Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have the founder and executive coach with Gray Bear Advisors, Peter Dudley. Welcome.

Peter Dudley: Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I am excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your firm, Gray Bear Advisors. How are you serving folks?

Peter Dudley: Yeah, we, uh, so we do coaching, advising, uh, business advising, caregiver coaching. I am professional life and executive coach. I have a longtime background in, uh, in business and executive leadership. And my partner and I, because of things that we’ve gone through over the last few years, have gotten very into helping people who are at the peak of their careers or growing their careers. And now they have like a caregiving responsibility, and we help them navigate that and flourish through it instead of have it derail their career or their job or their, uh, their life.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. I bet when you got into coaching, you weren’t thinking, yeah, one day I’m going to get involved in working compassionately with caregivers. I’m sure that wasn’t on your bingo card when you started.

Peter Dudley: Oh yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, I got into coaching four years ago after a long and diverse career in various leadership roles, a diversity of industries, and I was very excited about coaching. If you had asked me at that point, do I want to help caregivers through what they’re going through, I would have said, oh no, no way, because I don’t want to wander around in other people’s trauma. That’s just going to be too hard for me. I want to help people build businesses. But having gone through it ourselves and having gone through it myself and now having so much more experience with the human side of what coaching is and does and can be. It just is. It feels like a calling. And you know, it’s not wandering around in other people’s trauma. It’s helping people avoid the trauma that can happen through unforced errors and self-inflicted problems that are totally avoidable. And, and the coaching, uh, is really a great way to, to bring my positivity to help people through this time.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. It’s, uh, you’re the first person that I’ve spoken with and I’ve interviewed hundreds, if not thousands of coaches over the years who has kind of married these two distinct stages in people’s lives, you know, kind of needing help from a business coaching standpoint and then also needing help from a caregiver standpoint. I mean, there to combine those two is, um, I mean, I can see, I can see where you’re coming from, where you’re uniquely qualified to be able to offer help in this area. But it just, I mean, it’s hard for me to imagine before you started doing it, that someone would intentionally go on this path, you know, without the experiences you had.

Peter Dudley: Well, you know, it’s what’s interesting is there is a lot of support for caregivers. And that typically comes in the form of therapy or support groups or social work. And there is a lot of coaching available to people for their careers and the relationships. And the only time that I have seen those two really come together is more in that end of life, death, doula kind of relationship, which is not at all where where I live. Mostly it is focused on the patient, the person going through the thing and caregiver coaching. We have found is we, I, when I say we, I mean my partner, Antoinette and I, we are business partners. We are life partners. So partners in all sense. We do this work together. Um, we, we have found that while support groups and therapy in those modalities really do help people feel less alone, um, they help them get more regulated. They help through trauma. They help dig up past emotional experiences. Um, they kind of fall short of that. What coaching can bring and marrying the, uh, you know, global corporate leadership of 20 years and social impact and, uh, the creative side of us with the coaching modality and our lived experience through caregiving. It’s, uh, I think more people probably could do it, but it’s, it’s a hard thing. And it takes some, some background and attention to it.

Lee Kantor: Now, are you getting your clients from current business coaching clients that are now having to deal with an issue with a relative, a parent, something along those lines? Or are people coming to you directly that have kind of caregiver issues that they need help with, and then you become the right fit for them?

Peter Dudley: It’s both. Actually, so many of the corporate and nonprofit executive clients that I’ve had, uh, you know, we almost all of us have experienced some caregiving, uh, duty, obligation. And it’s really hard, particularly when you’re a senior executive to compartmentalize life and work. There’s going to be an overlap, particularly with the profound emotional experience that caregiving brings along with it. So some of my business clients, we start talking about what else is going on in their lives and that caregiving comes up. And so I feel uniquely positioned to help them through that and, and continue the effective at work where we are bringing more people in from the caregiving mindset is, um, we published a book called relit How to Rekindle Yourself in the Darkness of Compassion Fatigue in the fall of 2024. And we’ve been doing a lot of workshops based on that material. Um, we started out, uh, helping people through burnout and compassion fatigue. And it turns out that what we’re really doing is we’re teaching and coaching resilience. And now we have really focused that into caregiver resilience. So we’ve been doing a lot of workshops on that. And that’s how we’re sort of bringing people in to understand what coaching can do, uh, as opposed to the traditional modalities available to them.

