Intro: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio and this is gonna be a good one. Today on the show, we have executive coach with Creative Coaching and Actorvention, Kim Nielsen. Welcome.

Lee Kantor: Hi. Thank you Lee. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Intro: Well, I am excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about your practice. How are you serving folks?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, well, a little bit about me. I’m a certified personal executive and team coach. I partner with leaders across the globe to help them think more clearly, you know, communicate more intentionally and lead with greater impact. So I also work with leaders and we have simulations where we’ll come to maybe their office or do a workshop on site, and we’ll bring some actors along with us to simulate employees maybe handling different difficult conversations, maybe understanding more about a product or increasing their sales ability. Yeah. And so I do a little bit of both because my background is I was a stage actress in New York City for many, many years, which seems like many, many years ago. And I did stand up comedy as well. So I try to incorporate those threads into my current work.

Intro: So how did you come up with the idea of actually using actors, rather than just having kind of the workers that are in the workshop be the actors?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, because we needed to separate, we wanted to separate those from their own mindset, actually. And when you’re an audience member, you do take on the the learns in a different way. It’s like you and I watching a movie rather than being in it. We can it’s a different perspective completely. So we found that utilizing Actors can not only educate but also entertain and the. The education points as far as the learns that are absorbed are memorable. So it has really worked. It’s been a great it’s been a great format for this.

Intro: Now, can you share a little bit for the coaches that are listening when you’re going to try something that is this kind of outside the box and innovative, how did the first ones go or was it difficult to get buy in from your first clients when you were coming up with this idea, or did you just go boldly forward? Like, what was the early stages like? Because there’s a lot of coaches, especially that have great ideas that maybe are afraid to implement some of them.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, sure. Well, for me, being an actor, it was seamless. I knew it was something that I still wanted to carry on into my, my work as a, as an executive coach. And earlier on, I had worked with children at risk. I worked with women in domestic well, they were involved in domestic violence and shelters, and the way to reach them was through theater, allowing them to be able to express themselves and to have a voice. So for me, it was very seamless to try to bring this and explain this to a potential client. I also worked a lot in different hospitals in the five boroughs in New York, and I was an actor myself playing a patient. So I got to know the clinicians and together we ended up working cohesively, creating different, what can I say, different vignettes for third year med students. And so this became very effective for the for the med students. So I think the buy in is where you can show that this kind of work, this kind of practice, this role play is very effective.

Intro: Now in your work, do you have a niche or is it, you know, across the board, just leaders in general? Like, is there a kind of specialty or an industry that you work in?

Lee Kantor: Well, right now I’ve been in pharmaceuticals for the past 12 years. This is a space where I landed 12 years ago. And it was through actually through word of mouth. It was a friend of mine because I do work with different industries. We’ve I’ve worked in finance, uh, luxury retail, uh, worked with MSNBC and their employees. So I’ve done a big, I think a big variety of different type of work, different industries. Anyway. Um, but I’ve landed in pharmaceutical land 12 years ago and I’ve stayed because I, I realized that the leaders and I work with, um, Msls they’re medical science liaisons. They’re, they’re leaders on the edge. They are ready to leap off of the cliff. Their wingspan is huge. And I just enjoyed this group of people because they’re so anxious to learn more. And so, um, right now it’s leadership training, presentation skills. It’s working through challenges. When these msls have to meet their. They call them HCP. They’re healthcare providers where they need to speak to them about a drug. Um, there’s a lot of intensity that goes on with creating a rapport. So I think some of my theater background has come in handy with that as well. So right now, yeah, I’m in. I work with many different leaders, different industries, but I’ve landed predominantly in pharmaceuticals.

Intro: Now, are you working with individual high performers or is the organization bringing you in? You know, to handle groups or teams?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, both. Both. I work with different consulting agencies that outsource me to their clients. So it could be a facilitation for a leadership workshop and through that we pull through with some coaching afterwards. That contract can start with six months and then really evolve into two years or more, which is really been what it has been. It has evolved. Um, and also the leaders that I coach are leading other teams. So then they will refer me to their team members as well.

