. So tell me what’s the advantage or disadvantage of having that. And we’re going to break it down a little bit more and hopefully this will become an educational piece for anybody, you know that starts a business.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. So trusts are one of those legal technologies. I mean, it’s, you know what, a thousand years old now. But I mean, it’s it’s survived that much change in the world and legally because it’s so good. Right? Uh, okay. So here’s how it breaks down. If you have a will. So if you have a will, has to be, you know, professionally witnessed and you need two disinterested witnesses for it to work. But let’s assume you have all those things done. You get a professionally written what have you. It has to go to the probate court. So if and when you die, uh, your will will be probated, meaning that your heirs or whoever you know is your executor takes the copy of your will. The actual will itself. The original to the probate court. And then you start basically a legal proceeding. The average time that that legal proceeding takes is 9 to 15 months. And it depends on how complicated the assets are in your estate. If you do not own a business, it’s pretty simple, right? So, you know, not a big deal. But if you own a business and there’s people that are dependent upon this business, right, for their livelihood, for example, like employees, uh, you better have a trust because the probate court tends to freeze assets pending probate. So what does that mean, practically? They’re going to take your business bank accounts and just freeze them. And I don’t know about you, but if anybody froze my business, bank accounts shut down. I’m not going to have a business very long. Right. And I love my employees. And my employees love working for us and with us. But, you know, if they’re not getting paid, like they’re not going to work. You know, God bless them, I wouldn’t either, but that’s what happens, you know? Yes.
Jonathan Sparks: It’s possible that you get the most amazing probate judge in history, and that judge allows the company to not be frozen and still conduct some business. But they don’t like doing that. They’re not in the business of running a business and they don’t know how to, you know. Okay. So most of our clients, their biggest asset is their business. And it’s a difficult asset to sell. Of course. Right. So, you know, if you’ve just got a will that means you have to. You have to sell the business in a distressed state. Correct? Like immediately. So it’s like a foreclosed upon property. Someone’s going to come in there and, you know, expect $0.50 on the dollar, $0.20 on the dollar. You know, this is worthless without the guy, you know, running it or, you know, this the the boss lady is gone. So, you know, you got nothing here. So anyway, it if you just have a will, it takes your most valuable asset, which is probably, you know, normally like 70, 80% of the value of your entire estate and you’re just putting it down the drain. And what happens, which is really sad. But the, the larger companies, uh, they just take up that market share and this is gone. They just, you know, the customers go somewhere else, right? Okay. If you have a trust, the trust survives you. So it’s a it’s a legal entity, kind of like an LLC or a corporation. Right. But if you pass away and you have previously placed your business into the trust, the trust continues on even though you’re dead, and you can name who the successor trustee will be, who will run your business immediately when you die.
Ramzi Daklouche: Right. And they have the right to sell or do whatever they want with.
Jonathan Sparks: It, whatever they want. They can keep running it. They can sell it. They can sell it to the employees. They can, you know, grow it, you know. And your beneficiaries, even if they’re, you know, minor children or whatever, they continue to get profit distributions from the business. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. But you know, it protects that asset.
Ramzi Daklouche: So at what level? Excuse me. At what level of business? Like, you know, you have a lot of very small businesses. Owner operated. Right? I mean, the owner basically has a job in the business. It’s not really business owner. So what level business should they consider trust versus, um, will? Or is it every small business should consider it.
Jonathan Sparks: I’d say I’d look at it as, you know what? What happens if I die with a will? And what happens if I die with a trust? You know? And you know, if if you’re going to lose, let’s say, you know, worst case, the business would only, you know, sell for or or operate past your, your passing. If it’s, if it’s only like, I don’t know, 20 or $30,000 worth of stuff and it’s not really going to make a difference, you know, if the business is fully dependent on you and there’s no way that it can function without you, and you barely.
Ramzi Daklouche: Survive living with with it, that’s worth it.
