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How To Sell a Wireless Cell Phone Store, with Tamer Shoukry, Wireless Dealerz

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Tamer Shoukry
How to Sell a Business
How To Sell a Wireless Cell Phone Store, with Tamer Shoukry, Wireless Dealerz
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Tamer Shoukry

How To Sell a Wireless Cell Phone Store, with Tamer Shoukry, Wireless Dealerz (How To Sell a Business Podcast, Episode 13)

There is more to a wireless store than just a storefront selling and repairing cell phones. On this edition of How To Sell a Business Podcast, Tamer Shoukry, owner of Wireless Dealerz, talked with host Ed Mysogland about how he got into the business and gave an overview of the industry. They discussed the flow of cellphones from dealer to consumer and from the US to other countries. Tamer covered how they make their money, margins, the challenges of retaining techs and managing inventory, why wireless dealers don’t usually get SBA loans, his advice as a business broker, and much more.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton Studio of Business RadioX® in Atlanta.

Tamer Shoukry, Owner, Wireless Dealerz

Tamer Shoukry, Owner, Wireless Dealerz

Tamer Shoukry AKA Mr. Wireless Ohio Wholesale had been a leader in the Prepaid Wireless Marketing , Sales and Fulfillment. He has assisted many leading Prepaid brands in Establishing Their Markets since 2006 such as Page Plus, Boost Mobile, Simple Mobile and H2O.

Sign up for any of these services and work directly with him and ENSURE  success in implementing these services. Tamer posseses the experience, know-how and connections to make these services increase a shop’s income.

Tamer started in the wireless industry in 2006 when he started in regional sales which allowed him to build a network of small and medium sized wireless retailers. He moved into selling in bulk to small carriers, started a repair business, and also started a wireless repair school.

In 2o15 Tamer started his wireless software company that serves independent wireless dealers.

Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram

Ed Mysogland, Host of How To Sell a Business Podcast

Ed Mysogland, Host of “How To Sell a Business”

The How To Sell a Business Podcast combines 30 years of exit planning, valuation, and exit execution working with business owners. Ed Mysogland has a mission and vision to help business owners understand the value of their business and what makes it salable. Most of the small business owner’s net worth is locked in the company; to unlock it, a business owner has to sell it. Unfortunately, the odds are against business owners that they won’t be able to sell their companies because they don’t know what creates a saleable asset.

Ed interviews battle-tested experts who help business owners prepare, build, preserve, and one-day transfer value with the sale of the business for maximum value.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced virtually from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® in Alpharetta.  The show can be found on all the major podcast apps and a full archive can be found here.

Ed is the Managing Partner of Indiana Business Advisors. He guides the development of the organization, its knowledge strategy, and the IBA initiative, which is to continue to be Indiana’s premier business brokerage by bringing investment-banker-caliber of transactional advisory services to small and mid-sized businesses. Over the last 29 years, Ed has been appraising and providing pre-sale consulting services for small and medium-size privately-held businesses as part of the brokerage process. He has worked with entrepreneurs of every pedigree and offers a unique insight into consulting with them toward a successful outcome.

Connect with Ed: LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:00] Business owners likely will have only one shot to sell a business. Most don’t understand what drives value and how buyers look at a business. Until now. Welcome to the How to Sell a Business podcast, where, every week, we talk to the subject matter experts, advisors, and those around the deal table about how to sell at maximum value. Every business will go to sell one day. It’s only a matter of when. We’re glad you’re here. The podcast starts now.

Ed Mysogland: [00:00:35] On today’s episode, I had the opportunity to visit with Tamer Shoukry. And Tamer is a business broker out of Ohio, and his claim to fame is Mr. Wireless. And it’s funny during our interview, I was thinking I was talking about wireless stores. And what I didn’t realize is just how deep that business goes. And what I’m saying is the resale market. I’m thinking we’re talking about new cell phone sales and products and services. But it was so much more than that.

Ed Mysogland: [00:01:17] So, it was a fascinating interview. And I’m certain that you will sit there and never look at another wireless store without going, “Wow, I had no idea.” So, my point is, it’s a good one. And so, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tamer Shoukry.

Ed Mysogland: [00:01:35] I’m your host, Ed Mysogland. On this podcast, I interview buyers, sellers, dealmakers, and other professional advisors about what creates value in a business and then how can that business be effectively sold for a premium value.

Ed Mysogland: [00:01:48] On today’s show, like I indicated in my introduction, I’m really excited about Tamer Shoukry, who’s known as Mr. Wireless. And so, you can imagine to get that moniker, that is a real special person. And this industry is not quite what you might think. You think of it as a retail operation, but it really is so much more than that. So, Tamer, welcome.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:02:16] Well, thank you. Ed, thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate that.

Ed Mysogland: [00:02:20] Well, I didn’t do your practice justice, so I was hoping that maybe you could talk a little bit about the work that you’re doing and your practice and your specialty.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:02:37] Awesome. Awesome. Well, in 2006, I started working for this nationwide distributor for wireless products. And, basically, what they did, they made me travel city to city, state to state, especially Indiana, to sell their product, which was Boost Mobile and Page Plus. And I had to go and flourish the markets. The market would not be familiar with these products, so I would move and I would spend weeks there until everybody starts selling this product, other retailers will start pushing the products.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:03:17] And that gave me a very, very strong stronghold when it comes to networking with small business owners who own retail shops, you know, corner shops, gas stations, all these mom and shop businesses, and bigger size retailers to introduce the products to them.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:03:40] I spent three years there and then I decided to start my own distribution company, that was in 2009. I became the master dealer for Boost Mobile, and number one distributor in the Midwest. So, we grew up from there. And then, I started selling devices in bulk to small carriers. So, smaller carriers will buy 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 devices per month, so I focused on this side of the business.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:04:14] Later on, in 2012, I started the first repair store in my area in Dublin, Hilliard, Ohio. And after one year, I started a cell phone repair school in Houston, Texas. And after that, I came back to Ohio. After three years, I came back to Ohio, and I started a little wireless software company that serves cell phone stores. So, I have a very good existence in the wireless industry in the country and overseas.

Ed Mysogland: [00:04:49] I would say. So, I guess the first place I would want to start – and I know this is a big ask – what’s the overview of the industry? Because like we were talking about before we got started, I mean, it’s not necessarily what everybody thinks that it’s just a retail operation. So, can you kind of give me a little bit of an overview on that?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:05:13] Sure. Yeah. The cell phone service or the telecom service is part of the infrastructure of any country and everybody is getting the service, any business, any field, medical, industrial, science, education. Everybody is using the wireless industry. And when it comes like this, you find yourself in a situation. There is always high demand on these kind of services and there is not enough people providing the service. You can imagine —

Ed Mysogland: [00:05:48] How is that? Is that true? I mean, how does that work? What you were saying was that there’s not enough people providing the service, I mean, what does that mean?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:06:00] Well, if you look at the country here, we have mainly, like, three or four major carriers – you know them – and they’re providing the airtime. And then, you have the dealers or retailers who are working under them providing the service. And then, you have the repair shops that do repairs for the devices when they have any problems or issues. And then, you have companies producing the devices, you know, Apple, Samsung, whatever. So, there is always high demand and there is not enough devices. I don’t think there’s enough devices in the market.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:38] Really?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:06:40] Yes.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:40] That was what caught my ear. I’m like, “Wow. There’s not enough devices in the market.” And as large as this market is, that’s a staggering statement. But you would know.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:58] So, we have the market now. And I guess, when you think of a wireless operation – because when you were talking a little bit about your practice, you are not only talking about retail operations, but you were also talking about in truck stops, gas stations, things like that, where those are respective profit centers – tell me what does that look like, the mechanics of that. I know from a retail store, but does the retail store then go and sell to the truck stop? Or is there some other operation that has the cornerstone on that type of business? You know what I mean?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:07:47] Very, very good question. This industry is not stable. It’s changing every other year. It’s changing dramatically. So, back in the days when I started, we used to sell in corner stores. We used to sell in barbershops. We sell the device activated already with airtime, so you just turn on the phone and it has minutes and you can start talking and texting.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:08:11] But, now, all these venues start shrinking. But we have something new or we have the repair shops. The repair shop will be independent, will be providing services like fixing devices, activating new lines, and doing more than that. With the high price of the devices now, it becomes more like a car dealership. And this is the real — in the business, when you buy broken phones, fix them, and resell them. Huge margin. It’s more than anything you can imagine.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:54] Now, I’m following you. So, where do you sell the repaired phones? Do you now turn online? Or are you getting foot traffic? Where is the source of that profit center?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:09:08] Okay. Perfect. So, if somebody who owns a store, usually the customer would walk into the store and they will ask do you have any affordable iPhone, for example, I don’t want to pay the full price. I said I have this model, I have that model. It sometimes will be like 30 percent off, 50 percent off from buying a brand new one. So, he would sell this, or he would sell them online, or he will export all the devices overseas for higher margin.

Ed Mysogland: [00:09:42] I get it. So, how do you – yeah. Go ahead. I’m sorry.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:09:45] So, you have some company that is selling, let’s say, 100 phones a month and some other companies selling 20,000, 50,000 phones for a month. You have this size and you have that bigger —

Ed Mysogland: [00:10:01] Sure. So, what’s a good size as far as revenue goes? What’s a reasonable operation? I mean, is that a half-a-million dollar revenue store? Or is that a $5 million revenue store?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:10:18] Usually, the independent one, the repair shops, they would be between 50 to mil. Some of them can reach mil. Especially if you’re in a busy city like New York, you can reach this number. The other bigger size companies, they do not do retail. They don’t face the end user. They would collect the devices, repair them, and then send them overseas for higher prices. And that margin will go up to $300, 400, 500 million.

Ed Mysogland: [00:10:57] Wow. So, the companies you just referenced, the ones that are buying up the damaged and subsequently repaired phones, they’re going around to all these shops saying, “Hey, I want to buy your damaged phones.” They refurb them and then sell them, right? That’s how that works?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:11:19] This one of the venues they do this. And the other way is they go directly to the carriers, because carriers will always — returns. And they will buy it through an auction. And the auction is not for everyone. You need to get certain certifications, like the R2 Certification, to be able to participate on those auctions.

Ed Mysogland: [00:11:45] So, what’s an R2 Certification? What does that mean?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:11:48] Responsible Recycling Certification. It’s very similar to the — but it comes to the electronics.

Ed Mysogland: [00:11:58] I got it. So, I’m based here in Indianapolis and so I know that there’s all kinds of retail operations that are selling phones, so that’s easy. But what about the folks that you just mentioned, the ones that are approved by the vendor to collect the phones, I mean, is that a big market? I mean, is there five people or 50 people that are buying up these phones?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:12:28] No. No. I would say the certified companies would be around maybe 30 certified. It’s not a big number. I can tell you the names of the owners of each company very easy because they don’t change that much. They don’t go out of business that quickly. I’d never seen any one of those companies dealing with the assets on the large scale getting sold. I never seen that.

Ed Mysogland: [00:13:03] Yeah. Those kind of margins, I’d hold them too. I wouldn’t sell it.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:13:09] There’s only a few companies that are the biggest companies. They’re going with billions of dollars. They got sold to private equities and entities like that. So, as I wanted to mention to you, it’s not only the small shop in front of you that one guy is working there. No. It goes way, way beyond that.

Ed Mysogland: [00:13:33] Sure. No, no, no. That’s where I was going with it, is that, it seems as though that’s the entry point but it just broadens out from there. And there is all kinds of money after just the retail side of the business.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:13:49] Yes. And there is also the companies that doing special type of software, companies doing finance technologies, and these guys are way beyond your imagination.

Ed Mysogland: [00:14:05] Well, circling back to the retail, I’ve always wanted to know how they make money. I mean, I know we’ve been focusing on, “Look, we’re taking damaged phones and we’re reselling them.” So, that’s a little bit of a profit center. But it would appear that the real profit is the guy that’s buying it, not necessarily the guy that’s selling the damaged phones. So, they’re getting a little bit of a hit, but it’s downstream that they’re making all the money. So, when I look at the retail operation, where are my profit centers? I know probably, you know, cases and things like that. But where else? Where am I looking at?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:14:57] When you go and you pay your bill, the monthly bill, this is profit. You get a margin. You get a small percentage. But by the time you will have more people coming to your store and doing the payments, that can pay your rent. For example, it can be, like, $2,000 or 3,000. When you are doing the repairs, you charge at least $50 up to $100 per device, so that is another thing. The accessories is another thing. In the accessories, usually you can make up to ten times your cost. So, you buy a charger for $2 and you sell it for $20. You bought this for $5 and you sell it for $25.

Ed Mysogland: [00:15:50] Yeah. Okay. So, the locations, the ones that I see, like when I’m looking at these locations here in Indianapolis, it seems as though – I don’t want to say they’re in the lower income, but it does appear that there’s a concentration in some of our lower income communities. I mean, conversely, where you would see like a Verizon not necessarily down in those same areas. Is that true or not?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:16:26] Yes. Yes. Usually, the lower income areas where you make most of the money. And it’s funny that you mentioned Indiana, because Indiana is very close to my heart. I started my career in Indiana. I consider Indiana as my school to understand the cell phone industry. And every city will have this one store that everybody likes to go there. And you had one, I guess, in the east side of Indy, and the store was amazing. Generation after generation, this is the spot. Everybody wants to go there. It’s not the nicest part of the town, but you know what? Everybody just go there.

Ed Mysogland: [00:17:09] Great service. I know what you’re talking about.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:17:11] But when it comes to the stores owned by the carriers, they usually go for the nicer areas. They usually go for prime locations. And the individuals do not like to open next to them because you cannot compete with the carrier. The carrier can hire the best executives, nicest looking sales people, the best devices. It’s not going to affect them. But if you’re an individual business owner, you cannot compete. You cannot compete. You want to be integrating with that company.

Ed Mysogland: [00:17:50] Well, that was where I was heading next. How does a company like this compete when you’re looking at online, you’re looking at BestBuy, you’re looking at where else can you activate —

Tamer Shoukry: [00:18:03] Amazon.

Ed Mysogland: [00:18:04] Yeah. And some of the bigger box stores. So, how does the mom and pop shop compete against something like that?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:18:12] I’m going to tell you a fact. It’s funny, when you go to one of the big boxes, you don’t get the service. You can grab the device, but no one is going to talk to you about it. No one is going to want to explain the plan. No one is going to tell you this is the most suitable plan for you. And if you have a problem, guess what? Nobody’s going to be able to answer your question. This is why they go to the repair shop to do the activation, to ask questions, and fix problems. And the same thing goes for the bigger carriers, they don’t have this technicality to sort issues with the device itself.

Ed Mysogland: [00:18:55] Yeah. I follow that. And I think one of the biggest challenges that I see, and we’ve tinkered around with a couple of them, has to do with repair. And I know you alluded to this just a minute ago that there’s a lot of profit baked into the repairs. And I have some children that have broken, you know, phones and iPads and so on and so forth, so I am well aware of the cost to repair it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:19:31] But one of the things that we continue to see is the difficulty in finding and then retaining help, especially with that. I think you can be easily trained on selling and understanding the product and the needs of the consumer. But a technician, that’s a different animal. So, how do I find them? How do I retain them?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:20:03] When it comes to technicians, this is the rarest type of employee you can ever — it’s very hard.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:13] No, I’m with you.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:20:14] And usually, if I’m new in town, I don’t know everybody in town already, I would go to Google them and they said phone repair. And these guys, they would spend a lot of money just advertising online. So, when it comes to Google Maps, MapQuest or whatever, it will show you he’s there. He’s there. There is no single town, big town in the whole country without two, three, five stores doing repairs now. When I started my first store, I was the only one in my whole town in Dublin and Hilliard area. So, now it’s different — very well.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:59] Yeah. And now what? You’ve got the major repair repair franchises. What, Cell Phone Repair? And I think there’s two or three others.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:21:09] CPR.

Ed Mysogland: [00:21:10] Yeah. CPR.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:21:12] Yeah. It’s funny, because these guys, they are not franchised really. It’s something – I don’t know how to explain it. The company used to be a franchise. CPR used to be a franchise. And then, they went to every individual store and they convinced them to change their sign and become under them. So, it’s Mike Repair, and everybody likes Mike. They will come to you and tell you, “Come join us. You will have certain kinds of benefits.”

Ed Mysogland: [00:21:44] I get it.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:21:46] I know the guy who started the CPR. He’s a friend of mine, I can say that. But when the company got sold a couple of times, now corporate is really separated from the store owners. It become a full franchise, really, you know.

Ed Mysogland: [00:22:08] Yeah. No, no, I get it. But circling back to the retention of the technician, I mean, is that just an economic thing or is there any other way to induce that type of person to stay with the company? Because if I’m looking at it as a buyer, I’m sitting here going, “All right. I got to figure out how I’m going to keep this guy.” Because what you just said is that the other shops are looking for a repair guy. And my guy probably has a target on his back. You know what I mean?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:22:39] True. This is a very important point, and from my experience, the best thing is to be generous to your technician. And, you know, you always have to have two or three of them. You can’t just depend on one.

Ed Mysogland: [00:22:55] That’s true.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:22:56] Once you have one technician, you hire somebody to be trained under him. Just in case something happened, he got sick, he had to travel, he got married, he got divorced, whatever, you always have a backup. You always have a backup. Somebody will get in and finish all the repairs. When I had my store, I had three. I had three all the time. Because if somebody got sick, we get heavy loads of repairs coming in, I always have enough people to do the repairs.

Ed Mysogland: [00:23:29] I get you. So, moving to financials, so are there various metrics or benchmarks that I could say, you know, if I have a 10 percent net profit margin, I’m doing great. If I have a 50 percent gross profit margin, I’m doing great. Are there any, like, ways to quickly look at a business and say, “Yeah. You know what? That’s a good target for me.”

Tamer Shoukry: [00:23:58] I would usually go and see how many repairs they do per month. I would see how many phones they sell per month. From my side, from my experience, I prefer the stores that sells more devices than the stores that repair more devices, because the biggest goal for you is to have the biggest sales. You need to sell more devices. So, it’s okay, you can do repairs, but you cannot focus on repairs only and neglect selling.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:24:33] So, I would like always to go to the store that’s selling the most devices in the whole area. You sell 100, I know exactly how much money you’re making. Because I would know he would at least make $50 to 100. So, if you sell 100, that’s $5,000. You sell more, you make more money. The rent shouldn’t be more than $2,000 under any circumstances. Some guys, they will go with more, but it will be always a big risk.

Ed Mysogland: [00:25:07] I get it. So, I guess as it relates financially, most people need their cell phone, so my question originally was centered around, you know, is the industry correlated to disposable income. And I think just from our conversation thus far, I can tell that’s probably not the case. There is no correlation to any part of the economy because people are going to need some means to communicate. Right?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:25:49] — percent true. And nowadays, with a device costing you up to $2,000, it’s not only people who do not have money, they go and fix the phones. I had a lawyer used to damage his small tablet all the time and come and spend $300 because all the documents that he has on these tablets.

