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Al Kushner With LinkedVantage

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Al Kushner With LinkedVantage
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Al Kushner is an award-winning author and sought-after LinkedIn Growth Strategist, renowned for his innovative approach to digital networking.

His groundbreaking book, The A.I. LinkedIn Advantage, has transformed how professionals and businesses leverage artificial intelligence to optimize their LinkedIn presence, grow networks, and drive meaningful engagement.

Al’s expertise in blending AI-driven strategies with actionable insights has made him a trusted advisor and thought leader, empowering countless individuals to achieve measurable results on the platform.

Connect with Al on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • The AI LinkedIn Advantage
  • How has AI transformed the way professionals approach personal branding on LinkedIn
  • What common mistakes do people make on LinkedIn that hold them back from maximizing their potential
  • How can professionals leverage AI to stay competitive in industries that are constantly changing

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Al Kushner and he is an award winning author with Linked Vantage. Welcome, Al.

Al Kushner: Hey, thank you for the opportunity to be here. Appreciate it.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. I’m assuming this is LinkedIn related, and you’re having to be clever about the name Linked Vantage. Tell us a little bit about your firm. How are you helping people?

Al Kushner: Well, I wrote a book called the AI LinkedIn advantage, and here to share some of my insights of the book. It is getting released tomorrow, actually, Independence Day to celebrate maybe people’s independence from their time spent on LinkedIn and using AI technology to help create more. Or free up more time to use the platform more effectively.

Lee Kantor: So what’s your backstory? How’d you get involved in this line of work?

Al Kushner: Well, I was using LinkedIn, I guess, for the past 20 years and realized that it’s grown into a really tremendous network. And I said to myself, you know, what can I do to set myself different from what’s out there? And I’ve been doing a lot of training with clients and corporations, helping them to optimize their profile and do successful outreach. And I looked in the market for what books were available, and there wasn’t really anything that addressed the issue of both LinkedIn A and AI together. And now that it’s become more popular, I said, well, why not? This made a lot of sense. And that’s that’s why I decided to, uh, you know, create the book and, and use it in my practice to help people to make their experience on LinkedIn more effective.

Lee Kantor: So what are kind of some of the mistakes you see people making when it comes to LinkedIn in terms of their own personal branding.

Al Kushner: Well, I think a lot of times is that people don’t spend the time to really create or optimize their profile. And when they do decide to do an outreach, people can see pretty much right through it for the most part. It looks either amateurish at best or salesy. And it really turns people away for the most part. If they don’t really take the time to to really create content that is worthy of someone’s attention, they’re going to miss out on opportunities that they could have had.

Lee Kantor: So how should somebody go about leveraging AI when it comes to their LinkedIn profile and outreach?

Al Kushner: Well, simple. You can use AI technology, for example, to create a headline that has certain keywords that can help a person get found. Let’s say if there are, let’s say, for example, they’re doing a podcast and they were looking for guests. They would optimize their profile, including, you know, having guests on the program, the individual’s experience. Um, it’s just an example of using some creative, uh, SEO to get found on LinkedIn. Also talk about the about section, which, uh, emphasizes about the individual’s history and also do it in a way that it looks easy to read. You know, with certain bullet points. So people don’t want to spend a lot of time on you. You only have a you don’t really get a second chance to make a first impression. So you really want to stress the importance of having a profile that really stands out. Uh, other features include any awards that you’ve won, maybe accomplishments that you’ve done. Um, any articles that you’ve written that’s also helpful. Again, depending, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur, uh, which is uh, a lot of people I work with, uh, sometimes people are looking for jobs and they want to update their profile. It’s important to update your profile every quarter just to, you know, be current. And if you have changed jobs, you know, you could share that information on LinkedIn and it will go out to whoever’s following you. And and sometimes people don’t really do that and they can miss out a lot of opportunities.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, with a lot of the AI out there nowadays, you have to kind of give it the material, uh, to learn from, to understand you and your writing and, um, you know, just some of your content. Do you have to do the same thing with your LinkedIn? Do you do you have to kind of, uh, upload all of your LinkedIn into an AI, uh, platform in order for it to be able to help you effectively?

Al Kushner: No, I mean, you can use it to create, you know, content. Let’s say if you have a newsletter you want to send it out, you can create a newsletter, send out each week, and you’d have followers and they’d be receiving a newsletter. Uh, and the AI could help create not only the content but, uh, some topics that a lot of times people will have trouble thinking about. It can create up to 5000 topics, so you’ll never run out of, you know, ideas for, um, you know, for creativity. In addition to that, you can use the AI to write a script for a video, which is very effective on the platform. Video is probably a very, uh, it’s very well liked by the algorithm of LinkedIn. So if you do decide to use, uh, the videos, it could be really, uh, making a difference in getting on the radar for people you want to connect with.

Lee Kantor: And now is there a certain AI platform you prefer over another? There seems to be quite a few out there nowadays.

Al Kushner: Well, it’s always changing, you know. Uh, right now, of course, it’s ChatGPT, which is a very popular, um, AI technology that’s being used. And, uh, I certainly, uh, find it very helpful. There’s Grammarly, which is another one that also helps, uh, Canva, which is great for creating artistic backgrounds and also help with videos too, which is surprising. So there’s in my book, I have a lot of resources available. Can people can use to access and find the latest technology that’s available.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re using AI? Are there some do’s and don’ts? Like I would imagine you should use it as a starting point, but not necessarily an ending point. You can’t just cut and paste out of AI, can you?

Al Kushner: Um, well, it’s not recommended because you’re not going to come across as being authentic. And that really is something that people can see through. So you really want to use it as a, um, as a tool to outline the type of message you want to convey, but then puts your own thought into that. So it really sounds where it’s coming from, it’s coming from you, and it really can make a difference with your own voice and your own, you know, reflection of the post that you are going to use.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re working with your clients and helping them kind of create this content calendar for posting. Is there a rhythm you recommend? Is there? Um, certain types of content that you recommend, a mixture of which, you know, between you mentioned a little bit about video. So should you have a mixture of text, video, audio, um, you know, what is your recommended kind of content strategy? Uh, components.

Al Kushner: Well, every person is different depending on their situation. Um, I had a client who was looking for a way to make more, uh, connections, uh, using groups on LinkedIn. And I explained that what’s really effective in groups is creating videos. And videos should be no more than 90s at best. And we created a script for a video and that was able to be used for postings. And he found that by using videos in Groups really increased his, uh, reach tremendously. Uh, and he’s now he’s every week, uh, posting, uh, different videos for different groups and finding he’s getting a lot more engagement than he had if he just posted simple text.

Lee Kantor: So, um, can you talk a little bit about groups? Because I don’t know if everybody is familiar with that and maybe share a little bit about the strategy around it. So on your LinkedIn and LinkedIn, your feed, you can just click a button and post. And that goes out to kind of everybody. But you can also work within certain groups. Can you talk about the strategy of taking content and just posting it within the group, rather than maybe into the general feed?

Al Kushner: Well, simple. You know, the groups that you are participating in when you do post, uh, the members will be alerted as opposed to, let’s say, for example, your own, which you may not have enough members or followers to begin with. So, for example, you’re currently in the Media and Marketing Professionals Worldwide Group, which has 1.3 million members, which is pretty substantial size group. So you would, for example, post a video in that group and they’ll be notified of the actual video being shown. And what’s great about it is that it gets a lot more eyeballs on your message as compared to text, which I would say at least 95% of those members are posting in that group. So it’s really going to raise your level of awareness. And the algorithm of LinkedIn really loves that. So that’s going to be to your advantage.

Lee Kantor: So now can I take that like say I’m a member of five groups. Can I take that same video and and post it in those five groups and my feed. Or should I not do that. Like what are some of the do’s and don’ts when it comes when you have multiple groups you’re part of?

Al Kushner: Well, I guess it depends on the group that you’re focusing and what your message is you’re trying to come across. So for example, you’re in the marketing executives group and you’re a video you would post there, but it may be different than your AI powered marketing group. So again, you want to customize the message for that type of group. Because the fact is it should be educational in nature. And if it doesn’t really, you know, appeal to the members of that particular group because the message is not really kind of directed towards them, then you’re going to kind of lose out on that. So you really want to kind of customize it for each group that you’re going to be posting in. As far as your own post. You can always post to your particular feed, which is fine. But again, you may not have that amount of reach compared to the groups, which are certainly more sizable.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you post to your feed, only a small percentage of your feed sees any given post. Is it the same within the group or do more people within a group see a given post?

Al Kushner: More people will see it because they’ll be notified of the post of the video, actually, you know, being played in the group. So they’ll be alerted and they’ll decide whether or not they want to view it or not. Again, when you’re doing a type of post, it should be educational by nature. If you’re doing a blatant ad, for example, they’ll remove the post. So it’s not something that you know is going to be, you know, because again, a group is all about being accepted into the group, and whatever you’re posting should be a value to the members. So sometimes people don’t see it that way and they just post. They think it’s just a good place to put an ad, and that’s not the way to do it. Of course, you can do it in your own personal feed, which is fine. But again, you know, for groups a little more selective. And what you’re saying.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there any way to get more eyeballs on the post within your own feed without, you know, boosting it? Because as soon as you post something, LinkedIn wants you to boost it?

Al Kushner: No. You know, LinkedIn doesn’t require you to boost it at all.

Lee Kantor: They don’t require you. But if you want any, if you want more people to see it, you have to pay.

Al Kushner: Well, yeah, of course, if you want to pay to play. But I find that if you’re looking to have people be notified. A lot of times people create newsletters. And when you have a newsletter, they get notified immediately as soon as you post in the newsletter. Again, newsletter is a more for content, not necessarily video. So if you do post in the newsletter it would go to those followers of the newsletter itself. So if you have people who are following you but not following a newsletter, they’re not going to get receive that message. You’d have to post it separately. But what’s unique about the newsletters is that not only will they be notified on LinkedIn that the newsletter has been posted, but also they’ll receive a message directly in their inbox, you know, through their email or platform like Gmail, Yahoo! And what’s great about LinkedIn is that it has such a high authority that usually bypasses spam filters and gets directly to the individual, so that’s really unique about it. So if you’ve been having problems sending your own newsletter personally directly to people and they’re not receiving it, well, use LinkedIn, you’ll be quite surprised it gets through.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there a story you can share? Maybe one of your clients who was able to benefit from your book or some of your counsel?

Al Kushner: Yeah, I mean, I had a client who was trying to reach his target audience where estate planners and financial planners, and he had, um, problems in deciding, you know, how to create a content that would be worthwhile. And we created a video and a video, but a newsletter, uh, designed to, uh, focus on a particular topic, which are tech tips for attorneys, for example. And we were able to increase the following from 0 to 375 followers within a week’s time, because it was very select and people who received that message, which he get, they get every week, are very receptive to the information he’s providing, which before it got lost, you know, when he was posting directly to his his own feed and that was not a good thing. And also he was able to share it in the groups that he was part of, which really made a difference of him getting on the radar of some of the major players in those groups, particularly influencers. So that was really making a difference because he was able to get noticed, and before he couldn’t figure out a way how to do that. And that’s something we worked on. And we use AI technology to create the content and also a script for a video. And that really helped save also a lot of time as well, because he didn’t have to hire someone to write these things. He had AI to help create the content, and he was fairly good in writing, and he customized it in his own voice, and it comes out well, and he’s showing a drastic increase in following and has increased his business, I would say, by over 80%. Because of these strategies we use for outreach.

Lee Kantor: And then that’s an example of changing the strategy and having results pretty quickly. Is that normal to have results that quickly, or is that kind of, uh.

Al Kushner: No, it’s it’s pretty quick. If you, you know, we optimize the profile, we focus on that. It took about a week to make sure we got all the right things. We’re looking for particularly recommendations which are crucial to any type of outreach. A lot of times people don’t really emphasize having recommendations as part of the profile, but I’d say it’s, um, essential. And we said that he should reach out to any customers that were satisfied with his work and asked for some kind words. And that was really helpful because he realized that the more recommendation and it’s also important to have current recommendations, you know, recommendations over five years, you know, it gets kind of stale. So we had to update that, and he was able to reach out to his clients, who were also on LinkedIn, and ask for recommendations, and that really helped create his endorsements tremendously. So that really was something that really helped boost. If he didn’t have that amount of recommendations, I would say it would probably take much longer because sometimes that’s a challenge.

Lee Kantor: So is that something that should be part of people’s just regular kind of work on LinkedIn is to ask for recommendations periodically?

Al Kushner: Yeah. Be proactive with it, I would say, because the fact is, is that people will look at this as an endorsement and these are actual, real people who are, you know, stating things that, you know, help them and how the client help them with their problems. So, yeah, it makes a difference.

Lee Kantor: So you view LinkedIn as kind of a must have a platform for entrepreneurs and business people this year and the next couple of years.

Al Kushner: Absolutely. I mean, the, the the platform has grown tremendously since its inception. I would say close to over 900 million listeners, perhaps even more so. That’s pretty sizable compared to other platforms out there. And it is designed kind of geared for entrepreneurs and business, small business owners that who want to have a reach and a way to connect with people that is coming across, being authentic. And that’s really a unique platform to do it on because LinkedIn has so many rich features, particularly if you’re trying to connect with, um, you know, your target audience. There are premium features that really set it apart from what’s out there.

Lee Kantor: So do you recommend? Can you can you use LinkedIn just at the free level, or do you have to pay for more enhanced um, memberships and or do you have to pay to boost content in order to, to get the most value from it?

Al Kushner: You can certainly use the free version, which is fine. A lot of people do that. I myself use Sales Navigator because I find the benefits really worth it. And one of the things that I like about it is that when people check out your profile, you know, who’s actually looked at your profile with the premium version. With the regular version, you don’t get that feature or it’s very limited at best. In addition, if you want to connect with someone, you want to know if they’re active on LinkedIn, while Sales Navigator will allow you to show if that person is currently active. And that can make a difference of of getting an outreach compared to sending a message to someone who may be a CEO of a company, but they’re hardly on LinkedIn at all, and it falls on deaf ears. And if worse, they do an outreach and they continually to reach people who are not accepting their message. The algorithm could look as a person being a spammer. It may even decide to slow down their account or even close the account because of that situation of not knowing who they’re connecting to.

Lee Kantor: Now, if somebody wants to learn more about the book or kind of get in touch with you, get on your calendar to learn more about your consulting? Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Al Kushner: Yeah, and my website is Linked vantage. Com and I also have a free e-book available to help optimize your profile. So go to Linked vantage.com. You can also find my book available on Amazon and Spotify. We released tomorrow actually Independence Day, so check it out. It’s called the I LinkedIn advantage. Unleash the power of AI and dominate the competition. I’m also on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to me and I look forward to connecting.

Lee Kantor: Well, al, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing important work and we appreciate you.

Al Kushner: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you again, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll talk to you next time on High Velocity Radio.

Jeff Nosanov With Orbital Velocity

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Jeff Nosanov With Orbital Velocity
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Jeff Nosanov, Manager at Orbital Velocity.

He spent ten years (2010-2020) in and around NASA (JPL, JHUAPL, NASA HQ, and several startups) in deep space (outer planet/interstellar) mission development, advanced space technology research, and aerospace consulting.

He managed NASA center proposals for several major upcoming NASA Missions including study of the heliosphere, Mars moon exploration, and contributed to the proposal development of the Titan octocopter mission (Saturn’s moon Titan.)

He also developed his own mission concepts to the interstellar boundary using solar sails and to map the caves of the moon with beyond-line of sight imaging as one of the only three-time grantees of the NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts (NIAC) award.

Uniquely, his interstellar boundary mission re-ignited NASA interest in interstellar propulsion, resulting in a series of NASA wide workshops and the JHUAPL/NASA Interstellar Probe concept.

In 2015 he founded a VC- and angel- backed medical device company that used a NASA radar technology to measure vital signs, and went through the technology licensing process from the lab to the field. From 2019 until June 2022 he worked at Amazon Web Services, in the DoD and the Aerospace and Satellite divisions working to bring cloud computing to outer space.

From 2022 to the present he has supported proposal and business development across the federal government ranging from VA claims software development to advanced space weather sensors. He was the first person in the United States to earn an LL.M. degree in Space and Telecom law in 2009.

His proposals have won more than $2B worth of work for his customers, clients, and employers. His professional passions include space exploration, advanced technology commercialization, and Veterans’ issues.

Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Entrepreneurship journey
  • Living in 6 different states
  • Federal business development challenges today
  • Opportunities
  • Charm of Georgia

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show we have Jeff Nosanov. He is with Orbital Velocity. Welcome.

Jeff Nosanov: Hi. Thank you very much for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us a little bit about orbital velocity. How are you serving folks?

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. Well, so orbital velocity is my basically my consulting company. I’ve only been in Atlanta for about a year, but I’ve lived over all over the country. And most of that I was working for NASA in different ways, different organizations. And basically what I do through orbital velocity is help aerospace technology companies find work with the federal government or in the state and state government in some cases. But basically I help people find money.

Lee Kantor: And so what’s your backstory? Have you always been involved in space?

Jeff Nosanov: Well, I have been involved with the space for about 15 years. I’ve always been a space nut kind of personally. And I’ve worked for several NASA centers as an employee, as a consultant, as a researcher. I’ve done work with NASA headquarters. I do a lot of work with universities, which are often major partners in various kinds of technology and space exploration work. And here in Atlanta, I’m basically trying to find ways to contribute to those those national efforts by helping companies that are trying to provide technologies or or missions or really anything that government needs.

Lee Kantor: Now, I guess on the surface, Atlanta doesn’t seem like the logical place to start a consultancy for space. Is there things that we’re not aware of that may be happening, unbeknownst to the kind of regular folks here in Atlanta.

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. So so, you know, right on there. I moved here from my wife’s career, basically, and I do help companies all over the country. But there is actually a very significant advanced technology world here in Atlanta, largely centered around Georgia Tech and surrounding, you know, companies that spun out of that. I also basically, I also do work with any agency that does research. So that includes the medical ones. So that could be at Emory or the hospitals and so on. So basically if it’s an if a government agency gives up money for research or development, I’ve probably helped somebody with a proposal there. So so basically if you’re looking for federal funds that’s I can probably help.

Lee Kantor: Now do you work with startups at all because we have a pretty good startup scene here.

Jeff Nosanov: Yes, I love working with startups. I’ve had one myself. I may again in the future. And it’s really a great time to be a startup because there’s so much money, there’s really stupid amounts of money kind of sloshing around the country, in the world and private equity and venture capital. So it’s a great time to be starting a company. And most of them are going after the largest customer out there, which is the federal government. So a startup is a great partner and an exciting, exciting customer to work with.

Lee Kantor: So, um, let’s look at it through the lens of a startup. Say there’s a startup here in, uh, in metro Atlanta or Georgia. I don’t know if you’re aware, at one point a few years ago in South Georgia, they tried to, um, try to get a spaceport of some kind going in South Georgia that was kind of trying to get some of the stuff that Florida couldn’t get to. They were trying to kind of fill that gap, but I don’t think they were able to get approval for the land usage. Um, but it seems like we’re close enough because obviously Florida is a place for space. But also Huntsville, Alabama is kind of rocket central in their kind of world. So you’d think that Georgia would have opportunities kind of with the entrepreneurial community we have here. But if you’re a startup here, how at what stage do they kind of start talking to you? Do you want to meet them when they have an idea on a napkin, or do they need to have funding? Like where do where do you come in, you know, to kind of get the most out of your expertise?

Jeff Nosanov: I find it exciting at all stages. I mean, I love helping, working, working through business plans and investor pitches and all that. And and I do that for fun. It’s just an interesting and exciting world. But where the where I can really add a lot of value is when they have a promising technology that they may not know exactly what part of the federal government is interested in. Now they need to know that to get venture capital funding. Certainly that will be a question they’re asked, but also the making sense of the federal government, especially right now in July of 2025, is is a real challenge. And that’s something I’ve been doing for 15 years. It’s figuring out what what the government actually wants to buy and how how they want to buy it. So so again, you mentioned the, um, southern Georgia, uh, spaceport question. It really would be a great place because it can launch you can launch stuff south over the or the, over the ocean. Um, for a lot of space reasons, there’s a lot of good reasons to launch to the south. And obviously it’s a it’s a competitive marketplace with Florida nearby. So I don’t think that’s the last we’ll hear of it.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I was pretty bullish about it, actually. I was kind of disappointed that that didn’t kind of, uh, happen. Uh, but you know how this goes. It’s, uh, nothing happens fast. Um. So. Yeah. Is in your work. Is there, uh, something you’ve done that you’re kind of the most rewarding success that you’ve had in your career that you could share?

Jeff Nosanov: Yes, absolutely. So I’ve, I’ve won over $2 billion. That’s with a B of, uh, funding, uh, over my career for different companies and customers. Uh, but what I’m really excited about is actually something that’s launching in a few months. It’s a space mission that will study the, uh, basically the interaction of the sun with the rest of the solar system, that I could go on and on about that, but it’s basically studying the sun. And, um, so in 2018, I was a consultant at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, and I was a proposal manager for this mission. And, um, it’s been quite a journey since then in all kinds of ways. And, and this mission is still going on is not affected by the proposed cuts to NASA, which is another subject I could go on about, but I’ll try to spare you. But basically, this thing is going to launch into space in a few months, and I plan to be there. Hopefully they’ll invite me. If not, I’ll just show up and it will actually be the first the first space launch I’ve ever seen. And it will be really exciting for that to be a rocket launch with a mission on it that I helped make happen. So and I hope to bring my family there as well. So that’s probably the the proudest, uh, the proudest professional accomplishment for me.

Lee Kantor: How what does it like like how do you kind of wrap your mind around working on projects that you’re you’re so passionate, everybody’s fired up, and it just takes years and years and years and years before something happens. Like, how do you mentally prepare for that kind of a long term outlook?

Jeff Nosanov: I love that question because because the answer is really that it this kind of work in space and, uh, and in, in any kind of advanced technology that usually has a long term, a long term timeline. You really kind of have to deliberately adjust your your context, your frame of mind. So, you know, we’ve been exploring the universe for about a hundred years. It was about a hundred years ago, actually, that the something called the rocket equation was was discovered or invented that actually showed that we could launch things from the Earth. You know, that wasn’t a game that wasn’t a given. If the Earth was about 10% bigger, in fact, that wouldn’t be possible at all, at least not with with the way we do it now. So. So it’s really only been 100 years, and we’ve really only been doing it consistently for about 70 years. And that’s that’s a lifetime, right? And it really is a fact that most meaningful scientific explorations of the solar system, they take ten years minimum, ten or 20 or 30 even. And when you when you kind of fall in love with the subject the way I did and so many other people do.

Jeff Nosanov: It just puts a different perspective on your life and your career. I know people who, if they’re lucky, they will have one completed space mission in their entire working career. And that will be that will be everything. That will be an enormous achievement. It’s just the way the universe works. And I’ve found that one of the most rewarding parts about this work is it forces that kind of humble humility, rather, in the face of very literally, the universe and the rules that the universe has that we we have to follow. We can’t we can’t bend them. Really. So so that’s really the only way I can answer that question is it forces a humility before the universe that I think is pretty healthy. I mean, the universe is what it is. You know, we live on a planet full of water and air and food largely, and it’s right there for us. But but, um, you leave the planet, you got to change your your frame of mind because it’s not going to. Not going to make it easy for us. So so that’s really how I think about it.

