Intro: [00:00:07] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios. It’s time for Women in Motion. Brought to you by WBEC West. Join forces, Succeed Together. Now here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: [00:00:27] Lee Kantor here with Dr. Pamela Williamson. Another episode of Women in Motion. And this is going to be a good one. Welcome to the show, Pamela. How are things in your world?

Pamela Williamson: [00:00:38] Things are amazing right now and so I am extremely excited by this episode, which is all things government. We have some great guests today, so there should be some amazing conversation and sharing a lot of tidbits today. Ah, I’m going to go ahead and announce our guest for today. The first one I’d like to announce is Beverly Kuykendall, President of Kuykendall and Associates. Is the established enterprise wide corporate and government growth strategies by leveraging tenured experience, relationships and regulatory knowledge to increase agency penetration through collaborative solution development. Beverly, this is your second time on the show because you brought so much knowledge last time we had to bring you back. So welcome.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:01:23] Thank you.

Pamela Williamson: [00:01:24] Our next guest today is Mellissa Tong, a newscaster turned award winning storyteller, founder and CEO of DuckPunk Productions Inc. Her company works with mid-size and large enterprises to build their brand presence. Mellissa, thank you for joining us.

Mellissa Tong: [00:01:42] Thanks for having me.

Pamela Williamson: [00:01:43] And last but not least, is Jessica Daugherty, the founder and principal of Cause Impact strategy consulting firm. Jessica founded Cause Impact and breaks down the silos and exist that exists between sectors and motivate social innovation. Jessica, thank you for joining us today.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:02:03] Yeah, thank you.

Pamela Williamson: [00:02:04] So as I said earlier, this show is about all things government. And so, Jessica, I know that you have worked with some government or had experience with government contracts in the past. So I’d like to hear about what you think are the biggest barriers for women getting into government contracts.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:02:23] Yeah, I mean, my perspective is unique in that we are a service provider. We don’t create a specific product. So that’s a very big difference too. But so for me, we do a lot of things like strategic planning or policy analysis. I have a master’s in public policy and I had helped a number of large nonprofits do big strategic plans or help them with cross-sector group facilitation. And so LA County Metro had first released an RFP to create transportation school for foster homeless and probation youth exactly up my alley. But in order to apply for one of those contracts, it ended up, you know, being a big procurement, big proposal. It’s a long game, right? You apply for something and start the work like three to 6 to 9 months later. And so as a small company, when I had gotten my first contract that long game, sometimes you’re not fiscally set up for it, right? You’re also not set up for fighting against the big the big boys or the big girls who have really big companies and have whole teams writing proposals, right? So that was a big challenge. And then the other thing too, is once you actually get in and get the contracts, they’re often, you know, net 90 days. So you have to actually float your staff for a long period of time before you actually get the first payment. So there are big buckets of funds that are available, but there’s challenges in the operations and the back office that you have to set up in advance of getting in on government contracting. And it was a steep learning curve. We’ve done it. We did it. But I wish I had listened to a radio show like this in advance of it.

Pamela Williamson: [00:03:50] So. So, Beverly, I know that you spent This is your world. And so any suggestions or thoughts about some of the barriers that Jessica just mentioned?

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:04:01] For me, the barriers on the federal side is, first of all, understanding what agencies actually buy, what you sell, right? When people talk about selling to the government, they go out and they make indiscriminate decisions about who to be presenting and what to be presenting to them. So without understanding your customer and how they buy, why they buy, I think that that and I agree with with with Jessica that it is a very it’s a long game and people think you can do it right away but there’s a lot of pre work that goes into all of that. And I think once people decide what they’re going to sell to what agencies, then they need to understand how to specifically market to that agency in the federal market. It’s far beyond responding to a bid. There’s a lot of pre work that goes into it, getting to know your customer, understanding again, how they buy, who’s in the proper space, what’s the right title. You have contracting officers, you have contracting officer representatives, you have specific users of the product. So there’s a lot of layers that you really do need to work through. But the good thing about the federal government is that all of this is public. It’s just a matter of knowing exactly where to go and making yourself visible enough so that you can develop the right contacts because it really is all relationship driven.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:05:22] I also think that the third thing that I would mention in terms of. How do you what do you do? How do you market? What are some of the barriers? Is not understanding how to truly position yourself in the federal space. There are a number of different things to consider. The rule of two How do you limit the competition so that you’re not competing with just everybody? And all companies are really proud of themselves and talk about, well, we can compete with anybody. But as Jessica pointed out, there’s big boys and there’s big girls. So how do you, as a small or medium sized company, position yourself so that you can truly, truly compete within that framework? There are so many different elements and terms that we don’t have time for me to define things like understanding what your your your NAiCs code is. Government agencies award contracts and solicit under the North American Industrial Classification system. What’s your classification? So just basic understanding of key terms, understanding who buys what you have, understanding how to market to them, and then understanding how to really position yourself so that you can be a successful bidder, if you will.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:06:31] I think what’s really interesting, Beverley, about what you just said is I think there’s also a great leveling of the field of applying to RFPs, right? Because yes, the people on the review committee might know someone and have a prior experience with them, but because they’re reviewing the proposals all at face value, I think it gives smaller businesses an opportunity to go head to head with larger companies to at the same time. So when you know and again, for for local government contracts or not federal, but cities or municipalities, we so often beat out really big consulting firms because we have more time to put really like finesse into our proposals. And often other people don’t do that. And when they read the proposals, they say, Well, this one looks best, they win, you know? And so it’s also a great leveler too, which I think is not always talked about.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:07:24] Agreed. Absolutely. Being able to be in front of them and on the again, on the federal sector, you have things called the rule of two. You have the woman on small business program, you have the small business program, you have executive order 195. So many things that allow you to level the playing field. And I’ll say my story for another time. I’ll just say that you really want to be able to put yourself in the most advantageous position possible. Large companies do it all the time. Small companies can do it as well. And having an opportunity to to meet people face to face certainly does lend itself to that. On the federal side, the government knows that they want to do business with small businesses. They know that small businesses are the backbone of our country. They know that small businesses employ more than all of the large companies combined. So they really feel a responsibility to try to level that playing field. And they have very specific legislation in place to ensure that women owned small businesses, service disabled, veteran owned small businesses, small disadvantaged businesses, and along that socioeconomic gambit, they make sure that those companies have a way to position themselves so that they they can get into the federal government without consistently competing with large, very entrenched companies. So absolutely, getting in front of people will definitely help to level that playing field.

