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Inspiring Women, Episode 20: Becoming The Authentic Leader You Envision

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Inspiring Women with Betty Collins album cover
Inspiring Women PodCast with Betty Collins
Inspiring Women, Episode 20: Becoming The Authentic Leader You Envision
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Inspiring Women with Betty Collins album cover

Inspiring Women, Episode 20: Becoming The Authentic Leader You Envision

There’s almost a crying desire for leadership in our society which is genuine. In this episode of “Inspiring Women,” host Betty Collins discusses the characteristics of authentic leadership. “Inspiring Women” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Betty’s Show Notes

It’s everywhere; books, coaches, seminars on the why, the what, the who, and the how.

It’s really, in my mind, almost overkill. But the sad truth is, with all of that help, we are desperately looking for leadership that is authentic.

In our society, in politics, to corporate America, to education systems, within our homes, within professional organizations, authentic leadership is really tough to find.

Authentic leadership works on the principle that leaders can prove their legitimacy, their credibility, by nurturing sincere relationships with whomever they’re leading. Notice I did not say “I am the leader, follow me!” It isn’t about the title. It really is nurturing sincere relationships.

How do you do that?

An authentic leader encourages their followers to be more open. They appreciate their support in the success of the organization. When you want to be an authentic leader, it’s pretty tough. It’s a pretty high standard, and it takes a while to do.

This is something you have to be pretty intentional about. If you are a true authentic leader, you’ll have certain characteristics. You probably can’t have all 10 that I’ve come up with, but you’ve got to have some of these, or you’ve got to be working on them.

  • Self-awareness
  • Integrity
  • Vision
  • Focus On Long-term Results
  • Listening Skills
  • Speaking Carefully
  • Transparency
  • Consistency
  • Drawing On Experience
  • Sharing Success With Your Team

Betty Collins, CPA, Brady Ware & Company and Host of the “Inspiring Women” Podcast

Betty Collins, Brady Ware & Company

Betty Collins is the Office Lead for Brady Ware’s Columbus office and a Shareholder in the firm. Betty joined Brady Ware & Company in 2012 through a merger with Nipps, Brown, Collins & Associates. She started her career in public accounting in 1988. Betty is co-leader of the Long Term Care service team, which helps providers of services to Individuals with Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities and nursing centers establish effective operational models that also maximize available funding. She consults with other small businesses, helping them prosper with advice on general operations management, cash flow optimization, and tax minimization strategies.

In addition, Betty serves on the Board of Directors for Brady Ware and Company. She leads Brady Ware’s Women’s Initiative, a program designed to empower female employees, allowing them to tap into unique resources and unleash their full potential.  Betty helps her colleagues create a work/life balance while inspiring them to set and reach personal and professional goals. The Women’s Initiative promotes women-to-women business relationships for clients and holds an annual conference that supports women business owners, women leaders, and other women who want to succeed. Betty actively participates in women-oriented conferences through speaking engagements and board activity.

Betty is a member of the National Association of Women Business Owners (NAWBO) and she is the President-elect for the Columbus Chapter. Brady Ware also partners with the Women’s Small Business Accelerator (WSBA), an organization designed to help female business owners develop and implement a strong business strategy through education and mentorship, and Betty participates in their mentor match program. She is passionate about WSBA because she believes in their acceleration program and matching women with the right advisors to help them achieve their business ownership goals. Betty supports the WSBA and NAWBO because these organizations deliver resources that help other women-owned and managed businesses thrive.

Betty is a graduate of Mount Vernon Nazarene College, a member of the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants, and a member of the Ohio Society of Certified Public Accountants. Betty is also the Board Chairwoman for the Gahanna Area Chamber of Commerce, and she serves on the Board of the Community Improvement Corporation of Gahanna as Treasurer.

“Inspiring Women” Podcast Series

“Inspiring Women” is THE podcast that advances women toward economic, social and political achievement. The show is hosted by Betty Collins, CPA, and presented by Brady Ware and Company. Brady Ware is committed to empowering women to go their distance in the workplace and at home. Other episodes of “Inspiring Women” can be found here.

Show Transcript

[00:00:00] Becoming the authentic leader that you envision and making sure you can build that team … Authentic leaders, being an authentic leader, the 10 steps of all of it … It’s everywhere; books, coaches, seminars on the why, the what, the who, and the how. It’s really, in my mind, almost overkill, but the sad truth is, with all of that help, and with all of those things, and with all that can be thrown at you, we are desperately looking for leadership that is authentic, in all aspects. From our society, from politics, to corporate America, to education systems, within our homes, within professional organizations, authentic leadership is really tough to find.

[00:00:46]  Part of it is because it’s hard to be an authentic leader. Authentic leadership works on the principle that leaders can prove their legitimacy, their credibility, by nurturing sincere relationships with whoever they’re leading. Notice I did not say I am the leader, follow me! It isn’t about the title you finally got. “Get over it. Do as I say.” It really is nurturing sincere relationships. How do you do that?

[00:01:19]   The word authentic also is way overused everywhere, but an authentic leader encourages their followers to be more open. They appreciate their support in the success of the organization, so they really want to hear from them. It doesn’t just promote them as the leader, or it doesn’t just promote individuals. It’s a team performance.

[00:01:41]   When you want to be an authentic leader, it’s pretty tough. It’s a pretty high standard, and it takes a while to do. You’re not going to do that because you got your MBA, or something, or you’re just getting out of college, or even if you have years of experience. This is something you have to be pretty intentional about. If you are a true authentic leader, you’ll probably have certain characteristics. You probably can’t have all 10 that I’ve come up with, but you’ve got to have some of these, or you’ve got to be working on them.

[00:02:09]   Who is the person in your life, at your company, in your career, in your past, maybe in your local government? In the professional organization, when you’re thinking authentic leader, who comes to your mind immediately? And then, I have to ask this – do you think you are an authentic leader? But, probably, the real question is do others see you as that?

[00:02:34]   I want to talk about how do we get there, and what does it mean to be an authentic leader? These are just some basic ideas that I came across, and read about, and looked … I think I narrowed it down to 10 because I don’t know how you could do all 10 of these but let me go through them.

[00:02:50]   Self-awareness. An authentic leader reflects upon their actions and some of their decisions, and they examine; all along their career, they’re examining how they’re doing those things, so they can try to not be biased, and, again, being open. You lead with your heart. You focus on the long-term results, integrity. That could be an entire podcast. You’ve got to lead with vision. You’ve got to listen, and carefully speak. Of course, transparency and consistency. Those are some things that I think have to be there for you to get the title – authentic leader.

[00:03:30]   Let’s start with the first one – self-awareness. You’re reflecting on your actions, your decisions. You’re examining your own strengths and weaknesses. Then, you put a lot of effort to overcome the fears around … The people who fear maybe those things that are not going well, and you use your strengths to maximize. Self-awareness is not obsession with every aspect of your life so it’s all perfect, and it is not constantly analyzing yourself and then asking everyone’s opinion about it. Again, it’s really reflection; examination. I don’t know that you have to do it every day, but authentic leaders don’t really hide behind their flaws. They talk about them, and they acknowledge them. A lot of times they get people around them that can maybe fill in where they are not that way.

[00:04:24]   Being an authentic leader is hard work and it takes years of experience, and you’re going to fail. But everyone behaves inauthentically – is that a word? – at times, and they say things and do things they regret. So, the key is to have self-awareness; to recognize those times where you listen, and you listen to your colleagues, and wherever you’re leading as this authentic leader, who can point them out to you, and you can go, “Okay, I get that.”

[00:04:54]   If you’re going to be an authentic leader, you’ve got to lead with your heart. Probably not afraid to dig deep. Those people that can go, “Let’s just get to the core of it.” They lead their team with courage. There’s a lot of empathy, because if you’re going to really lead from the heart and listen, it takes empathy. I’m not always an empathetic person. It’s a skill that I really have to work on. Being all heart also doesn’t mean you just lead with your emotions, or you feel good, therefore, that must be coming from the heart; or you feel bad, and that’s really coming from the core.

[00:05:31]   Two situations. One, I had someone … We always had kind of a flex time in one of the companies that I worked with. One of those things was as long as you got your eight-hour day in, you were good. This was well before everybody now has flex time or works out of your house. We had somebody who really loved flex time, because they wanted to eat breakfast with their kids every morning and take them to school. The problem with his authentic leadership, though, was when it came 5:00, and he still had two more hours, he didn’t hesitate to go into someone’s office at 3:00, 4:00, or 5:00, and sit there and talk and even follow them to their car. He really wasn’t authentic. Liked it for himself. Didn’t let others do it.

[00:06:18]   I will say, of course, I’m either very egotistical, or very insecure, but I will say this with as much humbleness as I can … The success of the women’s initiative at Brady Ware, my CEO directly said this to me from the beginning; he said, “You are a leader for this because you wear the emotions on your sleeve. Your passion is there for everybody to see, and it comes out at the very core, and that’s why the Brady Ware women’s initiative is successful.” For me to have a legacy and to pass this on to someone, I’ve got to find someone with that same thing. You lead with the heart. We’ve had some success with that. It was a very nice compliment, for sure, and I’ve tried to use that in other areas, if I have that much passion. When I don’t have that kind of, where I can lead from the heart, I kind of question should I be doing this?

[00:07:14]   You’ve got to focus on long-term results, when you are an authentic leader. You don’t waste a whole lot of time worrying about maybe temporary setbacks or things that just didn’t go well. You cannot always have a stellar month. You cannot always have a stellar year. You’ve got to look long term. You know this is the right thing. It takes patience, and it takes hard work, but you can yield some rich results in the long run. So, looking forward by learning from the past generally results in good. But, again, everything can’t be stellar and huge all the time.

[00:07:50]   I hope you get the correlation; I’m going to try to describe this … I ran in a 5K only one time. It was time to get my health in order, and the book I was reading at the time said, “Find the exercise you like, and you exercise.” I said, okay, I’m going to run. I’m going to be a runner. I prepped for the 5K, somewhat, and I loved more buying the shoes, and the matching gear, and being part of the big day more. It was a community thing. At the end of the day, the race was kind of tough, but I kept my focus because I did know – when I was tired – it’s like everyone else is doing this. We can get there. There is a finish line. I met the goal. I was part of the community. It’s all really good. I finished about mid-pack, which I didn’t think was bad because I was in my 50s. I wasn’t in first place. It wasn’t this big result, but it was all part of my health plan.

[00:08:51]   So, instead of going, “Well, that didn’t work,” I just moved on to something that maybe did work. It led me to the next part of my physical health, which was really just getting a trainer. I lost, over four, or five months’ time, about 19 pounds, 13 inches. Now, those habits are really in place. I wasn’t about what I was going to look like, when I worked out at the gym with her, or whatever it was. So, I took that and learned from my past; didn’t get buried down in that one more thing didn’t work about weight. Instead, I said I’m going to look at this long term.

[00:09:25]   I prep now; I focus; I’m more patient. If I would have just said, “No more 5ks. I’m done,” I wouldn’t have the amazing results I have right now. I didn’t waste time focusing on what I didn’t accomplish in that race. Instead, I found another way to move forward and applied that somewhat to how I lead in business. It’s okay that something didn’t work. If it doesn’t, don’t keep doing it over. I wasn’t going to keep running races that I wasn’t prepared for, but I am going to, day by day, deal with my health. So, focus on the long-term results.

[00:09:58]   Integrity … Just not there today. I had a great book back in the day about President Ronald Reagan, “When Character was King,” and it was all about integrity. I would still vote for him today. That would be who I’d write in on the ballot. He was authentic to me. He wasn’t perfect, but integrity mattered to him. Of course, I’m a pretty conservative person, so, of course, I’m going to be drawn to him, but integrity was key. He just didn’t say things to say them. Generally, hat he said he meant. I kind of look that way with Barack Obama, as well. President Obama was a progressive left; he said that. He also said, “This is what I believe, and this is what I’m going to do.” There wasn’t any- What’s the word I want? There wasn’t any delusion about it. They both had different ways about their character, and integrity, because they were doing what they believed, and what they said, they meant. They were respected, yet two very, very different men.

[00:10:59]   Chances are, two people can say the same thing. The one who’s listened to probably has integrity and probably has some credibility, especially with the world we have today. If you really step back and go, “I want to understand more about integrity. I’ve got to figure that out, and character, that matters in my character …” you will be a leader, far past a lot of people.

[00:11:26]   You have to lead with vision. Authentic leaders lead with purpose and vision. Chances are, they’re going to add value to the people that they interact with, the team, and they’re going to help people also be part of the vision. They are not just the vision. That’s why I say- that’s only five, and I’m exhausted thinking about all the things I have to do to be the leader. We’ve got five more … We’ll finish up.

[00:11:50]   Listening skills and carefully speaking. What a mess we are in today with the ability to not listen and the ability to say whatever we think, and we call that freedom. Well, I look at it as a good leader … As we are making decisions right now about a next president, a good authentic leader is a good listener. Even when they don’t like your views, or you don’t like theirs, there’s listening involved.

[00:12:22]   Authentic leaders also monitor their words. They’re very careful to how they say things to the audience. Not because of political correctness, which has gone beyond, they do it because maybe they’re sensitive to the person who’s going to hear those; the impact, the actions. They’re not just messaging the right talking points. People can read right through that. Too much of today, and not just in politics, but our culture, in general, is we don’t listen, and we speak way too quickly. You want to be a better leader? People will gravitate to you, if you have listening skills and carefully speak. It’s definitely part of being that authentic leader.

[00:13:09]   Transparency … Authentic leaders obviously believe in open communication and combine their directness with empathy. I hope you heard that. They combine their directness with empathy. Transparency doesn’t mean, “Well, I told you, and I spilled my guts, and now everyone knows everything.” That might be transparency. It also might be maybe a little stupidity. “What you see is what you get” – that can be dangerous. “Well, this is just who I am!” Those things are not transparency.

[00:13:37]   We had somebody who, years ago, they were my client and always talked about his faith; always talked about transparency, and open, and honesty. Yet everyone knew he was having an affair with the administrative assistant. Everyone knew it. He didn’t know that everyone knew it … So, his transparency, no matter what, wasn’t there. It just wasn’t there. We really need it today. Transparency is about open communication; being direct with some empathy; and not just saying what you think needs to be said. People see who you are, most of the time, or they at least have some idea.

[00:14:18]   Consistency … Consistent people in your life. I want you to be thinking, who is that, and why do you go to that person on your team? It’s because they’re consistent, and you can count on them. Well, they need the same thing from you as a leader. They’re not probably going to be allured into things and allow things that just don’t … They’re not with the plan. They’re not with the steps. They’re not with what needs to happen. Consistency is a huge important thing. Sometimes, you need to divert; sometimes, you need to take another fork in the road. I get that, but, generally, in business and when you’re leading, and you want a team to follow, you can’t live in too much ‘let’s just shoot from the hip and go over here.’ You’ve got to stay with some things, and consistency is part of that.

[00:14:57]   Probably the hardest things for leaders, especially authentic, but this is one you could really just say, “I’m going to make an effort on this,” is sharing your success with your team. Everybody wants to take the credit for it. Really, when you build the team around you, and give credit, and you do it as a team, you have so much- so much more different results.

[00:15:17]   Drawing on experience … I’m 56, and I have a lot to say, and I probably have a lot of good stories to tell you. It doesn’t mean, because I tell them, and I learned the hard way, it makes me authentic. But stellar leadership will absolutely share their experiences and really have compassion that you don’t experience that. Or they might have compassion for you to experience it because you need to.

[00:15:39]   Rhett Ricart is a common name in Columbus. Of course, they have Ricart Ford, which is a- many years, it’s been number one in the country. It’s a huge, huge organization. He’s a great speaker, and he does a great presentation on his 13 mistakes. He takes that experience, and he throws it out there and says, “This is what I did.”

[00:16:02]   One of the ones I loved, he talked about ‘Don’t teach your employees to steal.’ I’m like, wow … He said, because, you know, if you were a Ricart, you could fill up your gas tank and get your tires changed, and no one ever paid for any of that. You just ate lunch on the … All the different things you do as an owner. Then, when your employees start doing that, you’re kind of mad, because you’re like, “What are you doing?” “Well, you guys do it. You’re employees here. Okay, you’re owners, but …” He just talked very, very openly about, “These are the things I didn’t do well, and I don’t want you to do that.” He’s very authentic about it. He doesn’t talk about he was perfect the whole way and that’s why they’re number one.

[00:16:40]   Authentic leadership – I’ll end with this. Your team deserves it. It’s next to impossible to do all 10 of these, but I would certainly look at the ones where you’re struggling in and make an effort to put some change there; to get your mindset differently and to really get some open, honest communication about it because your team deserves it. They need you to strive towards becoming the authentic leader. Then, one day, you’ll probably create authentic leaders around you. I’m Betty Collins. Thank you for listening today.

 

Decision Vision Episode 60, “How Can My Business Survive the Covid-19 Crisis?” – An Interview with Tommy Marsh, Brady Ware

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Survive the Covid-19 Crisis
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 60, "How Can My Business Survive the Covid-19 Crisis?" – An Interview with Tommy Marsh, Brady Ware
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Survive the Covid-19 Crisis
Tommy Marsh, Brady Ware & Company

Decision Vision Episode 60, “How Can My Business Survive the Covid-19 Crisis?” – An Interview with Tommy Marsh, Brady Ware & Company

Many business owners right now are asking “how can my business survive the Covid-19 crisis?” In this episode of “Decision Vision,” veteran CPA Tommy Marsh addresses the various SBA relief programs of the CARES Act, how they help business, and much more. The host of “Decision Vision” is Mike Blake, and this series is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Tommy Marsh, Brady Ware & Company

Tommy Marsh has more than 25 years’ experience in public accounting. Prior to joining the Brady Ware family, he was a tax partner with Marsh & McConnell for 21 years.

Tommy’s responsibilities include general business consulting, strategic planning and tax and audit services. He also specializes in Federal and State income tax laws and regulations as they relate to closely held corporations and partnerships, as well as personal and financial, income and estate planning. He has significant experience in obtaining IRS ruling requests, approval for changes in tax accounting methods, and tax issues relating to problems that arise in connection with complex business transactions.

Tommy is a member of the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce, the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants, as well as the Georgia Society of CPAs.

To get in touch with Tommy, you can email him or call him directly at 678-350-9503.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Michael Blake is Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

“Decision Vision” is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the “Decision Vision” podcast. Past episodes of “Decision Vision” can be found here. “Decision Vision” is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:05] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions. Brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service accounting advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make vision a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:25] And welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ prospective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:45] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a Director at Brady Ware $ Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving our view of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:12] This is the fifth of a subseries of topics regarding how to address the coronavirus crisis. And specifically, we’re discussing managing and leading companies in a shutdown shelter-in-place world. And we’ve gone pretty granular for the first four topics, ranging from data security, to managing remote teams, to being an effective remote worker. And by the time this is published, we may or may not have also published addressing your real estate obligations in a shutdown world.

Mike Blake: [00:01:51] But I want to sort of draw back a little bit and look at this from a 30,000-foot perspective because in addition to managing the very granular aspects of managing a company through a crisis, there is also the broad discussion of just how do you run a company in this environment and how do you lead. And let’s kind of put our cards on the table right now. We are collectively living inside of a horror movie, with the exception of we don’t have the don’t-open-that-door kind of thing. But we’re living in an unprecedented environment. And unless you’ve had – I don’t know – bomb diffusing training or something like that, none of us have specific training in how to handle a scenario like this.

Mike Blake: [00:02:53] And I think the best teacher for this kind of thing, quite candidly, is experience because, again, I don’t think there’s a course that Harvard is offering that is the Coronavirus and You: How to Manage your Company in a World That’s Being Afflicted with a Pandemic. And I think there are just sort of broad questions and conversations that as leaders, as decision makers, we would like to have, we’re trying to have, and maybe we have something in our region, in our network, or our ecosystem that can have that with us; maybe we don’t.

