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Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan with Baylor College of Medicine and The Michael E. DeBakey VA Medical Center

July 8, 2025 by angishields

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Houston Business Radio
Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan with Baylor College of Medicine and The Michael E. DeBakey VA Medical Center
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Madhuri-VasudevanDr. Madhuri Vasudevan is a board-certified endocrinologist and faculty member at Baylor College of Medicine, known for her integrative approach to healing that unites science, nutrition, and holistic wellness.

Through her work—especially with veterans at the VA—she empowers patients to thrive by harnessing their body’s natural ability to heal, using both medical therapies and lifestyle-based strategies. Her online platform, Healthy Eating and Low Inflammatory Nutrition Garden, features vibrant, simple, and nutrient-rich recipes that support low-inflammation living.

In her conversation with Trisha Stetzel, Dr. Vasudevan shared her personal and professional journey, including her dedication to patient-centered care, her love for dance, and how movement and creativity influence her healing philosophy. Six-Figure-Chicks-logo

She opened up about recent health challenges, the lessons she’s learned in setting boundaries, and the importance of authentic friendships. Madhuri also spoke about her contribution to a collaborative book project, highlighting the role of community, collaboration, and optimism in navigating life’s challenges and creating positive change.

Connect with Dr. Vasudevan on Facebook.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: Hello. Houston Trisha Stetzel here bringing you another episode of Houston Business Radio. I am so excited to have another sister on with me today. Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan is with me today. Uh, assistant professor of endocrinology at Baylor College of Medicine and the Michael E DeBakey VA medical center. Dr. Madhuri, an endocrinologist and faculty member at Baylor College of Medicine, empowers her patients to heal from within by harnessing their natural ability to thrive, not just survive, while thoughtfully integrating medical All therapies when needed. Doctor Madhuri, thank you so much for being on with me today.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much, Trisha. This is just an exciting opportunity and I’m really grateful to have it. Thank you.

Trisha Stetzel: Well, I’m so excited. So you and I met through, uh, Mel C, uh, for the Six Figure Chicks book. And I, when we were all introducing ourselves, I said I was a veteran. You said I work at the VA hospital, and I knew immediately that I was in the right room. I’m so excited to have you on, um, talking today. So tell us a little bit more about you, and then let’s dive into what you’re doing for your patients.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Okay. Wonderful. So, um, my background is I was born and raised here in Houston. Um, I went to school here, undergraduate here. And, um, some of the things I love to do as a child and still do is, uh, I love listening to music. I love dancing. All styles of dance. Any kind of music you put on, I’m ready to jump up and down and have fun. Yes, exactly. Um, and, uh, you know, I’ve made some. My best friends were through the medical school years and, um, training and everything that followed. Um, two kids and, you know, we we work here in the medical center. Um, as a physician, I initially in my medical school, years of training, I was be lining it to cardiology. I was fascinated by heart and physiology and was sure I wanted to do that. And I had a very kind of pivotal experience in my second year of training, where I met a young lady that was dealing with multiple chronic conditions, that looking at her and she and I were the same age. I thought to myself, what could have changed in her life that could have shaped her, or directed her in a way to protect herself, to heal her body and perhaps prevent the conditions that she was facing. And that really directed me and inspired me to pursue a fellowship training in endocrinology. So that’s the study of diabetes, hormones and metabolism. And, uh, I, uh, as a, uh, after completing my training, I came back to the VA back in 2012.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: And I remember when I reached out to my chief at the time and I said, is there any job at the VA? You know, those are hard to come by, but could you tell me if there’s anything? And he said, as a matter of fact, there’s something about diabetes. And I said, sign me up. I’m ready. Pick me. And, uh, I was so excited when I got the job. Um, I was the first person here at the Houston VA to create a dedicated insulin pump program. So that’s my kind of clinical niche is in taking care of patients that have diabetes, that are on insulin pumps and devices that can help. Support their diabetes care. Protect them from high and low you know, extremes of blood sugar and really help protect their organs over time. And I love what I do. And through that experience of of starting these programs, what happens day to day during my practice is I talk a lot about food. I talk a lot about nutrition. And and lots of different questions come up that spurred my curiosity. So I started asking myself, learn. Let me learn a little bit about how food affects the body. And so that is my love is how to help patients heal through nutrition, heal through holistic means, reduce their inflammation in the body, and use the medications that are there as life saving measures. So a nutshell. Yeah, that’s.

Trisha Stetzel: A good coconut shell that you do so much in all of the communities that you’re supporting and with your patients. And thank you for being such an amazing human being. Uh, number one. And then, of course, as a physician helping people. And I love that you’re talking about food, because when we take care of our bodies, our bodies are our amazing machines, right? And they can heal themselves in a lot of cases when we’re feeding them the right food and nutrition. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that. So one of the things if it’s okay, I’m going to kind of pivot to to you, you’re a physician. You work in multiple areas. You have two daughters. You have a lot going on in your life. So how how are you able to set boundaries or how do you learn or have you learned to really set boundaries in the work that you’re doing?

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: I think that is one of the best questions and most kind of deep questions that a lot of women face when we’re busy with work and busy with life. And, uh, So let’s see. Setting boundaries. This is a difficult question. Um, from the time I was a kid and through my training years. The recurring theme is if somebody says do something or asks me, I say, yes. How much? How high? Yes, I can do it. Um, and the same work ethic has applied as I started my job here 13 years ago. Um, of course, there’s a sort of a demand that you prove yourself in the beginning and that you demonstrate your productivity. Uh, and I took that to kind of an nth degree so early in the course of my training. And really, I would say up until just about a year ago, I had not learned effectively how to set boundaries for myself. And as a result, I started adding so many tasks to my plate that I became exhausted. Um, and just to share. So my husband is a pediatric surgeon, and about a year and a half ago, he came home one day and he said, you work so many hours and you’re up so many nights that you get less sleep than he does. And to put it in context, he has to do sometimes 12 hour surgeries, 20 hour surgeries.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: And he said, really, there’s something wrong with this picture. You need a break. You need to realign and try to restrict yourself, get a little balance back. Um, as a as a physician and a mom and. Et cetera, et cetera. As the boss of the house. You know, it’s hard to listen when, um, when he’s giving me that good advice, but I did. As a result of this past year and my healing journey, I have learned the value and the importance of setting boundaries. And I’ve also come to the realization how that is tied into what many of us go through is imposter syndrome. Um, feeling that I’m not good enough and I have to keep proving myself. And, uh, just to kind of jump into that topic. I have come to the realization that, first of all, I am good enough. Took me a long time to just say those words and really believe them and that, um, that secondly, I don’t have to prove myself. You know, and I really never had to. But it is a lesson that I’ve learned, and I’m feel so joyful. The, the, the, you know, the moment that I came to that realization, I felt like this burden was lifted off my shoulders. And I felt a lightness and a freedom to just do the work I love without feeling like I’m judging myself against some standard that no one else imposed on me.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Um, so yeah, I think setting boundaries is something so essential to leading a balanced life. And I listened to an interesting, uh, podcast by a famous motivational speaker. Uh, his name is Simon Sinek, and it really struck me when I listened to him, he said that a strong woman knows how to establish and understand the difference between being kind and being nice and being kind. Is that you’re filled with compassion, that what you do, you serve or help because of a genuine interest. But being nice is something that we often do when we’re seeking validation from somebody else, or seeking a little bit of a justification for the hard work that we’re doing. And so I have really sort of toed that line of nice being nice for a long time. And now, I mean, I’m a nice person, but I’m learning how to establish those boundaries and and not let go of my authentic self. You know, I am a genuinely kind and compassionate person and I love to to share that. So. So I guess the story is, yes, establishing boundaries is critical. And it’s been a journey for me for sure.

Trisha Stetzel: Thank you for sharing all of that. I’m a big fan of Simon Sinek as well And I love this. It’s not something that I’ve heard before. The difference between being kind and nice and I completely resonates with me. Yeah. Yeah. Because as women, we’re not very good at saying no. And it takes practice and we put everyone else ahead of ourselves. And as a physician, you know, and especially someone who’s very keen into nutrition and feeding our bodies the right food and getting rest and all of the the holistic approach, you know, that if we’re not taking care of ourselves first, that we can’t take care of anyone else in the way that we want to. Right. Uh, thank you for sharing that. So it sounds like you have a really great support system at home because it was your husband that said, okay, enough. Something has to shift. How important is it to surround yourself with people who are going to help you with those boundaries and the balance that you’ve set out for?

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: That’s a great question. So, you know, finding people. And I think this is something that I learned. I’ve learned over the years. True genuine friendships. What it means those chosen sisters, as I, you know, like to refer to to you and all my new lovely friends. And then the real, deep, genuine relationships I’ve had over the years. Those are the people you can be yourself with. You can laugh. You can be vulnerable. And you know they’re not judging you, and they’re only there to support you in your, you know, as you grow as a person and and that, you know, you feel the same for them. Um, this, this experience of, of making that network or that sort of web of support. It starts, I think, for me, with my, my immediate family. So my husband, I actually have an older son and a younger daughter. And so my son, he’s 18 now has been kind of this similar to my husband, just this wealth of calm and and uh, reassurance at home. Um, they’ve sort of taken over it in the past year when I wasn’t able to do a lot of physical work at home. And, uh, and then I have, you know, kind of extending from that core. It’s my my parents, my in-laws, my siblings and their families, and those are my family.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: You know, they are my family. And I love them all. Um, but it’s my friends, the ones that I have, uh, cultivated a lifetime of friendship and love with. And then new friends that I’ve met along the way that have really given me a newfound appreciation for what it means to have friendship, you know, and again, to, to sort of reference Simon Sinek, I don’t know, he’s inspired in me in many ways. He talked about this during a recent TEDx talk or a lecture that he gave that it’s one of the few things that we don’t have a metric for. But friendship is so crucial to living a fulfilled life. You know, we as humans. And this is just my feeling. We as humans are social animals and we cannot survive in a silo or in an independent space. We need that connection and establishing those good vibrations. So yeah, I absolutely have grown to appreciate friends over the years and especially in the past year. It’s truly the universe that has brought these dear friends into my life. I never thought I would be sitting here having this amazing conversation with you. Um, but it’s truly because of this network of good friends that I’ve met along the way.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to apologize to your son because I know he’s going to listen to this because earlier I said you had two daughters and you have a son. So to your son, my apologies. I’m just glad that I.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Know.

Trisha Stetzel: We’re about halfway through our conversation. I’d love for you to share your, um, contact information or a website where people can reach out if they’re already interested in learning more about you or even the work that you’re doing. Absolutely.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: So I have a website. That website is called Madhuri dances.com. So that’s my first name, Madhuri. And then the word dance is dances.com. And there’s a contact, uh, link on the website. And you can just send me your name and, uh, and it will generate an email response to me and that will come to my personal email. And I think that’s the best way if anybody’s interested in reaching out or has questions. Um, I work at the VA. So, uh, from a professional standpoint, I see patients only through the VA system. I teach at Baylor College of Medicine and have, uh, the opportunity and privilege to teach the students there and residents and fellows and training. But the best way for anybody kind of outside of that sphere to reach me is probably through the website.

Trisha Stetzel: Beautiful. Thank you so much. So since you brought it up about dancing, you mentioned it a little bit earlier. And it’s also in, in the way that we should be contacting you. Sure. I understand that you’re, um, and we talked about this before we started recording that you’re really, um, tuned into the power of language and even the non-verbal communication or cues. Can you talk more about that? Absolutely.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Sure. I’d love to. So, um, from a very young age, about five or so, I was given the opportunity to learn Indian classical dance. And Indian classical dance is this beautiful art form, age old tradition of storytelling. But a lot of the storytelling is is not just, uh, acting out the words, but it’s expressing it through your face, through your hands. So I found myself as a little girl, just entranced by the storytelling aspects of Indian classical dance. As a young girl, I was, and I was really curious and fascinated by the story of Helen Keller and how she was able to communicate through sign language. Despite the fact that she was blind, dumb and and, you know, blind and couldn’t speak and couldn’t hear. So I was just really phenomenally amazed by her determination and communication skills. So I even learned a sign language in the college years and had the opportunity to work with children who are hearing impaired. And again, over the years, it’s just been something that I feel connected with, and that is how to communicate with somebody or or learn from them, some of their non-verbal cues. So for example, if I’m seeing a patient in clinic and they maybe feel a little bad about something in their life, I will I will look at their body body language and ask, you know, tell me what’s going on. Even if it has nothing to do with the reason that I’m seeing them, because I’m really invested in my patient as a whole, not just getting through the visit and let’s, you know, adjust the medications and see you in a couple of months. So it’s those nonverbal cues that I sort of want to pick up on on a daily basis.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: And in addition to me looking and observing, I also want to make sure that I’m sensitive to how I am displaying my own physicality. Um, for example, if I’m seeing somebody and I have to give them guidance, I don’t want them to ever feel I’m judging them. So, you know, having a friendly face, a smile, uh, a reassuring presence. It makes a difference in how we as healthcare providers come off when we’re talking to our patients. Um, I know as a patient over the years and most recently in the past year, if I walk into the patient to the doctor’s office and I immediately feel that the the doctor may be busy or distracted or, you know, have already made a plan before listening. I already feel sort of defeated, and it’s not a criticism of any specific physician. It’s just the world of medicine and the challenges that we face as health care providers. So trying to be in tune to that is is something that I hold dear. But it all stems from my love of not only Indian classical dance, but I should say this Scottish Highland dancing. I’ve done competitive Scottish Highland dancing for the majority of my young years, for about from the age of 8 to 18, so ten years of my life, and had the good fortune to compete and place at the US Championships and at the World Championships. So, um, yet another part of my dancing journey and testament credit to my teachers for their, their love and and guidance for me.

Trisha Stetzel: Wow, that is beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It is so important that, um, we show respect for the person that we’re sitting in front of. Whether and I like to even think about even on zoom, uh, there are ways that we can create nonverbal communication with each other. And it’s so important to create that space where we’re comfortable talking to each other and that, you know, that I’m not distracted doing something else. Right. Uh, and we see a lot of physicians who are still, since 2020, doing online communication with their patients. So, uh, takes practice and.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Takes.

Speaker4: A lot of practice. Absolutely.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: One of the things I love now is that I get to enjoy this, the dancing experience, the love of dance with my daughter. So she and I are have the opportunity to dance together and, you know, kind of share in that journey.

Trisha Stetzel: Oh, I love that. Uh, so any particular type of dance that your daughter loves?

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Yes. So, um, like me, She does also learn Indian classical dance. And it’s it’s sort of something we share as a family, as a culture. It’s part of our heritage. Um, it helps me, I think, during my times of stress, if I can just get on the dance floor and practice a little, I just immediately feel better. And I’m so happy that she loves that. The same way that I do. She goes to the same school that I went to, and so she’s also a Scottish Highland dancer. Um, so cool for her that she gets to have that same experience, but in her own special way. And what I’m also equally thrilled about is she also learns ballet, uh, something that I always, uh, love watching but never had the opportunity to learn. So she’s, um, blessed to have. And, you know, we’re very grateful that she has the opportunity to learn those three styles.

Trisha Stetzel: Oh, my gosh, that’s wonderful. What is your daughter’s name?

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Mira.

Trisha Stetzel: Mira. That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of these amazing things about you. And I want to bring up one more amazing thing about you. Uh, a published author for six figure chicks. Houston, volume one. How exciting is that? So exciting. I know. Me too. Um, here’s what I. Oh, and by the way, anybody who’s listening or watching this, you can go and get your copy. Uh, the E version is already out, and the hard copy or soft back copy will also be following that. You can find it on Amazon. So go to Amazon and look up six figure chicks Houston. And you can read 17 amazing stories. So how number one how did you meet Mel. And number two. Why did you decide to say yes to this opportunity?

