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The Importance of Elegant Follow Up
BRX Pro Tip: Pros and Cons of Pay for Performance
BRX Pro Tip: Pros and Cons of Pay for Performance
Stone Payton: Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips. Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you this afternoon. Lee, let’s talk a little bit about — let’s examine both the pros and the cons of pay-for-performance arrangements.
Lee Kantor: Yeah. Over the years, we’ve been offered or people have tried to negotiate in some sort of pay-per-performance fee or either in exchange for or an addition to the service that we provide. And I think that there’s pros and cons of working a pay-for-performance deal. Obviously, one of the pros is that it has a much bigger upside than just the rate by itself. And if you’re truly delivering measurable value, then you should benefit financially accordingly. So, if the person selling a high-ticket item, and you are accepting some sort of pay-for-performance, you should be making a lot more money if that thing goes through than you would if they were just paying for the service by itself, and then they were keeping all the money.
Lee Kantor: Now, obviously, the cost of doing that is that there’s a lot of variables that are outside of your control. So, you might be delivering your end of the bargain perfectly, but if they can’t deliver their end of the bargain, you’re doing a lot of work, and you’re not benefiting at all. So, that’s a big con in my book. There might be a way to do this that’s kind of a hybrid where you’re guaranteed a base fee for your best advice and the service you’re providing, and then you get a bonus when your client closes the deal down the road. If you’re doing that, make sure your base fee obviously covers whatever your costs are, and you make some money from it, so you’re not really losing in any sense. You might be getting less fees, but you’re not losing. So, I think that there’s pros and cons for doing it. And it’s a case-by-case basis. If there’s a big upside, and you believe in the partner, then it might be worth giving it a shot.
BRX Pro Tip: Adjust Your Strategies to Your Audience
BRX Pro Tip: Adjust Your Strategies to Your Audience
Stone Payton: [00:00:00] And we are back with Business RadioX Pro Tips. Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, we’re always, as entrepreneurs, business owners, senior execs, and ongoing concerns, we’re twisting the dials. We’re trying to dial things in and make adjustments. But it’s key, I think, that we adjust our strategies, and particularly our marketing and networking strategies to our audience.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:29] Right. I think it’s important to communicate in the language of which you are dealing. So, if you’re dealing with accountants, for example, you might tell same story, same anecdote, same case studies, but use different words and use different language with the accountants than you would if you were selling that same thing to advertising creatives.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:51] Your philosophy isn’t really going to change, but the language you use, and the words you use, and the way that you communicate will change. And I think it’s a mistake to think that you can speak the same way and use the same words and examples with different types of people. You have to adjust to the type of person you’re dealing with.
Lee Kantor: [00:01:11] So, if they’re super analytical and number oriented, you should be adjusting your case study or testimonial or social proof accordingly. If they’re more creative or more vision or future focused, you should adjust your story to use that kind of language and to use those kind of words and imagery to help them really connect with the story you’re trying to tell.
Lee Kantor: [00:01:33] So, the example might be the same, but the words and the language might be totally different. So, keep that in mind. The next time you have a sales pitch or you’re talking to a prospect, listen to the words they’re using, listen to the the way that they prioritize what’s important to them, and then adjust your story to fit into their patterns.
Building Bridges: How Radford Doors and Gates Connects with the San Diego Community
In this episode of Women in Motion, Lee Kantor speaks with Emily Souliotes, co-owner of Radford Doors and Gates. Emily shares her journey into the garage door and gate industry, highlighting her background in design and business management. She discusses taking over the family business in 2019 with her husband, emphasizing the importance of continuity, customer service, and community involvement. The conversation covers technological advancements in garage doors, the types of clients they serve, and the significance of being part of the WBEC-West community. Emily underscores the value of collaboration and relationship-building among women entrepreneurs.
Emily Souliotes is the Principal of Radford Doors & Gates, a family-owned and operated business she runs alongside her husband, Aleko.
Specializing in high-quality residential and commercial door and gate solutions, Radford reflects Emily’s commitment to fostering a culture of integrity and excellence.
With over five years of experience in a traditionally male-dominated industry, she is passionate about building strong customer relationships and upholding meaningful values.