Lee Kantor: Now what do you, um, what do you say to people that are that think that going into space that’s, uh, wasteful use of resources that, that why aren’t we spending anywhere near the amount of energy in the oceans and that are right here that we barely know anything about that. And that’s like right under our feet.

Jeff Nosanov: So I love the question. And it’s a really important one. And and it usually comes from, um, some misunderstandings about how this all works. So we’re not just sending money into space and, you know, blowing it up, blowing it away. We’re we’re spending it on Earth here in our communities and our institutions and our our our neighbors salaries. I mean, all of that spending is local. And, um, it’s really a really small amount of money, actually, there’s a pretty consistent, uh, mistaken assumption going all the way back to Apollo. Because the Apollo program in the 60s, it really did consume 5% of the federal budget. And there’s a whole bunch written about that and how that never would have happened if not for Kennedy’s assassination. And and they would have shut it down because of that expense, if not for Kennedy’s assassination and all of that. But a lot of people still think that’s close to the number, but it’s it’s less than one tenth of that. It’s it’s 0.2% or something like that. 0.3. Uh, it’s trivial. Really. And, and and on top of that, uh, and keeping in mind all that spending is, is on American citizens and American companies. Uh, every single economic study of NASA has shown that it either returns between 2 or 7 times the amount back to the economy.

Jeff Nosanov: So so it’s a net gain for for the country and the economy. Um. There’s a couple of interesting examples that I like. For example, in the 60s, in the early semiconductor industry, the early computer chips of the modern sort. Nasa was one of the biggest customers that literally built the American semiconductor industry, because NASA needed a consistent supply of them for Apollo, and they needed to be reliable. So so there’s all kinds of stories from the last 50 years, basically, that that NASA not just created markets for technologies that would then later, uh, I should say, not just use them, but literally created markets for industries that the US would then lead in for decades. So that’s really my answer to that question is it’s it’s not a negative. It doesn’t actually cost us anything. It actually returns much more than we spend. And as for the oceans, I agree there’s we know more about other planets than we do about parts of the ocean. And I imagine if we if we had that sort of scientific commitment to the oceans, we probably have similar economic returns also. So. So that’s that’s my answer. And, um, I hope to be part of sharing that more broadly. So I’m really glad that you asked me.

Lee Kantor: So for you it’s an and not an or like we should be doing more kinds of research and studying all kinds of things, including space and the oceans. It’s not like we should be cutting back in either.

Jeff Nosanov: Right. And the Arctic and the poles, I mean, there’s there’s the big the I think one of the challenges that science communication faces is you can’t really prove that spending money here is going to produce benefits there. But you can look at you can look backwards and show that it almost always does. Another example from Apollo is this is actually something that a distant relative of mine worked on. Um, basically any kind of, uh, kidney Dialysis that that any kind of device that that does kidney dialysis, it that technology that allowed that to be invented was developed under the Apollo program. It was used for fuel filters and things like that. But but that kind of membrane technology was developed for exploring moon and then became fundamental to keeping millions of Americans alive today. So. So sometimes you have weird connections like that. Nobody would have expected that to be an output of the Apollo program. Um, but it was. So we, uh, we should be doing things like curing, trying to cure cancer. But, uh, it turns out that if you set even not more ambitious goals, if you set really ambitious goals like sending humans to the moon or Mars, it turns out you have to invent a lot of stuff along the way. And there’s really creative people, uh, who take those inventions and say, well, we can actually use that for this or that. And those things go on to create enormous markets, uh, in industries and of course, in the other in the case I mentioned save lives. So. So again, it’s I could go on about this for hours but but it really does not actually cost us money to do this exploration. It makes us money eventually.

Lee Kantor: Right. And but it’s just hard to tell people that they should spend money now on things that there might be unintended consequences later that’s going to benefit everybody just by being this curious and this, uh, trying to solve problems that are hard.

Jeff Nosanov: Right? Right. And, and, uh, I think a, a mixture of short and long term research is probably the better the better policy. But but it’s hard to have those kinds of rational policy discussions right now. And I’ll leave that there.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, in your work over the years, is it, um, is there any like what are the qualities of a young person? Are you seeing more young people attracted to this? Are they getting kind of burnt out?

Jeff Nosanov: Um, actually, you know, there’s there’s it’s a wonderful time as a young person to be going into space and scientific fields because, um, there’s huge amounts of, of small companies that are entering the market. I mean, SpaceX really showed that, that individual companies. Now it helps if you’re if you start with $1 billion or more. But there are a lot of small companies that are, uh, that are making meaningful advances and not just in the US. So it’s a great time as a kid to fall in love with space. And, you know, uh, political wins here and there aside, um, the whole world is really embracing these, uh, these technologies and companies. Um, and so it’s, it’s I would encourage anyone to study these things. And again, if you study physics, if you study engineering, these are this is objective reality, right. Like you can it’s never bad to study objective reality. We need buildings to stand up straight. You know we need bridges to stay. We need plans to fly. Um. And sometimes I think in, in our in our day to day community and, and social and political lives, it’s easy to forget that, um, we need our cars to operate without engines exploding. You know, we need we need to respect nature in that way. And physics and engineering. It gets back to to what I was saying earlier about, um, um, it’s never a waste to to learn and explore because that’s the real world that we live in. So, um.

Lee Kantor: Right. But it seems like the we’re always trying to have that balance of yeah, that’s great that it it’s almost like a nice to have where we got to have, you know, things working here like air traffic controllers have to do their job today and, you know, going to Mars. It seems like a nice idea, but I don’t know if I need that today. But, you know, in order to go to Mars, we got to do work today. Um, that won’t show up for five years.

Jeff Nosanov: There’s a great example from 100 years ago that there were people exploring quantum physics. And it was it was this was right after the, the, the the person who ran the patent office who famously said, I think in 1890 something. He said, oh, uh, every everything that’s been invented is everything that will be invented, has been invented already. And this was 1890. And so you have these scientists studying quantum physics, which was was incomprehensibly unrelatable to people. But it but then 20 or 30 years later, the computer was invented. And it those principles absolutely underlie every single minute of every single day of every single person on earth, because otherwise our electronics wouldn’t work and our computers wouldn’t work. So. So a nation, uh, you know, an organization ought to have a kind of short, medium and long term, uh, approach to these things. So, yeah, we need to solve the immediate problems. But if we don’t, if we don’t explore the unknowns, you know, first of all, someone else is going to and then they will lead those industries. Um, but, you know, it takes a balance.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you know which kind of, uh, I’ll call it a quote unquote moonshot. Should you be focusing in on? How do you prioritize? Like, you know, a lot of people want to go to Mars now. Uh, people are exploring the edges of the galaxies. Um, how do you and you mentioned this, you know, going doing research towards the sun. How do you kind of prioritize and go, you know what? This is where we have to put our chips.

Jeff Nosanov: Sure. Well, that’s another great question. And, and, uh, it reminds me of a really interesting scenario that happened in the, in the late 60s, which was, you know, when you, when you’re when no human being or no machine has ever left the Earth, You know, it’s pretty obvious where to go, which is to go up, you know? Uh, and the first place to send humans is pretty obviously the moon, because it’s the closest thing. It’s the easiest thing to get to. It’s obviously still exceptionally difficult, but it’s still the easiest thing. And NASA had a real question after that, which was, well, now what? Now that we’ve shown we can leave the earth and send machines and even people places. What do we do next? And and the history of NASA since then, which I could again go on all day. But I’ll try not to. Uh, it kind of really reflects that question. I mean, um, NASA started sending robotic vehicles to other planets first to Mars and Venus, which were the closest ones in either direction, and eventually leading to having sent robotic vehicles either to or past all of the planets in the solar system. And, you know, we haven’t sent humans anywhere since other than than the space station.

Jeff Nosanov: So so that’s a really important question. What do we do next? And the way NASA handles it. Kind of connecting back to my work is with with competitive proposal opportunities, where the federal government, through the National Academies will basically say, here are some scientific questions of interest. And they’ll actually be a sort of competitive process where organizations build teams and they say, well, okay, we have these technologies. We can go, we can go explore the rocks on Mars and we can ask the questions about life on Mars, or we can go study the clouds of Venus and so on. And so there’s no great easy answer to your question other than an ongoing, ongoing discussion between experts and policymakers and and people like that. And, and what we’ve seen throughout the history of NASA since then is pretty much all of those challenges will yield and demand technology developments that become useful elsewhere. Um, so again, another great question. Uh, there’s no easy answer to it, but the history of what we’ve done so far kind of, I think shows a pretty reasonable approach.

Lee Kantor: Now, what about the input like you mentioned earlier, of now you have billionaires that have pet projects. Um, and, you know, they have resources to do some interesting things. Um, are they kind of skewing those priorities to what their kind of interests are?

Jeff Nosanov: Uh, that’s a very interesting question. And it and it I’ll start off by talking about space. Space. What they did basically was there was a business observation that the bar for contractor performance for the federal government was actually really low. And I mean by contractor, I mean the aerospace contractors of the late 20th century that were building rockets, uh, they were really good at at making a lot of money on SpaceX launch. And what SpaceX realized was that, hey, if we build this all in-house and we we charge for it roughly at cost. Plus, you know, a modest fee, they could reduce the cost by a factor by, by 90%. And that still is the case. And that’s why SpaceX just celebrated 500 launches of its of its Falcon nine vehicle. Um, now. So that’s a great that’s a really positive example of of industry and, and market forces really reducing the cost of, of a critical, critical need. Now, uh, other subjects, I mean, the, the, the philanthropy of billionaires or, or the investment of, of billionaires can, can really jumpstart a lot of technology projects, uh, in ways that the federal government would take a lot longer to fund. Um, so I think it’s a great it’s a great part. It’s a it’s a wonderful outcome of basically the enormous economic success of the United States over the last 50 years is that there even are people with that amount of money that rival governments in some cases.

Jeff Nosanov: Um, now, what we’re seeing now is, is, uh, is something a little more concerning to me, which is some, uh, some of the wealthiest people in the US actually trying to try to kind of capture some of the what used to be federal government priorities, like medical research and things like that. Uh, in order to then have more control of those services in the marketplace. At least that’s my perception. Um, that’s the only way I can make sense again, without getting super political. That’s the only way I can make sense of reducing things like NIH budgets and and research. Uh, is by uh, is by saying, well, if you have the resources to do that privately, well, then you also control that. You control the availability and pricing of the ultimate services. So I think it’s a it’s a net positive Because, um, that kind of largesse can be applied to research questions faster. But, you know, as anything at that scale, there’s there’s going to be some, some ethical considerations that, you know, I think are worth paying attention to.

Lee Kantor: And if the if it was through the government, it sounds like the outcomes or those unintended consequences were for the betterment of all. Whereas if a private company is doing it, then they kind of lock down that new. I mean.

Jeff Nosanov: Yeah, that that’s that’s sort of where that’s sort of the conclusion I’m, I’m coming to. I mean, any specifics are a lot more complicated. I’m certainly not going to argue that the government is the most efficient organization out there. And certainly companies are able to capture publicly funded research for their own private gain. I mean, that happens in pharma all the time. Um, but in principle, at least, having public research organizations and private, I think is a good mix for our society. Um, you know, with, with the acknowledgment that it would take the rest of the day to really break down all of the pieces.

Lee Kantor: Right. But conceptually, though, public private is probably the best thing, knowing that each. There’s no perfect one. And. Right. And it’s going to be messy no matter what. Which way you go.

Jeff Nosanov: And you don’t really want you don’t really want the government operating a factory, a medicine factory, but you also don’t want, um, you also don’t want a single company controlling, all.

Lee Kantor: Right, to have a monopoly on that.

Jeff Nosanov: Right. Exactly. So, so these aren’t really new, you know, economic debates. They probably go back to, you know, the, the, the enlightenment, you know, but but, um, it’s rare that as we’re seeing in 25, there are such drastic changes in these things being, being, you know, put out there, uh, particularly Early today and literally today. As you know, the the the federal budget is in is in debate. So these are all things that that someone competing for federal money would want to keep in mind. And some of the, some of the contexts that I bring to my customers.

Lee Kantor: So what do you need more of? How can we help you? What what are some of the things that you want to accomplish in the short term, in the long term, and what resources do you need to make those happen?

Jeff Nosanov: Well, I really appreciate that that question. I mean, what I always want to do is meet people, uh, who are interested in solving these big problems and whether or not they become my customers is is less important because I just like meeting people like that in general. But I can also help people like that find a pathway to creating something that can can do something big or really help people. Um, so so that’s really what I hope if anyone’s listening, who who works at a company like that, or has an idea or doing some kind of research. Those are the kinds of people that I want to meet.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, if somebody wants to learn more and connect with you, what’s the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Jeff Nosanov: Yeah, it’s, uh, orbital velocity dot space. And I love that both our companies have the velocity in it. Um, and I imagine my email or phone number might be in the show notes for this, but you can just go to my website, Orbital Velocity Space and send me a note there.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your story today, doing such important work. We appreciate you.

Jeff Nosanov: Thank you. And likewise, and it’s a pleasure to speak with you and the the local community.

Lee Kantor: All right. This Lee Kantor we’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Cynthia L. Bentzen-Mercer With Bentzen Performance Partners

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Cynthia L. Bentzen-Mercer With Bentzen Performance Partners
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Dr. Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer, Founder of Bentzen Performance Partners, is a USA Today bestselling author, executive coach, and internationally recognized expert in human capital strategy.

With over 30 years of C-suite experience across industries, she empowers individuals and organizations to challenge limits, invest intentionally, and unlock untapped potential.

She is the creator of the Now, Near, Next career framework, the Human Capital Investment Strategy (HCIS), and the 7-Minute Pivot, a daily practice for meaningful change. Through her masterclasses, books, and speaking engagements, she equips professionals to reclaim their power, reframe their path, and outperform their past.

Connect with Cynthia on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • About Bentzen Performance Partners
  • How 7 minutes a day can help you move towards something better when you feel stuck in your career
  • The first investment someone should make in themselves when everything feels like a loss
  • How the Now, Near, Next framework can help reframe your journey

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

HVR_07022025_CynthiaBentzenMercer_1.mp3

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer, who is the Founder of Bentzen Performance Partners. Welcome.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Thank you so much, Lea. It’s good to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your company. How are you serving folks?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, so I spent over 30 years in corporate America and then had the opportunity to really turn that that time and my passion into serving individuals and organizations. Basically, I work at the intersection of strategy and soul. I help people find what they love to do and make a living at it. And I help organizations figure out how to find those individuals so that they can be high performing organizations.

Lee Kantor: So do you work primarily with organizations or do you work primarily with individuals in their career?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, so I work with CEOs and C-suite executives that are really around succession planning, organizational structure. But a large part of what I do is work with women and men, one on one executive coaching, helping them figure out how to be release their full potential in either the career that they’re in or in a lot of cases. I’m working with individuals that are feeling restless and seeking something new and different, helping them find their way.

Lee Kantor: Is there kind of a triggering moment that they come to a realization that, hey, I need some help here, maybe I ought to contact the executive code?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, unfortunately, it seems to be that that’s when I get the phone call. You know, it would be wonderful if individuals were seeking executive coaching before. They’re feeling restless. Think about any professional sports team or professional people in the entertainment business. You know, most of us have a coach to really continue to hone our skills. Unfortunately, in the business world, oftentimes we we do put it off until we get that that tugging feeling. And our research has found that women in particular are so busy with their head down, working hard, supporting everyone else around them that at some point they look up and they think, oh my goodness, the world has kind of passed me by and I have more value to add, more talent to offer, and I’m just feeling kind of stuck or stagnant. And that’s that’s usually when I get the phone call.

Lee Kantor: Now it’s interesting you brought back brought up sports because I never looked at it kind of holistically in this manner. But pretty much in any professional sport, that person has a coach, and it’s just perfectly logical for them to have a coach like no one thinks twice about it. And they proudly walk around with their coach at their side. But people in business, especially at the levels you’re probably dealing with, they’re probably making more money than those athletes are for the most part. A lot of them. And they are hesitant to partner with a coach. Why do you think there would be such a disconnect where it’s so commonplace in one environment? But in another environment, it’s unusual.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah. And you head on a really a really important point too, right? Well, they’re they’re making a ton of money in the sports professional fields, as you mentioned. You’ve got executives making multimillion dollar decisions that are affecting not only themselves and the organizations that they’re running, but the livelihoods of others. Um, so there’s a lot at stake. It’s it’s a it’s a high risk environment for a lot of individuals. You know, unfortunately, I think the disconnect is when we think about a quarterback or we think about, um, you know, a pitcher, for example, or even a singer or an actor. And it’s really visible that natural talent is so visible. You know, we have coaches to correct the golf swing or to really fine tune, um, elements of the physicality, but that’s all raw, natural talent that they’re continuing to develop. And it seems just really intuitive in business because it’s so hard to put your finger on natural talent without a really clear understanding. I think people are misinformed to think that just time in the job is enough, and then almost that there’s a embarrassment about having an executive coach. I have to often talk to executives about the fact that this is the most important thing you can do to continue to unleash your potential and grow exponentially. This is not I don’t do a remediation coaching right. I don’t work with individuals that that are broken and need fixed. I work with high achievers that want to fully exercise their incredible potential.

Lee Kantor: And it’s. Isn’t it unusual, though, for them to be proactive and hire you before they need you? Really, but just to kind of maintain their skills and to have that sounding board and that, uh, you know, kind of fresh eyes on things, I, I would think that in their work they, they do some coaching themselves and without thinking, but it isn’t kind of as intuitive to hire a coach for themselves. It’s just interesting to me kind of how how they eventually get around to it, a lot of them. But it isn’t kind of an easy move or a go to move early on.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? Right. It usually happens when they are up against a challenge or a barrier or feeling, as we said earlier, sort of stuck or stagnant rather than saying, where can I find somebody that’s at the top of their game that has the kind of credentials that can really push me to think bigger, to step out of my comfort zone, to see things from maybe a different perspective. Um, obviously we rely on the people around us. We create great teams and surround ourselves with great talent. But there’s there’s something unique and different by having somebody who’s purely objective from the outside, that in a safe space is pushing you beyond what you think you can do.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you think that something that might improve this whole relationship between high performers and coaches is if more and more organizations just kind of had coaching as part of what you get when you work at this company. Like if more and more people got to experience coaching, maybe even earlier on their career, they’d be it would be they’d be faster to, um, work with the coach as their career progressed.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Breast 100%. And I mean, there are there are some companies out there that have recognized the value in that. Um, far too few. However, um, thinking about particularly your executive team or individuals that are starting to reach that vice president and above level, they are making bigger decisions affecting more lives, impacting your budget differently. And it isn’t the skill and knowledge that they need to work on at that point, right? The skill and knowledge can be learned that that you can read a book, you can go to a class, you can you can consult. I mean, there’s a lot of places to to build your skills and knowledge. The executive coach really comes in from the perspective of having you lean into the non teachable is how do you take a creativity talent or a strategic agility talent or an influence talent that which is really part of your hardwiring and your DNA. And then working with an experienced coach. Figure out how do you develop that to exponential success, so that you’re really realizing all that you’re capable of, and not limiting yourself to maybe what’s comfortable, because we all struggle with pushing ourselves a little outside of what what feels comfortable from time to time.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with somebody, um, what how do you kind of manage their expectations when they finally have the courage up to to work with a coach? Now you have to have to be on the same page of what is possible, what is, you know, going to be like a longer term, um, kind of a journey. What, like how are you managing kind of, um, kind of the day to day. What am I going to get from this? Like, how am I going to see an ROI? I don’t know, are they even asking you ROI questions about this, or do they understand that this is kind of a you’re going to be in it for a minute. This isn’t going to solve your problems by the end of the week.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? Right. Both. And um, so absolutely. Um, it’s an investment. It, you know, getting a really, um, strong executive coach is, is an investment. It’s the investment in you and and your career and your potential, but also, um, organizationally, for those organizations that are, uh, pouring into and, and funding this for, for the people that they’re relying upon. For me, it really starts with it’s it’s a mutual commitment. Um, out of the gate, you’re going to get out of it what you put into it. So the very first thing that I talk about is really when we talk about coaching, it’s less about me giving direction, advice and guidance. It’s a lot about I ask a lot of intuitive, provocative questions we’re really getting underneath. Barriers that are holding the executive back. Things that are slowing their decision making or in some cases, times that they need to channel their passion differently and and slow down their decision making. What what we know is most people have most of the answers inside them, but they don’t have a safe place to really vet that in a way that they can be vulnerable. They can think through all the options and ultimately find the right end result. And so they’re going to make better decisions. They’re going to going to build a better team. They’re going to have a longer term strategy when they have a place to really, um, unleash all of that, that knowledge and not get in their own way. Men and women both have a tendency, women more so based on our research. Shows that men and women both have a tendency to second guess themselves, to put up barriers or filters just based on past experience or self-doubt. And so my job is to get them out of their own way, and the profitability and the performance naturally flows.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re trying to help somebody get out of their own way, what are you doing that through? Like a rhythm of a weekly call? Are you giving them homework that they do every day? Are you giving them certain tools that they implement, you know, during crisis? Like like what is kind of the deliverable to your clients? Mhm.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: So traditionally I meet with an executive every other week for an hour. That’s sort of the cadence with which we meet. And we start every meeting with two questions. What is the goal they have for that day’s session. And what does success look like. And we have established goals at the beginning of the engagement. Really, the shortest engagement is six months. We’re honestly generally just scratching the surface at that point. A year and beyond tends to be an engagement where we really start to gain a rhythm and see the results. But they can they come to that meeting with. It could be anything that’s in retrospect. I had a conversation that didn’t go well. I’m trying to implement something that doesn’t seem to be sticking. Um, so it could be past tense and we’re unpacking that. Or it could be a future focused. They have a big investor meeting. They have an upcoming board meeting. They’re making a big decision on an acquisition. They need to make a significant structural change. Um, and so the goal may be just getting some clarity around the path forward. And success would look like having that by the end of that call. So we work on very immediate in the moment Situations that they’re dealing with and finding the path so that they can move forward with those. And then we typically have a follow up on the next meeting. How did it go? What did we learn? Um, and then where do you take that? Where do you take that from here? In terms of homework, one of the techniques that I encourage every one of you listening is the seven minute pivot.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: And so what that means is you are spending seven minutes a day focusing on a key prompt that’s most on your mind that day. Most of us don’t take any time to just be quiet and introspective. And so, um, what I encourage you to do is you set a timer. We know neurologically that creates focus. It creates accountability. You set a timer, you get rid of all other distractions. You get a pen and paper. Because we know that that is the best way to sort of get thoughts out of our mind and onto paper and we start with a prompt like what is this? What is the one thing I feel that’s really holding me back in this moment? And then what is one thing I can do today? One small thing I can do today to move and pivot in a slightly different direction, to move forward, to start, to create some energy and momentum. And if you think about a seven minute pivot, when you’re doing your seven minute pivot every day, you are investing 2555 minutes a year. It’s amazing how much you can change the trajectory of where you’re heading. And so living into these prompts, when you take this time, you find that you have more control, more agency and more insight and clarity about where you’re heading.

