(00:00:02) Commentators: Hey, I’m Paul Perry. I’m Kim Hartsock, and you’re listening to the Wrap, a Warren Averett podcast for business leaders designed to help you access vital business information and trends when you need it. So, you can listen, learn and then get on with your day. Now let’s get down to business.

(00:00:21) Kim Hartsock: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Wrap.

(00:00:24) Paul Perry: Today, we’re going to be talking with our own Jessica Juliano on recruiting and what businesses need to know about when they’re searching for the candidates. We’re so happy to have Jessica with us.

(00:00:33) Kim Hartsock: That’s right, Paul. And in episode 51, we discussed with David Salters in detail about the great resignation and recruiting trends and all of that. But this one’s going to be a little bit more detailed, right, Paul?

(00:00:47) Paul Perry: Yeah, that’s right. We’re going to talk about businesses in more of a micro perspective, right? Not just the whole war on talent, but what the businesses need to be doing when they are searching for people and what are the best ways to do that? And like we said, we’ve got Jessica Juliano here. Jessica, it’s a pleasure to have you with us today.

(00:01:03) Jessica Juliano: Thanks, Paul. Thank you for having me. I am Jessica Juliano, and I started my career in public accounting as a senior auditor for a national firm. I joined Warren Averett almost 10 years ago and our solutions consulting practice for Warren Averett Staffing & Recruiting. I’m currently a Senior Recruiter and Client Manager. I specialize in doing executive search for our industry clients, not just internal recruiting for the firm, but doing industry recruiting for finance and accounting.

(00:01:40) Kim Hartsock: So, yeah, Jessica, we look forward to hearing from you and just hearing more about if I’m searching for someone, how do I even get the right candidates in my inbox and who do I need to work with? How do I find those people? All I hear from people is there is no unemployment. Everyone has a job. So, no one’s looking for a job. No one’s seeking that. But you’re here to tell us that maybe that’s not all true and what the trends are telling you as far as how we can search for those candidates.

(00:02:09) Jessica Juliano: That’s right. And I mean, you can see all the articles in the news talking about the great resignation, the great, you know they love using terms on talent trends. At the end of the day, what companies need to know is how you can find the right candidates. It’s all in the resources that you’re investing in and how you’re viewing the individuals that you’re trying to hire. So, you know, it takes an entire team. If you don’t have a team in-house, then you want to utilize external resources. You want to make sure that you’re not putting all your eggs in one basket. And at this point, depending on the type of talent you’re looking for, you really need a trusted advisor. You need trusted advisers to guide you on what the actual trends are in your area, in your industry and the types of talent that you’re going to be needing for the future. So that’s a good summary of how I would approach, “How do you find the right candidates?”

(00:03:15) Paul Perry: People listening to this that have hired for years, but for their company, you know, like we’ve said with most every other topic we’ve done on The Wrap: it’s not the same way it was. It’s not the same way it was 10 years ago, right? People aren’t just going to come looking for you. So, what specifics? What actionables would you give folks listening to this? You know, how do you hunt for the talent in today’s market, today and everything that’s going on?

(00:03:47) Jessica Juliano: I mean, you’re right. Having been a hunter of talent for almost 10 years now, I can tell you it’s different than yesterday. It’s ever-evolving. The first thing is to recognize is that what you’ve done in the past (whether it was 10 years ago, five years ago, last week) is going to be different tomorrow. You want to have a true talent strategy and be able to be agile, be very flexible to be able to capture the talent and capture the capital investment in the resources that you’re using. Whether it’s an in-house team that you’re paying year-round, the resources that they must post ads, things like that. Then, the external resources, external specialized recruiters. You want to establish a good rapport and relationship with them. Send them more information than just a job description because you can do that by just posting on a computer. So, you can get more out of your external resources than you probably have had in the past if you have a moment to really let them be a partner with you.

(00:05:01) Kim Hartsock: If I want to work with somebody, if I feel like, ok, I’m not going to be able just to sit in my office and place an ad and everybody is going to come to me like in the glory days of putting out a job description. And I want to work with somebody. What are the things that I need to look for if I’m trying to hire that trusted adviser to partner with me?