A mother of two young children, Emily balances the demands of business ownership and family life, drawing inspiration from both roles. As a WBENC-certified business owner and active member of NARI, she is dedicated to supporting women in business and advocating for female leadership in construction.
Emily also contributes to her community through involvement with the Boys & Girls Clubs of Northwest San Diego County.
Connect with Emily on LinkedIn.
Music Provided by M PATH MUSIC
This transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix
TRANSCRIPT
Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios, it’s time for Women In Motion. Brought to you by WBEC-West. Join forces. Succeed together. Now, here’s your host.
Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here. Another episode of Women In Motion. And this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, WBEC-West. Without them, we couldn’t be sharing these important stories.
Lee Kantor: Today on Women In Motion, we have Emily Souliotes with Radford Doors & Gates. Welcome.
Emily Souliotes: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us a little bit about Radford Doors & Gates.
Emily Souliotes: Yes. So we are a residential and commercial garage door and gate specialty subcontractor. So basically, we’re a construction company. We’re located here in San Diego. We have, which is kind of cool, one of the only garage door showrooms for our residential clients where we have, you know, full-sized doors up and people can come on in and take a look and design the door that they love.
Lee Kantor: So, what’s your backstory? How’d you get involved in this line of work?
Emily Souliotes: Yeah, you know, I get that a lot. It is a little bit different. So, you know, I have a background in design, which then led me into helping family with their own businesses, which in turn led me to managing businesses.
Emily Souliotes: So before I met my husband, I was managing at a practice, an optometric practice. And so people essentially was the business I was in and keeping that business running. And then when I met my husband, he was into – before we were married, he was doing some house renovations, house flipping, and construction was in his background, and he was looking to transition businesses. And he found this one for sale. So the two of us jumped in 2019 right before the pandemic and learned a lot about doors and gates pretty quickly, I’d say. When you jumped in, it was learning everything start to finish. And so now it’s been about five years; we’ve been running the company together.
Lee Kantor: So, is there any kind of similarities from the previous business? I mean, each of those, I mean, there’s customers, there’s some kind of basic foundational things of all businesses. But was there anything transferable for you?
Emily Souliotes: Absolutely. So, you know, when we jumped in, we took roles that we felt, you know, spoke to our strong suits. So, you know, he came from the entrepreneurial business strategy, sales side of things. And so, you know, he’s always been you know, the sales manager, acting sales manager and running that side of the business.
Emily Souliotes: And then I jumped in knowing what I did best, which was operations and people management, whether it was helping our dispatch team with customer management as well as the internal side, and making sure, you know, H.R. employees all that side, making sure that they, you know, they can do their job at their best. So we took specific lanes and roles, knowing that that was what we were good at. And it’s worked out really well for us.
Lee Kantor: Now, do you have any advice when it comes to buying a business that already exists, or are there any kind of do’s and don’ts that you picked up from doing this and successfully running it for five years?
Emily Souliotes: I would say, you know, my husband had a lot of financial criteria that he used, and he was more heavily involved in that. But what we were looking for was a business that had continuity. You know, we’ve – like I said, we’ve owned this for five years, but the company is actually going to be 80 years old next year. So we are the fourth owners. And we felt that, you know, if the business had sustained the economic cycles and had been around for those years, we felt like we could pick up where they left off. So I would say the continuity was the biggest thing for us.
Emily Souliotes: And then along with an industry where we just felt like, you know, we had a little bit of background in construction, and as long as you can jump in and put the right people in place for more of the technical aspect, we felt like if we had the people then we could make it work. So we actually have one employee that’s been with the company since he was 18 and his father was an employee as well. So that’s something that’s pretty special to us.
Lee Kantor: Now, were you searching out businesses or did this just kind of get on your radar? And it was an opportunity you couldn’t pass up?
Emily Souliotes: No, he was actively looking. You know, he was looking at different businesses in the home services space. So it wasn’t just garage doors specifically, but we did expand it. I will say that when we purchased residential garage doors was the only lane and we have since added gates and the commercial side of the business as well. So that’s been a creation that we’ve put on. It wasn’t there before.