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Wonderful. This has been the most fun adventure I have been on in so long. Um, and so question one. How did I meet Mel? So in the early part of I’m sorry, in the fall of 2024, that is this this past fall, I had to take an extended leave of absence from work for a health crisis. I ended up having this debilitating inflammation, uh, inflammation that was causing some debilitating, um, physical limitations. So much so that I couldn’t walk. Couldn’t really move. Um, uh, and, uh, it took a couple of doctors and, and discussions to realize what was going on with my body. And again, my body was talking to me, sort of screaming at me, telling me to take a break. So around August is when I decided to take an extended leave of absence from work, not really knowing when I was going to go back to work. And by about December, I started to feel. Um. Thanks. You know. You know, with. For a variety of reasons and with God’s grace, I started to feel better. To the point that I could start walking again and moving again with with ease. Um, and I have been part of this beautiful group of women in Houston. It’s called a collective. And the collective is a, uh, one of the founders of the collective, and I, she and I have known each other through dance, interestingly, you know, um, enough.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: And, uh, so she reached out to me and said, hey, come and join this group. And the first several sessions as I was joining it, truly, it was very difficult to get there to to sit and be a part of the sessions, but it gave me the opportunity to meet these beautiful women and to listen to their stories. It had nothing to do with me and everything to do with the group. Um, I think it helped me to sort of disconnect from my pain and difficulty and really, um, appreciate the the beauty of these wonderful women. It was through one of those women, Julie Flowers, who is also a published author in our book, uh, that she connected me to Mel. And so Mel then reached out to me and said, hey, would you be interested in writing a chapter for this book? Uh, in the beginning, I thought to myself, what would I write about? You know, I have lovely I have lovely experiences, uh, that I would love to share exciting experiences from work. But the thing that was 100% in my mind was my healing at the time.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: And so I agreed to write it because I thought I would benefit from the process of writing down what was going on with me and how I’m processing it. How am I recovering? What is my vision of the future, of my complete recovery and total healing? And so I said, you know, I’m going to do this as an exercise and put it out there. Um, once I finished writing the article or the chapter, I really felt this new feeling that I wanted to share it with so many women that so many people are going through something. Maybe it’s not the same condition that I went through. It might be an emotional roller coaster or psychological or another physical ailment, or maybe just business related, work related, family related, any aspect of our lives that we’re challenged by. And I felt that the lessons I’ve learned were universal lessons that I thought would apply to all of my chosen sisters and women that I wanted to share. So it was it came from a place of healing. It, um, I felt very vulnerable in the beginning, exposing myself like that. But now I feel content knowing it’s out there as a as a tool for any woman who’s looking to recover.

Trisha Stetzel: That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And you’re not alone. I think all of us who have written a chapter for this book, and even ones that have come before it, have felt a bit vulnerable and uncomfortable that we were unveiling something. One thing that I will share here is one of my early readers sent me a text message the day that she was reading my chapter, and she said I had to Google this because I didn’t know what it meant. And she showed me the screenshot of the of what she googled, and she said, this totally applies to me. And I’m so glad that you wrote this, because I feel like it was just for me. And I’m going to start a book club so that I can have other women read all of the stories in this book. And that was the day that I knew there was a purpose behind writing this chapter and for all of us, all 17 of us for writing chapters in this book, because it even if it’s just one person that we can move or shift or change or even a new idea. Right? It’s so important.

Speaker4: It’s so.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Important. And it’s this ripple effect. You know, it’s this, this visual of like, electricity. You spark it here and it creates this ripple effect of a beautiful, powerful energy. Just goodness that’s coming out of it. So.

Trisha Stetzel: Absolutely. And I’m so blessed to have met you. I’m glad to call you one of my sisters. Yeah. Even even though it started with six figure chicks. Houston, it will go way beyond that. And I appreciate you so much being on the show today. Is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with today as we close up?

Speaker4: I would just first.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Of all, I loved I would love to share, thanks to you and for giving me this opportunity. It’s wonderful to share this platform with you and something that’s new for me. This is the first time I’m doing this kind of, uh, interview. Um, for my for your viewers, I would say believe in yourself, believe in the goodness that’s within. You know that it’s there no matter what you’re struggling with, no matter what’s going on. And believe in that innate strength that you have. And when times are tough. Yes. You know, there are so many adages and adages of of the going get tough or whatnot. But the truth is, in the quietness of your mind and the and the beauty of your heart, really believe in yourself first and then reach out for your chosen sisters, for your friends that support you and your family. And in the middle of all that, have some fun, play some music, jump off the band and that lightness, that light heartedness will carry you through some of the challenging times that we all inevitably will fit. Absolutely.

Trisha Stetzel: And wear some fun shoes. By the way, if you haven’t seen the pictures of us six figure chicks, Houston volume one, you’ll know exactly who has the most fun shoes.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: I love it, I love it. The hot pink stilettos and black shoes, they’re my favorite.

Trisha Stetzel: I love that that’s so much fun. Thank you again so much for being my guest today.

Dr. Madhuri Vasudevan: Thank you and all the very best.

Trisha Stetzel: Thank you. That’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that we had today, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, a veteran or Houston leaders that are ready to grow and learn something new. Be sure to follow, rate, and review the show that helps us reach more bold business minds. Just like yours and your business, your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.

 

Tagged With: Baylor College of Medicine, The Michael E. DeBakey VA Medical Center

BRX Pro Tip: How Well Are You Holding Yourself Accountable?

July 8, 2025 by angishields

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BRX Pro Tip: How Well Are You Holding Yourself Accountable?
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BRX Pro Tip: How Well Are You Holding Yourself Accountable?

Stone Payton: And we are back with Business RadioX Pro Tip. Stone Payton and Lee Kantor here with you this afternoon. Lee, today’s question, and it’s a question that we should be asking ourselves, how well are you holding yourself accountable?

Lee Kantor: Yeah. Everybody talks about accountability, but they don’t like to usually get that on them. So, it’s important to hold yourself just as accountable as you’re holding all the people on your team. You know, are you tracking what you did well during your last project? Did you track what you did poorly? Are you making the same mistakes over and over again? Do you need more help? Maybe a coach would be useful. Maybe a board of advisors could help you get to a new level. If you’re frustrated with your results, then try something different. Don’t keep doing the same thing that isn’t working over and over again.

Lee Kantor: Accountability is an important part of growth and you should try, at least hold yourself accountable for some of the work you’re doing each week. Go back at the end of the week. Look back and go, okay, did that work? Did this not work? And then, you’ll find a pattern. If you see yourself making the same mistakes over and over again, stop it. But becoming aware of it is the first step to kind of addressing it. So, hold yourself as accountable to yourself as you hold your team accountable to you.

Navigating Payroll Complexity: How GetPayroll Can Save Your Business Time and Money

July 7, 2025 by angishields

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Navigating Payroll Complexity: How GetPayroll Can Save Your Business Time and Money
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In this episode of Veteran Business Radio, Lee Kantor talks with Charles Read, CEO of GetPayroll. Charles shares his journey from Marine Corps service to payroll expert, highlighting the challenges small businesses face with payroll management. He explains the benefits of outsourcing payroll, staying compliant with IRS regulations, and how GetPayroll supports clients through onboarding and collaboration with CPAs. Charles also discusses common pitfalls, IRS notices, and the differences between payroll providers and PEOs, offering practical advice for business owners seeking efficient payroll solutions.

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Charles-ReadCharles J Read is a Certified Public Accountant (CPA), U.S Tax Court Practitioner ( USTCP), a former member of the Internal Revenue Service Advisory Council (IRSAC), a Vietnam Veteran, and the Founder of GetPayroll.

Mr. Read’s companies have provided full-service payroll, payroll tax, and other payroll-related services since 1991.

Connect with Charles on LinkedIn.

Episode Highlights

  • Overview of payroll services offered by GetPayroll for small and medium-sized businesses.
  • Discussion on the complexities and challenges of payroll management.
  • Importance of outsourcing payroll tasks to professional services.
  • Charles Read’s personal journey from military service to CPA and payroll business owner.
  • Common misconceptions among business owners regarding self-managing payroll.
  • The significance of staying updated with IRS regulations and tax requirements.
  • Guidance on how to respond to IRS notices and appeals.
  • Insights on Professional Employer Organizations (PEOs) and their cost-effectiveness compared to direct payroll services.
  • Onboarding process for new clients at GetPayroll.
  • Collaboration between GetPayroll and clients’ CPAs to streamline accounting processes.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Veterans Business Radio, brought to you by ATL vets, providing the tools and support that help veteran owned businesses thrive. For more information, go to at vets. Now here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of Veterans Business Radio, and this episode is brought to you by ATL vets, inspiring veterans to build their foundation success and empowering them to become the backbone of society after the uniform. For more information, go to ATL vets.org. Today on the show we have Charles Read. He is the CEO of GetPayroll. Welcome.

Charles Read: Lee, it’s a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about GetPayroll. How are you serving folks?

Charles Read: Well, we provide payroll services to small and medium sized businesses around the United States. We handle everything. You tell us what your employees, the number of hours they worked. We already know how much they get paid. We do all the calculations. We create the paychecks, direct deposits, get them paid. Then we file all the taxes, all the reports, and do all the interfacing with the IRS and the states and so on to make sure you don’t have to.

Lee Kantor: So what’s your backstory? How’d you get involved in this line of work?

Charles Read: Well, I left the Marine Corps, uh, after four years. Work realized that business did not value military experience then. Just like now. So I went to college, got my degrees, went to work in business, worked in corporate world for about 15 years, got fed up with that and decided to open my own firm, hung up my own shingle as is a CPA and had payroll as a sideline, and payroll has grown and grown and grown and sold off the CPA business. And now we’re a payroll company.

Lee Kantor: So what are some maybe things that business owners don’t appreciate of partnering with a payroll company like yourself, instead of just trying to kind of power through it on their own?

Charles Read: Well, my analogy is when I grew up, Pelé was the world’s best soccer player. A wonderful athlete recently passed. But if you take Pele and you’d put him in a New York Yankees uniform at second base, he would be absolutely lost. He wouldn’t know the game. The rules. Pick up the ball with your hands. He’d still be a great athlete, but he’d be totally lost. So you take a businessman who’s successful at what they do, and now you say deal with the IRS. They’re an engineer. They’re an accountant. They’re a marketer. They’re. They’re a mechanic. They’re a cook. Whatever. They don’t know the IRS. They’re at second base. They’re totally lost. That’s where we come in. We’re experts at this. We’ll backstop you. We’ll take care of all that. We’ll make sure that the IRS stays out of your kitchen and out of your pocket as much as possible, so you just don’t have to worry about it. The time and trouble and cost. You would have to spend to be able to do what we do. You wouldn’t be able to be in business because what we do for a living. So that’s where we come in. We allow you to outsource that to a professional at a pittance and just solve all those problems.

Lee Kantor: Now the companies that are trying to do it on their own, is it something that they start small and then it’s like maybe manageable for 1 or 2 people, and then all of a sudden they got a few people and now it’s getting complicated. And they put somebody that’s, like you said, not an expert. That just is kind of Volun told to do this work, and then they get in over their head.

Charles Read: Well, you’d think that. But in reality, most small businesses screw it up. They get sideways with the IRS. They get sideways with the state, with either the state Revenue department or state unemployment department, because they don’t know what they’re supposed to do. They don’t understand how to classify employees. They don’t understand what taxes have to be collected and paid, when they have to be paid, what forms they have to file. All those things, all those complexities of a business entirely outside of the business they’ve chosen to be in. So yeah, you’d think they could start out small and get away with it, but in fact, they don’t. They get into problems even if they’re just trying to pay themselves as a single employee corporation. That’s what happens. And when they get a little bigger, then those errors multiply and come to the attention. And now it’s way too late. So our suggestion is the moment you have payroll, get a payroll provider. It’s not worth doing yourself. It just isn’t. When I was in corporate world, never tried to do payroll in-house. Just wouldn’t do it. It wasn’t worth it, I knew better. Uh, being a CPA. So, uh, no, they get into problems from day one because they they don’t know what they don’t know.

Lee Kantor: And then this is a situation where the rules are always changing. There’s so much nuance to this that this isn’t something that, like you said, if I’m a mechanic, I can’t be mechanics. And then, you know, learn about the latest IRS kind of new regulation.

Charles Read: I gave up trying to work on my car years ago. I had an milligram and the clutch was going out at 60,000 miles, which they always do. And I had my Chilton book and I opened it up to index and change the clutch. And I went to that chapter and it said to change your clutch. Step one. Remove the engine. See chapter seven. I closed the book and never opened it again. Okay, it’s worse with the IRS because the rules do change. You don’t know what they are, and if you’re not keeping up on them, you will not be current. It’s just like cars change the electronics and cars today. I have absolutely no idea what they do. None. I haven’t worked on a car in 50 years and it changes and it gets more complicated. And mechanics will tell you this, but they know it because they do it every day and they keep up on it. It’s their business. So their current when you take your car in to what’s going on, they get trained in it. I get trained on what’s going on with the Internal Revenue Service. I wish I was on the IRS Advisory Council for three years. Went up to Washington, you know, six times a year to work with them. So yeah, we get the trade journals. I get emails almost daily from from the States and from the IRS about changes. We get the trades. We all. We keep up with that. I don’t keep up with cars. I don’t keep up with a lot of things. I outsource a lot of things because that’s smart business. Uh, and people outsource payroll to us because that’s smart business, because we keep up with it.

Lee Kantor: So let’s let’s try to help our listeners and maybe, uh, share some of your expertise. So hypothetically, I get a notice from the IRS, which probably never is good news. I don’t think they send out birthday cards, but I get a notice. What? What do I do?

Charles Read: Well, first of all, is it wrong? And millions of them are. The IRS makes millions of mistakes every year. They won’t tell you that, but they do. 100,000 civil servants with technology, some of which goes back to the 1960s. So if they say you owe tax and you don’t. Now, if you do, just pay it. But if you don’t write a letter back to them explaining what what your position is, now, they’re going to ignore that letter. I guarantee you the first letter you write back, they will ignore. They will send you back and form a letter saying no, pay up. Your second letter. You may get a response that’s not automated. Canned response. Respond to that anyway. Your third letter then should go to the appeals coordinator, because each letter will tell you what you need to do. The appeals coordinator will actually look at what you’re saying. In all probability, they will deny your your your request to have that penalty abated. And so you continue to appeal it. There’s a whole series of appeals going up through and including Tax court that are available to you, both administrative and legal. And so whenever you’re dealing with a penalty appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal, you’re looking for that one person that says, yeah, okay. And then just shut up and take that and go away. Uh it will, in all probability happen at the worst. You get to Tax court and you’ll probably get an offer in settlement at some point, uh, for less than that. But the IRS cannot penalize you for simple mistakes, only for gross negligence in in for all practical purposes. So if you’re right. Appeal. Appeal appeal appeal. Sooner or later you’ll probably find somebody that says yes. Now if it’s $10, just pay it. It’s not worth fighting.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there? Uh, there’s a lot of talk about POWs. You have any thoughts on them?

Charles Read: Yeah, uh, I have POWs are an outsource of staff leasing. Uh, after all the legal problems that staff leasing had, they changed the name of the industry to get away from all the fraud convictions and so on. But it’s still the same business. It’s a way to shift tax burdens. Uh, Pose will promise you all kinds of things and charge you a fortune for basically nothing. Uh, we’ve never found a situation where we can’t take a company out of a P.O. and save them at least $1,000 per employee per year. Nobody buys a CPO. They’re sold a P.O.. Uh, the only thing they might do for you is offer you a Cadillac insurance policy for your employees that you couldn’t otherwise get. But you’re buying a Cadillac when you really want afford. So you’re going to pay through the nose for it. That’s about the only thing they can do that you can’t do on your own, or with the help of your payroll provider. We work with our clients, and we have contacts with all kinds of benefit providers that will produce a package that will handle all of this for you. Now, the one thing the POA peaoe does is they say, well, we’ll handle the air for you. But when Sally has a problem with a boyfriend, she’s not going to go cry on the po shoulder. She’s going to come to the boss and cry on his shoulder. So you’re really not getting much benefit.

Lee Kantor: So if I partner with Get Payroll, walk me through. Say, like you said, no business is too small and they should start. So I’m a I’m an entrepreneur, maybe a solopreneur. And I say, okay, I want to hand this off to Charles and his team. So walk me through what that looks like. You know what? What questions are you going to ask me, and what am I going to get for the service?

Charles Read: Well, if you’re a new business, we’re just going to ask you a few questions, get a few signatures because we take a 2848 an IRS power of attorney, limited power of attorney on every client. So we can advocate with the IRS for our clients and actually represent them up through and including tax court. Uh, because I’m not only am I a CPA, I’m also a US Tax Court practitioner, which allows me to represent clients in Tax court. So you’re going to sign a few pieces of paper, provide us some information, you know, names, addresses, rates of pay and so on. Then once per pay period, you’ll go into your computer and say, you know, people work 40, 80 hours, whatever. Or just pay all the salaries and we handle everything else. Send you copies of everything, copies of the payroll reports, copies of the reports. We file notices on what we’ve deposited for you and so on. What happens is you’ll send in the information to for the hours they worked. We’ll calculate that. Draft your bank account, pay out the employees, pay out the IRS, pay out the states, pay out the local taxing authorities, whatever, and file everything for you. So literally, you’re just going to have to keep track of. Sally worked 80 hours this pay period. You’re done.

Lee Kantor: And then. So And when I’m when I’m being onboarded. If I’m new to business, you, I have somebody on your team that’s going to kind of help me with any questions I have. Or is this something I have to.

Charles Read: Absolutely. We this this is this is what we do. We’re going to walk you through everything. Make sure everything is set up properly. Make sure that you get us set up with the states and or the local authorities and the IRS. Get all your numbers get because we can’t we can’t file the reports unless we have the identifying numbers. So we have a an organization that will do all that for you and file all that and make sure everything is, is copacetic. So you just don’t have those problems. So the only thing that’s going to happen. Is if there’s the IRS screws up, they’re going to send you a notice and we’ll fix it.