Ed Mysogland: [00:26:13] Oh, sure, sure.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:26:14] Every time, every day he can buy brand new. But with the documents he has there, it’s worth his life. His career is only in this small device. He will come and spend $300 to fix it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:26:29] Sure. So, one of the challenges that I continue to see is this business as well as a business that is dealing with repairs as well as retail of new, and that’s inventory management. I got to imagine that it is a real challenge in this industry, isn’t it, to keep track of your inventory? Or is there like a universal point of sale type inventory management service or no?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:27:06] There are. There are. It would work for smaller shops. And there is software for wholesalers. But from the bottom of my mind, there is no real solution until today. I’m not saying this to bash the companies that designed those software, but you can do better than this. It can be more in details than what we have now. You can use QuickBooks like any other business. But when it comes to tracking your inventory, there is some software being used now, but I am not satisfied with the results.

Ed Mysogland: [00:27:49] No, no, I get it. So, who buys these things? Because I know you’ve sold a lot of them and I’m just kind of curious to know what does that person look like or does it vary?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:28:04] It varies. You can be a mom. You can be a dad. You can be a teacher. You can be a — you can be a government agency. You can be individual who is sending these devices, selling overseas. So, everybody is — but who’s buying more? You can ask me who is the most who’s bought more?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:28:27] And I would answer the question honestly. If you have any market with lots of immigrants, they would buy these devices more than anybody else, because the relatives back home in their countries, they’re going to ask them, we need devices, we need iPhones, we need Samsung, we need this, we need this. And there is no place in the whole Earth is cheaper than the U.S. when it comes to devices. So, the demand is crazy high.

Ed Mysogland: [00:28:59] I get it. That’s interesting. I mean, market multiples, do they vary in the industry or they stay fairly consistent? Because I got to imagine the risk remains the same, so I would assume the multiples fairly consistent or no.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:29:24] I would say it’s different between cities. Because if you’re new, it’s not the same thing. If you are in Kansas or Arkansas, you have less people, so your ability to sell devices is less than if you are in a bigger city.

Ed Mysogland: [00:29:46] So, multiples increase based on the density of the population in the area.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:29:55] Of course. Of course.

Ed Mysogland: [00:29:55] I get it. No, I mean that makes sense. So, as we talk about selling these things, is it a normal lending environment? I mean, it’s just based on cash flow and it works? Or is there a special way that these things get financed given the inventory fluctuations and such? I would assume it’s just like any other business. If it can support the cash flow, you know, you’re in business. Or is that not the case?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:30:31] Well, I would say, the biggest chunk of the business done cash upfront. And I was involved in one of those companies that provides a tool for financing for the independent store owners. So, the software will go and check the background of the person who’s buying the device. It will give you colors: red, don’t give him the device — it’s up to you; and green, go ahead and you can sell him, you can trust him, he has a good credit background, and he has the ability financially to give you the payment every week, $50, $20, whatever you agree on.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:31:17] But I would say cash is the biggest chunk of what’s happening here. Everybody just go and pay upfront. The financing comes from the bigger companies. If you go and buy from Apple, that’s brand new, expensive devices. They have their own financing and they make it easy.

Ed Mysogland: [00:31:37] Okay. But as far as buying the company, is it just like any other SBA lender? You know what I mean? From that standpoint, it seems that this is just based on cash flow. I would assume based on what we’re talking about, I would imagine my cash flow to revenue ratio has to be 20, 25 percent. That’s two-and-a-half, three multiple, which then takes me, as I look at it, to a bank. I mean, that’s plenty of cash flow to support some reasonable debt. What I’m trying to establish is the risk associated with, if I’m a lender, where is my risk in loaning that money, aside from the borrower him or herself? You know what I mean?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:32:40] I’ll tell you something, when it comes to small businesses, like individual stores, I never got any lender involved, just usually cash. But talking about bigger companies, the multiple million dollars, then it’s a totally different story. It’s a totally different story.

Ed Mysogland: [00:33:00] But if I come in some of the lower income areas, you had already indicated that the buyer pool tends to be —

Tamer Shoukry: [00:33:17] Competition.

Ed Mysogland: [00:33:18] Yeah. So, there is consolidation, so they understand it. But as individual buyers, so seller financing – because I’m sitting here, let’s just say it’s $200,000, would you risk 200,000 to buy this business that a lot of which is cash? You know what I mean? It’s almost like a food and beverage business. And to me, this seems harder to track my cash or no?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:34:00] True. This is why I mentioned that most of the buyers will be people from the industry itself. He can be somebody from outside the certain city or town. It can be the guy next door who always wanted to eliminate the competition. He would say, “Okay. I’ll buy it. I’ll take this place.” And usually it goes cash. They pay everything cash. If they have terms that’s between the buyer and seller, I do not recommend that at all because the consequences might escalate to a —

Ed Mysogland: [00:34:39] No, that’s great advice. Like I said, I didn’t anticipate that coming out of your mouth, but it totally makes sense. So, since we’re bumping up on time, the last question I asked every single guest, and you being the expert in the industry, what’s the one piece of advice that you would give, I guess, business owners in the wireless retail or the wireless industry? What piece of advice would you give them that would have the greatest impact on their value and their ability to sell?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:35:15] Do not buy a business based on your emotions. Never. You have to always —

Ed Mysogland: [00:35:21] Okay. So, that’s the buyer.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:35:24] Yes.

Ed Mysogland: [00:35:25] So, what about the seller? How is the seller? What does the seller need to do in order to make this business saleable?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:35:33] Your business has more value than what you think. Your business has more value than you think.

Ed Mysogland: [00:35:43] So, how do I get that out? Because I’m certain there are plenty of sellers that just heard that and say, “Tell me more. How do I get more money out of my business?”

Tamer Shoukry: [00:35:55] Hire a broker, like me. And I will go to your finances and I will make sure to represent your business in a better way than if you try to represent by yourself, based on numbers, facts.

Ed Mysogland: [00:36:14] Yeah. Yeah. I got it. So, the quality of your financial statements, even though you’ve got a bunch of cash that is flowing in and out of the business, that will determine whether or not you’re going to be able to sell at a premium value.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:36:32] Yes.

Ed Mysogland: [00:36:32] Perfect. So, Tamer, what’s the best way we can connect with you and how can people find you?

Tamer Shoukry: [00:36:38] You can search my name on Google or you can find me on Facebook at Tamer Shoukry. You can find me on Instagram, @cellphonesinbulk. Or you can call me at 614-226-2723.

Ed Mysogland: [00:36:56] Okay. Well, Tamer, I got to tell you, I didn’t know what to expect out of this. I’ve always seen it. I’ve always heard that the business was lucrative. I just had no idea that there was so much more to it than just a storefront. So, thanks for the education. I’m certain everybody’s kind of in the same camp with me of like, “Wow. What a crazy business. And, boy, that might be a nice little business for me to buy.” So, thanks for coming on and telling us all about that.

Tamer Shoukry: [00:37:33] You’re welcome. And thank you so much for inviting me.

Outro: [00:37:36] Thank you for joining us today on the How to Sell Your Business Podcast. If you want more episodes packed with strategies to help sell your business for the maximum value, visit howtosellabusinesspodcast.com for tips and best practices to make your exit life changing. Better yet, subscribe now so you never miss future episodes. This program is copyrighted by Myso, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

 

Thriving After Trauma: An Interview with Karen Nowicki, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting

by

Karen Nowicki
North Fulton Studio
Thriving After Trauma: An Interview with Karen Nowicki, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting
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Karen Nowicki

Thriving After Trauma: An Interview with Karen Nowicki, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting

What do you do when trauma hits you without warning? How do you recover personally? How do you hold it together for the clients you work for in your services practice? How do you get to a point where you can thrive again? Karen Nowicki, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting, joined host John Ray to discuss the trauma of her husband’s suicide attempt, what she did to cope with her own mental health challenges that followed, her decision to share her journey in detail, how she managed her two businesses through those difficult times, and much more.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Phoenix Business RadioX®

Since 2017, Phoenix Business RadioX® has successfully launched, promoted, and produced over 1500 podcast episodes covering topics from BioScience Careers to High Tech Lending …and just about everything in between.

Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram

Karen Nowicki, Owner, iNudge LLC, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting

Karen Nowicki, Owner, iNudge LLC, Phoenix Business RadioX® and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting

Karen Nowicki is the Owner of iNudge LLC, the parent company to Phoenix Business RadioX and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching & Consulting.

Executive Leaders and Business Owners hire Karen to accelerate their intrapersonal / interpersonal relationships and harness the power of a growth mindset.

Karen has spent over 30 years in corporate, small business and educational leadership roles and for the past 10 years has held an impressive private client list that includes c-suite leaders in a variety of industries, including: technology, medical, higher education, hospitality, and finance.

Karen is an impeccably trained Integration Coach with certifications in communications, facilitative leadership, mindfulness, trauma integration, tao healing, talent management, and strategic planning.

LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:04] And hello, everyone. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. And I am delighted to welcome Karen Nowicki. Karen is with Phoenix Business RadioX and Deep Impact Leadership Coaching and Consulting. And just a way of introducing Karen, what do you do if, not only in your professional services practice but in your life, trauma comes right out of the blue and drops right in your lap? And how do you hold it together and recover? And that’s what we’re going to be talking with Karen about today.

John Ray: [00:00:40] Karen is a successful author, speaker. She has her own coaching practice, as I mentioned. The name of that practice is Deep Impact Leadership Coaching and Consulting. Karen’s been an expert guest on regional television and radio shows. She’s a regular contributor to many print and online magazines, blogs for both business and education. And where I intersect with her proudly is that she and I are colleagues in the Business RadioX Network, and Karen’s the much smarter studio partner than I am, but she runs the Phoenix Business RadioX Studio. And Karen Nowicki, it’s just a pleasure to have this time to chat.

Karen Nowicki: [00:01:29] I’m excited to spend time with you, John. It’s usually a quick text or a phone call, how are you doing this, what’s going on here, between either one of us. And we have yet to ever meet in-person, but we’ve got to change that in 2023.

John Ray: [00:01:42] I look forward to that. Yeah. I want to correct that. So, let’s put that on our list for 2023. I like that.

Karen Nowicki: [00:01:52] Did I say ’23, too, I think? I meant 2023. If I said ’22, I can’t keep up.

John Ray: [00:01:58] Well, let’s get each other the right year. I’m not sure I said the right one. But I gave a little bit of an overview of you and your work. But like me, you have two different professional services businesses, so give everyone a little bit of an overview of that work.

Karen Nowicki: [00:02:16] Sure. Again, thank you for having me be with you and your listeners today or viewers. I have been referred to, for years, as the ultimate problem solver and solution finder. For the past 24 years, I’ve acquired advanced training and certifications in executive leadership, trauma integration, Tao Healing, and then organizational and personal development.

Karen Nowicki: [00:02:40] And it just made sense that while I was running my coaching practice – which you’ve mentioned a little bit – almost six years ago to open Phoenix Business RadioX and run that alongside it. And I’ll talk about why that was so important in a moment.

Karen Nowicki: [00:02:54] My greatest strength is the ability to help people understand what they need, what they want, and how to have that come together on a consistent and daily basis. Most of the time, it’s telling people and showing them how to get out of their own way. And I know the business of business as well as the business of people. And so, let’s face it, in any business, we’re always dealing with people.

Karen Nowicki: [00:03:19] And so, it just made sense, Business RadioX was a wreath on my door and an opportunity for me to kind of elevate my exposure as a leader when it comes to personal and professional development. And I haven’t ever looked back and regretted the decision. It’s been hard to run both businesses at times, especially these last couple of years. But I’m doing it and I’ve got the right team to help me now.

John Ray: [00:03:45] Yeah. That’s terrific. I’m curious for you – and we’ve talked a little bit about this, but for our listeners – why later on Business RadioX specifically, and that work among all the other things you could have done next to your coaching practice?

Karen Nowicki: [00:04:03] It’s a great question. I think it’s an important one for you and I when we encourage people to take on podcasting or B2B radio in their businesses, because not everybody understands why at Business RadioX we do the things that we do it or the way we do it.

Karen Nowicki: [00:04:18] So, six years ago I had sold a business, and it gave me the leverage to hire a coach and think about how do I want the next layer of my career to be. And, also at the same time, gave me the leverage to open an auto mechanic shop for my then husband. So, I went to my coach and I said I continue to work with professionals. These were attorneys, doctors, successful entrepreneurs and business owners, typically highly visible in their industries and was coaching them at a very soulful, personal, and professional level. And yet they weren’t referring me like other people were, the general laypeople.

Karen Nowicki: [00:04:58] And I knew that I was making a huge difference in their lives because I was always the one they were texting saying, “Thank you. I finally solved that problem at work. I finally hired the right teammate. My husband or my wife and I are getting along better. I had you sit on my shoulder when I had those conversations.” Like, all that acknowledgement told me that they were stepping into their life and leadership in an incredible way and I got to be the catalyst and the help to kind of either nudge or shove them into that depending on what they needed. And yet they weren’t referring to me.

Karen Nowicki: [00:05:32] And so, my coach said, “Well, go ask them. These are people that you’ve gotten to know and they really care about you. And clearly, you’re making a difference.” Their feedback to me, John, was, “Well, why would I tell anybody you’re my best kept secret. Like, you’re my secret weapon.” And they weren’t interested in telling me.

Karen Nowicki: [00:05:47] And that was difficult for me to hear because at that time my coaching practice was referral only, which is a mistake, but it’s how I built it. I didn’t understand marketing and advertising nor did I want to do it. And I really have never liked the sales part of things.

Karen Nowicki: [00:06:06] And so, my coach challenged me to maybe consider a podcast. And at first I thought that was an awful idea. I quickly, within two hours of research, came across Business RadioX. And I could just tell that they were or we are doing things differently. It’s about the story and shine the spotlight on someone else. So, I thought, I can do that.

Karen Nowicki: [00:06:28] And within a week, was in Atlanta visiting with Stone and Lee, following them around and paying attention to what they’re doing. And by the time I flew home about four days later, I had made the decision to open Phoenix Business RadioX so that I could show up among our leaders in the Metro Phoenix area, have conversations about what’s important to them, their industries, their verticals, their decisions, their initiatives. And in exchange, have an opportunity to get to know them at a really deep level. And then, in turn, be able to say, “Here’s what I do outside of Business RadioX. If you know anybody who’s struggling with personal growth or professional development or leadership or finances, whatever it is, have them have a conversation with me.”

John Ray: [00:07:13] You know, it’s amazing what you can do with a mic, isn’t it? I mean, that’s terrific. Well, I want to get right into your story, Karen, or the reason we’re doing this show in terms of the trauma that hit you and your now former husband, Mike. I want you to share whatever piece of that you want to share and how you want to share that story.

Karen Nowicki: [00:07:38] Yeah. It’s not an easy conversation to share and it’s also not very easy for people to listen to. Back in 2019, my then husband attempted suicide and survived gunshot wound through his head. It was a total surprise to me. We closed his auto shop and we unraveled the mystery of how did this all happened while he was lying in the trauma intensive care unit for the first month of his recovery. I came to see that there was addiction and gambling and just really a lot of mental health challenges that weren’t as evident as they were. We had been together for 15 years, the love of my life.

Karen Nowicki: [00:08:27] And I struggled to get up everyday. I struggled to help our then 12 year old kind of make his way through it. I have two older kids as well who very much loved and cared for Mike and they were trying to make sense out of it. They were living out of the house, already adults.

Karen Nowicki: [00:08:45] And being so visible in our community already because I have had Business RadioX up and running for then almost two-and-a-half years, and the way in which I show up in social media even before this, is kind of I’m visible, here are the situations, the struggles, the challenges that I go through, I decided that I was going to tell the story while it was happening.

Karen Nowicki: [00:09:10] That was, I’ll say, a divine download. I woke up one morning and what was on my heart and in my head was you will tell this story as it’s happening. And I thought, “Oh. You can’t ask me to do that.” I was in trauma. I was in crisis. I wanted to just pull the sheets over my head and just disappear. And yet the next thought that I heard was, “I’ve prepared you your whole life for this.” And I thought, “Well, that’s a crappy way. Why would that ever be part of my story?” Because I pride myself on knowing people so well, and helping people, and getting really clear about soulful self-reliance and deep impact leadership, how could I end up with a partner who went to bed with me every night, that was the love of my life, end up wanting to take his own life?

Karen Nowicki: [00:09:59] So, long story short, Mike and I are no longer together. He wasn’t willing to or wasn’t capable of, I think is more more appropriate to say, to do the work it required to be a healthy whole unit between he and I and then, of course, our son. And it just made more sense safety-wise, mentally, physically, emotionally for Ivan and I to be on our own. I do know that he is now with his family in a different state. They’ve chosen not to have anything to do with us, which is heartbreaking. And at the same time, I continue to recover from that, all the while keeping both businesses open and being very vocal about my own mental health journey throughout this chaos and trauma and that of my sons.

John Ray: [00:10:46] Wow. A lot there. Let’s talk about the processing, the idea that all this was going on with your life partner and you had no idea. I mean, in terms of just the mental health struggles and then the financial issues and other issues that you talked about that were going on, how did you process just getting hit by this out of the blue?

Karen Nowicki: [00:11:16] I would like to say people will tell me that I processed it really well. And my first reaction is, “No. No. I didn’t.” When we fall into trauma or chaos, we go into the fight, flight, or freeze, or fawn mode and we’re now using a different part of our brain just for survival. So, a lot of it really, John, is a blur. Even though I was writing daily on our CaringBridge page and then, of course, on social media, it was really a therapeutic opportunity for me to try to make sense out of everything.

Karen Nowicki: [00:11:47] Mike and I were both building our businesses at the same time. Phoenix Business RadioX was brand new, so is his auto shop. And one business alone for a family is difficult in those early startup days, you and I both know that, let alone two. So, while I felt like we were grounded and corrected – excuse me – grounded and connected, he had his set of challenges and expenses and I had mine. And so, I knew he wasn’t feeling well physically. I was oblivious to – because he wasn’t willing to share it – what was going on mentally.

Karen Nowicki: [00:12:21] And I think that’s the most important call out here for our listeners and our viewers. Not everybody, one, knows when they’re struggling mental health-wise. And even if they do, there’s so much stigma and so much fear about saying to somebody I am not well, I am not doing well and I need help. Like, for Suicide Prevention Month and even just mental health awareness, we always say I’m there for you, be on the lookout for clues and that sort of stuff.

Karen Nowicki: [00:12:53] And I will tell you, I think we are very good at hiding that stuff, which is part of why I’ve told my story so vocally and so visibly, because my story is no longer Mike’s story, nor was it even when it was happening. I had to deal with my own mental health. And so, I just got really good about asking for help and being very candid, “I feel like crap right now” or “I don’t even know which way is up.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:13:20] And always continue to have faith. I said to you earlier today before we got on the interview that the universe always has my back. And I believe that for all of us. If we can hold on to hope, we can get through anything. And I always knew that at some point beyond that threshold of chaos and craziness and be, fortunately, where I am today, even though the fog has just finally lifted the last couple of months.