Lee Kantor: Now, what about – for you, was this something that you were, like, fired up about, or were you like, all right, I guess we’re in the door business? I mean, like, because a lot of people believe, you know, follow your passion and everything is going to come from there. Was this something like that or was this business is business and it doesn’t matter what I’m selling, I’m going to be, you know, I’ll give it my all and, you know, do good customer service and all that good stuff?
Emily Souliotes: I think for us, the most important – one of our, you know, family values is just that. It’s being available for family. And yes, you know, follow your dreams is something that, you know, a lot of people hear about. But at the same time, we have to be realistic in what works for our lifestyle and our family. And for us, we wanted a business that gave us some flexibility. But at the same time, that was something that we could – that we knew we were good at already or, like, that we could tackle. And this fell into that. So I think, you know, since we’ve owned the business, we have two small children, you know, we’re growing the business, but we’re making sure that we have a good balance of our lifestyle with family and travel and the business as well.
Emily Souliotes: So I think for us, we are doing what we love because we can, you know, we have the flexibility as business owners and entrepreneurs and, yeah, we are still really passionate about the business itself and making sure the company is run from core values and spreading that not just, you know, here to make money and turn a profit and be, you know, be a local business like that, so, sort of answering that, yeah.
Lee Kantor: Now, who are your clients? Are they consumers directly or do you sell to middlemen who then sell to consumers?
Emily Souliotes: No, we’re direct to consumer. So we, and we’re not a manufacturer. The cool part about us is that we can source garage doors and products from a multitude of vendors. So, we like to sort of say that we are not brand agnostic. You know, we have a lot of different brands that we supply to our different customers. Some of them are businesses, but some of them are, you know, on the residential side, specifically. All those – people can come in and find us and we can sell to them and they can pick their brand of their choice. And like I said, you know, find a garage door that really fits their budget, their dream, their vision, and their design. And we can make that happen.
Lee Kantor: Now, are they coming to you because something happened to their door and then they have to replace it? Or do sometimes people just say, “Hey, we want to refresh, and let’s see what’s out there”?
Emily Souliotes: I would say the majority of the time people are just upgrading. It’s doing what we would call a retrofit, right? They lived somewhere long enough where the doors may be no longer in style, or they’re building a house or they’re doing a retrofit of their current home.
Emily Souliotes: But I will say, before I got into the business, I didn’t even really know. But there are more garage door accidents with cars than you can imagine. Some people, you know, just gas or break, they end up tapping that garage door a little too hard and they end up having to replace it. So, I’ve seen a couple of different things, some funny or not-so-funny stories, but unfortunately, that does happen. And we’re there for those replacements as well.
Lee Kantor: Now, when you decided to get into gates, how did that come about?
Emily Souliotes: You know, people came in asking for it. So usually when you’re designing a house or looking at the front of your house, the garage doors line up with any other access point, right? So, you’re going to have a walkway gate potentially. Or maybe there’s a driveway gate that leads to your garage door. And people were asking a lot about products that complemented themselves. So we just thought, well, if we’re already providing one access point that’s designed, why not add to the repertoire?
Emily Souliotes: So, some of the other manufacturers had already offered, you know, complementing or matching products. And so we thought it would be a good – it would be a good opportunity to offer more services to people that were already coming to us and finding us and asking for it.
Lee Kantor: Now, does the gate is that like fencing as well, or like, what is it?
Emily Souliotes: No. Yeah. A lot of people think, oh, so, you know, I can get a fence for my house. It’s not. It’s not. They’re actually pretty different. Perimeter fencing is kind of a different skill set where we focus specifically on the gate itself. So mounting like a pedestrian gate or a walkway gate and then a driveway gate where it’s the automation of it as well.
Emily Souliotes: So, home automation, as you can imagine, has become very big lately, especially with the advent of all the home automation services like Google and all the devices that are being created. You can implement a lot of that with access points to the exterior of your house as well. So garage doors and gates all have systems that can usually be integrated, and people are really excited to jump on that and heighten their security for their home in that way, too. So, you know, we felt like it was just sort of a match made in heaven, getting all that connected and offering all the possible services to our customers in that way.