Lee Kantor: So that’s one of the things you teach your clients is how to do this. Seven minutes exercise is in the morning or evening or doesn’t matter.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: It’s entirely up to. To you. The most important thing is you do it. That you do it. We know in for again studying men and women. Um, a lot of similarities in terms of busy chaos. Not enough time to to remain silent. And for different reasons. So the reality is, find the time in your day that you can unapologetically guilt free. Invest in you. Everyone can find seven minutes, right? And it’s more than five. Less than ten. And it’s just that moment to say, how do I move in a tiny way toward what I’m what I want and not feel like I have to make the giant leap?

Lee Kantor: And that’s a more proof of on the power of compounding.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? 100%. Yes. Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned, um, men and women kind of separately. Is there a different strategies when you’re working with women than you have when you’re working with men?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: So it honestly, it depends on what the goal of the individual. But what I will tell you is, having studied in my first book, now near next, we did a global study of women, professional women, five race ethnicities, four countries, a 25 year age span, multi industry background, all very successful. And the one thing we found specifically in uniquely among women around the world is that at some point and often multiple times, you grow restless, you feel stuck, you feel stagnant. And we uncovered that is because you feel un actualized. You feel like you have more talent to give, more value to add, etc. the difference with our wonderful male counterparts is culturally social norms, etc.. Men tend to be looking up, looking forward. Raising their hand, uh, putting their name in the hat. Women have traditionally been conditioned to put our heads down, work hard, and wait to be tapped. And because we statistically are so busy pouring into everyone else around us, whether that’s raising children, being active in our communities, we’re, you know, leaning into our spouse’s career or our partners profession is that that is a convenient opportunity. Right. So we we dutifully put our head down, we work hard, we pour into everyone else. And then at some point when it’s not too late, but definitely to the point of really feeling uncomfortable, we’re sort of frustrated with the fact that why haven’t we been promoted? Or why aren’t we in a different place from a salary perspective? And so around the bean answer to your question, oftentimes more often when I’m working with women, they are coming from a place of I have more that I want professionally, more aspirations that I want to lean into. And I’m working with them on intentionality more often when I’m working with men, um, I’m working with them on continued talent development, succession planning, um, strategic decision making. It sort of depends on where the client is showing up.

Lee Kantor: Uh, I interviewed a coach who coached women, and they brought something up to me that I had never heard of. But maybe you can kind of validate this if this is what you found as well. Uh, they said that when they work with women and a lot of women won’t apply for a job unless they have every single criteria of the job, where a man will say, like, I’ll figure it out. Like, close enough. I’ll figure it out. Number one. And number two is, if offered a job, the man will negotiate more times than not, and the woman will just say, yeah, it will just agree without negotiating.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yes. There’s actually some Harvard Business Review did a study years and years ago, and it’s been it’s been validated multiple times since that. Exactly. That that, you know, women tend to want to tick all the boxes. So if I can’t tick 9 or 10 out of ten boxes, I don’t apply at all. Just as you said, where men and I always say this, I say this to you, you know, you women listening it. This is not an indictment of men. This is we need to steal a page out of your playbook, right? We we need to we need to be looking up and looking forward and and leading with talent and know that we too, can learn and figure it out on the job, just as our male counterparts have the confidence to do so. And not only do we often do, women often not negotiate, but when when you do negotiate Eight. As women. It is apologetic. I’m sorry, but if it. You know. I really was hoping this or that. Um, rather than just explicitly negotiating the agreement I’ve had. I’ve had clients apologized to me for, uh, various things, wanting to negotiate agreement or move things around. And I’m like, okay, time out. The very first thing we’re going to do is we’re not apologizing for this. You know, I’m celebrating the fact that you have agency and that you are, um, looking out for yourself and you are advocating for yourself that is to be celebrated, not apologized for.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with women in this manner, is this something that is like an aha moment or is it something they feel uncomfortable with, or do they begrudgingly kind of go along with this when you bring this up?

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: 99% of the time it is, it is either an aha or it is a yeah, I know I really need to work on that very self. I don’t know that I’ve ever come across somebody that where it’s been begrudgingly, because they’re really coming from a place of wanting more and showing up, wanting to actualize their full and boundless potential and and a bit wondering why they haven’t yet. So it’s either a oh, that makes sense that that that qualifying language is holding me back, or my own limiting self narrative is holding me back and or they’re aware of it, but they just don’t know how to get out of their own way. And so we work on confidence. We work on using more affirming language. We work on their own narrative track, um, and for sometimes with minutes, um, and women. But it can be the opposite. Right. It’s, it’s sort of how do you channel that energy in a way that, um, people are going to be more open to and perhaps less off putting?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I would think that, um, fear is holding the women back and overconfidence is holding the men back like. Bingo.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah, absolutely.

Lee Kantor: Like, the man thinks, yeah, I got this. No problem. And they don’t got this, and it is a problem. And the woman is not attempting to try because they feel like they they don’t want to screw it up, so they won’t try that.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That is right. And again, that’s a generalization.

Lee Kantor: Right. Right. I’m not talking about every individual.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yeah. For you who you know you may be thinking well gosh that seems you know, that seems like a real line in the sand. But I would tell you statistically based on research and data. That’s absolutely right. And, um, in some ways, I’d rather say, whoa, you know, whoa than giddy up. I’d in some ways it’s, it’s easier to work with somebody. You’re trying to slow down a little bit, um, than than sometimes lighting a fire. Um, But. But when? When the ambition is there and you can see what is holding you back. And that the limiting narrative in your head is what is keeping you from really realizing all that you have to offer. That’s that’s when the awakening starts, and that’s when you really start to do the work and, and then see the fruits of your labor. And the beautiful thing for the individual, which is why I say work. I work at the intersection of soul and strategy for the individual. It’s self actualizing. It’s it’s fulfilling. I begin to make more money. I begin to see my aspirational goals come to fruition. And for the leader or the organization, this individual is high performing. They’re loyal, they’re stepping up. They can be part of your succession plan. So, you know, in this workforce that we have today. I mean, that’s a that’s a beautiful thing to have a highly engaged, high achieving individual with aspirational goals to grow within your organization.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I would think that once you kind of get them to buy into what you see, probably clear, much clearer than they do, is that all of a sudden it’s an unlock. And now it’s like the sky’s the limit. Now there’s nothing holding them back. Is some of your work just kind of demonstrating to them? Like showing them like a portfolio of their successes so that they believe that they are worthy and that they can do the thing that they want to do.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Well, I do two things in that regard. That’s a that’s a really great question. One of the things that I find really helpful is to have my client create their highlight reel, not necessarily a video of that, but just for them to sit down. This is a great a great opportunity with the seven minute pivot. They can sit down with a prompt of what are the accomplishments I’m most proud of professionally over the last five years, and they create their highlight reel. So when you do that, you begin to really sort of recognize and affirm, wow, I really have done a lot of things that are pretty important and powerful, despite my own, um, lack of confidence at times. And so we talk about those things and really begin to have you see yourself in a completely different light. And then the second thing is, and this is in my my book that’s coming out in February, Human Capital Investment Strategy is that I am a social psychologist by background. I’m a huge student of positive psychology, and I believe everyone should be using predictive assessments when they’re thinking about selection and promotion. And so my clients have the opportunity to participate in a highly validated predictive behavioral assessment that looks at what are your natural talents, that hardwiring that DNA, that you can’t help yourself at spontaneous. It’s consistent. You do it with excellence, and it feels great when you’re doing it really, which is how we how we identify talent. And and then we talk about those superpowers, you know, we look at what are your superpowers and how do you lean into those superpowers to be the absolute best professional? Um, and oh, by the way, pat yourself on the back in that those those are uniquely your own and the opportunity to develop those to exponential success. Um, it’s right in front of us.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I think it’s so important. I know this was something my wife did that I thought was brilliant. Um, Every year she worked with a big company in corporate America for many years, and she had an annual review. And that was very stressful for her because whenever they would happen, she’d have to remember what she did for the whatever that year. And instead of at some point, she said, you know what? Every time something good happened, I’m just going to put it in the folder. I’m just going to make a folder, and I’m just going to just put it in. I’m not even going to think about it. I’m just going to put it in a folder. And then when it came time for the annual review, she just takes out the folder. Right. And it’s like all these things that may seem little at the time, but you just look at them and you see this big pile that you’ve accomplished in a year. You can’t help but feel more confident. You can’t help but feel that you’re worthy of that raise and like it just changes how you see yourself. Because people just take for granted all the good work they’re doing day after day. They don’t. They’re not clocking it, and it’s just happening and they’re moving on to the next thing because there’s another crisis tomorrow. So this gave her a point where she saw it visually and it’s like, wow, that’s a lot. You know, I am worth this. This makes sense. You know, there’s no there’s nothing holding me back.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: I love that I think that is a great tip. And when you’re having those moments throughout the year where you are questioning or second guessing or wondering if you’re enough or if you are ready, etc., pull out that file folder and reflect on all that you’ve done up to that point. I’m working with a client right now and she falls into a similar category we were mentioning earlier, where she’s hesitant to apply for things that she doesn’t meet all of the criteria, and even struggling, putting her resume together and really having it be a reflection of all that she’s done. And through the process of her refining her resume and looking at these job openings. She said to me recently, she said, you know, I forget how much experience that I have and how much I’ve actually accomplished in all of these areas. It’s just sort of a blur until you start to really put pen to paper. Um, and it was a it was a real ego boost and she frankly needed it. So I think your wife’s, uh, your wife’s tip is an excellent one.

Lee Kantor: And it’s one of those things that when you see it, then it’s easier for you to own it. Like, you don’t have to apologize for it. You don’t like it’s real. It’s not an opinion anymore. There’s paper and facts behind it. It’s not just you, you know, saying an affirmation in the mirror like this is a pile of of data that’s saying that you are this.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Right? It actually, it actually makes me think about some of the, uh, the advice that I give related to when you are pitching, Be it a promotion or a job expansion, or even doing your own self reflection. Self review as part of a performance review is to do just that. It’s to focus on not the feelings or the opinion, but on the data and the results. Because again, referring to women specifically, we have a hard time sometimes owning those accomplishments. We’re conditioned more often than not to be humble and gracious. And so it’s easy to deflect and not draw attention to that, that that oftentimes for women is seen as self-promoting or self advocating, um, in a negative way. And so when when you put that language into the team and I have accomplished X, Y, and Z and we and and the result of that were these data. Then suddenly it doesn’t feel so much uncomfortable, like I’m drawing attention to my my extraordinary, um, results on my own. Um, but I’m doing it through facts and data rather than opinion and emotion. And I’m also when, when appropriate, honoring the people that were part of that.

Lee Kantor: Right. It’s not personal anymore. This is just the facts.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That’s exactly.

Lee Kantor: Right. And that a lot of people take some of these, you know, whether they they get the opportunity or they don’t, they take it personally. And um, so if you can eliminate some of that, then it may make them more confident to, you know, aim higher. Mhm.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Mhm. Right. When you, when, when you take out the I don’t want to brag and you put it into facts and data that speak for themselves. Um everybody wins because you’re more apt to share that information, and the person on the receiving end is more apt to hear it from the language of business. The end result of the behavior or the action.

Lee Kantor: You just might have to help them connect the dots that it was you that were driving it. That’s all.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. Yeah. Every now and then you have to, um. The team and I did that since.

Lee Kantor: Right. Yeah. Sometimes you got to remind people.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Yes, this is true.

Lee Kantor: So, um, if somebody wants to learn more, get Ahold of, uh, some of your books, uh, some of your time, uh, some of your team. What is the. You have a website. You have a best way to connect.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: I do, I do. It’s my it’s my name. So Cynthia at Cynthia Benson mercer.com and my last name, I’m sure I’ll be in the show notes because it’s a unique spelling. Um, I offer a free strategy call so you can book directly with me, um, for a free strategy call just to kind of assess where you’re at and what you’re looking for. And, um, if if I have the, um, what what you’re looking for, and I’m a good fit to get you there. Um, you can also pick up a copy of my latest book, and the one that’ll be out is in presale. And, um, I also do a fair amount of public speaking. So if you’re looking for a keynote speaker for your organization or association, um, on leadership and intentionality, it is one of my favorite things to do. And I would I would love to, uh, love to see you in a conference.

Lee Kantor: Well, Cynthia, thank you so much for sharing your story today. It was such a joy. Uh, you’re doing such important work, and we appreciate you.

Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer: Thank you so much, Lee. Thanks for having me.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Joy Ellen Levin With Gen X Exec Encore

by

High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Joy Ellen Levin With Gen X Exec Encore
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Joy Levin is the Founder and President of Gen X Exec Encore.

In working with Gen X high-achieving professionals, she recognizes that for many, this next phase isn’t about traditional retirement—it’s about creating an encore that blends passion, purpose, and new opportunities.

As a market research consultant and entrepreneur for nearly three decades, Joy has guided executives and business owners across industries in making strategic, well-informed decisions. Like many Gen Xers, she wants a future in which she can remain productive, explore meaningful pursuits, and build new connections.

With an honest, warm, friendly and highly professional approach, she guides accomplished professionals to discover their next purpose-driven chapter, empowering them to create an encore life with confidence and clarity.

Connect with Joy on LinkedIn.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • How Joy’s coaching approach helps clients redefine success beyond the corporate title and accomplishments they’ve held for years
  • What’s one powerful mindset shift that Gen X leaders can adopt to turn uncertainty about the future into excitement and purpose
  • Some surprising opportunities Gen X professionals have taken once they began exploring their next chapter
  • Advice for someone who feels stuck in limbo between the end of their corporate career and the start of something new

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Joy Levin, who is the President of Gen X Exec Encore. Welcome.

Speaker3: Thanks, Lee. It’s great to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to be talking to you. Somebody who’s finally talking about Gen X. The boomers take up too much oxygen in the room, so I’m fired up about having somebody talk about Gen Xers. So tell me about your practice. How you serving folks?

Speaker3: Yeah, so I’m a certified professional retirement coach, and I specialize in working with Gen X leaders. So small business owners, executives, entrepreneurs to really empower them to navigate the transition to their post post-career chapter. So I focus on those who want to design like a fulfilling, purpose driven chapter in their retirement years, and they want to make the most of what is now commonly thought of as an encore, especially for Gen X leaders. So, you know, we coach them to clarify what’s next. Whether it’s launching a new business or shifting to a passion project, or just redefining work and lifestyle on their own terms. So we take them through a series of exercises that guide them to decide what they want to do. That’s in line with their values, because a lot of people who retire now, they have, you know, 10 or 15,000 more days ahead of them, lots of stuff left in the tank. And so we want to make sure that people are using that in an intentional way, to really make sure that they maintain a sense of identity and connection and relevance.

Lee Kantor: How did this kind of evolve for you? How did you get it? You go from whatever you were doing to this kind of work.

Speaker3: Right. So my background before this and I still continue to do this is market research and strategy consulting. So, you know, there were really three things that kind of came together that influenced me. So first of all, you know, as I’m a Gen Xer myself, I understand that we have a unique mindset and values. I mean, all generations have their uniqueness, but in our case, we’ve lived through so many societal and cultural experiences that really resulted in us developing this strong sense of like resilience and adaptability. And we were also raised to be independent and resourceful. But when it comes to what’s next, after a long career, many people in my generation just find there’s no clear roadmap, their expectations. But those expectations don’t always fit into what our aspirations are. So second, my background and market research and consulting also played a major role because for years I’ve worked with executives to uncover insights so they could make data driven decisions. And so in doing so, I’ve always been very inquisitive and analytical and strategic. And these are skills that I now use to guide Gen X leaders through one of the most important transitions of their lives. So just as I continue to work with businesses to find clarity in these complex market landscapes, I’m also working with individuals to gain clarity on their own next steps. And third, I was just inspired by my own journey, really. I went through transitions from being an employee to an entrepreneur to thinking about what will come next. And these were all defining moments for me. So each time I’ve experienced firsthand the mix of excitement and uncertainty and reinvention that comes with stepping into a new professional identity, and I’ve come to realize that many accomplished Gen X professionals face similar crossroads, and they need structured support to create a transition that aligns with their values and goals.

Lee Kantor: Can you talk about that transition when you went for from. You know, I’m working and now I’m coaching. And now, as a coach, I have to go and find a client. So I have to convince somebody that I can help them with this challenge that they’re having. Like those early clients. Can you talk about how that transition went?

Speaker3: Yeah. You know, so there are really a couple different ways. Um, I sort of have created this framework called from mixtapes to mindset to I’m sorry to meaning because, you know, um, mixtapes are like this huge, iconic thing for our generation. I mean, everybody’s created one. Um, and so they evoke a lot of nostalgia. They bring us back to some of the things we thought about when we were kind of starting off in our careers. And so I’ve kind of used that, and I do workshops and classes about it to reorient people to thinking about, you know, kind of rewinding that tape to the past, but then also reframing it and reinvigorating it to think about the future. So that’s one way. And I also partner with like financial planners and other people who touch retirees or soon to be retirees. Um, you know, and I do all kinds of things for them. And we partner together, um, to show that really, retirement planning is not just about the finance and the money. It really requires this holistic perspective. So, you know, a lot of people feel like, okay, I’m all set financially and yet they retire and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do now. Like, I don’t know what to do with my time. I’ve lost my identity. You know, I’ve been an attorney my whole life or an entrepreneur. And those titles no longer fit. So they have to find something new to replace that with, to make sure that they will have this fulfilling next chapter. Because a lot of people, what they do is they say, you know, I’m retired and then they don’t have a fulfilling experience. So they go back to work and then they’re still unhappy and they don’t really understand why. Or it’s very frustrating. So those are a couple of the ways in which, you know, I engage with people and get them thinking about, you know, how can they create this very intentional, purposeful next chapter.

Lee Kantor: Do people of that generation think when they’re retiring that like it’s just going to be golf and fishing? Like, is that is there a picture in their head that maybe isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be?

Speaker3: Very much so. Yeah. And it’s so funny because that’s one of the analogies I use. People say, you know, I’ll play golf. And then, you know, after not too long, you’re like, I have, what, 25 more years of this? And to just think of doing that, it’s just not getting at the ambition they’ve had their whole lives. So there is definitely some misconceptions. They think, um, you know, they will just find their way. Um, and sometimes people are lucky enough to do that. Um, a lot of times it’s through a lot of false starts and delays, and so they waste a lot of time trying to figure that out. Um, whereas people like me who coach them can get to that much faster and help them to recognize, you know, what it is that’s going to carry them through to really have a next chapter that’s not just, you know, like you said, playing golf or fishing, but doing things that are really meaningful to them. And it could be volunteer work. It could be, like I said, starting a new business. It could, you know, just be so many different things. Um, but it really requires a lot of thinking and, you know, working through some exercises and assessments, I take them through to figure out what that’s going to be. And it’s, you know, it’s very unique for each person.

Lee Kantor: Now is it ideally you want to get to them before they’ve actually retired. Well, maybe they’re kind of have a year or two of working still. So you can maybe lay some groundwork and foundation.

Speaker3: Yeah, exactly. Usually a couple years is ideal. Um, because a lot of times they when they don’t do that and they just fall into retirement, then they kind of drift and they feel like I should have this figured out and I should not be feeling bad. Like, there’s this whole thing about, oh, you know, you’ve worked your whole life and you’re retired, and isn’t it wonderful? And there’s this psychological thing that goes on where people say it’s not wonderful. They’re thinking to themselves, this is just I mean, I just have nothing to do, and I just feel lost. And so ideally, it does help to start a year or two before you retire. So like you said, you lay the groundwork. You can start putting things in motion so that once you do make that big transition, you’re really ready to make the changes that you want to make in a way that will be fulfilling.

Lee Kantor: Now, I’ve met quite a few people recently that have maybe been laid off a little sooner than they thought they would be, and now they’re kind of a little untethered because like you mentioned earlier, when you work for, you know, big company, um, you’re used to people returning your calls or knowing you as that person. But when you’re just yourself, um, you know, without kind of that corporate identity around you. Life is a little trickier.

Speaker3: No doubt. Yeah. And, you know, it’s like they lose their relevance. And that is a terrible, terrible feeling. I mean, you know, they’ve gone, like you said, from these roles where they were thought of as a point person, as somebody with knowledge and wisdom, and all of a sudden they’re adrift. And so that’s a big thing that we work through, is making sure that they stay relevant in both their social lives and their identity in their relationships. Um, you know, it’s kind of this full view of what it takes to live this fulfilling life. So, yes, I agree with you. You know, there are people who you just feel very unmoored, and it’s a very uncomfortable feeling.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think that a lot of it stems like they thought that maybe they were the secret sauce, and then they realized that maybe their company was the secret sauce and that people, you know, aren’t as interested in themselves as they were when they was themselves and the company. Like I, I just think it’s a almost like an identity crisis. You know, at 50 or 60.

Speaker3: It’s definitely identity crisis for sure. And it’s either that or they just have thought of themselves as the one that people to go for, for answers or insights or whatever it is. You know, somebody who ran their own business, who knew so much, and it’s not like, you know, they retire and those things go away. They still have that knowledge. And so there’s a lot that’s also going on slowly but surely in the workforce about having these intergenerational workforces where these people who have gathered all this wisdom and knowledge and experience can really make a difference in, you know, helping people who are just entering or their mid-career to kind of shortcut some of the mistakes they made, um, and bring that different perspective that they bring from all those years of experience. And like I said, because they’re Gen X, they have these unique experiences that have helped shape their views. And those can help as well in kind of recharging a workplace and bringing different perspectives to the workforce than you would get from either, say, millennials or Gen Z or whoever else it is.

Lee Kantor: So can you walk us through what kind of those early engagements with you are like, is it a lot of kind of, like you said, assessments and asking a lot of questions just to kind of understand where they’re at mentally.

Speaker3: Yeah. So like I said, you know, this this framework I’ve developed is really inspired by the concept of a mix tape. So something very iconic. So in the context of what I do, it becomes this curated collection of these meaningful experiences and lessons and aspirations. So there are kind of these different phases that we go in and out of as we work through these exercises. You know, first, the rewinding right is looking back on your past experiences and really identifying patterns in what is either energize them or drain them over the years. And that way we can start to, you know, have some ideas of, wow, these are the things that are going to light me up going forward. And these are the things I want to kind of avoid. And then we get into this remix stage where we explore some new possibilities by blending, you know, existing skills that they still have. Like I said, it’s not like those get shut off, but we kind of blend them with fresh interests. So it’s about reimagining work and lifestyle and purpose in ways that feel, you know, exciting and aligned. And then we do a reset where we let go of some outdated definitions of success and limiting beliefs, because we want to work on shifting the mindset from what I used to be to what I want to become.