John Ray: [00:13:44] Well, I want to dive into that a little more, the universe has my back. What are the beliefs that underlie that statement that you have?

Karen Nowicki: [00:13:55] For me, it’s faith-based. I don’t attend a church any longer. I grew up Catholic and have always been a very soulful, spiritual person, very led by a belief in a higher power. And even though life has proven to give me challenge after challenge, business and career, and marriages, and even challenges with kids, and health, and all that stuff, I continue to give that over to a higher power. And when I say the universe has got my back, I don’t know that it matters what faith we have or if we have any faith as long as we believe that there is something better on the other side of a challenge.

Karen Nowicki: [00:14:37] And so, every time I have a challenge, small, medium, or large, I just know where’s the growth, where can I learn more about me, learn more about me and how I show up in the world that I can take into this next iteration of where I’m going after, this stuff is behind me.

John Ray: [00:14:56] So, when all this happened with Mike, you decided pretty quickly that your response needed to be journaling, sharing what you had. And we’re not talking about private journaling. I mean, we’re talking, really, about online journaling. You can explain more about what I mean by that. But what was the genesis of that decision for you?

Karen Nowicki: [00:15:21] Again, I will tell you that it wasn’t my decision. I know that might sound crazy. But in my meditation practice and the way in which I just am very soulfully self-reliant, I listen very deeply to what my soul needs and how I’m supposed to show up in the world. So, I know that gets a little bit woo, but there you go. So, very early on within three or four days, again, I woke up and I just knew that I was being called from a higher place to journal and share publicly what was going on for me. And it was a survival mode.

Karen Nowicki: [00:16:04] My son said it recently that it was a way for me to survive and thrive versus a way for me to story tell and get attention. It doesn’t fit with everybody’s narrative. You know, there’s a handful of people, my family included, thinks I did it for attention and did it just to further my career. If that were that, I literally would have kept the sheet over my head, put a padlock on the door, and said, “I’m done. I’m out.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:16:30] And so, I asked three friends to read every entry that I wrote for CaringBridge – that, again, was repeated on social media – so that they could look at it through three layers. One, am I taking care of myself in this? Are you reading it to where you can hear that this really is me trying to find my way through the chaos and make understanding of what’s happening to the degree that I can?

Karen Nowicki: [00:16:53] Two, is it being respectful of Mike and his family and his journey? Because at the time, while I wanted us to be together forever, that was the plan, I never would have guessed that it would not have turned out that way. And yet I knew that at some point he would likely be in a position to be aware that I told the story as it was happening. So, was I respectful to him and his family and his journey? And then, the third piece was, if there could be a nugget for other people who are watching and listening and reading, is that opportunity there for someone to have a takeaway?

Karen Nowicki: [00:17:21] So, all, but I think one journal over the course of probably nine months journal entries, was there ever a sentence that came back? And my very best friend, Julie, came back and said, “This is the only sentence that I’m not sure where you’re coming from on this. It sounds more like ego than anything else. Can you reword it or pull it out?” And with that, I did. That was the only time. The rest of the time it was, “Oh, my gosh. Karen, this is what I’m getting from it and I know this is going to make a difference. And I can hear you getting better and healing as you go through this.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:17:49] So, less of a decision, John, and more of a calling. Which, I think, again, our viewers and our listeners for this particular show, if they’re entrepreneurs and business owners, even solopreneurs, we don’t come into our businesses lightly. We come into it, I think, oftentimes, because we have a calling to do something that’s bigger than us.

John Ray: [00:18:12] Right. Yeah, for sure. Now, this is the part of the story that I’m not sure that I’ve heard before, that you had three trusted friends that knew you quite well, that they sound checked it, I guess maybe is the word, right? They sound checked to make sure that the Karen they knew was speaking.

Karen Nowicki: [00:18:37] Yeah. And this was well before any of the immediate family started attacking and wanting to manage what I was saying and would rather have me be quiet. I just knew that I was fairly visible in our community anyway already. I’d already talked about post-partum depression when my kids were younger, and changing careers, and what is it like to be fairly visible and that sort of stuff, getting older, those kinds of things, even body image and those choices, and how I can grow to love myself more.

Karen Nowicki: [00:19:18] So, knowing that I had already been through all that and sharing in that way, I knew I needed to have people, not fact check, but just sound check and make sure that I was doing it from a place of, first, caring for myself; second, being respectful of Mike and his journey, wherever that would take him; and third, can people hear it from a place of what’s in it for me.

Karen Nowicki: [00:19:39] And it’s proven to be one of the most amazing things I’ve ever done. I hear, still, from people three years later how much I’ve changed their life or the lives of their loved ones. I would say, and I think only firefighters and medical professionals get to say this, I know there are at least eight people whose lives I’ve helped save because they either read or someone read to them the accounting of what I was going through as a dear casualty of somebody who wanted to leave this earth before their time.

John Ray: [00:20:15] I would love it, Karen, if you would share one of those as an example. You know, obviously, we’re not going to mention names or anything like that, any identifiers. But if you could just share an example of one of those stories.

Karen Nowicki: [00:20:30] I can. So, we’re here in Arizona. I had a high school friend reach out through Facebook and mentioned that she was going to be in town – this has been, oh, probably a-year-and-a-half ago – and would I be open to coffee. And we don’t know each other well. We see each other at reunions and, of course, on social media, thumbs up, or a little like this, like that. And I said, I’d love that. And so, I waited at the coffee shop for her to arrive maybe three or four minutes early. And as she’s walking from the parking lot, we smiled at each other.

Karen Nowicki: [00:21:00] And as she’s getting closer, I watch her face change and she starts to get teary eyed. And I was not prepared for that. We gave each other a big hug and she said, “I’m so grateful that you’re sitting down and meeting with me. I need to tell you how much you’ve impacted my life and the life of my fiancé.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:21:18] Now, we’re not spring chickens. We’re celebrating our 40th high school reunion this year, so we’re in our late 50s. And so, this is somebody that I knew as a young girl and have seen at reunions. And she’s in a relationship now. I believe they’re engaged, maybe even married now, a couple of years after we met over coffee.

Karen Nowicki: [00:21:39] And she said that her then partner was struggling with mental health, depression, suicidal ideation. And as she read what I was sharing, being his beloved partner, it was ripping her apart that that could be her and she didn’t know how to handle it. He was unwilling at the time to get professional help. And so, she started reading these entries to him aloud. And I don’t know how soon, but I think within four or five entries, he ended up agreeing to go get professional help by himself and also couples counseling for the two of them.

Karen Nowicki: [00:22:16] And she said I just knew that the anguish and the difficulty that I was sitting in, not having a clue what happened, not having known how to help, and having a partner who refused to get help until it was too late, and even now not getting the help, she just knew that she had to share that. So, I hope that’s kind of the example that you’re looking for.

John Ray: [00:22:43] Wow. That’s tremendous. And there’s no telling what has happened without you even knowing about it. And this is just what you know about in terms of the people that you have impacted by sharing your story so truly authentically.

Karen Nowicki: [00:23:03] Yes. There was no other choice. And now it’s interesting, again, I’m beyond it. We have not been married for over a-year-and-a-half now. And I want to continue to be a beacon of light for people, and it has to be authentic. So, I’m just kind of looking for what’s happening in my life that I can continue sharing.

Karen Nowicki: [00:23:26] You alluded to this, there was catastrophic financial loss that I was not even aware of had already taken place. And so, even though I’m 58 years old, it’s like I’m 23 years old, starting over again and keeping both businesses afloat. I’m so grateful for the community providing some financial support when we were in the midst of the chaos. I have a very dear friend who recently invested in my business so that I could get to the next level with teammates and that sort of thing.

Karen Nowicki: [00:23:55] And, yeah, I feel very grateful that I’ve been willing to get out of my own way and also share that part of the story to help other business owners and individuals who, again, sometimes we think that we’re the only person. I always say, people think that they’re terminally unique. And we’re not. We’re all looking for validation that we’re okay, and that we’re enough, and that we can contribute in some way. We’re all designed fairly similarly, whether we’re an introvert or an extrovert or anywhere in between, we just want to know that we’re here for a reason.

John Ray: [00:24:31] Since you brought up introvert and extrovert, we were talking about this before we came on, you know, the typical listener of this series is a solo and small professional services practitioner, most of whom are introverts as a general proposition. And I can hear the introverts saying, “I can’t believe that Karen shared what she shared.” What do you say to somebody that is thinking that and thinking I’m a private person and there’s no way I could do what you’ve done, Karen?

Karen Nowicki: [00:25:12] Well, stay private. I realized that that is one of my unique – I don’t know what it is – call it a curse or a blessing. One of the unique gifts that I bring to this world is the ability to tell people how I’m feeling as it’s happening. And not everybody can do that publicly.

Karen Nowicki: [00:25:32] However, it’s important to share your story with someone. And when people are fortunate to be in relationships, marriages, or long term friendships where they can really show up authentically as who they are and let someone know when they’re struggling and challenged and they’ve got the right support structure, that’s great.

John Ray: [00:26:16] And I don’t want to make this into something that’s a little crass like personal brand, but I think people hear that and they hear authenticity and showing up. But there’s showing up as – I’ll call it – the made up you. They’re showing up as the Real you. And I mean the capital R, Real you. That’s what you did.

Karen Nowicki: [00:26:58] Yeah. And there’s a way to do that, no matter who you are. This is not about airing your dirty laundry, just to do that, right? Just speaking authentically from a place of some of the challenges, whether it be business, or raising children, or moving to a new location, or the next level in your business, whether you’re introvert or extrovert, I don’t think that matters. As leaders, we’re called to show up authentically and everyone has their own pace and cadence for that.

Karen Nowicki: [00:27:30] That’s one of the neatest things that you and I can offer with Business RadioX, our story matters. And people want to hear what we’ve been through, what challenges do we have, what hurdles did we have to overcome, when did you think you’re going to quit and give up, and what got you through that to to be where you are today, what’s the next challenge that you’re faced with right now going into 2023. Those answers can be from the cuff and they can be from the heart.

Karen Nowicki: [00:27:57] And I think that’s one of the greatest things that Business RadioX has to offer people and with the work that you do, John, with your clients. People need to get out of their own way, myself included. So, I have coaches and guides. When it comes to sales, when it comes to marketing and advertising – I mentioned that early on – those are areas that I’m not well-equipped at and good at. And yet I show up because I’m listening and I’m learning and I’m paying attention to the people who do it better than I can. And they’re helping me learn how to do it for me in a way that it feels real and authentic to me.

John Ray: [00:28:33] So, let’s talk briefly, if we can, just the whole idea of you obviously had to hold yourself together, your relationships together, your children as they navigated this trauma that came out of the blue for them as well. But let’s talk about your businesses and just how you held it together. Because you’ve got to show up for clients and you’re a coach and you’ve got to bring something for that client that’s sitting in front of you with their own issues that may have nothing to do with what you’re dealing with. How did you do that?

Karen Nowicki: [00:29:23] I’m grateful that I had a couple different income streams. So, I think that’s important when we look at it from that perspective of we’re relying only on one avenue of income and it’s solely dependent on us, we’re in trouble. I was fortunate that I could very quickly hire someone to run the studio for me. And with very little direction, she took it over for me. So, that part of my business was handled.

Karen Nowicki: [00:29:49] I did step away from the intimate coaching for a little bit of time because I was no good for anybody, so being able to admit when I needed to step away. And, again, grateful that I had this other business running so that there was still the income.

Karen Nowicki: [00:30:07] As far as working with clients, both here at Business RadioX and in my coaching practice, I had already built enough strong enough relationships just in caring for people deeply and giving them permission to care for me back. That when I was ready to come back into the field full force, I could simply make those calls and send an email and say, “Hey, listen, I’m ready. Here’s the kind of clients that I enjoy working with. If you’re ready to come back and work with me, I’d love that. If not, if you’ll be a referral source for me.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:30:36] So, I think the theme for both of my businesses is when we care deeply for people and we allow people to care deeply for us, the universe works on our behalf. Things will come our way when we know that we are really a force for good.

John Ray: [00:30:53] You know, it strikes me as I’m listening to you talk, Karen, and again, I’m getting back to just what you decided to share. I mean, you did that as your own personal source of healing. It strikes me how generous that is, because you could have kept all that to yourself. You could have written what you wrote, pass it along to your three close friends, let them look at it, and just deep sixed it and kept it private. But there was a mission to what you were doing, and it was an act of pure generosity, it seems like to me, because you were willing to take whatever came your way in terms of the consequences of doing that, which, for you, were severe.

Karen Nowicki: [00:31:49] That’s very sweet of you to say. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody refer to it as generous, so thank you. It makes me a little overwhelmed.

Karen Nowicki: [00:32:00] It was a survival mechanism. It’s not something I wanted to do. I wanted to be like the rest of the world on social media and who’s visible and just the highlight reel. And, unfortunately, I didn’t get to share that. So, it was a survival technique. It was the only one that I had available to me. And I just listened.

Karen Nowicki: [00:32:26] And I think when we’re being called to do anything in our life, business or personally, and we have that – I’ll call it – nagging voice in the back of our head – mine sometimes sounds like a nag, a nag or a nudge – I’ve just learned in my life that it’s that voice and that nudge or that nag that’s constantly humming in the background that I’ve got to pay attention to. And, again, I have to just trust that I’m going to find my way through why it is that we do the things that we’re called to do.

Karen Nowicki: [00:32:57] And I love that you’ve shared that it felt generous. It makes me feel very hopeful and appreciative that you’re paying attention.

John Ray: [00:33:06] Well, thank you. Well, see, there’s a difference, to me, between help and trying to help people. Because sometimes help has strengths, right? I mean, it can come back in ways that maybe we don’t acknowledge, but it comes back in ways to benefit us. But when you’re doing what you were doing, knowing that you likely would suffer in some way from it, and you did, then that really gets beyond help into generosity, and that’s why I say that.

Karen Nowicki: [00:33:39] And my Business RadioX family or our Business RadioX family was there for me every step of the way, all of you. And we were fairly new in relationship. I’d only had the studio, I want to say, for – what? – a-year-and-a-half, maybe two years, and, again, at a great distance. I’m way over here in the Southwest and you guys are all in the Atlanta area. We’ve grown a lot since then as a team. And I never felt like there was a time that I couldn’t pick up the phone or text or email and say I need some help. And I didn’t have to rely on that very often. But when I did, everybody rose to the occasion.

Karen Nowicki: [00:34:16] Which, again, for our listeners, for this particular group of people who might be interested in a conversation like this, even though you are a solopreneur and you are at the helm, bring people in your life, invite people in your life, the coach, the guide, the mentor, possibly a partner, certainly your clients and your customers – find the win-win-win for everybody – all the stakeholders. So that, again, it’s a richer and more viable experience and it will have legs.

John Ray: [00:34:48] Yeah, for sure. And, really, one aspect of what you’re talking about is digging the well before you’re thirsty. I mean, you had that support structure before this happened. And when it happened, you were ready, you had prepared.

Karen Nowicki: [00:35:06] I have a friend who just had a 20 pound tumor removed from her stomach. We’re hoping that it’s not cancer. It doesn’t look like it’s going to be. And I just went and visited her on Sunday. Also, a business owner, a longtime solopreneur. And now she has a team of 20 people on her team, which is amazing. And she said just that, John, “I had no idea how the community and people in my life would respond when I needed help and I was laid up. And I’m so grateful that I built a business that didn’t rely just on me. That I got smart a couple of years ago and started building it so that more stakeholders could benefit in profit and we could help more people.”

Karen Nowicki: [00:35:46] And very different situation for me, but she said the exact same thing, “I am so overwhelmed by the amount of love and support and outpouring for people just being a champion of me. I can’t help but wonder why.” And we both laughed at each other and said, “Well, it’s because you show up that way for other people and that’s truly who you are.” So, yes, I love the way that you put that.

John Ray: [00:36:08] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Shoutout to her and her healing, for sure. So, one of the things that has stood out to me recently, speaking of things we post on social media, is you’ve been using this hashtag I want to know about, so it’s #traumainformedworkplace. Now, what do you mean by that? What does that term mean? And is that looking ahead toward trauma that might occur? Is it looking backward? What are we talking about there, Karen?

Karen Nowicki: [00:36:43] So, it’s not my term. I didn’t make it up. A lot of people use it, especially now that COVID has been something that’s really knocked us all off of our A-game. And I come at trauma informed workplaces a little bit different. A lot of folks will go into companies, enterprises, medium size, small businesses, public education, wherever, and they will have hour long talks, sometimes half-day seminars, even three or four days, certification programs around how to be aware of where trauma might be impacting the way we show up in our life and businesses. That’s all well and fine. I would say that’s layer one. Let’s be aware that trauma is part of what’s happening in the background all the time.

Karen Nowicki: [00:37:34] So, the angry executive or the pissed off client or the employee who doesn’t show up for work day after day or they’re there but they’re not really high functioning, it’s likely that something traumatic has happened either recently or from the past that they haven’t dealt with. And in the work that I do with clients, I help people get the shock out of their body in a variety of different ways. But the body keeps score, and if we don’t clear the shock out of our body, it will inform our decisions. And we’re still in fight, flight, or freeze, or fawn mode. And fawn is maybe a new word for a lot of people. Fawn is an over caregiver and I’m taking care of everything but myself – that would be fawning – and kind of grappling for the attention and needing the visibility.

Karen Nowicki: [00:38:23] So, layer one is let’s just be aware of what trauma is, how it impacts our brain, and how it shows up in conflict. And let’s make sure that as a trauma informed workplace, we have a way to handle that and deal with that culture-wise and team-wise. That’s all well and fine.

Karen Nowicki: [00:38:39] And then, this next layer that I work with, with individuals and business owners that come to my practice and work with me, it’s let’s have you heal your trauma and re-integrate it so that your decisions, the way you show up in your marriage, your friendships, your business, your leadership, the way in which you work with your stakeholders, you’re standing in the present moment with all your faculties about you. You’re aware that you have a past, some of it may have been kind of sucky, some of it may have been great. But the decisions you’re making today are in alignment with who you are today. And you’re not having to look over your shoulder out of reaction or response.

Karen Nowicki: [00:39:16] Now, it’s a long winded answer, but there’s a lot to trauma, and I think we’re finally starting to have conversations about it so that we can be there at a higher level for each other, and most importantly for ourselves.

John Ray: [00:39:30] Yeah. And that shows up differently, as you said, for each of us. And the question is having conversation and being open about that and creating an environment where people can be open.

Karen Nowicki: [00:39:43] Safe, right? And we’re talking about trials. There’s personal trauma. There’s also historical trauma. There’s legacy trauma, familial, family trauma. And we all carry a little bit of that with us without even knowing it. So, we’ve got to come to better understand how does that come and show up in our communication or our lack of communication, and how can we have compassion, respect, and autonomy with each other.

John Ray: [00:40:11] So, Karen, you’ve been really generous with your time, and you’re busy, you got a lot going on.

Karen Nowicki: [00:40:18] My producer just walked by the window and was going to come in and get ready for our show, and he’s like, “Whoops. I can’t go in there yet.”