Lee Kantor: Well, you used the phrase compassion fatigue. I like to unpack that a little bit. Um, because a lot of folks who are like, this is something where typically I would imagine, I mean, I’ve had this happen to me and my family. Um, you know, there’s, everyone’s going to go through it at some form or fashion in their life as you just age. But, um, can you talk about the, I mean, you’re using these words probably on purpose, um, talk about compassion fatigue because people go into this and they want to help, and they think they are the right person to be doing this kind of work. But I don’t think when they just raise their hand and say, okay, I’ll take care of this, they understand how relentless that job you just volunteered for is.

Peter Dudley: I think so, I think you’re absolutely right. A lot of people get into it unprepared for what’s coming. They know that they are capable. They’ve been successful in other areas. And so they think that success will help them through it. Um, you know, one of the things we hear all the time is I have a great relationship with my siblings. So caring for mom or dad with dementia, we’re all going to be on the same page and we’re going to do this. Great. And then you check in back in with them a year later after having not talked to them, and you find out that some of them are on the outs and they’re not speaking to each other, and there’s resentment build up. And those are completely avoidable errors For the most part, almost all the time. But the compassion fatigue. There’s, um, there are different things that can be called, uh, what most of us feel and call burnout. And compassion fatigue is one of those flavors. And largely that is, it manifests as, um, you sort of lose the ability to care. Uh, it’s the exhaustion. It’s a deep spiritual, emotional, existential exhaustion that makes you stop having empathy and sympathy and caring about other people. And, uh, it’s a common thing in caregiving. But what we found when we were putting the book together was it happens in all kinds of professions. We have a chapter from a, a veterinarian that is particularly poignant, uh, corporate relocation manager, uh, a social worker, of course, an expert in suicide prevention, of course. Um. But it’s family caregiving. It’s any kind of profession where you were, frankly, you have to care about something. Uh, it can lead to compassion fatigue, which is a little bit different from burnout, but, uh.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think it’s, um, it’s like the kind of the movie Groundhog Day. It’s like every day feels like the same day, but it’s really not the same day, but it kind of feels like the same day. And then every morning you wake up and you think you know what’s ahead of you. And then, you know, it could be a day where nothing dramatic happens, but it could be a day that something dramatic happens. And, and that just kind of unknown just wears on you. It just can really wear on you if you’re not going in there with eyes wide open of what this could be. And especially if you don’t really get on the same page with the other family members. I mean, I think that’s critical. Uh, when we were dealing with it in our family, you know, we made certain rules, like if, you know, families are so spread out now, it’s easy for the family member that’s in a different state to start making rules where the person who’s boots on the ground, they’re they they’re the ones living it every day. I mean, we made a rule if you’re not there, then you gotta, you know, you’ve kind of lost your chance to have a lot of input. You can say what you want to say, but it doesn’t mean we’re implementing what you’re going to say because you’re four states away.

Peter Dudley: So I think you’ve hit on a number of important things there. And one is, uh, the difference in perception. So I want to, I want to touch on the Groundhog Day thing first. I think that is a beautiful call out because what is the shift in that movie for him? It’s when he takes ownership of his story and he starts turning what feels like a repeat of this kind of a prison moment into, well, there’s opportunity here. I can, I can mindset shift and take a totally different approach to this. And then the movie changes and his whole story changes and his outcome becomes a very different one. So I think it’s a great call out. Um, and then you went into a description of, um, a rule that your family put in place, which I think is totally fair. The rule that you said is if, if you’re not the one that’s here doing the work day to day, then yeah, okay. You can have some input because we value your input. I’m assuming there’s some of that, but your, your view into it, your experience of it is limited. So if we don’t take your opinion on that, that’s because we are making discerning decisions in the moment here based on reality that we’re living. Um, I want to acknowledge that. And I think that’s a great thing. I hope it worked out for you. It’s well.

Lee Kantor: In order for it to work out, though, I believe that you all have to be on the same page in the sense that we all have the same out. You know, we’re all kind of rooting for the same team. We all want good things to happen that nobody here is trying to sabotage or do something, you know, malicious or manipulative that we’re all trying to, you know, make this go as good as it can go. Like, so you have to have kind of a true north in the discussion up front so that everybody knows, okay, our heart’s in the right place. I’m not saying this because I’m just a jerk and I think I’m smarter than you. Uh, like, you have to be on the same page.

Peter Dudley: Yes, absolutely. And and that is a constantly changing thing. Um, particularly in the case of something like dementia, where, uh, your, your person is probably losing capacity over time. And so the person that’s experiencing the hands on caregiving is having a fluid situation. And the person that’s at a distance doesn’t necessarily experience those changes. So you have to constantly. I think what you described is setting that baseline for communication and trust and. And interactivity with each other. But then you have to constantly recalibrate that. And that’s where a lot of people fall down.

