Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for High Velocity Radio.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of High Velocity Radio in this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Michelle Gale, who is the Managing Director of Michelle Gale PH D. Welcome.

Michelle Gale: Thank you Lee.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn about your practice. Tell us a little bit about the work you do.

Michelle Gale: Okay. I think I’m going to tell you the evolution of so that it makes some sense.

Lee Kantor: Okay.

Michelle Gale: Well, I became a clinical psychologist because. Because I grew up in a family with a father who was violent And an alcoholic. And, um, he gave my mother and I a very hard time. And, you know, as a kid, I mean, you don’t have language for this. You don’t. I mean, you can’t even really think about it. You just know something is not right here. And, um, so I grew up, and I learned, you know, that’s called domestic violence. And it’s a huge problem. And it happens around the world. And so, you know, out of the desire to keep other women and children from having to experience the kind of stuff my mother and I experienced, I became a psychologist. So I’m practicing along and I’m doing fine. I like it a lot. It’s a fit and, um, my body goes, goes haywire. I become unable to tolerate the simplest things, the food I’m eating, the, you know, the personal care products I put on my face, the clothes I’m wearing. I mean, you name it, my body went haywire. And it took a little figuring out. I mean, it was some some scary months there. And finally I got a diagnosis. This is called chemical sensitivity. And I’m reacting to chemicals that most of us just, um, will you go through your day and you neutralize these things. But I was reacting to them, which actually goes back to my father and his smoking. That’s that’s another story. So, you know, back then, um, psychology was done only in person. I mean, in order to be able to succeed as a clinical psychologist, you’ve got to be able to invite Strangers into your office and have conversations with them.

Michelle Gale: And all of a sudden. I’m like, um, you know. Do you smoke? Do you wear perfume, Cologne, aftershave? And it becomes impossible, you know? It just becomes impossible. So, um. Well, I mean, I had to spend some time getting a handle on what was going on with me. Physically. I had to calm myself down, um, my body down. And then a friend of mine suggested, what about coaching? And, you know, back then, coaching was often done remotely, whereas psychotherapy, you had to show up in person, you know. So, um, I transitioned to coaching and I have been coaching for, um, years now, like 13 years, 12 or 13 years. And. So at first I didn’t know, okay, what do I do with the skills and the perspective and all that I have as a coach? How does that translate? And um, and really I’m doing I’m working with a very much the same sorts of things as a coach as I did as a psychologist, except instead of working with often with diagnosable mental illness, you’re working with people who are more, you know, um, like, I don’t want to use the word normal. That’s a whole conversation, whether there is a normal. But but people who are functional, you know, highly functional, um, and, um, you know, have have issues to work out in order to be able to achieve their personal and professional goals.

Lee Kantor: So is your approach in helping them similar? Like do you go about the work that you do in a similar way, whether it’s psychology or coaching, or are they totally two different modalities?

Michelle Gale: You know, if you look from the outside, you would say you are doing the same thing, but they are actually very different modalities. One. One is a medical modality. It’s a form of medical treatment, but it uses talking. The other one is a learning modality. Coaching is a learning modality. You’re not treating anything. You don’t have diagnoses, you know. Um, and people sometimes like show up for coaching and they really need therapy or, or vice versa. And so I end up having to explain with some frequency. So in, in psychotherapy, um, you’re going back to the root of the problem, which is invariably in your childhood. And so you’re kind of, you know, your gaze is turned toward the past and you’re sorting out the experiences that you’ve had, who’ve made you you know, who you are today. Um, in coaching, you’re you’re dealing with the present and the future so you can deal with issues from your past as they show up in the present, you know, but but you’re not going back to the roots and of those issues and straightening them out, you know, kind of from the beginning. So, um, it really is two very different methodologies. One another difference is that, um, coaching is very targeted. I mean, people come in and you say, okay, what do you what do you want to accomplish here? You know, and you work toward those goals which sometimes evolve. But you have the the client has goals and you target those goals kind of relentlessly. Um, whereas psychotherapy is much more open ended, you know, and, um, something comes up and, and it seems like there might be something fruitful there. Okay. You go work on that for a while. So, um, the thing about coaching is that it tends to be faster. In other words, the coaching engagement is generally shorter because it’s very targeted. You know, you’re working on one or 2 or 3 very specific things. And when you achieve those things, then you’re done.