Pamela Williamson: [00:08:44] So we know that. People get contracts typically from people that they know that they’ve built relationships with. You mentioned contract officers. What, in your opinion and I’m speaking to the group at large, what in your opinion, do you think is the best way to build a relationship with a specific contracting officer?

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:09:10] I was going to say, why don’t we hear from Melissa?

Mellissa Tong: [00:09:13] Okay. So I think, Beverly, you’re the best answer this question, but I’ll say a little bit before I pass the mic back to you. So we have been, you know, getting these contracts through advertising agencies. So in a way, we are the subcontractor because a lot of times, you know, you know, the government agencies, they also have an agency of record. And when the agency of record, basically they hold they hold the master agreement, you know, of all you know, of all things branding, advertising related. So we can only come in as a subcontractor. But, you know, that being said, it’s also a good way to to start, you know, working on bigger contracts as a subcontractor with bigger vendors. And then I’ll let Beverly, you know, you answer the question about how to build relationships with contracting officers.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:10:02] I think that we need to start at another level, right? People assume that the contracting officer holds all the power. Well, in in many of these public contracting arenas, the contracting officer awards the contract. They have a warrant which gives them a level of accountability and responsibility to award the contract. But it’s really the person that’s going to be using the service that you have that you need to be getting to. Right. So when I say the core, the contracting officer’s representative is really where you need to be. And many times it’s hard to find those people. I always suggest that we pinpoint specific conferences or workshops or if you have gotten that far, you pick up the phone, you set up an appointment. I have three appointments next week with contracting officers and cause regarding some contracts, it helps you. It helps if you already have the relationship. But at the very beginning, the best way is making sure that you can really perform on a contract. Because imagine what contracting officer wants to award a contract to a company that cannot perform. So they’re going to be looking at your ability to actually do the work. Who are you? What are you what is your past performance look like? Where have you been before? What are your references saying about you? They really have to get to know you. And many times because they don’t, they have to go by what’s on paper. And in the public sector, there’s some public websites or public platforms that they go to. One is called the Contracting Contractor Performance Assessment Reporting system with a contracting officer can go in and look at your past performance because many times one of the last contracts that was awarded was 1.3 billion.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:11:43] A contracting officer is not going to just award that based on paper. They’re going to be looking at references, past performance, who knows you in the industry because their warrant, which is what gives them the ability or allows them to the basically by law, they’re the ones that can award the contract. They’re not going to put that in jeopardy by blindly giving a contract to somebody that they don’t know. So they really do their homework. How do we get to know them? Conferences, workshops. Make sure you have your capability statement that you have an opportunity to talk to them. In federal government, there’s an organization called the National Contract Management Association, CMA, full of contracting officers. They give conferences every year. They do training every year. And I’m sure that I attend those conferences so I can kind of get to know some of the contracting officers and so that they know sometimes there’s 3000 people there, but you can go to specific workshops to kind of get to know the contracting officers that you would like to any kind of venue like that that gives you an entree to contracting officers. I think that’s the best way. But remember, they’ve got thousands of people that are looking to meet with them on a daily basis. So how are you going to set yourself apart?

Jessica Daugherty: [00:12:52] I would I actually think there’s a way to flip it on its head, too, is I think the question is not necessarily how do you get into relationship with the contracting officer, but rather with the agencies or entities with which you want to do business. So in my experience, going to diverse procurement meetings or even meetups, it hasn’t always been beneficial to cause impacts because people who usually hire people to do strategic planning or program development or robust policy analysis, they’re usually director or high up at some certain, you know, level of the government entity. And that contracting officer doesn’t always if you’re explaining something complex, they might point you to the right person, but that person, they’re just going to put out a proposal anyways. So going and giving presentations, going to conferences, being the presenter, we only go to conferences now for presenting and we’re providing training and we’re showing not telling, right? We’re showing our competency and our experience and using case studies and talking about prior work. That’s how we get contacts, right? And then when there’s an RFP or request for proposals that goes out often not the contracting officer, but even the people at the agency who we’ve met will email us and say, Hey, want to make sure you saw this F.Y.I? And then they’ll say, hey, please apply for this, basically. And so it’s because we’re in relationship with the people at the agencies were interested in working with that consummate. Connection and consummate networking is what has really worked out for us to.

Pamela Williamson: [00:14:18] I love the strategy of going to conferences with the sole purpose of presenting in order to enhance your networking. How do you. What are some ways or what’s some advice that you can provide someone who is interested in utilizing that strategy?