Jonathan Sparks: Then you don’t really have. That’s not really a business. That’s just, you know, you’re you’re a 1099, you’re like a freelancer. Yeah. You know, and that’s totally respectable. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. But I don’t think it would require a trust because it’s not going to move the needle. You know, either way, if you pass, this is going to close.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: You’re going to shut the doors, right?
Ramzi Daklouche: Um, if your kid working in it, you probably need to trust, right? Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: So if you’ve got, you know, multiple employees, if you’ve got some ongoing, you know, customers, if you’ve got if more than I’d say 20% of the value of your estate is tied up into that business, then it’s totally worth setting up a trust. I mean, typically, you know, a trust will cost you around 3 or 4000. And, I mean, usually we’re protecting, you know, at least 200,000 worth of, you know, estate with that 3000 bucks, you know, if not like 2 or 3 million, you know. So it’s an easy win, you know, for everybody. But, um, but yeah, I think that’s where I would draw the line. Just how how is it going to function if I pass?
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. And how, you know, so this is great information. I think, you know, my biggest thing for right now when I talk to business, ready to sell or not ready to sell or looking at exit is do you have trust or do you not have. So very important question for me right now as I continue to learn what a trust does. So what about estate tax trust versus versus uh, a will. Because I know there’s a huge difference in how you pay and what you pay for estate tax with will and trust.
Jonathan Sparks: The estate tax. It’s been we’ve had a bit of a roller coaster with the estate tax, uh, in the last I’d say ten years. So way back when, when Hillary was running, she was talking about bringing the estate tax limit down to like 3 or 4 million. Yeah. And when Trump was running or when he did his first term. I believe he moved it up from like 8 million where Obama had it, I think, to 11 or something. And I believe it’s set to sunset this year. I’m not sure, but it’s quite high. Uh, now it’s somewhere around 20 million. So there’s not really tax consequences unless you have more than that amount.
Ramzi Daklouche: For even if you have, uh, uh, trust or just there.
Jonathan Sparks: Are there are different types of trusts that you can set up if you’re encroaching upon the, you know, the the legal limit for where taxes start to kick in. Um, and you know, it is possible Lord knows what Congress is going to do in this, this term. But, um, uh, you know, it is possible that its sunsets and they, they stop it and it goes way back down, you know, to like 6 or 7 million. Um, but currently, unless you’re really pushing on that amount, if your estate is worth, I’d say less than 6 million, then I wouldn’t worry about the extra trust stuff that you can do. There is plenty of things you can do, but it’s not really applicable.
Ramzi Daklouche: And I can’t get that at Legalzoom. I have to go through somebody like you to get to. Yes. Yeah. Chatgpt can help me with that either.
Jonathan Sparks: I mean, they will say confidently that they can help you write ChatGPT especially.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. Have you I mean, you know, just to tell a story. Do you have any examples of stories you dealt with where people kind of either lost it all or really were very successful with trust?
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. I mean, it’s, uh, it’s just not something that people tend to think about. You know, I don’t know if it’s difficult to think about your own demise, you know? Yeah. As a philosophy major, I kind of love it. So it’s all. It’s on the top of my my mind. Um, most of the time. But, yeah, I mean, it’s if you if you don’t have a trust, it’s really sad because there, there are these thriving businesses that entrepreneurs set up and worked their butts off for decades. And then it just craters. It just crashes and burns and everybody leaves it. I mean, I can’t share information about this particular client, but I wish I could, but, um, he passed away. He had a business worth at least $20 million. And man, I was it was a good friend of mine. I was harping on him to get that thing set up, and he just wouldn’t do it. He’s like, oh, I’m gonna live forever, you know? And. And then he passed away in like, a tragic event.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn’t uh, that’s very sad. And besides that, when they go because they have to value the business as well. Yes. In a probate court. Right.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. And that’s, that’s part of the reason why it takes so damn long, you know, like, what’s it worth? And and the value is dropping. It’s like plummeting the longer that they take which.