Intro: And is there kind of a specific area that they want to work with you on? Is it like typically like public speaking or things like that? Because, you know, I would think an actor has an edge or can give some good tips in that area. Or is it just just general business challenges? Like is is there a specialty in that regard?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, it’s both. It’s really whatever, you know, it’s the agenda of the client. So I want to create always a safe space for them to I have to earn their trust. And that has to be done in a short amount of time so that we can get to business. And so I want them to understand who I am, what the coaching process is all about. I want them to feel safe, to be able to have a voice and to ask any questions that they want. We’ll set up with a contract as to what do they hope to achieve by the end of our time together. And so we will comprise some goals and objectives, and we start to dip into some challenges. We build on the strengths that they already have and are working well. But how can they get more buck? How can they get more money from that one, that one strength that they have to build upon it and then to speak about their challenges?

Intro: Now, is there, um, do you see in high performers? Because I know in folks that aren’t maybe or don’t regard themselves as high performers, there’s a lot of self-sabotage, but do you see even at the highest levels that there are some maybe fear or self-sabotage?

Lee Kantor: Absolutely, Lee, and that’s a good point that you raise because, you know, we often talk about fear of failure, failing and failure. But in my experience, working closely with leaders, fear of success is often the quieter force shaping some of their decisions. Fear of success. I notice in many, many high achievers and sometimes they can’t recognize it themselves. It’s it’s an inner dialog and it could be a slow erosion. I’ve noticed it in myself too, over certain pockets of my career.

Intro: So what are some of the signs or symptoms of a fear of success? How do they show themselves?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, and that’s another great question. It’s it’s not dramatic. Doesn’t look dramatic. It’s it’s not self-doubt because most of these high achievers are very competent. They are very confident as well. They’re very good at what they do, and they’ve already achieved such amazing levels and and heights. So it’s an inner dialog that starts to take place. And it like, again, it’s not self-doubt. What it does look like is a hesitation right at the point of expansion, you know, and I recognize this pattern easily because it shows up in certain ways. This is when I can hear it, when a leader tells me that they’re staying busy instead of becoming more strategic in their evolution, in their journey and their growth, uh, they know that they have the capacity for more, but they stay a little bit smaller. They hold back. They even hold back their own perspective in a crowded room, when there are people that really want to hear their voice, it would probably shift the whole entire temperature, but they hold back and they are always, um, I’m sorry, I just wanted to add one other point. They’re always overanalyzing. Uh, they’re always looking for one more proof point before they can make a decision. So a slow, gentle spin starts and then a spiral takes place, and before you know it, they’re talking themselves right out of any advancement.

Intro: Now, when you’re working with somebody, I can see how this can come out in a coaching session by you being good at asking questions, where this can come about. Is there anything that the leader who doesn’t have a coach or doesn’t have you in their corner can see? Are there some signals that just the person right now listening could maybe, um, reevaluate some things that are happening? Like is there like, how does it show itself to a person who doesn’t have someone to point it out to them?

Lee Kantor: Yeah, it does, and it happens slowly and it’s an inner dialog. The first thing is, is it repetitive? Is every time that there’s some opportunity that you could step into that, that might be a little bit of a risk or a little uncertain. Is the same dialog taking place within one’s mind, which then becomes a fixed mindset, not a growth mindset. You’re closing yourself off. It’s also about visibility because when we think about fear of success, this is about people that want to grow and achieve and step into something bigger. But the moment they get close, this internal dialog that I’m talking about goes off. It’s like an alarm. So it’s a fear of what success can change. So they feel that visibility feels risky. If I stand out, I’ll be judged. I’ll be exposed or expected to keep performing at this level. Um, sometimes they feel that success disrupts familiar patterns. Uh, sometimes there’s identity conflict. Who am I if I no longer am the underdog or the helper or the the strong and silent one and the steady one. They also fear of losing relationships. It’s their entire landscape. It’s the people that they’re comfortable working with and for, and they’re respected and valued. Am I still going to have that same level of respect and feel valued? If I move on to something a little bit bigger? And there’s some of these old narratives, again, that that inner dialog that takes place, there’s messages from childhood that could creep up, you know, you’re not, this is too much. You’re too ambitious, you’re too confident, you’re overextending all of these voices that comes into play is obviously the inner dialog of one person. And once they start to hear this over and over again, this is where they can recognize and identify. I’m not afraid of failing. I’m already at this high level of achievement. I am afraid of succeeding because it will change many things that I’m very accustomed to and that I love and enjoy.