John Ray: [00:40:24] He’s like, “Hey, we got other things to do here.” But before we let you go, though, I would love it if maybe you could share one final takeaway. You know, as listeners absorb your story, what should they hold on to from your story that could help them in their personal lives and in their business lives?

Karen Nowicki: [00:40:49] So, we heard a couple of times that phrase, a couple of times, and you just said it to me as you’re kind of handing this for my final word, everybody’s story matters. Therefore, your story — like you’re lacking or you deficit, those are just stories that you tell yourself that you can change your story. Our stories and our past matter, and they don’t have to fully define us. So, take care of yourself, mental health, physical health, self-care, all of that is not underrated.

Karen Nowicki: [00:41:22] And it’s not just going to a spa once a month or getting your manicure, pedicure, or going to see your chiropractor, once a year checkup. It is daily practices that help you become the best version of you, so that when you look in the mirror everyday, you like the person that you see looking back at you. And that filters into every aspect of your life, most particularly those of us who are solopreneurs and entrepreneurs and business owners, we’ve got to get that together or we’re going to find ourselves struggling when it comes to financial wellbeing and the success of our businesses.

John Ray: [00:41:57] And, folks, if you need help with that, I know a coach that can help you. So, that gets us to the most important question, maybe, which is how folks can get in touch with you, Karen, that would like to know more maybe about your coaching practice, but just maybe they’ve got to download their own trauma around suicide.

Karen Nowicki: [00:42:20] Absolutely. I would love to help even if just a conversation. If we’re not a right fit for each other, I can refer you to other people. I do see people here in-person in the Metro Phoenix area. And I also have just as many clients – actually, maybe even more – that we do FaceTime or Zoom from the comfort of their office or their home. So, happy to be of support.

Karen Nowicki: [00:42:39] I am on LinkedIn, Karen Nowicki or Phoenix Business RadioX. I am just now finally working on a website for Deep Impact Leadership. So, the best way to reach out to me right now is through LinkedIn. Or my email address is karennowicki2007@gmail.com if you want to reach out personally. Or reach out to John and he’ll direct you to me, and we’ll have a conversation, just a discovery and see where I can best support you if I am the right person for that.

John Ray: [00:43:08] Terrific. Karen Nowicki, wow, I’m just honored to have you as a friend. And thank you so much for your great work and how you are helping people in such a generous way. Thank you.

Karen Nowicki: [00:43:23] You’re welcome, John. Thank you for letting me share this time with you.

John Ray: [00:43:26] Absolutely. Hey, folks, just a quick reminder as we wrap up here, pricevaluejourney.com is where you can find out more on this series, you can find the link to the show archive. And you can also sign up to get more information on my upcoming book coming out this summer called The Price and Value Journey – ironically enough – Raising Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Pricing Using The Generosity Mindset Method. So, if you want to know more about that, you can sign up for updates on when that’s coming. And with that, thanks again to Karen Nowicki for joining us. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey.

 

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Don’t Fill In the Blanks

by

Don't Fill In the Blanks
North Fulton Studio
Don’t Fill In the Blanks
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Don't Fill In the BlanksDon’t Fill In the Blanks

Having a thorough value conversation helps you craft the right solutions for a potential client. Don’t fill in the blanks or make assumptions about what a client values. It’s in the best interest of the client (and, by extension, you) to exercise patience and ask questions.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] Hello, I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. When I interview a guest on the podcast that I host, my last question is always the same. I ask guests for their best contact information, whether it’s a website, social media channel, maybe a phone number, so that listeners interested in their services or their products know the best way to connect. Normally, that’s not a problem for my guest, even the most nervous ones. And then, there’s the guest who surprises you.

John Ray: [00:00:33] On one show, I had a guest who was the development director for a national chain, opening a location in the Alpharetta area where I live. He was on the show to promote a new location opening in the area. The whole interview was a bit painful. I couldn’t tell whether this guy was nervous or just a man of few words. At certain points, I felt like I was in a verbal struggle to wrest answers out of his mouth.

John Ray: [00:01:03] When we mercifully got to the end of the interview, I breathed a sigh of relief and asked my usual last question. He gave the website followed by silence. The website was for the national chain, not the local location about to open. I waited for a moment. I expected him to at least give a local phone number or something, anything which might make it easy for customers in the area to connect with this one new outlet he was promoting out of a large national chain. But that’s not what happened. It was just the website then crickets.

John Ray: [00:01:44] Well, trying to help out and fill in what I thought was a significant void, I looked at my show notes and I said, “Oh, and I see the phone number for those that would like to call is,” and I gave the phone number. “That’s my cell phone number,” he monotoned. Well, we edited that little snippet out later.

John Ray: [00:02:06] As professional services providers in conversations with our clients, sometimes we get anxious when we’re attempting to conduct a good value conversation to diagnose their needs, and hopes, and desires. We’re striving to make sure the client is a great fit for our practice and price based on the value that we deliver.

John Ray: [00:02:27] And sometimes we have a client who is reticent or maybe they’re busy. They think they already know what they want. And they believe that some of the questions you ask aren’t relevant or you’re just making conversation. They react by shutting down or trying to pivot the conversation to your solutions.

John Ray: [00:02:47] Instead of exercising a bit more patience or engaging the client from another direction which might yield the answers we’re looking for, we end our value conversation and move on. That’s a mistake. Instead of assuming I had the correct phone number, I should have asked my guest, “Do you have a phone number that our listeners here in the area can call for more information?” Instead of doing that, I made an assumption. I filled in the blank and I was dead wrong.

John Ray: [00:03:19] If you haven’t had a deep enough value conversation with a client, later on, when you’re crafting options to put in a proposal, you’ll make conjectures, some of which may be half right, some of which may be just flat out dead wrong. You’ll end up proposing solutions which may not fit the needs of the client, and you might lose a great engagement. You also might end up with a client who’s a bad fit for your practice. You might end up mispricing the engagement. There are a lot of bad things that can happen.

John Ray: [00:03:54] So, slow down and be patient. Always conduct a thorough value conversation. Don’t fill in the blanks.

John Ray: [00:04:04] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you go to pricevaluejourney.com, you can sign up to receive updates on my upcoming book that will be released in the summer of 2023. It’s called The Price and Value Journey: Raising Your Confidence, Your Value and Your Prices Using the Generosity Mindset Method. You can also find a link to the show archive of this series and, of course, you can find the podcast on all the major podcast apps as well. If you’d like to connect with me directly, you can feel free to email me at john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

  

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translates into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

How to Maximize Profit as a Car Dealership, with Max Zanan, MZ Dealer Services and Author of the Perfect Dealership Series

by

Max Zanan
How to Sell a Business
How to Maximize Profit as a Car Dealership, with Max Zanan, MZ Dealer Services and Author of the Perfect Dealership Series
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Max Zanan

How to Maximize Profit as a Car Dealership, with Max Zanan, MZ Dealer Services and Author of the Perfect Dealership Series (How To Sell a Business Podcast, Episode 11)

Max Zanan, owner of MZ Dealer Services and author of Perfect Dealership, a four book series dedicated to helping car dealership owners adapt and thrive in their business, joined host Ed Mysogland. They discussed the industry as a whole, how dealers make their money, where the profit actually is, why dealerships are not likely to stay in the owner’s family, the role of the service department, how to keep qualified employees or train them, why buying a car takes so long, and much more.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced and broadcast by the North Fulton Studio of Business RadioX® in Atlanta.

MZ Dealer Services

Max Zanan is an automotive industry leader offering a comprehensive automotive consulting service for car dealers nationwide. His goal is to improve customer experience and retention while increasing dealership’s profits.

Contact Max today to build a better dealership including automotive compliance, F&I optimization, sales strategy, and more. He welcomes phone calls at  917-903-0312.

Website | Facebook| YouTube

Perfect Dealership Books by Max Zanan

Remember travel agencies? They were a thriving business not so long ago. Then online services transformed the industry, and brick-and-mortar travel agencies died—and died quickly.

Today, traditional car dealerships are facing much the same threat. Innovative and convenient digital startups and services threaten to disrupt the traditional car-sale process, egged on by consumers who aren’t happy with the existing sales process. If car dealerships don’t adapt, they too will face an industry-wide extinction.

Perfect Dealership offers help and hope for dealerships struggling to adapt to this digital-based paradigm shift. Consultant Max Zanan applies fifteen years of automotive-industry experience to the future of the car dealership. Arguing that dealerships must make significant changes if they are to survive the coming storm, Zanan takes a close look at every department within the business, including

    • human resources,
    • business development centers,
    • information technology,
    • parts and service, and
    • finance and insurance.

By improving the role of each department and transforming them from individual echelons into a cohesive whole, Zanan offers a road map for the creation of a perfect dealership—the only way to remain relevant and solvent in the digital age.

Find all of Max’s books here: Perfect Dealership

Max Zanan, Owner, MZ Dealer Services, and Author of the Perfect Dealership Series

Max Zanan, Owner, MZ Dealer Services, and Author of the “Perfect Dealership” Series

Max Zanan is the author of four best-selling books on automotive retail management: Perfect Dealership, Car Business 101, The Art and Science of Running a Car Dealership, and Effective Car Dealer. Each book is a top-ranked Amazon category leader and have received many 5-star reviews from prominent car dealership owners and managers. Max’s success as an author, general manager and entrepreneur has helped to cement his position as a preeminent voice leading the charge for modernization of the auto retail industry.

Max Zanan is a seasoned automotive industry expert with 20 years of experience in sales, F&I, compliance, and dealership management consulting. His goal is to help car dealers improve profitability while increasing customer satisfaction and retention. Zanan is a thought leader, organizer of the Perfect Dealership Conference, keynote speaker, and frequently quoted in trade publications such as Automotive News, Fixed Ops Journal, and Auto Dealer Today.

LinkedIn

Ed Mysogland, Host of How To Sell a Business Podcast

Ed Mysogland, Host of “How To Sell a Business”

The How To Sell a Business Podcast combines 30 years of exit planning, valuation, and exit execution working with business owners. Ed Mysogland has a mission and vision to help business owners understand the value of their business and what makes it salable. Most of the small business owner’s net worth is locked in the company; to unlock it, a business owner has to sell it. Unfortunately, the odds are against business owners that they won’t be able to sell their companies because they don’t know what creates a saleable asset.

Ed interviews battle-tested experts who help business owners prepare, build, preserve, and one-day transfer value with the sale of the business for maximum value.

How To Sell a Business Podcast is produced virtually from the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® in Alpharetta.  The show can be found on all the major podcast apps and a full archive can be found here.

Ed is the Managing Partner of Indiana Business Advisors. He guides the development of the organization, its knowledge strategy, and the IBA initiative, which is to continue to be Indiana’s premier business brokerage by bringing investment-banker-caliber of transactional advisory services to small and mid-sized businesses. Over the last 29 years, Ed has been appraising and providing pre-sale consulting services for small and medium-size privately-held businesses as part of the brokerage process. He has worked with entrepreneurs of every pedigree and offers a unique insight into consulting with them toward a successful outcome.

Connect with Ed: LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:00] Business owners likely will have only one shot to sell a business. Most don’t understand what drives value and how buyers look at a business. Until now. Welcome to the How to Sell a Business podcast where every week we talk to the subject matter experts, advisors and those around the deal table about how to sell at maximum value. Every business will go to sell one day. It’s only a matter of when. We’re glad you’re here. The podcast starts now.

Ed Mysogland: [00:00:36] On today’s show, I get the opportunity to interview Max Zanan. Max is the author of four bestselling books on automotive retail management, and they’re entitled Perfect Dealership, Car Business 101, The Art and Science of Running a Car Dealership, and Effective Car Dealer. Each book — and I did this in my — reviewed them in my research for this interview. Each book has plenty of stars right next to it. So each book is a top-rated Amazon category leader and certainly has received many five-star reviews from prominent dealership owners and managers.

Max’s success as an author, general manager, and entrepreneur has helped position himself as the premier preeminent voice of leading the charge for modernization of the auto retail industry. He has 20 years of experience in sales, compliance, dealer management, consulting. And everywhere I looked, his name kept popping up. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Max Zanan.

I’m your host, Ed Mysogland. And on this podcast, I interview buyers, sellers, dealmakers and other professional advisors on what creates value in a business and then how that business can be effectively sold at a premium value. So as I — in the introduction, you heard me talk about Max. And Max Zanan of MZ Dealer Services is literally the authority on automobile dealerships. I looked high and low for my research, during my research, and he is just that guy. And so I’m so grateful to introduce to you Max Zanan. So welcome to the show.

Max Zanan: [00:02:34] I mean, Ed, thank you for this wonderful introduction and the opportunity to be part of your podcast.

Ed Mysogland: [00:02:41] Well, I’ll tell you, I’ve been looking forward to this because it’s a different animal. And like I said in my research and all the things that, all the different pieces that go into making a successful dealership, there’s a lot going on there. But before we get into my questions, can you talk a little bit about MZ Sealer Services?

Max Zanan: [00:03:07] So MZ Dealer Services is me. There’s nobody else.

Ed Mysogland: [00:03:12] That’s the MZ part.

Max Zanan: [00:03:14] Right. There’s nobody else. Meaning literally, I do not even have an assistant.

Ed Mysogland: [00:03:19] Okay.

Max Zanan: [00:03:20] And my job is to help dealers make money. And it sounds easy, but car business is so complicated and complex that there’s a reason why a lot of dealers do not make money. So again, there are different ways where you can make money. And I tried to bring all the options to the table, so the dealer doesn’t become a one trick pony. They can maximize profit opportunities in every single department because oftentimes, dealers make a mistake, and they obsess over the sales department, right, because they’re convinced that you can sell your way out of any trouble.

But when you buy a dealership, a franchised dealership, you’re not just getting a new car department. You’re getting a used car department. You’re getting a service department. You’re getting parts department. Sometimes you get in the body shop. So unless you’re maximizing every single opportunity that you paid for, you’re literally leaving money on the table.

Ed Mysogland: [00:04:37] Yeah. Some of the research that I had found was that you look at each of those respective divisions as almost their own business within a larger business and each has their own various attributes that contribute to value. One of the things that — you know, I’ve been appraising companies for 30 years or so. And the funny thing is that everybody says business valuation, it’s both an art and science. And the funny thing was in the research, I saw the same thing about what you do. So can you talk a little bit about the art and science of what you do?

Max Zanan: [00:05:16] So the science is easy, right? Because there are certain KPIs. Right, whether it’s profit per car, number of line items on the repair order, number of hours worked per repair order, stuff like that. But the art part is the hard part, right, because you’re right, sometimes and actually most of the times, each department operates in a silo. To a degree, where there’s zero communication with other departments. And the art is actually to bring them all together and make sure that they work towards a common goal. Because the common goal is to sell cars and then to service cars and then to sell cars again. So if the sales department and the service department are in silos, you will never get that full circle.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:20] I get it. So is it a people issue? For the art part, is it a people issue? Is it a technology issue or is it an all of the above issue?

Max Zanan: [00:06:36] You know, it’s all of the above, plus lack of professional training issue. So the problem that we have is that I don’t think you’ll ever run into a Harvard MBA at a car dealership. Car dealers fail to attract talent the way Wall Street does.

Ed Mysogland: [00:06:58] So why is that?

Max Zanan: [00:06:59] Or the way Silicon Valley does.

Ed Mysogland: [00:07:00] Yeah. Why is that?

Max Zanan: [00:07:02] Well, because people think of car dealers — you know, car dealers have a terrible reputation, right, up there with Congressman. Right?

Ed Mysogland: [00:07:10] Right.

Max Zanan: [00:07:13] So, when there is this stigma attached to the industry, nobody is growing up saying that Ed, I can’t wait to grow up and get into car sales. But let’s say Wall Street doesn’t have that stigma and you do have kids finishing school, going to college with a goal of getting into Wall Street. Whether as a trader, as a broker, as an analyst, they just want to be part of that institution.

Ed Mysogland: [00:07:47] I get it. Well, the funny thing you would think, like, isn’t it John Elway? Doesn’t he own like a portfolio of —

Max Zanan: [00:08:00] Everybody wants to be a car dealer. John Elway, you know, Mark Wahlberg. You know, everybody. I mean, Warren Buffett.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:09] Sure. That’s what I’m getting at. So you would think that with that kind of notoriety, that it would garner attention for more people to get into it, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. Maybe it’s a best kept secret in entrepreneurship.

Max Zanan: [00:08:27] Maybe, but it works against the dealer, right, because you cannot attract talented people.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:34] I see.

Max Zanan: [00:08:35] You don’t even get an opportunity, right? You literally get the bottom of the barrel.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:41] So how do you offset that? I mean, yeah, that’s a big problem.

Max Zanan: [00:08:45] The only way to offset it is to grow your own talent internally.

Ed Mysogland: [00:08:49] Okay. And then that begs, how do you keep them? How do you keep them from going to the — is it all economics or is there something else that keeps the tech, keeps whoever there?

Max Zanan: [00:09:03] There is definitely something else because it’s not just money. Right. It’s the organizational culture.

Ed Mysogland: [00:09:10] Okay.

Max Zanan: [00:09:11] So, and again, I think a lot of dealerships fail at that. You know, for example, if you talk about organizational culture, the best example I can give you is probably Zappos.

Ed Mysogland: [00:09:25] Okay. Oh, sure. The shoe company. All right.

Max Zanan: [00:09:27] That’s right. I mean, there’s a reason why Amazon paid billion dollars for a shoe company. Right. It was the culture.

Ed Mysogland: [00:09:35] I see.

Max Zanan: [00:09:36] And it’s that culture that keeps the people, you know, allows you to retain talent and attract talent so you can be the highest paying dealer on the block. But if the organizational culture is terrible, people will go elsewhere and work for less money and be happy.

Ed Mysogland: [00:09:57] Yeah. Yeah. And certainly — and I’ve got a question that I found. This is a statement from CDK Global. I don’t know who CDK Global is, but it said that, and I’ll just read it. So it says, CDK said that there are a lot of assumptions made about Gen Z loosely defined as individuals born between 1997 and 2012, the need for instant gratification from simple online purchase experience to real time social media engagement. However, when it comes to buying a vehicle, CDK discovered that Gen Z seems to be more thoughtful and spend more time weighing decisions while the experience of buying new and used cars, of buying a newer used car more frustrating than any other generation. With Gen Z, the most interested in understanding all of their options. So that was 81 percent compared to Millennials of 73 percent, Gen X of 60 percent, and Baby Boomers 45 percent. The need for education, both online and from knowledgeable representative at the dealership proves to be critical according to the study.

So that, my point to you is it’s exactly what you were saying regarding employees and the people that are representing the dealership that the expectation of those that are now buying it has to be a better experience. And those people have to be able to have the education and communication. Right or no?

Max Zanan: [00:11:35] You know, to me, the most frustrating part about the statement is the fact that CDK Global made it. Right. I don’t think they have any place to make that statement because CDK Global makes an operating system that dealers use.

Ed Mysogland: [00:11:52] Well, then that makes sense.