Jessica Daugherty: [00:14:36] Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think there’s and it’s also really good for your clients, so ends up getting repeat work back. So a good example is there’s a California economic development conference at the end of this week here in Los Angeles. And currently we’re helping Ventura County’s Workforce Development and Economic Development Collaborative set up a $5 million digital upskilling initiative. That’s perfect thing to present at this conference. So I say, Hey, can we present about the work we’ve been doing together? Um, I’ll make the presentation. You all come. Assemblymember Jackie Irwin is coming with us. So you’re actually a you’re helping your client out. B you’re going to present some great project that then someone else can imagine doing a similar project with you and then you go to the conference and it’s usually either free or reduced price. But if you have to pay for it, it’s that is your marketing, your presentation is your marketing. So one way is to think through what client projects you’re working on they might want to present with you. Another is think on what you can train other people on. So there might be a, you know, a workshop you want to present on how to use, you know, do strategic marketing and storytelling and whatever insert sector, right for Melissa’s work. And she goes to a conference presents that at people in the room are her potential clients. Right. And so that’s just you know and pick what conferences you want to go to where you think the people would would be the most bang for your buck. And I’ve definitely hit some bad ones that were definitely not worth my time, but I’ve lived in one.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:15:58] That’s a great strategy. I would add that for people that are not at Jessica’s level, right, or Melissa’s level, one thing I’ve learned is that on the federal contracting side, there’s always new entrants. And so one of the best ways is to try to garner recognition. And in attending a conference, of course, we do our homework. We figure out who’s going to be what sessions you want to go to. But my philosophy is if you go to a conference and nobody knew you were there, you wasted your time. So how do you how do you work with that? Well, you go to a conference you’ve already studied. You know what workshop, right? Maybe you’re attending a workshop that Jessica’s putting on or that Melissa’s putting on. But there may also be a federal contracting people on that panel or in that session. So what do you do? You make sure that by the time Jessica or Melissa ask you, are there any questions, your question is ready. You raise your hand, you stand up, wait for the microphone if you need to. You briefly say, my name is Beverly Kuykendall. I represent blah, blah, blah. I’m interested and then ask a question that’s relevant to the entire group. Right? You don’t want to waste your time in front of the mic by asking a question that only pertains to your company that’s going to get you a yes or no answer or an answer that says, I don’t know, make sure you’re servicing that entire group by asking a generic question that, you know, most people are thinking about, but that they just don’t have the courage to ask.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:17:23] So gaining attention for yourself. And that way, once you stand up and ask a question, I guarantee you if it doesn’t work this way, somebody call me and let me know. There will be people who will approach you. They will feel like that they know you, They will start to ask you questions. And if you want to approach someone that’s been on the stage, that may be a key person. They’ve seen you stand up and ask your question. They feel like they know you too. So there are things like that that really make it work. And no matter what level you are, entry or mid level. But if you’re not out there and if you’re not already on the stage, stand up and ask a question and don’t dare say, well, the first person didn’t stand up, so I’m just going to sit here, never stand up, use that microphone, use your, you know, five seconds of fame and the best way you can to put your company forward.

Mellissa Tong: [00:18:10] Yeah, I like to piggyback on what Jessica and Beverly said. So I have been speaking a lot lately at national conferences as well. And and Jessica, you’re absolutely right. You know, to be able to, you know, present yourself as a subject matter expert is just the best way to get noticed. But I was advising a client, you know, a couple of months ago, and she said she wanted to speak, but she had no prior, you know, public speaking experience. So I told her, just start small. You know, you’re not going to get to national conferences right away. You know, call up all your local chambers, you know, call up any professional organizations in your area and, you know, offer them, hey, can I come in to offer, you know, you know, education or talk about, you know, this topic? And if they says, yes, you know, keep going. And she did. So she called up, you know, I think, you know, a couple of those places and um, and then she got she got a speaking gig like, you know, within three weeks. And she was so excited about it, you know, So you got to you got to find a way to start small. And once you get going and you, you know, you keep improving on it and then sooner, sooner or later, you know, you’re going to be able to get to the national conference level.

Pamela Williamson: [00:19:20] Now, that’s a great suggestion on how to start small and and build up to a more exposure. So thank you, Melissa. Um, the other question I have, Melissa is just around. As we’ve heard, Beverly and Jessica both talk about, you know, making sure you have your capability statement that you’re prepared. How do you merge your capability statement with storytelling in order to to get someone’s attention?

Mellissa Tong: [00:19:48] Well, if you look at my police statement, actually, it’s it took a little bit of work, you know, because before our main focus was, you know, video production, you know, doing TV commercials and branded content. But now we added a brand new division, which is storytelling consulting. So I have, you know, I listed like five capabilities on there. And one is, you know, the storytelling part, but not everybody understands what storytelling is. So sometimes, you know, I actually need to explain to people, you know, what, what is business storytelling? Some people actually have told me, Oh, yeah, I’ve been doing this storytelling. And I say, Well, how so? And they say, Oh, I’ve been posting on social media. So a lot of people think, Oh, just by posting on social media is storytelling. So which is not true. And I do have to say, though, you know, for all the listeners, listeners out there, you know, if you have not done this program, make sure you do it. I’ve done it. And then I then I thought my capability statement is ready to go. But after PSP, I mean, I can finally say that I’m proud of my capability statement right now. So check it out. You know, do it. You won’t regret it.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:20:58] What? Psp? Melissa with PSP? Oh yeah.