Mike Blake: [00:03:33] And what I want to do with the show is I want to make available too, quite candidly, one of the wisest business people I know and one of the guys you want to be in a foxhole with. And full disclosure, he is technically my boss. So, as a listener, you can decide if I’m sucking up to him or not, but if you’ve known me for more than five minutes, you know I’m not a suck-up guy. But I’ve taken an instant liking to Tommy Marsh ever since I joined the firm almost two and a half years ago. And in the short period of time, he’s become something of a mentor that I wish I’d had much earlier in my career and rarely did have. He just got a common sense to him and a way of cutting through the bullshit, but a way of addressing it with a level of humanity and compassion that you don’t see all that often, including in the accounting industry. And I think you’ll enjoy the next 45 minutes we’re going to spend with him as much as I’ve enjoyed being able to learn from him over the last two years.

Mike Blake: [00:04:45] Tommy has more than 25 years of experience in public accounting and is the managing director of our Alpharetta, Georgia office. Prior to joining the Brady Ware family, he was a tax partner with a firm called Marsh McConnell for 21 years, which, of course, that’s his name. He was co-owner and he was running that, running and owning that firm. Tommy is an involved in general business consulting, strategic planning and tax audit services. He specializes in federal and state income tax laws and regulations. They relate to closely held corporations and partnerships, as well as personal financial income and estate planning, does all this accounting stuff, yada, yada, yada. He’s a member of the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce, AICPA, and the Georgia Society of CPAs.

Mike Blake: [00:05:32] But most importantly, what he does on a daily basis, I think he would tell you himself, he doesn’t do all that much raw accounting stuff anymore. He’s the guy that clients come to when they just got problems, and they’ve got major issues with their company that are potentially company or career-threatening, and they come to him for advice. And that’s the kind of guy that you want involved, that you want to ask these kinds of questions because every business, I don’t care even if you’re making N95 masks and you’re making ventilators, this environment, if you don’t navigate correctly, is an existential threat to us all. And so, great advice is it’s never been more important. And I’m so delighted I could convince Tommy to take some time off the tennis court and join us today. Tommy, welcome to the program.

Tommy Marsh: [00:06:33] Mike, thank you so much. I learned a couple of things about myself in that introduction, and it’s much appreciated. I will leave my ring on your desk because we got to have six feet apart, but I will leave it on your desk in order for you to pay the proper homage. But in all seriousness, Mike, thank you for the introduction, and I’m proud to be your partner. So, job well done.

Mike Blake: [00:07:01] So, Tom, let’s get into some background. When we say that you’re with Marsh & McConnell for 21 years. Were you the owner or and owner of that firm for all 21 years?

Tommy Marsh: [00:07:13] Yes, I’ve been in public accounting for about 38 years. And you sort of sharpen your teeth on the early years, I was with a regional farm. And then, once, I was traveling a lot. And when I started having children, I wanted to be in Atlanta versus being on a plane traveling and consulting. But I hooked up with a guy named Bob Humberstone, and myself, and Margaret McConnell, bought him out eventually. And therefore, I became an owner at about, probably, I don’t know, 20 some odd year, maybe 25 some odd years ago. So, I wasn’t a partner/of Marsh & McConnell for the 20 plus years you’ve indicated.

Mike Blake: [00:08:02] And in your career, how many financial crises have you had to weather, either as a business owner or as an executive that has to make these tough decisions?

Tommy Marsh: [00:08:14] Well, obviously, the two that come to mind, and I’m going to throw you a third one, but basically in 2008, that was the “Great Recession days” that that we all experienced. It was pretty much in the real estate world, but it also impacted banking, and financing, and a lot of industries across the board. That was a tough, tough time for a lot of people, a lot of businesses. So, that was probably the major one. The second one is what we’re experiencing today. I have never seen something like this before. So, this has got to be one of the major financial issues that are facing us today.

Tommy Marsh: [00:09:05] Now, being a CPA for a small practice and in the Marsh & McConnell years, I believe the other financial crisis that we had is with clients. When a client of yours loses a key employee, or they lose a bank funding, or they lose a line on a distributorship, I believe that I’ve had crises along the way. Nothing of magnitude as the 2008 or 2020 crisis that we’re going through today, but I can’t even tell you how many I’ve experienced of that on the front lines with clients.

Mike Blake: [00:09:48] Is this the worst crisis you think you’ve experienced in your career?

Tommy Marsh: [00:09:56] Absolutely. And I think when you talk about the 2008 Great Recession, it’s now behind us. It’s in the rearview mirror. When you talk about the 2020 coronavirus pandemic, we’re still living it. As you said, when we first started talking this morning is that we’re living it, we’re in the middle of it. And my experience has been that I believe that the unknown, most of the time, is worse than the known. And so, we’re still in the unknown part of this, whether it’s a health issue that you’re worried about, a loved one, or your children, or your spouse, or what have you from a health issue, but you’re also in a situation to where from a business owner, what’s going to happen? And so, that’s why I think for right now, it is absolutely terrifying on some stages.

Tommy Marsh: [00:10:55] However, we all know that the unknown is worse than the known. So, hopefully, in the next — and I’m not trying to put a deadline on this, but at the same token, we need to get back to work. Is that 30 days? Is that forty five? Is that 60 or 90? Only time will tell. So, yes, this is absolutely the worst situation I’ve seen in my career.

Mike Blake: [00:11:24] In the past, let’s go back to the ’08-’09 Great Recession, you and I were both advising clients back then. What advice have you given to clients in the past from financial stocks that came to you and said, “Tommy, what’s going to happen? The economy is obviously going to take a massive turn for the worse.” And they’re saying, “What do I do? What do I have to be doing?” What piece of advice that you find yourself most commonly giving out?

Tommy Marsh: [00:11:56] Well, obviously, advice is pretty much client-specific. You may have one client that really has not been impacted. So, our advice to them is, hey, it’s the general discussion and the general consulting that we do on a daily basis. Other clients typically have specific advice, but the over ending advice that I give clients is it is going to be okay. I may not know 100% what it looks like, but I believe with my experience and as much as I’ve been through the last 38 years in my industry, it’s all going to be okay. It may not look like it was prior to this, but at the end of the day, it’s all going to be okay. If we can hang in there long enough, and be healthy, and survive all of this, which I believe we will, we’ll come out the other side, and it’s all going to be okay.

Tommy Marsh: [00:12:59] Way back in my career. I would get nervous, I guess is the word, that if a client got in trouble or one of my largest clients declared bankruptcy, as a business owner, you become nervous, and what’s going to happen next, and am I going to survive and feed my family, and what have you? The reality is at the end of the day, it’s the human spirit that’s going to overcome, and we’re going to come out the other side better. Maybe a little bit different, but we’re going to come out the other side. I’m always betting on me, and you, and the clients, and the human spirit to get through this. And I believe it’s all going to be okay. So, that’s probably the 30,000-foot specific advice is it’s all going to be okay.

Mike Blake: [00:13:54] So, I know you, as I have, have fielded calls and have taken meetings with with clients about this. What are the most common worries that they’re expressing to you right now?

Mike Blake: [00:14:10] Well, it depends on the industry. So, one of the first, about the middle of March when this really was starting to shape up to where the economy was going to get shut down for whatever reason, it really depends upon what industry that you’re at. One of my trade show vendors called up and said, “When will this be over?” And I said, “Well, I’m not sure.” But if you know anything about the trade show industry, they didn’t postpone their trade shows, they canceled them. So, his worry was, “When will it get back to normalcy?” And he thinks it’s going to be in the fall. So, all the planning that we have done is for the fall.

Tommy Marsh: [00:15:01] A charity event client of mine suffered the same type of situation to where, overnight, all of his charity events that he supports were canceled. And right now, they’re pushing to have them in the fall again. So, his biggest concern and his biggest worry was, “I have assembled the best team that I’ve ever put together. How can I keep them all together? How can I keep my my great team together?”

Tommy Marsh: [00:15:33] A project company called me up, and he manufactures large displays for whether it’s a large construction client here in town or what have you. His revenue went from $7 million down to zero. “How am I gonna pay for the rent? How can I keep my my team together? How am I going to survive this and pay for my bills?” So, at the end of the day, even the hair salon that we represent, she called me up and said, “Hey, I closed the shop, sent everybody home. Will unemployment benefits be enough to take care of my team that I’ve had for the last 10 or 15 years?”

Tommy Marsh: [00:16:23] All four of those examples happened within about two and a half days of each other in the middle of March because they saw what was coming, and they were looking at what was gonna happen economically. So, at that point, most of them were just really, really, really worried, not only about their business but really about the people that work with the small business owner that they care about. So, really, it’s specific of what industry that you’re in, but you can give a sampling and a taste of what people are worried about going forward. So, those are some true-to-life examples. Obviously, I could give you probably 10 more. But then we went from 45 minutes to about an hour and fifteen, and I’m not sure we want to do that.

Mike Blake: [00:17:13] So, we, along with the rest of our industry, is scrambling to understand how the recently passed CARES/Payroll Protection Program Act is going to operate. And I think we’re starting to get a handle on it. But the interpretations are still a work in progress. But at the end of the day, I know a lot of, in particular, small businesses are looking at that as a potential savior. In your mind, how helpful do you think that is going to be for small businesses? And are you telling people to, “Yeah, this is going to be great, and it is a true lifeline,” or are you telling them that, “Maybe you should manage your expectations? This is great, but it’s not going to solve the whole thing”? Where do you kind of come down on that?

Tommy Marsh: [00:18:13] Well, that is a great question. So, a couple of comments on the frontend are, is that from about the middle of March and even to the end of March, we kept hearing about the SBA programs, and the CARES Act, and the TPP loans, and what have you. The way I see the world is that there’s really two groups of the CARES Act that is available or you could use it to your benefit.

Tommy Marsh: [00:18:45] The first part of it is your typical, what they call as the EIDL loan. It stands for economic injury disaster loan. And that is an SBA program that you go online and you apply for, which is truly a disaster loan to be able to borrow money from the federal government in order to keep your business open. You have to use the money for overhead, but that’s okay, right? In other words, if we have a good business, and we’re going to come out the other side, this is a great, great means for businesses to borrow money. And this disaster loan is no different than when a tornado hits a small town, they need relief, or a flood, they need relief, or a drought. You’re trying to loan moneys to businesses in order to survive. So, from that first part of this CARES Act, I think that’s very, very, very powerful and very, very good for the government to provide that. So, I highly recommend that. We have a lot of our clients applying for it. And hopefully, we’ll hear success stories of them funding it, and we’re starting to get that right now, is that we’re hearing clients are getting to receive the money.

Mike Blake: [00:20:13] Yeah. Go ahead.

Tommy Marsh: [00:20:16] Go ahead, Mike.

Mike Blake: [00:20:16] I was just going to say I’ve also started to see things trickling through our own internal communications and elsewhere that the money is actually starting to flow. So, in spite of the fact that I think the banks are taken a little bit by surprise that they’re going to be the frontend of processing this, and they’re scrambling to develop intake procedures and capacity. It looks like they’re actually starting to rise to the occasion fairly quickly.

Tommy Marsh: [00:20:43] And they have. And what’s interesting is up until about, again, three days to a week ago, the CPAs, not only myself but other CPAs around the country, are on the frontlines of answering questions that they really don’t know the answers to yet. So, I know it’s frustrating to some clients, but we can only do the best we can with the information that we have.

Tommy Marsh: [00:21:08] However, the other side of it is, of the CARES Act, is really it’s a separate, for lack of a better word, a bucket. And the other bucket, there’s really three things going on in this proverbial bucket that I’ve described. And basically the CARES Act, I believe, and this is my personal opinion, is trying to provide relief to people to survive two and a half months. And the reason I say that is if you break it down further, then the two and a half months, you’ll hear about the stimulus checks that individuals are getting 1200 bucks if your income is under $75,000. If you’re married jointly, you’re getting 2400 bucks. I’m not saying that everybody’s going to survive two and a half months on that kind of money, but from the stimulus side of the government, they are providing these stimulus checks, I believe, to individuals to try to weather the storm for a period of time.

Tommy Marsh: [00:22:15] The second thing that they’re doing is, is that they are maintaining in the CARES ACT, is that an employer that keeps their payroll in place, there are great credits available to them against future payroll taxes, which benefits people to keep their payroll and their team in place. So, that is a great opportunity. See your accountant to help you calculate those credits.

Tommy Marsh: [00:22:45] And then, the last would be the infamous PPP loan, which is the Paycheck Protection Program Loan. And that’s the one that’s getting the most press because if you maintain your payroll for two and a half or two months, you can borrow up to two and a half times your average monthly payroll. But if you can survive the two months of paying your regular payroll, I believe it’s in hopes that the economy gets started again and things get back to normal. So, when you look at the CARES Act, a lot of it is, “Hey, let’s see if we can survive the next two and a half months,” which we will, which we will, but that’s a that’s a high-level summary of the CARES Act in order for businesses to consider to keep going for two and a half months.

Mike Blake: [00:23:42] I agree with that. The math I did was that this is a $2.5 trillion rescue package, and the non-government piece of our national GDP is about $16 trillion of GDP, right? And so, when you work through the math, that does turn out to be 10 weeks or so of GDP in effect that the government is now replacing, right? Give or take what’s being produced by elsewhere in the economy. So, I think you’re right.

Tommy Marsh: [00:24:16] That’s very well put and that’s a great point, I believe, that whatever they’re trying to do and, again, what we’re hearing success stories that clients are now beginning to get some money, but if you think about it, there’s two things going on. What can the government do to help the citizens and small business out to get to the next event to where we’re back outside and we’re not on shelter-in-place type of things, which is under Georgia and what have you? So, that’s the first part of it. The second part of it is that, all of a sudden, we’re going to have this trillion dollar debt, but in my opinion, today, we’re just trying to make it two and a half months, right? I mean-

Mike Blake: [00:25:05] We are.

Tommy Marsh: [00:25:05] Yeah, exactly. So, I believe that the stimulus package and the CARES is really just trying to get businesses and people to, “Let’s figure this out. Let’s give us two and a half months of survival.”

Mike Blake: [00:25:20] So, tax return deadlines have been pushed back. I think it’s to July, I should know this more, but I’m not an accountant. How many full do you think that is for most business owners? Do you think that that’s appreciated – just to take one thing off their plates, they can focus on what’s right in front of them?

Tommy Marsh: [00:25:37] Well, Mike, to be very blunt with you. I think it’s the greatest law ever invented because I’m a public accountant CPA. So, I think it’s very meaningful if you want to know the truth of the matter. Now, on a serious note, it did give us a break because what was interesting was as we all know historically how important the April 15th deadline is, you have all the cartoon characters of the accountant in the white shirt with the 10 key, and the green hat on, and the visor on, and cranking out the numbers, and all that’s true.

Tommy Marsh: [00:26:14] So, what was little disturbing on the front end was we kept hearing about these SBA loans and big breaks given to other businesses, but they really didn’t take their foot off the gas pedal until later on to where they passed it to where CPA firms could defer the filing or actually taxpayers with CPAs are part of helping them prepare their taxes until July 15th. So, you and I know, Mike, because we sent our staff home, right?

Mike Blake: [00:26:47] Yeah

Tommy Marsh: [00:26:47] On a Monday, we sent everybody home to work from home because we didn’t want anybody getting sick or trying not to get them sick. But it was a great, great relief to get the filing deadline. And they’ve just recently come out with more rules to state that a lot of the filings that are normally done between now and July 15th have pretty much all been extended. So, from that aspect from a CPA firm, it was huge.

Tommy Marsh: [00:27:17] Now, from a general business type of client, really, it helps them if they owe tax, right? So, in other words, if you owe tax and you’re trying to survive the next two and a half months, they’re probably not going to make their tax payments anyway because they’re trying to keep the doors open and keep their employees in place. At that moment, it is a huge benefit for the government not to charge the typical 1% interest rate from April 15th until July 15th. They have waived that. So, from that aspect, if you are owing money, that is a great, great benefit and very meaningful to those people who just picked up the interest carry on that.

Tommy Marsh: [00:28:08] If you have a refund, obviously, the group that have refunds are still pressuring the CPAs to get the returns done. And Brady Ware is continuing to do that. We’re still in full production in order to continuously serve the clients that we have. It’s just being done a little bit differently since everybody’s at home. But yeah, in order to get refunds, you should have to file. And we are in the process of doing that. So, from a huge meaning, I think the SBA loans and the CARES package was probably more meaningful than just the “July 15th” filing date. If you want to know the truth of the matter, well, that’s my opinion. That’s totally my opinion.

Mike Blake: [00:28:58] And I’ll say for an aside here, as a shameless plug, but as a semi-outsider because I’m not in the accounting side, my busy season is fourth quarter, not second quarter or first quarter. We’ve done a fantastic job, in spite of this disruption, getting through the workflow that we’ve had to get through. And my impression is that not only has our productivity not dropped, I think it’s actually improved. I don’t know if that sort of industry wide, but that’s my perception.

Tommy Marsh: [00:29:38] Well, and that’s great of you to say because your taxes in his fourth quarter of what you do. But at the same token, I’ve got to give it to our team here. Our leadership here, the managers and the offices, the the staff, the professionalism exhibited by our team has been second to none. And I’m sure CPA firms around the country feel the same way. But right now, our team is still taking phone calls, and e-mails, and production, and reviewing, and I’ll probably at least a handful of tax returns this afternoon and keep the ship going in the right direction. But I got to give it to our team, Mike. We have a great group of of team members here that carry the buckets of water uphill. So, I don’t get credit for that. The managers that put it in place get credit for it.

Mike Blake: [00:30:38] They’ve responded very well. And again, as a clause outside because I’m not doing that stuff, it’s been impressive. So, let’s touch upon this. What have you had to change? I mean, you’re still responsible for our office of 36 people. I know you want us to be safe. I know you want us to be engaged. We also still have a job to do. We still have the public trust to serve. We still have clients that got to get stuff done, especially ones that that have refunds, because they really need those refunds. How are you adapting to changing to this new this new reality?

Tommy Marsh: [00:31:27] Well, you know me pretty well, Mike. And you can tell I’m smiling when I say this, but when we sent our team—let me back up further than that. Even prior to sending our team to work from home, you were on the front lines of this, we were in the process of saying, “Hey, team members, with the Atlanta traffic, why don’t you work one day from home, and just stay in touch, and we’ll see how it works,” right? I mean, for an accounting firm or for me, that was a big change, right, because I’m old school, and let’s get in here, and let’s get your hours done, and the chargability, and all the things that go with that.

Tommy Marsh: [00:32:09] So, for me, personally, I believe sending everybody home has changed, I’m not going to say a lot. Maybe it changes the way I look at it because our team, given the chance to be professionals without being in the office professionally, they have risen to the occasion. So, from that aspect, when we sent everybody home that Monday, I got up on Tuesday, Mike, and the sky hadn’t fallen. I went to my car, the sky was still up in the sky. I couldn’t believe it. I figured we’d be all over the parking lot. But no, the sky did not fall with us sending everybody home.

Tommy Marsh: [00:32:51] Now, that’s a little tongue in cheek because as you know, Brady Ware takes great pride with our IT, and you can log in anywhere, and the things that we do. We were already ahead of the curve of that, in my opinion. But just from a from a leadership viewpoint, obviously, it’s been harder. As you know, if you’re here on a Friday, sometimes – and again, this is rumor – you may have a fireball Friday walking around. So, what’s happened? Rumor has it there may be some virtual happy hours. So, from a leadership viewpoint, what’s happening is, I believe, everyone is incredibly professional. I also believe from a leadership viewpoint that people, our team misses the social interaction of our office. And people are coming in. I’m actually at the office today. Don’t tell Governor Kemp. But I guess I’m essential, though. So, I guess I’m good there.

Mike Blake: [00:33:54] You are essential, Tommy.

Tommy Marsh: [00:33:56] Thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And so, what’s happening is, I think, people are coming, and they’re missing the social aspect of it, but you still got to run a business, you still got to look at the timesheets, you still got to look at production, you still got to return emails. And we’re still doing the 101 stuff, and the blocking, and tackling that we we need to do in order to take care of our clients.