Max Zanan: [00:11:54] So I don’t know how much CDK Global knows about car buying, car selling or the demographics of buyers. But to be honest with you, this is what they say about every generation. I mean, if you look back, I mean, they were saying the same thing about Millennials, that Millennials are different. I’m a Generation X, right, the best generation.

Ed Mysogland: [00:12:13] Yeah, it is.

Max Zanan: [00:12:15] Yeah. And everybody was saying, oh, my God, you know, Millennials, everything’s going to change. They will not be buying cars. They will be using rideshare. They’ll be Uber, this, lifting that. But at the end of the day, this is what happens in the real world. You become an adult, regardless of your generation. And as an adult, you know what happens? You move to suburbs. You know what happens in suburbs? You can’t live there with Uber. You need a car. You become an adult, you get married. You become an adult, you have kids. Right. You can use rideshare if you got to take your kid to the soccer practice. Right. So at the end of the day, you become like the generation before you and you buy cars exactly the same way as the generation before you.

Ed Mysogland: [00:13:08] And it’s such a great point. And you’re exactly right. And I didn’t think of it until you said it. But the same thing, the same concerns that I have put in my kids in cars and such are the same ones certainly my parents had, and your parents had.

Max Zanan: [00:13:25] That’s it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:13:27] So, as you know, I mean earnings drive business value. In reviewing the comments about all four of your books, it was a repeated theme that your tips led to increased profitability. Do you have any favorites that you could share without selling out?

Max Zanan: [00:13:50] Listen, the beauty of this business is there’s nothing I can trademark.

Ed Mysogland: [00:13:57] I get you.

Max Zanan: [00:13:57] The secret sauce is really understanding how every part of the business operates. And I’ll give you the easiest example. For example, when you buy a car, at the end of the transaction, you’re going to go into the office where they’re going to try to sell you an extended warranty or gap insurance or tire and wheel protection. And this is the true profit center for any car dealership. That’s the finance department. So you can make money selling this product. And that’s what probably 99 percent of car dealers do. But you can probably double your profits as a dealer if you reinsure these products.

By reinsuring, I mean you open your own insurance company. And you buy a contractual liability insurance policy for each policy that you sell from the insurance company. So that’s why it’s called reinsurance. A real insurance company is reinsuring your business. And then if the premium dollars that you pay to your own insurance company exceed the claims dollars that you pay out, you will enjoy underwriting profit like any other insurance company. And the crazy part is that the underwriting profit is not taxed. That’s the beauty of insurance business as opposed to car business.

Ed Mysogland: [00:15:35] I get it. Okay.

Max Zanan: [00:15:37] So think about it. You can have, if you reserve properly for each policy that you sell, and you control your claims because you recondition your used cars before you sell them, you make sure you do the right thing by the customer. That underwriting profit is definitely there to be had. On top of it, this money, they don’t sit dormant, right? There is investment income that grows on these dollars. That’s how insurance companies make money.

Ed Mysogland: [00:16:13] Sure, sure. No, I get it.

Max Zanan: [00:16:15] And the investment income is subject to tax. But again, at capital gains rate, not an ordinary income rate. So it’s a phenomenal, phenomenal opportunity for any car dealer to build an asset outside of the dealership.

Ed Mysogland: [00:16:33] Got it.

Max Zanan: [00:16:33] Not be dependent on the factory and build generational wealth. And unfortunately, a lot of these dealers do not do it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:16:44] No, I mean, I can totally see that the synergy between the businesses that support the dealership are where the profit is, which literally blows the next question right out of the water, but I’m still going to ask it. So I’m told that in valuing a dealership, it’s made up of four components, the market value of the parts inventory, the market value of the equipment, the market value of the real estate, and then a multiple on the goodwill. Is that a fair assumption?

Max Zanan: [00:17:25] So think of it this way. You can ignore parts inventory and inventory because it just comes with the building, right? You can buy a dealership and say, you know what Ed, I’m only going to take the dealership, but you keep the parts. It doesn’t work like that, right? Yes, you can definitely put a dollar amount on the parts inventory. But at the end of the day, you still have to buy it. You can say, well, you take the parts inventory with you, I’m going to start fresh. Just doesn’t work like that.

Same thing with cars. If you’re selling, let’s say Nissan dealership to me and you have brand new Nissans on the lot. I mean, I can tell you Ed, I’m going to buy the dealership on the parts department, but you keep the cars, right? It just doesn’t work. We’re going to have to work out a number, how much I’m willing to pay for these cars, but the real crux of the issue is the blue sky. Blue sky is the value of the franchise. And the value of the franchise is something that market dictates. It’s not dictated by the dealer.

Ed Mysogland: [00:18:35] Really? So where does the market get its multiple or factor to apply to the goodwill?

Max Zanan: [00:18:46] Well, you see most corporations in America report their earnings on a quarterly basis. Of course, car dealers are different, they report every month. So this information is public. And every manufacturer, so let’s say you are a Nissan dealer or you are a Chevy dealer, doesn’t matter. When the month is over, let’s say January is over, within the first week of February, your factory expects a complete financial statement electronically sent to them. They know the profitability of –.

Ed Mysogland: [00:19:29] Of the franchise.

Max Zanan: [00:19:30] Exactly. So I think that’s how the –.

Ed Mysogland: [00:19:34] Really?

Max Zanan: [00:19:35] Gets established. But then again, listen, a lot of it is common sense. For example, I’m sure there are more KIA dealers than Porsche dealers.

Ed Mysogland: [00:19:45] Sure.

Max Zanan: [00:19:46] And you sell more KIAs, but you make less money per KIA sold as opposed to Porsche, right. You sell a few of those, but you make a lot more per car sold. And then let’s say, usually the high line brands have a higher multiple. Porsche being the highest multiple. Last time I checked, Porsche was selling for 11 multiple.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:13] 11 times what?

Max Zanan: [00:20:15] Earnings.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:16] Okay.

Max Zanan: [00:20:17] But these are crazy earnings.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:19] Sure, sure. No, I get.

Max Zanan: [00:20:20] Because you see what happens with the high line dealership, whether it’s Porsche or Mercedes, not only that you get to make money selling the car, right, because it’s a desirable product and people are willing to pay for the service and the car. But let’s assume for a second that you bought that Porsche, you’re not going to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. You’re not.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:44] Yeah, I know. You’re right.

Max Zanan: [00:20:46] So that service retention is almost guaranteed as opposed to you buying a Toyota Corolla. You can easily go to Jiffy Lube. Easily.

Ed Mysogland: [00:20:58] You’re right.

Max Zanan: [00:20:59] So that service retention is basically guaranteed and the amount of money that you are charged in a service department. I think Mercedes, Porsche dealerships right now are over $200 an hour for labor. I mean these are almost like doctors.

Ed Mysogland: [00:21:23] Right. No, no, you’re right. You’re exactly right. Oh, man. So you said, so there’s, let’s just say the Porsche dealership, you have an 11 multiple on earnings. Is that all in? Like you were talking about like the reinsurance company, is that all dumped in? All right.

Max Zanan: [00:21:46] No, reinsurance company is out. It’s almost like an off of balance sheet.

Ed Mysogland: [00:21:52] Okay. So they’ll bring their own, if they want to do it, they’ll do it themselves. But that’s independent of the value of the dealership.

Max Zanan: [00:22:01] Exactly. So basically, your net profit, right, that you generated in sales, service, and parts.

Ed Mysogland: [00:22:10] I got it. So around here, there was a recent article about — and here in Indianapolis, we’re seeing some dealerships turning over. And these were family dealerships, and it doesn’t seem — the article was basically that the next generation, or I shouldn’t say that, the selling generation did not want to invest in modernization in order to make it more marketable. So then a different dealer from a neighboring town comes in and now they have a presence in Indianapolis. So are you seeing that the generation, I guess the generation before us, that’s trying to transition would rather sell than modernize?

Max Zanan: [00:23:13] So, I’m not sure because the way it works is that their brand standards that are dictated, let’s say, by Mercedes or Nissan or Toyota and they say Ed, if you are a Toyota dealer, your showroom has to look this way. That’s why they look the same regardless of whether you’re in Indianapolis or New York. And you have to spend your hardearned money to do that. It’s not open to negotiation. These brand standards are real, and I think generation is really irrelevant, right? Because whether it’s the older generation or younger generation, you just have to do what the factory tells you to do in terms of the brand standards. I think the generation that’s older than us, the baby boomers that are selling, I think they’re selling for one reason and one reason only. They’re selling because their kids are not interested in going into the business.

Ed Mysogland: [00:24:16] But why? They must have seen mom and dad print money. I mean, especially those that have been around for 20, 30 years.

Max Zanan: [00:24:25] So, unfortunately, you know, car dealers, probably like many other business owners, they don’t tell their kids to go into the same business. Right. They tell them, go become a doctor, go and become a lawyer. You know, do whatever makes you happy, and they do. Right. And they become high school teachers making $40,000 a year because mom and dad are gazillionaires, and subsidize their lifestyle.

Ed Mysogland: [00:24:58] No. You know what? That’s a great point and disappointing. But at the same time, it is what is. So you see industry consolidation more so than transfer from Gen one to Gen two. Fair statement?

Max Zanan: [00:25:19] You know, car business is extremely fragmented. I don’t think there’s another business like that because if you look you know, I mean, look at, let’s say, Internet search business, right? It’s Google or nothing. Right? Social media, it’s Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Snapchat. There are 18,000 franchised dealers in America. The largest auto group publicly traded, it’s called AutoNation. They have 330 dealerships, out of 18,000.

Ed Mysogland: [00:25:57] Yeah. No, no. I see where you’re going.

Max Zanan: [00:25:59] So it’s super fragmented. So when we talk about consolidation, you know, even if it consolidates another 10 percent, it still be super fragmented.

Ed Mysogland: [00:26:08] Yeah. No, that’s a great point. Like I said, in communities like ours, it seems as though one family starts buying out another family. Like it seems in our community, it’s Tom Wood. It’s now, I’m trying to think of who’s buying them out but, Andy Moore. You know, he just continues to expand his market share, I guess. And it doesn’t seem — and that leads me to my next question. I mean, are individual buyers candidates for getting into this business or do you really have to, is the pedigree you really better have a real clear understanding of what you’re getting into because all the moving parts in this business is something unlike anything you’ve been accustomed to?

Max Zanan: [00:27:01] So listen, there’s this failsafe mechanism built into the buy sell process. For example, you would like to buy a Toyota dealership. Toyota will never approve you even if you have the money, because you don’t have the experience, because the factory is not interested in having dealerships failed because it’s a bad reflection on the name.

Ed Mysogland: [00:27:28] I got it.

Max Zanan: [00:27:29] So it’s not like, well, let me just have some money and become a car dealer. There’s a very thorough approval process. And if you don’t have the experience, you would have to bring in an executive manager that would probably end up being your partner.

Ed Mysogland: [00:27:47] I got it. Yeah, that’s fascinating. While I understand, like franchises, not necessarily automobile franchises, I do understand the rigors of going through the approval process. But again, I follow what you’re saying that it needs, you know, you need to have —

Max Zanan: [00:28:08] I think the difference between a Dunkin Donuts franchise and a Nissan franchise is that you and I can become Dunkin Donuts franchisees, but we will have to attend the Dunkin Donuts University.

Ed Mysogland: [00:28:21] All right.

Max Zanan: [00:28:23] It doesn’t work like that in car business. You can buy the franchise and then go to school provided by the manufacturer.

Ed Mysogland: [00:28:32] I got it. So the book you wrote during COVID. So in the book Effective Car Dealer: Selling Cars, Parts, and Labor After COVID-19, you talk about these are the silos, the sales, finance, financial and insurance compliance, service and parts. So what — and you alluded to this earlier, but I wanted to scratch the itch a little bit more on what area makes the biggest contribution to making the business saleable. I’m assuming it’s service, but I may be wrong.

Max Zanan: [00:29:12] SoSo there’s a huge problem in car business. And the problem is this, 97 percent of owners, partners, general managers all came up through sales.

Ed Mysogland: [00:29:27] Okay.

Max Zanan: [00:29:28] They don’t understand parts and service. So since 97 percent of your owners or future owners came up through sales, to them, sales department is it. So all they want to know is how many cars you sell, how much money per car you make. They don’t really understand KPIs that are in parts and service.

Ed Mysogland: [00:29:56] Got it.

Max Zanan: [00:29:57] And yes, you’re right. You know, parts and services are extremely profitable. For example, markup on labor in a car dealership is 75 percent. Markup on parts is 50 percent. You can never get these margins selling cars, ever.

Ed Mysogland: [00:30:17] Yeah. No, I get it, which leads me to my next question. So you mentioned KPIs a couple of times. So what are the leading indicators for a car dealer or are there tripwires that an owner needs to be aware of?

Max Zanan: [00:30:39] So to me, a huge indicator is service absorption. So service absorption means that the gross profit generated from parts and service covers all of your fixed expenses. For the entire operation, not just for parts and service.

Ed Mysogland: [00:31:00] Oh, okay. That’s a telling one.

Max Zanan: [00:31:03] Right. And so, for example, if your service absorption is 100 percent, that means you cover 100 percent of your fixed expenses through parts and service. Most dealers are nowhere near 100 percent. They’re below it. But there are some dealers that are above because you can be above 100 percent. You can be 110, 120 if you are a superstar. And what that tells me, if you are 100 or above, is that it doesn’t cost anything to sell cars. Right. It doesn’t cost anything. Meaning you can actually give cars away to grab market share because all of your expenses are covered, fixed expenses by parts and service.

Ed Mysogland: [00:31:52] Got it. So as the previous generation, we touched on this, and I guess I wanted to go back on how do you size up the next leader in the business? Like, for example, say the owner is going to just ride it out. I’m going to hold on to this, you know, and I’m going to leave involuntarily. They’re going to take me out in a box. So how does — I mean, are there certain attributes that you can see in dealer leadership? Like this is a man or woman that has, you know, this is the pedigree that I’m looking for that will preserve my investment?

Max Zanan: [00:32:48] You know, I wish it was that easy.

Ed Mysogland: [00:32:50] Me too.

Max Zanan: [00:32:53] So what usually ends up happening is that you have to grow your own talent. You have to invest into education. And this education is very, very limited. It’s not like you can go to school and major in dealership management. It’s not really an option. So you have to find information elsewhere. And there are good resources out there. There’s National Association Dealer — Association of Automotive Dealers, NADA. They have a university where you can enroll your employees. And it’s not cheap, but it’s worth every dollar.

And then usually a State Dealer Association would have some other courses available to its local dealer body. And again, you have to take advantage of it because these courses are available. But if you actually go there, you will see that the attendance is really, really poor. Because, you know, car dealers, as I mentioned before, they have to report every 30 days. So they live in a 30-day cycle, which really is counterproductive. It prevents you from building a long-term strategy, building a vision.

Ed Mysogland: [00:34:21] Because of the expectations to the franchise itself. So they’re not able to — they are expected to have a certain level of profit. Right or?

Max Zanan: [00:34:33] Well, it’s either profit — it’s not in profit, but let’s say if you are a Chevy dealer, right, the factory will say, well, in the month of February, we expect you to sell this many cars. So it becomes a rat race.

Ed Mysogland: [00:34:51] So does it — when does it trigger, I don’t want to say a default, but when do you — I mean, how many missed 30-day cycles can you —

Max Zanan: [00:35:04] Many. Many

Ed Mysogland: [00:35:05] Okay. So I can say, look, you know, I’m sending my best guys to this university to get educated. But as a consequence to doing that, it’s a good long-term play, but short term, I’m going to take it on the chin because I’m sending these guys to get educated. That fair statement?

Max Zanan: [00:35:28] Yeah. But again, this is a dealership specific education. They’re not going to NADA University to learn sociology and psychology.

Ed Mysogland: [00:35:37] All right. So how do you handcuff those people that you’re investing in?

Max Zanan: [00:35:43] So I think there’s a saying, like when the CEO is speaking to the CFO. And the CFO says, you know, we’re spending all this money training people, what if they leave? And the CEO says, what if we go then they stay?

Ed Mysogland: [00:36:01] I get it. That makes sense. Have you seen any noble ways to keep people? I mean, I know originally you were talking a little bit about culture, and you can go back to it. But how do I keep my best people?

Max Zanan: [00:36:20] So the hardest people to find right now are technicians. So as the dealer principal, you have to be really creative and come up with ways to keep them.

Ed Mysogland: [00:36:34] And you were saying it’s not all economic.

Max Zanan: [00:36:37] It’s not. Exactly. So, for example, what I learned is that every technician is addicted to buying tools. That’s their livelihood. They buy tools. This is what they spend their money on. Because as cars become more and more complicated, you need more and more sophisticated tools to work on these cars.

Ed Mysogland: [00:37:00] Well, it’s funny you say that, because in — so I’ve got a fellow that is coming on the podcast that specializes in the sale of automobile repair businesses. And one of the things in that research was that the technicians bring their own tools. Is that the same in dealerships or no?

Max Zanan: [00:37:28] Yes. So there’s certain special tools that are extremely expensive and they’re owned by the dealership. But your day-to-day wrenches, et cetera, are owned by technicians. So basically when you hire a technician, he shows up with his toolbox and then he keeps spending money to put more tools in his toolbox. So one of the most innovative ways, I think, to retain a technician is to go and help them buy tools.

Ed Mysogland: [00:38:02] Nice. No, that’s a great, you know, here’s X number of dollars per month for you to keep your toolbox up to date and find —

Max Zanan: [00:38:13] Another way, which is very effective, is to really come up with a formula and say for each year of service, it doesn’t matter if you’re a technician or you work in accounting and you’re selling cars for each year of service, there’ll be a bonus of X amount of dollars. So listen, if Ed is at XYZ Toyota for 15 years, right. And the bonus is $1,000 per year, you collect $15,000 around Christmas, which I think is worth it for the dealer and definitely is worth it for you. Because even if you were to get another job, you would start at zero, right?

Ed Mysogland: [00:38:58] Right. A hundred percent. Yeah. That’s a great idea. Okay. So I’ve got a couple more questions if you got some time.

Max Zanan: [00:39:10] Sure.

Ed Mysogland: [00:39:11] So, my first question is, where is the puck going in this industry? I mean, it seems as though — you know, it’s a volatile time, but yet maybe not.

Max Zanan: [00:39:24] This is a really controversial topic because as you know, this business operates based on franchise laws and we are living in the environment where every manufacturer wants to be like Tesla. And Tesla operates outside of franchise laws.

Ed Mysogland: [00:39:54] Really? How so?

Max Zanan: [00:39:55] Tesla sells direct. Tesla was able to [inaudible]. So Tesla sells direct to consumer. And now basically what happens in every boardroom, whether it’s Ford, GM, you know, there are two factions in every boardroom. There are old dogs that understand that you cannot sell cars in the United States without dealers. And then there’s another fraction that says, but wait, look at Tesla. And then they keep pointing at Tesla’s valuations. And Tesla is valued more than every manufacturer combined on planet earth. That’s a stock valuation.

Ed Mysogland: [00:40:40] Sure, sure. I get it.