Speaker3: And some people say it’s like a shift from retiring from to two. But it’s more than that. It’s retiring with, because you do bring all of these experiences and skills into this next chapter. And then we do a reconnect where we work on strengthening relationships and building new networks. And many times, you know, I work with people that feel the need to redefine their social and professional circles to match these evolving aspirations. And then it’s about reviving, right? It’s about stepping into action with confidence and clarity, because this next phase is about making intentional choices that create what I call fulfilling encore life, whether that means entrepreneurship or impact driven work or new personal pursuits. So really, the framework ensures that they don’t just retire, they reinvent, and they get to really live out some of the values that they may have lost touch with, that they can re-identify and power them forward into things that have a lot of meaning for them.

Lee Kantor: Now, as most of your work, one on one coaching? Or do you kind of create your own mix tape with a bunch of your clients so they can, you know, create some mashups and maybe some unexpected community?

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, I do both. Um, you know, I teach this framework through courses and workshops. So I do that and then I also do one on one. Typically, you know, people go into a workshop and they all of a sudden have more questions and they want to work on things in a more customized way. Um, and so then we’ll go into the one on one from there. But it really varies. People come in from a lot of different directions.

Lee Kantor: Is there a story you can share? Don’t name the person, but maybe explain where they were at and how you were able to help them get to a new place.

Speaker3: You know, there was an attorney I was working with for some time. Um, and she was really beginning to think of what would be next. Um, and started thinking about some of the things she enjoyed. She missed some connections. She missed some experiences she had, um, and she also realized that, you know, after a career of working in such a fact based field for so long that she kind of missed some of the creativity and things that she could kind of imagine. And so she decided to think about writing a book. So, you know, she kind of went from an attorney to be an author. And because she was going to be retiring, she was kind of able to take that in her at her own pace. You know, she didn’t have to worry about deadlines anymore or, you know, aside from those that are self-imposed, which I think are important because otherwise you just kind of drift. So, you know, she was able to figure out, okay, what are my goals for this book and when is it going to happen and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it’s just so gratifying to see people who really rethink some of their old beliefs and ways they perceive themselves and really be able to kind of, you know, take this new direction in life.

Lee Kantor: So if you put your market research hat had on how does the Gen Xers kind of fare when it comes to the nimbleness to make these kind of transitions? Do you think that they are kind of uniquely qualified to be able to have a nice second act or third act?

Speaker3: Yeah, I think in a lot of ways they are, like I said, you know, it’s a very resilient and adaptive generation when you think of, you know, all the things from, you know, gas lines in the 70s and the energy crisis all the way up through, you know, the.com bust when we were in our careers, they’ve seen so many different changes. When you just think of technology. I mean, we were the generation that was still growing up with typewriters. And, you know, those changes without anything else is a lot. So, you know, because of that resilience and adaptability, they’re able to often make the shift a little bit quicker. But at the same time, they are the first generation to grow up without like pensions. Social security is at risk. And so they’ve had to rethink, you know, kind of the assumptions and expectations that other generations have had so that they can create something that’s still meaningful for them in a way that they can live it out, um, in their own way. So it requires both, you know, these, these adjustments, but they have that resilience that oftentimes the adjustments are a little bit easier to make, I think, than other generations.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. It’s going to be interesting how the digital native folks handle this.

Speaker3: Yes it will. Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s like you think about how a lot of older boomers, you know, really struggle with some of these digital enhancements. I mean, I think of, you know, people I know that it’s it’s really hard. Um, and so this is the first generation where they may not be as adept, you know, to or adept to doing these things as some of the younger people, but still they have enough that they’re able to navigate that pretty easily. And, you know, you just think about the changes that might be coming. You know, it wouldn’t surprise me if we ended up with in not a short period of time. Robots that are able to do a lot of the tasks that we require from people, you know, once they’re in their 90s, a lot of people need help. And so we may have robots being able to do that kind of stuff. And what that will mean for Gen X in terms of being able to live not just longer, but in a more fulfilling way, even into their, you know, later years.

Lee Kantor: Right. Especially you’re seeing a little bit of it now with a lot of this autonomous vehicles.

Speaker3: Definitely. Yes. Yeah, I mean absolutely. I don’t think it’ll be long before those types of vehicles are, are, you know, make a huge, huge difference in not just Gen X as they retire, but in people with disabilities and in all kinds of it will open the doors, I think, for a lot for a lot of people.

Lee Kantor: Right. I mean, just look at how a lot of the people in our generations had to have that hard conversation of taking the keys away from our parents, where it might be less painful for our children than us. Because there could be an autonomous. We can just summon a car and it’ll come and pick us up.

Speaker3: Exactly. Yeah, I I’ve lived through those conversations so I know what that’s like and yeah, very, very difficult. So yeah, maybe that will be one of the things that, you know, millennials and Gen Zers don’t have to worry about as much and similar with the care. You know, there might be advancements in care because we’ve you know, what we’ve done is expanded longevity, but we haven’t caught up with all the other things that go into making a life fulfilling as you live longer. So, you know, I’m optimistic that those things will come faster and more easily to this generation and make a better, you know, longer lasting life.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And you make a good point about how this generation is the one that went from analog to, to digital. So having kind of a monumental change like that, Um, you know, we were able to kind of see what the before and after look like. But if you’re digitally native and you didn’t see a dramatic shift and it’s always been this way, it’s going to be interesting how they handle those kind of monumental shifts.

Speaker3: Oh, definitely. And you just imagine some of the shifts that will occur after them that their kids will be seeing. And, um, probably things we can’t even imagine right now.

Lee Kantor: So now, um, what kind of is the, I guess, the anxiety or the discomfort that a client is having before they become your client? Is it something that does something have to happen to trigger a call with you, or do you get, like you mentioned, referrals from my financial advisors and people like that, that they just probably say, hey, just go and and talk to Joy. But what like what’s happening were they’re like, you know what, maybe I do need help.

Speaker3: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a lot of what we’ve talked about where it’s not necessarily one event. It’s, you know, realizing that the expectations they had, um, and just the way things are set up are not really serving what they need. You know, when you think of Social Security, it was set up for people who were going to live, you know, maybe 5 or 10 more years after retirement. And that’s just completely not the way it is anymore. It’s 30 or more years. And so it’s really sometimes it’s an extended period of time where they realize, okay, I’m doing like little chores around the house. That can be one trigger. A lot of times it’s a spouse that says, you know, I cannot see you on the couch anymore. You have got to get up and do something. And so sometimes that’s it. Um, you know, it’s a variety of different things. It is often not one event. It’s kind of this pervasive feeling of, I know there’s more out there. I, I just don’t know what it is or I, I’ve wanted to do this thing, whatever it is. But I don’t know how to get from point A to point B and what are the kind of minefields in between doing that? So, you know, and also it can be more than one thing. I mean, you can easily set up what I like to call a portfolio life of, you know, you have in your financial portfolio different assets and different combinations of things.

Speaker3: And it’s the same with a lifestyle where you can say, okay, I’m going to do this volunteer, I’m going to do this passion project, you know, I’m going to spend this kind of time doing this other thing. And so you bring into your life variety and often that’s what’s missing, is people feel like I’m doing the same thing every day, and I don’t need to be doing that. Like I used to have a job where I did the same thing every day. But there’s so much else out there, but they just don’t know how to figure out what that is that aligns with what they want. Or like I said, they’ve identified something and just have no idea how to get there. So that’s some of the instances where a coach can really help them, not to tell them what to do. But you know, that’s not what a coach does, but to kind of be a sounding board. Offer suggestions, work through some sort of scenarios, and like I said, do some exercises and assessments that help them to identify, you know, this is maybe something I thought of, but I’d forgotten or something I never even thought I wanted to do. But now it makes sense.

Lee Kantor: And you mentioned spouses. Do you do also work with the client and their spouses that unusual or is that the norm?

Speaker3: No, it’s not unusual. It’s I’ve worked with couples, um, you know, and it’s it’s interesting because, um, sometimes you’ll see patterns where, you know, one person in the couple feels one way, and sometimes there’s a lack of communication, you know, where, for example, you know, one person and a couple will say, I just want to travel a lot. And the other person saying, I don’t think I want to do that kind of hassle or whatever. And then once they get talking and realize, you know, really drill down into what they want, it often can be okay. We want to take 1 or 2 trips a year, and that way the person who wants to travel get gets what they want. And so does the person who really isn’t that into it, who’s just like, okay, a year or a week or two a year, I can manage. I cannot think of, you know, going from place to place months on end. And that wasn’t even what the travel person was thinking of. So a lot of times it’s just having these conversations and, you know, seeing where there’s room for compromise and, you know, understanding what the expectations are because these are conversations, you know, that people just don’t have.

Speaker3: A lot of the conversations are taken up with finances, um, whether it’s a couple or whether it’s just somebody thinking about what they want. They have been so conditioned to making sure they will have a good enough financial life that they have not thought of all the other stuff, so it’s a matter of having these conversations to really bring things to light that can be really very unifying or kind of serve up the ability to work on a compromise to find something they both like. And I think, you know, one of the things that when I work with couples is also very, very important is that they each have their own social lives. They can certainly have a social life together, but it’s so important for them to have their own hobbies and their own kind of tribe that they can explore things with, because there’s just a lot of differences. And, you know, it’s not like when they married, for better or for worse, they weren’t marrying to have lunch together every day. They were, you know, doing other things. So it’s it’s very important for them to approach it, not just as a couple, but for two individuals as well.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story today. If somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you, or learn about all the different programs you offer. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Speaker3: Yep. They can go to my website, which is, um, Gen-X encore.com. Um, they can email me. Jay Levin at Encore Life. Com. Um, I’m on LinkedIn. Um, they can just look up my name, Joy Levin, and they’ll find me. So I encourage them to reach out and we’ll have a conversation. But I really enjoyed this, you know, talking about this. I so love it that it makes me realize that this is something that, to me, is very fulfilling.

Lee Kantor: Well, Joy, thank you again for sharing your story, doing such important work. And we appreciate you.

Speaker3: Oh you’re welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Carol Urton With Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting

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Carol Urton With Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting
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In this episode of High Velocity Radio, host Lee Kantor talks with Carol Urton, CEO of Carol Urton Coaching and Consulting. Carol discusses her journey from corporate life to becoming an energy leadership coach and team strategy consultant. She explains the concept of energy leadership, the difference between coaching and consulting, and how tools like the Energy Leadership Index Assessment help individuals and teams shift to more productive energy states. Carol shares practical examples and insights on reframing challenges, fostering collaboration, and transforming adversity into opportunities for growth and innovation.

Carol Urton, ACC, ELI-MP, Certified Professional Coach Author & Speaker and CEO of Carol Urton Coaching & Consulting.

She is a dynamic and accomplished professional with over 40 years of experience in both the corporate and nonprofit sectors. Before transitioning to her full-time coaching and consulting practice in 2024, she served for 10 years as the Senior Director of Corporate Responsibility for a major global organization.

Renowned as a trusted leader and innovator, she has dedicated her career to empowering individuals and organizations to reach their full potential. As a certified professional coach, author, and speaker, she combines her expertise with her passion for inspiring others to lead an epic life filled with significant and transformative moments.

Her holistic approach to personal and professional development is grounded in her mastery of the Energy Leadership Index Assessment®, enabling her to assist clients in uncovering the energy patterns that drive their success. She holds an ACC and is accredited by the International Coaching Federation (ICF).

She is also a highly sought-after speaker and facilitator. She delivers impactful keynotes, webinars, and workshops on growth mindset, energy leadership, and overcoming barriers to success. Her thought leadership is shared weekly through LinkedIn articles, where she provides insights tailored to leaders and professionals seeking growth.

Her diverse career reflects her dedication to combating ageism, fostering inclusion, overcoming childhood trauma, and empowering others to reinvent themselves in the face of life’s challenges.

She is currently working on her upcoming book, The Lemon Myth: Knowing When to Stop Trying to Make Lemonade and Reinvent Your Life, which delves into the art of personal and professional transformation, highlighting themes of joy, fun, and resilience.

As a triathlete, she understands the mental stamina required to achieve monumental goals, even those that seem impossible or merely a dream. She applies the same determination to her coaching practice. Her services are essential for leaders, professionals, and those navigating pivotal moments in their lives. Her tagline, “Let’s work on your tomorrow… today!” reflects her proactive and results-oriented philosophy.

Connect with Carol on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • What inspired Carol to pivot into coaching and consulting, and how that decision changed her life
  • Energy Leadership and the Energy Leadership Index Assessment
  • Most common challenges high performers face today

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Carol Urton, who is the CEO of Carol Urton Coaching and Consulting. Welcome.

Carol Urton: Thank you for having me, Lee.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am so excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your firm. How are you serving folks?

Carol Urton: Well, I am an energy leadership coach, a team strategy consultant. I’m also an author and a speaker, and so I have many different ways to reach my audiences with the information and help that they need or want.

Lee Kantor: So let’s talk a little bit about energy leadership. And can you explain that? I’ve never heard that term before.

Carol Urton: Yeah. So it’s a framework that was developed by the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching. And we really take a look at energy. And it’s not the energy that you use to run down the street. It’s more of mental energy where you’re spending it, how you’re spending it and where you resonate most of the day. And so it’s really based on, you know, we all have a way that we look at the world, the lens in which we view things just based on the current circumstances that you’re in, or just background information, things that you’ve experienced during life. And I can give you some examples of those in a bit. But, you know, we all resonate at a certain level most of the time. And then when we hit some sort of stressor, we can really drop down into lower energy levels. So it’s based on anabolic and catabolic energy. Catabolic energy is very high stress, cortisol, adrenaline producing energy. And that is something that people operate in a lot. It’s not sustainable. Um, I like to explain it. If if you’re being chased by a lion, you need a lot of, uh, that type of energy to run and get away. But it’s not sustainable. You can’t keep running that way for long periods of time. And then anabolic energy is more of a building up, uh, energetic, uh, growth type hormone energy that we operate in when we’re in more of a visionary, problem solving, innovative, uh, type of energy.

Lee Kantor: So what’s your backstory? How did you get involved in this line of work?

Carol Urton: Yeah, so I got involved. I was in the corporate world for many, many years and was at my current corporate job. I just left that a year ago in August to pursue my coaching practice full time, so I’ve been building that on the side for about three years, and I really was operating in some of those lower energy levels. There was a lot of stress. There was a lot of, uh, resources that weren’t being provided for my team. And so I found myself in a time where my attitude was kind of not great, and I didn’t like that. So I signed up for a coaching program and realized once I got into that, how helpful it was and how I had actually, most of my life been coaching and mentoring people and really wanted to have a specific framework to do that in. And so I went ahead and got certified as a coach and have continued my training, uh, ever since. And so it’s been really great because everything throughout my life, uh, from, I’m going to say, from birth until now has led me to this point where I really have found my purpose and the calling that I believe I was put on this earth for.

Lee Kantor: So your first foray, foray into coaching was being coached. Is that what you said?

Carol Urton: Yes, that is correct.

Lee Kantor: So then through going through that process, that was kind of the aha moment of, hey, I am doing a lot of these things or this really resonates with me, how this interaction is going. And then you thought, well, maybe I can pivot into coaching.

Carol Urton: Absolutely. In fact, you know, I was being coached. I’m like, boy, I really want to be on the other side of the desk. So I, you know, talked with my coach about it and went ahead and, uh, you know, went through the training to, you know, really be and I did go through the Institute for Professional Excellence and Coaching. I think it’s one of the the best coaching schools out there. And so it has been very helpful in building this new career.

Lee Kantor: Now, in your firms, um, the name of your firm also includes consulting. How are you kind of discerning the difference of when the coaching ends and the consulting begins, and vice versa?

Carol Urton: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, you know, in coaching we really, uh, walk alongside and you know, it’s similar but then it is different. So consulting is more going into an organization and taking a look at how they’re operating and giving specific, um, advice and guidance based on my knowledge and experience of being in the corporate world and also the nonprofit sector. I’ve done a lot of nonprofit work, and so that’s a little bit different. Uh, the coaching piece is more partnering with my clients to help them, uh, be the best that they can be, get from point A to point B, but it’s not directive. It is more exploring, uh, And asking the right questions to have them come to their own conclusion on understanding what they want and need to do and what they’re capable of. You know, a lot of us go through life and just need a little encouragement. We can do a lot more than we think we can do, and we’re much more talented and, and, uh, you know, capable than we think we are.

Lee Kantor: So what is your typical engagement? Do you start doing coaching and then the you’re working with a leader and they say, hey, you know, our whole organization might need some of this. And then it kind of bleeds into consulting. Or is it vice versa.

Carol Urton: Uh no. It’s pretty separate. So I will take on an engagement as a consultant. I do have certain clients that really want both. And so we, you know, we have a specific contract based around that. And we’re very clear on when we’re coaching and when we’re consulting. And so it can be a mixture, but the consultant piece generally is just going into an organization and helping them really get to where they need to be.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with individuals, um, what is that? What kind of work are you typically doing with that individual?

Carol Urton: Well, it’s mostly leadership. And most of my clients are, uh, high performing leaders. And, you know, with everyone out there these days, it seems like there is limited time and resources to get the job done. And so it’s really most of the time. The problem I see is people get burnt out, they get stressed. They they’re, you know, leading a lot of people. And there’s a lot of frustration within organizations in the current climate. And so it’s helping them be able to really find a path that will help them be successful, but also bring their people along to be successful. So, you know, I recently worked with an organization that, you know, there was a lot of change going on and people were not happy. And so it was really walking alongside this leader to come up with solutions to get the team going in the right direction altogether. One thing I do is I have an energy Leadership Index assessment that I can give leaders and teams, and so that was developed by IPCC again. And so this assessment really helps people see where they’re resonating on that energy, that energy level. So to to really work through that, when you take this assessment, it tells you where you operate most of the time. So let’s just say you are completely stuck. That’s going to be energy level one. You know you’re You don’t know what to do. You don’t know how to do it. You may be so stuck. You don’t even want to do anything. And so that, you know, is the lowest level of energy. And as you work your way up this energy scale, you know, level two is where a lot of these teams and organizations resonate.

Carol Urton: And that is frustration. Blaming other people for everything going wrong. And so there’s a lot of shifting of responsibility people. Not really. That’s that that very high adrenaline, cortisol energy. And you know, a lot of people can get a lot of stuff done in that energy level because they’re really cracking the whip and, you know, getting everybody in line. But again, it’s not sustainable. And people are just not happy. And so as you work your way up, uh, level three is more, uh, compromise tolerance. You know, this is just the way it’s always going to be. People kind of get stuck there. Level four is the energy level of service. And so a lot of people that I work with are in this service level of energy. And so nonprofits, um, you know, organizations that are trying to serve their clients in the community. And so the service piece is really important to them, and they get kind of stuck there, which isn’t a bad thing. But when you work up to the higher levels of level five, which is, you know, gifts and opportunities, you know, what are the opportunities in every situation. And then level six, more visionary, um, planning. So that’s where we want to get our leaders into the more visionary and planning. And you know, what are the gifts and opportunities, even if things aren’t going well and being able to work through that so they can actually lead their teams.

Lee Kantor: So when you learned about this energy leadership and the energy Leadership Index assessment. What part of that resonated with you is this? Or were you kind of, um, already intuitively, uh, learning and interested in energy and saw, uh, where energy kind of lags and where it can increase? Like, what drew you to energy leadership?

Carol Urton: Well, the thing that has really drawn me to this framework is, you know, we are all in control of our own energy. And, you know, when we talk about energy, it may sound a little woo woo, but it’s really just, you know, how we operate, how we walk through life. And so, you know, for example, if I wake up in the morning and everything’s going wrong and I want to blame my husband for it, you know, that’s a very level two energy. I don’t want to be there. I want to get into the more problem solving, solution oriented level. And when I realize that I’m there, I have the ability to shift into whatever level of energy I need to get the job done, and to live a more peaceful and and happy life. And so people really tend to get stuck in the complaining, the blame game, you know, all of that within organizations or even in life. And so to know that we don’t have to be there, that we can shift that. And that’s what this assessment does, is it really tells you, you know, where you resonate most of the time. So for me, normally I’m in a 5 or 6 level of energy, but if I come up across, you know, something that’s really stressful or something goes wrong, I can temporarily really drop down into the being just stuck. You know, I don’t know, I don’t know what to do. And I don’t know, I just kind of will shut down. And when I know that, then I know to reach out and get some help and, you know, shift into a different Mindset that is going to help me move forward.

Lee Kantor: Now, is that what happens during the coaching you? Once you give somebody this assessment and they learn kind of where their I guess their baseline is, and then you give them tools and skills in order to get out of that and move into the to another level.

Carol Urton: Absolutely. So again, like I said, a lot of my clients are in the level four, you know, level of service. And what happens when you’re so busy serving other people all the time. You can drop into those lower levels because you become burnout or resentful or angry that you know you’re trying to help everybody and they’re not taking your advice. They’re not following the directions. They come to you for help. You love helping people, and then, you know, nothing happens. And so they can get very focused so much on service, not only at work, but with their families and friends. And, you know, they’re always the person that’s coming to to aid everyone. And they can get a little stuck there where if they can mentally shift into, okay, you know, what do I need to do to look at the opportunities in these situations? How can I be a more visionary leader? So, you know, the level six energy of we call it the flow energy where I don’t know. You know, you go to work in the morning and you hit all the green lights, your work’s all getting done and your your projects are getting completed.

Carol Urton: Your calls are going great. You know, it’s just one of those days where you have this, this flow that’s going on that really helps you accomplish a lot. And then all of a sudden, you know, something comes out of the blue and you can get knocked right back down quickly. And so it’s very typical for all of us to move within these different levels. It’s just knowing how to use it and how to be able to again shift when you realize that that’s happening. So my clients use this kind of talk all the time. I mean, they really begin to understand how they can do so much more with just awareness of where they’re at. And so generally, what we do is we’ll do an energy leadership index assessment at the beginning of a coaching engagement, and then we do another one at the end. And then we see what that average resonating level of energy number is, because generally it will go up. And the higher that number, the more life satisfaction you’re really experiencing.

Lee Kantor: Now is there anything you could share? Well, say a person like you said, your typical client is at that service level and they’re they’re going about their business, everything’s fine. Then they boom, they’re up into that area of flow, that level six. And then, you know, just as quickly as they got to level six, something happened and now they’re maybe not for. Maybe they’re three now. Uh, are there any tools or anything you can share with our listener right now? Is there something you can do that once you have that awareness that you’ve shifted downward, that you can shift back upward?

Carol Urton: Sure. In fact, I can give you a real time, real life example of something that happened with me over the past couple of months and how I was able to use this, because I used this to for myself a lot. And so I was asked to speak at my local chamber of commerce to talk about my programs and what I do, and I was really excited about that. I now actually sit on the board of that chamber, but they had asked me to come in and they wanted me to bring some materials with me as well, so that they could pass them out during the meeting and also keep them at the chamber. And I’d been thinking about for quite a while, developing a brochure. So I thought, okay, this is a perfect opportunity. Level five. You know, it’s a great opportunity to get some work done that I haven’t been able to do yet. And so I set forth to create this brochure. I didn’t have a lot of time. So my meeting was on a Monday. They told me they wanted this on a Thursday. And so I had to really, you know, be speedy in getting this done. So I get the brochure done. It looks absolutely beautiful. I send it off to a quick printer that can get it delivered to me before this meeting is going to start. And I get it back and I open it up and lo and behold, I the first thing I see is a typo. And coming from the corporate world, I would never, ever pass out anything in a meeting with the typo. And so instantly I went from this level five, level six, you know, grade.