Mike Blake: [00:34:21] And you’re right about that social interaction. Out of the Atlanta office, at least, we’re doing a virtual happy hour on Friday. And last Friday, half the office participated, which was remarkable. All we were doing was staring at people on the screen. Even one guy who is on vacation dialed in. I mean, I I think we need to get him counseling, but the gesture was nice. You’re right. I mean, it does show that the team has some resilience because they do miss each other. And you do have people like me on one end of the spectrum that will wander into the office once every two weeks or so just to remind people that I need a paycheck. But then, you have other people that really like to be in the office and get a good vibe from there.

Mike Blake: [00:35:11] And this segue nicely to my next question. Maybe one of the lessons, one of the good things that’s going to come out of this is we realize the sky doesn’t fall. We realize that we have hired well. We’ve always thought we hired well. We always thought we hired people that we could trust to be adults. But now, it’s been combat tested and it’s been proven victorious. And one of the things we’ve learned is that we can do this and we don’t need to focus on butts and seats anymore so much as productivity, which can maybe unleash some other good downstream effects down the road.

Tommy Marsh: [00:35:50] I totally agree. I think Brady where can look in the mirror a little bit because as I advise my clients, “Hey, why don’t you use this time to look at your business and to look at what changes you need to make, so when you come out the other side, what did we learn from it? What decisions needed to be taking place to get us to the other side? As well as once we get to the other side, then  what kind of culture and firm can you improve upon in order to be a better firm?” And that’s what I’ve been telling most clients or all clients, “Hey, look in the mirror and look at your business to see what needs to happen.”

Mike Blake: [00:36:36] And that segues, I think, into maybe the most important question I have in this interview. One of my previous interviews with a gentleman out in Silicon Valley named Shane Metcalf, and he runs basically an employee engagement software firm out there in Silicon Valley. And the thing that struck me from that interview – we just published that by the way – was he immediately looked at or turned the conversation to, how are we going to be better after all of this? And true Silicon Valley perspective, it was, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. We got the virus thing going on. It’s going to do its thing. It’s going to visit tragedy among people and families. And we’re doing the best we can. But from a business perspective, it’s also creating disruption, which also means that it creates opportunity.” Very Silicon Valley way of thinking, which I have now blatantly stolen from him because I think it’s the right way to think about it.

Mike Blake: [00:37:47] And I think you think about these things the same way too, right? You’re saying we’re going to come out of this. We don’t know when. We don’t know exactly how. Although I think companies should be planning now for what that looks like, what the restart process is. How do you think companies are going to — you can make this Brady Ware specific if you would like or make it more general. How do you think companies are going to be better? Or maybe how do you think you’re going to be better professionally from all this?

Tommy Marsh: [00:38:19] Well, great question. I’m one of the best tax guys in the city because every answer, it depends, right? So, you can always answer it that way.

Mike Blake: [00:38:29] You’ll make a great economist.

Tommy Marsh: [00:38:30] Yes, exactly. So, to me, it’s a two-step process. And the first step is that like what clients are asking me today, “Hey, what about this?” and “Hey, what can I change?” and “Hey, Tommy, I need your help.” Well, the reality is I took a real estate course at college and it taught me three things, right? Location, location, location, right? We all know that old real estate joke.

Mike Blake: [00:38:59] Yeah.

Tommy Marsh: [00:38:59] Well, what’s happening today is in the coronavirus environment is really it’s cash flow, cash flow, cash flow because we need to figure out the cash flow to get us to the other side. And part of that cash flow analysis is, what moneys do I have coming in. Whether it’s from sales, or SBA loans, or fat claim, or whatever you’re going to do, that’s the first aspect of it is to say, “Hey, what money do I have coming in?

Tommy Marsh: [00:38:59] The second tier is  typically—and again, every business is a little bit different, but a lot of our clients, one of their largest expenses is, obviously, salaries. So, do you rank your owner as number one and everyone else down to number 20 or whatever? And the theory behind it is, hey, if my sales have gone down 30%, do I need to look at 30% of my salaries? That is a question mark, by the way. It’s not a rule out there.

Mike Blake: [00:40:09] Yeah.

Tommy Marsh: [00:40:09] But once you look at it in good times. Mike, what happens? You don’t really address the problem employee. You don’t really hold them accountable like you should hold them accountable because things are good, and why do I have to rock the boat to a degree? Well, when things aren’t good, it is forcing people, companies to look at their business and make those tough decisions. So, once you do that, and you have to say, “You know what, my business is down 30%, I’ve got to get rid of 30% of my workforce in order to survive,” right? We’re trying to get the cash flow to get the other side. Then, at that moment, it’s really easy to let the problem employee go or the team member who really isn’t carrying the water uphill because it’s survival.

Tommy Marsh: [00:41:02] And then, the last thing is that once you do that, you analyze your overhead. And that’s a little bit easier approach because it’s easier to to tell the specialty water person that we can no longer use their services in the break room because it’s not essential. But once you do all of this, and you get to the other side, I believe all businesses are going to be stronger, including Brady Ware. Maybe we have work anywhere policies, maybe we only meet on Mondays, or Tuesdays, or something because it’s been proven if Brady Ware so far that we have a great professional staff without having to repeat all of. that.

Tommy Marsh: [00:41:46] So, to answer your question, what it’s going to look like? I don’t know, Mike, but what it’s going to look like they’re still writing the book while we’re reading it. But I think we’re going to come out the other end a lot stronger in leadership and more trustworthy. Not that we weren’t before, but we’re going to be more professional and let our team grow and blossom where they can grow and blossom.

Mike Blake: [00:42:11] Tommy, this has been a great conversation. We could easily have it go another hour. But I know you got a lot to do, and you got ants in your pants anyway. But if we haven’t covered something that somebody else had a question about or maybe they’d want to follow up on something that we have covered, is it okay if they contact you? And if so, how best can they do that?

Tommy Marsh: [00:42:35] Two ways. The first is  my e-mail address, which is tmarsh@bradyware.com. So, tmarsha@bradyware.com or my direct line is 678-350-9503. Please call.

Mike Blake: [00:43:03] That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I would like to thank Tommy Marsh of Brady Ware so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week or maybe even more frequently as we do these special episodes, but please to announce that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it.

Mike Blake: [00:43:23] If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. That helps you will find us, so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brandy Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision Podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 59, “How Do I Work at Home Effectively?” – An Interview with Shane Metcalf, 15Five

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Decision Vision
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 59, "How Do I Work at Home Effectively?" – An Interview with Shane Metcalf, 15Five
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how do I work at home effectively
Shane Metcalf, 15Five, and Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”

Decision Vision Episode 59, “How Do I Work at Home Effectively?” – An Interview with Shane Metcalf, 15Five

Because of “shelter in place” directives, millions of employees are now working at home for the first time and asking themselves, “how do I work at home effectively?” In this edition of “Decision Vision,” host Mike Blake explores various aspects of this question with Shane Metcalf, 15Five. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Shane Metcalf, Co-Founder and Chief Culture Officer of 15Five

how do I work at home effectively?
Shane Metcalf, 15Five

Shane Metcalf is the Co-Founder and Chief Culture Officer of 15Five. 15Five is a leading provider of people management software that not only guides employee growth and development but empowers people to become their best selves. Through strategic weekly check-ins, 15Five delivers everything a manager needs to maintain visibility and impact employee performance, including continuous feedback, objectives (OKR) tracking, recognition, 1-on-1s, and 360° reviews. 15Five is a top-rated performance management software on G2 and has won top culture and workplace awards, including ranking #3 Best Workplace in the nation on Glassdoor. Over 2,200 forward-thinking companies use the solution to bring out the best in their people. To learn more, please visit: https://www.15five.com/.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”

Michael Blake is Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

“Decision Vision” is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the “Decision Vision” podcast. Past episodes of “Decision Vision” can be found here. “Decision Vision” is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

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Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions, brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional, full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Michael Blake: [00:00:22] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners or executives’ perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Michael Blake: [00:00:40] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a Director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols. If you like this podcast, please subscribe to your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Michael Blake: [00:01:05] This is the third of a sub series of topics regarding how to address the coronavirus process. And specifically, today, we’re going to talk about, really, sort of the front line end user, if you will, of remote work. And that is the employee themselves. We’ve had a show on managing cybersecurity risk by moving outside of the enterprise firewalls and into the home. And we’ve had a discussion on how to lead and manage teams remotely, but I think it’s important that we don’t forget about the fact that the vast majority of people who are impacted by working from home are the people who are actually doing the work themselves.

Michael Blake: [00:01:48] And as it happens, I happen to be somebody that’s been working from home more or less the last 10 years. So, from my perspective, I’m not necessarily noticing that much of a difference, but I know that from talking to other people and reading other people’s experiences, it’s actually been quite jarring. And I hope that this podcast will help serve as a field guide to help people make that transition more easily.

Michael Blake: [00:02:15] So, in spite of the fact that I’ve been working at home for a good amount of time, I certainly do not consider myself an expert on the topic. And as we always do in this podcast, we bring in an expert of our own. And joining us today is Shane Metcalf, who is the CEO and Co-founder of 15Five, which is a leading provider of people management software that not only guides employee growth and development, but empowers people to become their best selves. Through strategic weekly check-ins 15Five delivers everything a manager needs to maintain visibility and impact employee performance, including continuous feedback, objectives tracking recognition, one-on-ones, and 360 degree reviews. 15Five is a top-rated performance management software on G2, and has won top culture and workplace awards, including ranking number three Best Workplace in the Nation on Glassdoor. Over 2200 forward thinking companies use the solution to bring out the best in their people. To learn more, please visit www.15five.com. Shane, thanks so much for coming on the program.

Shane Metcalf: [00:03:19] Michael, thanks for having me. What an unprecedented moment we’re in. And I think that it presents a lot of real challenges. And I think it also presents real opportunities. And, fundamentally, I think that we, as a business community, we kind of need to take a note at Darwin’s book. We need to adapt. I think this is really happening. We don’t know how long this is going to be the case, but I do know that the world won’t be the same. Even if some of the social distancing protocols get lifted, and we’re able to return to offices. I really don’t think that we’re going to be seeing the world that we saw before.

Michael Blake: [00:04:00] So, before we get started, if you can comment because you’re in San Francisco, at least, the San Francisco area, and we’re in Atlanta. California is effectively on what we would consider a lockdown, is that correct?

Shane Metcalf: [00:04:13] Yeah, that is correct. Yeah, only essential businesses are open, and everyone is highly discouraged from leaving the house. So, yeah. I think we were in the first state in the nation to go towards this. And hopefully, it’s working. It does seem to be flattening of the curve.

Michael Blake: [00:04:28] So, from a personal perspective, what’s that like for you, sort of, day-to-day? Most of our listeners I don’t think are in California or, thank God, not in a lockdown state; although, we do have quite a few in Ohio because of our offices there. On a personal level, before we get into the interview, how are you dealing with that?

Shane Metcalf: [00:04:45] Yeah. Well, I have a somewhat unique circumstance. I, typically, would work in the office four to five days a week. And little contacts. So, 15Five, we’re a couple hundred people. And we’ve actually been a semi-distributed team from the beginning. We have about 50% of our people working out of offices in North Carolina, and New York City, and the Bay Area. And the other half are throughout different states and different countries in Europe. And so, in some ways, this has actually been a somewhat seamless transition for us because we already had the infrastructure and the mindset for working remotely. And I think that’s something that I’m going to get into because so much of working remotely, and being effective, and being a successful experience comes down to mindset shifts from both the employer and the employees. And for me, I was actually already at home for the last couple of months because I just had my first kid, and I’ve been on this blissful paternity leave. And I lead the company, and everything’s great, and I disappear, and the whole world falls apart. I’m like, “Man, I really should have stayed, I guess.”

Michael Blake: [00:05:51] Right. I leave for two months, and what happens.

Shane Metcalf: [00:05:54] Yeah, come on. But so, it’s an interesting one for me because there’s, of course, challenges and opportunities inherent to it for me because on the one hand, it’s really great because as I’m getting back to work, I get to stay home and spend more time with my daughter. I don’t have to waste the time of commute. I get to be there and help in between meetings. And on the other hand, that’s okay, not only am I not working from home, I’m also working from home with a kid and a screaming baby and all of the challenges that that presents. And so, it is a really fascinating balancing act. And I think that fundamentally, we need to have compassion and flexibility for all of each other right now.

Shane Metcalf: [00:06:39] And I’m speaking. A lot of my perspective is coming out as a founder, as an executive at a company that is leading and managing the team, but I’m also the employee. And really, I am more certain than ever that this is the opportunity we’ve been waiting for to bring those empathy muscles, those compassion muscles, that humanity that we have been talking about as an essential component to building great companies and to building great culture, this is the moment where the rubber meets the road because you look at Maslow’s hierarchy, everyone isn’t just focused on work right now. As much as we’d like to think that, “Okay, , great. Well, all my employees are now at home working,” and they just flipped off the humans switch and flipped on the employee switch. Now, people are are very concerned. They don’t know if they’re going to get laid off. They don’t know if the economy is going to recover. They don’t know if they have enough food. They are inundated with a lot of uncertainty right now. And so, we, as employers, can actually say, “Hey, we get it. We’re human too. And we recognize your humanity. And we’re in this together. And there’s space for all of it. And we can still be a high-performing team.”

Michael Blake: [00:08:00] Because there’s nothing quite like having to try to be productive when you’re literally in the middle of what might be a horror movie.

Shane Metcalf: [00:08:05] Yeah, you’re right. That doesn’t work. We need to actually — and that’s where I think companies can actually play a role is if you look at the triune brain, this idea that we have kind of three different brains. We have our reptilian brain, our mammalian brain, and our cortex, our human brain. And survival is happening in the amygdala, in the reptilian brain. And we need to recognize that, create a little space for people to have their feelings and to be seen in the process of this because when that happens, okay, cool. I don’t have to cover my ass and pretend that I’m not freaked out right now or pretend that I’m not like trying to jump, ditch out between meetings to run to Costco because I don’t have any toilet paper, And shit, there’s no more toilet paper at Costco. And oh, my God, what are we going to do? We need to have allowance for the entire human experience.

Shane Metcalf: [00:09:10] And there’s certain ways that I think we can actually structure that. But fundamentally, I believe that it starts with a shift in mindset where instead of making people earn trust, we grant people trust. We say, “We know what we need to accomplish as a company. I’m going to grant you the trust that you’re going to accomplish that. And I’m not going to be there looking over your shoulder. I’m not going to be checking your logs to see what you’re searching for on your computer, because that’s a big problem with people of the fear of allowing people to work remotely is, what if they don’t work? What if they just slack off? And that can be a corrosive to a remote culture.

Michael Blake: [00:09:58] Well, true; although, I would argue. I would argue that that attitude is corrosive, whether you have a remote working paradigm or architecture or not.

Shane Metcalf: [00:10:09] Absolutely, absolutely.

Michael Blake: [00:10:09] So, it’s just to amplified.

Shane Metcalf: [00:10:12] And that’s a cool thing is that, actually, this entire coronavirus thing is, it’s an opportunity for every single company in the world to upgrade their culture, to upgrade their value system, to upgrade the operating system with how they think about the people in their company, because you know what, this whole paradigm of human resources, just the words, my humans are our resources, they’re lumps of coal I’m going to throw in the furnace and get a little steam at it. And actually, we’re human beings. We’re fully fledged human beings with thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, dreams, hopes, desires. And if we can start to actually recognize the humanity of our people in the workplace, pretty incredible things start to happen.

Michael Blake: [00:11:03] So, at the start of this conversation, you talked about the mindset. So, I’d like to start with that in terms of the formal kind of content here. And although it’s hard, I think it’s instructive. Put coronavirus aside for a second, because coronavirus or not, regardless of the circumstances, one day, you’re in the office; the next day, you can’t go in even if you want to. And you can’t go to Starbucks, you’re at home.

Shane Metcalf: [00:11:35] Well, lucky you if you can-

Michael Blake: [00:11:35] What mindset-

Shane Metcalf: [00:11:36] … go to Starbucks. Although, you can’t work at Starbucks.

Michael Blake: [00:11:39] Right. There, you can’t work there. Yes, you can get a coffee, right? But you can’t open up your laptop. I guess she could sit outside, but that would be weird. But talk about the mindset. As an employee, what is the mindset shift that you have to be prepared to embrace and pursue as you move from cubicle to home desk, or kitchen table, or couch, or wherever it is that you’re going to be working from?

Shane Metcalf: [00:12:05] Well, start by making a list of all the pros of working from home. Just get present to the reality of what the opportunity actually is. I don’t have to commute. I don’t have to deal with the crowded train. I don’t have to, you know, waste all that time. I get to not be less distracted. I have a higher chance of being able to enter deep, deep work flow states. I mean, open offices, it’s proven. It’s like they’re very economical, and they’re great for the social connections, but they are disastrous for deep work.

Michael Blake: [00:12:40] Right, they’re brutal.

Shane Metcalf: [00:12:41] Constant people flooding your space. And so, all of a sudden, “Ha! No one’s around. I can actually get some real work done.” And so, you have to make that list yourself. You have to personalize it. You have to look at, okay, look, this is a crazy situation, but what is good about this, and focus on the good. And then, the second thing is optimize your environment. Now, this is challenging. I mean, we have employees who — I have a — one of my guys is in New York City and in an apartment with three kids. A one-bedroom apartment with three kids or something. And there’s not really space for him to work at home. And so, those are challenging situations. And I have a lot of compassion and empathy for the people who don’t have home environments that are easily pivoted to being dedicated workspaces.

Shane Metcalf: [00:13:38] In those situations, I think that’s when you really want to start off utilizing technology – noise-canceling headphones. There’s a cool app that I’ve been playing around with, Krisp.AI. And it’s a noise canceling software. It’s not hardware, it’s a software that cancels all the noise coming from your background. Things like that are where you want to start optimizing the tools you’re using and the environment. For people who can create more of a home office space, optimize that. Create it. Put a little attention on it, clean it up, make it feel good. Our environment, that’s why we spend billions of dollars on designing cool office spaces is because our built environment affects our psychology. And so, don’t just neglect your home office.

Michael Blake: [00:14:35] There’s a variance in kind of cultural point, cultural in terms of American culture point that comes to mind just through this conversation. When I think Silicon Valley and I think California, I think of a mindset generally that looks at all disruption as an opportunity, right? And I don’t think everybody is necessarily hardwired for that. But I think it’s really interesting, the first words out of your mouth are not that this is going to be lousy but, rather, what is the opportunity this disruption provides? I think that’s really interesting.

Shane Metcalf: [00:15:11] Well, yeah. And I think that that’s part of what helps call the amygdala because we were in a fight or flight or freeze state, what we can start to do to shift, that is actually start focusing on what we’re grateful for. What is the positive element of that? And then, actually, start to change our brain chemistry. Now, know this from neuroscience, like, if you’re in a heightened state of survival, just saying, “I’m afraid, but I’m also grateful that I’m still alive,” or “I’m afraid that I might lose my job, but I also don’t know if that’s going to happen, and I’m grateful that I have a job right now,” it actually starts to change our neurology and opens up more creative thinking opportunities. And so, yeah. Look, this is an opportunity. I mean, there is an enormous hardship that we’re gonna be going through.

Shane Metcalf: [00:16:10] And what’s remarkable, it’s not just an American crisis. It’s not just an Italian crisis. It’s not just a Chinese crisis. It is a human crisis. I’ve never been alive in a time where all of humanity was experiencing the same collective crisis and that we actually took it seriously.

Michael Blake: [00:16:31] Yeah, nor have I. And I think you’d have to go back to the Cuban Missile Crisis. And that’s before, even a little before my time. But, yeah, I think you’re right about that.

Shane Metcalf: [00:16:39] And not just the potential of a crisis.