Mellissa Tong: [00:21:01] Psp is a platinum PSP platinum playa program. That is for all weebs to polish and uplevel your capability statement and how to pitch so you can be more ready when you go to conferences and meet with corporations.

Speaker7: [00:21:21] It’s not set.

Pamela Williamson: [00:21:23] And.

Speaker7: [00:21:25] Just out of curiosity, what steps can.

Pamela Williamson: [00:21:28] Women entrepreneurs take in to increase their chances of successfully obtaining a government contract? Beverly, why don’t you start with that one?

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:21:38] I’ll go back to what I said before, really understanding what is. And I love the idea of storytelling. I’m going to talk to you. I love that idea because I think people remember better when you’ve told a story that they can relate to. Maybe I learned that from you a few years back. I’m not sure, but I appreciate that. But I think really understanding who buys what you have, I mean, even if you’re selling B to C, you’re looking at the demographics of your customer, right? I always tell people when we go to DSW, designer, shoe warehouse designer, shoe Warehouse already knows that we’re either going to pay with a credit card, a debit card, cash, something. They know exactly how we’re going to buy that product. And they’ve made sure that they’ve made all those avenues available to us. So if we’re working, we’d like to work in the public sector. We don’t understand how that agency, how that how do they buy? Is it the money issue? Is it a is the money allocated quarterly? How do they spend it? Are there any existing contracts that are going to be expiring soon? There’s some homework that needs to be done ahead of time. Is there a contract that you’re interested in that’s going to be expiring in the next 6 to 12 months? I think there’s so much that we can do to make sure that we are ready, but it starts with taking baby steps.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:22:57] And I’d like to say at this juncture, too, that learning how to take those baby steps, there’s information out there that is free. The SBA can help you learn how to take those baby steps, The what used to be, which is now called Apex. They can teach you how to take those baby steps. The small Business Development Center can teach you how to take those baby steps. There are several a multitude of free resources out there that you can tap into to at least to get you started. And that will help at least get you to another level so that maybe you’re ready to do something else. Federal contracting, I always say, is not for the faint of heart. It is not a get rich quick scheme. I’ve seen lots of things on the Internet that says, Oh, we can help you get a government contract. It takes 30 days. Um, you may get one, you may get a small one, but there won’t be. It’s not a consistent, a consistent, persistent way to be in business where you are really perpetuating contract after contract, contact after contact with making sure that you are getting well entrenched in the federal arena. And I’m sorry to speak so much about federal. That’s my area of expertise. That’s why I’m glad that there are other people on the line that talk about other governmental agencies like local and city and state.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:24:07] Yeah, I was gonna. There’s so many things that you just brought up that I want to touch on the office procurement, technical assistance. Basically, the local small business entities often have procurement, technical assistance entities. And so if you sign up with them, you can actually get a roundup, a list of potential RFPs that you’re eligible for, right? That that eligible meaning that are within your NAiCs codes or that are in your realm of expertise. And so I get one from LA County, get one from a few different tech offices. They’re all over the nation. And so you get this list of like 20 different RFPs every day that you might be interested in. I scroll through them like, Nope, nope, nope. Oh, that’s interesting. Oh, okay. Interesting. Iowa City wants a strategy that will include whatever it is, right? I might look at that. Then you look at it, you think maybe this is interesting for me. And so I think the tech office, that’s a great example of a place you can go and like look at multiple things. I would say for me, I think to the the start small piece, it sounds so you can’t say, oh, federal contracting start small or government contracting start small. They seem opposite of each other. But there’s a lot of proposals like requests for proposals out there that are actually for like a 30 K project or a 20 K project or a ten K project. And so I think also knowing that you don’t have to be the subcontractor, um, the very first project we got was a $600,000 project and we went in as the prime.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:25:32] Um, and that’s after for two years going to these meetups as the subcontractor. And I kept thinking, this is silly, I can do a better job than them or I even meet up with people and I partner and we come up with a proposal and I wouldn’t like the way they wrote it. I wouldn’t think it was detailed enough. And I just kept thinking like, this is these people actually can’t do as good a job as I can. And so I looked for a proposal that we could do and do entirely in house because we had enough capacity for it, because I didn’t want to be a sub. And granted, that has its own challenges, but I think that so often the push is for us to be subs and like we have our own power, we can we can be the prime, right? You don’t have to take on a $3 Million first contract. It could be a $50,000 contract and you can win that and you can look through what they are. If you’re if you start getting on a lot of different listservs for what the RFPs are coming out or start you have to, of course, register then with LA City, with LA County, with the city of Iowa City, with all these different entities or work through the tech office.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:26:30] That’s a very interesting point. And I agree with you. And I want to just add on to that, that the in federal contracting, the government has a 23% goal to do business with small businesses across all the socioeconomic sectors. They only get credit for that when small businesses are the prime. So they’re looking that that leads exactly into what Jessica is saying. There are smaller contracts that you can take a look at or RFPs that you can take a look at that the government is also looking for small businesses as well. And another website for searching for the federal side is the system for acquisition management. Dot gov sam.gov those you can actually go in and register for for alerts under your industry sector or industry NAiCs code. And then those particular RFPs or solicitations or RFI or source of sought will actually be delivered into your mailbox and you can review them. I always say put up your feet, sit back because you really do need to read them page by page. Some of them are longer than others. Some of them are very short. There’s also another system, and I apologize because I can’t remember what the acronym stands for, but with DOD, it’s called the Dibs System. And in that system, you can there are very, very small requirements that that the government, particularly DOD bids for every day. So go to dibs dib be like Beverly, Beverly, dibs gov and you can actually register for those as well. And they’re very small. Thanks for making me think of that, Jessica.