Lee Kantor: Now, is that something the technology to open doors and gates remotely or to give, you know, maybe somebody who’s visiting access remotely, is that now kind of must-haves? Where they used to be nice-to-haves? Is that like – does everybody want that nowadays?
Emily Souliotes: Yeah, most people do. Almost every single garage door opener now comes with it whether you want it or not. You know, there’s a phone app that usually integrates with your garage door.
Emily Souliotes: And then, we have a lot of customers that have rental properties. Right? So they’re changing out their doors or their gates. And a lot of those are the access points for their customers and for their renters and they want to be able to have the security that they need. And so, yes, those access controls are a big deal to them and potentially, you know, is a make or break for their business.
Lee Kantor: Yeah, I didn’t even think of that. That must really – that is a must-have for anybody who’s like Airbnb or doing some sort of rental. They need to have a –
Emily Souliotes: Yeah.
Lee Kantor: A way to, you know, turn it on and off.
Emily Souliotes: Yeah. I mean, they have people coming in constantly, whether it’s cleaners or maintenance people. And then, you know, the guests themselves need to get in and out.
Emily Souliotes: And then the same for some of the higher-end communities that we serve in the San Diego area. I mean, we have a lot of homes that are on estates that have multiple gates or multiple access points and door systems, and same thing they need to let people in and out. And, you know, all that is handled by these systems and needs to be up and running for people to be able to do their jobs.
Lee Kantor: Now, in your business, I would imagine in San Diego, there’s a lot of people with boats and things like that, or that’s a whole other kind of door and building that the boats go into. Right?
Emily Souliotes: Yeah. I would say we work more with people that have extra vehicles or terrain. We have a lot of clientele that have RVs and a lot of extra vehicles for vacations and stuff that, that on their property that, that sort of they house in, more commercial-looking buildings on their property with big commercial roll-up doors. And I would say that’s as far as we get into that.
Emily Souliotes: We also have a lot of commercial clients that have products in big warehouse-type settings too with commercial roll-up doors. For example, we had a property that stored a lot of their theme park floats and things, you know, on-site, but they needed them to be secured. And so we installed over, I think, 20-foot high door that needed to be able to house all these floats. So we get some kind of cool projects like that, too.
Lee Kantor: And then you can – it doesn’t matter. Like, you can create it no matter what need they have. You can kind of figure it out, right? That’s your superpower.
Emily Souliotes: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we have a technician that’s done, you know, been in this industry over 20 years, and I have yet to see him not be successful in, you know, making sure a customer gets what they need, whether it’s from getting the product and just deciding the product and then actually getting all the way to the install. You know, maybe construction, it wasn’t as easy or there’s been some odd things.
Emily Souliotes: Construction is a really – it’s a solutions-based industry, right? Everyone, you know, usually comes to us needing a solution. They might have a problem at hand and they’re trying to find solutions to it. And it’s not a one-size-fits-all mold. I mean, there’s so many different ways you can go about building something. And so, you know, we definitely pride ourselves on doing it the right way and making sure that people get what they want in the end and that it’s a good solution.
Lee Kantor: Now, why was it important for you to become part of the WBEC-West community? Like, what were your expectations and what have you gotten out of it so far?
Emily Souliotes: So, I felt pretty strongly that I wanted to have a presence in the community. And, as a woman in an ownership role, I felt that the biggest thing for me was to connect with other women business owners, right? I mean, not only am I a woman-owned business, so it’s something that is not as common, but it’s also in a field that’s not as common. Right? Construction industry is just pretty male-dominated. And so, I felt like if there were going to be any groups that would support me in my journey, I wanted to be a part of them. And so WBENC was definitely one of those.
Lee Kantor: And then have you found it to be as collaborative as you hoped?
Emily Souliotes: Yeah. So, I’m a little bit newer into the organization. This has been my first year and I’m about to renew for a second year. But I would say it’s really inspiring. I went to my first event this past year, and to be able to just talk to people face-to-face, hear about their journey as well was really inspiring. It’s amazing how much relationships I think make the difference, and that’s what I’m learning. I think if I have any advice, it’s sort of like, that’s where I’m starting to realize that just building relationships, whether you think people are in your same industry or able to help you, or maybe you might be able to help them without knowing, that’s been something that I’m quickly learning.