Ramzi Daklouche: But they value high, they value it high for because they’re going to collect taxes on all that stuff. Right? Yeah. So I mean, I’ve been through so many, uh, nightmares of people going through this and, you know, uh, somebody valuing it like myself, business advisor, valuing it. They value it a lot lower than the probate does. They find these people, I don’t know where they find them, but they dig gold only so they, you know, they’re getting high values for these. I wish I could sell businesses that these appraisers.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, yeah. The appraiser.
Ramzi Daklouche: Must be a different, different.
Jonathan Sparks: Set of appraisers. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: Because they have a different book. They have like Legalzoom kind of book. Yeah, it’s kind of interesting. Yeah. So you said, you know, the trust is in where we are with it and what it costs and all this stuff. So how do people get educated? Like how do they know? How are they getting the education now? Because this is lacking in small business. Right. Small to, you know, low medium business. The education is lacking. How are they getting it? Are they seminars? I mean, let’s say I go I come to your office to set up a new LLC. Is this part of the spiel? You give me that? By the way, let’s go ahead and start thinking about your your trust. Or because I know you set up companies as well. Yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: If you’re setting up an LLC, I’m probably not going to bring up the trust unless, you know, it’s clear to me that there’s other businesses, you know, because usually at the start up phase, you’re not necessarily going to, you know, you got to see if it’s got legs first, you know, is this really going to make some money? But yeah, I mean, we we have a lot of, uh. We like to keep up with clients, you know? I mean, we usually people order services from us kind of a la carte, you know? And as needed, a lot of the service that we offer is just, you know, general advice and, you know, and I love getting to catch up with clients and, you know, speak with them every few months, you know, check in on them with the quarter. And what’s your business goals. And are you hitting them? And, you know, we also really want to I don’t know, uh, okay. Here’s a story. Uh, I went to music school a long time ago, and the music teacher there, believe it or not, was the original manager for the band kiss. Oh, wow. He was a really funny guy. He filed bankruptcy, like, six times, I think, and he was very proud of it. Like, he was hilarious. So he gave us all of this advice. He’s like, you know, you need to set up an LLC. You need to take tax deductions. You’re in the entertainment business. So every movie you see and soundtrack and, you know, piece of audio equipment you buy, that’s all tax deductible. And like it’s great. And so I took notes. You know I was a geek. I was like, yeah, I’m gonna learn from this guy. I’m like so successful.
Ramzi Daklouche: I gotta pay taxes.
Jonathan Sparks: Right? So I did all of this. I took all of his advice and I really took it to heart. And I set up an LLC on my own that there wasn’t any legalzoom back then, thank God. Um, and I did everything I could. I did not do a good job of setting up the LLC. I did not have an operating agreement. If anybody tried to sue me, I would not have had limited liability. But it didn’t matter because I didn’t make any money. So my band member, uh, pulled me aside and he’s like, John, you’re you’re putting the cart before the horse. You know, like, you don’t need to do any of this. We might clear, like, a hundred bucks for a show.
Ramzi Daklouche: Nobody’s coming after.
Jonathan Sparks: You. Yeah, right. Like this does not matter. This is unnecessary. And that just blew my mind. I thought, oh, no, this is what we’re supposed to do. But no. Um, so when I get a call from a customer or a potential client that that wants us to set up a business, you know, I’m thinking, okay, what’s the least amount of legal services that we can offer them? You know, so that they can really get this company off the ground and running, and then we can be a long term law firm team for them. You know. Yeah. As long as they’re successful because God forbid I, you know, like I, I would not be able to sleep at night if we took all of their, you know, cash effectively and set up everything right away so that they had nothing to spend on marketing and nothing to spend on good employees and nothing they could spend on, you know, schmoozing their clients and figuring it out, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: So. But you can give me advice like, hey, get to this level. Yeah. And then let’s go do your trust, get to this level and we’ll do the next step for you.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: So it’s a stronger operating agreement, which is very important to. Exactly.