(00:05:28) Jessica Juliano: You know, that’s a good question. There are people that – whether it’s your auditors, whether it’s your bankers, your lawyers – every single company has had exposure to recruiters. So, I would reach out to your trusted adviser network and say, “Have you used anyone successfully that you recommend?” Once you get a couple of names of companies that you have been recommended, I would have a detailed meeting with them where you get to ask them: “Why should I choose you? What do you do differently than my internal in-house recruiting team that will help you find the talent better than they can?”

What they should tell you is that we meet each person live or virtually. We reach out to them directly. We do not rely solely on ads. We will ask them questions like: What is your walk away money? Meaning you won’t accept a counteroffer; you will walk away. If I give you this offer right now, that’s what you need to leave your current job. Ask them why they’re wanting to make a move. Why did they respond to the recruiter? You know, that’s reason for consideration is something that I think is an important piece of the puzzle as to why a recruiter presents a talent. And then also, why did the person respond? There’s always a reason besides money. Those are questions you want to be able to partner with the referral source the recruiters that you’re going to be talking to and make sure you make a good order so that they can deliver what you’re needing.

(00:07:09) Paul Perry: So, Jessica, what are some of the other resources people should be using? You know, how are companies finding the talent and then once they do find the talent, what is it they should be doing as next steps?

(00:07:21) Jessica Juliano: The resources that I would recommend and sure, the prices for all these resources are going up. So, you just need to recognize that it will cost. There are going to be costs associated with finding talent. If you only place free ads and sit back and post on your own website, not only will the talent that applies potentially get lost in the shuffle, but it’s a full-time job to filter through all the unqualified talent. That’s a big part, so using your resources as efficiently as possible is just as important as picking your resources. LinkedIn is a reputable resource, and then, like I said, external recruiters are another resource I would recommend. Of those resources, taking a hands-on approach to each of them and not sitting back is in your best interest so that you get the biggest return for the money that you’ve invested.

(00:08:19) Kim Hartsock: What are the best opportunities to find the talent that I really want to hire, right? I don’t just want to fill a position. I’m looking for a specific job and I need the right person to fill this job. What are the best opportunities for me to do that?

(00:08:37) Jessica Juliano: The best way is to identify a specialized recruiter. You want to know when you essentially interview your recruiter, get their information, and say, “How many placements have you made that are similar to this experience?” Like, I need someone that can be an IT director. I need someone who can be an accounting manager with SEC reporting. You want to be specific and hear from them what placements have they made in the last 24 months. Have you placed somebody with these skill sets? If you have not, what are you and your recruiter going to do to find them? Their response should be we have the tools that we pay year-round to headhunt, go reach out to talent, pose the opportunity, get responses from them and then follow them through the recruiting cycle. So, the best opportunity for you is to ensure that you provided the required skills. There may be some preferred skills, but you want to make sure it’s very clear that they must have this experience. We cannot train them on this. They need to come in and hit the ground running.

If it’s a lower-level position or it’s something that’s new to your organization, tell the recruiter, “We have someone who is going to mentor and take this person under their wing, but we’d like for them to have a certain background that will set them up for success.” I tell candidates on the other side all the time, you want to be set up for success. If the company has communicated how that can be possible, you will have a better chance of tempting that talent to leave a situation where maybe they’ve hit the glass ceiling. Maybe, they are in a situation where they see the writing on the wall, looks like the company may get sold or merged and there’s going to be a mix-up in culture. They’re primed and ready to make a very smart move for their career. The best opportunity to find the talent is to communicate why you have a good opportunity for talent.

(00:10:56) Commentators: Want to receive a monthly newsletter with The Wrap topics? Then, head on over to warrenaverett.com/TheWrap and subscribe to our email list to have it delivered right to your inbox. Now back to the show.

(00:11:09) Paul Perry: A follow up question on that, Jessica. Because you’re not the only company that they’re recruiting for: How do you distinguish yourself between the other companies that they’re also recruiting for the same position, right? That’s got to be something that comes into the conversation. When somebody is thinking about, “Hey, I’m using a recruiter, I have to know that they’re also recruiting for other people. So how do I set myself apart as a company?” That’s probably something you deal with on a regular basis.