Mellissa Tong: [00:28:10] Um, yeah. So for me, I would say that I actually tried, you know, government contracting a while back, and at the time I didn’t know there was so much help out there. I was going at it alone. Um, I bid on so many contracts and people looked at my proposal. Oh, yeah, they look great, but I never want a single contract. So I got frustrated and then I stopped. And then I realized that, wow, there’s a lot more to it. So now I’m coming back again, you know, trying to, you know, bid some contracts as a prime. And, you know, really you have to spend time and do your homework, you know, and build a relationship. And another thing is, you know, a lot of people automatically think, oh, when I have when I get a certain status, you know, then automatically I’m going to get a contract, right? That is so not true. Having having a woman on or having minority owned, you know, um, status helps at the end if you do get the contract, but it’s not going to automatically. We hope you get the contract, but I still do think that you should get certified every way possible because that’s going to add to your advantage in the end. You know, like, you know, Beverly and Jessica said, a lot of agencies, they have priority given to women and minority owned and ADA and I mean all these different, um, you know, different preferences, you know, to local businesses. So get all the certifications you can because when you get the contract, those will count. But don’t think automatically just because you certified somehow a contract is going to drop from heaven, you know, and, you know, get you get you get you, you know, hired. That’s not the case.

Lee Kantor: [00:29:47] Now. When you don’t win a bid, is there any place for feedback to learn why you didn’t win and what you can do to improve for next time?

Jessica Daugherty: [00:29:57] Public Records request. Even when I do win, I always do a public records request to see the other proposers proposals, and I learned from what they what they said and why they want or why I want, etcetera. You can reach out to the contracting officer also and ask for feedback or even the entity, the agency. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they don’t have time. But the public records request has been the best thing I’ve I’ve done because then you literally get everyone’s proposals and can look at them and say, okay, well, they’re better than me, or I see why I won. I see what they did and you see what the the playing field looks like.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:30:34] And same on the federal side. You have an opportunity under the far the Federal Acquisition Regulation to request a debrief. And also if it’s more informal than that, you could if you bid, you can ask for a copy of the abstract, which will be a matrix of all the companies that bid and sometimes with their bid price is unless they have some special language written into to their proposal that says they would they wish in this very specific language where you can actually word for word explain to the government that you do not want your pricing to be distributed for public consumption.

Lee Kantor: [00:31:13] Are there any are there any software or any resources that help a person put a proposal together?

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:31:21] I’m sure that there are and would like to just caution people. I’m looking at a note from Jessica, and I think she’s right. There are lots of scams out there now. There are lots of people that ask for money first who do not know what they’re doing, who are making you promises. And that’s why we’ve talked about the free services that are available that the government makes available to you. And I always encourage people to go there first. Jessica talked about is now called Apex. Apex. But the same services apply. There are people there that are paid by the government to help you understand how to do business with the government, how to ask for an abstract, how to get a FOIA request, a question that you would ask somebody who is saying that they are a federal expert, which I think is a is an oxymoron, right? Because federal contracting changes all the time. You got to do is look at the federal register. It changes or look at some of the executive orders. It changes almost on a daily basis. And you really have to understand how the parts and pieces fit together to know how you can use all this new information to your advantage. And I really don’t believe there’s anybody you can really pay to do that for you unless you’re already at a certain level. I work with companies that are about $30 million and above because I do believe there are lots of free services out there for smaller companies. And you can always just call people, talk to them and ask for them, but be careful and protect yourself financially because people who are promising you these great things where you think you don’t have to do anything but just sign on the dotted line when they bring a contract to you. I just don’t think that kind of scenario exists. Jessica.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:33:02] Yeah, yeah. The so when you register on Sam, the system for award management of the federal government, right, which you have to do if you want to get federal contracts. When you register, you can click a button to make your contact information public or not What you want it to be public so that people can reach out to you. But that also makes a list public for anyone and everyone and their mothers, brothers, cousins, aunts, cat who is trying to basically tell you, Oh, I can help you get a federal contract here, let me help you. I’ll give you a list of things you need or I’ll help you register here. I’ll help you do that. I literally get like two calls a week, like six different emails a week. And sometimes there are even people trying to sell you different things and it’s super. Sometimes they’re helpful, sometimes they’re very random and not connected to what you need, but it’s because you are registered and so just be aware of those. I think most of them are very, very big scams. Often people even just say like, This is the government underneath. And a little asterisk. This is not the government. Please don’t say this is the government. So there’s just a lot of scams out there in this world and there’s enough places to go it alone. If you don’t have the time, though, and you only are looking to have hire someone to figure it out for you, Don’t do it because you don’t have the time. It takes time.