Jonathan Sparks: So we really try to line it up based on the income levels of the business and the success. And when you asked me earlier who my favorite clients to work for are, you know, they’re ones that like out of nowhere, they just started being successful. And they’re like, okay, now what do we do? You know.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. Yeah. And you want them to keep focus on their business and on legal stuff. So.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Let’s just knock it out. We’re good at it. We’re we’re we’re quick, we’re responsive, and we can, you know, give you some legal advice.
Ramzi Daklouche: So when somebody’s setting up trust, do they need to have the financial advisor also? I mean, is it like a group setting where you have more than I mean, legal is one part of it, right, which is drafting the agreement. But you need your tax guy or do you need your financial adviser or wealth manager. What’s the right thing for them? Because every time they bring somebody in, they’re going to pay. But it’s so important that they at some level, everybody needs to get a trust if their business to get to that whatever number. Right?
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, I mean, I love working with other professionals. I think that there are definitely some lawyers and all types of professionals out there that really want to be like the only professional they’re talking to or something. But I really enjoy talking to other professionals and have a good time, and I feel like we can do by far the best work for our client because it’s, uh, you know, it’s, uh, we’re just looking at it from every angle, you know, and covering all the bases. So. Yeah. Yeah. Um, normally financial planners don’t charge, you know, like on an hourly basis. Usually they just take, you know, like half a percentage or a percentage or something of the invested assets. Right? So they’re, you know, but they’re, they’re happy to get on the phone with us and make sure that everything’s everybody’s working together. You know, I’m putting my hands together rather than, like, fighting one another because. And in.
Ramzi Daklouche: Your situation. And now I’m going to plug something else in your situation, which, you know, a lot of probably listeners don’t know, maybe some do. You’re a president of BNI Bucket Chapter, which is the oldest chapter in the East Coast. It is.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, we were the first. We had Ivan Meisner, the the guy who started it all like check out our chapter, you know. Yeah. Often.
Ramzi Daklouche: So you have a guy I mean, you have a guy or you have a girl or you have somebody, right? That you can bring in to any situation that you trust or, you know, you’ve you’ve vetted or you’ve worked with before to kind of help that customer, right? Yeah. Which people don’t understand the advantage of being part of a good networking group and what that brings like for me, I always have 30 people behind me just helping me. Right. This is my team, right? And I’m not talking about sales team. Actually my team. If I need something, I have somebody. Right. So which is very, very strong point of view because now you expand your office. Your office is no longer no longer law. You have all these other services available to you, phone call or text, and we help each other. And I don’t think people understand the power of this. So, you know, that’s why I think.
Jonathan Sparks: It’s, um, it’s, uh, you know, it takes a village sometimes.
Ramzi Daklouche: It does take a village.
Jonathan Sparks: I love that the BNI structure and this is true for, you know, the other groups, too, power core and what have you. But it’s self-policing. So, you know, if somebody sends me a referral and I were to really mess it up, you know, or do a bad job, uh, you know, they’re not going to send me referrals anymore, and they’re probably going to tell all of our friends, hey, you know that sparks guy like, he he, you know. Yeah, he did a bad job. I’m not saying, you know, you should know. And you might even get kicked out of the group, you know, as you should. So it’s really important. And I think everybody understands this. If you, you know, are in it for more than a year or six months or whatever. Uh, you got to do a great job, you know, so everybody prioritizes those referrals, I think, and, you know, makes damn sure that we knock it out of the park for them.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, I think it’s been a pleasure being part of that group and I enjoy it. So in closing, let me ask you a question. If a business owner is listening today and wants to take some action, what are the first steps they should take?
Jonathan Sparks: Honestly, just call us. You know, I love talking to entrepreneurs. Um, you know, we don’t charge for, you know, initial consults at least. And, um, you know, it’d be great to, to get to meet you and understand, you know, what you’re doing and what your dreams are, where you’re at. And, you know, any legal advice you need? Happy to help out.