Lee Kantor: And so all all that’s happening is I have money in my bank account. And then you’re kind of allocating it to the proper places.

Charles Read: Absolutely. We’ll, we’ll we’ll draft your account and make all those payments for you. We do that. Uh, you know, I’m a CPA. I’m a licensed certified public accountant. Um, we do this for clients around the country. We have been in business for a third of a century. So, yeah, we’ll take care of it.

Lee Kantor: And then where does kind of the the, um, scope of work end? So you’re not my CPA. You’re just doing this one specific service around payroll.

Charles Read: Right. We handle the payroll and all the payroll reporting and all the aspects of payroll. Uh, and we handle ancillary payroll services. We can help you with benefits and and HR and employee handbooks and other associated things, uh, that involve payroll as far as your income taxes and your financial statements. That’s not something we do anymore.

Lee Kantor: And so. But you work with, like, my CPA. You’re. You’re.

Charles Read: Absolutely. We can electronically send your CPA the payroll reports in a, in a form that he can take in and put into his system. So it saves you and him time and money. He won’t have to charge you as much because he’s not going to be manually entering payroll reports. He’s going to be getting electronically.

Lee Kantor: So who is the ideal, uh, prospect for you in terms of get payroll? Is it, uh, or is it? I’m sure you mentioned that it’s all over the country, but is it industry agnostic or do you have some niches within certain industries?

Charles Read: We do. We do. You can’t you can’t imagine the kinds of businesses we do. I have restaurants, I have mechanics, I had a prophet who ran a profit professorial center, uh, in, in Lewisville. Uh, we have churches, we have gambling facilities. We have probably the only thing we don’t do is marijuana farmers because the banks don’t like them.

Lee Kantor: But if they’re a legitimate business in America, you have a solution for them.

Charles Read: Absolutely. If they, you know, everybody’s payroll is unique and we do understand that. But we do payroll and we do payroll for all kinds of businesses. So we haven’t. We do we do certified payroll for contractors that are doing federal contracts. If you’re a US payroll, we can take care of you.

Lee Kantor: And and like you said, if it’s a one person shop or, you know, 10,000 employees, you you can handle it.

Charles Read: Yeah. No, I’ll be honest. Normally companies, when they get to somewhere around 3 to 500 people take it in internally. Uh, and, and we understand that, but we have clients in the middle hundred of employees, and we have lots of social entrepreneurs that, uh, have incorporated and therefore they’re an employee and they need to pay W2 compensation and get it all reported. So yeah, we handle one season. We handle 300.

Lee Kantor: Good stuff. Well congratulations on all the success. If somebody wants to learn more what’s the website? What’s the best way to connect with you or somebody on the team.

Charles Read: Well we’re at on the net WW payroll.com. We’re all over the net. Um you can email me at J.R at get payroll.com. And frankly if you got a quick question (972) 353-0000.

Lee Kantor: Well Charles thank you so much for sharing your story. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you leave.

Charles Read: My pleasure. Thank you.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Veterans Business Radio.

 

Tagged With: GetPayroll

Men in Nursing: A Growing Force for Change in Healthcare

July 7, 2025 by angishields

ALR-AAMN-Feature
Association Leadership Radio
Men in Nursing: A Growing Force for Change in Healthcare
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In this episode of Association Leadership Radio, Lee Kantor interviews Jason Mott, President of the American Association for Men in Nursing (AAMN). They discuss AAMN’s mission to support men in nursing, efforts to promote men’s health, and initiatives to encourage more men to pursue nursing careers. Mott highlights the challenges men face in the profession, the importance of community outreach, and the evolving perception of nursing. The episode emphasizes the need for diversity in healthcare and showcases AAMN’s programs, including mentorship, education, and advocacy for a more inclusive nursing workforce.

Jason-MottDr. Jason Mott is the President of the American Association for Men in Nursing as well as a Professor of Nursing at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh.

He has published and presented nationally and internationally on topics such as incivility in nursing, men in nursing, men in the caregiving role and marginalization in nursing.

Follow AAMN on Facebook. AAMN-logo

Episode Highlights

  • Overview of the American Association for Men in Nursing (AAMN) and its mission.
  • Historical context and evolution of the AAMN since its establishment in 1973.
  • Initiatives aimed at improving men’s health and addressing health disparities.
  • Challenges faced by men in the nursing profession and the importance of increasing awareness.
  • Trends in nursing demographics, including the percentage of men in nursing.
  • Biases and perceptions surrounding male nurses in the healthcare field.
  • Services and benefits offered to AAMN members, including education and mentorship.
  • Discussion on the impending nursing shortage and the need for a diverse workforce.
  • The role of telehealth in expanding healthcare access, particularly in rural areas.
  • Community engagement efforts and the importance of local chapters in promoting nursing.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Association Leadership Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of Association Leadership Radio. And this is going to be a good one. Today on the show, we have Jason Mott, who is the president of the American Association for Men in Nursing. Welcome.

Jason Mott: Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn about your association. Tell us a little bit about it. How are you serving folks?

Jason Mott: Yeah. So as an organization, we’ve been around for little over 50 years. Started in 1973. Really kind of started as an organization to support men in nursing, since at the time when we started, there really wasn’t a whole lot of men in nursing. And so throughout our history we’ve grown. So we’re one of our big focuses still is to support men in nursing. But we’ve also grown to expand where we’re trying to do much more in the research arm related to men’s health and Men in nursing. And then our latest initiative within the last year or so has really been to try to focus on improving the health of men throughout the country, where we’re actually creating a men’s health alliance, where we’re going to be able to focus. And actually, there will be the first and only area in healthcare that’s focusing primarily on men’s health. So really trying to increase the health of men throughout the community and looking at a whole lot of different aspects of health care.

Lee Kantor: And when you’re talking about health, are you talking about kind of medical health or mental health? Physical health.

Jason Mott: So pretty much all of it. One of the things that we know through research is that men struggle a lot with increased suicide rates. We also know that men tend to die younger than women. So really looking at their physical health, one of the big things that is an issue with a lot of men is, and I’m sure you probably know this too, is that a lot of times men don’t really seek health care until something’s wrong, like, hey, I’m feeling great, so I don’t need to go to the doctor. And then by the time they actually go in, it’s kind of they’re getting towards later in a disease process where if they had gone earlier, we could have maybe done things to improve their health. So it’s looking at getting men in faster, having them seek health care, feeling comfortable seeking health care, looking at physical health, looking at mental health issues. Because again, a lot of times guys don’t like to talk about things and so they keep it bottled in. So really looking at their mental health and being able to explore a lot of those things.

Lee Kantor: Now, what was kind of the impetus to expand the shift of the organization beyond nursing?

Jason Mott: So I think one of the big things is that so when you look at health care, people like to see people who look like them. So if we’re talking about an African-American client, they like to have nurses or doctors who are who look like them. Same thing with men. A lot of times I’d like to have a male provider. And so I think for our organization, really focusing on men in nursing and having a large percentage of men in nursing as our members, I think we have the perfect opportunity to go dive into that realm. Like we can understand what men are seeking in the health care setting, um, as well as why men don’t seek health care. And so really bringing that unique understanding that we have as an organization. Um, so one of the things I think when you look at nursing in general, and this is no disrespect or anything to our physician counterparts, but nursing tends to have look at more of the holistic picture. So not only just looking at the health care, but looking at social aspects and things like that, that’s really ingrained in nursing education compared to a lot of medical education. So I think our organization, especially having a lot of men being part of it, has that unique opportunity to look at that whole social dynamic, the health seeking behaviors. All of those things, along with having especially when you get into nurse practitioners and things, having that ability to diagnose and treat and things that I think really kind of sets us apart from everywhere else.

Lee Kantor: Now, um, are the numbers trending to see more, uh, men in nursing, or is it kind of what it’s always been?

Jason Mott: It’s slowly progressed. I mean, back in the like 70s, we were probably 4%. Now we’re probably about the last decade or so, we’ve been hanging around the 10 to 15% of nurses being men. Now we’re seeing more. If you’re looking at a numbers perspective, we’re definitely seeing more men. Um, but the percentage is kind of been hanging out the same because you’re also increasing the number of nurses. So percentage wise it’s kind of been in that roughly 5% range. So from the 10 to 15%, but definitely seeing a lot more. So I mean there’s about 3.5 million nurses. So we’re getting roughly 3 to 400,000, um, men who are in the nursing profession now.

Lee Kantor: Now is there um, are the numbers of like doctors going down or is that a growing field or like, where are we at kind of in as a profession because you hear so much about like now the advent of telemedicine. And after the pandemic, so many more people were embracing that type of, uh, communication with medical professionals virtually. Is that opening up more opportunities for men as nurses or physicians, assistants or other pathways other than being an MD?

Jason Mott: Oh, definitely. I think so. One of the things that’s interesting, if you look at medicine is that they are roughly 5050, in terms of male versus female, where nursing, we’re still trying to get up to that equality or that equity. So we’re can be close to 5050. Now, one of the things I think with nursing that’s different with medicine and why I think it’s been a struggle, is that nursing for a long time was basically the time of Florence Nightingale back in the 1850s. So actually I’m going to kind of take a step back. So it’s interesting. So when we talk about nursing profession, most people in nursing think that nursing started in the 1850s with Florence Nightingale. Um, when we have National Nurses Week and Nurses Month, that’s all focused around her birthday. But in fact, most nursing before that point was done by men. So either in clergy roles or, as part of their military, they would serve as nurses. And so when Nightingale came around, she basically felt that men and minorities didn’t belong in nursing. And so made it where it was a profession that’s heavily dominated by white females. And so because of that, nursing since that time has not really been seen by a lot of people as a profession for men.

Jason Mott: So I can tell you personally, like when I was in middle school, in high school I would I was doing career traces. I always came out as being something related to the health care professions. But I was always directed towards either physical therapy, a physician assistant, or being an MD. Nursing was never brought up, which seems to be still occurring. Um. So where? High school guidance counselors aren’t really seeing nursing as a profession for men. And so I think because of that, most men don’t really go into nursing right out of high school. In fact, most nursing programs or most men who are in nursing actually come in as second degree nurses where they got a degree somewhere else, did it for a while, didn’t really like it, and said, you know, I’ve always wanted to be a nurse, so now I’m coming back to being nursing. So I think we see that. But, well, I’m one of the big things we’re going to have to do, which we’ve been working on, is trying to increase awareness about nursing as a great profession for men to the public, as well as high school and middle school guidance counselors.

Lee Kantor: Now, in practice, does the patient is there a bias against men, like when they’re needing care. Do they have a problem with men as nurses, or is this kind of just a mindset shift?

Jason Mott: I think more a mind shift, such shift, um, for the most part. Well, actually, a lot of the male patients prefer to have a male nurse. Um, sometimes with especially elderly female patients, it gets a little bit tricky. Um, depending on what you have to do, if you have to do more like intimate cares, like inserting catheters or things like that. Sometimes they’re a little bit more uncomfortable having a man. Um, there’s still within the public, unfortunately, a bias that a lot of men go into nursing because of, like seeking sexual gratification, which is definitely not the case. But What? Sometimes your elderly patients still have that kind of mindset, so you can get a little bit of bias there. I guess the other big type of bias is that a lot of times, and I can’t tell you how many times personally, like walk into a room and the patient thinks that you’re the physician and they’re like, oh, you’re my doctor today. Well, no, I’m your nurse. So it’s just getting that mindset shift from the public that, hey, men are actually in nursing. And actually, I had so many patients say, like, you know, you’re the best nurse I ever had. And I would love to have another guy as a nurse. So I think once we get more men and they’re able to really see what men bring to the field, I think that’s going to really help with that whole mindset that the public has now.

Lee Kantor: Is it awkward in the sense in the example you just brought, like, say, there’s a male nurse and a female nurse in a room and the patient looks to the male, as, are you my doctor? Are they? Does that how does that make the woman nurse feel like? Do they feel like they’re, you know, kind of. It’s an uphill battle for them when it comes to kind of credibility and, you know, listening to their opinions and thoughts.

Jason Mott: I think sometimes that can definitely play a role. I think one of the things that can be a little bit harder for female nurses, too, is just with interacting with physicians. So I know, like I had a much different relationship with a lot of the physicians I worked with than my female colleagues. So, I mean, it can be bad, like you have doctors who will, like, yell at nurses and things like that where They were more apt to do that to a female colleague rather than myself or the male nurses. Um, so and I think I also seem to gain their trust and respect a lot quicker. Even though I was just as competent as my female colleagues. So that gets a little bit tricky, where I think some of the females can be feeling like along the lines of, um, like, how come I have to work harder or things like that sometimes just to gain the respect or trust.

Lee Kantor: So now, in your work with the association, what are some of the services and benefits that the nurses get when they’re part of this group?

Jason Mott: Yeah. So we do a lot. So most nurses need continuing education credits each year kind of varies by state. So we do a lot of continuing education um for nurses offering that. We also have a program called the Future Campaign. And so with that, what we do is our members go out to the high schools and middle schools and talk about nursing as a profession. And so trying to bolster it up, we also offer scholarships for students every year. And now we’re in the process this year of rolling out a leadership, um, fellowship, where participants will be able to go through a year long leadership program so that they can develop their leadership skills and things like that. We’re also going to be starting a mentorship program, so partnering newer nurses with more experienced nurses. So that way they can grow and learn. So like these are some of the situations I’m running into. How do we handle that and things like that, to really hoping to grow and make new nurses feel more comfortable within the profession.

Lee Kantor: Now, how does the aging population play into this? Is there kind of shortage of nurses and like home health care professionals or those not nurses? Like, I would think that there was going to be just a great, great demand of people in health care at this level in order to help just the just vast number of people that are going to need their services.

Jason Mott: Oh, definitely. Yeah. So we talk about, um, the nursing shortage where they’re predicting it’s going to be several hundred thousand nurses. I think it’s like 250 to 300,000 nurses. They’ll be needed within the next ten years. And so I think so if we continue doing what we’re doing, we’re going to run into issues within the health care system. So I think that’s why it’s so important to look for more diverse people. So looking at the males and things who maybe are out in the working in a factory job or things like that, where one of the things I think that’s kind of maybe hurting us a little bit now is because the industry is paying so well after for people right out of high school, they go in and feel like, okay, I can make a lot of money now. And without thinking down the long run, where maybe in when I’m 55 years old, am I going to be wanting to do this? And then we also have issues with technology and AI and robotics and things taking over where it’s replacing a lot of people, whereas nursing, you’re always going to need to have nurses at the bedside taking care of patients.

Jason Mott: So a lot of times the people who especially guys who get into nursing as second degree, have come from factories and things where they’re feeling like there’s not a lot of job security. So they come into nursing knowing it’s a well-paying job and knowing that they’re going to have job security to take care of their families for years and years and years. Plus, I think the other thing with nursing that is a really good option is that you can change. So what I mean by that, so let’s say medicine, you go and train as an orthopedic surgeon, you can only do orthopedic surgeon unless you go back and get extra training and things like that. Whereas nursing I could start off on a medical unit, then I want to go work in surgery and I can do that and just go through an additional six month orientation period. Or I could go work in the ICU or the emergency room. Or I could go back to school and be a nurse practitioner or nurse educator. And so there is a whole variety of things you can do with your degree.

Lee Kantor: And I would imagine there’s opportunity in kind of areas around the country that are more rural that have hospitals in kind of these rural places that that might be difficult for them to staff.

Jason Mott: Oh, exactly. Yeah. Um, I know even with nursing in general, especially if you’re looking at like nurse practitioners and things, telehealth is really taking off, especially in the rural settings where again, you might your closest hospital might be half an hour away, or you have a critical access hospital that can just kind of treat people but then have to send them off. So rural health and taking care of patients in a rural setting is definitely a huge area where nursing can make an impact and things like that.

Lee Kantor: So while the association, obviously it’s historically has been focused on on men and nursing and now your expansion into men in general, how does kind of a membership for just a male in general kind of work, or is it they have to be a nurse in order to participate?

Jason Mott: Nope. So we have actually of our members, one of the interesting things is about 40% of our um, membership is female. So they are those are women who are interested in supporting their male colleagues as well as who are interested in men’s health. And so we’ve got membership for students. We’ve actually got membership rates for um, high school students, uh, Then with nursing we have corporate membership. So one of the things we do is like a community based partnership. So maybe a health care setting and a maybe you have two hospitals in a town and a nursing college. They can all come together and do a joint membership and have a community based chapter. And so we really have opportunities at a whole lot of different levels. We are actually exploring, expanding. So like could we have like EMTs or paramedics as members or physician assistants or even physicians. So really kind of looking at a whole lot of different areas with that.

Lee Kantor: And then, um, so it’s not just a national organization, it has chapters around the country.

Jason Mott: Yep. So we we actually have chapters. Yeah, throughout the country. We also have a chapter in the Philippines and 1 or 2 chapters in Canada. So we actually have a couple international chapters as well.