Lee Kantor: Now, what do you need more of? How could we help you?
Emily Souliotes: You know, just connecting with companies in the San Diego area that would partner with us and, you know, we can support them as well. We like to give back to the community as well. I’m heavily involved with Boys & Girls Club in the San Diego area, and just making sure that organizations like that get what they need. But, you know, really connecting with other commercial, commercial companies and bigger businesses in the San Diego area is something that we really aim to do in the next couple of years.
Lee Kantor: Like, what are some groups or industries that are good, kind of referral partners or good people for you to know?
Emily Souliotes: Yeah. So we really try to support commercial companies that need to maintain their own products for their tenants, for example, so apartment complexes or retail spaces that need to make sure that they stay open and that they have gates or serviceable areas, access control that needs to maintain a certain level of workability. And then obviously, if they’re, you know, if we can support the residential community as well, you know, we love to; we really love inviting people into our showroom.
Emily Souliotes: The other thing we’re partnering with later or partnering with now is the interior design community and remodeling community. Right? Just making sure that people have resources that they need, learning about garage doors. You know, I know it’s in the construction industry, but it is design-influenced, and there’s some fun aspects to it. And so we really love inviting people into our showroom and giving them a little tour and, you know, hoping that they leave knowing a little bit more.
Lee Kantor: Right. I’m sure that they don’t know what they don’t know. They might have made some assumptions and, you know, kind of the ins and outs of this thing that you can really give them some options they hadn’t even considered.
Emily Souliotes: Yeah, absolutely. People don’t know there’s so much that goes into a garage door. Right? It’s a moving wall in the front of their home. I mean, it’s a big product. So there’s a lot of options there, and there’s a lot of cool innovative things that I think have come out in the last couple of years that we’re excited to always be the first to offer.
Lee Kantor: So if somebody wants to learn more and have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, is there a website? Is there a best way to connect?
Emily Souliotes: Absolutely. So you can definitely Google us or visit our website, radfordgaragedoor.com. We’re in a pretty central area in San Diego, which is nice. And so, the showroom is always open during the week, Monday through Friday. Walk-ins, welcome. We love anyone that wants to come visit us.
Lee Kantor: Well, Emily, thank you so much for sharing your story today. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.
Emily Souliotes: Thank you so much, Lee. Much appreciated.
Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Women In Motion.
BRX Pro Tip: Don’t Let Planning Be a Crutch
BRX Pro Tip: Don’t Let Planning Be a Crutch
Stone Payton: [00:00:00] And we are back with BRX Pro Tips. Stone Payton and Lee Kantor here with you this morning. Good plans are great. Great plans are good. But if you’re not careful, Lee, planning really can become a crutch, can it?
Lee Kantor: [00:00:16] Yeah. I think a lot of stuff out there that you read is about how to plan, and the importance of creating a good plan, and preparation is so critical for success. And all that’s true. But if you don’t really manage that properly, it can become a crutch or an excuse because, at some point, you have to move from plan to execution. And it’s much better to get ideas out of your head and off the whiteboard and into the real world, so you can learn from real data rather than just imagine what could be or what might happen or whatever.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:52] It’s better to execute and iterate rather than plan and imagine. Get real data fast, learn, and tweak. You’ll see what works and what doesn’t work faster, and you’re going to get farther sooner rather than spending lots and lots of time just sitting there imagining and planning. And what if this happened and what if that happened? Put it in action, see what happens in real life, and then make your adjustments.
BRX Pro Tip: How to Make a Good Habit Stick
BRX Pro Tip: How to Make a Good Habit Stick
Stone Payton: Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips. Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, let’s talk a little bit about habits and, specifically, how to make a good habit stick.
Lee Kantor: Yeah. I’m a big believer in habits. I think that most of our behavior is kind of habitual. And the trick is to make good habits stick and to make bad habits not stick. And it’s kind of the same methodology for both sides of this equation. So, in order to make a good habit stick, you have to make it easier for yourself to do the new good behavior and you have to make it harder on yourself to do the not so good behavior.