Mellissa Tong: [00:34:16] Well, I’ll say one more thing. Not just some of those things are actually scams, but I actually have received scam emails from people pretending to be a contracting officer out of a government agency, and they made it look so real. Um, I actually called, you know, the actual agency trying to ask for that particular person to try to verify if they were for real or not. So people are just trying to scam you every way possible. So just be really, you know, um, you know, just do your homework. And if you’re unsure, just ask somebody, you know, talk to somebody and just get some help so you don’t get, you know, pulled into, you know, some dicey situations.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:34:59] Yeah. Yeah, true. And again, every everything that you want to know about the federal there’s free information if you go to sba.gov they have federal contracting one on one courses and PowerPoint that you can actually download and review at your own leisure. I’m sure that P-Tech or Apex has the same thing. There’s just and you just have to make up your mind that if you decide that you want to go into public contracting, it is and you’re and you’re more accustomed to doing work on the private sector, it’s going to take some time. There is no easy way to do this. I think I heard each of us talk about the amount of time that we’ve been in the public sector and working toward the public sector. I didn’t know anything when I first started. It was trial and error. And then I learned that I spent a lot of time in Washington. A lot of you know that I work with a particular congressman, a congressional representative, and that really helped me as well understand more about how to really represent companies to the federal government. But I, I don’t just work with anyone. I am very careful about taking somebody’s money. I’ve even returned money to people who did not understand what it was that I was offering. So we’ve made some mistakes as well. And so I am very, very and very careful. And anybody that you work with who says, Oh, yeah, yeah, just send me a check and I’ll do this, it just doesn’t work that way. And pretty soon reputations will be destroyed as a result of that. And they’re looking for just a one hit wonder.

Lee Kantor: [00:36:30] Now saying all that. Do you still think that most business people should at least take some of those baby steps and explore some of the free resources and some of the agencies that are available to help just to see if it is the right fit for their firm?

Jessica Daugherty: [00:36:48] Absolutely. I’m going to use the example of like when when I went to my very first Quebec West Conference or Webbank, you know, national conference, you’re instantly like going on every single, every single company’s website and like registering on their procurement platform. It’s the exact same thing for a lot of different government entities, right? You have to register. So if there are government entities or agencies that are interested in working with registers, you can actually see what they’re, what they’re buying, right? Register that way. But it’s very different than often the way that webs are taught, right? You’re selling yourself, you have to market and in this case, you’re actually responding to someone else’s already very clearly delineated need until, of course, you have a relationship with them, right? Instead of you marketing. Oh, I can do X, y, z pick from the menu. You’re saying, Oh, you need X, y, Z. I can do something on your menu. So without being able to see their menu, you can’t figure out if you’re a fit. And so I would say register with not all of them. Don’t do what I did. And register on like 50 different people that were, you know, at the various matchmaker events, pick which ones you’re interested in and then look at their sites once a month or tell one of your employees, hey, look at this for two hours every Monday. And like, look, if there’s any RFPs that are interesting to us and to start looking and don’t apply to everything unless it’s a perfect fit, when something’s interesting and a good fit, you have a much better chance of winning it.

Mellissa Tong: [00:38:12] Yeah, I agree 100%. And also, you know, if you’re not quite ready to be prime, you can always start with, you know, as a sub and also you can team up with other people, you know, like right now, me and two other companies are going after, you know, going together, going after the same contract. And then on on on the proposal, we actually say, hey, you know, we’re going to team up, you know, with these two other companies to fulfill this entire contract because sometimes, you know, a contract, unless you’re going after smaller contracts, usually pick up contracts, have multi disciplines, you know, and if you may not be able to do all of them or you may not be able to do all of them as well, you know, as your competitors. So just team up and then you can go after the same contract and you know, each of you will get a piece and then you can start slowly building up your own credibility, you know, your own appetite for going after bigger contracts and go from there.

Lee Kantor: [00:39:02] So if you’re going to take the if you’re going to take the subcontractor route, how do you identify appropriate primes?

Jessica Daugherty: [00:39:11] And so something I’ll start with what not to do. And then, Melissa, you’ve had success with Say what to Do, but. I get hit up all the time because we’ve done so many projects as a prime, right? I get hit up all the time by random people who do not have a clear capability statement saying, Let me be a subcontractor for you. And I’m like, For what? Lady or for what? Man or veteran owned business. Like, I’m not just going to hire you because you’re a woman. Like, what is this? I’m not going to hire you because and literally people just throw their names at you or they come up to you at events and give you your business card. If you need a sub, hire me. And I’m like, for what? Like you haven’t proven your value. That’s what not to do, right? The same way I go to a conferences and I speak about and I show not tell, do the same thing. If you want to go to an event and meet potential primes, bring a research. For me, it’d be a research paper. Show me you’re a nerd like me. Show me you’re an expert nerd who can deliver consulting materials. I’ll love you. Right. You can’t prove it to me. I’m not going to have the time to just randomly look at your website or business card. That’s what not to do. So what do you do, Melissa?