Carol Urton: I’m going to get this work done. I’ve got it done. I’m ready to go Ago immediately. I’m. I’m A1I am I am stuck, I am, I’m, you know, I’m just there’s nothing I can do here because I don’t have time to fix this situation. So then I immediately went into level two, you know, blaming. Right? I’m super frustrated. Why didn’t the printer catch this? You know, my husband didn’t have time to proof it for me. You know, I’ve got all these reasons why this typo wasn’t caught and corrected before I sent it to the printer. And then I’m going up the level. Level three. Well, there’s this is just the way it is. I’m going to have to just tolerate this situation and live with it. But then level four kicks in and I’m like, you know, this is something that was meant to help people to to explain what I do to, you know, help them with their businesses and their leadership skills. And so, you know, that service level kicked in and I thought it could still be useful. It could still be useful in this situation. And then I, uh, I decided, well, what is the gift and the opportunity here? So these brochures came with envelopes. And so I stuffed all the brochures and the envelopes. I took them to the meeting, I passed them out, and I asked the participants not to open the envelopes until I asked them to. So I’m explaining this energy level, uh, framework to them during this meeting. And so now I’m in level five and I say, you know, I’ve got a I’ve got a gift for you and an opportunity for me.

Carol Urton: I’m going to ask you all to open up the brochure. I told them there’s a typo. I asked them to read the brochure in. The first person to find the typo was going to get a free Energy Leadership Index assessment. And so man, they went. They were so excited. Everybody’s you know it accomplished a lot of things right. You know they’re reading the brochure. How many people actually read a whole brochure when you pass it out. And they’re excited because we’ve made it a fun activity. Somebody found the typo and we’re now all in level six because we are working together. There’s a lot of synergy. People are having fun. We’re accomplishing something. And so you can imagine when I left that meeting, I am now in level seven that we haven’t talked about. And that is the level of just absolute pure joy and passion and knowing that I’ve accomplished something and all of a sudden, you know, I’m I’m no longer judging myself for this mistake that’s been made. And that’s one thing that we haven’t really talked about here is that, you know, with each of these levels of energy, judgment becomes less as you go up the scale. So if you’re in level one, there’s heavy judgment of yourself and others. And the higher you go up the scale, the less judgment there is. And if we’re operating without worrying about our performance or, you know, judging other people, we really open up the possibilities to, uh, have new, uh, new opportunities and energy and just, you know, the the possibilities are unlimited.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And it it sounds that and that’s a great lesson that you were able to take something that you at one point perceived as a negative. And now it became kind of an Easter egg hunt. It was a fun workshop that got more people got, uh, enjoyment and understanding, a deeper understanding of what you do. You demonstrated it and it came alive.

Carol Urton: Yes. It was it was a it was a very fun day for everyone.

Lee Kantor: And now are you going to just build that into future? Um, talk’s having a typo.

Carol Urton: Actually, yes. I’ve shared it with with my colleagues who are going to, uh, kind of build a. Yeah, because this, this concept is without being coached through it and doing the assessment, sometimes it can be a little bit hard to explain, but once you, you know, really begin to understand the concept, people can use it immediately. And, you know, people that are listening to the broadcast today, just, you know, being aware that we all, again, have the ability to decide how we’re going to react in every situation and taking a pause and really thinking about that and trying to figure out what the best outcome is going to be. And generally, you know, the level two energy of frustration and blame is not going to help anyone.

Lee Kantor: Right? And this type of thinking, it helps people go from that, uh, adversity into, uh, something that’s more productive and can lead to more successful outcome?

Carol Urton: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just the concept that everything, no matter, you know, good or bad, can be turned into a gift and an opportunity. And, you know, like I said, I had really been working on this concept for most of my life. I wrote a book a few years ago called when Hope hurts. And that book is really to help people who have been through extreme trauma. And so I know in my own life, you know, I really had to decide at one point whether I was going to, you know, let this situation, uh, beat me down or whether I was going to take it out and really, uh, make something good out of a really bad situation. And so that’s where a lot of my, you know, my energy comes from. And knowing that you can overcome anything, you just need the right tools and the right help to be able to do that. And so that’s where just having been speaking on this for years and years, writing the book, you know, being in the corporate world and then finding this profession of coaching and being able to combine all of my, my skill, my experience and, you know, my, my, my life experience has just come to this point where it’s been a beautiful thing to be able to serve other people.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, it sounds very rewarding, and it sounds like you figured out a way to really make that kind of impact that you probably were attempting to do early on in your career. Now you have kind of a through your career and living the life you’ve led. You have now all these tools and resources to really help people, uh, make meaningful change.

Carol Urton: Absolutely.

Lee Kantor: So, um, what do you what’s most rewarding for you now? Is it the coaching? Is it the that the consulting? Is it working individually? Is it a group like do you have kind of a favorite when it comes to working with people and sharing what you know?

Carol Urton: Yeah, I would say all of it. But I really I think where we make the most impact and where I really feel like we’re really making some progress is the team strategy consulting. And so we can take this energy leadership index assessment and we can do it for a group. We come up with a group average. And when the group begins to understand how they all operate, how they operate individually and then how they operate together, amazing things happen. I recently did this for a group of 19 HR professionals, and they came together and just had so much fun. Number one, doing the assessment and the group debrief. But really learning about how they can help each other and lift each other up, they can see, you know, when their colleagues are thriving and moving forward. They can see when their colleagues are stuck or being, you know, getting frustrated. And so it’s a really great tool to elevate the team and get them moving in that more, you know, visionary flow state, even if you are, um, a service professional like in a nonprofit or HR professionals who, you know, serve people all day long and to help them understand that, you know, that can burn you out, but you can use this information to begin to look at, you know, what’s going on with our employees.

Carol Urton: And, you know, how do we turn it into a gift and an opportunity and have more visionary thinking? Um, the second thing that I really love to do is I run an energy Leadership index, uh, Mastermind group. And so this is where I take six high performing leaders. I put them in a group, and we not only do the Energy Leadership Index assessment and debrief individually, but we have a seven week program where we explore each of these levels and talk together about, you know, how what do we do when you know we’re in level one? What are the situations that you have you’ve come across within, you know, your your career and your organization and how, you know, how can you change that? And as we spend an hour and a half each week for seven weeks on each of these levels, it becomes something where we learn from each other and people just grow and flourish. And so that’s been a really successful program. I’ve got one starting in September. And, you know, it’s something that has been really, really impactful for my clients and for me. I learn a lot from my clients.

Lee Kantor: Now, if somebody wants to learn more. Have a more substantive conversation with you about all of the concepts we’ve talked about today. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Carol Urton: Yes. It can reach me@carroll.com. And my email address is carroll@carroll.com.

Lee Kantor: And then that’s spelled c a r o l u r t o n.com. Uhhuh. Well, Carol, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Carol Urton: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Ellen Goldman With EllenG Coaching, LLC

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Ellen Goldman With EllenG Coaching, LLC
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EllenG Coaching was created by Ellen Goldman to provide coaching and training to professionals and entrepreneurs who are worried about their health and happiness due to exhaustion, burnout, weight issues and other health challenges.

Her mission is to help business professionals get self-care back on their daily “to-do” list. Through her motivational talks, coaching programs, and online courses, she shows clients how to integrate health into their busy lifestyles with simple, small steps that lead to massive change, resulting in higher energy, improved focus, increased productivity and overall happiness.

With over 30 years of experience in and fitness industries working as a personal trainer and certified wellness coach, and as a business owner, wife, and mom, she knows first-hand that you do not need to sacrifice your health and happiness to have a successful career.

She is a National Board Certified Health & Wellbeing Coach, ICF PCC, and author of Mastering the Inner Game of Weight Loss: An Easy-to-Follow Guide to Permanent Weight Loss Without Going on a Diet.

Connect with Ellen on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Why it’s so difficult for business professionals and entrepreneurs to keep self-care on their daily to-do list
  • Some simple daily habits to incorporate into the busy days that will lead to greater energy and productivity
  • The key to creating life-work harmony
  • Why it’s so hard to stay motivated and consistent with healthy habits, and what can be done to increase motivation

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show we have Ellen Goldman. She is with EllenG Coaching and we are here to talk about personal health leading to business wealth. Welcome, Ellen.

Ellen Goldman: Hi. How are you?

Lee Kantor: I am doing well. I am so excited to be talking to you about this topic. But before we get too far into things, tell us a little bit about your practice. How are you serving folks at LNG coaching?

Ellen Goldman: Oh, absolutely. Well, first, thank you so much for inviting me to be on today and chat about what I feel incredibly passionate about. So by training, I’m a national Board certified health coach. And of course, health is a wide term that includes holistically, you know, both mental and our wellbeing and our physical health. And how I found my niche or my road that brought me to this very strong belief that personal health can lead to business. Wealth is actually when I first started networking my own company, and I came into this field at a very early stage where coaching was not a very well known industry, you know, executive business coaching, a little bit, a little bit of life coaching was being thrown out there, but nobody really understood what it was. And suddenly here were these health coaches and nobody really knew what it was. And I needed to go out and educate people about a service that can really help them lead a better life, both the ability to thrive, not just professionally, but personally and find the balance between the two. And so I started going to lots of networking meetings, meeting wonderful, smart, creative entrepreneurs and business professionals, people that were growing their businesses. And as they began to know me and feel comfortable with me, they would start to chat and I would start to hear things like, I’ve gained 25 pounds since I started my business.

Ellen Goldman: I exist on 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night. I’m never home. My kids don’t recognize me anymore. And there was just this lightbulb that went off for me that it was like, that’s kind of not the way we’re supposed to be living. Work is incredibly important. We all need to be working not just for financial reasons, but also to fulfill, you know, a sense of purpose. But that should not be our only purpose, and it shouldn’t define our Are days so completely that we neglect ourselves. And one of the first things that gets neglected is self-care. And as a business professional, especially if you’re an entrepreneurial business where you are the what I call the CEO, the you’re the everything person, you know, you do everything. It all depends on you. If you fall apart, that business will fall apart. And so it doesn’t matter how many great systems you have, if you do not have the energy to manage them and do what needs to be done to keep the business growing and thriving, you’re going to fall apart. And that means the business is going to fall apart. And so it was just really important for me to get the message out there that taking care of yourself actually is one of the most important things that you can do to thrive professionally.

Lee Kantor: Now, how does this message really sink in with that? Um, you know, this hustle culture and grind culture that it’s supposed to be 24 over seven and people brag about how they haven’t slept and they brag about how they sleep at the office. And and it seems like it’s almost a cult of sacrifice that they’re, they, they’re thinking that this is what it takes to be successful nowadays. And then you’re telling them, hey, maybe you ought to pump the brakes a little and pause and think about your health when in their minds they might think that they’re slacking if they, you know, go work out or sleep an extra couple hours. Like, how does how do you kind of communicate that message to people? It seems obvious when you say it, but when you’re in the midst of that kind of mindset, and especially if you’re surrounded with other kind of startup founders and they’re all competing with each other. Who can sleep at their office the longest? You know. How do you. How do you get that message through to them?

Ellen Goldman: It’s such a great question. It really begins with a mind set shift. Um, you’re absolutely right. You know, intellectually, it sounds good. But emotionally, making that change is so difficult. I mean, I do think that that is what, you know, coaching in general, no matter what phase of coaching you’re in. Coaching is the psychology of behavioral change. There’s no lacking in education around what we need to do to take good care of ourselves. People know my family is important, and yeah, I should be spending more time with them. And yeah, I know my health is important, but I’ll take care of it once the business is on its way and growing. And you know, but that waiting until is really a problem. So it begins with getting people in touch with what they really want for their future selves and what their values are. So we do a lot of visioning. You know, one of my favorite exercises that I love to do with people and, you know, I’ll do this just for fun when I meet people who ask me exactly the question that you just asked me, I’ll say, you know, take a moment and just sort of, kind of have some fun and play with me and visualize yourself, you know, 40 years from now, you know, and you’re retired and you’re sitting out there on the rocking chair, you know, and maybe your grandkids are sitting out there and looking at you and say, you know, tell me about your life. Was it good? Was it happy? What’s the answer you want to be able to give them? Do you want to be well enough to be out there playing with them? So sometimes it’s it’s like getting them towards this.

Ellen Goldman: If growing the business is towards making my life a better in the future. Being financially stable. Giving to my family. You know, how do I want to look back? It’s almost reverse engineering, which is a huge part of coaching as well because it’s again, it’s not that we don’t know what we’re supposed to be doing, but we don’t know how to change and we are competing with others. Sometimes it means sort of going the other road. I remember many years ago, um, I used to do a talk called Taming the Daily Frenzy, and it’s really based on brain research that sometimes is what connects with, um, business professionals who tend to be pretty, uh, you know, intellectual is to actually show them the research around how the brain was not designed to exist on 4 or 5 hours of sleep. The brain was not Is designed to multitask and how it becomes more efficient when it’s well rested, when it’s working with the proper habits, when nutrition and hydration are backing up brain function. And so when you can show people science evidence based research that shows that when you are feeling well, when you are healthy, when you are well rested, when you are eating well and taking breaks to get oxygen flowing through the body and the brain, that efficiency goes up, errors come down. You actually begin to be able to do more in a shorter period of time. It starts to make sense. Sense enough to say, well, let’s start experimenting. Let’s see what happens now.

Lee Kantor: Is it health and wellness in general it is kind of a long. You got to have a long timeline. This isn’t something that. Oh, I slept good last night. Now? Yeah. Everything is great. Like. Or, you know, I ate well yesterday. Oh, I lost 10 pounds. Like, it doesn’t work that simple, right? Like it’s something you got to kind of be invested in the long run. And it makes perfect sense to lead with all that kind of data and scientific research that says it is so. Because I think a lot of the folks that you’re trying to reach really believe in that stuff. So if, if that, that would resonate. Uh, to me, that’s a great starting place. Is there things that you do once they kind of intellectually go, okay, I’m going to buy in what you’re saying. And I love the way that you framed it in terms of let’s do an experiment. Are there some kind of simple, low hanging fruit things you lead with in order to kind of slowly ease them into this more, uh, mindful and healthy lifestyle?

Ellen Goldman: Absolutely. So I really believe that I am in the business of helping people change their lifestyle habits and be able to easily fit them into the lifestyle that they’re currently leading in the lifestyle they want. So there’s there’s kind of two sides of the coin. One of these is this future vision, you know, really getting in touch with what it is that we’re working towards. What is it that you want in the future? You know, what is it you know, that you want ten years from now? What is it you want 40 years from now? That visioning is a big part of it. But you also, we are a quick fix society. Everybody’s looking for that quick fix. So we’ve got to kind of show people that little changes can actually lead to really big, big changes in the future. So things like getting in the habit of keeping a water bottle on your desk. People don’t realize that fatigue dehydration masks itself as fatigue. Sometimes you’re feeling so tired and you’re dehydrated. You need to be sipping water all day. That’s such an easy thing for somebody to grasp and just do. And they’re like, huh? I do feel different. You know, our bodies were not designed to stay in one place for hours on end. So little things like setting a timer for 50 minutes and when that timer goes up, actually getting up, walking around a little, doing a few minutes of it doesn’t take long. 2 or 3 minutes of movement increases. Brain flow to the brain, increases brain flow to the body. You shut that down. You feel better doing this consistently. Suddenly you notice, gosh, I’m not aching so much at the end of the day anymore.

Ellen Goldman: But that doesn’t hurt. Well, that’s because you didn’t spend eight straight hours in a chair. And, you know, it’s little things versus I can’t tell somebody who’s existing on four hours of sleep at night. Okay, I want you to start sleeping eight hours. Like, I, I don’t think that’s happening. But can we begin to experiment? Let’s squeeze out 4.5 hours. Let’s kind of stick with that for a little while. How are you feeling? Is it changing your day a little bit? No, I don’t even really notice it. Okay, let’s let’s start inching to five hours and you take it over time. One of the. I think sleep is so essential. And again, this goes back to showing people and sharing the research with them. No matter what you want, no matter what your goals are, whether it’s stress relief, whether it’s weight loss, whether it’s getting fit, or whether it’s just being more engaged and present for your family. Just kind of what your ultimate goal is when you are not sleeping. Your emotional limbic brain is lit up all the time. It’s almost like in crisis and you can’t think straightly, so you don’t react appropriately and you won’t have the stamina to work on other goals if you can’t think straight. Sleep is a foundation to start with. But again, those little habits, you know, getting up, moving, drinking water, taking a ten minute lunch break. I speak to so many people who go, you know, hours and hours and hours without fuel in their body messes with the brain. You know, the brain is what we’re using to work.

Lee Kantor: Now, what is kind of the trigger that gets people to even, um, open their eyes to, hey, I better make a change, because a lot of folks, um, you know, it sounds like a good idea, and I’ll get to it when I get to it, but is there something that usually is a trigger? When it comes to working with you? Is it is it lead with maybe weight or does it lead with a health crisis? Is there something that happen in their life where they’re like, I better contact Ellen?

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. Yeah. Often? Yes. Unfortunately, some of it is the scary wake up call. You know, the yearly checkup at the doctor where the doctor says that your blood pressure is high and your cholesterol is high, and gives you a prescription for a whole bunch of pills. And, you know, early middle age individuals. I was like, oh, my God, I don’t want to be living on pills. You know, maybe you get the pre-diabetic, um, diagnosis. You know, those things are unfortunately the fear based. But it sometimes is a start. Others quite often it is weight that that is a big draw. I early on started because I come out of the fitness industry, and weight loss was a huge part of my practice. You know, they find me because of that, because they’re just uncomfortable, you know, carrying around 20, 25 pounds. And whether it’s the spouse or the doctor or even their kids saying you got to take some weight off, you know, that is the driver, but they don’t even recognize that weight loss is, again, holistic. It’s not just about what you put in your mouth and how you feed your, you know, how you move and exercise. Stress is a huge calling point where people begin to feel like the stress is unmanageable. And it’s scary that, you know, they’re they’re just worried that they can’t focus anymore because they feel so much stress. The hamstring call, what I mean by I mean the, um, the hamster. Sorry. Suddenly waking up that feeling like I’m a hamster on a wheel that will not stop. And this is not fun. I don’t like the way I’m living. I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. But I don’t even know how to get off. Those are the types of calls that will draw somebody to say, I got to try something different. And so coaching is a really unique option to help people make behavioral change that they may feel very highly motivated to do. But despite that motivation, they’re still struggling to make a significant enough change that it actually changes the way they feel when they open their eyes in the morning.

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working with your clients, is there you mentioned earlier about coaching and how coaching, you know, might have started more in a business or professional athletes space. And now it’s kind of evolving and it’s changing. And there’s a variety of different coaches for a variety of different things. Is there, um, are people like, proud? Hey, I got a coach, and I’m working on these things. Or is it something that, like, you’re, like, a best kept secret? Like they don’t want other people to know that. Hey, I got a coach, and that’s why I have more energy.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah, that’s actually, to some degree, very true. There still is. It’s not as bad as it used to be. Um, but sort of that same feeling of, you know, most people don’t go around and advertise that, hey, I’m working with a therapist. That must mean there’s something wrong with you. It kind of became this when it’s coaching suddenly became an understandable career. Uh, people were a little when it came to private coaching, not the coaches that are now in corporations who literally recognize the importance of the health aspect, companies bringing in not just executive coaches to help people, um, deal with the many aspects of business relationships with their coworkers being leaders, things like that, that they have to actually hold hands with the health coach because it is the foundation of how we show up every single day. So yeah, there’s definitely a little bit of like, I don’t really want people to know about this because they think that it’s shameful to ask for help. Shameful to say, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have it all together. However, it starts to shift a little bit in the same way that personal training did. You know where it’s like, hey, I’m taking great care of myself. So I’ve invested in myself by hiring a coach to help me be my best me to to show up in my full potential. So I think it depends on, um, for the individual where they sit with their own kind of self-confidence and self-esteem Around how they’re going to, whether they will share or they won’t share.

Lee Kantor: Now, I would think that this is a place where. Organizations and companies can really help. If they make it a benefit or a perk, then it becomes a status. You know that I have a coach. You know that I’m worthy of a coach, that they can really, you know, help with the shift of of eliminating some of the shame when it comes to working on yourself and improving, uh, kind of some of these issues that you’re talking about.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. Yeah. So early on, um, I had several clients who were able to use their, you know, EAP to actually get some coverage for coaching. Um, we are definitely seeing so, so without going too much into the history of health coaching in particular and how it has grown, um, in 2017, I believe, uh, I’m pretty sure that was the first year The National Board certification for health coaches became available. I have seen a huge shift since there is this board certification to companies being interested in bringing on coaches because they recognize it as a, um, a, you know, industry standard. Coaching started out with people thinking it’s this like, you know, woo woo thing you do that isn’t based on science, but the best coaches who’ve had the best education, it is based on science, you know, it is based on physical science. It is based on positive psychology. And so the corporations themselves are feeling more comfortable. You know, I’m I’m in private practice. I’m at the end of my career. So I’m not that involved in what’s available out there. But when I first became a coach, there were no jobs. There was only the entrepreneurial route. But now it’s shifted because companies are out there looking to bring coaches on to help their employees thrive. Companies are recognizing that a happy, healthy employee is actually a better employee, you know? Um, so but they’re all when you look at those ads, they want National Board certified coaches. They want people that have the education behind them.

Lee Kantor: Now, if you were.

Ellen Goldman: Giving, that’s a great.

Lee Kantor: Thing. Yeah, I do too. I think that um, and like you said, that it’s it’s trickling down to, uh, everybody in the organization. It’s not just for the top, uh, C-suite. It’s not just. It’s not kind of remedial to fix, Bob. You’re you’re trying to you’re showing that coaching is a benefit for every employee, and everybody should have access to it, if you can afford that. But what advice would you give an organization if they want to change the culture into a coaching culture and, and incorporate, you know, a coach as part of the benefit package or, or the services they’re providing their people. Is there some do’s and don’ts you’ve learned on how to kind of integrate coaching into a workplace?

Ellen Goldman: Yeah. So I think it begins with that C-suite. It has to begin with the people at the top embracing this idea that we can accept a culture in our company where we do value health, where we do value personal life. You know, years ago, it would be like, you know, you were supposed to show up to the door and leave your personal life outside. You know, you didn’t talk about any problems. You didn’t talk about your family, maybe at lunch with your colleagues, but no. You know, don’t be emotional on the job. But people are starting to recognize that’s unrealistic. You know, we are a whole person all day long. We can’t just do that. And trying to do that impacts the way that we work. So it’s got to begin with the culture that that C-suite has to adopt, that culture that it’s okay that we believe this is a benefit. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It’s not going to impact me. But the other part of it is it is imperative that that company recognizes, and I and I had personal experience in a wonderful opportunity that I had with just a very early on, smart CEO who recognized this and found me and had me come in and create a program for his employees.