Lee Kantor: So what happens at the chapter level?

Jason Mott: So the chapter level is kind of where most of the work gets done. So that’s where people are going out into their communities doing education. Um, we have a lot of career fairs and health fairs. So, you know, we have like students going into like boys and girls clubs and teaching about nursing. We have them going to senior centers and offering like blood pressure screenings and things like that. So like the national level, we provide a lot of the resources for chapters and then the chapters who know their communities best will go out into their communities and do things that are really impacting the needs and the health of their are individual communities.

Lee Kantor: And is that something that’s like they partner? I would imagine, with kind of local universities that have nursing degrees, things like that. Is that like the the makeup of a chapter or, or the kind of universities and then the, um, people going through those, um, programs.

Jason Mott: Exactly. So, yeah, so a lot of our chapters are university based. We also have a lot of chapters based out of health care systems. And so like for instance, where I work, um, we have a university chapter. And so any student who is within the university can join our chapter as a student organization. And so then we’ll do things around our community. So like for instance, we are hosting an educational table at the Alzheimer’s Association event, the Walk to End Alzheimer’s in our community and providing Education, um, for like caregivers of patients with Alzheimer’s. And so, yeah, again, a lot of them are university based. And then the students who are part of that university then take part in the chapter.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you find as just, um, having been involved in this organization for a while, is there do you find just people have more empathy nowadays and want to get involved in this type of caregiving profession, or is there is that trending in the right direction? I would hope I hope it is.

Jason Mott: I do, I really think so. I think that people are again viewing nursing as a great career option. Um, I think some of the stigma related to nursing or being a man in nursing is coming down so that people are seeing it more as a good career choice. And I mean, I do think like even though it was bad, I think for a while Covid really helped. You know, with seeing nursing and all the things that nurses did, because I don’t think a lot of times the general population really understands all that nursing does. And so getting more exposure is a great thing because again, most of I think most people’s exposure to nurses, if they haven’t had a themselves or a loved one who’s been sick, is watching TV shows, and those medical shows are not very accurate for what nurses actually do. And so I think having a good exposure really can change people’s mindset.

Lee Kantor: So what do you need more of? How can we help you?

Jason Mott: I think for us we just need more exposure, which I’m super excited to be talking to everybody here. And you know, just being able to grow and get that exposure out there and really talk about nursing and especially for the men to know, like, okay, this is a really a great field. And, you know, like you can do so much with it and you really can have a really great career from it.

Lee Kantor: And a rewarding career as well.

Jason Mott: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Because I think I hear a lot of times, you know, like with guys or people in general, it’s like, I want to do something that makes a difference or can help people. And this you’re doing that. You’re making a difference in people’s lives every single day that you’re at work.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And people are hungry for that type of, um, kind of meaning in their life. And this is a way to really do that.

Jason Mott: Exactly.

Lee Kantor: So, Jason, if somebody wants to learn more and connect with you or somebody on your team, is there a website for the association?

Jason Mott: Yes. So it is eight men and we have all kinds of resources on there. We have a bunch of information and then definitely ways to get hold of us.

Lee Kantor: And then they can kind of drill down and find a chapter near them.

Jason Mott: Yes. There is a chapter directory, um, that’s listed out by every state. And so yeah, definitely, I would suggest go to the website and reach out to us because we love to talk to people and respond to people really quickly.

Lee Kantor: Well, Jason, thank you so much for sharing your story, doing important work and we appreciate you.

Jason Mott: Well, thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Association Leadership Radio.

 

Tagged With: AAMN, American Association for Men in Nursing

No Wi-Fi, No Warning, No Excuses: How WBEs Survive Digital Disasters

July 7, 2025 by angishields

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Women in Motion
No Wi-Fi, No Warning, No Excuses: How WBEs Survive Digital Disasters
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In this episode, Lee Kantor and Renita Manley explore digital survival strategies for businesses facing cyber attacks and internet outages. Cybersecurity experts Paige Goss and Alaine Fulton discuss the unique vulnerabilities of small to mid-sized businesses, the evolving threat landscape, and the importance of proactive measures like employee training, regular security assessments, and robust backup solutions. Real-world examples highlight the costly consequences of neglecting cybersecurity. The episode emphasizes that no business is too small to be targeted and underscores the need for a strong culture of cybersecurity awareness and preparedness.

Paige-GossPaige Goss is a fixer of fixers, orchestrating a collection of highly adept tech and engineering all-stars.

She founded Point Solutions Group to address the dire need for diversity in information technology, engineering, and professional services in government and commercial organizations. And the looks she gets when she walks into some meetings exemplifies that.

She not only talks the talk, but her extensive background in the information security, healthcare IT, and Department of Defense industries gives her the cred to strut the strut. As well as to pirouette between highly classified government projects and the demands of an ever-changing commercial landscape.

Connect with Paige on LinkedIn.

Alaine-FultonAlaine Fulton founded Safe Haven Solutions in 2005 that continues to bring her clients the best of breed technology solutions to Provide Integrity in Cloud/Network/Security.

Safe Haven Solutions is an IT consulting company specializing in cloud computing, cybersecurity, and network solutions for mid-market and enterprise clients.

Our core focus is delivering effective business solutions to our clients that reduce costs, streamline operations, and increase profitability.

Connect with Alaine on LinkedIn.

Episode Highlights

  • Digital survival strategies for businesses facing cyber attacks and internet outages.
  • Vulnerabilities of small to mid-sized businesses in the digital landscape.
  • Misconceptions about the risk of cyber threats for smaller organizations.
  • The evolving nature of cyber threats and the organized nature of cybercrime.
  • Importance of identifying and protecting critical data and applications.
  • Proactive measures for enhancing cybersecurity, including employee training and regular assessments.
  • The significance of incident response planning and preparation for cyber incidents.
  • The role of human error in cyber incidents and the need for a culture of cybersecurity awareness.
  • Differences between cyber attacks and internet outages, including response strategies.
  • Real-world examples illustrating the consequences of inadequate cybersecurity measures.

Music Provided by M PATH MUSIC

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios, it’s time for Women in Motion. Brought to you by WBEC-West. Join forces. Succeed together. Now, here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here with Renita Manley, another episode of Women in Motion and this is a very important one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, WBEC-West. Without them, we couldn’t be sharing these important stories.

Lee Kantor: Today’s episode is titled No Wi-Fi, No warning, No Excuses: How WBEs Survive Digital Disasters. This is an important topic and we have two great guests coming on board to discuss it. We have Paige Goss with Point Solutions Security and Alaine Fulton with Safe Haven Solutions. Renita, great job putting this together. This is such an important topic of interest for our WBEs.

Renita Manley: Thanks, Lee. It really is. I’ve been actually thinking about it so much lately, but we’re going to dig into it. So in today’s episode, it’s all about digital survival, what to do before, during, and after a cyber attack or internet outage. So, I guess I’m going to break down how to prepare ahead of time, how to respond in the moment without panicking, and how to bounce back fast. Lee?

Lee Kantor: All right. So, before we get too far into things, Paige and Alaine, do you mind sharing a little bit about your background? Why don’t we start with Paige, talk about Point Solutions Security a little bit and your work.

Paige Goss: Yeah, absolutely. And, Lee, Renita, thank you so much for having us on today. Excited for the conversation. I think I agree it’s an important one. So, Point Solutions Security, we are a cybersecurity professional services firm headquartered out of Denver, Colorado. I started the firm really to support the SMB, mid-market on offensive cyber efforts, so those are things like ethical hacking, red team, pen testing. We’ve got a governance risk and compliance division that supports companies that are looking to get audit ready. A lot of times now, companies are forcing down security requirements to smaller businesses, something I’m sure we’ll talk about today.

Paige Goss: And then, recently, we launched Cyber as a Service, which is a VC, so an opportunity for companies that want to basically outsource all of your sort of security strategy. And it’s been a lot of fun, so thanks again for having me.

Lee Kantor: And, Alaine?

Alaine Fulton: Yes. I’m Alaine Fulton, Founder and CEO of Safe Haven Solutions. We just hit a 20 year mark, which is amazing. We are an IT consultancy and managed service provider. We focus predominantly on cloud services, network architecture, and cyber security, more virtual CISO. So, our focus is really kind of securing from a network side your architecture, making recommendations of how to secure your applications in the cloud, and then also working with companies to really help define policies and procedures around what happens during an attack, what you do, what you do post, and how to really get ahead of that. So, happy to be here and looking forward to the discussion.

Lee Kantor: All right. So, let’s, I guess, start at at the top. In the case of the WBEs out there, anybody that has a business, how vulnerable are most organizations when it comes to having their entire system going down? I would imagine most businesses can’t survive very long if that happened. But is that kind of where you begin when you’re kind of assessing the dangers if you’re a business owner in today’s world? Do you want to start that, Paige?

Paige Goss: Yeah, I’m happy to. From our perspective, actually, we sort of look at things a little bit different, not a total outage. That’s rather rare today, unless there’s something extreme that happens. You know, internet outages happen. Lots of companies now have backup systems or redundant circuits that they’ve deployed that help with that type of company wide outage.

Paige Goss: But I would say from our perspective, we really look first at critical data within your environment. And so, what makes you unique as a company? What is critical to your organization sustaining long term success? And really, you know, your clients, a lot of them are pushing these requirements down because the data that you hold in your environment is connected to them. And so, for us, it’s really a matter of what could, one, be a reputational damage; two, could prevent you from making money; and three, I think long term prevent you from doing what you want to do for your client base.

Paige Goss: So, not a total outage on our side, Lee, is not how we start. We most of the time want companies to understand that everybody’s vulnerable. We say often it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when, and how can you recover and how can you protect your most sensitive data.

Alaine Fulton: And I would jump in. I mean, I think from the WBE community, a lot of people think I’m too small, it’s never going to happen to me. And I think that’s kind of the number one myth. Bad actors, they don’t discriminate. If anything, I think women owners are, you know, having multiple roles, managing tighter budgets and resources, and so, it’s really, really important to kind of make sure that you understand what your critical applications are. What does downtime mean to you? How much damage could that do? How long can you be down? Just really kind of understand from a business perspective, you know, what are those critical applications. So, I think any company of any size should absolutely have awareness around it.

Lee Kantor: Now, can you talk a little bit about maybe the myth of these bad actors? One time, maybe the bad actor was in your head, you would picture some teenager in their basement, you know, drinking Red Bull and eating Cheetos. But now it’s way more organized, right? Aren’t there state actors now? This is like a big business where professionals are going into conference rooms with whiteboards and really strategizing to finding vulnerabilities.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah. I mean, from our perspective, I think the scariest thing out there is the AI component. I mean, if you think about your social media algorithms, like TikTok, if you say one thing, all of a sudden it pops up on your feed. They’re using those types of tools to kind of understand and target specifically certain demographics, and who’s going to click on what. And so, these emails are starting to look more real. They’re starting to be more personalized. And all of that can be bots and AI generated. So, the quantity and the smartness around these attacks is way more and it’s just going to continue to grow versus the guy in the basement going after one or two companies. I mean, it is mass, mass targeting, so it’s scary out there.

Paige Goss: Yeah, Lee, I agree. But there are still companies that have, you know, floors and floors of humans external to the United States that are pounding away.

Paige Goss: And I was going to reiterate that AI is changing everything, both from a defensive standpoint and an offensive standpoint. And I think too often companies – I think we mentioned it earlier – think that they’re too small. When reality, your companies might be significantly – your customers – excuse me – might be significantly larger than you. And so, these actors, these bad actors lead to your question, they’re using small businesses to get to bigger companies. So, you’re a risk not only for yourself, but also for your larger customers.

Paige Goss: And we have a bit of work in the Department of Defense, and I think that’s what we’re seeing there, as well as in all other areas, is that these smaller companies that think that their software, their app, their network, their machine shop, whatever it might be, was protected because they were kind of walled off from what the actual customer did. That’s just not true anymore. They’re using small business to get to big business. And I agree, AI makes that a whole lot easier to do and a whole lot harder to protect.

Renita Manley: Paige, do you have maybe like a quick story that you can share about a small business being attacked and how you all were able to help them?

Paige Goss: Yeah, we’ve had several situations. One, I’ll give you just an interesting example. We were working actively or trying to work actively with this company to kind of get them ready for a potential M&A transaction, and so we were trying to convince them to let us do an assessment on where are they, where are they weak, what external network vulnerabilities do they have, et cetera. And they kept pushing it off, saying nobody wants to work with us, we’re a small manufacturing shop and we manufacture – in this case, I’m not going to tell you what they actually manufacture, but let’s say they manufacture pins.

Paige Goss: And it was really interesting, they pushed me off for a-year-and-a half. And then, what ultimately happened is they called me in a sheer panic that they had a $5 million ransom on their head, and it was about to impact everything from their business. They ultimately did business both commercially and with the Department of Defense. It was going to impact their transaction potential. They had all of their sort of critical data and all of their documentation was in a black box.

Paige Goss: And so, I think the interesting part to that is, again, you’re not ever too small, what you do is not insignificant. And that manufacturing pins, in this case, you wouldn’t think that that would be a huge target. But they were going up scale, they were going Defense and they were certainly going to the M&A target.

Paige Goss: So, what we ended up doing, one, we’re not a forensics company, so we sort of wrote on the side with the forensics company trying to help them really, one, recover the data, and then, two, put way better business practices. And I know Alaine mentioned earlier policies, procedures, really just kind of back to the basics on how do you baseline protect making updates to your firewall, running patches. I mean, these are basic things that a lot of companies, I think, they get busy being busy and they sort of go over the top of it. And it’s a critical piece because that’s most of the time how things ultimately get escalated.

Paige Goss: So, yeah, we rebuilt their entire environment for them, putting in controls, putting in a bunch of the cyber practices that we deploy for clients. And about six months ago, they finally completed the transaction. So, it ended up being a success, but it was a lot of work and a whole lot of money. I think they ended up spending 6X on the repair and rebuild versus what they would have spent with us from the very beginning. So, it was a very expensive lesson for you’re not too small and you’re not too insignificant from what you do to, I guess, be vulnerable and be taken advantage of.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned a couple of them, but are there any kind of low hanging fruit, proactive steps that every business can take to kind of prevent some of these things from happening?

Alaine Fulton: Yeah. I mean, from our standpoint, as she said – Paige said, for us, we think of it in three layers. The first layer is people. So, you want to train your people to recognize any type of phishing emails, you know, what to click, what not to click. We have tools where we can push those out to an organization and almost kind of test them, and that way, they can see exactly what they’re looking for.

Paige Goss: The second layer is going to be processes. You know, if you put together just a very simple checklist, is it my CRM? Is it our POS? Is it our email? What are those systems in place that are really going to be affected that we need to prioritize?

Alaine Fulton: And then third is technology. So, you can install an antivirus, but the antivirus is only going to really protect off those big viruses that are well-known. They’re not kind of like that shield, if you will. So, putting strong password policies in for all of your employees, putting in MFA, multi-factor authentication. That’s a free thing. That’s very easy. It can catch a lot of viruses and threat actors. So, yeah, there’s a couple basic tools that we recommend that are just basic security hygiene, I think, is a good step.

Paige Goss: Yeah. Alaine, I agree. I would also say that from a training perspective, train specific to the job because now a lot of these threat actors are getting – Alaine mentioned earlier – AI. I mean, salespeople are a great target. We want revenue. We want to click on everything. I’m a salesperson by background, so the second I see somebody reaching out for a quote, I’m excited. I would say help desk is a super vulnerable area now because most of the time it’s people that are earlier on in their career, they’ve not seen as many things. Same thing I would say with sort of frontline staff if you’re in a manufacturing or food service type.

Paige Goss: So, I think now it’s more important not to just train, but to train job specific on what’s coming up. ACH, that’s been sort of a topic that’s been flowing around for a while now. And I think a lot of this needs to be job specific versus just sort of an overall check the box we do cyber training. It’s really not helpful just as an overall. It becomes a lot more important job specific.

Renita Manley: So, if I’m a WBE listening to this today, what would you tell me – okay. I’m done listening to the podcast. What’s the very first thing that I need to go do right now to make sure, at the very minimum, my website is okay?

Alaine Fulton: So, for your website, I mean, you need to make sure that it has an SSL. So, if you go to any website, you’ll see it kind of looks like a lock box in the corner. That means that it is secure – I think it’s like a padlock. It means that it’s a secure site, so you’re making sure that your patching, your passwords are secure, you know, all of your plugins, your CMS platforms are all kind of up to date. But I would think the number one thing is just to make sure that it’s SSL secure.

Paige Goss: Yeah. I would say, too, if we’re not talking specific website, take away administrative access from as many people as you possibly can. Access control is a really interesting topic in the cyber world right now. I agree on making sure your website is secure and also your run patches. So, if it’s Microsoft upgrades or if you’re on a Mac, if it’s any upgrades or patches that can be run on any of your systems or inside of email, or anything like that, like keep that up to date. That’s the baseline for protection. And without that, it becomes really easy for people to get in.