Ramzi Daklouche: Awesome. And then, uh, any final thoughts? Key takeaways that you want to kind of share with the listeners. I have a question for you, but I want to hear your thoughts and take away.
Jonathan Sparks: I, um, yeah, just just don’t use legalzoom. Just please.
Ramzi Daklouche: There was whatever you do.
Jonathan Sparks: This is this is how worried Legalzoom is about their own malpractice. Okay. They they have a very powerful lobby. They’ve already sucked up, like, 80% of the legal market. Okay. So it’s it’s big, and it makes it very hard for guys like me to, like, shout from the rooftops and be heard, you know, because they they have so much volume, they have so much marketing and so much.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, absolutely.
Jonathan Sparks: They’re growing and it’s hard to compete with that. So you know it. They want protection so bad that they tried to lobby the Georgia Congress. And they did this in all these different states to write a law that said, uh, no legal malpractice. Laws and ethics laws apply to online legal services companies such as Legalzoom.
Ramzi Daklouche: They must have a huge lobby.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, and they almost got it. They were one vote short. This is in like 2015. And they’re still trying, you know, like that. I mean God bless them. They’re they’re still going for it. So like if they got that law passed, you couldn’t even try to sue them for messing up your contract. Yeah. You can’t even try like, you just they just throw your case out. That’s how bad it is. I mean, like, we spend a good deal, as we should on malpractice insurance. If I mess up, there’s $1 million waiting for you. You know, like we’re ready to go. You know, we stand by our work. It’s. We put our livelihood on it. Absolutely.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. Plus, you have to pay for all the insurance.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, and I’m happy to pay it, you know, no question. But yeah, Legalzoom does not have that. They don’t need it, you know, because they’re not a law firm.
Ramzi Daklouche: I think that’s a great advice. I think, you know, my biggest takeaways is and I’m going to keep preaching trust versus will based on the business. I think that is so important. People don’t understand for business owners. Yeah. That’s your legacy. You’re leaving and you don’t want to flush it down the toilet. Right. And then the legalzoom thing, which I really don’t understand, and I’m going to look at the, at the, you know.
Jonathan Sparks: The fine print.
Ramzi Daklouche: I’m going to read it.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah, man. I used to do a, a BNI presentation where I would just read it. Oh, wow. And people are just rolling because it’s so bad.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. I’m gonna actually, when we publish this, I’m going to make sure it’s part of it if I can find it. Okay.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. I’ll send you the. I’ll send it to you.
Ramzi Daklouche: So now to the most important questions of the day. Okay. You’re a musician, you play guitar and I’m going to assume you’re singing too.
Jonathan Sparks: I do.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah, I’m not going to make you sing, but do you want to represent? Do you want to? Manager. We can go on the voice together. It’s my dream to take people on the voice.
Jonathan Sparks: Uh, yes. Totally. Really? Yeah, I do. I do want to do that.
Ramzi Daklouche: Yeah. You know, my my guilty pleasures are AGT and The Voice. And if Claudia is listening to this, she’ll. I watch him like I get very involved.
Jonathan Sparks: Your angelic voice, Ramsey.
Ramzi Daklouche: I don’t I don’t sing. I know.
Jonathan Sparks: You do. It’s in your heart.
Ramzi Daklouche: It is.
Jonathan Sparks: It is. Let your. So what.
Ramzi Daklouche: Is your. I’m not going to do what I want to manage people doing that. What’s your favorite genre? What do you listen to or you, you know.
Jonathan Sparks: Um, I, I’m a sucker for classic rock, you know? Oh, is that right? Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: I think the hair kind of gave it up.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. I love, you know, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: All of it. And what’s your favorite song?
Jonathan Sparks: My favorite song ever. Yeah. Gosh, I don’t even. Oh, man. I think what it is is, um, an old Dylan song. It’s, uh. I don’t even know what it’s called. It’s, um. Uh. Don’t. Oh, yeah. Don’t think twice. It’s all right.