Lee Kantor: So are the outcomes kind of similar or are they like like if you spent um six months with a therapist. Would you get a similar outcome of spending six months with a coaching client, or is that probably not?

Michelle Gale: No. Probably not. I mean, six months of psychotherapy. So you’re probably deep in sorting out. Um, the, the, the early issues that you kind of bring with you through your life, um, and that color your perceptions and your responses and reactions wherever you go. Um, you’re probably in that somewhere in six months, you know? Um, six months of coaching. Um, you you’ve set some very specific goals. Like, you know, I want to get a new job. I want to get a promotion. I want to figure out whether I want to stay married to this, to this man or not. Because generally I work with women. Um, but not always. Um, just, you know, targeted goals. And you’ve worked in a focused way on those goals in six months. You know, depending on what the goals are. You you could very well be complete.

Lee Kantor: Now as a practitioner or both. Do you? Or do you still do the psychology or.

Michelle Gale: No. You know, I, I, um I let go of the psychotherapy and of course, now in this post-Covid world, psychotherapy is done remotely, just like coaching. But I’m kind of in a different, you know, I’m in a different world now. And, um, I, I, I just coach now.

Lee Kantor: So.

Michelle Gale: Yeah.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m just trying to understand now that you’ve, you’ve experienced both and you’ve had success doing both. Is there one that like, are you liking coaching more? Like, is it more fulfilling? Do you like having that? Oh, I help the person solve a problem and then they feel good, I feel good, and I move on to the next person. Or was it more rewarding to spend a lot of time over a long period of time with somebody to get to the heart of the matter?

Michelle Gale: That’s a hard question to answer, and I’m going to say that. Um, each has its pluses and its minuses. Um, I really liked them both. I mean, they’re very similar sorts of things to do. And the way I understand it, I mean, the way I experience it. Michelle Gayle coaching is, is looking through the eyes of a psychologist. I’m a coach who looks through the eyes of a psychologist, which is which is different, you know, than what most than what most coaches do. Um, so I bring. You know, I bring, um, I bring some things with me that that, um, other coaches probably wouldn’t have available to them and gives my work, um, a uniqueness, you know, um, I’m very happy coaching. I was very happy doing psychotherapy. You know, it’s kind of like. Do you do you prefer chocolate ice cream or do you prefer pistachio ice cream? Well, maybe it depends on the day. You know, I like them both.

Lee Kantor: Now, is your work in, um, coaching? Is that one on one? Like, I assume that your work with the clinical psychology with one on one? Or is there also kind of group and, um, cohorts and things like that in coaching?

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um, well, in both coaching and psychotherapy, you know, um, you can have individual, you can have couples, you can have a group, um, as a coach. Most of my work is individual, but, um, I’m actually, um, working on designing a a small group experience. Now that I’m looking forward to launching in the not too distant future that that I’m excited about. Um, so, um, I do individual and I will soon be doing group and, you know, as, as a psychologist, I did individual couples, I did family, I did group. I mean, um, it’s that’s a fun thing, you know, that that you can do different sorts of things. You don’t have to do the same thing day in and day out.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for other coaches that are listening now if they are never done group before? There are some do’s and don’ts of, uh, managing the needs of a group.

Michelle Gale: Absolutely. Solutely. I mean, because you can coach individually. That in and of itself is not necessarily is is is not going to make you a terrific group coach. Um, group. You know, the commonality in both of them, um, is that first and foremost, you have to be able to create a safe space for your client or clients. And this is true in individual and in group. Nobody will open their mouth, you know, if you can’t do that. Um, but group involves, you know, uh, a whole other set of skills about how do you, how do you balance among the people in the group, you know, how do you make sure No one fades into the woodwork and no one dominates that, you know? Um, it’s, um, it’s a whole other skill set, and there’s training and group coaching, just like there is an individual coaching. But before I think out of, you know, out of respect, um, for the work, you would want to get group training before you actually did it.