Mellissa Tong: [00:40:15] Well, you know, like you said, right? You register on all these sites, you know, everything is public record. And also when you when you find when you find certain contracts that you’re interested, you know, when you download actually a lot of agencies pulled out all the people who download, you know, their RFP. So you can see who’s interested in bidding as a prime and you can start that way. You can look at, you know, maybe the 2050 people who have expressed interest in bidding on that contract. And if you cannot be the prime, you look through them and then you pick out, oh, okay, who do I really want to partner with pick out like from 50, right. Pick out three. And like I said, it’s public. You know, it’s public information. So you call them up and say, I saw that you’ve downloaded this RFP and you’ve expressed interest in going after this RFP. So I would like to introduce ourselves as a subcontractor. We do X, Y, Z. So, you know, would that be something that you guys would be interested in to start, you know, talking and start building relationship with these prime contractors? That’s a good way to start.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:41:18] I would also add. So in the federal sector, again, a 38 CFR 9.6 38 code of Federal regulations, 9.6 talks about teaming and prime sub teaming, different kinds of teaming. There’s something called similarly situated entities teaming. There’s the limitations on contracting that you have to be aware of. But I think understanding what teaming is, I know that in in the aerospace sector, right so Northrop Grumman and Bae Systems and they have a number of different a multitude of subcontractors, But as what’s been previously stated, just walking up and giving them your card doesn’t really get it. You have to really understand what is the requirement, what are they going after? What does it look like a piece can I really do on this contract? It really takes a little bit of homework that SBA and Apex and Sbdc can all walk you through. And also the minority business Development agency under the Department of Commerce, they also have people that are there to help you understand and help you work with, develop relationships and work with companies of various sizes in order to be a teaming partner. But remember, on the federal side, the government only counts their small business based on the prime contracts that are allotted to the small business.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:42:43] And there are a number of different ways. There’s something called the SBA, all Small Mentor Protege program, which is available if you are looking for a teaming partner. And that’s and typically people already and there’s a list on the website of all of people that are looking for subcontractors. Right? But again, it sounds really good and easy. But unless, you know, just like Jessica said, everybody feels that way. Every prime feels that way. How can I really help you? How can I really add value on this contract? What is it that I can do? And you’re going to have to find a way to get Jessica’s attention or Melissa’s attention. It doesn’t just happen automatically, but I think that we bequest and we bank offer great opportunities for people to network and kind of get to know each other so that once you do that, now, you can talk about how you might partner when you understand what each other has to offer.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:43:39] And to build on what Beverly said, to just be careful who you’re throwing your chips in with, too. Right. I mean, if you are trying to partner with someone, be a sub. Pick the one that’s likely to win, right? I mean, if you’re going to go do your homework and see if they’ve won something before, because if you’re going to spend all this time. Spend your time figuring that out. Just super important. And again, consummate communication and constant networking that is that’s been our lifeblood. I mean, that is how we market that and going to conferences and presenting and doing trainings. That’s how we market. But even just being on this call, I’m like, Oh, Melissa, maybe we can partner on something in the future, right? I mean, there’s always opportunities out there, which is phenomenal. Yeah, Yeah.

Mellissa Tong: [00:44:25] And I’ll say another thing, just piggyback what Jessica said. So besides just checking to see if these people have won anything, also check them out on, you know, the Better Business Bureau. Make sure that they pay the subcontractors. I’ve heard horror stories where they’re you know, they get paid and they don’t pay their subcontractors on time. And you don’t want that.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:44:47] And I just want to say something about understanding what’s available, right? So I also am a I’m a geek. And so I, I from podcasts to the Wall Street Journal to to the Daily, all those things every day there’s information out there that gives us a clue as to how the government is going to be spending its money or where it’s going to be spending its money. Right? So right now, we know there’s a lot of controversy about the Ukraine. You we all know that the government must be allocating resources in order to provide resources to the folks in Ukraine. So I took a look at what they were doing in terms of foreign military sales. I did that research and now I have an appointment next week after next with that particular agency for foreign military sales to talk about how we might be able to help them service some of the needs out of that contract. Right now. We know that during Covid that all of the government agencies had a shortage, right? The supply chain was severely disrupted. So they had lots of the stockpile of personal protective equipment was just obliterated. And then because China was cut off and we were no longer doing business with China, there was a shortage of supplies. So what’s happening now? Many federal agencies are trying to develop their own stockpile. So now that’s product and services that can be supplied by local companies. Understanding what’s going on in the world also gives you a hint about where you might be able to to play and or participate. The Navy had issues with its ships recently where a few of the ships had been had gone out and they had some issues.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:46:28] So they had to come back in. Every Navy ship that goes out has to go out with medical supplies on it. So I do a lot of medical supplies in addition to some other things. And so that gives me a reason to go out and talk to the Navy to find out how they’re resolving those issues. When you know that an agency has a problem that they’re trying to solve, it helps you to at least think about how you might be able to participate in that. There there are opportunities all around us in our day to day business and it’s very exciting. And we also have to be careful and we have to really know our stuff. But the government spends so many billions of dollars either in the way of grants or in government contracts. And then there’s resources available for small businesses who don’t have the funding available in order to go after these contracts. There’s more and more funding available every day. So again, sba.gov is a great place to start. Go to your local regional SBA, make an appointment with a business opportunity specialist or some other representative. Have your questions ready. Go sit down and start the conversation and see how they might be able to help you. I just think information is king right now, and not knowing is no excuse anymore because we’ve got Google and all these other places that we can go in order to research companies, in order to research with some of the needs are so I say be aware, have your eyes open, know what you sell and know that the government buys everything.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:47:52] Yeah. Can I give another example? Because I think example is Beverly speaks so loudly too, of how you need to do your research to identify existing need and also what’s coming down the pipeline. Um, about a year and a half ago, President Biden released a Justice40 initiative. It was an executive order basically to make sure that transportation included more sustainable transportation, included disadvantaged communities and planning. And it was a it was a climate initiative, right. That has rippling effects in the transportation industry. We’ve done a number of equity projects with transportation agencies. So I started talking to some of my previous clients, said, How do you think this is going to affect you? And they’re like, We don’t know. We don’t know what Justice Ford is going to do to us. Maybe we’re going to have to do different community engagement. Maybe we’re going to have to do research. Maybe we’re going to have to. I don’t know. What do you think? Could you write us a memo on that? Okay. That sounds like a good idea. So I just took it upon myself to write a memo about how I thought this would impact the industry that I worked on for free. No one paid me to do it, but I wrote him a three page brief of what I think they should do to get ahead of it. You better believe that led to work. It led to work and budgets they already had. They didn’t even go to formal proposals because I anticipated a need of theirs. And now more and more transit agencies are are real ramifications that are happening. But I’m on note of anticipating the need and people are referring other people to me because I anticipated the need. Right. It could be as simple as knowing that libraries are right now. Libraries are going to have to change. Libraries are going to have to change because people are reading books in different ways. Maybe they’re turning into service centers, you name it. Anticipate the need, right? Something interesting and start reaching out to people.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:49:26] You know, that brings up another point. So the executive orders, I think you’re talking about one 447. And there’s another one, Executive order 013985. The Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. And maybe you are my daughter in another life. But I will tell you that when I looked at that initiative, I developed a white paper because, you know, government contracting and executive orders is confusing to people who are not living it and breathing it every day like you and Melissa and I. Right. It’s very, very confusing. And that’s why Dr. Williamson has this kind of a panel going on. And so when I wrote the the executive order, I did a white paper. I tore it apart. I took it to specific organizations and said, your constituency should be made aware of this. There was a hundred $100 billion with a B that the Biden-Harris administration committed to allocating in government contracts to small, disadvantaged businesses between now and the end of 2025. That’s a lot of money. So the question becomes, okay, wait a minute, but how are you going to do this? So it allowed me to develop questions at conferences.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:50:32] It allowed me to represent a certain constituency of certain organizations and it allowed me to really have a great role to play specifically with the minority business Development agency under the Department of Commerce. Because then when they saw this and they heard me speaking about it, I do a lot of public speaking to the point that both of you have made, and Melissa knows that. But when people saw me, they saw me as an expert. I always say there’s no such thing as an expert. I just have information and this is what I do with my time at 2:00 in the morning. Sorry, but I’m going to start leaking out to people that like Jessica and Melissa, because that is really the way that you get this done. You have to really tear it apart piece by piece. But there is gold that is there. But start small. Go to the SBA, go to Sbdc, go to the meetings, go to Quebec West, tear it apart, ask questions. And I believe that there’s something there for all of us in one way or another.