Lee Kantor: Um, because they think it’s, it’s a set it and forget it, you know, hey, we made these agreements. So these are the rules from this point forward, whether, you know, no matter what happens, and this is a living, breathing document that has to be kind of changed based on new information.

Peter Dudley: Exactly. Otherwise, you start hearing things like, well, I know they mean well, but they just don’t get it. And I wish they wouldn’t interrupt and I wish they wouldn’t. Or, uh, you know, it’s I know they mean well, but they just don’t get it. And that, that is that seed of, uh, you know, sort of the pebble in the shoe that ultimately leads to down the road. Resentment. Uh, if it’s not constantly checked on.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, this is such a it’s such a tricky, um, issue to deal with. And people aren’t really prepared for this until they’re in it. And it’s kind of a just, you’re learning as you’re going. So I can see where having somebody by their side would be a number one, a big kind of, uh, relief in terms of a burden being lifted, but also kind of educating them on the language and how to communicate and to get clarity and all that other stuff that is the nuance of this that they may not be equipped to handle on their own, even if they read a book about it, you know, a week before they decided to do this.

Peter Dudley: Yeah. Or even if they’re listening to every podcast available. And, uh, and, you know, reading every book and reading every medical thing that comes out, um, whatever they’re doing, it’s, this is where, uh, having 20 or 30 years of building corporate teams really can come into play for me, because I’ve learned a lot of leadership techniques and communication techniques and being a writer and being communicator that, um, there’s just a multidimensionality to the way that we can approach what we’re talking about that isn’t limited to, uh, you know, if you’re in that caregiving role, you’re going to go hire a lawyer to help with the paperwork. You’re going to go talk to a social worker for, uh, to learn what services are available to you. Um, you may go to a support group to feel seen and less, less isolated and feel understood and less alone. But there isn’t really any other way to get that whole picture of, okay, you’ve got some family dynamics that you’re dealing with, which we normally think of as a therapy modality, but it doesn’t have to be. And you’ve got some team communication and project management dynamics that you have to deal with. And oh, by the way, there’s this whole knowledge base that you don’t yet know about because your person has been diagnosed with whatever, and you have to learn that. Um, you know, everybody’s gone through it for the first time probably. So having somebody that is a, a really competent guide can, can, uh, not just keep you going when you’re about to stall out, but, uh, actually help you point in the right direction so that you get everybody on the same page and you keep them on the same page and you keep going in that, that direction, that, that, you know, that that Groundhog Day mindset shift where you can start to see the beauty and the goodness and the learning that you get through a caregiving journey and not just all the things that you’re sacrificing for it and it’s taken away.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. You brought up a great point in that, um, when you’re new to this role, you’re entering a world where hopefully the people that are serving, um, your, the person you’re caring for isn’t new to the role. So they’ve been there, done that. So sometimes when you’re dealing with a whole slew of people that have been there, done that, and you’re the one who doesn’t know anything, it sometimes you get intimidated. You don’t know what are the dumb questions? I don’t know, should I ask this? Am I overstepping? And then you don’t want to be obnoxious about it, but you want answers and you don’t know how to kind of handle that and navigate that. So to have somebody by your side that’s kind of a quarterback or can give you kind of a bird’s eye view of, okay, don’t worry about that. That’s just how they do things. Or yeah, that’s not acceptable. That’s, that’s a red flag over there. You might want to think about going a different way. Like having somebody by their side is a huge relief, I would imagine, because it’s overwhelming when you’re you know, it’s one thing to deal with just the, the, the drama of whatever the situation is. Now you’re kind of the project manager. And that’s those are two different skills.

Peter Dudley: Yeah. And often, uh, particularly if so, one of the, one of the chapters in the book, Re-lit is from, um, a guy who was a caregiver for his wife through her end of life with cancer. And, uh, and his story is all about taking on everything and being the army of one and all the things he learned through that and the things he, he wishes he had done differently early on. And a lot of it is that you’re not just taking on maybe a project management role, you’ve not been trained for it, but you’re taking on a project management role in the medical space, in the finance space, in the, uh, the family coordination space and communication space taking on a lot of different roles that you may not have experience with. And even if you do, um, there’s one of the other authors in the book, um, is a social worker who I worked with at cancer support community for a number of years. And she had all of the skills and all the training and all the tools and knew how to do all of that and supported people through it. Um, day by day. But when it came time to be a family caregiver for her own brother, she found it really, really challenging, even with all of that, that background. So, you know, having that support, as you said, the person beside you that is, uh, both interested and disinterested, they can be detached, but they can also be there, uh, as your, as your champion and your support is really meaningful and powerful.