Intro: Well, there’s a song lyric that says, when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. But when you have something like these people do. I guess that’s where fear starts creeping in. How do you like what’s something actionable that a leader can do that you would help them with? If they’re showing some of these signs of fear of success? Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Great question again. Um, it’s, it’s starting small. It’s micro commitments to oneself. It’s creating movements without forcing it. Right. So this is not about pushing harder. Or once one identifies that they are in this container. It’s not about trying to break free and break loose of everything. It’s just identifying it first, embracing the emotions, understanding why this is even existing, but also asking yourself the question first, you know, if this goes really well, if I were to step into this new space, what am I afraid will happen next? What are those? What could happen next? You know, the answer is usually revealing because fear of success is rarely about the achievement itself. Again, it’s about what you believe. Success will cost you. Belonging, the balance, even the authenticity of it all, and the control. So the first thing is creating movement, right? You want to redefine success internally. If success equals pressure and performance, part of you will definitely resist it. But if success equals alignment, clarity, collaborative effort, contribution, it can become something a bit more approachable, something that you can grow and step into. So what I say to, to my leaders, I ask them two questions that they can ask themselves, what does success mean to me, independent of title or even the recognition of it? That’s number one. Number two, what version of success feels expansive rather than performative, you know? So thinking about expanding and sharing your abilities and this question can change their mindset.

Lee Kantor: The second thing is separate visibility from your ego. Visibility is not about arrogance. It’s not arrogant at all. Having the spotlight, this is where people are actually learning and growing from you and the insights that you provide. And it’s about your influence as well. Sometimes you just need to reframe it in a different way and saying, I’m not stepping forward. For me, I’m stepping forward for the work, for the team, for the organization. And then you want to normalize the discomfort of expansion. You know, growth stretches capacity. The stretch is not danger, it’s development. Again, this is a shift in the way somebody would interpret what this is. Instead of going right into that spin and spiral. And so instead of interpreting discomfort as a signal to retreat, try renaming it and just say, I’m expanding. This is just me expanding my you know, you have a wingspan. Fly, you know, take take flight, do this. So this is about the nervous system that’s sending all these triggers. So the mind is controlling what we end up doing. So we want to control the mind. Some of these questions that I just brought up, if you ask yourself the answers will be revealing. And so what you want to do is be able to identify the triggers, name the triggers, embrace the emotion and start to reframe some of the way you look at this. And what I just described now.

Intro: Is there a story you can share about maybe a client and obviously don’t name them, but maybe, um, explain what they came to you with, what their maybe self-sabotage was and how you were able to help them get to a new level or.

Lee Kantor: I did have a client and they are, um, I won’t even say what industry, but they are, they are a VP. They’re a vice president in their organization, obviously have already climbed the ladder, already has won the respect and has the integrity of the rule and is very, very good at what this person does. And the organization knows it, values it, trusts it, honors it. There was another step in which this person could take to go even further, and there was absolute sabotage. The saboteurs were running free in this person’s mind. And there’s this wonderful assessment that anybody could take, and I offered for this person to take it as well. And it’s called positive intelligence. It’s probably a ten question assessment test. And what it does is it asks questions. Um, and based on your answers, it will give you your top ten saboteurs. And some of them can range from being the judge to the pleaser to the high achiever. And this person actually came across as hypervigilant. They were one person that just always needed to check all the balances, check the boxes, and it started preventing this person from moving forward. So we so this became a pattern in the conversation. And so I quickly asked him to take the assessment. We looked at the saboteurs. We agreed that saboteurs are with us from when we’re children. They’re never going to go away. It’s just about managing them and squelching the voice and taking control again. And how do we do that? We have to look at the same situation in a completely different way.

Lee Kantor: Not the usual knee jerk reaction or going into the fixed mode or the problem solving, but a different way to look at this and exploring the situation. Think about different questions that one can ask yourself. What will I learn from this? How will I grow from this? Who can I, um, make an impression on and effectively make an impact on? If I were to take on this role through this work, this took some time because identifying, squelching the voice and then coming up with ways that obviously the client needs to come up with because it’s them that needs to do the work and live it. We come up with solutions and again, micro-commitments as to what they can do to make certain changes. And I always say small ships equal big change. And so at the end of it was like six sessions that we did have. And there were other things parlayed into those sessions. Um, he decided that I’m going to go for this. I’m definitely going to see if this is still available to me. He did. He got the promotion and he’s in a completely different atmosphere and he’s loving it. He’s absolutely loving it. And he’s bringing such I don’t know what to say. It’s such a, um, a capacity of, of wealth and expertise that he’s bringing to the organization and he’s really secure in where he is today. So that was a very successful story.