Michael Blake: [00:16:39] What-

Shane Metcalf: [00:16:44] And I mean, I do believe there is going to be enormous surge of companies that get created to fulfill the demands of this moment. And I mean, people are having to pivot their business models. And wait, this is more, I guess, from the entrepreneurial perspective, but there are enormous problems. And anytime there’s a problem, there are opportunities to build companies and products that service that problem.

Michael Blake: [00:17:13] What do you think is the most common misperception about working from home for somebody that hasn’t done it, really hasn’t experienced it? What do people perceive about working from home versus the reality?

Shane Metcalf: [00:17:27] Well, I think that people, when you’re confronted with that prospect of working from home that there’s gonna be no emotional connection to the other people in the company, that there’s not going to be any kind of the watercooler talk, just the random social interactions that really contribute to a sense of well-being at work. And now, that’s not necessarily the default, but what you can do is it’s not rocket science to start doing some social engineering to create opportunities for that kind of social interaction. Every Friday at our company, we do this thing called Question Friday. It’s never been more valuable. And what we do is we take a half an hour, everybody gets on a Zoom call, there’s a question master for the month, and they ask a kind of a random non-business related question, an ice breaker question. And then, we break out into Zoom rooms of 10 to 20 people each, and everybody goes around and answers.

Shane Metcalf: [00:18:28] And what’s so cool as you get this deep perspective. You learn about your colleagues at pretty deep levels. And all of a sudden, you’re actually having this human connection. And I would say that practice alone is one of the reasons why we’ve been ranked number three best place to work in the country by Glassdoor, that we do things to encourage the non-business-related human connection. And that’s more important than ever. We began all of our all-hands meetings with five minutes of every Monday, we do a five-minute gratitude meditation. Now, it’s not just immediately, “Okay, here’s the business numbers, people. Here’s how we’re tracking on our objectives.” That’s important too but, also, just a little little micro doses of connection that remind us that we’re actually all just human beings doing the best that we can.

Michael Blake: [00:19:28] So, you’re put in this position now as a remote worker. What of the most important habits that you need to focus on developing right away in order to make this a success?

Shane Metcalf: [00:19:40] Yeah. Well, look, don’t just throw your whole routine out the window now that you’re not coming into the office. Create a sense of, “Okay, great. Well, what’s my mornings look like? What does my morning practice look like? How do I get prepared for the day?” Don’t necessarily just wear sweat shirt, sweat pants, and t-shirts. Our clothing actually affects our psychology. So, put on a button up shirt, get dressed up, see how that actually changes your psychology around this. You want to ensure that there is an abundance of communication.

Shane Metcalf: [00:20:18] In the absence of information, people often go negative. When we aren’t hearing from each other, when we don’t know what we’re working on, without systems of accountability built in, it’s easy to just be like, “Oh, I don’t know if anyone is actually working.” And so, you want to create systems and processes that encourage an abundance of of good communication. And so, that’s where asynchronous check-ins come in, asking the questions like, “How are you feeling? What’s going well? Where are you stuck? What do you need help with?” is insanely valuable because it allows people to share their real experience and the truth of what’s actually happening for them – the wins and the challenges. And then, that allows for you to have really productive one-on-ones.

Shane Metcalf: [00:21:12] And I mean, also, I mean, there’s a lot of fundamentals. And what I would actually encourage our readers to do,w e just released an article that is everything we know about remote working, everything that we’ve learned in eight years of doing this and building an award-winning culture, and we’ve put that all into a pretty meaty medium article, and we can link to it in the show notes, but it has all of our best advice.

Michael Blake: [00:21:40] So-

Shane Metcalf: [00:21:42] Yeah. And other habits, I think that you want to engage in an appropriate amount of kind of — we use Slack and Zoom for everything. Like our three essentials are Zoom, Slack, and 15Five because that allows for video connection, which is really important, video over everything. Don’t minimize the phone calls. Turn on video for your calls. It’s really important to still see each other, to see that, yeah, I’m not just a disembodied voice. I’m actually the human. And the micro expressions that happen with the whole body. I mean, we know that something like 70% of communication actually happens nonverbally. And so, when we go virtual, we miss a lot of that. And video is the closest we can get to it until we have holograms or something.

Michael Blake: [00:22:37] Yeah, that’s a good point. Now, of course, one subtle but important difference in our current environment is that many remote workers didn’t necessarily work from home, right? And working from home is a subset of working remotely, but that presents its own kind of unique challenges, doesn’t it?

Shane Metcalf: [00:23:00] Yeah. Look, the home can be an non-predictable, and chaotic, and demanding place. I used to prefer not to work from home because when I work from home, it’d be like, “Oh, you know what, I got to take the trash out.” And my wife would be like, “Yeah, you’ve got to take the trash out, buddy.” I go, “I got to go do a little maintenance on that thing.” And there are a lot. There can be more distractions at home. And so, it, fundamentally, becomes also a process and a practice of self-discipline.

Shane Metcalf: [00:23:32] And so, if you can start to get clear, “Well, what does my ideal day of working from home look like?” and maybe that is that involves creating some — I don’t know if you can hear it, but my baby’s crying right now. And my kids are with my wife, and I can hear it, and I’m like, “Oh, man. Okay. I’m doing this podcast. And maybe the crying baby’s gonna get picked up by mic. And now, that’s on the recording of the podcast.” And you know what? I just have to be okay with that. Like we have to have a little more allowance for some of the unpredictable elements that get introduced to our business meetings. And being okay with a little bit more integration between the personal and the professional.

Shane Metcalf: [00:24:22] So, get clear on what you actually need to be productive at home. And part of this comes down to setting boundaries of saying, “Look, honey, I know that I’m home, but I’m not going to be able to help with the kids between these hours. Like, I need to go lock myself in the room and get into deep focus.” And so, personal discipline and boundary setting is more important than ever if we’re gonna be successful at working from home.

Michael Blake: [00:24:52] I think that boundary setting, I think that’s a really good point, that it’s worth pausing and spending some time on because it likely is also not going to be something that simply happens organically. If you just assume, “I’m gonna be okay, and the other person’s gonna be okay picking up whatever it is I’m not picking up. There’s no communication. That’s a recipe for disaster.

Shane Metcalf: [00:25:12] That’s expectations, which guarantee will lead to disappointment?

Michael Blake: [00:25:17] And I’m not putting myself in the position of a marriage counselor. I don’t want to put you in that position unless you want to. But it does sound to me like that needs to be a very intentional discussion in order for an arrangement to be tenable.

Shane Metcalf: [00:25:32] Yeah. Well, look, like at the office, we have, hopefully, a series of explicit agreements around how we’re gonna behave. If you’re going to go take a conference room, there’s usually a social agreement that you need to sign up for that conference room. Otherwise, there’s no guarantee you’re gonna get actually get it. There’s a social contract that you’ll clean your dishes after you use them in the office, things like that. There’s a multitude of agreements that we have in our working environments.

Shane Metcalf: [00:26:02] It’s no different at home. We need to take things out of implicit expectations and into explicit agreements with the other people that we live with or even with ourselves. Like I’m going to make an agreement that I’m not going to sleep in, and I’m actually going to get up, and I’m going to shave, and I’m going to get dressed, and I’m going to make my coffee, and I’m going to be sitting down at whatever hour, and start my day on a positive note.

Michael Blake: [00:26:35] So, one challenge, you sort of touched on this, but I want to hit it explicitly is, unless you happen to be like you or me, where we’ve had kind of this lifestyle for a while, your home isn’t set up to be an office, right? Like you said, homes are chaotic. And I think to my mind, my own personal experience, I never realized how chaotic home is until I actually worked here.

Shane Metcalf: [00:26:59] Yes.

Michael Blake: [00:27:01] You get a different perspective than if you’re just sort of home kind of part time, you sort of see how the sauces, and see all the answer [indiscernible], whatever analogy you want to have. So, I think many people then walk back into a chaotic environment. Are there any other tips you can think of that can help an employee kind of gain control over that chaos? You’ll never stamp all of it out but, at least, manage the chaos, so that you can get things done, meet your obligations professionally, and not lose your sanity.

Shane Metcalf: [00:27:38] Yeah. Well, look, I think that it starts with, well, what’s your vision for your home? I mean, this is a great opportunity for people to upgrade their home environments. If there’s a lot of chaos, well, what is controllable? Is it that you need to repurpose a room that’s, right now, used for something else and you say, “You know what, this is now my home office, and I’m going to paint the walls, and I’m going to go ask my employer if I can go steal a desk from the office and bring it home.”

Shane Metcalf: [00:28:09] And so, what you really want. Like, actually, open up in Word Doc, and write out a vision for what you want your home to look like, and what your experience of working at home can be. And then, come up with some strategies. Like vision and strategy. It’s no different than writing the business plan. Like, what’s the vision? What do we really want to create here? I want to have uninterrupted flow states at home. I want to feel good about the space that I’m in. I want a beautiful environment. I want to get the right technology. And then, my strategy is, “Okay, great. I’m going to go, I’m going to procure a desk. I’m going to borrow one from the office, or go get one myself, or order one. I’m going to set it up.” I mean, this this room I’m in, this is the first time I’ve set up. This is my home office. And I’m actually pretty stoked. I’m like, “Oh, wow, I’m digging this.”

Shane Metcalf: [00:29:08] And so, come up with this strategy. But again, work. Human beings are so incredibly resourceful and creative. And so, apply that, get to liberate because one of my big messages around culture is the culture happens regardless of whether you’re deliberate about it or not. And if you’re not deliberate about it, then it’s going to it’s going to reflect some of your worst unconscious habits and conditioning. If you’re deliberate about your culture, you have an opportunity to create something to reflect your highest values, your best self. And so, it’s the same thing with creating your home culture.

Michael Blake: [00:29:48] A great resource that if you need kind of ideas, and I have to confess, over time, I’ve become sort of addicted to this is, is there are desk setup tours you can see on YouTube where influencers talk about their workspaces, and they have envious — somehow you can’t see a cable, and I don’t know how they do that. They must spend weeks hiding cables, right? But they have beautiful spaces that are a joy to behold. And if you can kind of replicate that, it does become an island of serenity. You can get ideas through Pinterest as well, where people kind of put up their desks setups. And you don’t have to spend $25,000 to do that, but I’ve found that it does kind of give me some ideas in terms of placement and energy and-

Shane Metcalf: [00:30:32] All of that.

Michael Blake: [00:30:32] And even colors and lighting.

Shane Metcalf: [00:30:34] We don’t need to just be like, “Well, I’m working from home, so I’m going to just plop on the couch all day.” Actually, let this be inspirational. Get some inspiration. I love that. I’m probably going to, right after this, go look up to desk stories on YouTube. And yeah, like make this fun. I know that it’s hard to even think about fun right now, but if you can insert little bits of creativity, little bit of proactive creation, it goes a long way to feeling confident, and seeing the possibility in this crisis.

Michael Blake: [00:31:16] And it’s a sense of control, right? I mean, why are people buying toilet paper? They’re grasping for control. It’s not because we go to the bathroom more often, right? It’s a desperate attempt to grab control. And I found that if you can take this opportunity, as you’ve put it, to make a workspace kind of a home with a work home within the home, I found that helpful for myself as well, even though I’ve been doing this for a while, but as an opportunity to revisit this and kind of make it my own kind of mission control, it does give me some sense that I’ve turned this into an opportunity. So, I’ve taken command, at least, a little piece of the environment that I can control.

Shane Metcalf: [00:31:59] Absolutely, absolutely.

Michael Blake: [00:32:02] So-

Shane Metcalf: [00:32:02] The other thing I think that I want to mention, as an remote worker, I think that, often, the fear is will they know that I’m actually working? Do they trust that I’m being productive? And again, I’ll just reiterate that the communication, having some systems of structure and accountability that can create some transparency around what you’re working on really goes a long way for knowing that that you’re seen for the work that you are doing, and that’s where goal tracking, and check-ins, and things like that are super valuable in this process because you don’t just leave it up to chance whether your boss thinks you’re productive. You can actually communicate and demonstrate on a regular cadence.

Michael Blake: [00:32:57] I think one of the things that we touched upon is a little bit, but I think it’s important, one of the things that I think a lot of remote workers are now adjusting to, and myself included, because this has not been that big a part of the tech world, at least, where I am is webcams and video calls. And video calls have been the thing of the future since the 1962 World’s Fair with AT&T, and we’ve resisted, we’ve resisted. And now, everybody is now having to do it to some extent, right? It’s just unavoidable. And I think people feel a little bit uncomfortable. I don’t love it ’cause I consider myself very photogenic. So, I have to I have to kind of work on that emotionally. But as important now as those video cues are, we talked about dressing the part. You don’t just kind of walk around without pants, even if you’re just going to have a neck up view because you never know if you have to get up. And that could be uncomfortable for everybody involved.

Shane Metcalf: [00:34:06] Right.

Michael Blake: [00:34:06] What are the things you have to do to adapt to a video cam culture?

Shane Metcalf: [00:34:10] Yeah. Well, listen. Look, again, opportunity. This is a good chance to get better on video. This is a chance for all to work on whatever issues, whatever thoughts and things come up when we’re like, “Oh, I don’t really want people to see my house.” You know what? Clean your house up then. It’s like-

Michael Blake: [00:34:29] Yeah, you’re right.

Shane Metcalf: [00:34:31] It’s like uplevel your home experience. Comb your hair. And another really good trick is don’t just look at the face of the person on the video. Look at the camera.

Michael Blake: [00:34:43] Yeah, that’s hard. I’m struggling to do that right now because I have an over-sized monitor. But you’re right, it’s hard to do.

Shane Metcalf: [00:34:49] Yeah, it’s really tempting to think that I’m looking at you because it feels like I’m looking at you and I’m looking in your eyes. You’re not actually. Just practice looking at the camera when you’re speaking. And that can go a long way. And so, it’s these tricks of like, how do I actually turn this into a practice where I can get better at video? For personal use, I love the app, Marco Polo for mobile, and it’s just asynchronous video messages. And I love it because it’s great to stay connected with friends, but, also, it’s really good practice for how do you get better showing up on video?

Michael Blake: [00:35:30] Huh.

Shane Metcalf: [00:35:31] We all need to get really good if work — look, we know that communication, and presentation skills, and storytelling is one of the most valuable skills in business. We’re now entering a domain where all those things are still true, but we need to do it with the added complexity and added weight of transmitting that energy through video and audio. And so, it’s all just practice. Like we’re going to come out of the other side of this all way better at talking on video.

Michael Blake: [00:36:07] Yeah. And there’s good reasons to do that too. And it’s not just because more direct communication is going to happen on that but, also, video is becoming so important on social media now. And what some people do, I know that they’ve walked into this as rank amateurs but, now, they look like multi-million dollar productions out of the home studio.

Shane Metcalf: [00:36:28] Yeah.

Michael Blake: [00:36:28] And a lot of that, I think, is because, simply, they’ve practiced. How do you become a great chef? Make a lot of lousy food.

Shane Metcalf: [00:36:34] Yeah, right. Like, one time, a coach, and I was working with her on video, they’re like, “Look, the first hundred videos you make are going to suck. No way around it. But you got to do it. You’ve just got to put in the time, and put into practice, and look at yourself, cultivate a growth mindset around it, and just go forward. We can only go forward as a community. There’s no reverse. We need to just go forward. The past was what it was. And maybe we need to grieve the world pre-coronavirus. But then, we need to move forward. We need to pull up our big boy, big girl pants, and just accept that this is the new normal for now. And we don’t know. We don’t know how long. It could be summer. It could be next year.

Michael Blake: [00:37:25] So, what do you consider as kind of the most important tech that you can have in your house to give yourself or in your home to give yourself the best work-from-work experience and opportunity?

Shane Metcalf: [00:37:41] Well, I think that a good pair of noise canceling headphones is essential. Because of the chaos of home and same with an office, being able to block the world out and move into a more focused state whether with music or not, with music, with noise canceling headphones is really good. Zoom is awesome. Zoom, Eric Yu from Zoom is probably doing pretty well. And I’m sure Zoom is doing some pretty good business right now. And I know there’s some other video chat apps out there. We love Zoom. We use it. We’ve been using it for everything for a long time. And we’re continuing to use it for everything.

Shane Metcalf: [00:38:25] Slack or some other kind of chat app is really useful. And make it fun. Just stick to the facts. And that’s one of the big dangers of remote work, is that, “Okay. Well, I’m working remotely, so I just need to only focus on work.” No, bring in some of your personality. Throw in gifs, thrown appreciations, throw in just some of your own thoughts and reflections into channels like the Watercooler. We have a lot variety of channels in Slack. We have a gratitude channel where people just go in and post what they’re grateful for that’s connected to the Monday gratitude meditations that we do. The pets of 15Five, we have. And nothing is better than going and looking at your colleagues’ dogs and cats and goats. We have some goats in the family, which is pretty cool.

Shane Metcalf: [00:39:17] Okay, Zoom, Slack. And then, it’s not just a pitch of our product, but we really do rely on our own’s platform for the more structured asynchronous communication. Getting an insight into what’s really going on with people and being able to ask questions. Like I can go in, and I can ask a question for all 200 people in my company of, what are your biggest concerns around coronavirus. In a week or in a couple of days, I get all of the answers. And as the Chief Culture Officer of the company, I get to go through, and I get to read those, and I get to respond to them, and I get to have unparalleled access to the heart parts of my people, and what’s really going on, and figuring out how to problem solve, and how to be of service, and how to contribute to people that are struggling right now.

Shane Metcalf: [00:40:11] And then, another really important piece in in this moment right now is let people know they’re appreciated. We have a tool called High Fives in our app where every week, you’re prompted to give people high fives for contributions they made to you and for things that they did. And building that culture of gratitude and appreciation is the antidote to a culture of fear and stress.

Michael Blake: [00:40:44] The other benefit to headphones too is psychological. When you wear them, people are less inclined to bother you.

Shane Metcalf: [00:40:53] Yes, absolutely. It works.

Michael Blake: [00:40:55] Even if you don’t even have them turned on, people, there’s a barrier. Some people are happy to cross a barrier, but it does sort of preclude a lot of would-be interruptions.

Shane Metcalf: [00:41:06] I wonder if that holds true for spouses. If the spouse just doesn’t see that barrier.

Michael Blake: [00:41:12] Well, not not as much. And that’s the one issue I have with noise canceling headphones at home because if she is trying to get a hold of me, and I’m not hearing her, and she has to come down two floors to come find me, the cure may be worse than the disease in that particular case.

Shane Metcalf: [00:41:28] Yeah. I’ve been having that same thought of like I’d love to put on my headphones right now. But then, I’m not going to be able to hear the baby cry while mom is trying to get some R&R. Then, I’m going to be in trouble. So, I’m going to just go with low volume air pods today.

Michael Blake: [00:41:42] Yeah, I think you have to live with that. That’s good. I know you’re a rookie father, but you’re obviously catching up quickly. So, good for you. Any other advice you could offer that we haven’t covered yet? I want to be respectful of your time. So, we only have another couple of questions ago.

Shane Metcalf: [00:41:58] Well, listen, I think that we do need to be looking at the opportunities here that, yes, this is a very serious crisis that humanity is facing, and there is opportunity to upgrade the operating system. We can build healthier cultures where we’re valued and respected as human beings, not just as resources. We can build cultures where we grant trust and freedom; where instead of saying you need to be in the office all the time, we’re saying, “Hey, actually, as long as you’re getting your work done, we’re going to loosen some of the chains around how and when you need to work. We’re going to start granting more autonomy.”

Shane Metcalf: [00:42:44] And if you look at the research on the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, one of the highest intrinsic motivators is autonomy. It’s feeling like I’m being given the autonomy to get the job done in the best way that I see fit. That doesn’t mean that we can’t get coaching, and support, and that accountability, but if we were never given autonomy, were leaving money on the table. And look, like, it’s not like there isn’t room for improvement in the global workforce. 70% disengagement. What if this is one of the things that we discover is, actually, we can start to flip that. So, it’s 70% engagement. That’s our vision of the world is that companies start to seek out building high performance by helping people become their best selves, by tapping into intrinsic motivation, by tapping into psychological safety. Yeah, I mean, that’s a whole other conversation that we need to be having right now is, how do we create high psychological safety amidst times of great uncertainty?