Lee Kantor: Now, what should I do? Like you mentioned earlier, that client of yours had that ransomware attack, what do I do? What’s my first move if that comes across my screen?

Paige Goss: Do you want me to answer that, Alaine? So, one, I would always argue don’t pay it first. There’s a lot of other options outside of paying. I think depending on the company, depending on the situation, you’re going to kind of have a three-pronged response. One, if you’re sort of a more formal, sort of better cyber hygiene company, you’re likely to have an incident response plan. If you have an incident response plan, you want to launch that immediately. And most people within the org should.

Paige Goss: That’s one of the funny lessons learned, is like make sure anybody listed in your IR plan, knows they’re listed in your IR plan. Too often we go run exercises, and people are like I had no idea I was responsible for this. So, have an IR plan, so first would be to execute that.

Paige Goss: Second, I would shut down any external access. So, make sure that anything from the external facing internet is shut off until you can kind of get a handle on where things have gone awry. And then, I would say the next would be to start a conversation with your insurance broker if you have a cyber insurance policy.

Paige Goss: Now, you could throw companies like Alaine’s and I in there. Yeah, you’re probably going to need us relatively quickly. But I think those three steps of sort of launching your IR plan effectively, shutting any external access off immediately, and then reaching out to your cyber broker.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah, I agree. Got to contain it right away. And also just make sure you’re preserving any type of evidence. You know, you don’t want to lose any type of data, especially if you have a cyber insurance policy, what have you. You want to make sure that you’re not deleting any backlogs or anything like that. But, yeah, contain it. Turn everything off. Get rid of the Wi-Fi. Close down access to any remote. Just shut the house down, basically.

Renita Manley: You mentioned IR plan, for anybody who heard that, what exactly is an IR plan?

Paige Goss: Incident response.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah. Incident response, right. So, it’s kind of what happens during a breach. Who do I call? Who do I communicate with? What are the steps that we need to to take? Who do we need to contact in what fashion? So, it can be a very simple checklist depending on the size of your organization, or it can get very, very in depth in regards to, okay, these are the systems, who’s responsible? Who’s responsible for communicating to our customers that something happened? So, it can get very detailed depending on the complexity of your environment or it could be just as simple as a checklist. So, yeah, incident response.

Paige Goss: The first one – sorry.

Renita Manley: You want to make sure you have a hard copy of that.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah.

Paige Goss: Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to say, too, the shut your house down is critical. So, shut your house down and kick your kids out, so that you can really look and see was it inside or was it outside. You got to sort of shut it all down and have as few people involved as possible from my experience.

Lee Kantor: Now, on these types of incidents or attacks, are they happening kind of in that AI automated way that people are just, you know, kind of poking around and they find a vulnerability and then they get access? Or is it kind of a human error thing that somebody on the team clicked on something inadvertently in order to let this thing in? Because to me, the training on that second one, you really have to be relentless with the humans in your organization, not just shore up the computers in your organization.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah. I mean, I think people is probably 99 percent of how these actually happen. If you’re clicking on a malicious email, that opens the door to get into your organization. But, for example, the MGM in Vegas, that was caused because somebody didn’t patch one of their infrastructures correctly, and so that was a hole that somebody was able to get into.

Alaine Fulton: So, to Paige’s point, you know, making sure that you’re constantly updating your software, your hardware, your patching, all of that, everything is encrypted. So, again, that was kind of human error based.

Alaine Fulton: And there’s a lot of tools out there, and sometimes companies don’t really know how to use the tools or they’re duplicate. So, I mean, there’s a lot of noise in this space. So, again, trying to really simplify and keep it as basic as possible, I think, is key in educating your people.

Lee Kantor: Now, how often should you kind of be testing your team to ensure that they’re not going to inadvertently click on something? Is that something that you recommend happening once a year, every three months? Like, is there a rhythm that you recommend? Because, to me, that’s the weakest link here. You guys want to fight for this?

Paige Goss: Yeah. No. So, every company is different. I think once a year is way too infrequent. Things are just changing in technology so quickly. So, we recommend, we do it monthly with our clients in some form or fashion, so if it’s the accounting department, or if it’s an all hands, or if it’s sales, et cetera. So, we try at least one touchpoint at least a month or recommend that, some being automated, some being more kind of in your face. So, once a month on our side.

Paige Goss: And then, sort of testing it is an interesting one, Lee. And I would say you want to test your humans, but you also want to test your systems. And so, Alaine and I both, I think, would agree that having at least an annual penetration assessment, at least an annual sort of web and mobile, or whatever your business is creating, I think having at least annually, if not twice a year. It’s critical because then you get to really see sort of your current state and you can make updates, you can see where you haven’t patched, you get access to sort of where your infrastructure might be weakest, and then you can call Alaine to have them help you get it all squared away.

Paige Goss: But I think doing the offensive work or having a third party do the offensive work to really give you a baseline is a critical piece to this testing, both humans and systems.

Renita Manley: So, I hear what you said about penetration session and I kind of gathered what that means, but can you explain what that might mean for a small business owner?

Paige Goss: Yeah. So, there’s several ways to do it. A lot of companies sell penetration testing, which really is more what we call vulnerability scanning. So, they’ll take your external facing assets or your external IPs, and they’ll run them through a system to see if there’s any known vulnerabilities out there, so missing patches, attacks on a specific piece of hardware, et cetera.

Paige Goss: What we do is we take that information. We also go to the dark web. We also gather what we call OSINT, which is intelligence data around just the entirety of your system and your infrastructure, your web, et cetera. And then, we actually do hands on keys and we try to attack. So, we’re attacking from the outside, from the web, trying to see how far we can get.

Paige Goss: And the benefit, in our opinion, to doing it manually is it’s a unique environment or a unique set of credentials for all companies. And so, we’re piecing things together and we’re really taking it from a state actor perspective. So, you just get a lot more information and you get a little bit more on how to protect yourself if you do that type of penetration testing. Now, you should absolutely do the vulnerability scanning. That’s a quick and easy win. But doing a deeper dive, I think, once a year at least is really important.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you do drills or do you recommend doing drills as if you were attacked so that people can kind of take the steps that they would take if they were attacked? Like, you do a fire drill. You know, a lot of buildings do fire drills every year. Should you be doing one of these kind of incident response drills?

Alaine Fulton: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that’s critical, having everybody understand, kind of go through the process. And that way it takes out kind of the panic when things happen. They know the plan. They know how to execute it. And we have customers call us and we kind of know the playbook, so we understand that.

Renita Manley: And we’ve also done physical downtime. So, what happens if this server is unplugged? Where are the backups? And actually get those backups up and running. So, really physically testing your environment as well is critical because things – like Paige said – are constantly changing. So, absolutely, you want to run through that plan at least once a year.

Alaine Fulton: And I would even say on the physical side, testing your connections, testing your network and all of that even probably twice a year. But, yeah, that way everybody knows what they should be doing, it’s well practiced, and I think that’s super important.

Lee Kantor: And you want to be doing it when there’s no stakes now. Like everybody’s calm, this isn’t a crisis, so that when the crisis comes in, you already have some repetitions. You have some, you know, experience of having done it. You don’t want the first time to do it when it matters.

Alaine Fulton: Yes, absolutely. And I think having cloud backup or having backups kind of gives people peace of mind as well. You can take the state that you’re in today and you can have backups on a per minute basis, on a 24-hour, on a weekly basis, just really kind of depends on what that downtime looks to you. But then, you can just go ahead and circle back to that old data, so you’ve preserved that. So, having those type of backups.

Alaine Fulton: We don’t recommend on site. There’s best practices around that. But that’s also kind of being proactive. If something happens, you don’t have to pay the ransom. You have all of your data. It’s all solid. And that’s another definitely highly recommended.

Paige Goss: I’m so glad you mentioned this, because this is something we see over and over and over where companies don’t have backups on email, on files, on basic things that help operate your business successfully. And so, as a WBE, as a small business, it’s the first thing I would say to do outside of checking your updates and kind of everything we talked about, is, figure out a backup solution, because then it’s business continuity, it’s disaster recovery, it’s incident response, lack of follow up that you have to do.

Paige Goss: I mean, there’s just so many advantages if you have a good backup solution. And I completely agree, it’s a relatively inexpensive technology to deploy most of the time, which can be just a massive risk aversion technology. But also just sort of this relief of like, okay, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when, and I’m good.

Renita Manley: You mentioned recovery, so I was wondering, what’s the first step to even figuring that out? Like, as a small business owner, I just heard you talk about disaster recovery, so now I’m like, “Oh, my gosh. I don’t even have a disaster recovery plan.” What should be my first step to make that happen? Let me see. Alaine, you go.

Alaine Fulton: I think, first of all, looking at your network infrastructure. What are your connections? Where are your remote workers? On the physical side, do they have firewalls on their remote laptops? Do they have antivirus? So, really kind of looking at the network as a whole, but then also looking at, again, those critical applications.

Alaine Fulton: Are a lot of your businesses based on a POS? Do you store credit card information? Do you store any type of personal identifiable information? There’s going to be compliance rules around that. If you don’t store that, do you store that with Microsoft or Google? Because even though they’re Microsoft or Google, they’re protected on theirs. That doesn’t mean that you are protected per se. So, what is that information that needs to be protected?

Alaine Fulton: I know companies use Dropbox and all that. Those are great, but you’re still kind of reliant on – I mean, they’re good for SMB. But I would, again, just kind of look at your critical applications, what data. What do you need to function? You know, if you cut your leg off, what would you need? You need a crutch, right? So, really kind of understanding what drives your business and starting to kind of hone down on that. And that will help with your disaster recovery plan is kind of going down the line as priorities in regards to how you can kind of continue your business.

Lee Kantor: So, how do you manage kind of from a human standpoint, the person who clicked on the thing, they’re the ones who set this whole thing in motion. Is there some best practices you’ve learned on how to manage kind of how they’re feeling and their responsible, and how everybody as an organization, the culture of it, how it handles that type of kind of inadvertent mistake that’s really messed things up?

Paige Goss: Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve all clicked on something, right? I own and run a cybersecurity firm and I’ve clicked on things. So, I think it’s just human nature. We’re all moving fast. We get hundreds of emails. So, I think having a culture of we all support each other and this is a enterprise or company wide initiative, not just an IT issue or initiative, not just a risk management issue.

Paige Goss: I would probably argue now it’s becoming a huge sales initiative of where, you know, sales and cybersecurity are becoming revenue adjacent. Where without some of these cyber policies and practices and some of the standards that companies need to now adhere to, you’re not even getting to go to that from a sales perspective.

Paige Goss: And so, I think, Lee, having a culture of this is just who we are, we’re a cyber aware firm and things are going to happen, but our job is to not let it impact us from your reputation standpoint, not let it impact us from a financial standpoint. And I think the more you get people bought into that, the better it is because somebody already clicked on something. It’s just is a matter of if it went anywhere or not, and some did and some didn’t. And so, I think just having an open conversation about the importance of this tied to the long term success of the company is important.

Alaine Fulton: Yeah. The mistakes are going to happen, right? I mean, we’re all human. So, I think when you have a mistake, it’s a learning exercise for everybody. I mean, the biggest thing is don’t hide it. Tell somebody. The quicker you know about it, the quicker we can respond. And that does come down to culture, so I agree, Paige.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned that no company is too small to kind of be vulnerable. Is there a size of an organization or an amount of revenue that they have to be at in order to put in place some of these protections? Because you’re mentioning a lot of things. You mentioned secure backups. You mentioned cyber insurance. You mentioned partners like both of your firms. Like all this sounds very expensive, so what size do they implement some of these more expensive solutions? And then, is there solutions for people who aren’t at that size yet? Paige, do you want to take a swing at this?

Paige Goss: Sure. Yeah. So, I mean, again, every business is different because you can be a ten person company but have extremely critical data. You can have credit card data. You could have CUI, which is for the Department of Defense, et cetera. So, I think everybody’s business, Lee, is a little bit different.

Paige Goss: But I would say just as a baseline, it doesn’t have to be over architected. It doesn’t have to be overengineered. You can do a lot of what we’re talking about with better Microsoft licensing, which doesn’t break the bank. We’re not a Google shop, but there’s a lot of things that are built into Google now that you can deploy.

Paige Goss: And I would say, you know, just have a conversation with other companies in your industry and that are similar size and ask what they’re doing. There’s a lot of best practices out there for businesses of all levels. But start with, again, the basics. Alaine mentioned, there’s some MFA that’s free. There’s some Microsoft licensing that you can get upgrades to. And you can deploy some of these sort of baseline cyber tool sets for relatively inexpensive – excuse me – that are relatively inexpensive.

Paige Goss: And then, I think as you grow, it’s, again, what’s the value for you. So, if it’s important, then the dollars aren’t as hard. If this is something that will either put you out of business or will be a critical piece that you can’t continue to operate like you were. So, I think most of our clients, yes, are a little bit larger, but not large. Like we have lots of companies that are in the 10 percent plus range that we do basic cyber hygiene for. And so, it doesn’t have to be a big company, I think, to have an impact.

Renita Manley: Alaine, I want to ask you this question, what’s like the basic difference? I mean, as we’re all talking, I’m just thinking like what’s the basic difference between a cyber attack and internet outage? And as a small business, do I need to prepare for each of those threats differently or about the same? And I’m talking about a prolonged internet outage, maybe like two days or something.

Alaine Fulton: Right. So, for us, I think the key difference is intent versus impact. So, an internet outage is like a storm, right? You can kind of wait it out. It’s not that critical. You can use like a mobile hotspot or you can use a backup internet connection. There’s ways kind of around that.

Alaine Fulton: With cybersecurity attack, it’s kind of like a break in, somebody’s breaking into your house. So, you have to be a lot more diligent with that. You have to act fast. You have to contain the damage. You have to recover some of your work. So, an internet outage may put you out, but you can go to the Starbucks and connect to any type of Wi-Fi.

Alaine Fulton: So, obviously, large companies that are running infrastructure and data centers, let’s say, they need that 100 percent uptime. So, making sure that you guys have UPSs, that you have some sort of backup, even if it’s like a 4G mobile hotspot, like I said.

Alaine Fulton: So, you know, there’s a lot of easy ways to kind of have some internet backup, but I would say the attack is really going to kind of put businesses to their needs, and that’s where you want to prioritize that.

Lee Kantor: Now, before we wrap, is there a story you can share – we’ll start with each of you – maybe where you helped a client, where they were going through something, and then you were able to help them get back on track, and then maybe protected them for the future. I know that you mentioned that one thing that was the startup that was able to get acquired eventually. But is there another story,maybe, Alaine, you can share that you were able to help a firm get through a rough time?

Paige Goss: We are predominantly more on the forefront, so we do have kind of SMBs all the way up to enterprise. So, we try to get ahead of a lot of this, so our focus is really documenting all of the policies, the procedures, kind of anticipate what can happen. We do have resources, and Paige’s company as well, where we can help after the attack.

Alaine Fulton: But we are really integrated in to, you know, when something has happened, we help them, we walk them through it. We call the providers, we work with that. So, we help kind of quarterback that, I would say, a little bit more than actually doing the remediation. We also rely on penetration testing, and that way we can kind of foresee where those holes are, where those gaps are.

Alaine Fulton: So, I would say we’re more on the the defense – or the offense side, I should say, to protecting environments and it’s been really helpful for organizations. Again, that does come with a cost. But again, it really depends on, you know, the size of the organization and how you’re running your business and what kind of data that you guys keep.

Lee Kantor: So, what is the pain they’re having right before they call you? Did they just have something or they got a scare? Like what occurred that spurred them to contact you?

Alaine Fulton: It was a third party company. So, we also do that as well. So, any organizations that are working with a third party company, we actually do assessments on that. Because, you know, company A, our client, they’re responsible to the end customer. Well, if they’re using Google Cloud or they’re using Dropbox, or what have you, they’re liable for those third party companies. So, it was a third party company that was breached. We had the assessment completed where that third party company said we checked all the boxes, we were compliant. Turns out that they weren’t.

Alaine Fulton: So, I protected my client because we did our due diligence to make sure that they said that they were compliant, when actually they weren’t, and that protected them from a lawsuit or having to pay out any of their customers. That third party is responsible for that. So, we saved them a lot of money in that sense.

Paige Goss: Alaine, that’s such an interesting example. We tend to go the other direction where our clients are getting security questionnaires from their clients. So, we have a lot of examples where they reach out to us, what has just happened is that their sales team gets a five-tab Excel spreadsheet on all of their security for the organization. And they basically say, crap, I have no idea how to fill this out. I have no idea if we have all of this or not. Or their clients are saying, you have X amount of time to go get a third party certification, ISO 27001, SOC 2, CMMC, et cetera.