Lee Kantor: Now, can you share a little bit about what it’s like to work with you? So like, say I’m a maybe I’m going through coaching with you and you’re helping me and I’m, you know, now I’m promoted and everything’s good. And then boom, I get the call and now I got to deal with this, uh, you know, my father is ill, and now I’m in charge and I’m the one who lives close by. So how does that, you know, what are those early conversations I’m having with you look like, and how are you able to kind of be that bridge that helps me, uh, kind of manage this?

Peter Dudley: Yeah. Well, well, first of all, I’m always going to meet you where you are. The one of the things that my clients pretty much every single client I’ve ever had, and most of the people that I’ve worked with over the years, uh, in jobs, Sam, an incredibly calming person. I have this calming presence and I do, I listen very deeply. I can, I can listen for all the things you’re saying and not saying. I can, uh, pay attention to the energy you’re bringing and, and how your body is, um, is going through this as well. So the first part, when we first are talking about this, of course, we’ll explore a lot and we’ll look for what are the pitfalls that might be awaiting you down the road. Um, we’ll look for, uh, the workable actions that you can take to set yourself up to bring the people that you need into the circle and start setting up that, get on the page, get on the same page kind of agreement. Um, what, what we’ll discover is a lot of things along the way through this. Because even if I’ve been working with you for a year or 2 or 3 in a business career kind of situation, um, there may be a lot of aspects of you and your family and how you interact with people outside the workplace that we haven’t touched on. So there might be a lot of exploration where, oh, we should look into this because, um, you know, one of the, one of the examples I bring up is a lot of families fall apart through caregiving because the persons on the front line has long held beliefs about their siblings.

Peter Dudley: And, you know, my deadly brother’s never going to show up. He’s, you know, he’ll try to show up, but he’s not going to be able to do the things. And if I give him something to do, he won’t be able to do it. Um, one of the things that we actually experienced was the idea that, uh, if I don’t do it, it won’t get done. And so as a coach, I’m going to be listening for those kinds of aspects of what you’re going through to help you get a different mindset around that. Because oftentimes, um, people who are in caregiving roles, uh, get, um, that’s what I, what it says they are subject to rather than in control of their beliefs about other people and the situation and the things happening and what their own strengths are. And when they can, when I can broaden their view, open up that aperture wider so they can see other people in a new light, they can, uh, see how the work that needs to get done in a new light. That means they can excuse me, they can prioritize better. They can have a better understanding of the assets available to them, that they can deploy, the gaps that they’re going to have to face and what to do about that. And when you’re in that mindset, you make way better decisions than when you’re in a mindset of, oh, this is happening. I need to get this thing that’s right in front of me done. So that’s, I hope that answers the question, gives you a little bit of a sense of what working with me is like.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. Is there a story you can share that maybe makes that come to life where you explain the challenge they came to you with and, and what happened at the end and how they were able to kind of get to a better place. So don’t, don’t name their names, obviously, but just maybe share the challenge.

Peter Dudley: Yeah, I’ll I’ll talk about this, uh, this one woman, uh, I, I knew pretty well and, um, she was a distance caregiver. She lived in a different state and, uh, mom was, was elderly and had a fall and broke a bone. And although there was a local sister, uh, that sister was incapable of being, uh, caregiver for mom because of other health reasons, which I think were sort of derail things. And this friend of mine was in that mode of, I have to do everything. If, if I don’t do it, it won’t get done. And so when mom fell and broke a bone, the, the, the rehab facility called up my friend and said, hey, you know, your mom has dementia, right? So, uh, that sort of compounded things. And with working with her. I say friend, but she’s also client, um, working with her over the next six, 12, and 18 months. We, uh, uh, I helped her expand first that I need to control everything. If I don’t do it, it won’t get done. To actually expand her understanding of who could she rely on and what could she get done? Uh, could she let other people do? And where could she let things maybe be just good enough and let other people do it their way and really delegate? So helping her through that, and what she ended up finding was, uh, there were a number of people locally that could handle a lot of the things.

Peter Dudley: Um, and that freed her up. It let her make better decisions. Ultimately, um, her mom has passed, but ultimately she was able to be much more in a daughter role and spend time with her, with her mom. Once mom moved into a care situation. I spent time with her mom being creative and talking and laughing and not worrying so much about, uh is does the right does not have the right t shirts because the person asked to buy them is does mom have the right, um, snacks at her bedside? Uh, those kinds of things. So and that really opened up for my client, just a much better sense of life through the whole thing. And when we talk about that period, she now looks back at it with real fondness. And, um, and, uh, I, the words that I’m trying to come up with are not coming up for me, but instead of resentment instead of exhaustion, uh, it’s not a period she wants to stop thinking about. It’s a period she actually enjoys remembering.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. If you can help someone kind of move out of the logistics role and into the human role, that’s a better place to be.