Michael Blake: [00:43:56] Shane, this has been great. It’s terrific to have an opportunity to have an expert of your profile here on this program. I’m sure people have a lot of questions we have not been able to cover. How can they contact you if they want some more advice? Maybe they just want to learn more about your 15Five platform.

Shane Metcalf: [00:44:16] Yeah. Well, listen, you can go to 15Five.com. That’s 15Five.com. You can also check out the resource, the medium article, where we lay out everything we know about remote working. It’s a 37-minute read. It’s not a snack, it is definitely a meal, but it really gives you a ton of our best practices for building high-performing remote teams. Follow me on LinkedIn too. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. I’m posting videos and content there pretty regularly. That’s the best place to find me.

Michael Blake: [00:44:52] Well, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s-

Shane Metcalf: [00:44:54] One other thing. We are giving away 15Five to two teams of under 50 people until, I think, some time something like mid-June or something. We want to support people in this transition. And so, we are giving the product away for free for now.

Michael Blake: [00:45:12] Okay. Well, I might check that out. Our Atlanta office has exactly 39 people. So, we’ll qualify for that.

Shane Metcalf: [00:45:18] Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Well, and I’d love to hear what you think because part of how we’re also thinking about this is, “Okay, cool. We know that our platform supports virtual teams really well. But how can we innovate? How can we listen to what is needed? And then, build products and services.” And that’s what I think everyone should really be thinking about. Don’t just operate on the same mindset that you were two months ago. Think about what has changed. How can I actually create value for this new world that we’re in?

Michael Blake: [00:45:56] So, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program, I’d like to thank Shane Metcalf, who’s Chief Culture Officer – I said Chief Operating Officer before. That was a mistake – Chief Culture Officer and Co-founder of 15Five so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in, so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy this podcast, please consider leaving a review at your favorite podcasts aggregator. It helps people find us, so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision Podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 58, How Do I Manage My Work at Home Employees? – An Interview with Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking

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manage work at home employees
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 58, How Do I Manage My Work at Home Employees? - An Interview with Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking
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manage work at home employees
Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking, Inc.,

Decision Vision Episode 58, How Do I Manage My Work at Home Employees? – An Interview with Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking

The question of “how do I manage work at home employees?” has suddenly been thrust upon them of the workplace disruption caused by the coronavirus pandemic. In this edition of “Decision Vision,” host Mike Blake explores various aspects of this issue with Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking. “Decision Vision” is presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking, Inc.

manage work at home employees
Bruce Tulgan, RainmakerThinking

Bruce Tulgan is an adviser to business leaders all over the world and a sought-after keynote speaker and seminar leader. He is the founder and CEO of RainmakerThinking, Inc., a management research and training firm, as well as RainmakerLearning, an online training resource. Since 1995, Bruce has worked with tens of thousands of leaders and managers in hundreds of organizations ranging from Aetna to Wal-Mart; from the Army to the YMCA. Bruce is the best-selling author of numerous books including Not Everyone Gets a Trophy (Revised & Updated, 2016), Bridging the Soft Skills Gap (2015), The 27 Challenges Managers Face (2014), and It’s Okay to be the Boss (Revised & Updated, 2014). Bruce lectures at the Yale Graduate School of Management, as well as other academic institutions. He has written for the New York Times, the Harvard Business Review, HR Magazine, Training Magazine, and the Huffington Post.

Since 1995, Bruce has worked with tens of thousands of leaders and managers in hundreds of organizations. In recent years, Bruce was named by Management Today as one of the few contemporary gurus to stand out as a “management guru” and he was named to the 2009 Thinkers 50 Rising Star list. On August 13, 2009, Bruce was honored to accept Toastmasters International’s most prestigious honor, the Golden Gavel. He lives in New Haven, CT with his wife Debby Applegate, Ph.D., who won the 2007 Pulitzer Prize for Biography for her book The Most Famous Man in America: The Biography of Henry Ward Beecher (Doubleday, 2006).

For more information, you can follow Bruce on Twitter or go to the RainmakerThinking website.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”

Michael Blake is Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

“Decision Vision” is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the “Decision Vision” podcast. Past episodes of “Decision Vision” can be found here. “Decision Vision” is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast series focusing on critical business decisions brought to you by Brady Ware & Company. Brady Ware is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm that helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality.

Mike Blake: [00:00:25] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the process of decision making on a different topic from the business owners’ or executives’ respective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:43] My name is Mike Blake and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols. If you like this podcast, please subscribe on your favorite podcast aggregator, and please consider leaving a review of the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:01:10] So, this is the second of a sub-series of topics regarding how to address the coronavirus crisis from the executive decision makers’ perspective. And in our last discussion, we heard from Justin and Jody Daniels, who talked about the unique challenges that we confront in terms of data security and privacy when we move en masse to a remote working environment. And today, we’re going to move to the issue of management and leadership itself from a remote management environment.

Mike Blake: [00:01:46] So, full disclosure, I’ve been working largely from my home for the last 10 years or so. So, as it turns out, I’m kind of used to this thing. This whole virus has forced me into something that I would prefer to do anyway. The one thing that I had to learn as I did this is I learned that I had—not just to work differently, but you also have to manage differently and lead differently because that physical space means something.

Mike Blake: [00:02:17] The technology that has evolved over the last 25 years that enables us to work well remotely is of a blink of an eye in comparison to the evolution of humanity that makes us want to be together in the same cave, in the same herd, in the same hunting group, in the same tribe that makes us work together, build together and grow together. And if you are somebody who is suddenly thrust into the necessity to manage teams remotely, maybe you’ve even been opposed to them, maybe you’ve been a person that really has believed in face time, and you’re a person that really thrives on that needs, that craves, that personal connection.

Mike Blake: [00:03:04] With all that’s been written to tell employees how they can transport their jobs home, I don’t think enough attention is given to the managers and leaders that suddenly have to figure out how to lead when they can’t even, in many cases, see the faces of the people that they’re leading and don’t have the same nature of contact. So, I think this is a very interesting topic. We’re going to get into the weeds here. And I hope that if you’re in the position of being a manager or leader that is thrust into this unprecedented scenario, that this topic is going to be helpful.

Mike Blake: [00:03:42] So, joining us today is a great expert on this topic. Bruce Tulgan is CEO of Rainmaker Thinking, a research, training and consulting firm in New Haven, Connecticut and Rainmaker Learning, an online training resource. He is internationally recognized as one of the foremost experts on leadership and performance management in the workplace. Bruce is the author or co-author of 20 books, including his best-selling It’s Okay to Be the Boss, The Classic Managing Generation X, that’s me; his popular, Not Everyone Gets a Trophy, How to Manage the Millennials, and The 27 Challenges Managers Face: Step-by-Step Solutions to Nearly All of Your Management Problems.

Mike Blake: [00:04:23] His newest book, The Art of Being Indispensable at Work is due for release in the summer of 2020 from Harvard Business Review Press. Bruce’s work has been the subject of thousands of news stories around the world, and he has written for The New York Times, USA Today, Training Magazine, HR magazine and the Harvard Business Review. Bruce also lectures regularly at the Yale School of Management and other business schools. Bruce holds a six-degree black belt, and I hope I’m pronouncing this correctly, in Uhuru Karate.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:04:52] Yeah, you can just say karate.

Mike Blake: [00:04:53] Okay. Making him a master in that style. Interestingly enough, his wife, Debby Applegate, won the 2007 Pulitzer Prize for her book, The Most Famous Man in America about the 19th Century Mr. Henry Ward Beecher. Bruce, thanks so much for coming on the program.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:05:11] Well, thanks so much for having me. That’s quite an introduction. Thanks for mentioning my latest book.

Mike Blake: [00:05:18] Well, you know, I have some books in me that I need to get out. And I’m so admiring of people who have managed to do that. And I think a lot of that is ruthless time management. And we’ve actually had somebody come on the podcast, be ready, talks about should I write a book, how to do it, et cetera. So, I won’t pepper you with questions that are off-topic about that. But I must express that the fact you’ve been able to create so much thoughtful content, well done to you, sir.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:05:47] Well, I’m doing my best. If anyone who wants to write a book, I always recommend, our agent has a great book called Thinking Like Your Editor. Her name is Susan Rabiner. That’s a book worth reading.

Mike Blake: [00:05:59] And I’m going to make a quick note of that, so everybody on the podcast world can just wait for a second. I’m going to write that quickly. There you go. So, before we get started, I’m curious, you’ve created so much content, you have a book that, is it coming out later this year? Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:06:21] Yeah. It’s coming out-

Mike Blake: [00:06:21] Due later this summer.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:06:22] It’s coming out in July if there’s still a world.

Mike Blake: [00:06:26] Oh, there will still be a world, whether anybody reason it or not, we’ll see, but there’ll be a world for sure. But my question is, what do you think the next book after that will be?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:06:37] Well, I’m not sure. You know, the book that’s coming out in July, it’s called The Art of Being Indispensable at Work, and it’s about how to handle the incredible pressure that everybody has been under. Everyone’s been so overcommitted, scrambling and trying to manage relationships up, down, sideways and diagonal. That’s what the book is about. And we’re always doing research on the front lines in the workplace, and we’re always trying to figure out, you know, what can we glean from the research that could be a value add for folks. So, I’m not sure what will come next.

Mike Blake: [00:07:17] Okay.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:07:17] Maybe How to Manage Remotely.

Mike Blake: [00:07:21] Maybe. I have a feeling that book would do very well.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:07:24] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:07:24] So, we’re all sort of sailing along and all of a sudden, we have run into a hurricane that nobody really—I guess some people saw it coming, but most of us sort of person on the street really didn’t see it coming. I don’t think we saw it getting to this point. How do managers themselves ground, right? Because if if you’re freaking out, if you’re losing it, it’s really hard to lead others and be a source of stability and safety unless you, yourself, ground, right? So, how do you do that when you feel yourself like you just want to throw your hands up and run in a circle screaming?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:08:02] Yeah, I think you’re—that’s very true what you’re saying. You know, I always say to people the first person you have to manage every day is yourself. And sometimes, when we’re doing leadership seminars, you know, it takes a little while for somebody in the room to have the guts to say what you just said. Because that’s the sort of acknowledgement of the human element. You know, people are feeling so out of control right now. When you’re operating in an environment of uncertainty, it’s really a feeling of a lack of control.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:08:40] And so, what I always say to folks is, remember, if you focus on what you can’t control, then you render yourself powerless by definition. So, the first thing you have to do is focus on what you can control, and that’s you, and try to help your people stay focused on what they can control, and that’s them. But I think the most important thing is to be authentic, and don’t pretend. It’s natural to be worried right now. It’s natural to be uncertain. It’s natural that people are feeling out of control. But it’s also the case that somebody has got to be in charge. In this case, that’s you, and people need you now more than ever.

Mike Blake: [00:09:27] Yeah. And there’s no playbook for this, right? There’s practically nobody alive who remembers the influenza outbreak of 1918, right? And certainly, nobody in a decision-making capacity. And, you know, I want to ask you about 2008, and even back to 2000 with the first dot-com crash. What are the parallels with then and now? And then, what’s also a difference?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:09:56] Yeah, I mean, the parallels, of course, are that people are genuinely worried about their livelihoods. If you remember the ’90s, as you and I do, maybe not everyone listening, some people are in the third grade or whatever.

Mike Blake: [00:10:09] They’ve read about it.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:10:10] Right. But back in the ’90s, you know, it was peace and prosperity, magical business models, a foosball table in every teeming space, remember? And then, all of the sudden-

Mike Blake: [00:10:22] The classy office space in Manhattan, that’s what I remember.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:10:25] Right. And then, you know, everything’s going to be great. And then, no. Boom. All over. Never mind. Crash. Everything’s terrible. And then, quite literally, crash because, you know, 9/11 followed right on that. And so, for a long time, I mean, I think 9/11 is a better parallel just in the economic crash because people were so scared. You know, an economic crash is frightening. It has a huge effect on people. You know, some people, they live paycheck-to-paycheck. Many people do. They’re worried about feeding their families. What am I going to do? And so, not to minimize the concerns about economic frailty, but I think, you know, after 9/11, people thought, “Well, gee, are terrorist attacks going to happen all over the place now?”

Mike Blake: [00:11:22] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:11:22] Well, I can remember the anthrax scare happened shortly after that.

Mike Blake: [00:11:27] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:11:27] And so, when people are genuinely afraid for their safety and the safety of their loved ones, I think, you know, it’s more like a war, but it’s like a neutron bomb, right? Because it’s just poison. And so, 2008, ’09, ’10, I mean, it seemed like, gee, maybe we’re heading for another depression. But of course, it turned out that the economic system was more resilient with the help of a government bailout. And of course, now, the government has all of a sudden found a couple of trillion dollars that didn’t—you know, there it is, yeah, here we go. No problem. Here’s a couple of trillion dollars.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:12:18] But the problem now is that it’s not just financial. I don’t think anyone’s ever seen anything like this. I mean, I don’t know what to do. And so, what I’m doing is every single day, I’m thinking, okay, how can I make myself stronger? How can I make my mind stronger? How can I make my body stronger? How can I make my spirit stronger? And then, what can I do to add value for someone else? And first and foremost, what can I do to add value for my family?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:12:54] Second, what can I do to add value for my team, the people who are part of my business who rely on me? And then, what can I do to add value for my clients who rely on me for advice? And, you know, every day, that’s what I’m trying to do. I’m just trying to focus on what I can control and what I’m trying to help my team focus on what they can control. And that’s the advice I’m giving to my clients is, what is not going to change your mission and your values? And what can you control today? You set yourself up for success and set your people up for success. And I don’t know what else we can do.

Mike Blake: [00:13:49] I think you’re right. I think that the ’01, September 11th is actually a more apt analogy because there’s an ambient fear. There’s an environment around that is not just economic, and at least there for a week, everybody, everything sort of shut down, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:14:10] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:14:10] And we had to—everything was outside of our comfort zone. It wasn’t just being unemployed. It was everything, how to keep yourself safe, right? And now, we’re outside of our comfort zone because we’re probably having to take care of ourselves medically in a way that we might not necessarily do. In my case, I have a nine-year old, so I have to learn how to home-school on the fly, and his teachers need to learn how to home-teach on the fly. And I have team members that have home-schooling obligations now, and I’m trying to balance that.

Mike Blake: [00:14:48] And you’re right. I think there is that difference, and at least one way I respond to it is I try to keep a wave of empathy up as much as I can. I don’t know if that’s the right thing. I’m curious if you agree with that, but everybody right now is frazzled, and we’re only one week into this in most states. If this continues through Easter or later, I’m not sure that I agree this is going to be over by Easter. People are going to get frazzled and frayed and really stretched to their limits and they’re going to rely on us more than ever to be that rock of stability.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:15:26] Yeah. I mean, I’m glad you used the term empathy. I think sympathy and empathy are both—you know, I’m somebody who often tells business leaders, look, it’s not your job to be somebody’s pastor, their best friend, their therapist, and you’re not qualified to do that. But wow, this is really bringing the human element to the fore in a way that is different. When I’m out, I was out yesterday running in the neighborhood. And, you know, it’s so odd.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:16:05] You see people out there, they cross the street, you know, and if they don’t, then you cross the street or I cross the street like you don’t—you know, when you look at them and you sort of nod and smile, and then nobody takes offense, it’s just sort of, yeah, wow, you’re out here being a human being and we better steer clear of each other, and it’s just so peculiar. So, I think, you know, I say that because I was trying to think of my own moments of empathy in the last 24 hours, and I had that gut feeling of yeah, of course, you’re crossing the street because you don’t want to be infected by it.

Mike Blake: [00:16:49] Or they don’t want to infect you.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:16:51] Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:16:54] So, now, this environment as a manager and as a leader particularly remotely, does that force us to kind of change our priorities, right? I think you’re an advocate of something called a stop, start and continue list, which I think is a priority set.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:17:12] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:17:12] How do you reformulate that, you know, now that the martini’s been totally shaken?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:17:18] Yeah. I mean, well, one of the things that I’ve been doing is looking at our research on organizations where uncertainty is a regular part of their day-to-day routine. So, we may be facing uncertainty today in a way on a wholesale level that none of us are accustomed to. But there are a lot of people who, what they do for a living is they manage uncertainty. And so, the sort of pillars are every day, you say, all right, what are our anchors? What’s never going to change as far as we can tell?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:17:52] And then, what’s changing right now? And how do we adapt? And the way we adapt in the moment is, what are we going to stop doing? What are we going to start doing? What are we going to continue? And it’s just a very quick reset in terms of your daily execution priorities. And, you know, in downtime, what organizations do and what people do who have to be accustomed to uncertainty, in downtime, what they do is they try to anticipate contingencies and prepare for them and prepare their people for them and even scrimmage or drill on those contingencies.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:18:37] But what most uncertainty masters know is that they’re going to run into things they didn’t anticipate. So then, they extrapolate from that stuff. But, you know, it’s one part anticipate and prepare. And it’s one part adjust in the moment. And adjust in the moment, it’s like today, what are we going to stop doing today? What are we going to start doing? What do we need to continue? And how do we proceed on that?

Mike Blake: [00:19:13] And part of that adjustment, too, is it also kind of understanding part of that empathy, I guess, but also understanding that the employees are undergoing massive adjustments, too? Learning how to work—you know not everyone wants to work from home. Not everybody is in a great environment to do that. You may have an employee that is great at work, but then they go home and they’re a young married couple with a kid in a one-bedroom apartment, and then trying to work in that environment, right? I mean, you can imagine how emotionally and intellectually challenging that is. I think we kind of have to make leeway and allowances for that, too, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:19:54] My advice there is a blanket fort.

Mike Blake: [00:19:58] For you or the kid?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:19:59] Well, yes. But, you know, I often joke that, you know, people until recently, they want to work from home because the dog gets lonely at home and they want to be there with the dog or, you know, the kid or whatever it is, they want to be able to do their laundry. You know, some people, they’re accustomed to having a routine for working at home. But what I always tell managers is yeah, you need to manage yourself. You need to figure out what your routine is going to be, and then try to talk through with your people, “Hey, what’s your routine going to be?” And you have to be a little bit careful because, you know, some people will be—they think it’s a snow day.

Mike Blake: [00:20:51] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:20:52] So, we’re just on hold. And so, you have to talk him through that. No, we’ve got to stay focused. We’ve got to get stuff done every day. And it may be very different stuff than what we’ve been getting done in the past. Some of it’s going to continue. There may be new stuff we have to do. I mean, I’m in the business of going around to auditoriums packed full of people and speaking from a stage. I saw hot air to rooms full of people. You know, how’d you like to be in that business, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:21:28] So, you know, okay, we need to get really good at doing webinars, I guess. And so, that’s something we’re going to start doing. What am I going to stop doing? Going to the airport, at least for a while. What am I going to continue doing? Interviewing people, studying the data, trying to glean insights and trying to find good ways to share those insights with our clients. So, everybody, that formula is going to be different for everybody.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:21:58] But I think one of the common denominators that we’re all grappling with is doing this in our shelter in place. And as you say, some people, their shelter in place is more amenable or less amenable to work. You know, look, even—the reality is a lot of people in the workplace, they get interrupted all day long. A lot of people in the workplace, they don’t have a moment for focused execution. I mean, some people come in at 5:00 a.m. or they stay into the night or they say, “When I go home, it’s the only time I get stuff done.”