Alaine Fulton: So, a lot of our business is driven from our customers, their customers pushing down hard core cyber requirements, and we get brought in to help them sustain that revenue and to help them grow, again, like I mentioned earlier, sort of turning cybersecurity into a revenue adjacent initiative, and it’s been extremely powerful. So, we also are on the front side. We don’t do the incident response as much, but more from a client requirement versus a third party risk, which is great that between the two orgs, we sort of covered the entire supply chain from what it sounds like.

Alaine Fulton: Yes, absolutely.

Lee Kantor: So, you’re kind of insurance for them before they need it.

Paige Goss: Yeah, that’s the goal, and really insurance plus. We hope that what they get out of working with us is that they become a lot more competitive in the market, they have these cyber requirements. So, Alaine and her company, as a third party reviewer, our clients don’t have to worry about that. They’re like, yes, we’re good, and here’s our third party attestation, or here’s our third party certificate. So, it becomes a competitive advantage.

Paige Goss: And a lot of our clients, including ourselves, we went in, leaned in even as a small firm, and that’s been extremely helpful. We’ve landed a ton of business because we had these cyber controls already in play and we didn’t have to spend the next 18 months trying to get there.

Lee Kantor: Well, Paige, if somebody wants to learn more about Point Solutions Security, what’s the best way to connect?

Paige Goss: Yeah. So, you can find me on LinkedIn, so Paige, and then it’s P-A-I-G-E, and last name Goss, G-O-S-S. The company website is pointsolutions-security.com. We also have a LinkedIn page that you can visit. And I think my WBE profile is somewhere where you can find me from our recent certification ourselves.

Lee Kantor: And, Alaine?

Alaine Fulton: Yes. I’m also on LinkedIn. It’s Alaine with an A, Fulton, F-U-L-T-O-N. The company is safehavensolutions – with an S -.com. And we are also in the WBE directory, I’m sure, somewhere.

Lee Kantor: Well, thank you both for participating in this. You shared really important information. Renita, anything else?

Renita Manley: Nothing. Just want to remind everybody listening to make sure you come to our Unconventional Women’s Conference on July 23rd. And we also have our WBEC-West conference that’s coming up in October. It’s going to be in Phoenix, Arizona. So, if you’re interested in that, make sure you go to our website, wbec-west.com, go to our events tab and learn more about it.

Lee Kantor: Well, Alaine and Paige, thank you so much for sharing your stories today. You’re both doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Alaine Fulton: Thanks for having us.

Paige Goss: Thank you so much.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor for Renita Manley, we will see you all next time on Women in Motion.

 

Tagged With: Digital Disasters, Point Solutions Group, Safe Haven Solutions

BRX Pro Tip: Asking the Money Question

July 7, 2025 by angishields

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BRX Pro Tip: Asking the Money Question

Stone Payton: Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips. Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, let’s chat a little bit about asking the money question.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. And I know this is something that is important to you and it is something that you are doing a great job with and that I’ve learned from over the years of working with you. But there is a secret, life hack tip, about how to ask that super difficult, uncomfortable question when it comes to sales. When you ask your prospect if they really do have the money to do the deal and it’s something that you do in a great way, in an elegant way, every single time, you just straight up ask them.

Lee Kantor: I mean, it doesn’t have to be a big deal. It doesn’t require a big lead-up and some, you know, dramatic music playing. Just do it matter of factly. Simply ask them the money question. It’s not that difficult. Your service costs, what it costs. You shouldn’t be hiding from that fact. It shouldn’t be something that you sneak in. It is what it is.

Lee Kantor: And if you feel weird about the price, that’s your own mental constraint. That’s you self-sabotaging yourself. I mean, if it requires you to sit in front of a mirror to practice quoting price until you can do it without stuttering or hedging, then do that. But your price is your price. This isn’t something that you should be quick to negotiate down on. This should be something that you should be proud of and feel confident that you’re providing such value that they’re getting a deal no matter what the price is.

Lee Kantor: So, don’t make the money question into a big hairy deal. It is what it is. Just like your price is what it is. You shouldn’t have to be ducking this or hedging on this. It should just be spoken as a matter of factly as any other piece of information you have about your service or their business.

Stone Payton: Well – and the other piece of this is communicating the answer to the money question either before or after and it can work both ways. But if you just communicate very clearly, very confidently, what the fee structure is, what the price is, and then you ask them if, you know, in their opinion, do they feel that that investment is something that they have, or how do you feel about that, or do you feel like you can afford it? Do you feel like you’ll get your return on that financial investment? If your every bit is candid with what the price is, then it makes perfect sense for you to be very candid and straightforward in asking the question.

Stone Payton: The two go together and you should have a good, clear answer. You shouldn’t be making up the answer every time you’re talking. You should know what the answer is and you ought to be able to communicate it. There’s some science that says talk about a range. There are others that say, you know, tell them $2,348.17. And most cases I do the latter. And then, I’m pretty quick to follow that up, “You know, how do you feel about that? In your opinion, do you feel like that’s a good investment for what we’re describing?” Get that answer. Don’t leave that out there hanging because that energy does not serve in the conversation or the process at all.

BRX Pro Tip: B2B Podcast Guest – How to Get Invited Back

July 4, 2025 by angishields

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BRX Pro Tip: B2B Podcast Guest – How to Get Invited Back

Stone Payton : Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips, Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, let’s talk about being on the other side of the mic, because being a guest on B2B podcast can be an incredibly fruitful strategy. There’s getting invited, but maybe more importantly, getting invited back.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I’ll tell you a couple of reasons why I invite someone back. And then I think that that might help the listener who’s thinking about becoming a B2B podcast guest, if they intend or would like to be invited back in the future to any of the given show that they’re trying to get on. And if you’re putting a large effort into getting on shows, you should be putting on an even larger effort on delivering value back to the show and the host in order to get invited back. So here’s a couple of things they can try.

Lee Kantor: Number one, deliver some of the post-show assets and promotion that you create from being on the show, and share them on your social media channels. Tag the guest and the show. But you have to go beyond just sharing the episode. Take the content and create new content from it.

Lee Kantor: Create audiograms, create a quote graphic. Do a LinkedIn post about your experience and promote the episode multiple times. Don’t just promote you were on the show and then you’re like, “Hey, I was on the show and here’s the link.” That’s table stakes. That’s the beginning.

Lee Kantor: You should be using that content throughout the year. And every time you use the content or a chunk of the content, tag the host, tag the show. Make sure that the host and the show know that you’re sharing the content so they can reshare your content. It’s only in your best interest, and plus it reminds them of, wow, this guest is really getting a lot of leverage out of their show, and it’s helping my show reach a new audience, and then it’s helping them show how unique and special they are.

Lee Kantor: So if you look at your guest experience as, hey, I’m partnering now with this show, I’m going to do these things to help them, help more people become aware of their show, and also my interview. So, more is better in this regard.

Lee Kantor: Then another thing you could be doing to help the show is be a connector and an advocate for the show. After your appearance, introduce the host to other guests that might be good fits for the show, other sponsors who might be good for the show, other collaborators who might be good for the show.

Lee Kantor: Don’t use these interactions as one-way streets. You can be serving the host of that show they got you on. They let you talk about what you do, do things to reciprocate back to them. You know the hosts are going to remember and reward the guests who help them grow their show or their business, and not just perform well on the air. That’s table stakes.

Lee Kantor: You have to do more than just showing up and being smart on the air if you want to be invited back.

BRX Pro Tip: B2B Podcast – What Kind of Host Am I?

July 3, 2025 by angishields

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BRX Pro Tip: B2B Podcast – What Kind of Host Am I?

Stone Payton : Welcome back to Business RadioX Pro Tips, Lee Kantor and Stone Payton here with you. Lee, we work with a great many hosts throughout the Business RadioX network system. Maybe it would be helpful to share an idea or two that host or aspiring hosts ought to be thinking about.

Lee Kantor: Yeah, I think one of the things when you’re thinking about becoming a podcast host or a podcast host, you have to understand your voice and what is your kind of persona on the air. Every great podcast host brings their own kind of unique style and authenticity to the microphone. But you have to ask yourself, what kind of host am I? Am I the expert? Am I the one that’s guiding listeners with deep insights? Am I a connector? Am I sparking conversations between fascinating guests? Am I an entertainer who’s keeping things lively and engaged? Or maybe I’m just a learner. I’m asking questions of the audience is dying to know.

Lee Kantor: Knowing your hosting style is just more than some sort of personality quiz. It’s going to shape the show’s tone. It’s going to shape who your guests are, and it’s going to shape the audience’s experience. So lean into your strengths and don’t be afraid to change over time.

Lee Kantor: But the best hosts are self-aware, they’re adaptable, and they’re always focused on creating value for their listeners. So take a moment to reflect. What’s your natural approach behind the mic? How do you want your audience and guests to feel after every episode? And when you know your style, you can build a show that’s really authentically you.

From Cash Flow to Compliance: What Every Business Owner Needs to Know Before Selling

July 2, 2025 by angishields

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From Cash Flow to Compliance: What Every Business Owner Needs to Know Before Selling
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Brought to you by Diesel David and Main Street Warriors

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In this episode of Cherokee Business Radio, Joshua Kornitsky speaks with David Shavzin, Shelly Gibson, and Amy Robinson. Shelly, a business broker, shares insights on preparing businesses for sale, emphasizing the importance of accurate financials, cash flow, and early planning. David offers his expertise on business exit strategies and succession planning, highlighting key steps owners should take to maximize value and ensure a successful transition. Amy, an HR consultant, discusses the value of tailored HR support for businesses of all sizes, focusing on compliance, employee relations, and the need for proactive HR management. Together, they provide practical advice for business owners on maximizing value and ensuring smooth transitions, whether selling a business, planning for succession, or strengthening HR practices.

Shelly-Gibson-bwShelly Gibson has over twenty-seven years of successful executive management, business development, and operations experience.

She is a Principal/Agent with Transworld Business Advisors. As a Business Broker, Shelly values the relationships made in her community to support mutual success and reputation.

Connect with Shelly on LinkedIn.

Amy-Robinson-bwAmy Robinson is an HR professional with over 13 years of experience helping clients grow strong teams while staying compliant with the ever-changing HR landscape and creating environments where people actually like showing up to work.

Over the years, she’s done a bit of everything – employee relations, performance management, process and procedure creation and implementation, employee handbooks, personnel file and I-9 audits, employee investigations, EEOC responses, etc… you name it, Amy’s done it!

Amy is passionate about creating positive outcomes for her clients and aligning the support options that she can offer with what the business truly needs. She focuses on clear communication, problem-solving, and bringing a human touch to HR, whether it’s navigating tough situations or celebrating team wins.

Amy enjoys her affiliation with the Kennesaw Business Association as well as serving on their Super Women’s Committee. She loves spending time with her three adult children and their families, especially her sweet granddaughter and look forward to welcoming another grandbaby in October.

Connect with Amy on LinkedIn.

David-Shavzin-bwDavid Shavzin is President and Founder of The Value Track. He is an M&A Advisor and Business Broker – really an Exit Guide – helping business owners with a single focus: a smooth and timely transition of a lifetime.

Too often, they have not built the value they need and are unprepared when the time comes to put their transition into action. David guides clients through goal setting, exit planning, value growth, and then the sale of their company.

He founded The Value Track in 2000, combining his M&A, value creation, and exit strategy experience. He is Co-Founder/Past President of XPX Atlanta (Exit Planning Exchange), 20 years a Certified Management Consultant, and a frequent speaker on these topics to both business owners and other professional advisors.

After 5 years in banking and finance, he spent 12 years with life sciences company Sanofi/Aventis. He spent 4 years in Paris, where he worked in finance and M&A roles. Then, 8 years in Atlanta leading the Quality, Finance, Supply Chain, Customer Service, and IT functions within a $175M subsidiary before launching The Value Track.

Connect with David on LinkedIn.

Transcript-iconThis transcript is machine transcribed by Sonix

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Woodstock, Georgia. It’s time for Cherokee Business Radio. Now, here’s your host. Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX Studios in Woodstock, Georgia. It’s time for Cherokee Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to another exciting episode of Cherokee Business Radio. I’m your host. Joshua Kornitsky professional iOS implementer, and it’s just so great to have you here with us today. I’ve got a studio full of incredible folks. I can’t wait to get to them. So let’s just jump right in. My first guest is Shelly Gibson. She’s a business broker with Transworld Business Advisors. Good morning Shelly. How are you?

Shelly Gibson: Good morning Joshua I’m great. Thanks.

Joshua Kornitsky: I’m so happy to hear that. So what do you do? How do you help people?

Shelly Gibson: So I help business owners. When they are ready to exit out of their business, I help find a buyer for them and get them one step closer to retirement.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And how did you become a business broker?

Shelly Gibson: Yeah. So I’ve been doing this three years now. When I exited corporate America, uh, there was somebody that I had worked with in my first career. Um, we had worked together about ten years and then took a little break on my second career, and he had started business brokerage, and, um, was like, I need my my former work spouse with me. Come do this with me. And I’m like, great, what is it? And um, and went and got my real estate license, which the state of Georgia requires, even though in most cases I’m not selling real estate. And yeah, then I’ve been doing doing this since since then.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s fantastic. And is it work that you find rewarding?

Shelly Gibson: Absolutely. Um, I mean, I’m a numbers geek, I like panels, I get to look at that. Um, and then I’m helping business owners, you know, it’s it’s it’s exciting when they can go to the closing table and say, now I can just take a sabbatical.

Joshua Kornitsky: So, okay, let’s let’s begin at the beginning of that journey. Right. So when, when a business owner is thinking about bringing their business to market or selling their business, you know, is it they pick up the phone, they make a phone call, and, uh, that’s it. They’re good to go. 20 minutes later, they sell their business. How does that process work? Well, when when should they reach to you? How about that?

Shelly Gibson: Yeah. I mean, they should reach out. Reach out to me as early as possible once they’re thinking it about it. Um, they really should be thinking about exit planning before they get to me. Um, but once they get to me, I’m going to give them what their, their business is worth right now at this point in time for them to make a decision on, to move forward or not. Okay.

Joshua Kornitsky: And what are the types of things that you help them understand broadly? Because obviously every case must be different.

Shelly Gibson: Right. And the number one thing is cash flow. It’s king. Um, cash flow is king. That is what a buyer is buying. Um, so understanding the cash flow and looking at trends, um, there’s other factors that may affect the multiplier to go up and up and down a little bit, but it’s really cash flows.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And you know, what are some of the more common questions that they ask you?

Shelly Gibson: What’s my business worth? That’s always.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fun. Yeah. Sure.

Shelly Gibson: Okay. Um, yeah. That’s how long will it take to sell? Do you have somebody right now, um, that’s wanting that or that’s wanting this. They think, um, their industry sometimes, or they think maybe it’s the location. Um, I’m helping them understand one one of their business, but two, they also have to get in the mind of the buyer to who’s going to be buying their business and what does that look like?

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure, that makes sense. And with something like and I’m sure you can’t give a specific answer, but with something like selling a business, you know, what do you say is the average amount of time nationally?

Shelly Gibson: It’s nine months to sell a business once it hits the market. That’s not industry specific. Um, that’s not Georgia. That’s not my brokerage necessarily. There’s a lot of factors that go into.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and I’m sure that there are certain types of businesses that that might be hotter at certain times than others, and certainly people that believe their business to be in a desirable space. And you must be a part time therapist as well.

Shelly Gibson: You have to walk them off the ledge a little bit or or just explain? Yes. There’s there’s a lot. Yes. When there is due diligence that takes a lot of time and effort out of the seller. And yes, I’m I’m the therapist during that time.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fair enough. And again understanding. So I’ll stop saying it that every circumstance is going to be different related to the specific organization and their details. What are um what are some of the things they can do to help shore up their business before they decide to bring it to market, to sell?

Shelly Gibson: Yeah. Great question. Um, so what I look at their financials. Do the financials make sense? Um, have good financials, keep good book records. Um, having standard operating procedures in place, written, um, so that they can, when they remove themselves out of the out of the business, the new person, there’s already a plan in place removing them out of the business. Um, is the owner of the business. The business. So the more they can separate themselves from the business and have a step, it’s going to make it more valuable. Do they take vacations. Or if you say the word vacation, I can’t. I’m a business owner, you know. Then then they’re really involved in the business. A little less appealing to a buyer.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure. And I imagine that it must take some time for them to adjust and and get things ready. So that’s why you had said they they should engage you a little earlier in that process than absolutely, perhaps expecting to pick up the phone and make a fast track.

Shelly Gibson: Well, I got to give them a reality check. Right. So people think their business is worth usually more than it really is. And I have to give them the true number of what I think it would sell for. And if that’s not going to work for them at this moment in time, then they got to figure out what they’re going to do to get to the number that they want to retire with.

Joshua Kornitsky: What are some of the surprises that you find in in a positive way? Let’s look at the positive side rather than than the negative side. What are some of the things that you’ve learned on this journey, as you’re working with businesses that can help other businesses be in a better place?