Max Zanan: [00:40:41] Right. So these factories, again, whether it’s Ford or GM, they’re trying to come up with creative ways of how to cut out a dealer and sell direct to consumer. And that’s the real danger that I see. So to answer your question, where the puck is going, hopefully these manufacturers will understand that our franchise model is more than 100 years old. It has been proven and battle tested. And it’s really, really good for the consumer.

Whereas the direct-to-consumer model is extremely complicated in the sense that the manufacturer doesn’t have expertise selling cars, they have expertise making cars. So, for example, if you want to sell direct to consumer, most consumers have trade ins. Right. Who’s going to put a dollar amount on the trade in? In the car dealership, we have a used car manager for that. But if you’re doing this as direct-to-consumer online, you know, it becomes problematic.

Ed Mysogland: [00:42:02] And this is also the collapse of Carvana. Is that how that fell apart or no?

Max Zanan: [00:42:10] Well, Carvana fell apart because the math doesn’t work. You know, math is math.

Ed Mysogland: [00:42:17] Right.

Max Zanan: [00:42:17] Right. So let’s say, you know, just to use round numbers, let’s say every used car that you sell, let’s say you make $1500 on the sale of the vehicle in a dealership. And then there’s other profit by selling warranties, you know, and stuff like that. But let’s say you didn’t sell anything in that office, you only sold the car and you made $1500 dollars. It’s a very respectable number, but that’s assuming that you have a local customer. They took the car and they drove home. Let’s say Carvana made the same $1500 dollars, but they had to ship the car to Alaska.

Ed Mysogland: [00:43:00] Oh, sure. That makes sense.

Max Zanan: [00:43:03] You know, your $1500 is gone.

Ed Mysogland: [00:43:06] Yeah, I get it. I guess then the car buying experience is always brutal and everybody wants to know why it takes four hours to buy a car. I mean is that designed to car buying fatigue and I mean —

Max Zanan: [00:43:34] You know, I’ll be honest with you, it only takes four hours because of the consumer.

Ed Mysogland: [00:43:41] Oh, really?

Max Zanan: [00:43:42] Right. Because they come in not knowing what they want. All the things that you read about them doing research, all that research is gone by the time they walk into the showroom. And they’re like, “Well, I’m looking for an SUV”. Two row, three row. They start choosing the model, go on in the test drive, you know, and then let’s say the wife says, I hate it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:44:12] I get it.

Max Zanan: [00:44:13] Okay. So we start the process all over again. So let’s say, for example, you walk into a Jeep dealership, right, and you want to buy an SUV. Jeep makes SUVs of every size, right? There’s a tiny one. There’s a Cherokee. There’s a Grand Cherokee. There’s a Grand Cherokee longer version. And then there’s a Grand Wagoneer, which is like a school bus. And now, the consumer has to make a decision. And that decision making process is extremely long.

Ed Mysogland: [00:44:46] Sure. But once they’ve established price, it seems as though, the meter starts all over again waiting for financing and waiting for the opportunity to go through that process.

Max Zanan: [00:44:58] You see, this is not so clear cut because, yes, if you walk into a dealership and we pick the car for you and we settled on the price, and you don’t have a trade in, and you have excellent credit, that financing process is instantaneous, right? You are easy to get approved on. But usually, most people have a trade in, right. So now it’s the reverse because when you have a trade in, you are selling the car to the dealer.

Ed Mysogland: [00:45:31] Sure. I get it.

Max Zanan: [00:45:32] So now you negotiate on the trade in. And then what if you have some blemishes on your credit? And maybe you were hoping to get that low APR, but you don’t qualify. So the dealer has to find a different bank. And that takes time. And then you go into that office to sign the paperwork and the finance manager has to go through his presentation and present to you every protection product that’s available for sale, because you will then turn around and sue the dealership if this product wasn’t presented.

Ed Mysogland: [00:46:10] I get it. Okay. So it really isn’t a vehicle to, you know — I mean, certainly there’s some upselling that goes on, but it’s not a tactic to wear you down so you buy more.

Max Zanan: [00:46:29] It is not. And I think every dealer would want to speed up the process.

Ed Mysogland: [00:46:34] Sure.

Max Zanan: [00:46:37] If it takes me to sell a car and the process is four hours and I’m the salesperson, I cannot take another customer for the next four hours while I’m selling the car to you.

Ed Mysogland: [00:46:46] Sure. That’s what I would have thought. I get it. So at the conclusion of every podcast, I’ve always asked everyone I’ve interviewed, what is the single best piece of advice that you could give our listeners that would have the most impact on their dealership? What would that be?

Max Zanan: [00:47:08] Make sure that all of the departments in your car dealership are operating and working towards a common goal. And you have to define that common goal. And it has to be very, very specific because you can’t say our common goal is to sell cars. Right. It’s a little too vague because every dealer’s goal is to sell cars. Yet to me, the dealer, his goal was not to sell cars.

Ed Mysogland: [00:47:35] I see.

Max Zanan: [00:47:36] Right. So you have to say, well, my goal is to sell cars because, and what is the value proposition that you are bringing in your sales department? And then after, let’s say I bought a new car from you, what is the value proposition that you bring in in your service department? Because I could have had an amazing experience buying a car. And then I come for service and experience is terrible. I will never be back to buy another client, that dealership, unfortunately. Even though the sales experience was phenomenal. That’s how interconnected these silos are.

Ed Mysogland: [00:48:19] I get it. So it’s funny you say that because I, for my youngest daughter, she has a little Hyundai Santa Fe. And I took it in for a recall. And it came out and here was four pages long of all the recommended things that we do. And I mean it was like five grand of stuff. And it was like, yeah, I felt I was getting squeezed and what do you do? And so my point to you is you’re right, it left a real bad taste in my mouth that I’m not really certain — I’m all for you making money, I’m just not all for you making money only off of me. It just — there was a lot to what they gave me. And when I vetted it out, I was getting jammed. I mean, that’s the long and the short of it.

And so yeah, but back to your original comment when we first got started, you know, the reputation of the industry is a tough one to overcome. And again, it’s things like that that cause it. So I’m with you. But to your point, the good dealerships will always sell. Those that have the value proposition that have the synergy between the silos, I’m a hundred percent with you that those are the ones that you’re looking for, and those are the ones that will get the premium, you know?

Max Zanan: [00:50:08] Yeah, exactly. And the other piece of advice that I can give, it’s a tough pill to swallow. I encourage every dealership owner to mystery shop his own business. And you can really have a heart attack doing it.

Ed Mysogland: [00:50:32] Yeah, that makes sense. So what’s the best way that listeners can find you, other than all you have to do is put Max in Google and you got the first few pages? So what’s the best way we can do that?

Max Zanan: [00:50:50] I mean, listen, as I told you before, you know, I am a one man show. And the best way to get in touch with me is just call me. I actually answer the phone. There’s no answering service. There’s no secretary. I know how to use a phone. So I actually, like, hold back.

Ed Mysogland: [00:51:10] Got it. So you kick it old school. That’s –.

Max Zanan: [00:51:13] Yeah. Yeah.

Ed Mysogland: [00:51:14] Well, I will have everything we talked about as well as a link to your website and everywhere that you can find Max. Including, if you’re all right, I’ll have your phone number in the show notes. So, Max, you a hundred percent lived up to the hype I was hoping you would. It was awesome. I so enjoyed our time together.

Max Zanan: [00:51:42] Thank you. Thank you.

Ed Mysogland: [00:51:43] So thanks so much for being on.

Outro: [00:51:46] Thank you for joining us today on How To Sell Your Business podcast. If you want more episodes packed with strategies to help sell your business for the maximum value, visit howtosellabusinesspodcast.com for tips and best practices to make your exit life changing. Better yet, subscribe now so you never miss future episodes. This program is copyrighted by Myso Inc. All rights reserved.

 

 

Selfie

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Selfie
North Fulton Studio
Selfie
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Selfie

Selfie

Complaining about getting “what you’re worth” is the pricing version of taking a selfie. When you focus on creating value for clients, and you value price your services relative to that value, you’ll get paid “what you’re worth.”

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] Hello. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. James Clear, who’s the author of Atomic Habits, said, “The more time you spend complaining about what you deserve, the less time you have to focus on what you can create. Focus on what you can control.”

John Ray: [00:00:21] Well, I ran across this quote in Clear’s newsletter – which I highly recommend, by the way – and it made me think of a Price and Value version of the same quote. Try this on for size, “The more time you spend complaining about not getting paid what you’re worth, the less time you have to focus on the value you can create for others. Focus on the value you can create for your prospects and your clients.”

John Ray: [00:00:51] When someone tells me they want to get paid what they’re worth, it’s the pricing version of a selfie. They often miss the key point. It’s not about them and what they think they’re worth. Clients perceive their value on their own. Sure, you can influence client’s perception of the value that you offer, but clients alone have the ultimate decision on whether the value they perceive that they’re receiving exceeds the price you are asking. If so, they buy. If not, they don’t.

John Ray: [00:01:27] So, focus on what you can control. Identifying ways to deliver value and then dishing it out. Now, if you maintain that perspective, here’s the delicious irony I’ve found that you’ll get, if delivering value is your constant focus, you’ll have a lot less to worry about when it comes to getting paid what you think you’re worth.

John Ray: [00:01:54] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you go to pricevaluejourney.com, you can find a link to the show archive of this podcast series. You can also find this series on your favorite podcast app, and I’d be honored if you’d subscribe to the show, if you haven’t yet already done so.

John Ray: [00:02:14] You can also receive updates on my upcoming book. It’s called The Price and Value Journey: Raising Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using the Generosity Mindset. The release date is September 2023. I’m looking forward to getting that out. You can again sign up for updates there at pricevaluejourney.com. You can also email me directly, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translates into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

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A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast
North Fulton Studio
A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast
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A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

A Simple Three Question Test on Whether Your Business Needs a Podcast

Does your professional services business need a podcast? In most cases, after you take this simple three question test, the answer will be “yes.”

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:01] Hello. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. There’s a lot involved in not just starting, but maintaining a successful podcast. Before you take the leap, it’s important, as with any other marketing tactic, to do your homework and not make an impulsive decision.

John Ray: [00:00:20] Here are three questions to use as a guide. If you answer yes to all three of these questions, you probably need a podcast for your business. Question one, Do you answer yes to the question of your business being a high ticket B2B professional services practice?

John Ray: [00:00:41] The primary way of a high ticket B2B professional services provider builds their business is through relationships. There’s a direct correlation between the growth and high quality relationships that a solo or small professional services firm experiences in the overall growth in the business itself.

John Ray: [00:01:02] Properly executed, a podcast can deepen existing connections and open the door for brand new relationships in a low key and elegant manner. There’s a profound difference between using interruption marketing or social media to sell your service versus shining the light on someone else, allowing them to talk about themselves and their business, and giving them a piece of content they can point to with pride and use in their own marketing.

John Ray: [00:01:34] Question number two, Do you answer yes to the question of whether clients for your business or your vertical do a lot of research before they buy?

John Ray: [00:01:45] The more complex and higher priced the service or product, the more likely it is that a prospective client will do a lot of research to understand the source and depth of their issues, and develop an understanding of what to look for in the ideal services provider to solve those problems.

John Ray: [00:02:05] For example, a business owner with a complicated business or personal tax return who is also looking for business advisory services is highly likely to do extensive research on a services provider even if that professional has been referred by a trusted third party. A podcast builds authority and allows someone to get to know you in a way that a blog or a website simply cannot match.

John Ray: [00:02:35] Question three, Do you answer yes to the question of is your perceived authority an important aspect of your marketing?

John Ray: [00:02:46] A high quality, consistent podcast allows you to showcase your expertise in a direct and engaging way. The consistency of a podcast over time builds trust as well. Trust, which only deepens as the library of back episodes grows. Further, as a former local broadcast news anchor once said to me, Whoever is behind the mic in the middle of a city, in his case, or a particular group or industry is viewed as a figure of authority in that city or in that group or industry. If you own the mic, he said, then you’re at the center of it all.

John Ray: [00:03:31] So, if the answer to all three of these questions is yes, then I think you should give serious and thoughtful consideration to launching your own podcast.

John Ray: [00:03:44] I’m John Ray on the Price and Value Journey. If you go to pricevaluejourney.com, you can find a link to get updates on my upcoming book to be released in the summer of 2023. The name of the book is The Price and Value Journey: Raising Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset Method.

John Ray: [00:04:08] If you have not subscribed to the show on your favorite podcast app, I’d be honored if you would do so. And, obviously, you can find the show by searching Price Value Journey on your favorite podcast app. And you can find the show archives there as well. If you’d like to connect with me directly, feel free, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translates into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Value Selling: An Interview with Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value Solutions

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Mike Wilkinson
North Fulton Studio
Value Selling: An Interview with Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value Solutions
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Mike Wilkinson

Value Selling: An Interview with Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value Solutions

The two terms solo and small professional services providers may dislike the most are “sales” and “business development.” If that describes you, then yes, you’ll want to understand the concept of value selling by listening to this episode.

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert and Founder of Axia Value Solutions, joined host John Ray to define value selling, why it isn’t more widely practiced, how value selling makes business development conversations easier and improves your ability to defend your pricing, why introverts may have an advantage in employing value selling, why not employing value selling might actually be unethical, and much more.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

Axia Value Solutions

At Axia Value Solutions they focus on value!

If you:

  • Tend to discount too much or struggle to defend your prices
  • Have product first rather than customer first sales conversations
  • Lose business even when you know you have the best solution
  • …or many other issues

…then understanding value and what it means to your customers is going to be a big part of addressing these.

Value is defined by your customer, not by you.  If you want to sell your value effectively – and get paid for it – you have to understand your customers, in detail.  The Value Sales Process will help ensure you approach the sale in a structured way and transform your approach.

Understanding customer value aspirations will help you differentiate, price and communicate your offer more powerfully and effectively.

Company website | LinkedIn

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert, Founder, Axia Value Solutions

Mike Wilkinson, The Value Selling Expert, Founder, Axia Value Solutions

Mike has been an independent consultant since 1988. His passion revolves around value, especially Value-based selling. Mike is the “Price Getter”, working with sales teams and helping them discover new ways of learning and communicating value, so that money isn’t left on the table, and you are rewarded for the value you deliver.

He has worked with organizations of all sizes, helping them maximize the effectiveness of their sales efforts, both in terms of sales process and skills.

Mike has delivered training all over the world, speaking regularly at conferences, seminars and meetings with business audiences throughout the UK, Europe, UAE, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, USA, Singapore and Australia.

He has also published three bestselling books on value and is member of the Institute of Sales and Marketing Management, the Professional Speakers Association (PSA) and the Global Speakers Federation.

LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] And hello again, everyone. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. And I’m delighted today to welcome Mike Wilkinson with us. Mike is with Axia Value, and he’s been an independent consultant since 1988. And his passion revolves around something I happen to love, value and, especially, value based selling.

John Ray: [00:00:24] Mike is the “Price Getter” – I love that term. He works with sales teams and helps them discover new ways of learning and communicating value so that money isn’t left on the table and that you are rewarded for the value you deliver. He works with organizations of all sizes and trains all over the world. I think the only continent he hasn’t been on to do sales training must be Antarctica based on that bio, but we’ll ask Mike about that. And he’s also published three bestselling books on value. Mike Wilkinson, Axia Value, thank you so much for joining us.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:04] John, it’s a pleasure. It’s good to be with you.

John Ray: [00:01:06] It’s great to have you on. Let’s get straight to it. What is value selling? How do you describe that?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:17] I think at its simplest, value selling really is an approach that aims to quantify the value of your solution to a customer in economic terms, and really highlighting the advantages of what you do when compared with competing alternatives. That’s the way I look at it. So, it’s simply about economically demonstrating your value to the customer for your solution.

John Ray: [00:01:45] So, what was the light bulb moment for you and your journey when you realized that this was really the way to go when it comes to sales and business development?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:01:58] Well, I think there are a whole host of things that go around value selling. And I think perhaps the most important is that value selling, it has to be a collaborative effort between you and your customer. It’s not something you do at the customer. It’s something you do with them. And that, I think, was particularly important.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:02:17] Because I was going on that sales journey and I was doing some training, and the lightbulb really went off in a conference in Copenhagen. And I was talking at this conference with a group of about 120 salespeople. And the night before, we were all having dinner, and they’re all from the same company. And every single person I spoke to when I asked them what it was they sold, they told me they sold value, “We sell fantastic value.” And I thought this lot have all been brainwashed. And I thought that that’s just amazing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:02:51] So, the next day, in the morning for my first session, I scrapped completely what I was going to do. This is a classic example of planning well, but scrap what it’s going to do. I said, “Guys, last night I was really surprised to hear everybody told me that value was what you were delivering. So, what I would like you to do for me is tell me what value is. So, what I want from you is an Oxford English Dictionary definition beginning with the words value is. So, value is what?”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:03:23] And there were about ten tables, and I charged each table with coming up with a definition of value written on a card that I could then read out to everybody, and we would determine which was the best or we’d amalgamate them all together.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:03:38] And the interesting thing was, I think to start with, given that they’d all tell me they sold value and that was what they did, was the difficulty they were having in articulating just what value was. It was extraordinary. It took probably between 20 minutes and a-half-an-hour to get all of the cards back. And I decided I just take the cards and I’d read them all out one after the other, and we’d see how it went. And that’s what I started to do.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:04:06] And the thing that struck me straight away was that they were all different. I mean, clearly there were similarities, but they were all different. And then, I got to a card, which is about fifth or six in this pack, and I turned it over and I looked at it, and I thought, “This is absolutely ridiculous. I can’t read this out.” But I thought, “Well, I’d better have a go.” And it had four words on it. This is 20 minutes to 30 minutes work, four words, and two of them were the ones I’d given them which is value is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:04:38] So, I read it out and I said, “We’ve got this definition, and it is value is a mystery.” Wow. But the more I thought about it, the more I began to realize that that is absolutely exactly what value is. And our job as salespeople is to solve the value mystery. Because the reality is everybody defines value in a different way. So, until we understand how the customer we are talking to defines value, to all intents and purposes, it is a mystery.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:05:20] So, our absolutely number one task is to solve that value mystery, and that is how I got into value. I thought, I’ve cracked it. That’s it. So, the job is done. Solve the value mystery. But I very quickly realized that the job was anything but done. And it was very much the start of a fairly complicated but enjoyable journey. So, there you go, that’s how I got involved.

John Ray: [00:05:49] I love that. Because a lot of the folks that listen to this series are real left brained. They got what they want, left brained data-driven answers. And that’s not always the case with value. It can be part of it, but not always the case. Right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:06:10] Well, I think for anybody who’s sort of data-driven, I say to the guys who come on the programs that I run, is, if you think about value selling as a problem solving exercise, the starting point is you have to understand the problem. You cannot wander around with a solution in search of a problem. What you need to do is to understand the problem and then tailor your solution to address it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:06:36] And for the vast majority of people that I speak to and the vast majority of salespeople particularly, that is an absolutely extraordinary transformation. Intellectually, they buy into a recognition that they need to understand what the problem is first. But practically, they do exactly the opposite. And they lead with product first conversations with customers.