Mike Blake: [00:22:32] Right.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:22:35] So, whether you’re in the workplace or at home, you need to set yourself up for success. That means every day, you need to choose your execution priorities. It means you need to make time for structured communication. Who do I need to talk with today? It means you need to have good conversations and document those conversations. And you need to make time for focused execution, for getting stuff done. And that’s true whether you’re a leader, manager, supervisor or whether you’re an individual contributor.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:23:11] But if you’re a leader, manager, supervisor, then other people are looking to you to make decisions. Other people are looking to you to help set priorities. Other people are looking to you to solve the resource needs. Other people are looking to you to problem-solve. Other people are looking to you for guidance and direction and support. So, you know, I think leadership matters. And I think it’s a contact sport. And boy, it just got a lot harder because the only points of contact now we’re going to be through Facetime or email or telephone.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:23:56] But, you know, as you say, empathy, you’ve got to put yourself in the position of the people who are counting on you and try to ask them, “Hey, you know, do you have the space where you can work? Do you have a routine? How are you going to set your hours?” You’ve got to give people some real flexibility. “When are you going to do your job? How are you going to do your job? You know, what challenges are you facing? What do you need from me?

Mike Blake: [00:24:27] Yeah. And I think that last point, you know, I think, resonates because that puts you in a position of being a resource, which in my view, philosophically, is the role of a leader is to be a resource. And in that vein being a resource, you touched upon this a little bit, but I do want to hit this, some people are going to handle this environment better than others. Some people are going to have a really hard time simply being cooped up. Some people are going to have a hard time being cooped up with their family. Some people are going to have a hard time just simply having the background noise and a running tally saying, “Five more people got infected, one more person died”, right? And so-

Bruce Tulgan: [00:25:13] You know, that’s so true.

Mike Blake: [00:25:16] It’s like-

Bruce Tulgan: [00:25:16] That last part-

Mike Blake: [00:25:17] … living in a horror movie, isn’t it?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:25:19] Right. It’s like a movie.

Mike Blake: [00:25:22] Except there isn’t some closet that you know that you shouldn’t open. That’s the problem, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:25:29] Yes.

Mike Blake: [00:25:29] So, some people are going to handle that better than others. And when people are going to handle it as well, it doesn’t make them bad, that just makes them human beings. Not everybody was born to serve in a nuclear submarine and be in a two-year mission under the Arctic Circle for a while, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:25:43] That’s for sure.

Mike Blake: [00:25:44] But in spite of the fact that, you know, we’re not meant to be their advisers, their best friends, their pastors or counselors, we are going to have more contact probably with our teammates and most of the outside world well. And so, does that give us as leaders and as managers a special responsibility to kind of be on the lookout for signs that somebody may be weathering the storm not as well as others? And if so, is there something that we can do to inquire and offer a hand without being intrusive? Does that question make any sense at all?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:26:21] It does. I mean, look, this is true. If the person’s in the cubicle next to you, you look at somebody and they look tired or they look bad or they look scared or they look, you know—and you have to want this fine line of being human and being prepared to make accommodations for people if they need them, but also recognizing that, you know, some stuff is none of your business, and you’re not qualified to deal with that. I mean, look, one of the things I say to business leaders is, sure, if you can see that somebody is struggling personally, the question you have to ask yourself is, do you have resources to make available to that person? Now, sometimes, you are that person’s friend. My view is if you’re somebody’s boss, and you’re also that person’s friend, that’s a complication that you have to navigate.

Mike Blake: [00:27:18] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:27:18] And so, maybe what you say is, “Hey, after work, let’s go out for a soda.” Right now, it’s after work, “Let me call you and we’ll have sodas in our remote locations and talk about it”, or something. But somehow, to try to recognize that it’s a different role. Being your friend is a different role than being your boss, being your leader, your manager, your supervisor. And I agree with you. Being a resource is a big part of it.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:27:49] Look, I mean, what a lot of managers are worried about right now is not necessarily the emotional well-being of their people. It’s gee, they’re at home, well, how do I know they’re working? And that’s the other side of the equation. It’s like the policing part. And I always say to leaders, look, you know, if somebody’s sitting in a desk during certain hours where you can see them, that’s place and time.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:28:18] That’s actually a lazy measure of performance, that if you’re a good leader, manager, supervisor, you shouldn’t drill them down anyway, and, you know, figuring out if they know what to do, if they know how to do it, if they’re producing, if they’re getting stuff done at a good rate of productivity, if they have good quality, you know. And so, if you’re in a remote location, you can’t see the body in a chair during certain hours.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:28:56] You know, maybe that’s going to help you get to be a better manager. And what you need to do is try to help people use their work time to succeed. So, yes, some people are going to be going stir crazy. Some people are going to be feeling scared. Some people are going to be distracted. Help them stay focused on doing one concrete thing at a time. And the good news is, you know, you don’t need to be a police, you don’t need to be policing people.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:29:28] Helping them be effective and get stuff done and stay productive and keep adding value is healthy. And it is a much more appropriate role for a manager. Sometimes, the best thing you can do if somebody is going stir crazy at home or if they’re having a hard time being effective at home is help them be more effective at home, help them be more effective and get more done, then they’ll have something to feel good about today.

Mike Blake: [00:29:57] You bring up a couple of interesting points that I want to go back and hit on because I think they’re so important and I think they’re so insightful. One, I do think there is an opportunity here for all of us to become better managers. And you’re right, this seeing a butt in the cubicle is not a measure of value unless the value that you have is to be able to survey your empire, right? If that’s your source of value, then I guess yeah, I see that, right? But if you haven’t been able to measure productivity already, then this is a great opportunity to force you. Like just in the old days, you and I are—I won’t say you. I’m old enough, and I remember taking typing classes in high school.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:30:44] I did. I did. I did.

Mike Blake: [00:30:46] And they would give you a little piece of cardboard over the keyboard so you couldn’t actually see your fingers, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:30:51] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:30:51] And I knew if I was type on the right thing because I saw it on the piece of paper.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:30:55] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:30:55] It’s on a real typewriter, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:30:57] Exactly.

Mike Blake: [00:30:58] That’s the way that we have to manage now. And I think that’s actually a good thing. That’s going to force us to develop that muscle.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:31:10] Yeah, that’s huge. I mean, look, I say to managers all the time when they said, “Oh, well, you know, people want to work from home” or, you know, they’re worried about people who want flexibility, right?

Mike Blake: [00:31:22] Right.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:31:22] Until a few weeks ago, this was, people want flexibility and managers were worried that if they’re not in a certain chair during certain hours, that they couldn’t manage them. And one of things I like to do with a group of managers is say, “Okay, show a hand. What’s more valuable to you? Somebody who gets a whole bunch of work done very well, very fast with good quality and a good attitude or somebody who’s in a certain chair during certain hours?”, right?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:31:54] And nobody votes for a body in a chair during certain hours, right? Everybody votes for somebody who gets a lot of work done and good quality. But then, if you actually followed them around, they see the empty chair and they say, “Oh, where’s that person? Where’s that person?” So, this is a chance to start managing results, to start managing concrete actions, to start zeroing in on what people are doing and how they’re doing it, more than where and when.

Mike Blake: [00:32:31] So, you know, one of the keys that we’ve kind of touched upon here is the importance now of being intentional about your communication because communication is no longer going to happen organically. You’re not going to bump into somebody on video chat most likely.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:32:47] Right.

Mike Blake: [00:32:47] So, you’ve written about it and talked about another venue, as I know, about over-communicating and over-communicating with prepositions up, down, sideways and diagonal. What does that mean?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:33:00] Well, look, the way most people communicate in the workplace is they touch base, has everything going, everything on track, any problems I should know about? They interrupt each other all day long. They see each other on email. They’re in meetings every once in a while. And then, what happens is problems hide below the radar, and then eventually, you know, sometimes, they blow up, and then it’s all hands on deck, firefighting.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:33:23] And then, we go back to touching base, interrupting, and then seeing each other in meetings or on e-mail. And, you know, it’s unstructured, unsubstantiated communication is the rule for most people. And what we have found is that when you communicate with much greater structure and substance, things go better. So, when I say up, I mean, the first person you got to talk to is your boss. You got to get aligned. You’ve got to make sure that you know what’s changing today, what’s staying the same.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:34:02] I’ve got too much to do, not enough time. What should I back-burner? I need decisions made. I need priorities clarified. I want to show you what I’m going to do and how I’m going to do it. So, you know, align up. Then, second is down. Anybody who reports to you for any period of time, you owe it to them to give them some time to help them get aligned, to help them make sure they know what priorities should come first, second and third today, and what should go on the back burner if they need decisions made, if they need resource planning, if they need problem solving. And then, sideways and diagonal.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:34:46] So many relationships now are outside that chain of command. It’s not just your boss. It’s not just the people who report to you, but it’s your sideways colleagues. It’s somebody you need something from, but they don’t report to you, you don’t report to them. You need something from them, but they don’t report to you. So, what I tell people is every single day, you need to think about not just your schedule, not just your to-do list, but also see your people list. Who do you need to talk to today? And plan the conversation. What do you need to cover in that conversation? And then, give them a heads up. Nobody’s at their best when they’re being interrupted anyway, right?

Mike Blake: [00:35:38] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:35:38] So, there’s so much communication that happens in the ordinary workplace, that’s what I call, you know, management by interruption. We interrupt each other all day long. So, you have to pull yourself out of what you’re doing, try to tune into the interrupter. What you really want to do is get back to what you were doing in the first place. So, a much better way is to plan and prepare your communication. So, every single day, you know, start with, okay, what’s my schedule today? What do I need to get done today? And who do I need to talk with? And by the way, nine out of 10 times, if you talk to those people, you’re going to make adjustments in your schedule and your to-do list.

Mike Blake: [00:36:23] So, another disruption that I think doesn’t get talked about enough is the fact that, you know, we try to create offices that people want to be in, at least many companies do. Certainly, we do at ours at Brady Ware, and that’s something I personally pay a lot of attention to. And they could be things as rudimentary as free Coke Zeros and snacks, that could be, you know, high quality office shares, ergonomic supplies, whatever it happens to be. And now, those things are gone, right? And employees and team members are used to having those kind of creature comforts. You know, is there anything realistic that we, as leaders, can do or think about doing, if not to replicate those things, maybe to replace them with something else?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:37:26] You know, I’m not somebody who focuses as much on the ping pong table, the pool table, I do think what you want to do is create an environment where people have what they need, where people are comfortable, where people want to be at work, where people can make it their own space. And people really do care about work space. I mean, when people are at home, I mean, look, maybe we should be sending people rolls of toilet paper, you know.

Mike Blake: [00:38:06] That’s a new bonus program.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:38:07] Yeah. Right, the new bonus program. And I think that what people are going to be struggling with is staying focused and effective and knowing what to get done today and what to back-burner and how to get their hands on the information they need, how to get their hands on the resources they need to get their work done. And as a leader, manager, supervisor, I think that’s got to come first. I think if you have the resources to provide, create your comforts, I think, okay, that’s good. What most people care about the most is being able to get their work done and avoid unnecessary problems, have the resources they need to get their work done, so they can earn what they need to take care of their family. I think the second thing that people really care about is having more control over their own schedule.

Mike Blake: [00:39:18] Yeah.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:39:18] And now, I think, you know, it’s the great irony. People are going to have so much control over their own schedule that they’re going to need help staying focused and productive.

Mike Blake: [00:39:33] This reminds me of a Simpson cartoon, and I haven’t watched that show in forever. But I remember one where Homer Simpson somehow is sent into space. Don’t ask me-

Bruce Tulgan: [00:39:44] Sure, of course. Of course.

Mike Blake: [00:39:46] Perfectly plausible, right? And as would be expected, he messed up the space shuttle and he broke some sort of ant farm experiment and the ant start going crazy and they start doing their whatever language it is that ants speak. And, you know, as they’re floating in space, the subtitle says, “Freedom, horrible, horrible freedom”, right? It kind of reminds me of that, right? When you’re all of a sudden confronted with this, you don’t realize that it is a burden to cope with that and kind of wrestle the fire hose to the ground, isn’t it?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:40:20] Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve learned over the years, and it’s something that when people are having a hard time managing their time, a tool that we recommend using is a simple time log, which is just keeping track of your time, your activity and your time, you know, and you can do it as thoroughly or as—you can do it very thoroughly. So, every activity you start and stop, time start activity, time stop.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:40:51] And, you know, it’s probably a good time to start keeping a time log so that you have a reality check. And after a couple of days, take a look and see how you’re spending your time. It’s a way to start to see where are you wasting time? When are you getting stuff done? What’s wasting your time? What’s distracting you? So, if you’re having a hard time with all the freedom, it’s a very simple tool. Just a piece of paper and a pencil is all you need.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:41:34] When you wake up, write what time you wake up and just start writing down what you do. It’s an incredible reality check for most people. And that’s true in the best of times. And maybe during these times, it’s a good way to optimize this freedom and learn a little bit about yourself and see where your strengths and weaknesses are when it comes to time management.

Mike Blake: [00:42:02] So, I want to turn the conversation around a little bit. And we’re recording a podcast on Friday that’s going to talk about best practices from the employee’s perspective. But I think one thing that gets overlooked is that leaders need care and feeding as well, right? As leaders, and you don’t have to be a narcissist to think this way, but the feedback, the benefit that you receive from the people that you lead is what we take our cues from that motivates us to take on the responsibility of leadership.

Mike Blake: [00:42:38] And it’s not easy. And so, I guess my question is this, you know, to those of us, maybe some of us are at the top of the food chain, so it doesn’t apply, but others of us, myself included, I do have other people to whom I report, even if they are very senior people, what do leaders need in terms of care and feeding as well to make them? And how can employees kind of support leaders to make them feel empowered and effective?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:43:12] Well, I mean, I guess it depends on the leader. If you happen to report to a narcissistic demagogue and you should tell them how great they are all the time, I guess. But assuming that’s not your particular burden, then what my advice to people is help your boss manage you. You know, do what you can to create structured dialogues so that it’s not all on manager, the leader, to create that structured dialogue.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:43:46] Maybe suggest a time, maybe prepare an advance, send a note to your leader, manager, supervisor 24 or 12 or six hours before the conversation and say, “Here’s some decisions I need made. Here’s some problems I need help solving. Here are some resources. I need some advice about how to get my hands on. Here are competing priorities and my available time. I need help setting these priorities. Here’s my project that I’m working on.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:44:20] And here’s my preliminary plan. Could you take a look? Here is a recurring task or responsibility. And here’s my standard operating procedure usually, but here’s a change I think I’m going to make.” I think that’s one way. I think if you are the leader, manager, supervisor who has a hard time getting feedback, then you can make it clear you want that feedback. If you have a leader, manager, supervisor who wants your feedback, then be candid. And I guess, you know, once in a while, you can inquire about their well-being and tell them how great they are.

Mike Blake: [00:45:06] Or not. That’s fine. Yeah, but, you know-.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:45:08] Or not.

Mike Blake: [00:45:08] Yeah. And you’re right. You’re right. Everyone is different. But, you know, I do think that at least for some people, you’re in a leadership position because you want to lead people. And the benefit of leading people when you have this barrier, you know, that connection is stressed. And I think your suggestions are good ones. You know, the employee doesn’t have an obligation to do that really necessarily, but I do think that, you know, if the employee has a desire to make that relationship work, I think that’s good advice to facilitate that.

Mike Blake: [00:45:53] We’re running out of time, but we have time for a couple more questions. And one we touched upon a little bit, but I want to circle back and hit explicitly is there are some good things that can come out of this whole thing, right? I mean, number one, you know, we talked about as developing different management skills and talents is a good thing that I think can and will come out of this. Can you think of any other positives from a leadership development perspective that may come out of this whole thing?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:46:28] Yeah, I mean, look, so what should happen in management relationship is you should be engaged in regular structured dialogue with your people, whether they’re sitting next to you or whether they are working from a remote location. So, putting more structure and substance into your ongoing conversation, that’s step one. Step two, make sure that everybody who works for you understands the broad performance standards for their basic tasks and responsibilities.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:47:03] This is a good time to check in on broad performance standards. And even though they may be changing, check in, make sure people understand what they’re supposed to be doing, how they’re supposed to be doing it. Zero in on priorities. Make sure that people understand expectations. Expectations are different from broad performance standards because broad performance standards are from now on, right?

Mike Blake: [00:47:29] Right.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:47:29] Expectations are today, tomorrow, this week. Get better at helping people make plans. Get better at helping people set goals and spell out guidelines and parameters for their goals. Get better at helping people schedule their concrete actions and time chunks. You know, a time motion study goes way back to Frederick Taylor, but, you know, help people understand exactly how do you do that and how long does it take you to do that?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:48:04] Well, gee, if it takes you six minutes to do that, shouldn’t you be able to do that 10 times in an hour or, well, nine times with a six-minute break? And okay. Well, would you be able to do that 72 times in a day? Oh, well, okay, maybe 60, giving yourself a few deep breaths. And, you know, this is a time when you can get better at checking working progress. It’s a time when you can get better at looking at tangible results and evaluating quality.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:48:44] This is a time when you and your direct reports can get better at helping them monitor their own work. You know, one of the things that I’ve learned over the years is that, you know, in the workplace, most managers only start keeping score for people. They only start really documenting performance once things start going wrong. Well, maybe we should get better at keeping score for people when things are going average and when things are going well.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:49:17] And not only that, but let’s start helping people keep score for themselves, keep better track of what you’re doing and how you’re doing it. Time log is one way. A checklist is another way. A plan is another way. Take note of the tangible results you’re creating and get better at managing yourself and your time. I think it’s also a time when—you know, you started earlier on in the conversation talking about empathy.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:49:51] And so, maybe this is a time where we can—maybe we need to bookmark this and remember that we’re all human and that the human element is central. And maybe it’s a time where we’re all going to get more tuned in to the need to serve and to add value and to care of ourselves and take care of each other. Maybe some people are going to come out stronger. Let’s hope.

Mike Blake: [00:50:29] So, I’m going to ask you a patently unfair question, but I think that you can handle it. That patently unfair question is at some point, this is going to end, and we’re going to return back to something. Maybe it’s normal, maybe it’s not. Do you think when we go back to what we looked like in terms of the workplace and organizational operation, say, as of January 1st, are they going to look like the same thing or do you think there are going to be some things that are a little different going forward?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:51:07] You know, I’m not a futurist and I’m very tied to data, so what’s the data we’re seeing?

Mike Blake: [00:51:19] Right.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:51:19] And I don’t project out much from the data we’re seeing. I can tell you, one of my best friends is an anthropologist. And actually, did you say you’re in Atlanta?

Mike Blake: [00:51:30] Yes.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:51:32] He teaches at Agnes Scott.

Mike Blake: [00:51:35] Okay, few miles from where I live, three miles from where I live.

Bruce Tulgan: [00:51:38] And he’s one of my best friends for many, many years. And he was saying, you know, just as an anthropologist, what’s the likelihood that after all this, people are going to want to go back to all of the norms? It may be that this has lasting change on people’s willingness to congregate. What I don’t think is that we can predict how this is going to change us. I do think we can predict we’re not going to go back to the way things were. I think there are going to be big changes.

Mike Blake: [00:52:21] I think that’s a fair answer. So, Bruce, this is a bigger topic than we can probably fairly address in an hour, but I need to be respectful, of course, of your time. How can people contact you for more information?

Bruce Tulgan: [00:52:37] Rainmakerthinking.com is the best way to contact us. I’m on Twitter @brucetulgan. My email address is brucet@rainmakerthinking.com. I answer a lot of emails every day. And one thing I can tell you in terms of my values and my mission, my mission is to help leaders, managers and supervisors provide guidance, direction, support and coaching for their people. And that’s not going to change. And I want to help leaders stay in dialogue and provide that support that people need. And my two monitors are structure and substance, create structured dialogue with your people. And if I can help in any way, you send me an email, I promise I’ll respond, and I type faster than I talk.

Mike Blake: [00:53:27] All right. So, that’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Bruce Tulgan of Rainmaker Institute so much for joining us and sharing his expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week, so please tune in so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcasts, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision podcast.

Decision Vision Episode 57, How Do I Secure Data for Work at Home Employees? – An Interview with Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson, and Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors

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How Do I Secure Data for Work at Home Employees?
Decision Vision
Decision Vision Episode 57, How Do I Secure Data for Work at Home Employees? - An Interview with Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson, and Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors
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How Do I Secure Data for Work at Home Employees?