Lee Kantor: Now when you’re working a group or the is the group typically around a topic or a subject matter rather than just, uh, a general kind of type of coaching, like, are they there because they are all, um, you know, want to work on leadership skills or they’re all trying to get a job or something like that?

Michelle Gale: Um, there’s all different kinds of groups, just like there is all different kinds of Individual engagements. Um, I’m going to be focusing the group that I’m working on, planning, um, around a set of, um, like many lessons at the beginning of each group. And then we do we do individual exercises, and then we come together as a group and talk. Um, that’s the way I’m going to be doing that. But but there’s a lot of room for creativity there.

Lee Kantor: Now, any advice for the individual that maybe has never had a coach before? What are some do’s and don’ts when it comes to starting a new coaching uh, relationship with somebody.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Well you know item number one with coaching I mean if you go to a psychologist and they really are a licensed Psychologist. You got a whole licensed psychologist there. But if you go to a coach, coaching is a little more of a Wild West at this point. Um, there are coaching credentials, but there are people who coach who don’t have any credentials. So it’s a real good idea to start by making sure the person has a coaching credential. Often, especially in the United States, that would be ICF, the International Coaching Federation. But there are other, um, you know, worthwhile credentials that coaches have. And if you have a coach who’s put up a shingle and they don’t have any credentials, I mean, no, they don’t know what they’re doing. Don’t go to them. Um, that would be the first thing. Uh, the second thing is, you know, these things are very personal. Um, there. Someone could be a very competent coach and just. There’s no chemistry there. You know, like, the two of you don’t like talking to each other very much. Or, uh, the coach really doesn’t have the expertise you seek. So it’s a personal thing. You know, you go, you have a conversation, and you see what you think. I mean, is this a person in whom you think you can place your trust over time? Of course, you don’t start out with trust. You start out with, um, okay, I don’t know. But over time, does this feel like a person that you could come to trust? And if the answer is yes, then that’s a real good place to start.

Lee Kantor: Now, how do you manage the within the coach? Coach, I guess. Relationship. Um, how do you how does the person who’s being coached. Kind of. Decide, okay, this person’s asking me hard questions or is asking me to do things I don’t want to do, and I’m uncomfortable. But maybe that’s in their best interest, and maybe that’s the role of the coach to be pushing them and to, you know, not just being their friend and supporting you, you just but by, you know, if you came here to accomplish this, you’re going to have to do some hard things. And you’re a person who can do hard things. So I’ll, you know, help you get through it. But ultimately you have to do the work in order to get the result you desire. And how do you kind of know that? Oh, I, I don’t like them asking me to do hard things because it makes me I’m nervous about doing this and I’m scared. So how do I know that that coach is the right coach for me, or should I just pull the plug if I’m, you know, not feeling it?

Michelle Gale: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Um, so, you know, the coach doesn’t really, um, a good coach doesn’t set goals for the client. You know, you don’t ask the client to do stuff. You facilitate the client and deciding what is their next step, and you support them and being able to do it. I mean, you don’t like a good coach does not push clients. And if you did push clients, you would just lose them very quickly. I mean, you know, we it’s a collaboration. You you as a coach, you like walk alongside the client. You enable the client to do things that the client wouldn’t be able to do on his or her own. But it’s the client. It’s the client who decides. Okay, you know, I’m up to this. I’m ready to do this now. This is my next initiative. Not the coach who says, go out there and do that thing.

Lee Kantor: But isn’t there some point? There has to be some accountability. Isn’t some of the coach’s role to be the accountability partner, to say, hey, you said you were going to make these five calls. How many did you make? I made one. It’s like, well, you’re not going to get to where you want to go. If if the goal, you know, you say you’re gonna do five and you did one.