John Ray: [00:07:01] Now, related to what you just said, I want to tie that to what you and I talked about before we came on, which is that – unless we’ve lost them all, all the listeners that I have that are solo and small professional services firms. I’m not even sure they hit download when they saw the term selling because a lot of them don’t like that word. And as I mentioned to you, business development comes in a close second to the word they don’t like – what you’re suggesting is forget selling, forget business development. If you just think of it as value problem solving, maybe that’s the way that you ought to think about this, Mr. or Ms. Professional Services Person.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:07:52] I mean, I think it depends how you define selling. And even dealing with the corporate clients that I deal with, I still find a lot of people do not like to be called salespeople. I don’t understand it, because whether you’re a small business person or you’re a corporate, you stand or fail by your ability to generate leads and convert them. And that, in my book, is selling. But call it whatever you want.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:08:19] I think if you look at it as helping your customers make good buying decisions, that’s what you’re trying to help them to do. And to do that, you have to understand them. You can’t help anybody to improve what they’re doing if you don’t understand what it is they are trying to do. So, I think it is an important thing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:08:38] And I think we also talked about this difference between that sort of slightly more introverted and that extroverted approach. And I actually think introverts have an advantage. I think particularly with value selling, they have an advantage, because introverts tend to listen. They tend to take things that a little bit more slowly. They tend to be, I think, a little bit more data-driven. They are better at problem solving. Whereas, us, extroverts, tend to go blundering in rather over excitedly and just want to get to the end. We’re just desperate to get to the end.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:09:14] The reality often is that it’s the old tortoise and the hare story, isn’t it? You know, the extroverts screaming off into the distance, whereas the tortoise is just gently coming along behind and gets to the finish line first. That’s likely anyone.

John Ray: [00:09:30] No, it makes perfect sense. And it’s not just patience, but I think in general – we’re making generalities here, folks. So, let’s acknowledge that – extroverts, a lot of them are people pleasers. So, maybe they don’t want to get to what some of the real problems are that they may think that person across the table from them really doesn’t want to talk about. Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:10:01] I think it does make sense. And I think as good value sellers, we have to be challenging as well. You have to make the customer think. If you actually dedicate yourself to helping your customer improve their business and making good business decisions for themselves, you have to challenge them and make sure that they’ve gone through that intellectual process themselves to get to a point where they recognize the problem, they recognize the scale of the problem, and the need to address it, and then you help them to actually come up with a solution that’s effective.

John Ray: [00:10:37] So, when I was referring to data-driven – I want to dive into that a little more for folks, and this gets back to value being a mystery – I think a lot of people understand that value has definable outcomes and that that can be captured with data. But value is also full of intangibles that can’t really necessarily immediately be captured as value – be captured in that, I mean.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:14] Yeah. Absolutely right.

John Ray: [00:11:15] Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:17] It makes perfect sense. It actually really picks up on the discovery that I made after I’d discovered that value is a mystery and our job was to solve the value mystery. That was my eureka moment. It didn’t take long to realize that actually you needed something else.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:34] And what you need is a framework to think about value, because it’s quite difficult to sort of put your finger on what the constituent elements of value are. So, we came up with this concept called the value triad. And the value triad identifies three key areas of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:11:57] And as I go through this, John, if your listeners want to think about how this applies in their business, it might well be quite helpful from their point of view, because I think there are some questions we have to ask ourselves.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:12] And let me just very quickly explain the value triad. The three elements of the value triad are revenue or performance gain, cost reduction, and emotional contributions. So, those are the three component elements of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:24] So, if we start with revenue gain or performance improvement, the question you need to ask yourself is how does what you do help your customers improve their revenue. And you should make a list of those things. You should clearly identify how you think what you do helps your customers improve their performance or improve their revenue. Because we need to know that in advance.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:12:53] Logically, the next bit, the cost reduction bit, the question is the same, how does what you do help your customer to reduce their costs. And to pick up on what you were saying, John, those two are objective. They’re measurable. You can put a number on them, and you should. Because it’s much more persuasive to say to somebody, “I can help you improve your revenue by $50,000 a year and reduce your cost,” by whatever it might be. Rather than just say, “Well, we can help you improve your revenue.” Because most customers want to know by how much and by when, because that’s a lot more persuasive. And anyway, anybody can make airy fairy promises.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:13:40] So, those are the two very tangible elements of value, revenue gain, and cost reduction. The bit that you you referred to is we had a real struggle coming up with a name for this, but we finally settled on emotional contribution. I’m still not entirely sure why, but it’s worked really well. And they are the intangible things, the subjective things. They are things like trust, credibility, the quality of the relationship, the removal of risk, your brand value, their desire to want to do business with you personally rather than somebody else.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:14:13] And I was thinking about this only the other day, and I’m thinking about what it is that people buy, the intangible element that people buy. I think, more than anything else is peace of mind. And I really think people buy peace of mind. They don’t want to buy hassle. They don’t want to buy risk, or difficulty, or things that are hard to use. They want peace of mind. When I make a decision to buy from you, I want it to be a great decision and I want to not have to worry about it now. Now, that the decision is made, I just want it to happen.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:14:50] So, that’s it. That was the value triad. Revenue gain, so how does what you do help you improve your customers revenue; cost reduction, how can you help them to reduce their costs; the emotional contribution, how can you just make them feel really good about doing business with you.

John Ray: [00:15:06] All that sounds great. I’m a solo, small professional services firm owner. I’ve never had sales training. I’m used to talking about what I do, but not necessarily digging into value. So, give me some tips on how I can start this journey.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:15:36] Right. It’s interesting. You and I also spoke well, I have to admit, guys, the vast majority of my client base are corporates. So, people say to me, “How can you actually relate to what solopreneurs have to do?” And I say, “Well, because I’m one of those more so. I am what my business. I have to do all of these things myself. I relate, absolutely.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:03] And I think the thing that you said right at the outset is the heart of the problem. We’re really good at talking about what we do. But actually what we’re not really good at very often is talking about what the customer wants done. And that’s the starting point, you have to understand the problem before you deliver the solution. And you have to build value in the need to have that solution delivered. And I think for many of us, that’s the difficulty.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:33] I think the tips that I give to people really are, don’t get hung up on it. When you meet a customer for the first time, all you should be thinking about is, I’m going to have a chat. Even if it’s not physically happening, but metaphorically, I’m going to sit down with a cup of coffee over the table from somebody and we’re going to have a chat.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:16:53] And what you are going to do as the SME, the small business, is you are going to show genuine interest and curiosity in understanding your potential customer’s business. And you are not going to talk about you. The focus is entirely on the customer and their business. Because it won’t have happened to them very often, because most people will go in and just talk about their products. So, it would be refreshing for them to have somebody to talk to where they can actually share that sort of information.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:17:30] And as you take them on that conversation or journey, if you like, clearly, there’s a structured process that you can utilize to do that because we know where we’re trying to get them to. We’re trying to get them to a point where they recognize that they have a problem or an issue that is big enough to need to be addressed.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:17:53] Because I think one of the problems with lots of businesses is I don’t know any business that doesn’t have lots and lots of problems. I mean, every business has problems and issues. But the vast majority of them are simply not important enough to do anything about. You just learn to live with them. You find ways of working around them. Well, you want to make sure that the problems that you can solve are the ones that your customer considers to be important enough to actually take action on. So, part of our conversation when we’re taking on that journey is to get them to a point where they recognize that.

John Ray: [00:18:33] And that may not be immediate. I mean, we’ve got to be comfortable in the idea that if we’re really genuinely trying to problem solve and help that customer, do what’s right for that client sitting in front of us that we’ve had this chat with, that may involve saying I’m not the answer for your problem today.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:18:57] I think that’s absolutely right, the last thing. It’s tough, isn’t it, that we’re in a time where, frankly, any business looks reasonably attractive for a lot of people. And it’s quite hard turning stuff down. But I think the starting point for all of this is to recognize that not every opportunity is a good opportunity for you. Some opportunities can cause more trouble than they’re worth. So, I think it’s quite key.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:19:27] And, again, you don’t want to sell – I use the word sell advisedly in this context, John – you don’t want to be selling things to people where you know in your heart of hearts it’s not the right solution for them.

John Ray: [00:19:44] Or you’ve had to talk yourself into it that it’s the right solution and you’re reading from right to left when it comes to the revenue to your firm.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:19:56] Yeah. I think that’s right. I mean, I’ve got so many sort of stories of people turning down business opportunities. But then, over time, the right opportunity comes along. And this is about building business over the long term, I think, for most of us. We’re not in the business of one off sales. We’re in the business of selling today and, hopefully, building on that relationship and selling more in the future. You don’t do that by selling them things that don’t really address the issues that they’re facing.

John Ray: [00:20:30] There’s a difference, I think, Mike – and correct me if you think I’m wrong, because I’m often wrong, so correct me – it seems to me between that prospective client who maybe didn’t get referred to us with something in mind that they want versus that referral or however it came, however that client got to the point they’re sitting in front of us, where they’ve got something in mind of what they want. And what they want may not be what they need. But we’re so anxious as services providers to get to the sale, if I can still use that word, to get to the engagement agreement that maybe we short circuit the value conversation. Does that make sense?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:21:35] It makes perfect sense. And it’s a big mistake. Well, for two reasons. First of all, if you short circuit the value conversation, you’ve failed to take advantage of the opportunity to build value into your solution. And secondly, you are absolutely right, just because somebody comes to you and says “I need a,” it doesn’t mean that is actually what they need. They need it given their perception of the problem. But they are probably not experts in the particular area that your people or your audience is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:22:11] So, whenever somebody comes to me and says I need sales training, for example, the first thing I want to know is, why do you think that? What is the problem that you think sales training is going to solve for you? So, I think it’s always very valuable to take a step back and just make sure that not only they understand what their motivation is behind thinking that this is the solution, but that we understand it as well.

John Ray: [00:22:41] And when we short circuit that conversation, it seems to me what gets short changed is the emotional side, right? Because that’s really what takes the longest part of the conversation to really dive in and get to.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:22:59] I think you’re right. And I think the interesting thing about value selling, and another reason why I find it a really useful way to go, is that, if you do not have, if you failed to build a relationship with the customer, they will not give you the information that you need to help to come up with the best solution for them and deliver the best value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:23:22] Value selling is based upon a collaborative relationship. I think it is anyway. If they won’t collaborate with you, if they won’t share with you the challenges and the issues that they got, then it’s going to be very hard to really deliver the best possible value that we could.

John Ray: [00:23:41] So, how do you keep yourself from short circuiting, I guess, number one? And number two is, how do you keep a prospective client patient when you’re trying to get into the emotional responses they’re going to have to the solution you’re potentially going to give them? Because they call up wanting that thing, whatever that thing is, and they kind of want to get you to that, because they’re in a hurry and they want to get there. So, mentally, how do you keep yourself on task, I guess, is the question.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:24:24] It’s funny, actually, you should say that, because frequently salespeople will say to me, What’s the one piece of advice that you give me to really improve? And I say, over the years, I’ve come up with all sorts of things. But I’m now at a stage where the one piece of advice I give to sellers is slow down. Slow down. It is not a race. Your job is to come up with the best possible solution for your customer. Do not race to the end with your solution. Take the time to understand what it is.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:06] I mean, if you don’t slow down, you’re not listening. If you’re not listening, you’re not really understanding what is going on. One of the key skills is the ability to summarize back to your customer your understanding of their situation. So, you’ve had this conversation, so you can say to the customer at the end of it, or you should say, “If I understand you correctly, John, the main issues you’re facing at the moment are this and this. And the impact of failing to address them at the moment is this on the business. Have I got that right?” “Yeah.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:41] So, we’ve agreed that if we could really solve that problem, there’d be some real value to you. So, are you committed now to doing something about it? Because the one thing I want more than anything else is commitment. Because what I don’t want is to be wasting my time.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:25:59] The other thing is send me a proposal. For people to say, “Well, send me a proposal.” Well, what for? No. No. Because very often, the send me a proposal is to get rid of you or to just get a benchmark price in place. You know, it’s too easy to be taken down rabbit holes by customers. So, I want to get a customer to a point where they’re committed to doing something. Because otherwise, I’m just wasting my time, money, and effort in pursuing lost causes. None of us can afford that time.

John Ray: [00:26:36] That’s for sure. We don’t have time for that. Mike Wilkinson is with us folks. His firm is Axia Value. And he’s an expert on value based selling. And we have to say that pricing is part of this. I mean, if you’re selling by value – or I’ll give a nod to my folks that don’t like to sell – if you’re talking about value, it’s easier to price, right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:27:08] Yeah. It’s easier to price. It’s easier to defend your prices. I’m sure some of the people who are listening probably operate off a price list. And the problem that they have is that they are under constant downward pricing pressure so that they will go in and they’ll do the job, they’ll come up with the solution. The customer say, “Well, how much is that?” They’ll tell them. They say, “Flipping neck. I’m sure you can do something about that. You must be able to shave a few dollars off that.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:27:38] And the problem is that most of us operate under what I call a discount default. And that is, the minute we get put under any price pressure, the first thing we do is to drop our prices. And our customers know that. They know. I talk to procurement and buyers all the time, and I’ve never come across one who will not say to a supplier, You’re too expensive. And the answer is not because you’re too expensive. It’s because – sorry about that, John. It’s not because you’re too expensive. It’s because they just know from experience that virtually every time they say that, they get a discount. So, they’re not going to not tell you you’re too expensive.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:28:25] But it takes a lot of confidence when somebody says to you, “How much is that?” And you say to them, “It’s $10.” And they say, “That’s too expensive,” for you to look them in the eye and say, “No, it isn’t.” If you actually look at the value that we deliver, as we’ve just discussed, what it is you are going to gain as a result of our solution, I go as far as to say that probably $10 is not quite expensive enough.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:28:51] Now, bizarrely – and I have tested this out with lots and lots of people. And there’s one guy in particular after we’d been doing this for some time, he said to me, “You know, I have learnt something quite extraordinary.” He said that you really do need to have real confidence in doing this. But for the first time, when customers have said to me I’m too expensive, I’ve looked them in the eye and said, No, I’m not. When you think about the value that we’ve just discussed that we are going to deliver for you, we are most positively not too expensive at $10. And he said, in probably 80 to 90 percent of cases, they’ve nodded and said, “Yeah. Okay.” Because they were trying it on.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:29:34] And I said to him, I said, “Well, have you ever lost any business by that?” He said, “Yes, I have. To be honest, I have lost some business. He said, “But I can almost guarantee that the business I have lost has been the lower quality business, the people who were always going to be a pain to deal with. And in 90 percent of those cases, within six months, they’ve come back to me.”

John Ray: [00:29:56] The ones that really wanted to come back, have come back.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:30:01] Guys, we underestimate our value. If you’ve done a really good job of understanding what it is that is valuable for your customers and you’ve demonstrated how you can deliver that value, then you should be rewarded for that value. But I speak to SMEs too often who say, “Well, we can’t put our prices up.” And I say, “Well, hang on a minute. Let’s just take a step back. Is your solution a good solution?” “Yes, it is.” “Is it every bit as good as or if not better than your competitors?” “Yes, it is.” “And is your price therefore higher than your competitors?” “No, it isn’t.” “Why isn’t it? If your solution is better than your competitor’s solution, why isn’t your price higher?” “Well, because if we charge more, we’d lose the business.” “How do you know?”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:30:51] It comes down to confidence. And I think we communicate confidence in a variety of ways. But your body language alone will tell the customer whether they’re in for a discount or not. Because for most of us, the one thing we don’t want to have to talk about is price. And the minute that price comes up as a subject of discussion, our body language changes. That confidence of talking about our product disappears now, because we’re now asked to talk about something that, frankly, is just a little distasteful. But it all starts to go wrong. I’ve sat in meetings with people and the customer has said, “What’s the price?” And the sales guy has actually started by apologizing.

John Ray: [00:31:33] Oh, dear.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:31:34] You have got to be proud of your prices. If you truly believe that your solution is a great solution, delivers loads of value for your customer, why on earth shouldn’t you be proud of the price that you charge? Because you should be rewarded for the things that you’re doing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:31:58] I mean, my sort of strapline about the value challenge, the value challenge for me is about understanding, communicating, and delivering outstanding customer value and getting paid for it. And it’s the I’m getting paid for it bit at the end that is so important. And I just find that when I talk to SMEs, particularly small businesses, they underestimate the value that they deliver. And you will always underestimate the value that you deliver if you fail to understand the value that your customer is looking for.

John Ray: [00:32:35] Well, let’s talk specifically to this group here of professional services providers. They’re essentially pricing bullets between their ears. I mean, that’s their factory floor. They’re not pricing the product. And in their case, they’re working for themselves in their own business, they can’t point upward to the corporate suite and say, “Well, it’s those fools that set this price. I didn’t have anything to do with it.” They’re pricing themselves, essentially. And so, how do you have that confidence when that conversation turns toward pricing, how do you steal yourself for that point and how do you develop that over time?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:33:23] I think it goes back to what we’ve been saying before, John, if you go in with a product first approach, where you go in and you start to talk to your customer about your wonderful products and services, you’ve failed to build the value that you’re going to use in defending your prices.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:33:41] If you go in and you talk to your customer about the challenges, the issues, the opportunities that they’re facing, what the value of those is to them, and the conversation is absolutely customer first, then you build a foundation upon which you can put your price. But if you fail to do that, it’s a lot more difficult.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:34:04] So, for me, value pricing is dependent, as you said, on value selling. It’s the value bit at the front that’s really important. And you said earlier that I build myself as the price getter. And it’s when I had my partner before he retired, our business had two parts to it. It had the pricing bit and the selling bit. And we always said that the pricing bit is the price setting bit. And my bit was the price getting bit, because you set your prices, but you’ve got to get them. And that was pretty much it.

John Ray: [00:34:41] Yeah. No. And it’s all well and good to say “I want to get what I’m worth,” but you really cannot do that without some touchstone on how that gets measured that the client will understand. That’s the key point, right?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:35:00] Yes. Absolutely right. And we all know that we don’t operate in a vacuum. You do need to understand what the sort of general market place position is in terms of pricing for what you do. But that does not mean that you have to be at it. You know, if the market price is $10 and you’re delivering more value than the majority of the $10 suppliers, then you should be charging 11 or 12. And you can defend it by demonstrating you are delivering more value to the customer than the cheaper people are doing.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:35:38] We’re too easily dragged into price battles where we don’t need to be. And I don’t, in any way, want to undermine the difficulty or it isn’t an easy option. But to give away your hard earned time and cash simply because we fail to understand and communicate our value effectively is a shame.