Ellen Goldman: And I had to sit with him and explain to him that I’m going to hear a whole bunch of stuff. Some of it might be things that they don’t want you to know. They’ve got to be able to trust in me that behind that door, that coaching door, you know, the work door closes, the coaching door opens. Everything they say is totally within confidence there. You know, I can’t share that information with the C-suite. I remember when I was working with this company, I was the first one to know when women found out they were pregnant. I knew who was thinking about leaving. I knew who was struggling with depression, even though they were supposed to be their top salespeople. I found out this stuff, but they had to feel secure enough in me that the that the work they did was confidential, but I wasn’t sharing that. And I think that both sides of the coin have to understand that both the C-suite managers, etc., and the employee. So I think that’s a very important part. But it’s also one of the most beautiful things about coaching, whether it’s Coaching, you know, in this arena, whether it’s when I’m working with a weight loss client, you know, I’m beginning because I’ve been around for a while.

Ellen Goldman: Some of my followers, they’re getting towards retirement now, rethinking their life and getting a little concerned about what’s the next chapter. I didn’t plan it, but I’m finding occasionally I’m doing a little of transition work, you know, life changing, retirement planning type of work with some of my clients. But the underlying thread, no matter why somebody goes to a coach that I think is the gift of coaching, is finding yourself in this incredibly safe space where you can get all those crazy thoughts out of your head that, you know, you think if anybody heard you say that, they would think you’re nuts. You can actually get them out in a place where there is absolutely no judgment. There is that safety net support. And last but not least, the accountability that comes when you make a decision that I’m going to work towards this, that somebody’s going to keep you accountable, but they’re also not going to judge you if you’re struggling. I think that is the gift of coaching. We, not many of us, have that space in our lives where we can talk about some of the things and our struggles or our fears in that safety place where somebody who’s not emotionally attached to you and will never judge you.

Lee Kantor: Right. It’s a safe place for support and accountability. So you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds. You’re getting that sounding board, but you’re also getting kind of a person that’s going to say, well, you said you want to do this. Did you do this? And, you know, holding them accountable for that. And if they didn’t do that, then you go, well, why didn’t you do that? You know, like.

Ellen Goldman: Yeah, but but the way the. Why didn’t you do that? It’s funny that you phrased it that way. And I’m not picking on you at all because people don’t realize that Y is a very defensive word. People, why didn’t you do that? And they’re like, oh, like a versus. Okay, let’s explore the challenges that showed up this week that stood in the way of you following through with your intentions. It’s a really different way to say, oh, I didn’t do this because I chose to, you know, stay late after work and work on this project rather than head to the gym. You know, and talking about what was going on in your mind and what’s your, again, the long term goals that you’re working towards. Are they still important to you? How can you work around this? You know, if this shows up again, you know, going to the gym feels really important. But also finishing the project feels really. Maybe I should be going to the gym before I go to work. This after work plan is just falling apart. Okay, let’s experiment with that. So it is this trial and error without ever feeling like you. There’s no. You’re a good boy today. You were a bad boy today. Never. Like, what did you learn? Training people to be reflective around their behaviors. Understand what the drivers were. Because when you understand and you become reflective around your behavior, you become way more proactive than reactive.

Lee Kantor: Now, at this stage in your career, do you have kind of an ideal client? Is it an individual or do you work with organizations more? What is kind of the ideal client for you?

Ellen Goldman: So mostly, most of the work that I am doing right now is 1 to 1 in personal. You know, coaching clients that come to me. I also it’s I do work for the company that I trained with, mentoring new coaches who are going through the certification process. They need to work with mentor coaches before they can sit for their oral exams. Um, so interestingly, from that work, I have found a lot of health care professionals that are exploring the entrepreneurial journey and we do a lot of work around. Is that really the best nest path for you? And if it is, how are you going to go out and get your first clients? So that’s kind of on the professional end. The other side of it is when when I somebody reaches out to me, the first thing that I offer them is a what I call a strategy session, where we get on the zoom or phone or FaceTime, whatever they want, and we really explore. And this is a no strings attached meeting. We explore. Why are they reaching out for coach? What is it that they are looking to accomplish? And it is just as important for me to determine is this a good fit for me as it is for them to determine? Am I a good fit for them? And my clients range in gender.

Ellen Goldman: They range in age. They range in where they are in their professional life. But typically most of them are pretty driven professionals working. Or again, I’m starting to see this getting ready to think about retirement and what’s my next chapter going to be. But it’s diverse. It’s more important that we connect and vital to the people that I work with. I believe that physical health and wellbeing and mental health and wellbeing is the baseline that we have to begin with for any change that you want in life, and so they have to be grasping that. Yeah, I kind of think that’s right feeling I’m not a business coach, You know, if somebody was to call me and say, you know, I need to figure out, you know, how to grow in my career. Probably not me being the best coach for them. And I’m going to be honest and tell them that because, you know, what do I want? At the end of the day, it’s not just to keep bringing in clients, it’s the clients to go out and rave about the work that we do together. It has to be a good match.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, connect with you. What is the website? What is the best way to connect?

Ellen Goldman: So the website is WW. Coaching.com. They can reach me via email at ellen@lng.com. Um, and um yeah. Like let’s have a conversation. I love my strategy sessions because it helps me learn more and more about what it is that people need out there where they’re struggling. And I love meeting people. Social connection is a huge part of who we are as individuals, and so there is nothing to be lost from a conversation and maybe a lot to be gained if you recognize that. You know, my passion getting people to thrive both professionally and personally. Wake up in the morning and be excited about the day ahead.

Lee Kantor: Well, Ellen, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Ellen Goldman: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me on. I love chatting and talking and, uh, I hope that this resonates with your audience.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Michelle Gale With Michelle Gale, Ph.D., LLC

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Michelle Gale With Michelle Gale, Ph.D., LLC
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Michelle Gale, Ph.D., Managing Director of Michelle Gale PH.D. LLC.

PCC is a life, career, and leadership coach for women with decades of experience in coaching, clinical psychology, and career counseling. She empowers her clients to make tough choices, navigate personal and professional transitions, cultivate a healthy sense of their own authority, manage relationships effectively, and achieve audacious goals.

Dr. Gale is certified by the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and has a doctorate in clinical psychology from Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia.

Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Her transition from practicing clinical psychology to coaching
  • How are psychotherapy and coaching different

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Michelle Gale, who is the Managing Director of Michelle Gale PH D. Welcome.

Michelle Gale: Thank you Lee.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn about your practice. Tell us a little bit about the work you do.

Michelle Gale: Okay. I think I’m going to tell you the evolution of so that it makes some sense.

Lee Kantor: Okay.

Michelle Gale: Well, I became a clinical psychologist because. Because I grew up in a family with a father who was violent And an alcoholic. And, um, he gave my mother and I a very hard time. And, you know, as a kid, I mean, you don’t have language for this. You don’t. I mean, you can’t even really think about it. You just know something is not right here. And, um, so I grew up, and I learned, you know, that’s called domestic violence. And it’s a huge problem. And it happens around the world. And so, you know, out of the desire to keep other women and children from having to experience the kind of stuff my mother and I experienced, I became a psychologist. So I’m practicing along and I’m doing fine. I like it a lot. It’s a fit and, um, my body goes, goes haywire. I become unable to tolerate the simplest things, the food I’m eating, the, you know, the personal care products I put on my face, the clothes I’m wearing. I mean, you name it, my body went haywire. And it took a little figuring out. I mean, it was some some scary months there. And finally I got a diagnosis. This is called chemical sensitivity. And I’m reacting to chemicals that most of us just, um, will you go through your day and you neutralize these things. But I was reacting to them, which actually goes back to my father and his smoking. That’s that’s another story. So, you know, back then, um, psychology was done only in person. I mean, in order to be able to succeed as a clinical psychologist, you’ve got to be able to invite Strangers into your office and have conversations with them.

Michelle Gale: And all of a sudden. I’m like, um, you know. Do you smoke? Do you wear perfume, Cologne, aftershave? And it becomes impossible, you know? It just becomes impossible. So, um. Well, I mean, I had to spend some time getting a handle on what was going on with me. Physically. I had to calm myself down, um, my body down. And then a friend of mine suggested, what about coaching? And, you know, back then, coaching was often done remotely, whereas psychotherapy, you had to show up in person, you know. So, um, I transitioned to coaching and I have been coaching for, um, years now, like 13 years, 12 or 13 years. And. So at first I didn’t know, okay, what do I do with the skills and the perspective and all that I have as a coach? How does that translate? And um, and really I’m doing I’m working with a very much the same sorts of things as a coach as I did as a psychologist, except instead of working with often with diagnosable mental illness, you’re working with people who are more, you know, um, like, I don’t want to use the word normal. That’s a whole conversation, whether there is a normal. But but people who are functional, you know, highly functional, um, and, um, you know, have have issues to work out in order to be able to achieve their personal and professional goals.

Lee Kantor: So is your approach in helping them similar? Like do you go about the work that you do in a similar way, whether it’s psychology or coaching, or are they totally two different modalities?

Michelle Gale: You know, if you look from the outside, you would say you are doing the same thing, but they are actually very different modalities. One. One is a medical modality. It’s a form of medical treatment, but it uses talking. The other one is a learning modality. Coaching is a learning modality. You’re not treating anything. You don’t have diagnoses, you know. Um, and people sometimes like show up for coaching and they really need therapy or, or vice versa. And so I end up having to explain with some frequency. So in, in psychotherapy, um, you’re going back to the root of the problem, which is invariably in your childhood. And so you’re kind of, you know, your gaze is turned toward the past and you’re sorting out the experiences that you’ve had, who’ve made you you know, who you are today. Um, in coaching, you’re you’re dealing with the present and the future so you can deal with issues from your past as they show up in the present, you know, but but you’re not going back to the roots and of those issues and straightening them out, you know, kind of from the beginning. So, um, it really is two very different methodologies. One another difference is that, um, coaching is very targeted. I mean, people come in and you say, okay, what do you what do you want to accomplish here? You know, and you work toward those goals which sometimes evolve. But you have the the client has goals and you target those goals kind of relentlessly. Um, whereas psychotherapy is much more open ended, you know, and, um, something comes up and, and it seems like there might be something fruitful there. Okay. You go work on that for a while. So, um, the thing about coaching is that it tends to be faster. In other words, the coaching engagement is generally shorter because it’s very targeted. You know, you’re working on one or 2 or 3 very specific things. And when you achieve those things, then you’re done.

Lee Kantor: So are the outcomes kind of similar or are they like like if you spent um six months with a therapist. Would you get a similar outcome of spending six months with a coaching client, or is that probably not?

Michelle Gale: No. Probably not. I mean, six months of psychotherapy. So you’re probably deep in sorting out. Um, the, the, the early issues that you kind of bring with you through your life, um, and that color your perceptions and your responses and reactions wherever you go. Um, you’re probably in that somewhere in six months, you know? Um, six months of coaching. Um, you you’ve set some very specific goals. Like, you know, I want to get a new job. I want to get a promotion. I want to figure out whether I want to stay married to this, to this man or not. Because generally I work with women. Um, but not always. Um, just, you know, targeted goals. And you’ve worked in a focused way on those goals in six months. You know, depending on what the goals are. You you could very well be complete.

Lee Kantor: Now as a practitioner or both. Do you? Or do you still do the psychology or.

Michelle Gale: No. You know, I, I, um I let go of the psychotherapy and of course, now in this post-Covid world, psychotherapy is done remotely, just like coaching. But I’m kind of in a different, you know, I’m in a different world now. And, um, I, I, I just coach now.

Lee Kantor: So.

Michelle Gale: Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m just trying to understand now that you’ve, you’ve experienced both and you’ve had success doing both. Is there one that like, are you liking coaching more? Like, is it more fulfilling? Do you like having that? Oh, I help the person solve a problem and then they feel good, I feel good, and I move on to the next person. Or was it more rewarding to spend a lot of time over a long period of time with somebody to get to the heart of the matter?

Michelle Gale: That’s a hard question to answer, and I’m going to say that. Um, each has its pluses and its minuses. Um, I really liked them both. I mean, they’re very similar sorts of things to do. And the way I understand it, I mean, the way I experience it. Michelle Gayle coaching is, is looking through the eyes of a psychologist. I’m a coach who looks through the eyes of a psychologist, which is which is different, you know, than what most than what most coaches do. Um, so I bring. You know, I bring, um, I bring some things with me that that, um, other coaches probably wouldn’t have available to them and gives my work, um, a uniqueness, you know, um, I’m very happy coaching. I was very happy doing psychotherapy. You know, it’s kind of like. Do you do you prefer chocolate ice cream or do you prefer pistachio ice cream? Well, maybe it depends on the day. You know, I like them both.

Lee Kantor: Now, is your work in, um, coaching? Is that one on one? Like, I assume that your work with the clinical psychology with one on one? Or is there also kind of group and, um, cohorts and things like that in coaching?

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um, well, in both coaching and psychotherapy, you know, um, you can have individual, you can have couples, you can have a group, um, as a coach. Most of my work is individual, but, um, I’m actually, um, working on designing a a small group experience. Now that I’m looking forward to launching in the not too distant future that that I’m excited about. Um, so, um, I do individual and I will soon be doing group and, you know, as, as a psychologist, I did individual couples, I did family, I did group. I mean, um, it’s that’s a fun thing, you know, that that you can do different sorts of things. You don’t have to do the same thing day in and day out.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for other coaches that are listening now if they are never done group before? There are some do’s and don’ts of, uh, managing the needs of a group.

Michelle Gale: Absolutely. Solutely. I mean, because you can coach individually. That in and of itself is not necessarily is is is not going to make you a terrific group coach. Um, group. You know, the commonality in both of them, um, is that first and foremost, you have to be able to create a safe space for your client or clients. And this is true in individual and in group. Nobody will open their mouth, you know, if you can’t do that. Um, but group involves, you know, uh, a whole other set of skills about how do you, how do you balance among the people in the group, you know, how do you make sure No one fades into the woodwork and no one dominates that, you know? Um, it’s, um, it’s a whole other skill set, and there’s training and group coaching, just like there is an individual coaching. But before I think out of, you know, out of respect, um, for the work, you would want to get group training before you actually did it.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re working a group or the is the group typically around a topic or a subject matter rather than just, uh, a general kind of type of coaching, like, are they there because they are all, um, you know, want to work on leadership skills or they’re all trying to get a job or something like that?

Michelle Gale: Um, there’s all different kinds of groups, just like there is all different kinds of Individual engagements. Um, I’m going to be focusing the group that I’m working on, planning, um, around a set of, um, like many lessons at the beginning of each group. And then we do we do individual exercises, and then we come together as a group and talk. Um, that’s the way I’m going to be doing that. But but there’s a lot of room for creativity there.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for the individual that maybe has never had a coach before? What are some do’s and don’ts when it comes to starting a new coaching uh, relationship with somebody.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Well you know item number one with coaching I mean if you go to a psychologist and they really are a licensed Psychologist. You got a whole licensed psychologist there. But if you go to a coach, coaching is a little more of a Wild West at this point. Um, there are coaching credentials, but there are people who coach who don’t have any credentials. So it’s a real good idea to start by making sure the person has a coaching credential. Often, especially in the United States, that would be ICF, the International Coaching Federation. But there are other, um, you know, worthwhile credentials that coaches have. And if you have a coach who’s put up a shingle and they don’t have any credentials, I mean, no, they don’t know what they’re doing. Don’t go to them. Um, that would be the first thing. Uh, the second thing is, you know, these things are very personal. Um, there. Someone could be a very competent coach and just. There’s no chemistry there. You know, like, the two of you don’t like talking to each other very much. Or, uh, the coach really doesn’t have the expertise you seek. So it’s a personal thing. You know, you go, you have a conversation, and you see what you think. I mean, is this a person in whom you think you can place your trust over time? Of course, you don’t start out with trust. You start out with, um, okay, I don’t know. But over time, does this feel like a person that you could come to trust? And if the answer is yes, then that’s a real good place to start.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you manage the within the coach? Coach, I guess. Relationship. Um, how do you how does the person who’s being coached. Kind of. Decide, okay, this person’s asking me hard questions or is asking me to do things I don’t want to do, and I’m uncomfortable. But maybe that’s in their best interest, and maybe that’s the role of the coach to be pushing them and to, you know, not just being their friend and supporting you, you just but by, you know, if you came here to accomplish this, you’re going to have to do some hard things. And you’re a person who can do hard things. So I’ll, you know, help you get through it. But ultimately you have to do the work in order to get the result you desire. And how do you kind of know that? Oh, I, I don’t like them asking me to do hard things because it makes me I’m nervous about doing this and I’m scared. So how do I know that that coach is the right coach for me, or should I just pull the plug if I’m, you know, not feeling it?

Michelle Gale: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Um, so, you know, the coach doesn’t really, um, a good coach doesn’t set goals for the client. You know, you don’t ask the client to do stuff. You facilitate the client and deciding what is their next step, and you support them and being able to do it. I mean, you don’t like a good coach does not push clients. And if you did push clients, you would just lose them very quickly. I mean, you know, we it’s a collaboration. You you as a coach, you like walk alongside the client. You enable the client to do things that the client wouldn’t be able to do on his or her own. But it’s the client. It’s the client who decides. Okay, you know, I’m up to this. I’m ready to do this now. This is my next initiative. Not the coach who says, go out there and do that thing.

Lee Kantor: But isn’t there some point? There has to be some accountability. Isn’t some of the coach’s role to be the accountability partner, to say, hey, you said you were going to make these five calls. How many did you make? I made one. It’s like, well, you’re not going to get to where you want to go. If if the goal, you know, you say you’re gonna do five and you did one.

Michelle Gale: Okay. Yeah. I mean, there is certainly accountability and you’re in service of the client. So let’s say you said you were going to do five calls, but you did one. My response to that is not where are the other four calls. You’re never going to succeed like this. My response to that is And how come you didn’t make the other four? You know what all happened there? Unpacking it and looking with the client at what happened. How was it that you got through? One. I mean, was it that bad that you didn’t get to the other four? What? What’s going on? You know, and and you work with the client, you discover, you know, if there’s a block there. What? What’s the block? And how should we deal with it? But you don’t like, um, you know, give the client a scolding because they they didn’t keep all of their agreements. I mean, we do the best we can, you know, and if and people who show up for coaching, well, they need a little help. We all need help, you know, at times.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with a client, did you have early on, um, a sign that, hey, I think I’m good at this. I’m going to be able to pull this off. Like, were you getting kind of the positive responses that you were looking for or your clients were getting success quickly? Like, were there certain signals to you that was like, okay, I’m going to be able to make this transition from practicing clinical psychology to coaching. You know, I’m getting a lot of signs that I’m on the right track here.

Michelle Gale: Well, yeah, I mean, I would say the first sign was I knew how to do things they hadn’t taught me how to do yet, you know, and, um, that was acknowledged like by people who were training me. Oh, wow. You know. Um, so that was the first sign. Okay, this you’re going to be able to make this transition, you know? Um, and, and as far as my relationships with clients went, um, you know, I had to learn some things, um, really to transition. Um. So. So you take your cues from your clients, like, what are they needing? Um, but. Yeah, people. It’s an individual thing. I’m not. I’m not the coach for every person on earth. You know, just like you’re not everyone’s cup of tea. Some people really like you, and some people will go work with someone else. But, um. But I, as a psychologist, you know, I learned how to create a rapport with people with whom I had nothing in common. Really? I mean nothing. And because you have to be able to do that in order to help them, you know. And with coaching, um. That’s it’s it’s a little easier in coaching. Um, you know, it’s not that great a range, Perhaps of clients, but, um. Yeah. I mean, that’s an ability that I took from psychology that I, that I transferred over to coaching is knowing how to be with a person, you know, to help them articulate what they’re needing and. To help them, you know, go through a learning and growth process that will enable them to get there. And when people feel like you can do that and it’s something they genuinely want, well, they’re very happy. You know.

Lee Kantor: Now when you have a coaching engagement, how do you know when it’s done? Like do they just like you said, an objective early on and say, okay, I, you know, I’m doing coaching because I want to be promoted. So then you work on that and then they’re promoting you and they just say thank you, bye. Or is it something that, um, is a moving kind or the goalposts, constantly moving as people’s life, you know. Once you achieve something, you’re usually looking for the next mountain to conquer.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Yeah. You know. Um. So let’s say you come to coaching because you want a promotion and, and you know, however many months were maybe a year later you get that promotion, you feel complete. Um, in you haven’t just gotten a promotion. You’ve also addressed all the issues that you needed to address that were in the way of your getting a promotion. You know, so you’ve you’ve experienced some personal growth alongside, um, achieving this objective that, that you would set for yourself. And at that point, you know, people make a decision mostly if you have achieved your goal in coaching, you feel like you’re done. You know that’s what you came for. And you know, you may circle around a year or 2 or 3 later and say, I’ve got myself another real challenge here. I could use some help or not. Um, uh, usually that’s the case. And on occasion, yeah, other things evolve and you decide, you know, now I’d like to work on this, but generally speaking, when a coaching client achieves his or her or her goal, um, they feel complete, and and they leave.

Lee Kantor: So. And then you’re both kind of good with it, and then you just move on to the next client. Is that it sounds it sounds coaching sounds more transactional than maybe therapy does.

Michelle Gale: Well it isn’t. I mean, it’s shorter lived, you know, and it’s more circumscribed. Um, I but the the the part of your question I really want to address, um, is this business about, you know, are you both good with that? And you go on to the next client. Um, I got some training, um, as a coach early on as a coach that said, basically, you know, don’t relinquish those clients easily. You know, keep them around as long as you can. And and I was confused because that’s not what you do as a, as a psychologist. You know, when when they want to move on, they move on whether they’re finished or not. Your job is to let go. Um, and, um, and I got some training early on as a coach that said, no, you know, that’s not what you do. And so I tried that, you know, a few times and actually it backfired horribly. You when somebody is ready to move on, you support them and moving on. You know, you don’t admonish them. You don’t try to manipulate them into staying. People have to do what they feel is right and what they feel is right in the moment. You know, and if you get in their way, it’s not going to go well.

Lee Kantor: So is there a story you can share? Maybe a success story that don’t name the name of the person, but maybe share an example of what the challenge they had when they started with you, and how you were able to help them get to a new level.

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um. One of the things I see a lot of I see people who are in mid-career. Who are still behaving as though they’re kind of baby professionals, not full professionals, um, in that, um, they’re low on self-confidence and they look outside them for approval. In other words, they are still trying to prove themselves when actually they already have. You know, they have whatever credentials they need to do the thing they do. Um, they’ve been doing it for a while, you know, they have they have work. They have a boss. Boss isn’t like, oh my gosh, you don’t know what you’re doing. You should leave. Everybody’s happy with them. And they are still there, like exhausting themselves, trying to prove themselves. This this habit that they learned long ago. You know, as kids, as students, um, of kind of, um, putting the authority outside of themselves, um, as opposed to owning it, you know, taking ownership of, um, their own process, um, who they are as a professional and being able to evaluate themselves. And so I see a fair amount of this and I have to say, um, it’s pretty common among women, but I, I see it in men, too. And, um, and it’s not, you know, these are not people who just started doing what they’re doing a few months ago, in which case you probably are still trust yourself, and that’s the best module that makes sense. You know, these are people who’ve been doing something for years and they’re still trying to prove themselves. So, um, so when I work with someone who’s got that kind of, you know, dynamic going on, and I helped them get to a place where they feel like they know who they are as, as professionals, as as adults and as professionals, and they become more capable of evaluating how they’re doing for themselves.