Michelle Gale: Okay. Yeah. I mean, there is certainly accountability and you’re in service of the client. So let’s say you said you were going to do five calls, but you did one. My response to that is not where are the other four calls. You’re never going to succeed like this. My response to that is And how come you didn’t make the other four? You know what all happened there? Unpacking it and looking with the client at what happened. How was it that you got through? One. I mean, was it that bad that you didn’t get to the other four? What? What’s going on? You know, and and you work with the client, you discover, you know, if there’s a block there. What? What’s the block? And how should we deal with it? But you don’t like, um, you know, give the client a scolding because they they didn’t keep all of their agreements. I mean, we do the best we can, you know, and if and people who show up for coaching, well, they need a little help. We all need help, you know, at times.

Lee Kantor: So when you’re working with a client, did you have early on, um, a sign that, hey, I think I’m good at this. I’m going to be able to pull this off. Like, were you getting kind of the positive responses that you were looking for or your clients were getting success quickly? Like, were there certain signals to you that was like, okay, I’m going to be able to make this transition from practicing clinical psychology to coaching. You know, I’m getting a lot of signs that I’m on the right track here.

Michelle Gale: Well, yeah, I mean, I would say the first sign was I knew how to do things they hadn’t taught me how to do yet, you know, and, um, that was acknowledged like by people who were training me. Oh, wow. You know. Um, so that was the first sign. Okay, this you’re going to be able to make this transition, you know? Um, and, and as far as my relationships with clients went, um, you know, I had to learn some things, um, really to transition. Um. So. So you take your cues from your clients, like, what are they needing? Um, but. Yeah, people. It’s an individual thing. I’m not. I’m not the coach for every person on earth. You know, just like you’re not everyone’s cup of tea. Some people really like you, and some people will go work with someone else. But, um. But I, as a psychologist, you know, I learned how to create a rapport with people with whom I had nothing in common. Really? I mean nothing. And because you have to be able to do that in order to help them, you know. And with coaching, um. That’s it’s it’s a little easier in coaching. Um, you know, it’s not that great a range, Perhaps of clients, but, um. Yeah. I mean, that’s an ability that I took from psychology that I, that I transferred over to coaching is knowing how to be with a person, you know, to help them articulate what they’re needing and. To help them, you know, go through a learning and growth process that will enable them to get there. And when people feel like you can do that and it’s something they genuinely want, well, they’re very happy. You know.

Lee Kantor: Now when you have a coaching engagement, how do you know when it’s done? Like do they just like you said, an objective early on and say, okay, I, you know, I’m doing coaching because I want to be promoted. So then you work on that and then they’re promoting you and they just say thank you, bye. Or is it something that, um, is a moving kind or the goalposts, constantly moving as people’s life, you know. Once you achieve something, you’re usually looking for the next mountain to conquer.

Michelle Gale: Mhm. Yeah. You know. Um. So let’s say you come to coaching because you want a promotion and, and you know, however many months were maybe a year later you get that promotion, you feel complete. Um, in you haven’t just gotten a promotion. You’ve also addressed all the issues that you needed to address that were in the way of your getting a promotion. You know, so you’ve you’ve experienced some personal growth alongside, um, achieving this objective that, that you would set for yourself. And at that point, you know, people make a decision mostly if you have achieved your goal in coaching, you feel like you’re done. You know that’s what you came for. And you know, you may circle around a year or 2 or 3 later and say, I’ve got myself another real challenge here. I could use some help or not. Um, uh, usually that’s the case. And on occasion, yeah, other things evolve and you decide, you know, now I’d like to work on this, but generally speaking, when a coaching client achieves his or her or her goal, um, they feel complete, and and they leave.

Lee Kantor: So. And then you’re both kind of good with it, and then you just move on to the next client. Is that it sounds it sounds coaching sounds more transactional than maybe therapy does.

Michelle Gale: Well it isn’t. I mean, it’s shorter lived, you know, and it’s more circumscribed. Um, I but the the the part of your question I really want to address, um, is this business about, you know, are you both good with that? And you go on to the next client. Um, I got some training, um, as a coach early on as a coach that said, basically, you know, don’t relinquish those clients easily. You know, keep them around as long as you can. And and I was confused because that’s not what you do as a, as a psychologist. You know, when when they want to move on, they move on whether they’re finished or not. Your job is to let go. Um, and, um, and I got some training early on as a coach that said, no, you know, that’s not what you do. And so I tried that, you know, a few times and actually it backfired horribly. You when somebody is ready to move on, you support them and moving on. You know, you don’t admonish them. You don’t try to manipulate them into staying. People have to do what they feel is right and what they feel is right in the moment. You know, and if you get in their way, it’s not going to go well.