Lee Kantor: [00:51:30] Well, thank you all for participating. Before we wrap, I’d like to go around and get Contact Information website from each of you and maybe share your ideal client in a sentence or two. And we’ll start with you, Beverly.

Beverly Kuykendall: [00:51:47] Um, for me, I will tell you that at the moment I am clientid up. We are busy. Cynthia can tell you that. But always wanting to have a conversation if we could, if we could figure out a time for, you know, 10 minutes or 15 minutes. And I always ask people, tell people don’t just call and say, you want to pick my brain, Have some specific questions available and I will. I will. We will direct you to the right resources. I can be reached at Beverly at Carr Kuykendall Associates, LLC, dot com, Beverly at Llc.com. And then I will connect you with Cynthia Haynes, our assistant. I also want to say that I work with two contracting officers. One has retired. They both have retired from the federal government, and I work with them because they help me to deliver services to clients, particularly as it relates to responding to RFPs. And together we use all of our contacts to make sure we put that are the best foot forward for particular client. So I’m not here looking for business, but I do want to help so you can reach me in that way and I’ll be happy to give you 10 or 15 minutes. And then Dr. Williamson are talking about working on some things as well.

Lee Kantor: [00:52:58] Melissa.

Mellissa Tong: [00:53:00] Um, so I’m pretty easy to find. Um, I my name is spelled with two L’s and two S’s. Melissa Tong. Tong. My company is called Daft Punk Productions. So if you go to Duck Punk, the UK punk dot net. I don’t want you to have to remember my email, but there’s a contact us form over there, so feel free to fill it out and ask your questions and we’ll be able to get back to you. In terms of clients, I mean, you know, government contracting and, you know, corporations, corporations contracting, that’s on one side. But on the other side, we also work a lot with webs to really help them apply storytelling in the business to build their brand, drive sales and win more customers. So if any Web is interested in learning more about storytelling, you know, feel free to contact us.

Lee Kantor: [00:53:48] And Jessica.

Jessica Daugherty: [00:53:50] Yeah. Again, Jessica Doherty. Our website is cause impacts plural so impacts.com. And again there’s a contact us form there or I’m at Jessica at cause impacts.com. As far as ideal client we work across all sectors on purpose to keep us fresh. Um, we do a lot of corporate social responsibility but in workforce development. So I love helping private sector companies develop workforce strategies that will give back to their employees by upskilling them, by training them, by creating career pipelines or bringing in more young, diverse talent. And so creating apprenticeship programs or internship programs or ways to upskill people into businesses. There’s a lot of fun for me. So, yeah, but in general, a lot of strategic planning too. So just love making sure that all of our projects are social justice focused and causing impacts in the world.

Lee Kantor: [00:54:43] Good stuff. Well, thank you all for participating. You’re all doing important work and we appreciate you. Pamela, any last words?

Pamela Williamson: [00:54:51] Now I just want to thank everyone. This was such a informational filled session that it is hard for me even to summarize all of the good things that you guys shared. But there is one thing that stands out, and I think we say this a lot, is be clear about what you do and what you can offer and that will lead you towards your path of who you should want to do business with. And I think everyone should always remember that all business is not good business and it is okay to say no to things. So with that, Lee, I’m going to pass it on to you to close us out.

Lee Kantor: [00:55:28] All right. This is Lee Kantor for Dr. Pamela Williamson. We will see you all next time on Women in Motion.