John Ray: [00:36:04] I want to switch to a different objection that I hear, and it relates to pricing and professional services providers. And I hear the objection to value pricing. And by definition, extension value selling. That, I don’t want to charge different prices to my clients because I’m taking advantage of them when I do that.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:36:40] I mean, I have heard this a lot. But, actually, I don’t believe that to be the case. The whole concept behind value selling for me is to understand the value that the customer is looking for, deliver as much of that as I possibly can, and get rewarded appropriately for the value that I am delivering.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:02] And every customer is different. The reason value is a mystery is that what value means to each customer, and indeed to the people within the customer is different for all of them. And so, if you’re dealing with the finance director or the finance VP, his perception will be different to the ops people, to the sales folks, to the marketing folks. They all have a different perspective of value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:28] So, as long as you are understanding and delivering outstanding value to them, you should be rewarded appropriately. Sometimes people say, “Well, yeah, we’d much rather operate off a straight price list because that way it’s fair to everybody.” It is fair to everybody. Everybody except you. And that is the point, you want to do a great job for your customers.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:37:54] A larger client in the telecoms business, we went and we were doing some work for them. And they were concerned about value. And when they explained to us what they did and the value that they delivered to their customers, which was absolutely huge, they were simply not getting rewarded for it at all.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:38:20] And it’s a mindset thing. I can understand why people think it is fairer to charge everybody exactly the same thing. First of all, everybody isn’t exactly the same. Their value aspirations are all different. And it’s fair to everybody except you. You’re the one person who is not being rewarded for the value that you’re delivering.

John Ray: [00:38:42] I want to ask you a third rail question. This is one that may get some folks fired up. Is it unethical – I use that word deliberately – not to sell based on value?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:39:00] It’s a very interesting thought. I think because the nature of value selling is that it is collaborative, I think it is a much more effective way of approaching the whole sales conversation. Now, realistically, depending upon the nature of your business and the nature of your clients, you won’t necessarily be able to sell on value to all of them.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:39:25] I mean, you may have some clients who are totally transactional. They don’t want a conversation. They want a bolt, a widget, or whatever it is. They just want to pick the phone up, place the order, done, finished with. They don’t want a conversation about it. But there are other customers who really would value a detailed conversation with you because you are the expert in your field, and I want your help and advice to make sure that the decisions that I make are good ones. And I think in that context, the value selling, it’s unethical not to do it. Because potentially you are going to allow your customer to make business decisions which are not as good as they could have been had you made them collaboratively.

John Ray: [00:40:09] I love that point. I want to throw in just a quick question here as our time goes down, because you deal with corporate clients – you know, our solo and small professional services folks don’t always get this situation, but sometimes they do – requests for proposals. How do you advise folks to deal with an RFP?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:40:45] All right. Yes. It’s a really interesting question. And first of all, I think if I’m a small business, is the RFP coming from a customer that is, if you like, in my target area. Is it somebody that I’ve spoken to already? If I’ve not ever had a conversation with them and an RFP arrives out of the blue, generally speaking, your best approach is to not ignore it, but to write back.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:41:15] I would always write back and I say, “Look, thank you very much indeed for the opportunity for this. But right now, I just don’t feel I understand enough about you and your business to be able to respond effectively. If you want to have a conversation with me, I’m happy to do that.” But other than that, I respectfully decline the opportunity to respond. Because otherwise, you’re just going to waste your time. You’ll be used for benchmarking. They’ll look at your price, compare it with the incumbent, smack them over the head a bit until they drop their price, and you’ve got nothing out of it at all. So, that’s my first bit of advice.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:41:51] If it’s one of those requests for proposals, which is templated, if you like, and you have to do each of the steps one by one. Again, if you know nothing more about the customer, I’d be very cautious. Somebody once said to me that an RFP is a brilliant opportunity for your customer to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the potential solutions that you can provide them with are a lot better than what they’re asking for.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:42:20] Often, RFP is a sort of built by committee and they reflect that. The other thing is, often, you’ll see in an RFP, you look at it and you can see your competitors fingerprints all over it. It’s quite obviously written for the benefit of somebody else, and you’re just being used as the benchmark.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:42:44] I had a time some time ago and he had huge numbers. It was a logistics business. Their business was driven by RFPs. And I said to him, “How many of the RFPs that you get do you respond to?” And he looked at me as if I’d gone mad. And he said, “Well, all of them, obviously.” And I said, “Goodness. That must take an incredible amount of time.” He said, “It does. It does.” And I said, “Well, how many of these are you winning? What percentage do you win?” He said, “Well, I don’t know, around 15 percent.”

Mike Wilkinson: [00:43:14] So, I said, “So, 85 percent of the proposals you do, which are taking you an awful lot of time to put together, you’re not winning.” “That’s right,” he said. I said, “Well, if we call that 85 percent your new 100 percent, what percentage of those did you know you had no chance of winning before you even began?” And without even batting an eyelid, he said, “Oh, at least half of them.” I said, “So, why on earth are you responding to them?” And the answer is a classic, he said, “Because if we don’t respond to them, we definitely won’t win them.”

John Ray: [00:43:50] That’s some circular reasoning there.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:43:52] It’s mental reasoning. And it’s mental because what it means is that for those pieces of business that you do want to win, you don’t have the resources available to invest in it because you’re spending so much time responding to opportunities you’re never going to win. Crazy.

John Ray: [00:44:12] Yeah. I’m going to have to take a cold drink of water after listening to that story. Wow. Speaking of stories, though, before we let you go, Mike – and thank you for your time today. This has been terrific – I’d like to give you a chance to talk about you and the value that you bring. If you could share maybe a success story or two that illustrates the great value that you provide, talk about yourself for just a second.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:44:43] You know, I think of all the things that you’ve asked me to talk about, I always find that’s the most difficult of all. I think, because over the years I’ve become so obsessed with talking customer first rather than product first, that I think I’ve trained myself to do what I try to encourage other people to do more than anything else. I think the biggest successes I have is when I’ve worked with people.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:45:09] And I think I mentioned to you before, intellectually, people buy into the fact that they should be talking customer first rather than product first. But as you take them on that journey and they start to practice it and they start to see what happens when they do, one of the biggest things that started I’ve had people ring me up and say, “I am amazed at the opportunities that have suddenly become available.” And I said, “Yeah. But they were always there. It was just that you’d never had the conversation with the customer to discover them.” And that is just fantastic.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:45:41] The telecoms business was a classic. I hate to imagine how much more money they are making as a result of just a couple of very simple conversations that we had. I should definitely have been paid on the basis of value delivered there, shouldn’t I? I didn’t value price that particularly.

John Ray: [00:46:04] Well, you know what? Actually, thank you for that. That’s actually a great point because we’re all on a journey, right? I mean, there’s no formula here that we’re trying mysteriously trying to find in some urn in a cave in Peru. I mean, this is a constant, you can call it battle, you can call it journey, you can call it whatever, to try to get to what value is and how to price relative to that value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:46:32] I think it’s a journey, John. And I think there is a process. I mean, I have a value sales process that I teach and the training that I do. And it’s born out of a desire to simplify the complex, not complicate the simple so that the steps are really easy.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:46:49] So, the first step of the process is to quantify the opportunities, qualify the opportunities. So, the question is, where do you get your leads from because your business stands or falls through your ability to generate quality leads and convert them into business. You know, without that, nothing is going to happen. And it doesn’t matter how much we dislike talking about selling, at some point or another, somebody’s going to bring the business in. Maybe the dirty end of it, but that’s got to be done.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:47:21] So, qualify your opportunities. Because you only want to be working with opportunities that answer two questions for me. Number one, do we want it? In other words, is it attractive to us? Can we make money out of it? Are they going to be good folk to work with? That’s question one. And number two is, realistically, can we win it? So, that’s all you want to know? Do we want this business and can we win it? If the answer to that is yes, now we start to invest some time and effort in winning it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:47:51] And the first bit is value discovery. It is having that conversation with the customer to solve the value mystery. What are the challenges that they’re facing? What’s the impact of those on their business? What will be the value to them of addressing those problems? And are they now permitted, as you’ve taken them on that conversational journey, to doing something about it?

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:14] And the point, again, I would make is that, that part of the conversation is not about you. It’s about them. Once they said, “Yeah. I can really see that there’s something we should be doing about that,” then you move into value demonstration. And this is the point at which you begin to explain to them how you can address the issues that you’ve identified. But this is a conversation. It is not a presentation.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:39] You want to take them on a journey where you point out how you’re going to address the issues they’ve identified and you say to them, “Can you see how how this works? Can you see how that happens? How do you feel if you had this in your business right now?” Value demonstration.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:48:54] Then, once they’ve committed to it, the value demonstration, they said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” You’ve done that negotiation where you’ve been proud of your price and they’ve come on board. Now, you’re into value delivery. And value delivery really, especially for new business, is the point at which the relationship really begins because they’ve never had any experience of dealing with you up to now. Now, they’re going to learn about what it’s really like to do business with you. So, value delivery is important.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:22] And then, for me now, the next step, the final step, is value development, where you develop the relationship, you make the relationship deeper, you cross sell, you upsell, you build for the future. So, that’s it.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:35] So, qualify the opportunity, value discovery, value demonstration, value delivery, and value development. Five steps. Simple relatively.

John Ray: [00:49:46] Yeah. And, again, to bring back the journey theme, it’s practice, right? I mean, you keep after it and it yields results.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:49:59] I can absolutely guarantee, John, that the guys who come on the programs, we do practice this, we do role plays, we do all the things you’d expect us to do. And they then go away and I say to them, you know, meet up again in a week or so’s time. And they say, Yeah, we went straight back into doing what we’d always done. And now that we know better, we are really working on changing. It is a transformation for many of them, just moving away from talking about yourself and your products first.

John Ray: [00:50:33] Yeah. Wow. Mike Wilkinson, folks, Axia Value. Mike, I could go on, but I want to be respectful of your time, and you got some folks you need to go help sell better on value.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:50:47] In fairness, everybody, John knows exactly why I’ve got to go.

John Ray: [00:50:55] Speaking of value, there’s a lot of value coming after this show here. But we’ll just leave that between you to be back. But before I let you go, I want to have you give directions on how our listeners can find out more about you and the great work that you do.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:51:14] I think probably the easiest way is obviously my website, which is www.axia, A-X-I-A, axiavalue.com. I’ve got a whole host of stuff on YouTube, lots of videos on YouTube. If anybody wants to take a look at those, that will take you through the whole of the process. Anybody wants to link in with me on LinkedIn, again, a lot on my LinkedIn profile. I post every day something on value. So, yeah, there are loads of ways. And if anybody wants to go completely mad and drop me a line, you can get me at mw, Mike Wilkinson, mw@axiavalue.com.

John Ray: [00:51:54] Yeah. I’m endorsing the LinkedIn. That’s where I found you, Mike. And you always post great content, so thank you for that.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:03] Well, we connected there, didn’t we, John?

John Ray: [00:52:05] That’s exactly right.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:07] That just shows you there is some value in it.

John Ray: [00:52:11] There’s value in LinkedIn. Some days, I wonder. But in this case, there was. And I’m grateful to you, Mike, for coming on and thank you for the great work you do. Keep it up.

Mike Wilkinson: [00:52:23] Well, thank you for the opportunity, John. I’ve enjoyed it.

John Ray: [00:52:26] Yeah. it’s been fun. Thank you. And folks, again, I’m John Ray, and I’m on the Price and Value Journey just like you are. And if you’d like to check out our complete archive of episodes in this series, go to pricevaluejourney.com and you can find a show archive there. You can also find the show on your favorite podcast app, so just search for Price Value Journey and you’ll find the series there. And I’d be honored if you’d subscribe and share the show if you heard something here.

John Ray: [00:52:56] And I can’t imagine you haven’t gotten a lot of value out of hearing what Mike had to say. If you’ve heard something here that you think would make sense for a colleague, please send it on, share the show. I’d appreciate that. And, also, you’ll find at that link, pricevaluejourney.com, a place to sign up to get updates on the book I have coming out called The Price and Value Journey: How to Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using the Generosity Mindset. So, if that’s something you’re interested in, you can sign up there.

John Ray: [00:53:32] Once again, thank you to Mike Wilkinson from Axia Value. And I’m John Ray. Join us next time on The Price and Value Journey.

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Please Don’t Look in the Closet

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closet
North Fulton Studio
Please Don't Look in the Closet
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closet

Please Don’t Look in the Closet

To be effective in your professional services practice, it’s vital to understand what’s in the “closet” for each of your clients and prospects, and to offer a response free of judgment.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. Have you ever been a guest in someone’s home maybe for a holiday party and asked for the location of the bathroom? Has the response included not only the directions, but a “just don’t look in the closet” response with a chuckle? Well, what your host is thinking at that moment might be a bit more frantic. Please, please, whatever you do, please don’t open that closet door.

John Ray: [00:00:29] Professional services providers, prospects, and clients invariably have a messy closet, if you will. That’s my term for what’s underneath, what the world doesn’t see. That’s particularly true for do it yourselfers that are coming in from out of the cold. It could be they’ve been practicing law without a license, using Google to produce legal agreements, for example. Or that their accounting system of choice involves a Nike shoe box. For coaches, the problem is particularly acute, because getting into the closet, that mess of emotional and mindset baggage a client has been carrying around is the whole point of coaching.

John Ray: [00:01:14] To be effective in your practice, it’s vital to understand where the closets of your clients and prospects are located, and to know what those closets contain. As you engage with a prospect, their closets, if you will, are your competitors. That prospect sitting in front of you has deliberately put themselves in an emotionally vulnerable position. It might have taken them years, literally, to get over the embarrassment and shame they’re feeling such that they are willing to engage an outside provider. The only reason they’ve called you is that the pain emanating from the closet is so bad that they just can’t take it anymore.

John Ray: [00:01:59] Part of your trust equation with that prospect and even after that prospect becomes a client involves giving them comfort that you’re not going to judge. And that no matter how disordered the closet may be, you’ve seen it so many times that it’s not a big deal at all. And these closet exist for our clients, even after they become clients, because they don’t share everything the moment they hire us. There are some things that they just don’t want to get into.

John Ray: [00:02:29] It’s something like what my primary care doctor once told me during an examination. He said, “I’ve seen so many versions of what you’ve got everyday so don’t worry.” What he actually said was a bit more colorful and funny and, therefore, helped me relax. It was a marked contrast with some doctors I visited who acted like they were working on a cadaver. Further, it’s quite likely that the prospect became your client without all the closet doors being opened.

John Ray: [00:03:02] If that client feels safe to share and isn’t worried about judgement, then as the engagement proceeds, they’ll share. And you’ll have the ability to serve them much more effectively, which means deliver more value than you would have otherwise. Our jobs as services professionals is to allow our clients to breathe, relax, and not worry about judgment. If we’re successful in this regard, we’re delivering priceless value.

John Ray: [00:03:33] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you go to pricevaluejourney.com, you can find two things. One is the show archive of this series, as well as a link to get details on a book I have coming out in 2023, The Price Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using The Generosity Mindset. If you’d like to send me an email, please feel free to do so, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Selling a Digital Kidney

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Selling a Digital Kidney
North Fulton Studio
Selling a Digital Kidney
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Selling a Digital Kidney

Selling a Digital Kidney

Pricing an online coaching session–or anything else, for that matter–can turn into the equivalent of selling a digital kidney when that pricing exudes whiffs of desperation. Always remember that prices can act as marketing signals.

The Price and Value Journey is presented by John Ray and produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX®.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ray: [00:00:00] Hello. I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. Some time ago, I noticed a solopreneur services provider offering access to their expertise in a live online session. Given the value of what they claim to offer in this session, from my perspective anyway, I would have expected a three-figure price easily. The price, it was $99. It got worse, though. For a limited time, the offer claimed, seats were available for half that price. Well, my perception of the value they were offering collapsed completely.

John Ray: [00:00:40] Why is that? Well, price is an indicator of value in the minds of buyers, particularly in the absence of any other marketing signal. That price can signal quality or is, as in this case, mediocrity. We’ve all made some version of this mistake. I sure have, anyway, early on in my career. We think that cutting prices attracts buyers. When, in fact, it often repels them. When the gap between price and what’s promised is gapingly wide, it often screams too good to be true, or there’s a catch, or something’s not right here.

John Ray: [00:01:21] Most especially if you’re a solopreneur early on in your practice, one of those something is not right signals that you must be very careful to avoid is the whiff of desperation. Looking like you badly need revenue, any revenue, just to stay alive. Even if you didn’t intend it that way, you might be signaling that you’re selling a digital kidney.

John Ray: [00:01:47] Maybe this individual was trying to attract prospects into their funnel. If so, it’s illustrative of how solopreneurs and smaller firms get tripped up by digital marketing whiz bang. When, in fact, all they need to move the needle for their business is a handful of new or deepened relationships which turn into revenue.

John Ray: [00:02:09] This person might have been better off if they’d handled the limitation a little differently. One idea is limiting the number of seats available at that super low price and holding to that limit even after it’s met. Even with that change, though, the negative signals of poor pricing remain.

John Ray: [00:02:31] I’m John Ray on The Price and Value Journey. If you’d like more information on this podcast, a link to our show archive, or also information on a book I have coming out in 2023 – the book is called The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using the Generosity Mindset – if you’d like information on any of the above, you can go to pricevaluejourney.com, and you’re also welcome to email me directly, john@johnray.co. Thank you for joining me.

 

 

About The Price and Value Journey

The title of this show describes the journey all professional services providers are on:  building a services practice by seeking to convince the world of the value we offer, helping clients achieve the outcomes they desire, and trying to do all that at pricing which reflects the value we deliver.

If you feel like you’re working too hard for too little money in your solo or small firm practice, this show is for you. Even if you’re reasonably happy with your practice, you’ll hear ways to improve both your bottom line as well as the mindset you bring to your business.

The show is produced by the North Fulton studio of Business RadioX® and can be found on all the major podcast apps. The complete show archive is here.

John Ray, Host of The Price and Value Journey

John Ray The Price and Value Journey
John Ray, Host of “The Price and Value Journey”

John Ray is the host of The Price and Value Journey.

John owns Ray Business Advisors, a business advisory practice. John’s services include advising solopreneur and small professional services firms on their pricing. John is passionate about the power of pricing for business owners, as changing pricing is the fastest way to change the profitability of a business. His clients are professionals who are selling their “grey matter,” such as attorneys, CPAs, accountants and bookkeepers, consultants, marketing professionals, and other professional services practitioners.

In his other business, John is a Studio Owner, Producer, and Show Host with Business RadioX®, and works with business owners who want to do their own podcast. As a veteran B2B services provider, John’s special sauce is coaching B2B professionals to use a podcast to build relationships in a non-salesy way which translate into revenue.

John is the host of North Fulton Business Radio, Minneapolis-St. Paul Business Radio, Alpharetta Tech Talk, and Business Leaders Radio. house shows which feature a wide range of business leaders and companies. John has hosted and/or produced over 1,700 podcast episodes.

Coming in 2023:  A New Book!

John’s working on a book that will be released in 2023:  The Price and Value Journey: Raise Your Confidence, Your Value, and Your Prices to Grow Your Business Using The Generosity Mindset. The book covers topics like value and adopting a mindset of value, pricing your services more effectively, proposals, and essential elements of growing your business. For more information or to sign up to receive updates on the book release, go to pricevaluejourney.com.

Connect with John Ray:

Website | LinkedIn | Twitter

Business RadioX®:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

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