Michelle Gale: And. Some are much less hung up about what other people see in them. You know, how how other people feel like they’re doing. I mean, not that you become cold and callous and uncaring, but that you’re capable of making your own choices. You know that, you know, you’re a competent professional, you know, and you kind of. You get yourself situated in that so that what happens is, um, instead of your attention being divided and part of you is working on whatever issue you’re working on, you know, for the company, for the client, whatever, um, part of you is working on that. And, and the other part of you is working on, oh my goodness, am I doing okay. What does he think of me? What does she think of me? You know, um, and when you let go of and you can be 100% fully present with the work, whatever it consists of. This is, um, you know, this is a real leap in, in what’s professional development, but it’s also personal development. Those things really aren’t divisible. Um, and, and that’s the sort of thing I often do with my clients. It’s one of the issues I work on. There are others, but that’s an example of, you know, when it works, um, that’s what it can look like.

Lee Kantor: And then once you can get through that, then that’s forever. That’s a, you know, once you can have that belief in yourself and then who you are and what you’ve accomplished, that’s a lasting impact, I’m sure.

Michelle Gale: Exactly. And that’s the thing I think, that people don’t always take into account when they enter coaching, but it’s so important, Written, which is I mean, you not only got whatever the specific goal was that you came to, to achieve. You developed yourself to a point where you know you’re playing a different ballgame now. And and as you said, that stays with you wherever you go. That’s going to go with you. And that’s, you know, that’s the thing that’s so compelling about coaching. I mean, that you’re not yes. You’re helping people meet their goals. And in the moment that’s super important to them, you know, but you’re also helping them develop as individuals. And that’s really why I do what I do.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Michelle Gale: There sure is. Um. It’s Michelle Gale. Um, there’s a contact form on there, and I’m very happy to talk to people who aren’t sure if this is right for them, but are interested.

Lee Kantor: And Gayle is about Gayle.

Michelle Gale: Good point. So Michelle has two L’s. Am I h e l l e and Gayle is g l e shel Gayle p h d.

Lee Kantor: Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Michelle Gale: Thank you so much, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Janice Brathwaite With Workplace Transformations™

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High Velocity Radio
Janice Brathwaite With Workplace Transformations™
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Janice Brathwaite is an award-winning healthcare workforce leader, Organizational Culture Strategist, and Certified Executive and Life Coach with over 17 years of experience helping mission-driven organizations build people-first workplace cultures.

As the Founder and CEO of Workplace Transformations™, she developed the signature Workplace Transformations Method™, a proven five-part framework that helps leaders identify and address cultural misalignment to improve retention, engagement, and organizational performance.

Named Employer Partner of the Year by Operation Able, Janice has worked with health centers and Fortune 500 companies, including Xerox, Motorola, and Procter & Gamble. She holds a Master’s in Management from Cambridge College and is certified in Lean methodologies and organizational culture assessments. Her thought leadership has been featured on podcasts like Reach Radio, JD Hyman, and Notes on Resilience.

She also publishes The Culture Catalyst, a monthly newsletter on LinkedIn. Based in Salem, Massachusetts, Janice brings both strategic insight and lived experience to her work—grounded in her belief that everyone deserves to be seen, heard, and supported in the workplace.

Connect with Janice on LinkedIn and Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • The Problem with PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans)
  • Culture Debt and how it can impact your organization
  • Toxic Leadership

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio, and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Janice Brathwaite and she is the CEO and founder of Workplace Transformations. Welcome.

Janice Brathwaite: Thank you. Good to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us a little bit about workplace transformations. How are you serving folks?

Janice Brathwaite: Well, a while back, probably in 2019, I had come up with this idea and I was thinking about why hasn’t things gotten better for employees? I mean, I’ve been in the workforce quite a long time, and it just doesn’t seem like we’re making any headway. So the question I asked myself is, what’s causing. What kinds of things are causing that. And as I continue to dig deeper and deeper, I realized that it was the foundation on which the culture is the foundation of an organization. And if there’s cracks in that foundation, those are going to be the things that are going to cause your problems. And a lot of people just try to ignore them and say they’ll go away. So I was working in health care at the time. And when Covid came along, I had to kind of put this on the back burner because there was no time when you were in health care to actually be doing anything else but health care. But once things kind of, you know, slowed down a little bit, I made a decision that I was going to leave health care, the place I was working, and, and go do this full time because I really feel there’s a value in what I have to offer.

Lee Kantor: So when you say do this full time, what exactly does that mean? How are you going? Are people coming to you and saying, I would like to transform my workplace. I feel like we have a culture problem. Or are you proactively going up to people and saying you might have a culture problem? Like how did how does your business work?

Janice Brathwaite: I, I actually reach out to to customers, to people in the organization, in organizations. And because I know a lot about health care, a lot of my focus has been, you know, talking to people in the health care area because I was in health care for 17 years. So I pretty much know what’s going on, especially today. There’s a lot of upheaval. So so it’s really a good time to try to take a look at what’s going on. So what I do is I reach out to people I, you know, I write articles, I do marketing, I have a marketing person, and I work with a PR person and just trying to get the name out there because the company and it’s, it’s really it’s fairly new. So building your brand, as you probably know, is one of the toughest things to do. You have to do it in many different ways because you want to get to many different audiences. So that’s what I’ve been doing. And reaching out, reaching out to my contacts in healthcare. I think I’m going to broaden my scope a little bit. I was in community health, but I think right now I need to broaden that out to make it more around medical services, not just community health.

Lee Kantor: So what are kind of some of the symptoms that an organization would be having, where culture might be at the heart of it? Are there some symptoms or maybe some clues that these organizations are feeling a pain, but they aren’t kind of, you know, putting their finger on what the cause is?

Janice Brathwaite: Right. One of the first places I worked with, they called me in because they said they were having problems on one particular floor of this facility, which I thought was kind of interesting in itself. And they wanted me to dig in and find out why that was. Why was that for a particular floor? Having all of these problems. So I met with the nurses first. And of course, nurses are very outspoken. And they’ll tell you exactly like it is. So they were telling me a story about how they were going to outsource some of the triage stuff that the organization, the health care organization was doing. And they told the nurses on a Friday that they were outsourcing it on Monday. So the nurses felt like, well, they didn’t ask us anything about, how do you do this? What kind of questions should you be asking our patients? You know, if you if you get this kind of situation, this is how you could handle it. So they just felt like there was no communication. They were kind of blindsided by all of this. And this is pretty pretty. It’s pretty much across a lot of organizations. Communication. When I do assessments, communication comes back as the most important thing. But the thing that’s not being done very well.

Janice Brathwaite: So the next group I went to was the doctors and I got in. I got in the meeting and the CEO was there and the doctors all filed in and I so I, you know, I turned it over to the CEO to kind of explain what was going on. And they’re like, what, what what I don’t I don’t know anything about this. Why were we told that this was going to be the topic of conversation? So I knew right then because they had no basis for a conversation at all. As we started to kind of, you know, pull the layers away, one of the persons, one of the doctors said to me, well said to the group, I’m doing the best I can, but nobody seems to recognize it. And then they started to cry. I’m like, oh my God, this is really bad. So, um, and then I went to the CEO and said, you know, the doctors are. They’re not in a good place there. You know, they feel like they’re not getting the, you know, the support of the communication that they need to get their jobs done. The next group was the front line, and the front line was the most candid about everything, and really brought up the similar types of situations in that area.

Janice Brathwaite: The things like around communication, you know, engagement around recognition. Recognition is another big thing that always comes up. People don’t feel like they’re being recognized for the work that they’re doing. And it’s not just getting a paycheck. It’s your boss coming to you and saying, hey, you know, you did a good job on that today. You know, good job. It doesn’t have to be some big, convoluted process. It has to be mindfulness. I mean, leadership has to be mindful that we’re dealing with human beings, and human beings need to know where they stand at certain times. So when I went back to the CEO and to kind of debrief, she said, I told you, I told you what they were going to do. They were going to blame us for it. And I started I almost started laughing because I was like, well, it is you. I’m saying to myself, it is you. Everything they’re saying is pointing right back at you. So I gave them a whole plan, which they implemented, which was very surprising and very, very encouraging. And they just they went from a really bad place to getting just recently I saw it on LinkedIn. They received a $30 million grant from a foundation. So they have completely turned that organization around.

Lee Kantor: And then what were some of your recommendations to like, how were you going to attack the improving of the communication and the, um, you know, stop taking people from granted.

Janice Brathwaite: Right? I think a lot of times that leaders, things like have a town hall and then we’ll talk to everybody together. And that sometimes works. It depends on what the conversation is. But it really is about, you know, meeting with your staff. You know, like managers, senior leaders and leaders need to meet more with their staff and be candid and clear about what they’re what they’re planning to do or what their what the problems are. A lot of times they kind of skirt around the problems. I was telling a funny story the other day that I actually wrote in my newsletter that when I was in working in one organization, I used to joke about this. You know, I’d be walking out of the conference room, and I turned to one of my colleagues and say, did you notice that big hump underneath the rug in the conference room? And they’d say, well, what? What are you talking about? There’s a big hump there. And they’re like, well, what is it? I said, it’s everything that we sucked under the rug all these years, but it’s not going to go away. I think sometimes people think it’s just magically going to, you know, things will magically get better. Um, and it doesn’t. You have to really, you know, be intentional about what you’re doing. So communication in recognition of the top two. And if and I know communication is a difficult thing and I’m not saying it’s easy to do. But as a leader hopefully you know you’ve learned some techniques to do that, which I’m not seeing a lot of that right now.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you find that culture is one of those things that if you’re not mindful about it and you’re not intentional about it, it’s going to form Without any input from you. Uh, a culture is going to exist whether you’re kind of, um, proactively, um, trying to nudge it or encourage it to be a certain way because it just it’s like branding, even if you’re not putting any effort into it, it’s happening. So how do you recommend the people be, you know, put more intentionality around kind of the the things that are important, like you’re saying how um, recognition and um, communication are important. You have to put things in place that encourage that type of behavior if you want it to continue to be important. Otherwise it’ll just be a mess and it’ll just kind of, uh, you’re not going to have any kind of say over the matter. It’s just going to happen in its own haphazard way.

Janice Brathwaite: Right? Um, when I think about that, I think about, you know, what they say about how to how would you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. In order to find out what’s going on, you really have to do an assessment, and you’re not going to be able to solve everything at the same time. I mean, if it depends, I mean, if there’s maybe five things you might be able to do, but it’s going to be over time. And that’s why it’s so important to have a plan, to have a plan on how to do this. And that’s where I come in. I do all of the, you know, I review all of the assessments and, and do all of the crunching of numbers. And then I come back with what I call a playbook that I can use, they can use to actually implement change in the organization.

Lee Kantor: So but in order for that to occur, they have to, number one, be self-aware. There’s a problem. And number two, give you permission to go out and kind of do the research you need to do in order to come up with the plan. And, and then hopefully they’ll, you know, act on it.

Janice Brathwaite: Right. Well, that’s why I start at the top. That’s where I know if this organization is really serious about this. You know, a lot of times people think you can push change from the bottom up. You can’t. It has to be top down. If the leader or the CEO or whoever the leading is leading that organization doesn’t believe that is important, then it’s not going to be important. They have to. And it really takes me talking to them and kind of guiding them and giving them examples of things and asking them questions. You know, so, you know, what are some of the what are what are two of the things that you find you’re struggling with the most in the organization? So I can get an idea, and then I can kind of use those as levers to kind of get the door open a little bit. And then slowly, you know, I start to bring them on board more and more and more. Then I move to senior leadership, and I work with them and get their Input, and then so on down the line within an organization so that everybody knows what’s going on. You know, you can’t do this without bringing your staff into it, because they’re the ones that are going to make going to do the assessment. So they have to be on the CEO has to be on board. There’s no doubt about it now.

Lee Kantor: Or is the problem kind of are they seeing a problem of in terms of employee retention or turnover. Are those kind of the clues for the leaders that something’s amiss. Like is that kind of the the big flashing light when you’re having a hard time hiring or you’re having a lot of turnover in an area, or those are the things that are like, okay, this has to be triage at some point.

Janice Brathwaite: Well, yeah, I mean, recruitment and retention is and especially in the health care field was really a, you know, high priority. And it’s, you know, they’re having very a lot of difficulty getting people to work in that particular field. Not not the only ones, but there are others out there as well. But that is a definite sign that something’s wrong. Because if you can’t recruit people, you ask yourself the question, well, what is it about this organization that’s making people not want to work here? Because people talk, you know, and they tell each other what’s going on. You know, like, I don’t know if you really want to work there. Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve heard some bad things. And, um, the retention is really, you know, the recruitment is the external, but the retention is internal, and that’s where you really have. Now you want to keep the people that you’ve got. And I have this thing that I’m not saying it’s a it’s a process called value driven hiring. So my theory is if someone doesn’t believe what you believe, then they’re probably not going to stay with you there. And this becomes especially important, I think is important in all industries. But how do you find out if they believe what you believe and they’re, you know, is clued into, oh, yeah. You know, like I really feel like, you know, like I could catch on to this, this process. I could catch on to this desire, this whole, this mission that this, this organization has. You’ve got to interview differently. And that’s what a lot of people don’t do.

Lee Kantor: So they’re not they’re not they’re not kind of making sure that the values are aligned that that they’re all kind of trying to get to the same place ultimately.

Janice Brathwaite: Right. And it’s not just in the interview, it’s in the job posting. I mean, you got to call out what you’re looking for because you want to attract the people who believe it, and you want to attract the people that don’t believe it. So you’re not wasting your time. I mean, I’ve seen this multiple times. Somebody gets in a the job. And then, you know, the front desk and they’re talking to patients and and a lot of times they think they’re thinking, well, I don’t understand why are they getting health care? And I you know, I have to pay for mine. Why are they getting this for? For nothing. You know, that is not the person you want when you when you’re working with patients, you know, you don’t want somebody just to say that, to think that. So you’ve got to figure out what are the what are their real thoughts are. And this became clear to me, I used to run an AmeriCorps program in the organization in which I worked. And the first year I got there, and I just did like the regular interviewing and, um, and these people were going to be sent out to various organizations. Um, so they weren’t in the same building as me. They were going to be somewhere else.

Janice Brathwaite: So I went through it, and I realized that I wasn’t getting the quality of the quality of person that I really needed to be able to send them out to someplace else and know they were going to work. So then I started, you know, working on and thinking about it, reading. And I came up with a value based hiring is is the key. So I changed my whole process of interviewing. I didn’t I mean, I looked at their I looked at their resume. I looked at, you know, a lot of these people right out of college. So they didn’t have, like, you know, extensive resumes. But I look at their resume and then I’d ask them questions like, so tell me how you deal with conflict. And I wouldn’t get I wouldn’t say anything after that. Just let them talk because you don’t want to lead them. You want them to say exactly what they mean. And the more I did that, the better the quality of the person and the happier the places that I was sending them to were because they didn’t have to babysit them. You know, they came in, they were ready to work. They wanted to do it, and they were there for all the right reasons.

Lee Kantor: Right? So it was a better fit. You were able to get better fits faster?

Janice Brathwaite: Yes, absolutely.

Lee Kantor: That reminds me of somebody I interviewed. Um, they work, uh, in leadership of a large, uh, fast food company. And they were in charge of hiring the the people, the front line people that were dealing with the customer. And they said they only hired people who were natural smiles. They wanted people that had the kind of that cheery disposition, naturally. Um, because you can’t really train that, and you can’t make a non smiler a smiler. So, you know, when they’re looking to hire, that’s, that’s a quality they look for because they’re, they’re already close, you know, in terms of customer service, if the person is smiling just naturally.

Janice Brathwaite: Right I mean you can it become clear to me you can teach someone a skill if they’re somewhat intelligent, you can teach them a skill, but you can’t teach them about it, you know. And I was I was saying I was talking to someone a while back and I said, no, my belief is that by the time you’re five years old, you have all your base values. You know, don’t hurt other people, don’t take what doesn’t belong to you. And then over time, as you get older, you start to say, well, maybe I need to vet that value. I don’t think I’m doing really good there with that particular thing. So you start to take on value. So if someone wants to take on a value, they will, but you can’t force them to.

Lee Kantor: Yeah it’s going to be voluntary.

Janice Brathwaite: So you know you just waste your time if you if you keep, you know, pushing and pushing and pushing. But they’re not going to, they’re not going to be able to get to where you want them to be. And I like that. I like that thing about smiling because it does tell something about the person. You know, you don’t want somebody grumpy coming in. Um, you know, when you’re dealing with the public. So that makes that makes good sense.

Lee Kantor: Now, how has the transition been for you? Working as an employee at different organizations and doing the type of mentoring and coaching you were doing there, to the type of work you’re doing now where you’re the entrepreneur that are that’s coming in. Um, but I would guess you’re doing kind of similar work in, in the actual activities you’re doing. But from an entrepreneurial standpoint versus an employee standpoint, was that a difficult transformation for you?

Janice Brathwaite: Not really, because I always said I was working. I felt like I was working for myself. And um, and luckily I had some managers and leaders that would allow me to do that. So I was kind of setting my own course, even internally. Um, and I think a lot of times I’d say, well, you know, if you don’t, if you don’t fall off the rails, it’ll be good. I’ll tell you. A program I developed is called Grow Your Own. And while I was there, and it was at this organization, and it was about, you know, instead of, you know, always looking outside for people. Let’s develop the people that are in the organization to become medical center assistants or dental assistants. And I just thought about that. And I, you know, I sat down and thought about it and I said, you know, I think this might work. And if people don’t think I’m crazy, I think they’ll go along with it. And they did. So I always felt like an independent. I really did. I’m a very independent anyhow, but I, I’ve always felt in myself that way and, and as long and I always knew what I needed to go and ask questions on like it was financial or, you know, something was involved.

Janice Brathwaite: It was confidential. I would go to a leader and say, hey, you know, I want to do this, but I’m not sure, you know, that’s the right thing to do just to get feedback. So I knew my I knew my my boundaries. You know, I say empowerment is like a highway. When you’re on the highway. I don’t know how many lanes you have down where you are, but say there’s three lanes and you can move your car from lane to lane. There’s nothing to stop you from doing that. But if you go too far to one side, you’ll hit the median. If you go too far the other side, you probably go down in a ditch. So that was the empowerment is not just like everybody does anything they want to do. It’s there are there are boundaries around it. And but people need to know what those boundaries are. You can’t think it’s intuitive that they’re going to know. But if you’re in this, you know, if you’ve got room to move, you’re going to I think you’ll be you’ll be pretty happy. And I think that’s what I had. I had room to move.

Lee Kantor: Right. They were giving you autonomy. And you obviously have the expertise and the trust of the organization that they were letting you, you know, play out your ideas. Um, you know, within the parameters that were within the organization. So that kudos to you.

Janice Brathwaite: So it was it wasn’t am I saying it’s an easy transition. But I, I felt like, you know, you know, just take what you’ve learned and, you know, transfer it over into something bigger. And and this is what I really love about this is the creativity. I mean, I really love about being an entrepreneur. I love the fact that I can be creative and develop things. And, you know, um, you know, and I did I spoke at a conference in Vermont and, uh, it’s an intergenerational understanding in the workplace, which seems to be a very big topic these days. And I developed this tool for them and, um, that they could take to start the conversation around, what are our what are the things that we share in common as generations? And one of the things that might be different, and how do we work together with the differences. The things that are different. And and it came. It went off really, really well. I’m going to do another I’m going to do it again in Illinois in October. The conference at a conference. So, um, you know, so that is something that now people wouldn’t that. Well, let me just back up. Culture is a big thing. When people you say culture, people go they, they, they glaze over because they don’t know what you’re talking about.

Janice Brathwaite: But intergenerational understanding in the workforce is part of your culture. So all these things that are causing the problems that these organizations are saying, we we have difficulty with Gen Z, Gen Y. So the you know, that that’s part of your culture. It’s not it’s it’s not something you can’t work with. And the one thing I don’t like about the way people have been handling it is I don’t like people stereotyping other people. And I think once you send, you give those little letters to people. People start thinking of whoever’s in that group in a certain way, whether that way, that way or not. So I’m trying to make them stop thinking in a different way. Let’s get rid of that. You know, these are individuals. I’m sure when I came into the workforce, they said some of the same things about me. Oh my God, those boomers, they want everything. You know. They don’t want anybody to tell. Tell them what to do. They want to. Oh, they know loyalty to the company. I mean, sure, they said all those things. Nothing different than what they’re saying today. So why are we doing this? Why are we why are we assigning labels to people?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. It seems, um, counterproductive. I don’t think that’s helping. Um, it. I guess in some ways it’s a shortcut for people, so they don’t have to make the effort to get to know the individual. They just kind of make a blanket assessment.

Janice Brathwaite: Right. And so, you know, you see, you know what you think you see sometimes that’s what you’re going to see, right.

Lee Kantor: Exactly. You’re going to have a bias and then everything’s going to fit into it. You’re not going to give the person the benefit of the doubt. You’re going to just assume it just opens up a can of worms. And none of them are good.

Janice Brathwaite: Right? No, it’s it’s. So that’s the that’s how I’ve been approaching it and using like, um, employee resource groups to actually deal with this, this, this issue to get to people, get people to know each other on it, not just by their letter by whom, but by who they are.

Lee Kantor: Right. And going back to your values, like if we just put do things around values, there’s going to be a lot more commonality if you’ve chosen the right folks that have similar values.

Janice Brathwaite: Absolutely. That’s absolutely that’s absolutely right. Spot on.

Lee Kantor: Now, what is the what’s the typical point of entry for you in these organizations? The speaking. Do you come in to do speaking or you do a workshop and then, uh, that gives you kind of the credibility and then you can build on some successes to get, uh, more and more work from the organization.

Janice Brathwaite: Yeah. I think the right I’m seeing what I’m seeing now is that the speaking has become a way to really touch a lot of people all at the same time. You know, and rather than reaching out to the individual units, sometimes they bring all these people together. Just so happens is of a health care conference and in community health. And so they’re going to bring all of their community health centers together. So I’m talking to a whole group of people in different areas, and we’re dealing with probably different things and some of the same things.

Lee Kantor: Right. So. So, uh, organizations and associations are, um, having you come and speak on these, um, kind of topics to help educate their folks on different strategies on how to manage them.

Janice Brathwaite: Correct. That’s right. Now, as the hot one is and I started this with a college who wanted me to speak on this, which I thought was really interesting, but they had a workforce group, um, of employers that they wanted. They wanted me to speak to that was part of a program they were running. And, um, so I, I went out, I, you know, I put together a presentation and I realized when I was sitting in the room that as I was presenting, that people really are struggling with this. You’ve hit on something here, you know, and I said, you know, I mean, I can do a I mean, I could do things on value driven hiring. And, I mean, I’ve got a lot of different topics I can talk about, but right now, I think this is one of the pain points that organizations are really struggling.