Shelly Gibson: Um, I don’t know if surprises. Um. Um, definitely the books. Um, I get really surprised.

Joshua Kornitsky: So it’s really the finding.

Shelly Gibson: I mean, it really is. And it’s amazing how many small business owners don’t necessarily keep up with their books, or if you ask them if they have a year to date PNL. And then you have to explain what A is, a profit and loss statement. That’s not usually a good sign.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And and with that type of thing, do you have the the tools or the direction that you can offer them to to sort of get things on track? Obviously you can’t do it for them. Um, but do you have resources you can point them to to help them out?

Shelly Gibson: Yeah, absolutely. Or refer, you know, um, maybe it’s that they’re missing. They need a, um, a fractional CFO to come in and help them with that. Or maybe they do need to hire a bookkeeper. Um, kind of point them in what I think if if it’s not sellable right now, then why. Sure. And depending on what that is, give them the right direction on that.

Joshua Kornitsky: That makes sense. And it’s good. So you’re good to have as a resource. It sounds like for any business owner that that’s even considering.

Shelly Gibson: Absolutely. Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right. And one of the things that always seems to occur to me is, is in every industry, right. What are some of the myths people believe about selling their business, whether or not they are accurate? And if you could shed some light on that, I think that might help people understand.

Shelly Gibson: Yeah. So on the sales side, um, they think that their business is going to be valued off of revenue. Okay. Um, I, well, I did $1 million in revenue last year, but you did a $1,000 in profit or $10,000 in profit. So it’s, it’s that sometimes shocked them. It’s really about the profit. Some of those expenses in there we look at and we dissect a little bit, um, where the new owner may not take on those same expenses. So we do definitely consider that in the valuation. But that’s usually the most one of the most surprising things to them. Um, they think just the name alone that somebody’s going to buy based on their name. Yes. And they also don’t understand how is the buyer going to pay for it? Um, so they may not. Um, they think the buyer may have the cat. I want $1 million for my business. Most buyers don’t have $1 million in cash. There’s going to be a loan, um, an SBA loan involved at that level. And so then it’s also okay, what is the SBA going to lend on your business? And that can be a little bit of a gap from the seller’s expectations, um, to what the bank would be willing to loan on.

Joshua Kornitsky: And so if I made to me that that presents an interesting question is, do you help your clients understand what SBA uses to evaluate?

Shelly Gibson: Yes. And that’s how I, I do my valuations as well. If I know this is going to need a loan, um, then I’ve got I’m going to I’m actually going to partner with SBA lenders that I know and have relationships with before I take it to market. Oh, wow. And send them the financials or send them my recast, we call it. And hey, what would you loan on this business? They have to qualify the buyer to, but they have to qualify the business. And if the business they have, you know, to service the debt ratio, I’m not going to try to get to the bank.

Joshua Kornitsky: You’ll lose me.

Shelly Gibson: Too. But out here. But but they’ve got to understand what is the the history of that business that they’re going to be willing to loan loan against. And you’ve got to set your sales price based on that.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. Well, that makes really good sense to to help people understand some of the things that they need to know. Sort of on the front end. Um, in, in your you’d mentioned earlier that you had spent a few weeks in corporate America.

Shelly Gibson: Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: Facetious. During your time in, in corporate America, were there any are any of those skills, skills that help you now things that you learned in that environment?

Shelly Gibson: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was a multi-unit leader with two different companies. And so each location was responsible for their own profit and loss statements. And I was overseeing each location. Then the area, the district, the region.

Joshua Kornitsky: It’s like you were running multiple businesses.

Shelly Gibson: So. Exactly.

Joshua Kornitsky: Does that give you good insight?

Shelly Gibson: Absolutely. I see you think the big company makes all this money, but the one location is responsible for that manager’s salary. How? Well that one location does really is determination of of the profit of that which has helped me today.

Joshua Kornitsky: It brings up an interesting side question. Uh, are you able to help businesses that have multiple locations? Is that or is that any different than selling a single point?

Shelly Gibson: Um, it’s typically not different in sometimes. Yeah. Um, there are businesses that have more than one location and you value them. You know, you may find a buyer that wants both. You may find a buyer that wants one. So you could put it on the market together or separate.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. Well that makes good sense. And I always like to ask sort of a thinking question as well. You know, what are some of the biggest lessons you’ve learned on this journey from corporate America to to business broker? What are some of the things that you’ve personally taken away?

Shelly Gibson: Mm. Great question Joshua. Um, you know, I have learned, um, just having your people, um, to collaborate with, um, is very important. You know, like I said, I mentioned the SBA lenders before, right? Um, so that’s a lesson. Having that relationship with people, I can help them if they get the if they go through them for the loan. But they’re helping me understand, um, how to appropriately value a business on if it’s going to need a loan. Um, mentioned fractional, you know, CFO that I can refer to to help grow that business. So I’ve learned a lot of that, like really using my network and relationships of these other great people I’ve met, um, that don’t necessarily are buying or selling a business. Um, but they can help. We can all help each other. So just the networking piece is really impacted. I guess my career on this. That’s collaboration.

Joshua Kornitsky: Great insight and a great message for anybody listening, no matter what space they’re in is, is it’s it’s uh, as Daniel or Dan Sullivan puts it, it’s who not how. Right. Getting getting the right people to help you make the progress you need to make. Well, I can’t thank you enough, sir. Is there any other points we missed? Anything else that that I should ask that I didn’t?

Shelly Gibson: Um, I think we hit them all. Yes, absolutely. Um.

Joshua Kornitsky: How do people get in touch with you? We didn’t talk about that.

Shelly Gibson: Oh. Well, um, you can reach me by phone. Email? I’m on LinkedIn as Shelly Gibson. Um, Transworld Business Advisors.

Joshua Kornitsky: And we’ll share all of your contact information on our site when we publish. Uh, but I always like to ask if there’s a number you want to give out. If people have questions, are they welcome to call you?

Shelly Gibson: Absolutely. Yeah. Six. Seven. (678) 978-9514. That is my cell phone number. I’m a Cherokee County resident right here, so yeah, give me a call if you want to talk.

Joshua Kornitsky: Just out of curiosity, do you only work in Cherokee?

Shelly Gibson: No. Absolutely not, absolutely not. Excuse me. I am all over, um, Georgia. Really? It doesn’t even have to be Atlanta.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fantastic. Well, Shelly Gibson, Business Burger with Transworld Business Advisors, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and your insight. Uh, if you have the time, please stick around. We’ve got two more wonderful guests. I’d love to hear you. So thank you so very much.

Shelly Gibson: Thank you. Joshua.

Joshua Kornitsky: My pleasure. So my next guest, I’ve had the pleasure of knowing for a little while, and I have to say, uh, she may be the most patient person that I’ve ever met because we’ve had to reschedule a couple of times. Uh, please let me welcome you to the studio. Amy Robinson. Um, from Intrinsic HR Business Partners.

Amy Robinson: Thank you. Joshua, I’m thrilled to be here. And I really appreciate you having me along for the show.

Joshua Kornitsky: I’m just happy to have you here to talk and tell us about Intrinsic HR business partners. Tell us what you do.

Amy Robinson: Yeah, well, we are an HR consulting company. And, um, you know, we service all sizes, all sizes of business. Um, those who have internal HR as well as those companies that don’t feel that they’re large enough for, you know, a dedicated HR person. So we, you know, partner with those companies. We, um, we get to know them, we get to know their businesses, and we do whatever we can to help them with any HR need essentially, other than payroll and recruiting. But, um, other all of the other HR services that you would think of as far as compliance, everything from compliance to employee relations to personnel files to I-9, to I-9 audits, to handbooks, um, we can manage FMLA Leave.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Amy Robinson: Everything you know runs the gamut.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, so is this just. Excuse me. Uh, a single package. You just drop on everybody.

Amy Robinson: Oh, no. Absolutely not. Everything we do is customized. Um, one of our our our biggest selling service is what we call our on call service. And it’s just like having an attorney on retainer. My clients, um, if they have the on call service, can call me at any time with any issue. And I will be their helpdesk.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. Well, with HR stuff though, that that must lead to some very, uh, let’s go with interesting calls.

Amy Robinson: Interesting is the word Joshua. Um, I’ve thought of writing a book or having a reality show, um, because it is so entertaining. Some of the calls that I get, you know, some of the most recent ones are, hey, Amy, I’ve got two guys fighting out in the warehouse. What do I do? Um, you know, just crazy things like that, that, that, that people need help with. A lot of it is in regard to employee relations. Those on call, All, um, phone calls and emails that I get from my clients. But as far as what we offer, we don’t have just standard packages. We get to know the clients we get, talk with them and see what their needs are, and then offer them a customized, uh, group of support services.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, so it’s a tailored offering.

Amy Robinson: Absolutely. Very customized.

Joshua Kornitsky: And is there a minimum size organization?

Amy Robinson: Not at all. Not at all. I mean, I had a client with five, five employees. You know, my philosophy is if you have employees, you need HR. Sure. No matter what. No matter how small you are, no matter how large, no matter how long you’ve been in business, I find that a lot of my customers started very small family businesses. And fortunately, they’ve grown to be very large, um, very thriving businesses. And they’ve never had HR. And now they find that they need it. And so I call the transition. They’ve gone from a lemonade stand to a corporation. Okay. And now it’s time to have some official processes and procedures in place to to protect that business, but also to promote a very positive and healthy culture.

Joshua Kornitsky: So that’s interesting because a lot of times as people scale, and I see this in some of the work that I do, companies, particularly entrepreneurial companies, tend to grow organically and they solve their problems as they come up without really thinking about the long term.

Amy Robinson: Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: So when when you do get engaged in that lemonade stand that that grew into a form, more formalized corporation, um, assuming they ask for your help on on things, do you help them sort of evaluate the current state?

Amy Robinson: Absolutely. The very first thing I’m always going to do is get them compliant. Um, many are out of compliance. You know, many people don’t know how to fill out an I-9 form or how to correctly store them. Um, you know, um, document retaining is huge and, and a lot of people don’t have, have no idea about that. So the, the very first thing I do is evaluate their situation, potentially audit some of their files, their I-9, their personnel files, and make sure that they’re compliant.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, so you had said that that sometimes you’re also supplementing an existing HR department rather than someone that doesn’t have one. Uh, I imagine that’s very helpful for that environment where they kind of don’t know what they don’t know exactly.

Amy Robinson: I find that that most of my clients, their HR person, is not a truly trained HR professional. There’s someone that was hired for a different role who did very, very well. And when the company decided that they might need HR, they promoted that person into HR. And they’ve they’ve never truly had HR training and they’re relying on Google.

Joshua Kornitsky: That is not always a safe bet.

Amy Robinson: It is not.

Joshua Kornitsky: But I once googled a recipe that required four quarts of broth rather than four cups, and we had a very expensive soup. I don’t use Google for certain things.

Amy Robinson: You should not. You certainly should not for air.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and on that subject, because you talked, you used a word that that often makes people tense. You use the word compliance. And when you talk about compliance, are you talking about to the state of Georgia? Are you talking about to federal employment laws.

Amy Robinson: Both and and state and local laws, you know, county laws and city laws?

Joshua Kornitsky: So what about like we were talking with Shelly earlier. What if you’ve got a business in multiple locations? What if I’m in multiple states? Are you just dealing with Georgia?

Amy Robinson: Oh, no. No. Um, actually, our our parent company, because we are part of a group of companies. Okay. We do business in all 50 states. Oh, really? We absolutely do. Okay. So, no, we are always going to and I have many clients that are out of the state of Georgia. So we are always going to apply both federal and state law.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you keep track of all of those.

Amy Robinson: I do, I do.

Joshua Kornitsky: That must be a busy, busy.

Amy Robinson: It is. It’s kind of the first thing I do every morning is check to see what’s not just come down as rule or law, but what’s in the pipeline, so that I can make my clients aware so that they are prepared for those changes as they come through.

Joshua Kornitsky: When you had said earlier that one of the services you offer is if they need help with like an employee handbook. So when those laws change, what how do you what do you do?

Amy Robinson: Well, they would do a supplement to their handbook. I would I would make them aware of the information. And they could either do an addendum or a supplement.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. That makes perfect sense. But they don’t have to, you know, if it’s my company and I’ve got Uncle Joe doing HR who used to work in the warehouse, but it’s too hot out there.

Amy Robinson: Exactly.

Joshua Kornitsky: He’s not going to know that. He’s not. And he certainly isn’t going to know how to how to take action on whatever the change is?

Amy Robinson: No, and that’s exactly what I provide for my clients.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. Well. And is that does that also extend to your on call service that if it’s an out of state question if it’s somebody.

Amy Robinson: Yes. So part of that is just keeping them abreast of all of the changes that have come through and making them aware of them as they happen, so that they can make whatever changes need to be made, whether it be in their handbook or their processes and procedures, timekeeping, whatever the issue may be.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And with that type of stuff, we talked about kind of keeping the the putting the updates out there for anything regarding like an employee handbook. But do you help the with the companies that have HR. Do you help educate them as well?

Amy Robinson: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: What do you do with those types of organizations?

Amy Robinson: Um, I just help again, compliance is the biggest issue. And then I say, what do you need? What is what is first and foremost on your plate. And they might say, you know, my files are a mess. I just need help knowing how to to store these records. You know, my onboarding process. I need help with my onboarding process, and I can help them refine those things and make sure that they are including all of the documentation that needs to be included. Um, I just recently helped two fairly large clients transition to different payroll providers. That is a very tedious job and a large transition to make. So I assisted them with those and getting all of the documents. We’re trying to get as many of our clients as we can to go paperless. And some do and some absolutely don’t want to. They they are older school their manufacturing companies that the grandfather started and he wants he wants to see paper. And so we accommodate those clients and you know, give them the best advice that we can give them And still do things the way they want them done.

Joshua Kornitsky: That makes sense. So. So you don’t tell them what to do, you just advise them.

Amy Robinson: I advise them the end of the day, they are the owners. They’re the decision makers. I’m going to give them the best advice that I can give them, not just for compliance purposes, but for culture purposes, you know, to promote the very best workplace that they can provide to their employees to ensure their success and to just take the weight of air off their shoulders.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure. And that’s actually, I think, probably a bigger weight than a lot of people realize till it’s grown significantly with the organization.

Amy Robinson: The mistake that people make is you alluded to it a few moments ago. They they become reactive when something happens, rather than being proactive and having HR and HR processes and procedures in place that protect them from those, those big incidents that can happen then that they are frantically trying to respond to and correct.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure. And let’s. That makes perfect sense to me. Let’s build on that. What are some of the other, uh, misconceptions people have things about? Just air in general.

Amy Robinson: That they’re too small for it. You know, that they don’t need it, that, um, that they have subscribed to this Air newsletter that gives them all the information that they need. Um, a lot of the larger payroll companies offer air service as part of their payroll package and not wanting to speak disparagingly about those, but most of them are AI generated. Um, you’re not going to speak to a person. If you do, you’re not going to speak to the same person twice. I think that’s one thing that sets intrinsic apart, is that we are going to offer very, very personal service. I know my clients, I’ve been to their locations, most of them. I know a lot of their staff. I’ve performed, Um, on site management training or harassment training. And I’ve gotten to know them. I know their stories. I know their situations. So when they contact me as a follow up three months later to a situation that that has already occurred, I know about it and I’m familiar with it, and I know how they run their business. And so my solution to them is going to be based on the fact that I’m their partner. And I am not just a random person at a large corporation who’s going to receive this particular call without knowing all of the history.

Joshua Kornitsky: So and do you share all that information within your team? So if it’s not you that answers the phone someone.

Amy Robinson: I do, but for the most part they’re going to get me.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, well they get the expert. Thank you. Thank you I really appreciate this is, um, as you yourself said, it’s sort of one of those common beliefs that we don’t need HR, and I, uh, without boring anybody with my stories, I’ll just simply say, uh, most of the air lessons that I’ve borne witness to as members of a leadership team and as a business owner, uh, were air lessons that typically cost someone a lot of money.

Amy Robinson: They do. They’re painful lessons, typically.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah. And if you’re if your mindset is, well, I won’t hire an HR person until I need one. Well, well, that that hire is going to cost you the settlement plus the cost of the.

Amy Robinson: Absolutely, absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: That that that’s an expensive way to to tackle your problem.

Amy Robinson: It certainly.

Joshua Kornitsky: Is. It’s like saying I’m not going to do my books until I get audited.

Amy Robinson: Exactly. And I don’t recommend it at all.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, it is uh, as you said, it’s a tailored service. So if that’s their approach, uh, you got to let them do it. So, um, I, I can’t thank you enough. Is there any other thing you you had shared with me, uh, previously? I know that you’ve done the, uh, the CIP event for, uh, the Governor’s Gun Club. Do you have any do you have anything else coming up right now?