Decision Vision Episode 57, How Do I Secure Data for Work at Home Employees? – An Interview with Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson, and Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors

Millions of employees are now working at home because of coronavirus-related “shelter in place” directives, creating a data security problem for many employers. Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson, and Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors, address this problem in the latest edition of “Decision Vision.” This series is hosted by Mike Blake and presented by Brady Ware & Company.

Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson

how do i secure data for work at home employees
Justin Daniels

Justin Daniels, Baker Donelson, provides corporate advice to growth-oriented and middle market domestic and international businesses. He is also a cybersecurity thought leader who believes cybersecurity is a strategic business enterprise risk.

His corporate practice consists of representing businesses and business owners in all aspects of their growth cycle, from structuring new ventures, raising capital and advising on acquisitions and divestitures to reviewing and negotiating key vendor, franchise, employment and customer contracts.

Justin specifically advises on cyber business and legal issues that impact every aspect of a company from mergers and acquisitions, investment capital transactions and related due diligence matters, vendor and customer contracts and cyber insurance. He runs tabletop exercises to help companies practice and identity opportunities to improve their cyber incident response plan. He also has a strong background in blockchain technology as he represents one of the largest cryptocurrency mining facilities in the country. He has particular experience in helping clients navigate how the blockchain might apply to a specific use case and the potential business and legal issues arising from it.

Justin has taken a leadership role in Georgia’s cybersecurity industry. In 2017, he founded and led the inaugural Atlanta Cyber Week, where multiple organizations held 11 events that attracted more than 1,000 attendees. Atlanta Cyber Week created business opportunities between growth cyber companies and Atlanta’s middle market and Fortune 1,000 customer base while also burnishing the reputation of Atlanta’s regional cybersecurity ecosystem. At the end of Atlanta Cyber Week 2017, he gave a Ted Talk entitled “Why You Hold the Key to Cybersecurity.” In March 2015, he traveled with Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed and a 36-member delegation on a Georgia cybersecurity mission to the state of Israel to promote the Atlanta regional cybersecurity ecosystem. He has also given presentations about Atlanta’s cybersecurity ecosystem and U.S. privacy laws as part of his travels to London and Manchester surrounding the InfoSec cybersecurity conference in 2016 and 2017.

You can connect with Justin on LinkedIn, or email him directly.

Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors

how do I secure data for work at home employees
Jodi Daniels

Jodi Daniels is the Founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors. She is a Certified Informational Privacy Professional (CIPP/US) with more than 20 years of experience helping a range of businesses from solopreneurs to multi-national companies in privacy, marketing, strategy, and finance roles. During her corporate career, she proved a valuable asset to companies like Deloitte, The Home Depot, Cox Enterprises, Bank of America where she most recently served as the privacy partner for Digital Banking and Digital Marketing. Ms. Daniels started her privacy career by creating the comprehensive privacy program at Cox Automotive. She launched an online advertising network for Autotrader and Kelley Blue Book.

Since launching in 2017, Red Clover Advisors has helped hundreds of companies create privacy programs, achieve GDPR, CCPA, and US privacy law compliance, and establish a secure online data strategy their customers can count on. Jodi makes privacy easy to understand by breaking it down into measurable steps using plain language her clients can relate to. She passionately supports the idea that privacy is more than just compliance and concern over fines. It’s a human right we all deserve. She has made it her mission to help businesses build trust and transparency with this core value at its foundation.

Jodi holds a Masters of Business Administration and a Bachelor of Business Administration with a concentration in Accounting from Emory University’s Goizueta Business School. She lives in Atlanta, GA with her husband, two little girls, and a big fluffy dog named Basil.

You can connect with Jodi on LinkedIn, or email her directly.

Michael Blake, Brady Ware & Company

Mike Blake, Host of “Decision Vision”

Michael Blake is Host of the “Decision Vision” podcast series and a Director of Brady Ware & Company. Mike specializes in the valuation of intellectual property-driven firms, such as software firms, aerospace firms and professional services firms, most frequently in the capacity as a transaction advisor, helping clients obtain great outcomes from complex transaction opportunities. He is also a specialist in the appraisal of intellectual properties as stand-alone assets, such as software, trade secrets, and patents.

Mike has been a full-time business appraiser for 13 years with public accounting firms, boutique business appraisal firms, and an owner of his own firm. Prior to that, he spent 8 years in venture capital and investment banking, including transactions in the U.S., Israel, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.

Brady Ware & Company

Brady Ware & Company is a regional full-service accounting and advisory firm which helps businesses and entrepreneurs make visions a reality. Brady Ware services clients nationally from its offices in Alpharetta, GA; Columbus and Dayton, OH; and Richmond, IN. The firm is growth minded, committed to the regions in which they operate, and most importantly, they make significant investments in their people and service offerings to meet the changing financial needs of those they are privileged to serve. The firm is dedicated to providing results that make a difference for its clients.

Decision Vision Podcast Series

“Decision Vision” is a podcast covering topics and issues facing small business owners and connecting them with solutions from leading experts. This series is presented by Brady Ware & Company. If you are a decision maker for a small business, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at decisionvision@bradyware.com and make sure to listen to every Thursday to the “Decision Vision” podcast. Past episodes of “Decision Vision” can be found here. “Decision Vision” is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Visit Brady Ware & Company on social media:

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/brady-ware/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradywareCPAs/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BradyWare

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradywarecompany/

Show Transcript

Mike Blake: [00:00:00] Welcome to Decision Vision, a podcast giving you, the listener, clear vision to make great decisions. In each episode, we discuss the processes of decision making on a different topic from a business owner’s or executive’s perspective. We aren’t necessarily telling you what to do, but we can put you in a position to make an informed decision on your own and understand when you might need help along the way.

Mike Blake: [00:00:19] My name is Mike Blake, and I’m your host for today’s program. I’m a Director at Brady Ware & Company, a full-service accounting firm based in Dayton, Ohio, with offices in Dayton; Columbus, Ohio; Richmond, Indiana; and Alpharetta, Georgia. Brady Ware is sponsoring this podcast, which is being recorded in Atlanta per social distancing protocols. If you like this podcast, please subscribe to your favorite podcast aggregator and please consider leaving or review the podcast as well.

Mike Blake: [00:00:44] This is a first in a sub-series of topics regarding how to address the coronavirus crisis. And I think we’re gonna have a few of these podcasts that we’re going to record before everything is said and done. But this is our initial attempt at this, and we’ll see how it goes. But I think that it should go pretty well. And specifically, we’re going to talk about data security.

Mike Blake: [00:01:07] Now, in episode 15, we had Charles Hoff come on to talk generally about data security practices and procedures. But now, we are faced with an unprecedented data security challenge. We’ve all been basically told to take our balls, and go home, and don’t come back until somebody else gives us the all clear. Now, for a lot of us, like myself, this is a good thing. It means that we don’t have to not be working at all. We can work from home, but it does present some novel challenges that, frankly, I don’t think a lot of us ever thought we would ever wind up having to face – certainly not on the scale. And as we always do for our podcasts, I bring in the best experts that I can find for this because I don’t know anything about this. All I know is to ask a few questions and we’ll let the experts talk.

Mike Blake: [00:01:59] So, joining us today are Justin and Jodi Daniels. Justin is a partner with Baker Donelson, which is the 64th largest firm in the US, giving their clients access to a team of more than 700 attorneys and public policy advisors, representing more than 30 practice areas, all seamlessly connected across 21 offices to serve virtually any legal and policy needs. Baker Donelson provides their clients a global network of global counsel and other professionals and to help their clients take advantage of global opportunities in more than 90 countries spanning six continents.

Mike Blake: [00:02:30] Justin’s corporate practice consists of representing middle-market and emerging growth businesses and business owners in all aspects of their growth cycle from structuring new ventures, raising capital, and advising on acquisitions and divestitures, to reviewing and negotiating key vendor franchise employment and customer contracts. Justin specifically advises businesses on cyber business and legal issues that pertain to mergers and acquisitions, investment capital transactions, and related due diligence matters, vendor customer contracts, information security plans, and cyber insurance. His representation of one of the largest crypto mining facilities in the country has provided him with a strong background in blockchain technology. This experience has been especially relevant in helping clients navigate how the blockchain might apply to a specific use case and the potential business and legal issues arising from it. He is also co-founder of Baker Donelson’s Cybersecurity Accelerator.

Mike Blake: [00:03:22] Jodi Daniels as founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors. Since launching in 2017, Red Clover Advisors has helped hundreds of companies create privacy programs, achieve GDPR, CCPA, and US privacy law compliance -if you want to know what those are, again, go back and listen to Episode 15 – and establish a secure online data strategy their customers can count on. Jodi makes privacy easy to understand by breaking it down into measurable steps using plain language her clients can relate to. She passionately supports the idea that privacy is more than just compliance and concern over fines, it’s a human right we all deserve. She’s made it her mission to help businesses build trust and transparency with this core value at its foundation.

Mike Blake: [00:04:05] Jodi is a certified informational privacy professional with more than 20 years of experience, helping a range of businesses from solopreneurs to multinational companies in privacy, marketing, strategy and finance roles. During her corporate career, she proved a valuable asset to companies like Deloitte, the Home Depot, Cox Enterprises, Bank of America, where she most recently served as a privacy partner for digital banking and digital marketing. Ms. Daniels studied her privacy career by training at the Comprehensive Privacy Program with Cox Automotive. She launched an online advertising network for Auto Trader and Bluebook, Justin and Jodi Daniels, welcome to the program.

Jodi Daniels: [00:04:43] Hi. I’m glad to be here.

Mike Blake: [00:04:45] So, with all that said, you guys know a thing or two, you know a thing or two about security. Before we get started, I just kind of want to dive in to kind of a high level. When everything started hitting the fan about two weeks ago, what were your first thoughts in terms of how this is going to impact and really just sort of change the game in terms of business, privacy, and data security?

Justin Daniels: [00:05:14] So, thanks, Mike. Let me take that one. So, the biggest thing that we identified is pretty much overnight, companies, as you said, told their workforce, “Take your ball, and go home, and work remotely.” So, now, when you take a whole lot of companies who may not have had a significant part of their workforce work remotely and introduce them into this whole new concept of working remotely, a lot of the security challenges that companies were struggling to deal with, just in the workplace, now take on an added focus now that you’ve got all these people who are unfamiliar working at home, who now have to go and work at home and connect remotely to the company server, and all of the potential mischief and mayhem that can present for our trusty cyber criminals who are always out there.

Mike Blake: [00:06:10] So, let me ask this. I’m already going off the script, but I know you can handle it. Do you think as soon as this started happening, cyber criminals around the world, and crime syndicates, and so forth, and even state-sponsored are sort of rubbing their hands in anticipation because of the vulnerabilities here?

Justin Daniels: [00:06:27] I have three words for you. They think of this as target-rich environment. Absolutely, because any kind of dislocation like that, just like you’re advising your clients to think strategically about new ways to do business, a pandemic like this for a cyber-criminals says, “Wow, look at all this dislocation and people working remotely, this is just a great opportunity to commit different and varied types of crimes.” And as we get into this, I’ll share with you some of the things that we’re already seeing, which are cyber threats that are very specific to coronavirus when it comes to phishing and other kinds of things, but absolutely.

Mike Blake: [00:07:08] So, now, everybody has gone home. And for, at least, in many cases, they’re working on their personal device in some respect. And they may have been before, but certainly more of them are now. What sort of issues does using your personal device to telework present?

Jodi Daniels: [00:07:25] Sure. And so, you have the teleworking piece, but you also have, a lot of people like us, you have children doing distance learning and virtual learning. And so, it’s very similar scenarios. But you have probably no VPN, maybe the home Wi-Fi doesn’t have a password, or the password is password, or my pet’s name, something very simple that’s really easy to crack. So, if I don’t have a good password or no password, that’s sort of the first line of defense on the Wi-Fi or router. And then, I might not have a VPN, a virtual private network. That’s often been sort of saved for some of the more sophisticated or bigger companies. And again,  just an aside, if I was a company and sent everyone home because that’s what we needed to do, I didn’t think about a VPN and how I set that up.

Jodi Daniels: [00:08:15] A lot of people who are now potentially exposing company data fairly easily, the Wi-Fi might be one kind of wall that’s a bad actor has to make it through. A VPN would be a second wall that they’d have to make it through. You also have company information now on a personal device, which presents two interesting things. You have the security challenge. You actually also have a privacy challenge because the privacy laws haven’t gone away. And now, you’ve just exposed further where that personal information is. And you have others in the home who might be seeing it. And maybe someone comes along and, oops, accidentally sends that email that you had and draft that had all this information on it or shared information that they didn’t anticipate doing or a variety of things kind of like that.

Mike Blake: [00:09:10] So, you talk about the Wi-Fi piece. And I wanted to divert into that because I think that’s really important. When I think of Wi-Fi security, I think of going on airport Wi-Fi, Starbucks, whatever. Obviously, a vulnerability. And as you mentioned, that’s a target rich environment because if I’m a hacker, I know there’s 20 people in there that are using them, that are using Wi-Fi. Chances are there’s one computer in there, at least, that’s not secured properly. In a residential environment, what is the crime case there? Have you heard of criminals literally just like is parking outside somebody’s home, or a group of homes, or maybe a multi residential property, and just scanning for open networks and seeing if they can hack in?

Jodi Daniels: [00:09:58] Yeah. Well, if you actually think back to some of the stories you’ve seen on the children’s baby monitors that had Wi-Fi on them and how people were able to hack in. And sort of a nanny cam, people would call. The same idea is true. Those are on Wi-Fi networks. So, you have a couple different things. You have people from around the world who can break into those Wi-Fi networks that don’t necessarily … You know, there’s backdoors into all of this. Certainly, people could park outside my house. My neighbors can break in. We all don’t exactly know who our neighbors are all the time. So, you’re certainly exposing yourself. And the way the digital system works, I don’t necessarily have to be in range to be able to still break in, just like with those nanny cams years ago or ring devices. We’ve seen the developers of certain different Wi-Fi-enabled devices be able to break in and see whatever they want to see on those exposed devices.

Mike Blake: [00:10:53] So, are there any new threats that are being posed by mass teleworking, or do kind of the distribution or the composition of the threats change? Well, I guess what is the threat? How does the threat landscape change now that we’re in this mass remote working environment?

Justin Daniels: [00:11:14] So, Mike, I think the way that it changes is the type of phishing scams that you had before where they try to get to you through work, they’re now going to try to get to you as a remote worker. And let me break this down for you a little bit. So, you’re going to start to get emails that are very specific to coronavirus. And someone shared with me one that said, “Hey, this is from the CDC.com,” or I’m sorry, .gov.org. And the fact that they added on the “.org,” that’s what made it a phishing type of e-mail. So, now think about instead of phishing people at work, you’re now going to phish people at home, and they’d be distracted because they have kids, or trying to get work done, they have a million things on their mind.

Justin Daniels: [00:11:56] Well, let me take a step further for you. And it’s a concept called Identity Access Management. And what that really is, is have companies – because they so quickly get their remote workforce working remotely – did they really think about, “Well, how do I have to limit the access of my employees?” Like, for example, with what you do, Mike, it might be that your company says, ‘You know what? Mike gets access to the network, but there’s probably no reason for him to get access to invoicing or cash management,” because that’s not really your role. But I think what you’re going to find with a lot of these other companies who are just quickly trying to get their employees working remotely, they didn’t think about how to limit the employees’ access to the company network.

Justin Daniels: [00:12:43] So, now, if I phish remotely on someone, not only may I get through their e-mail, I may get access to the entire company network because the company didn’t think through, “Well, maybe I need to limit their access.” And now, they can get to the invoicing, they can get the wiring, they can get this sensitive company IP. So, it’s really a cascading effect because it’s not just the remote working, it’s how did you setup identity access management? How are you putting in layers of defense to help your people who are working remotely? Because just the phish e-mail is just the first step in getting access to a network that they may not have limited appropriately for the different workers because you put several thousand people working remotely, a lot of companies may not have thought about this.

Mike Blake: [00:13:29] I think that’s a really interesting point that you bring up. So, I want to drill back into that. So much of cyber security still relies on the focus of the individual user. And that distraction I face, I have a nine year old that we’re homeschooling now. My wife has her own business. Our situation is not that dissimilar to yours. And it’s different. Even though I work from home a lot, it’s still different. And I have to change my work hours and so forth to make sure I can concentrate. But all it does, and because the nature of cyber threats, all it does is, it takes one wrong clicked email when you’re not 100% focused, and the whole house of cards can come down, right?

Justin Daniels: [00:13:29] That’s it. That’s it.

Mike Blake: [00:14:17] And so, I think a key bullet point, if you’re a remote worker and you’re listening to this podcast or if you’re a manager, one of the things to think about, aside from policies, and software, and hardware – and we will get into that – is also just maintaining concentration and focus because not only are we in a target rich environment but, realistically, for a lot of people, we’re in an environment that encourages mistakes. Sorry. Go ahead.

Jodi Daniels: [00:14:49] I just want to add. I think this environment, also, it’s emotionally charged. People are tired. They’re stressed. We’re all at home hoping we don’t get this disease. We might know others who do. And there’ll also be a fair amount of personal information that might come through our personal emails like, “Please donate to this cause here,” or like the one that Justin just said, “Let’s get more information on the virus here.” And so, when your defenses are down because you’re tired, and you’re trying to do 14 things at the same time, there’s going to be a multitude of different ways of how these actors are going to try and get at you.

Mike Blake: [00:15:33] So, let’s start at the heart of this from the infrastructure-wise. I think we’ll kind of start there and work our way out. Employees are now going to be accessing their servers remotely through the internet, through their home access. It maybe cable. It maybe fibr for some case. It maybe through their mobile device. How does that change the security equation? And how should companies be reacting or addressing that to minimize the security exposure at the infrastructure level?

Justin Daniels: [00:16:09] So, Mike, let’s talk about that. So, when you log on to your network with your business, I suspect you may have something, as Jodi alluded to, what’s called a virtual private network. So, let’s talk a little bit in general business terms  what that is. So, that is software that you can put on your computer that creates a secure link between you and your company network using your home internet. But here’s the thing with VPN that’s interesting, is IT infrastructure wasn’t built so that everybody would be connecting via virtual private network.

Justin Daniels: [00:16:54] So, one of the things that companies may face is, one, they may not have sufficient licenses to put everyone on a VPN. But second, and probably just as important, is their network may not have the capacities to sustain the load of almost all of your workforce being remote. So, you may need to put in policies and procedures that say only certain employees have access during certain times because if everybody goes at the same time and is using it at the same time, you’re likely to have a disruption to your network or worse, it could go down. And then, you compound the problem.

Justin Daniels: [00:17:30] So, that’s just from an IT perspective, in addition to the security, because security is part and parcel of how do I keep stuff running because if it’s not secure, and we have a breach, then things don’t really run. But in general, how are you thinking about your IT infrastructure? And I think a lot of people did this because they had to get it done to keep working without thinking through, we’re gonna do this for an indefinite period of time. How do I make sure my IT infrastructure has the capacity to take care of all these people and also do it in a reasonably secure fashion?

Mike Blake: [00:18:05] So, you bring up virtual private network. I want to touch on that too because some people may have virtual private networks already, they may have purchased one because they’re concerned about the abolition of net neutrality. Some people have them because they want to be able to access Star Trek Discovery on Netflix. So, they spoof it into thinking they’re an international subscriber. So, it has been a consumer use case for VPN. Is that the same thing? And if I already have a VPN, does that mean that I’m using that to access those corporate documents or are we talking about two different animals?

Jodi Daniels: [00:18:45] I don’t know that it’s necessarily different. I think if you’re going to use any software on your personal computer to access the company network, your company and their IT professionals should be involved in that because I think one of the things you and I talked about was, should you use your own devices? And I think the answer to that is my company issued me a computer, but that may not be a realistic choice under this time pressure for everyone. So, my answer to you is you might be able to do it, but it’s not something where a company should said, “Hey, Mike, go off in whatever VPN you might have. Just go and use it.” It needs to be more of a concerted, “we’ve engaged with professionals and this is the type of VPN we want you to use. We’re going to give it to you because even though you’re letting employees have their own access, you want to have some level of control.”