Lee Kantor: So what do you need more of? How can we help you?

Janice Brathwaite: Well, I’d like to get more opportunities to speak in front of organizations. And it’s not just healthcare. Um, I was in the for profit world for many years with Xerox, Motorola, you know, various various top mine companies. So I understand that environment as well, which I think is a plus. Um, speaking, you know, just reaching and reaching out to me, uh, if they’re on LinkedIn, I have a newsletter that I put out. Um, this month it was on, um, in the midst of a storm, and it was talking about the things that health care organizations are going through right now. And what do they do in the future if something comes up that they’re not expecting? Well, how do you how do you do like an emergency preparedness for organizational turmoil?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. So you’re available to speak when it comes to any type of this. Uh, culture, leadership, uh, the management side of things, the, um, you know, building resilience. It sounds like that there’s a lot of, um, topics to cover based on your expertise. And it doesn’t have to be healthcare because, um, you know, that you might have worked in healthcare for a minute, but these are kind of universal challenges for organizations.

Janice Brathwaite: Everybody’s dealing with them. You know, I, I have, uh, family members that are in the industry. And, you know, I hear them talking about things and they’re no different than what I heard people talk about in healthcare. So it’s it’s it’s universal. This is a universal problem. And, you know, unless people start using some tools to address this. This is going to continue. And you know the other thing. Now we have this thing around bringing people back to the office. Um, which is causing, you know, some just, you know, concern from employees. Um, and but, you know, I’m, I, I was a real advocate of, you know, working from home. I’ve kind of changed a little bit. I’ve taken a little bit of a turn because I do think it affects collaboration. And people say, well, we’re only on teams anyhow. Well, no, but you you do. I mean, I have the ability to have zoom when I was in the office, but we always had meetings, face to face meetings. You know, we didn’t go just on, on a zoom. And, you know, the late somebody down the hallway was sitting in their office. And I could have walked down there and had a conversation with them. So I’m, I’m I’m a little bit on the fence around that one. I don’t think it’s as good as people think it is.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think you miss out on some of these accidental, um, conversations and being a fly on the wall. And there’s other types of ways to learn and interact and bond, uh, that it’s difficult to, um, to do over zoom or some of these virtual platforms. I think there’s a lot of value to just running into somebody and just chatting for two seconds and getting an answer, um, or getting some help or asking a question where it’s that’s a little trickier in kind of a virtual setting.

Janice Brathwaite: And if you can’t get the feel for how the person’s really reacting to this, right, a little box, but, you know, you you I’m sure you’ve been in many meetings yourself and you you can tell by body language, right going.

Lee Kantor: And then the a lot of young people are not learning how to read that, like they’re missing out on some of that kind of, um, not, you know, like you’re saying the body language and things like that, the more subtle nuances of communication that maybe are difficult to, uh, translate through a zoom call.

Janice Brathwaite: Exactly. So, um, yeah. And it can be a lot of, you know, misunderstandings. Um, I’ve seen it happen myself in zoom meetings, misunderstandings amongst individuals. And, you know, it’s just it to me, it’s it’s not as as productive as people think it is. And it’s. And I understand the reason why people want to do this. But I say to myself, before Covid, didn’t I go into work five days a week? And now, and I’m not the only one that went in. So what? What’s the problem? This was because we had an epidemic. People don’t seem to remember that. It wasn’t because, oh, the companies all decided you all can work from home now. You can work from home. I used to be able to work from home one day a week, maybe on a Friday, but I always had to ask if I could do it. And, um, so it’s it’s not, it’s not necessary. And, and people say, well, well, you know, when I’m, when I’m working from home, I can do other things, I can go places, I can take my kids. Well, what did you do when you work five days a week, right? Kids not go.

Lee Kantor: Anywhere. Somehow that got done somehow.

Janice Brathwaite: Yeah. Um, so, um, so I’m not really buying that. But my friends, my, I get a lot of pushback from my friends about this because they think that, you know, it’s it’s great. And, um, okay, FaceTime is good, but, you know, zoom, zoom, zoom won’t get you there, right?

Lee Kantor: Well, if somebody wants to connect with you, is there a website? Is there a best way to connect with you and your team?

Janice Brathwaite: Yes. Um, my email is Janice at WP transformation. Not with no s.com. I’m also on LinkedIn. Um, and you can reach me there where I post a newsletter every month. And um, and you know, I have a website that’s my, my, my website is, is WP transformations, uh, transformation um, dot com. And um, so they can get me at any of those places.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well, Janice, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work, and we appreciate you.

Janice Brathwaite: All right. Thank you so much for having me on.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Rhonda Nelson – Inspirational Speaker, Author, & Philanthropist

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High Velocity Radio
High Velocity Radio
Rhonda Nelson - Inspirational Speaker, Author, & Philanthropist
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Rhonda Nelson, renowned patient advocate, author, speaker and philanthropist is a beacon of resilience and strength.

Her charitable work spans championing equitable access to affordable healthcare, supporting those diagnosed with AERD (Aspirin Exacerbated Respiratory Disease), serving as a voice in the foster care system and encouraging women to reinvent themselves in their different stages of life.

Follow Rhonda on Facebook.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • Overcoming the challenges of chronic illness and AERD.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is going to be a good one. So excited to be talking to my guest today. We have Rhonda Nelson. She is a renowned patient advocate and author, speaker, and a philanthropist. Welcome, Rhonda.

Rhonda Nelson: Hi, how are you? Thanks so much for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m so excited to learn more about what you’re up to. Can you talk a little bit about your work as a patient advocate? How did that come about?

Rhonda Nelson: Well, it came about because I have struggled for over 20 years with pretty rare respiratory disease called e d, which is aspirin exacerbated respiratory disease. It took me about two years to get a diagnosis, and a few years to get to a point where I was, well, medically managed. And so I just through that struggle, I knew that there had to be other people going through what I was going through, and so it just became a passion of mine to advocate for patients with, but also navigating the, um, the insurance system and the medications that work well for this disease can be a daunting task as well. So while it’s not relatively well known, it has come a long way, and it’s in not only people, but physicians knowing about it and understanding about it. And so I’m just I want to be the voice, the voice of the disease, if you will.

Lee Kantor: So talk a little bit about what it feels like to be in that situation where something is obviously wrong and no one can kind of figure it out. Like how as a patient. Kind of do you make your moves when it comes to that? Because a lot of people just rely on whatever the doctor says. I’m just going to do. And when you’re just not getting satisfaction. How does a patient kind of maneuver around such a complex ecosystem?

Rhonda Nelson: Well, you make a really good point, because in a lot of my speaking and interacting with patients, you know, I talk about that because we we grew up kind of what the doctor said was the wherewithal and the be with all. And that’s what we did, and we pretty much didn’t question it. And throughout my journey, I just, you know, I wasn’t getting anywhere. I wasn’t getting any answers. I wasn’t feeling any better. I was feeling worse. And multiple trips to the E.R. when I would have exacerbations. And, you know, I just so I just dug I kept digging for research to point me in the directions. I studied just as much as I could about the disease, and then I just went to doctors that knew about the disease that, you know, I couldn’t find anyone locally, so I had to go where they were. That led me to learning about. One of the keys for me was to medically journal what was going on with me on a day to day basis. You only have a short period of time with your physician. They don’t know what’s going on with you. All the other hours of the days, of the months, of the weeks. And so to go in and, you know, say, this is what’s happening, this is what’s working. This is not what’s working. We have to find answers. So it’s so important for people to understand how you have to be your own advocate, even with your medical doctors. And it might be doctors you’ve been seeing your whole entire life for for a big majority of your life, but you still have to have that line of communication and, and and if you don’t agree with what they’re saying or what they’re telling you is not working, you have to speak up.

Lee Kantor: So let’s talk a little bit about medical journaling. I’ve never heard of that before. What does that entail?

Rhonda Nelson: So really it’s just keeping a journal of of what goes on with you, especially if you’re, you know, in my case, my flares would typically happen in the middle of the night. Why? Well, now, what I know is the reason early on they were happening is because I would, uh, you know, I would cough and I would sneeze and I’d have all these kind of horrific symptoms. And so I would take Tylenol PM to sleep because I now I can tolerate Tylenol. There are some patients that cannot I can tolerate Tylenol, but I can’t tolerate any other insects. So I would take Tylenol PM and that was causing me to have a reaction. And so I, you know, I started just like writing down these kind of things that were happening and trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together so that when I did see my physicians, I could say, hey, this is something that’s happening on a regular basis. Why is this? What do we do to control this? And it’s just because you I couldn’t rely on my memory to remember if I only saw my doctor once every six weeks or three months. I can’t remember every single thing that you know how a medicine was working. Tracking the reactions or tracking the progress of the medicine or new things that were happening to me. Um, you know, maybe during spring I would see an influx in flares, or in the fall I would see influx in flares, but I can’t remember all of that and be able to get that out in my short little window of an appointment with a physician, so I just started writing things down.

Lee Kantor: So you were keeping track of the like, kind of on a daily basis. How am I feeling? When am I having kind of a flare or an attack? Um, what medicines did I take that day? Maybe what I was eating or things like that. You were just kind of keeping track of kind of the minutia of the day, so that when you did go see a physician, you were equipped with kind of, okay, this is what’s happening, you know? And now I can even probably if you were so organized, you can mark on a calendar. These are the days I had a flare. And this is what I was happening in the day or two before each flare. So then that way in that meeting, it’s productive. It’s not you trying to remember. Oh yeah, it was a Wednesday. Like that’s that probably wouldn’t help the doctor kind of, you know, problem solve.

Rhonda Nelson: Right. Exactly. And it truly is. It’s like putting a puzzle together. And I mean, I, I say this when when I speak a lot, I, I say this about every condition or issues that you’re experiencing with your body. It doesn’t just have to be asthma or ARD or anything like that. If you don’t have a diagnosis or you’re seeking a diagnosis of what is wrong, it’s important to to document all of this stuff so that you can get the big picture so that your physician can get the big picture. You know, just that little 20 minutes that we’re in the office with them. You don’t you don’t get a whole lot of time. So you need to go in prepared and bombard them with as much information as you can about what’s been going on with you while you’re not in front of them.

Lee Kantor: Now, were you the one that concluded that it’s all, or was it the physician that figured it out?

Rhonda Nelson: It was the physician. So I had, um, when this first started happening, I was living in Nashville, and then my husband and I, uh, purchased a historic inn in North Carolina, and we had moved to North Carolina, and I was still struggling to get a diagnosis. And I happened to be referred to an allergist. And coincidentally, he had just returned from Denver, um, from a seminar about N.e.r.d. Now, mind you, this was in 22,002, so many years back. And and it still wasn’t very, um, it wasn’t as commonly well known as it is now. Um, it was often misdiagnosed because just of the symptoms that you have mimic so many other things. But when I walked into him and again, I went in with, you know, just with a ton of information about, you know, what was happening and what had been happening over the, the months prior. And he said to me, you know, you don’t have just asthma or you don’t have just nasal polyps and chronic infections, he said. I truly believe that you have a key, and the key was that I had documented enough to know that when I would take NSAIDs, I would have flares. And so and by flares I mean go into anaphylactic shock. And so that was the key. And he recognized it immediately.

Lee Kantor: And it was just kind of luck that you just happened to run into a doctor that had just come from a conference. So it was top of mind. It wasn’t kind of buried in the back of a book he read, you know, 20 years ago.

Rhonda Nelson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was truly that was truly a a stroke of luck for sure.

Lee Kantor: And then once you had the kind of accurately diagnosing it, then were you able to get treated in a way that now it’s manageable.

Rhonda Nelson: Yes. Um, so aspirin desensitization is one treatment for it. And that was pretty, um, pretty common and popular treatment for it, um, back in at that time. Um, so basically what it is, is that you just, um, you’re given aspirin challenges and you work your way up through the dosages and until you reach a plateau with no reaction. Now, in my case, because he had only done two in his whole entire time of practicing, um, he admitted me to the hospital and we did it in ICU, but also because my reactions to the aspirin were so severe. So it it was a day long process. And then once I reached Hundred and 50mg of aspirin with no reaction. Then what you do is you. You’re on a daily aspirin protocol. Now, that’s, you know, that presents its own challenges. You have issues with some people have issues with, um, it being hard on the stomach on the GI track. Um, obviously, if you’re taking, uh, high doses of aspirin when you have any kind of dental surgery or regular surgery or things like that, you know, you have to some doctors require you to back off. Um, so there’s all kinds of things. Fast forward to today. Aspirin desensitization is still done, and it is still considered a protocol that works well for some people when other things don’t work well. I am no longer doing that. I am on a biologic. There are biologic meds that are new that work really well for us patients. And so, um, that’s That’s what I take now.

Lee Kantor: So now, though, you’re everything’s kind of under control, and it’s manageable.

Rhonda Nelson: It is. Um, there are times when, um, you know, it’s a little more difficult, and I have to add some extra medicines along with the biologic. Spring and fall seem to be pretty big triggers for me. Um, but I don’t have any issues with, say, exercise induced asthma or anything like that that would cause me to have to use, uh, inhalers or things like that. Um, overall, I am very well managed and my polyps have not. Um, I’ve not had a regrowth of polyps like several, like many patients experience. Um, and again, the biologics are, are part of that, that they keep the polyps at bay. Um so that’s yeah, I, I feel blessed that I’m, I’ve found this particular, um, medication that works. But there are a lot of challenges with these biologics and with insurance companies. And then in other countries right now, they’re not readily available. So that presents problems for those patients as well.

Lee Kantor: So now that you’re spending a lot of your time kind of as a patient advocate in this area, are you finding that there’s a lot more people that are suffering for this than they’ve just been misdiagnosed? They didn’t even know that this was kind of where they were at.

Rhonda Nelson: Yes, and it is. We see that a lot. And and it’s I think the, the hardest part of the disease to diagnose is the aspirin sensitivity part, because if you’re not paying attention and you don’t and and again, this is where documenting this stuff comes into play. If you just randomly don’t know that you are sensitive to aspirin and NSAIDs, if you take them and you have a asthmatic attack or go into anaphylactic shock, but you don’t put two and two together, you can oftentimes miss that for quite a long period of time because, you know, we don’t I mean, most people don’t just constantly pop in saids and and aspirin for no reason at all. So, um, you know, you may someone may take it, have a reaction. Let’s say they’re taking it for a back ache. Their back doesn’t feel great. They do that. Their back feels better. They don’t take it anymore for a period of time. And then something else comes along. They have a headache, they take it and they have another one. So if you don’t start documenting these things, it’s it’s it’s difficult to catch that. That could be the denominator that you’re looking for.

Lee Kantor: Right. Because you’re not connecting the dots because they seem disparate like it doesn’t. They’re not the same. So you think that something else is causing it, not the medicine.

Rhonda Nelson: Correct? Yes.

Lee Kantor: So, um. Now, what was it like, kind of saying? Okay, now I have this. I, um, kind of I’m on the other side a little bit of this, and I want to advocate because that’s a I mean, that’s a big step to not just say, well, I solve my problem, but now you want to help other people with the problem. What was kind of the thinking around that, and why did you choose to do that?

Rhonda Nelson: Well, my journey with it was quite frustrating. Um, my husband is a musician and is on the road a lot, and so, um, there would be times when we would be in, you know, other cities or on the bus in the middle of nowhere. And I wasn’t well managed. And so I would have go into these anaphylactic episodes and, you know, have to be taken to the emergency room. And because we moved around quite a bit, just, um, you know, thinking that certain areas would be better climate wise for me. But then you, you know, you’re constantly chasing new doctors and doctors that understand what’s going on and understand. And the bandaid medication for it is prednisone. And sometimes, um, you know, for lack of understanding the disease, a doctor will keep you on, you know, doses of prednisone long term, which has its own right.

Lee Kantor: That’s a steroid. That’s not. Yes. Not everybody can handle very well for any length of time.

Rhonda Nelson: And the side effects of it are horrible. Um, you know, it does it does put a bandaid on whatever you’re taking it for, but it does have some horrific side effects. So through all of that, I just I knew that I wanted to be a voice for this disease because my husband is in little River band. I knew we had a an audience and a pathway to do that as well. And so it just really became a passion of mine. And then I got involved with Allergy Asthma Network, and I went, um, to one of their Capitol Hill days where you spend the whole day on Capitol Hill and you’re, um, just speaking to, uh, legislators and representatives about whatever current bills they happen to be working on. But that particular year, it was it was surrounded by, um, it involved a lot of bills based around asthma. And so that’s how I got involved with Allergy Asthma Network. And then that’s where really my advocacy passion started to bloom even more. Fast forward to today. I sit on their executive board of directors. And, um, you know, I just knew that is something that a lot of people struggle with. A lot of people don’t know they have it. It’s often misdiagnosed. And I just wanted to be that voice to bring awareness to the disease.

Lee Kantor: And that’s a great lesson for the listeners out there that you were a sufferer, but then you got through it, and you don’t want to just solve the problem for yourself. You felt that it was important for you to kind of leverage your platform and your resources to help others. And that probably gives you a feeling that a good feeling in terms of now there’s a Y and there’s, you know, you have work to do now. This is now. It sounds like it’s an important part of your life going forward, this kind of advocacy.

Rhonda Nelson: Absolutely. We’ve done a couple of fundraisers for, um, Allergy Asthma Network with the band And. And, you know, just to raise awareness for, ah, um, we speak about it when we I wrote a book called A Different Life and it’s, um, just about my life, my husband’s life, our life on the road, things we do together, um, to help organizations that are near and dear to us using the pathway, little River band, um, to help certain causes. And, um, so we we used to go out and do, um, songs and stories from the road and we would it would be myself, my husband and a couple of the other band members. And, um, you know, we would touch on, on D in those as well. And it’s just any way that I am able to talk about the disease, I always swoop up on that opportunity.

Lee Kantor: Now, what advice would you give other listeners out there, especially women that that would like to kind of tackle? This is a big project for for a lot of people to do what you’re doing. How how should somebody go about or what have you learned about going about tackling something that is such a large project? Is there some kind of do’s and don’ts you’ve learned over the years? Because obviously you didn’t just flip a switch and now you’re in the point. You’re right. Um, this was a slog, right? You had to suffer. You had to figure it out. You had to find the right allies, and then you had to really kind of find that lane for yourself so that you can be the advocate that you become. So any lessons you can share?

Rhonda Nelson: Well, here’s here’s what I think about it. I think any little thing that anybody does to raise awareness for whatever it is, whether it’s ARD or whether it’s any other disease or cause, um, nothing is ever too small. You know, I am blessed by the fact that I have the pathway of little River band to use and spread the word. And we can, um, not only for local but for other causes too, that are near and dear to our heart. And we can do fundraisers and we can do all kinds of things. Um, but for for others, nothing is too small when it comes to raising awareness for whatever is near and dear to your heart, whether you just do a something locally. Um, whether you do, maybe just a walk. You know, people do all kinds of walks for different diseases and organizations. Maybe you just make a donation and you just are passionate about it, whatever. Cause it is. If you’re if you’re talking about it amongst your family and friends, you’re raising awareness. And that’s what people tend to overlook, because just sharing it with your circle of people is raising awareness. So it doesn’t have to be something big and splashy and over the top. Um, you know, because you might be in a circle of friends and you’re talking about whatever the cause is you’re talking about, and it might trigger a light bulb in one of your friend’s head that says, hey, I have another friend that either if you’re talking about a disease is going through something that sounds similar, let me share this with them. Or if it’s a cause that you know is near and dear to them, maybe they have a friend that could benefit from cause or they become interested in it. So nothing that anyone does is ever too small. I think sometimes we get caught up by the fact that we think what we do is not big enough and grand enough, and that’s not really the case.

Lee Kantor: Right? So take some sort of action, because when you knock over that first domino, you don’t know what other dominoes are going to fall because of that action.

Rhonda Nelson: Absolutely, absolutely. So I’ll give I can give you a perfect example. Um. Go ahead please. Here in town where we live. And it’s called Eli’s house. And it’s a it’s a home that’s, um, started a little over two years ago, and I knew nothing about it. Now, I’m born and raised in Nashville. Um, we’ve lived here. Back here this time, two and a half years. But I knew nothing about this organization. And it just so happened that, um, a group of women that I’m in, one of them had found out about this organization and was doing a lunch and learn, and I found out about it. And it is something that is very near and dear to mine and my husband’s heart. It’s a it’s a home where women can go up to five women with their children, and they can live for up to two years. And they, you know, job mentors, um, financial mentors, they can complete geds. And just there’s so many resources that this home has for them now, there’s certain criteria they have to meet before they can live there, but nevertheless, they are. It’s not a shelter. They are in a home. It’s a home environment. They’re working towards, um, you know, being able to be out on their own with their children. And so it’s just it’s an amazing organization because I found out about that through a friend with this lunch and learn, we are now going to be doing a, um, benefit concert for them in December. And so, you know, that’s just a perfect example of something that I didn’t know existed. We’ve been aligned with other organizations like this around the country, and it’s just something that’s very near and dear to us. So through a friend, by having a simple lunch and learn, go eat a sandwich and, um, learn about this organization, I’ve now become involved with this organization and we’re excited to to do other things for them.

Lee Kantor: Right. And that and that’s a great example of this was in in your town and your neighborhood and you didn’t know it existed. And there’s so many kind of hidden gems out there that are doing good work and that it just didn’t come across your radar yet. But all it takes are those kind of random acts and, and you showing up for the lunch and learn or you, you being curious and and then that domino, you know, caused the next one and the next one. So no action is too small. So people, please take that to heart. And if there’s a cause that’s important to you, don’t you know, don’t make it, don’t keep it at best kept secret, you know, go out there and evangelize about it.

Rhonda Nelson: Absolutely. I and I just I feel like that, you know, again, people kind of get in the mindset of I can’t do enough for or I can’t do anything that’s big enough for the organization. And and again, I. I am a firm believer that whatever someone can do to help an organization is huge, right?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, there’s no act that’s too small. And don’t and don’t kind of, um, self-select out like you take the action, err on the side of taking the action. Don’t err on the side of keeping it a secret.

Rhonda Nelson: Exactly, exactly. So.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more about your book, um, a different life or the different works you’re, you’re doing as an advocate, um, or just kind of connect with you, is there a website? What’s the best way to kind of connect with you?

Rhonda Nelson: Yes. My website, it’s Rhonda nelson.com and it’s r h o n d a b as in boy nelson.com. And you can drop me a note there. Find out what I’m doing. Um where I might be. All of the good things also. Um Instagram and Facebook. Um, is Rhonda Nelson and I have some exciting things that are on the horizon that I’m going to be doing and really looking forward to. Um, just staying out there and staying active and interactive with everybody that I meet, whether it’s at shows or whether it’s at events that I do or things like that. Um, again, and just spreading the word, spreading joy and spreading the word about and the other causes that we’re involved in.

Lee Kantor: Well, Rhonda, thank you so much for sharing your story today, doing such important work. And we appreciate you.

Rhonda Nelson: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll talk to you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

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