Amy Robinson: Um, well, I’m a part of, uh, Kennesaw Business Association. It’s a thriving organization. And, um, so I’m very active in that. We have our annual women’s conference coming up on August 22nd. It’s a great event for women in business. I would recommend everybody jump on that website and take a look at that event. And, um, you know, I attend lots of networking events. I’m always trying to meet new people, you know, just see who I can help.

Joshua Kornitsky: I think that’s great. And if somebody has an HR question, can they reach out to you?

Amy Robinson: They absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: Can. That’s fantastic. Now, before we get to how people reach you, I have it in my notes from when we chatted earlier regarding a little bit you have at the end of your email, and I don’t know if you remember it verbatim.

Amy Robinson: Or I don’t. I don’t remember it verbatim and I’ve already touched on it. I just, you know, H.R is not something that’s optional. It is necessary if you are a business owner and you have employees, no matter how large you are, no matter how small and no matter how long you’ve been in business, air is needed if you have employees.

Joshua Kornitsky: The tail end of of your own quote is that they are not nice to haves. They are must haves for growth and success.

Amy Robinson: Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: And I think that that’s both accurate and should resonate with any business owner who wants to grow. If you don’t protect your business with proper HR guidance, you are likely to find that you don’t have much of a business to protect.

Amy Robinson: I would agree with that 100%.

Joshua Kornitsky: All right. What’s the best way for folks to reach you?

Amy Robinson: Well, I know that you’re going to share my email address. It is a bit long, so I’ll just let you share that. But my phone number is (470) 240-4835. And intrinsic air.com is our website and that’s available as well. And you know I just look forward to helping businesses in the southeast.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you for sharing your knowledge around air and helping people know what they need to keep an eye out for. Amy Robinson from Intrinsic Air Business Partners. Thank you.

Amy Robinson: Thank you Joshua.

Joshua Kornitsky: My pleasure. And we have one incredible final guest that I am happy to get to. Uh, our last guest today is, uh, David Shavzin, uh, exec guide and M&A advisor, and really the founder of the value track. Hello, David.

David Shavzin: Good morning, Joshua. Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Joshua Kornitsky: Thanks for being here. Um, can you tell us a little bit about your background? What brought you into to M&A advisory work?

David Shavzin: Yeah, um, really kind of started back in my corporate career, worked for a very large global company, and we started doing, um, a lot of finance work and a lot of mergers and acquisitions, acquiring companies, selling companies. So, uh, got started kind of early with all of this.

Joshua Kornitsky: So that was a great foundation, it sounds like. So what do you do now to help the business owners that you work with?

David Shavzin: So two things. Um, on the one hand, we are helping owners get ready to sell, so we will get in and do what we call value growth consulting, uh, which is, as it says, try to build value but also take a lot of problems off the table. Both of your other guests this morning have been talking about a variety of kinds of problems. We try to solve those, uh, leading up to an eventual sale. And then the other thing that we do is the sale on that sell side representation.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sure. Okay. Well, and that makes perfect sense. So. So what are some of the mistakes that the business owners make when they’re getting ready to sell?

David Shavzin: How much time do we have?

Joshua Kornitsky: Uh, we have all the time in the world. And I know it may seem duplicitous, but it isn’t because you’re in two very different aspects of a similar business.

David Shavzin: Yeah. No, no, no, a lot of the things that Shelly talked about are dead on. Doesn’t matter the size of the business or the industry. Um, and then there’s a lot more. I think the big things are that, you know, they’re not getting ready. Um, now, they have often haven’t been through it before, so they don’t really know all these things. But not preparing ahead, not bringing the right team around of advisors to help them.

Joshua Kornitsky: So let me stop you. Let’s talk about that. What do you mean by a team of advisors?

David Shavzin: So I always, uh, compare it a little bit to the sale of a house. I’m sure Shelly uses that a lot. Right? You you don’t wake up one day and then decide tomorrow I’m going to sell the house and then put it on the market four days later. Right. And so, um, and you shouldn’t really do that on your own anyway, so, you know, it is. Again, I’ll go back to the house analogy. Right. Uh, you’ve got the realtor that’s helping you. You’ve got the inspector when you’re buying the house, probably the inspector on your own house to check things out. Mortgage broker, uh, all kinds of folks that are helping you. Same thing with the business. And so that team is critical to have around you as opposed to doing it yourself. Right. Um, the CPA. We talked about bookkeeping and prep, answering questions in attorney, just like you have when you’re selling your house to help make sure that they’re taking care of all the liabilities and making sure that you’re doing the deal the right way and things don’t go wrong. Um, in four in in my role representing the seller like Shelly, we have a lot of experience. We’ve seen a lot of different sales. We know what to avoid. We know how to make that company, uh, present that company in the best light. And when an owner tries to do all of that on their own, it usually doesn’t work well.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and correct me if I’m wrong, but the other side’s got a team in most cases, don’t they?

David Shavzin: Yeah, exactly. Right. The other side’s got the representation and you ought to. Right. You’re going to be on the wrong side of that if you’re not doing it. Uh, well enough. We have an example. We worked with a client, did some work up front, and they decided to go ahead and try to sell the company themselves. And a year later, and about $100,000 spent, they were We’re back at square one.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, it it’s one of those things, uh, that that I’m sure you can do yourself. Just like you can rep yourself, represent yourself in court. But I think it was Mark Twain that said, if you represent yourself in court, you’ve got an idiot for a client.

David Shavzin: I would never use that word about my client.

Joshua Kornitsky: No, no, no. Mark Twain. No.

Speaker6: I know, I know. American author. Yeah. No no.

David Shavzin: No. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, it it is, but it’s it’s a huge, complex, painstaking, time consuming process. And it’s and it’s usually their entire life is in their, usually their entire retirement financially is in that company.

Joshua Kornitsky: So that’s a that’s a really interesting thought to consider right. Is is how much they’re personally tied up with that. And when when you’re dealing with folks for whom this is their blood, sweat and tears, you know, how do you help them understand?

David Shavzin: Uh, it’s, takes some time, some coaching, some education, sharing some examples. Um, you know, there’s a there’s a study. I think it was UBS that did it. 81% of owners who have sold regret it.

Speaker6: Really?

David Shavzin: Yeah. And and there’s, you know, a few key reasons in there. One is basically the you know, they’ll talk about, oh, I didn’t plan enough. What that really means is that they didn’t plan enough to make it as sellable and as valuable as it could have been as part of it. The other real big thing issue out there is too often they’ve been at this, let’s say, 20 or 30 years their entire life. They sell it. They’ve planned zero for the next day and the next what might be 20 or 30 years.

Joshua Kornitsky: Right.

Speaker6: You know.

Joshua Kornitsky: And then then the the revenue stream is gone.

David Shavzin: Revenue stream is gone. Yeah. Well, yeah. And even if they get a lot of money. Right. What do you know. What do they do? They they think they’re going to play golf every day or travel. That gets old really quickly.

Joshua Kornitsky: I’d like the opportunity to find out.

Speaker6: That’s what I do believe. That’s exactly what I believe.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, so. So when they’re thinking about making an exit. Um, what type of preparation should should they consider?

David Shavzin: How many hours do we.

Speaker6: Have.

Joshua Kornitsky: Joshua?

Speaker6: As many as you like.

David Shavzin: So there is really so much it’s I would say at the outset is all of basic business principles, right? If they had just so many of the basics in place, we talked about HR and people. We’ve talked about a lot about bookkeeping and finance. But there’s also, you know, what is the marketing machine doing? Is it bringing in revenue or is it the owner having to do all these things? Uh, we talked Shelly talked about the owner dependance. That’s the first question we get, you know, buyers look at the financials and then they say, why are they leaving? You know, what they’re really saying is.

Joshua Kornitsky: I hadn’t.

Speaker6: Thought of that. Yes.

David Shavzin: It’s what’s wrong with the business is part of that. You know, and if there’s nothing wrong with it, it’s how much are they walking out the door within their head. You know, as the owner, that’s going to make the company less valuable because that person’s gone. If somebody buys it, they’re going to pay a lot less because they’re going to have to replace all of what was in the owner’s head.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sort of that tribal knowledge.

David Shavzin: Yeah. Yeah. If the owner’s doing payroll and the only one who can fix the machine on the factory floor and all of that there, they don’t have a good, sellable business.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s something very, uh, it’s important to consider, particularly if you’re even thinking about selling your business. And I think there’s a big takeaway today of simply understanding that. However. However soon you plan on doing it, you should consider preparing a lot sooner.

David Shavzin: Yeah. Honestly, I say they should have started when they opened the doors of the company. Think about what that end game is. But certainly now and not waiting. Um, exit planning is really just running your business. Well, at the end of the day.

Joshua Kornitsky: I, I support that decision or that that statement. But but let me ask you another question. Right. So the other or the the initial part that we talked about, uh, was M&A advisor. And let’s talk let’s mergers and acquisitions for anybody that doesn’t know. And we don’t shame folks that don’t know. We educate them. Um, tell us about that process and what people typically don’t understand about that, because I presume sometimes letting go of your business means either merging or being acquired. Um, so.

David Shavzin: Yeah, there’s, um, you know, there’s a few things that they don’t understand. Certainly it’s valuable, what we call transferable value, what somebody will pay for it. So there’s a lot of education there. Um, the length of time it takes. Shelly said, you know, average nine months, it can take a lot longer, potentially. Uh, you might get through 12 months and the deal may fall apart and you’re starting all over again. Um, they sometimes can get into a mindset because we’re in the middle of selling that. They can take their foot off the pedal and slow down, when in fact they need to keep cranking on growing that business. Um, and again, like I say, not a minor thing is what are they going to do afterwards? They don’t think about it. They may have 30 years to live after that. And that’s where you get some of that. 81% who are disappointed at the end is not necessarily they didn’t get enough money. They haven’t really prepared for another three decades.

Joshua Kornitsky: And do you try to educate them on that idea and maybe offer them a direction?

David Shavzin: Yeah, that’s one of the first things we ask. You know, we ask about, uh, what they think the value is, what their plans are. But then take a deep dive, you know, what have you planned out? And we’ll help them. Yeah, we’ll get them some guidance and or see what they might be doing, what the spouse might have planned. Get them if they aren’t involved in community work. Um, just anything that that can fill their days.

Joshua Kornitsky: Sounds very mission sounds very mission driven. That you really?

Speaker6: Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: It’s more than just a transactional event.

David Shavzin: It is. You know, like I say, I came out of a $20 billion company very different in terms of the transactions in these cases, with these companies that we play with in the lower mid-market. Their whole life and livelihood, uh, is tied to that company. And so we’re helping them get out of that and be set for the rest of their life. It’s pretty cool.

Joshua Kornitsky: It’s really cool. And as someone who works with entrepreneurial businesses, I. I know how rewarding it is when things start going in the right direction. And ideally, they they want to get to a point where they’re going to take an exit. And if that’s their goal, it’s nice to to know that they’re in good hands with folks that want to shepherd that process. But are there other ways to exit a business?

David Shavzin: Yeah, a great question. Again, if you know, if people have not been through it before, we tend to think of just that third party transaction. Here’s my company, here’s a check, you know, and we’re all good, Um, but when we start talking to owners about what they really what their goals really are. You know, for for post-sale, um, we dig in pretty deep, and there are other arrangements, so we help. We’ve helped companies merge, okay. To where the older of the two owners has a built in exit after a few years. It’s a great way to do it. Uh, takes it doesn’t necessarily bring the, um, comp to, uh, to me, but that’s fine. That’s the best role for them. Uh, we’ve had clients sell to a customer of theirs. Really? Yeah. Interesting.

Joshua Kornitsky: You know, that’s kind of cool.

David Shavzin: It was. That one was kind of cool. It was actually a small software company, but the customer was using that software, and half of their sites ended up selling to a fortune 100 company. Uh, it was it was pretty interesting. Um, sometimes we’ll work with internal folks. It might be family, which adds a lot of interesting overlay. Uh, could be just another independent, you know, internal person. We’re actually working on one of those right now. Uh, sometimes we, you know, when the owners aren’t sure about timing, we might look to essentially hire a buyer, meaning higher end may be a general manager.

Joshua Kornitsky: Oh, I see.

David Shavzin: Spend some time, maybe a year or two, make sure there’s a fit. But that person might eventually, uh, be the buyer for, um, that, uh, that seller. Owner.

Joshua Kornitsky: So, yeah, a trial run.

David Shavzin: Trial it is. Yeah, yeah. Let’s see if there’s a fit to see if they like each other, to see if the the person can learn and enjoys the business and so on. Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: So typically when people come to you, do they know what they want to do or do you help steer them, not steer them? Do you help guide them so that they.

David Shavzin: Yeah, it’s guiding through that questioning process of their goal. So like I say, most of them assume it’s going to just be a typical sale. And it might be but but there’s other options depending on what they want to do.

Joshua Kornitsky: Is there really such thing as a typical sale?

David Shavzin: Uh, no. Good question.

Joshua Kornitsky: But, um. Go ahead. I’m sorry.

Speaker7: No, no, no, but, you know, to a.

David Shavzin: Third party to, uh, sure. Is that what people think of typically.

Joshua Kornitsky: So let me ask you, David, what size companies do you usually work with?

David Shavzin: So we’re usually in that 5 to $25 million from a revenue perspective. Um, and value might be along those same lines. Each industry has a little bit different, uh, valuation profile.

Joshua Kornitsky: Fair enough. And I guess let me ask you this. Um, any advice for somebody who’s an owner, who’s who’s thinking about taking that eventual exit?

David Shavzin: Get some help and advice. Uh, start planning even if you don’t do anything yet. Learn about, like we talked about. Learn what business value really is. Understand what the sale process is going to look like. And and just don’t do it alone. Get get the team around you that who’ve been through it before, who can work together and collaborate and really communicate on your behalf. But, boy, um, it’s this is going to be the biggest transaction of their life. Most likely. Sure. It’s going to determine how their retirement is for them and their family. Their their employees are involved. Their employees families are involved. If there’s not a successful transaction. So there’s a thousand other reasons to get get the right team of advisors.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, it sounds like it impacts a whole lot of people, not just the employees, but the employees and their families and the owners and their families and the vendors and everybody else, never mind the customers. So that’s that’s a big impact for making a decision like that. Do, do people sometimes, um, what’s the word like stutter in this process where where they sort of stall out? We’re not with you if they’re trying to do this on their own, is it? It seems like there’s a big opportunity for analysis paralysis where there’s Shelley talked about the financials. You’re talking about sort of knowing where they’re going.

David Shavzin: Yeah. And that that. So I would say that’s a whole when we talk about how long it takes. Right. And I think, um, that the nine months is really more of when you’re ready to go, that kind of thing.

Joshua Kornitsky: Nine months from not from start, but from being prepared.

David Shavzin: Yeah. And so if we walk into a company cold to start to sell, it can be depending on the state of the data in the company and so on. It could take three months, four months maybe to get ready. Now that can get a lot shorter if they’re keeping the right records and books and they know what’s in their business and we can access information very quickly. But there’s a whole preparation period again. Go back to the house. Right. Right. Mow the lawn, paint the house, redo the kitchen. And it’s the same kind of thing. It’s going to take some time just to get ready for that.

Joshua Kornitsky: And and that sounds like a fantastic sort of closing thought, right? That it takes time to get ready. And it’s just like anything else in life house analogy, car analogy, or any analogy you choose to make that if you want to get it right, you got to be prepared.

David Shavzin: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s fantastic. Well, again, we will share all your information on our site. What’s the easiest way for for folks to get Ahold of you?

David Shavzin: The phone is (770) 329-5224. The email address is David at. Get on the value tracker.

Joshua Kornitsky: Com nice. That’s really easy to remember. Um David Samson um again the the exit guy and the M&A advisor and the founder of the value track. Thank you for really sharing the the insight that you have in regards to the process from both sides and the guidance that you’re offering to your potential clients. Uh, that’s that’s something I think probably gets overlooked in a lot of industries, is sort of the impact of the outcome. Uh, so thank you. Uh, I want to thank all my guests again with starting with David Chazan, but also Amy Robinson. I appreciate you being here. From Intrinsic Air Advisors.

Amy Robinson: Thank you so much for having me, Joshua.

Joshua Kornitsky: And Shelly Gibson, uh, business broker with Transworld. I didn’t have my notes in front of me, and I’m forgetting the name. And I do this every week. That’s the main.

Shelly Gibson: Word. Transworld is the main word.

Joshua Kornitsky: Business with Transworld Business Advisors. Forgive me, Shelly, I hope you can, because if I don’t make at least one mistake, I don’t learn anything for next week.

Shelly Gibson: I like that.

Joshua Kornitsky: Thank you all for for giving your time to today and for helping the folks that all of you help. Um, I’m your host, professional iOS implementer, Joshua Kornitsky. This has been Cherokee Business Radio. Can’t wait to see you again. Thank you for being here.

 

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