Lee Kantor: An example of this is, like, say you want to lose weight or you want to eat less junk food. What you would do is you would not put M&M’s in a bowl near you, because if you do that, you’re going to just grab the M&M’s throughout the day and you’ve made eating M&M’s too easy on yourself. But if you put fruit in a bowl or grapes in a bowl near you, you would be encouraging yourself to grab a handful of grapes throughout the day. So, that’s what you have to do, is, you have to make it easy for you to do the good behavior and make it difficult to do the bad behavior.
Lee Kantor: So, in business, that might be I want to increase my productivity. So, what I’m going to do is, I’m going to turn my notifications off my phone so every time it bings or buzzes, I’m not grabbing it to see what’s there anytime somebody is trying to email me or text me or some new news thing happened. And I’m also going to take my phone and put it in another room because I want to focus on doing some deep, high impact work. This way, I’m not going to be distracted and I’m not going to be checking my phone because it’s going to be a little bit more difficult to do.
Lee Kantor: Now, I can do it if I want to, but I got to really want to. I got to get up and go across the room to get my phone. But if I want to sit in front of my computer and write a blog post or write an article, then I’m going to sit on my computer. I’m not going to get up. So, make it easy for yourself to do the good behavior and make it just a little difficult to do the not so good behavior. And you’ll see those good habits are going to stick and the bad habits will slowly go away.
BRX Pro Tip: Less Advice, More Encouragement
BRX Pro Tip: Less Advice, More Encouragement
Stone Payton: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips. Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, you are of the opinion that, for the most part, what people really need is less advice and more encouragement.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:13] Yeah. I think it’s kind of a pendulum. I think giving advice is helpful. But there’s also a place for giving encouragement. And for most people, they’ve heard your advice, and what they need is kind of you helping them believe that they can do it. And telling them, “Yes, you can do this. Yes, your dreams can come true. Yes, you are talented enough.” I think people need more yes as you can than they need more of here’s what you’re doing wrong.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:43] So, do what we do at Business RadioX every day and support and celebrate the people around you. People need to be appreciated. People need people like you to appreciate them. So, please spend some of your day appreciating the folks around you because they are important parts of the community. And to have the role as chief cheerleader and encourager and supporter is not a bad role to have.
BRX Pro Tip: Ways to Capitalize on LinkedIn
BRX Pro Tip: Ways to Capitalize on LinkedIn
Stone Payton: [00:00:00] Welcome back to BRX Pro Tips. Stone Payton and Lee Kantor here with you. Lee, let’s talk about LinkedIn. What are some ways to capitalize on LinkedIn to serve our clients, and get out there, and market what we’re doing, and fulfill the promises that we’re making?
Lee Kantor: [00:00:18] One of the things that I like a lot about LinkedIn is the ability to connect with people and to send them a message that kind of bypasses their email or bypasses a lot of different places. And a lot of people look at the messages from LinkedIn and will respond to them. So, some of the ways that we’ve used LinkedIn in the past in our studio is when we’re trying to target a group of people, like if we know that we want to target CPAs or we wanna target payroll companies or marketing firms, we can make a search, and we could do that in a given market, we could do it in any type. We can kind of narrow down the list.
Lee Kantor: [00:00:54] And then, because our profile is that of which we run the studios and where the media, most people connect with us just by sending that out. But you can customize it even more and you can ask the people, “Hey, you know what? We’re looking for interesting guests that are CPAs. Do you know any of them? Please connect with me to discuss.” Our access to our platform is a great way to connect with people, the ideal prospect, and we can invite them to be on the show, we can invite to interview them, we can ask them for referrals in terms of other guests. And after the show, it’s a great way to connect with them if you’re not connected and saying, “I really enjoyed having you in the studio. Please connect.” And so, it’s very easy to build a really robust LinkedIn kind of group just through having access to our platform and having a show.
Stone Payton: [00:01:48] LinkedIn is a great tool anyway for most business people, I think, and maybe we’re a little bit spoiled. But particularly, for us, as media, I mean, it is just a marvelous tool. People want to connect with us. And that is such a robust tool for beginning the relationship. And then, even on the backside of shows, there’s just so much you can do to thank people for being on the show and to share the contents. It’s a marvelous vehicle for us.