Peter Dudley: Yeah. And you know, the other thing I’ll say about that is, and I have noticed this with a lot of people who go into caregiving, uh, who take on caregiving role is they tend to see, you know, sort of like everyone is, is the victim. So I’m the victim because I have to take on this caregiving role and I’m being burdened with this thing. My person that I’m caring for is a victim, but there’s no perpetrator that you can blame for that. So what ends up happening is a lot of people start blaming the system. Everything that goes wrong is, you know, the medical system isn’t sufficient. Uh, insurance doesn’t cover a thing. The I don’t have enough resources from the people around me. And what that does, unfortunately, is it turns the people who are actually caring for your person, the medical staff, the nurses, the CNAs, the the staff taking care of the facility into your opponent as opposed to into your own team member. And it’s so important to, to go into those situations with a sense of, hey, they’re on my team too. They, they want the good outcome for my person too. Um, it seems such a subtle little shift, particularly right at the beginning. But if you can get into the mindset where everybody is on my team and they may make mistakes and they may get things wrong from time to time, and if I can let those mistakes go and keep remembering they’re on my team, I won’t feel like I’m surrounded by opponents. I’ll feel like I’m surrounded by support.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think that’s a I mean, just in terms of humanity as a whole, I think the more benefit of the doubt we give to people who are acquaintances and strangers, uh, that eliminates a lot of stress and anxiety.

Peter Dudley: Yes, I absolutely agree with you 100%.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there any advice you would give a new caregiver? Like today’s the day they get that call that no one really wants to get, but it’s happening every day. Is there kind of a low hanging fruit they can do first in order to prepare themselves for what they have in store?

Peter Dudley: So the first thing I think, and this is this might be a little esoteric, it might be a little academic kind of feeling, but the first thing that happens is you feel like you are just you’ve had a dump truck of uncertainty just poured over your head. And a lot of people. Is it’s going to sound like I like I’m a callous or something, I think. But you have to embrace that uncertainty. You have to accept that uncertainty, that there’s just a lot that you’re not going to know for a while. Um, and there are a lot of things that are outside of your control because what happens when, when you have that huge deluge of uncertainty on top of you, the first thing you want is, is, okay, I want to know some things. If only I knew this, then I could know what to expect. And so what that does is that turns people into a situation where they start grasping for control of things when they really don’t have control, and that starts this chain reaction of behaviors that end up being more negative in result than positive in result.

Peter Dudley: So if right at the beginning you can accept, oh, there’s a lot, I don’t know, there’s a lot I’m not gonna know. There’s a lot I can’t control. Now what do I do with that? Um, that would be the very first piece of advice that I would say. And that’s not an easy thing. That’s the thing that you that might take a lot of journaling, Introspection. A lot of breathing. Um, you know, look out for your body. Uh, the other thing I would say is, uh, self-care is not about going and signing up for a whole bunch of new things. It is about nudging your steering wheel all the time, throughout the day, throughout every day to stay as centered as possible. Um, so if you feel yourself getting out of you feel yourself getting dysregulated out of sorts, take a moment to breathe. Take a moment to get outside, walk around. There’s plenty of neuroscience being, uh, being talked about right now that shows that those things really help. And when you can reregulate yourself, you’ll make better decisions. Those are the two things I would say.

Lee Kantor: Well, if somebody wants to learn more about your practice or get a hold of the book, is there a website? What’s the best way to connect with you or somebody on your team?

Peter Dudley: Yeah, there are. So there are two websites, Gray bear advisors.com. It’s GRAY, not GREY or Gray Bear coaching.com where. And the coaching site is where I’ve been blogging for four years, and so there’s a lot more content there. The advisor site is a little more directed to these are the services we provide. And, uh, and this is how to schedule us.

Lee Kantor: And then so they can learn more about the book there as well. Or they should go somewhere else for the book.

Peter Dudley: Yeah. No, they can, they can learn about the book on either of those sites as well. I have some other books as well, uh, if they’re interested in, in other stuff.

Lee Kantor: Well, Peter, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Peter Dudley: Thank you so much. It’s, uh, it’s been an enjoyable conversation. Thanks.

Lee Kantor: All right, this is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you next time on High Velocity Radio.