Lee Kantor: So is there a story you can share? Maybe a success story that don’t name the name of the person, but maybe share an example of what the challenge they had when they started with you, and how you were able to help them get to a new level.

Michelle Gale: Yeah. Um. One of the things I see a lot of I see people who are in mid-career. Who are still behaving as though they’re kind of baby professionals, not full professionals, um, in that, um, they’re low on self-confidence and they look outside them for approval. In other words, they are still trying to prove themselves when actually they already have. You know, they have whatever credentials they need to do the thing they do. Um, they’ve been doing it for a while, you know, they have they have work. They have a boss. Boss isn’t like, oh my gosh, you don’t know what you’re doing. You should leave. Everybody’s happy with them. And they are still there, like exhausting themselves, trying to prove themselves. This this habit that they learned long ago. You know, as kids, as students, um, of kind of, um, putting the authority outside of themselves, um, as opposed to owning it, you know, taking ownership of, um, their own process, um, who they are as a professional and being able to evaluate themselves. And so I see a fair amount of this and I have to say, um, it’s pretty common among women, but I, I see it in men, too. And, um, and it’s not, you know, these are not people who just started doing what they’re doing a few months ago, in which case you probably are still trust yourself, and that’s the best module that makes sense. You know, these are people who’ve been doing something for years and they’re still trying to prove themselves. So, um, so when I work with someone who’s got that kind of, you know, dynamic going on, and I helped them get to a place where they feel like they know who they are as, as professionals, as as adults and as professionals, and they become more capable of evaluating how they’re doing for themselves.

Michelle Gale: And. Some are much less hung up about what other people see in them. You know, how how other people feel like they’re doing. I mean, not that you become cold and callous and uncaring, but that you’re capable of making your own choices. You know that, you know, you’re a competent professional, you know, and you kind of. You get yourself situated in that so that what happens is, um, instead of your attention being divided and part of you is working on whatever issue you’re working on, you know, for the company, for the client, whatever, um, part of you is working on that. And, and the other part of you is working on, oh my goodness, am I doing okay. What does he think of me? What does she think of me? You know, um, and when you let go of and you can be 100% fully present with the work, whatever it consists of. This is, um, you know, this is a real leap in, in what’s professional development, but it’s also personal development. Those things really aren’t divisible. Um, and, and that’s the sort of thing I often do with my clients. It’s one of the issues I work on. There are others, but that’s an example of, you know, when it works, um, that’s what it can look like.

Lee Kantor: And then once you can get through that, then that’s forever. That’s a, you know, once you can have that belief in yourself and then who you are and what you’ve accomplished, that’s a lasting impact, I’m sure.

Michelle Gale: Exactly. And that’s the thing I think, that people don’t always take into account when they enter coaching, but it’s so important, Written, which is I mean, you not only got whatever the specific goal was that you came to, to achieve. You developed yourself to a point where you know you’re playing a different ballgame now. And and as you said, that stays with you wherever you go. That’s going to go with you. And that’s, you know, that’s the thing that’s so compelling about coaching. I mean, that you’re not yes. You’re helping people meet their goals. And in the moment that’s super important to them, you know, but you’re also helping them develop as individuals. And that’s really why I do what I do.

Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you. Is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?

Michelle Gale: There sure is. Um. It’s Michelle Gale. Um, there’s a contact form on there, and I’m very happy to talk to people who aren’t sure if this is right for them, but are interested.

Lee Kantor: And Gayle is about Gayle.

Michelle Gale: Good point. So Michelle has two L’s. Am I h e l l e and Gayle is g l e shel Gayle p h d.

Lee Kantor: Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Michelle Gale: Thank you so much, Lee.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on High Velocity Radio.