Ramzi Daklouche: Okay.
Jonathan Sparks: Very good. Yeah, it’s like a breakup song, but it’s.
Ramzi Daklouche: It’s a breakup song.
Jonathan Sparks: It’s. He figured out how to say no in that song, and it’s so beautiful.
Ramzi Daklouche: Well, my listen across all genres, I literally do. I, you know, I listen to hip hop in the morning while I’m working out all the way to romantic at night. Yeah, for different reasons. My favorite song. And it’s because I’m a lover, not a fighter. It’s by Michael Bublé, actually. Everything.
Jonathan Sparks: Really?
Ramzi Daklouche: Yes. And it’s my wife’s favorite song, too, so. Awesome. Yeah. I cannot change it.
Jonathan Sparks: We used to play it at the end of the.
Ramzi Daklouche: I know, yeah.
Jonathan Sparks: I know, so.
Ramzi Daklouche: Very good. Well, listen, great having you on the show. Thank you.
Jonathan Sparks: Very much. Great to be here. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: Thank you. Jonathan. Your website. Do you want to tell us what? Your website. Sure.
Jonathan Sparks: Yeah. It’s pretty easy to remember. It’s, uh, sparks law practice.com. There’s this guy out of Texas that owns sparks law. Law.com. Uh, I forget his first name, but his last name is sparks.
Ramzi Daklouche: Is his injury lawyer.
Jonathan Sparks: No, he’s, like 95 or something. Oh, okay. And I keep emailing him and calling him every year. I’m like, dude, sell me this website, please, because he hasn’t changed it in like 15.
Ramzi Daklouche: He’s not using it.
Jonathan Sparks: No he’s not. He’s 95. Yeah. What is he going to do? But anyway, maybe I can, like, hit up his estate, you know, go to probate court and, like, offer them. Yeah.
Ramzi Daklouche: Send them a legal zoom. I doubt.
Jonathan Sparks: He has to send them a.
Ramzi Daklouche: Legal zoom thing. All right. Fantastic.
Jonathan Sparks: Sparks law practice comm. And our phone number is (470) 268-5234. So give us a call anytime. We’re here to help. This is.
Ramzi Daklouche: Great. Thank you. Jonathan. Thank you.
Jonathan Sparks: So much. That was a.
Ramzi Daklouche: Pleasure. Knowing your personal level and pleasure talking to you in this setting. Thank you.
Jonathan Sparks: Very much. Rock on guys. Build some business.
About Your Host
Ramzi Daklouche is Principal at VR Business Sales. His mission is to facilitate seamless transitions for business owners looking to sell or scale. The organization’s four-decade legacy in managing transactions, from modest enterprises to extensive mergers, resonates with his expertise in mergers and acquisitions. Our collaborative approach consistently unlocks the true value of businesses, ensuring sellers’ peace of mind throughout the process.
His journey began when he left corporate world to venture into the challenging realm of entrepreneurship. After running their own business for several years and earning accolades for their dedication to service and quality, he decided to establish VR Business Sales Mergers and Acquisitions Atlanta. Their mission is to provide unmatched value through transparency, security, diversity, service, and experience.
At VR Business Sales Mergers and Acquisitions Atlanta, they empower business owners and buyers with clear, honest guidance and exceptional service throughout every step of the transaction process. While their office is based in Atlanta, they offer their services nationally and globally, embracing diversity and engaging with a broad spectrum of communities and businesses.
With decades of industry expertise, they aim to build lasting relationships based on trust and excellence, enabling their clients to achieve their business goals with confidence and peace of mind. Whether they are transitioning from owning their business or moving toward ownership, they’re here to support every step of the way, navigating the vibrant landscape of Atlanta’s business community and National & Global markets for remarkable success.
Connect with Ramzi on LinkedIn.
Erik Boemanns is a technology executive and lawyer. His background covers many aspects of technology, from infrastructure to software development.