Justin Daniels: [00:19:35] And we haven’t even talked about our iPhones. And that’s a whole nother area. And remember, a VPN just deals with the connection from you connecting to your server. It doesn’t really deal with any PII or other sensitive information that may now reside on your phone or your computer, and how that might impact the ransomware attack.

Mike Blake: [00:19:56] Yeah. And we’re definitely going to get to that. So, we’re kind of moving from that access in on out. The licensing issue you bring up is interesting. We phased out at the firm that I used to work for, when we had the Snowmageddon back, I want to say 2014, I think that sort of was. And of course, we’re all home. Once we finally got home, we’re home for about three days while the ice melted. And a lot of us couldn’t get on because we didn’t have enough licenses. We had to start rationing license. Then, we scrambled. But we never foresaw a scenario where 300 people, all of a sudden, would need remote access. And ironically, I think that’s actually made a lot of Atlanta companies better prepared for this, because we had sort of a dress rehearsal back and forth team to do just that.

Mike Blake: [00:20:52] Let me ask this. I know this is an area that you deal with a lot. So, I think your answer is going to be great. And that is, what are the cyber liability policy implications of moving to this mass remote working? When insurers wrote that policy, they thought there’s only a certain amount of remote and a certain amount of onsite. Now, that whole thing’s been disrupted. Are people’s policies being blown up if there is a breach? Are companies still covered?

Justin Daniels: [00:21:23] So, I think the answer to that question, Mike, is you really have to look at your individual policy, because if I’ve learned anything when I’ve been involved in the cyber insurance game is that there is no uniform policy out there like you have with commercial general liability or some of the other more well established type of policies. And so, I think what you’re going to have to do is take a look at the exclusions in your policy because it’s one of the hardest contracts that I have to read. And I hesitate to give you an answer that’s definitive because it’s really policy-dependent.

Justin Daniels: [00:21:58] But what I will say is companies should really be looking at whether or not they have specific, they call it social engineered emails in their coverage because a lot of companies may not realize that they’re not covered for the kinds of increase in what I expect of phishing scams to be, and they may want to look at their insurance and say, “Well, how am I covered for this?” because you probably know this, we’re in kind of the season where insurance is being renewed. And so, this is now a great time to bring up the issue of, “Hey, what is my coverage for socially engineered emails? And what is covered? What isn’t covered? Can I increase my defenses, so that I can get bigger coverage? What is excluded now that I’m more of a remote workforce?

Justin Daniels: [00:22:48] These are questions that should be brought up now because I know we are now in the season for people getting renewals on their insurance, and premiums might be changing on that kind of stuff. But now is the time to be asking those questions to the insurers because you know what, when you talked about Snowmageddon, you bring up a larger point. A lot of companies who really don’t have or never practice their business continuity plan, they’re now having to build it in flight.

Justin Daniels: [00:23:16] And so, an additional challenge is this teleworking issue is a big one. I think we’re going to see a rise in cyber breaches, but they’re going to have to figure that along with furloughing employees. What if my employee, do I have to test them for the COVID? If they test positive, what do I do? So, now, you’ve got this teleworking issue sitting alongside all those other issues as a business. And it’s a capacity issue. How many of these issues can you deal with in mid-flight if you don’t have a plan and you’ve never practiced it? And that’s why I think you’re going to see such a rise in breaches because people are going to discount this one for some of these more immediate ones until this one becomes a huge problem.

Mike Blake: [00:23:57] Yeah, I think a key bullet point. And I appreciate you can’t answer this blanket. I mean, you sound like you have command of everybody’s insurance policy.

Justin Daniels: [00:24:06] Yeah.

Mike Blake: [00:24:06] But it does sound like it is definitely worth your while at a minimum to pull your policy out and see how this changing environment may alter the coverage. So, let’s move then sort of away from the infrastructure then to the individual device access. We’ll get to mobile in a second but I want to ask a question about computers first because I think they’re slightly different. And my question is this, I guess, broadly, what would best practices be for companies in terms of monitoring, policing, developing  standards, I guess, around the actual hardware that employees are using to telework?

Jodi Daniels: [00:24:59] Well so, I think that starts with a few different things. There’s certainly software that companies can use to manage and monitor what’s happening. There’s data loss prevention software, there’s monitoring software, there’s VPN monitoring software, there’s noodles of software to actually manage the ins and outs of data on a network. At the same time, you really have to have some policies in place that inform the employee what is actually being monitored. And that’s really important depending on the country you’re in. So, if you’re outside the US, there’s some stricter policies in place, especially if you’re in GDP, what you can and can’t be monitoring, and what you have to disclose to me. If I’m here in the United States, there are still some issues. So, you kind of need to factor in the HR component combined with an information security policy.

Jodi Daniels: [00:25:56] So, while there’s an IT team who can identify the right software depending on the type of information and the number of employees to be able to monitor and determine where is traffic coming in and out of, what’s being downloaded, there’s capabilities to restrict what’s being downloaded, or shared, or forwarded. There’s a lot that you can do. And again, it’s very dependent on the company and the type of data. You do have to factor in the human element and the notice requirements, so that employees understand what is happening to them, to not have it be such a huge surprise.

Mike Blake: [00:26:37] Now, the question I think that follows from that naturally is, where’s that software going to reside? Of course, many people, not everybody, but many people do own their own computers. And so, they could use that to access whatever it is they need access or do. Is that the right answer is BYOD? And now, WYOD, just work on your own device. Is that presenting additional challenges? And if so, maybe, should a company consider them, at least, giving employees the option to use company issued equipment, so that maybe the company has more power over this, or maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree? Is that a way to think about this?

Jodi Daniels: [00:27:31] I think it’s a great question. So, BYOD, WWOD, pick your flavor of acronym, they all do present big issues. And again, a policy piece is something I’ve helped a number of companies on, which is, what is the policy? Because it does make it a little bit harder if I have my own device, depending on the tools that I’m using, you may or may not be able to see what I’m doing on that device. So, in some policies, the company has the right to take a look at it at any time. I have the right to be able to wipe it at any time. And I know we’re gonna get into mobile, but that’s really quite similar for mobile because a lot of times, I’m putting my company email on mobile, I might access my apps on mobile. It’s really very similar of what power does the company have to be able to come in and kind of audit, if you will, be able to test and control when it needs to, and it reserves the right to be able to do so.

Jodi Daniels: [00:28:29] At the same time, because there’s so much in the cloud these days, if I’m using Google Docs or I’m using Exchange, there are still some monitoring tools that can be connected to those cloud servers. So, let’s say I’m sending an email, and I’m trying to forward it to a personal email, there is some capabilities to be able to limit that. You can put in certain … you can’t forward it to G-mails, and Yahoo!’s, and things like that. I’ve seen companies do that. So, it’s a little bit dependent on the type of software I’m using, but it is definitely still possible.

Mike Blake: [00:29:06] So, let me bring up a specific case that I think if I were in a decision making capacity – I guess I semi am – that would concern me if I’m allowing all my employees to use their personal devices, particularly if they’re not necessarily particularly conscientious about their own security is, who knows what is on the employees computer, right? And whether it’s free apps, whether they’ve downloaded pornography, whatever they’ve done with their computer, we know that there’s malware and other things that piggyback off of other content that may be basically cohabitating with company data in some respect, right? So, if we’re going to ask employees to use their own equipment, is that an additional risk? And is that one that the company can reasonably manage absent issuing everybody a company-issued laptop that then the company can lock down, and restrict use, and downloads, and all that good stuff?

Justin Daniels: [00:30:15] So, Mike, I think to address that question, what I would say is I am going use a term I learned from the US Secret Services, it’s really about concentric rings of defense. And what I mean by that is you’re absolutely right, who knows what employees have downloaded? And if you’re a company who’s not in the position to configure a hundred computers or whatnot and just disseminate them out, you’re kind of in a spot where you’re going down BYOD. But as I alluded to before, I think you have to go at this with a sense of you’re going to assume that some fish e-mail is going to make it through. They only have to be right once. So, you do security, I think, you train people up the best that you can, but you do it under the assumption that some e-mail or something is going to get clicked on because that’s just the law of averages.

Justin Daniels: [00:31:06] But the other things that you can do, and I alluded to it before, is are you making sure that your employees have the least amount of access necessary to do their work? Meaning that even if you phish someone, maybe it’s the administrative assistant to the CEO, that they don’t have access to billing and invoicing. The access that a criminal would get is very limited. So, then, what you’re adding in are these other layers of defense that make it harder for a criminal to get around, to get to your wire instructions or get to other information that they’re seeking to get to because you just don’t give people carte blanch access to the network.

Justin Daniels: [00:31:46] And are you using – and you’ve probably heard of this – two factor authentication? Maybe you have instances where if you want access to certain parts of the network, there has to be a higher level of authentication than is required, so that people get access to invoicing, billing, financial statements, things of that nature. So, there are other things that you can implement to institute all these different layers of defense among the different assets that you’re identifying as being the most important for your organization.

Justin Daniels: [00:32:15] And that’s a lot of what I’ve been doing lately for clients is I’ve been helping them issue spot across a whole different swath of areas that are impacting their business. And when we start talking about teleworking, I start to ask these questions. When they say, “Oh, well, they just have access to the network,” then that’s where you’re creating the opportunities to help clients identify these issues, and then start to implement this defense and depth, which, really, it’s a factor of the technology that you’re using, we talked about; pop processes and procedures, Jodi alluded to that; and also, it’s educating your workforce about what to look for in phishing. It’s really doing all three of those things and doing it in layers of defense.

Jodi Daniels: [00:32:58] All right. So, let’s then move out to the mobile device. And I appreciate that that’s similar to the more conventional work device, but I think they’re a little bit different in that mobile devices are more likely to have been issued by someone’s employment. At a minimum, they’re probably picking up the tab for the access, which I think, then, gives the company certain rights that they may not have with respect to a true BYOD. So, how does the equation now change for mobile devices? Or let me ask this. iPhone or Apple has gotten a lot of publicity for their security. Even the government can’t crack it, et cetera. So, I don’t know if that’s true or that’s a sort of an urban legend like roving bands of surgeons that steal kidneys, but that’s certainly the reputation. Does the security equation change with mobile devices? And if mobile devices do, in fact, offer superior security, is there a case to be made that maybe you want to try to work off a mobile devices as much as possible?

Justin Daniels: [00:34:12] So, Mike, I’m going to answer the first part of that. So, when I was in Israel on a mission for cyber, even the Israelis said the iPhone is a much better platform for security. And one of the big reasons why is everything with Apple is internal to Apple with the apps and everything else. With Android and some of the other users system environments, other developers can come, and create things, and put them onto their systems. So, those are potential areas of weakness as opposed to Apple that’s very much self-contained. It is very difficult to breach Apple’s security, as we know from the San Bernardino issue and whatnot. So, Jodi and I happen to have the iPhones. So, one thing people should be doing is you can have a passcode that’s six digits long instead of four. People should implement that. It’s another layer of security.

Justin Daniels: [00:35:09] As for the other parts of your question, with mobile devices, I know that you can install software from a company perspective on devices that you give people that allows you to monitor the software or monitor the machine, what’s coming on to it, but also more importantly, what if somebody just loses it or something happens? It allows you to wipe their machine immediately. And having some of that software, particularly on devices that the company has issued, can really be the difference between a large breach and keeping something on a low boil because you’re able to get to your machine or your phone and just wipe it.

Justin Daniels: [00:35:43] So, that’s where, to me, mobile devices have some other security that might be if the companies issued all the phones, and they don’t have it on there, they might want to consider pushing apps out to their users, so they can now monitor the phone, the ISPs. And it shouldn’t be an issue if those are phone issued by the company, you just probably want to check some of your policies and employee handbook, so that people are made aware of you, and you put it on the computer or the phone that says, “Hey, look, anything you do on this, we can monitor.”

Jodi Daniels: [00:36:15] I’d add two interesting things. So, on the Apple side, one important distinction is a lot of people, they might use Slack or other chat channels, but if they use the iMessage, iMessage, so Apple to Apple is what’s encrypted. But if I’m Apple to Android, I’m not encrypted. So, kind of an interesting differentiation on that. And then, if I’m a company who didn’t issue devices, and now everyone’s remote, and I have all these mobile devices, another avenue to, at least, be able to protect the data without … there are going to be some companies who don’t want to say, “I’m going to wipe all the data on your personal device.” That’s just not going to be the culture. For that company, the six digit passcode is going to be really important one. You can also have two factor authentication on the different company-focused apps, and tools, and suites, and things along those lines too. Again, it’s another added layer to Justin’s concentric methodology.

Mike Blake: [00:37:15] And what do you think about biometric authentication? That’s getting more and more common. Android is headed for a while. Apple is catching up. Windows, hello. I’m a big fan of it. And I also use KeyLemon for Apple devices. Are you a big fan of biometric authentication as well, or do you think it’s overkill?

Jodi Daniels: [00:37:36] I think it depends on the type of data that your company has. I think it’s just all relative to the type. Again, what kind of information and the volume of information that the employee has? Maybe it’s appropriate for some employees, not for other employees. And bring it to the privacy side, biometrics is a very sensitive area. So, for anyone who has employees really actually anywhere in Europe, for sure, it’s a sensitive data field under GDPR. That requires special notice and consent. And then, for States, here in the United States, biometric, also, there’s a variety of hoops you have to go through. So, can absolutely still do it. Just have to make sure you follow the laws where you’ve notified, you’ve asked for consent, I get what I’m doing. And to me, it’s just a matter of, does it make sense? Is it the right method for what I’m using?

Mike Blake: [00:38:30] So, you mentioned privacy. That’s a good segue to the next question I wanted to ask, which is, does this new work regime create loopholes that have not been foreseen in privacy protection and ownership protocols? Are there companies that, therefore, might be tempted to collect data that they wouldn’t necessarily be in a position to collect before? Is that an issue? And then, what are best practices to kind of safeguard against that?

Jodi Daniels: [00:39:05] So, from an employee standpoint … And there’s a difference, I think, between us and the rest of the world. The rest of the world generally has stricter privacy regulations than what we have here in the US. And in the US, we’re very sectoral. Every industry is going to have its own privacy laws. But if I had any level of a remote workforce, I likely was already monitoring something – IP addresses, where are people accessing my network from, and things along like that. If I have more of them, I probably just have more data points. If a company is going to start analyzing it and using it in some other fashion, then I think that does tie into the loopholes that you’ve just described.

Jodi Daniels: [00:39:50] I personally haven’t heard of any company yet trying to do that. I think everyone is just in a little bit of survival mode trying to keep their business afloat as best as they can. So, it’s quite possible, but I haven’t heard of that yet. It would, though, go to the same theme that we’ve been talking about, which it brings it back to policy. Whatever it is that a company is doing, whether it’s on your customers or for your employees, you need to have a policy that informs them of what it is that you’re doing. And in some countries, the individual rights might be a little bit greater and the notice might be a little bit greater, but it is a fundamental privacy baseline to inform of what it is that companies are doing.

Justin Daniels: [00:40:37] Mike, I want to add one other point alongside of what Jodi is saying is. If I’m a company, and if it’s the difference between my sales going down by 80% and collecting and using data to market to people, I think you know what a lot of companies are likely to decide to do, particularly small or medium sized companies that may not have the cash reserves to withstand this. So, I think you’re going to have a lot of companies making some pretty tough decisions. Well, we got these privacy laws and these other things. Well, I need to sell this because I need to generate revenue. And I think that’s also going to create some issues.

Mike Blake: [00:41:13] Yeah. And that answer segues in a question that I’ve got to ask. And it’s an unfair question, but I’m going to ask it anyway.

Justin Daniels: [00:41:20] Okay.

Mike Blake: [00:41:20] And the question is this, is that I think more companies are in this position than are going to admit. One day, everybody is in the office. The next day, everybody isn’t. Most companies probably are just not compliant as they need to be day one. I mean, I think that’s a fact of life. How do you manage that? Is the best practice to cause all of your operations until you get compliant? Do you just sort of roll that, and do the best you can, and hope that you don’t get unlucky, and you kind of make it until you do get to the point where you want to be? That’s a real kind of brass tacks decision. How do you think about that? I got to imagine your clients are raising that issue with you.

Jodi Daniels: [00:42:10] Yeah, we each have some thoughts. I think we’re going to both take a stab. I think that the reality is business needs to go on, especially in the environment that we’re in right now. And for any of the privacy laws and security requirements, it’s impossible to be perfectly 100% secure and 100% compliant. Companies should do the best that they can. And for some, it’s just starting out, and they know the five things they need to do. They have a list and they’re going to dedicate to working towards as many of them as they can. For others, they’re farther down the path, and they’re going to try and maintain where it is that they are.

Jodi Daniels: [00:42:50] So, generally, I don’t think it’s the best idea to just stop all business and wait for sort of your perfect compliance secure program because it’s moving. The security challenges are continuously changing. It’s doing the best that you can. Everyone can pretty simply educate a workforce of what they should be on the lookout for. There’s some practical items that they can do pretty simply. And there’s some more complicated things that they can work towards. And this is probably not the first time we’re going to have this. So, planning for the next iteration, I think, is going to be incredibly important. And Justin, I’m sure you have some thoughts too.

Justin Daniels: [00:43:34] So, Mike, I’ve already had that some pretty tough discussions with people, particularly around potentially violating one law or having a potential lawsuit. And I’ve had to give some tough advice because you’re put in a position where the uncertainty of a lawsuit versus maybe violating some other law, I’m going to violate the law, kind of know what that might look like because you’re just trying to make some tough business decisions. When it comes to the security and the privacy, it’s like every other risk in your business. You need to manage it.

Justin Daniels: [00:44:07] And what Jodi and I have tried to articulate in our discussion today are some of the real commonsense things that you can do that don’t cost tons of money, don’t take an overwhelming amount of effort to start to manage this because you and I both know there’s no way people are going to wait to be perfectly compliant. That’s not what they’re gonna do. But what they can do is, is if they do none of the things we’ve talked about and have these issues, if you have a data breach on top of what the environment is now, I think most companies, you’re done.

Justin Daniels: [00:44:40] And so, what can companies be doing to do some commonsense things that don’t cost the sun and the moon to address this? And that’s really the approach that Jodi and I have taken with our clients and customers on how to manage this amongst all the other things that people are trying to manage, because you know what businesses are focused on. How do I trim expenses and how do I generate new revenue? And within all of that, how do I manage these risks, which are very real when you have a remote workforce from a security and privacy standpoint?

Mike Blake: [00:45:12] So, Jodi and Justin, this has been a great conversation. I’ve learned a lot. I think our listeners are going to learn a lot as well. They probably will have more questions. How can they contact you for more information?

Jodi Daniels: [00:45:26] Sure. So, for me, a couple of different ways. My website is redcloveradvisors.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Red Clover Advisors or personally, Jodi Daniels. Real simply, email is just jodi@redcloveradvisors.com.

Justin Daniels: [00:45:45] As for me, my email is jdaniels@bakerdonelson.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn because Jodi and I post on these topics very regularly for more information. And I also have been advising companies just generally on strategically issue spotting. And so, if companies need help with that as this is important but not the only point. I’ll be honest, Mike, that’s been the bulk of my advisory services lately is helping companies strategically implement a business continuity plan in mid air because they either haven’t had one or the one they have doesn’t really relate to something this significant.

Mike Blake: [00:46:33] Well, thanks so much. That’s going to wrap it up for today’s program. I’d like to thank Jodi Daniels of Red Clover and Justin Daniels of Baker Donelson so much for joining us and sharing their expertise with us today. We’ll be exploring a new topic each week. So, please tune in, so that when you’re faced with your next executive decision, you have clear vision when making it. If you enjoy these podcast, please consider leaving a review with your favorite podcast aggregator. It helps people find us, so that we can help them. Once again, this is Mike Blake. Our sponsor is Brady Ware & Company. And this has been the Decision Vision Podcast.

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