Intro: Now, is there any advice for the organizations that want to create kind of a culture of coaching within the organization where people feel safe kind of, um, being their whole self, like you described?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. Yes, definitely. And I think organizations have been making this shift. They’re understanding that this isn’t only about performance and outcomes, that this is about the integrity of the individual, this is about the authenticity of the individual. And everybody brings something to the table that when you put this fabric together, each thread is strong by itself, but even stronger when together. I think in organization, what they can do is create that psychologically safe space. When I say that, I don’t mean it just by being nice to people. It’s creating a space where you can be honest, where people understand that others are taking risks and they might not always succeed, but that’s also celebrated in that they’re stepping out of their comfort zone and they’re going into their learning zone. It’s also about real dialog, having these one on ones or having these group coaching sessions, whether it be internal or externally, so that people have a voice. We’re not all going to agree, but how can we come together for a common purpose? And I think also leaders can role model the way. You know, let others, let team members see that you’re human.

Lee Kantor: That there’s a vulnerability to you that share your story. Tell them what it took to get to where you are. Talk about some of those hills and valleys and some of those things that you needed to redesign. That just didn’t happen right off the bat. You know, how did you become this expert? Share. Share and also celebrate the learn. Celebrate the team members journey, not just the outcomes. You know, everybody’s looking at, um, you know, metrics and I know that this is a big part of, of an organization, how they function, how they stay afloat. But when you when you have people that feel safe to grow, organizations get more, I don’t know, they become more creative, more innovative. There’s more ownership and there’s more resiliency. So I would say to organizations is create a safe space, allow people to be who they are, you know, create that inner, that, not inner dialog. Bring it outward. Share your own story of vulnerability and the lessons that you’ve learned to achieve where you are today and celebrate people’s journeys. Not just what they bring to the table as far as outcomes.

Intro: Yeah, I’m definitely for more bringing humanity back to the workplace, more definitely more human interactions and less, you know, uh, optimizing for metrics rather than optimizing for humanity.

Lee Kantor: Yes, I completely agree with you. And when we talk about people that are and many are experiencing fear of success. You know, this isn’t, again, a question of if they’re capable. It’s it’s the question, are you willing to expand without abandoning who you are in the process? That’s the real work. It’s not becoming someone else. Um, it’s not faking it till you making it. It’s just growing safely into more of who you are.

Intro: Now, before we wrap, I just I’m really enamored with this actor vention component of your practice. Is there a funny story you can share about, uh, when your actors were working with the team and maybe something unexpected happened or something memorable or funny?

Lee Kantor: All the time. All the time. But I will tell you, uh, something that did happen. It wasn’t too long ago and it was in the pharmaceutical capacity. We have amazing actors that take on the role of these medical science liaisons? These Msls need to go into hospitals and speak with these key opinion leaders about the compounds of the drugs and the MOA. And my actors needed to understand so much about the drug. And if and if you know pharmaceuticals, there’s acronyms for everything. You could get tongue tied and twisted very quickly. And I would say that the actors are doing a fine job of, of being an MSL. Well, we got into a situation where I think the script just went completely out of the actor’s mind, and he just looked at the audience and he did something that we call a forum theater. He actually asked an MSL to come in and join him on stage, and he said, okay, I think you could do this better. And so the MSL actually sat in the seat talking to the make believe doctor, and it was brilliant. It went flawlessly. It was wonderful. Team members were clapping. As an actor, we learned even more. Everybody just had a blast doing this. So yes, these things do actually happen.

Intro: And then the impact becomes that much more powerful, right?

Lee Kantor: Does it’s very real. And it wasn’t really about putting anybody on the spot. That was an audience member. It was allowing them to be a part of the action, you know, to take on. And that’s what Forum Theater is sometimes is that I can be doing something. And then if I feel that you can add to it, I’ll point to somebody in the audience and they’ll come up and start from where I left off. And that’s exactly what happened. And so we did described Forum Theater to the audience. And they said, we said, you just participated in Forum Theater and you didn’t even know it. You did a fine job. They did an excellent job.

Intro: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, what’s the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Lee Kantor: Sure, it’s w w dot activation atorvention.com. I also have a cell phone number that, um, readily available, (718) 809-5087. I welcome any call to talk with leaders one on one or emerging leaders. I mean, we’re, you know, you don’t need a team in order to be a leader. We’re a leader. We’re leading ourselves every day. So I welcome any call.

Intro: Well, Kim, thank you so much for sharing your story. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Lee Kantor: Thank you. Lee. I appreciate this opportunity very much so.

Intro: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.

Kim Nielsen: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.