(00:11:37) Jessica Juliano: Absolutely. You know, a lot of things that have come up recently is the work from home, the hybrid schedules, the what type of flexible culture work arrangements have you made that allow people to separate work and life, but also be able to get done – not just their job – but get their home life? Taking care of that has become a very important part. We heard for years, “You know, the millennials, they love flexibility, they’re more interested in their extracurricular activities and their nonprofit work and things like that.” COVID switched it up for everyone. There is no group that is exempt from the transition that we made due to COVID. I think that for companies, they need to recognize that if they can’t make any type of flexible schedules or arrangements, what can you do? What can you offer your people so that they know that you mean more than just the bottom line? Right? So, whether it’s “Yes, we’re in the office, but every third Friday, we take off” or whatever it happens to be that you can give: what’s the give and take?

(00:12:56) Kim Hartsock: I know that companies like ours, there are seasons where we’re busier than others, right? And there are seasons of recruiting. Typically, there’s a season where we’re hunting for new talent, there’s a season where we’re onboarding and then, there’s a season when our people are busy, right? So how do you deal with that? How do you deal if there’s a seasonality where there’s a schedule of trying to fit candidates in during those times?

(00:13:25) Jessica Juliano: You know, I think that based on the industry and based on the type of talent you’re looking for – whether it’s public accountants or if you are in the governmental sectors – you know you’ve got certain requirements. Publicly traded companies, you are not going to probably need or want to hire at quarter end or at year end. But you must be flexible. And I think the virtual meetings have really helped companies expedite the interview process. What you want to do is regardless of the season, you must decide so that you can capture the talent when they’re available. And the best way to do that is to have it – whether it’s Zoom or team interviews – get those interviews going as quickly as possible. Have max people to interview, make sure you feel like you have met the person. But at the end of the day, they may have three offers on the table. After three weeks, they’ll be gone. So regardless of the seasonality of the talent, you want to schedule that as soon as the talent is in your inbox. You want to meet them as quickly as you can and go through your necessary vetting process so that you know that you did everything you could to get them through the door.

(00:14:46) Paul Perry: Jessica, you’ve talked a little bit about specialized recruiters. Is there any specific information people should know about specialized recruiting? You know, if they’re going to get some help in that area?

(00:14:56) Jessica Juliano: Yeah. When you do meet with the recruiter, ask about their recruiting team. If you’re in a certain area, ask if the recruiters have experience recruiting and whatever vertical you’re going to be hiring in – like IT or accounting – whatever the specialization you’re looking for… Ask them what their record of success is. If the recruiter has made a couple of placements in the last 6 months, where they are successful, did they stay in those positions? You want to know that you’re talking to someone that isn’t just going to post an ad and then send you predominantly unemployed candidates, and that’s an indicator.

If you see candidates that are already in transition, more likely than not, those candidates came from a posted ad. To ensure that you’re getting talent that is passive, that is open to having a conversation, but not necessarily looking: those are specialized. Recruiters are equipped to start conversations and engage talent that may not necessarily be unhappy in their job but are trained to talk to people and tempt them to have a conversation with you and thus gets them down the line to ultimately an interview.

(00:16:24) Paul Perry: When we were planning this discussion, we talked a little bit about recruiting use of AI. I’m always going to bring up something technology-related in a lot of our conversations. We could probably do a whole session on just the AI piece of anything. But that’s probably another question you have to ask your recruiters because… if I’m going to hire you, is it actually you and your people that are meeting with folks or are you relying too much on technology and AI. We could talk about the bias that’s sitting in AI or we could talk about any failure of AI in the last 10years and say that’s a reason not to use it now. Can it help? To some extent, maybe, but it’s not what you want to be relying on somebody for. Can you speak to that aspect of it? Because, if I’m in a business and I’m going to use an outside recruiter and I’ve got two in hand… One is substantially higher than the other, right? I don’t need to ask, why are they so high? I probably need to ask, “Why are you so low?” Does that make sense and talk about a little bit quickly on how do you know when somebody is only using AI? Maybe that goes back to your answer a moment ago, but just talk about AI and recruiting a little bit now.

(00:17:47) Jessica Juliano: Talk about AI, for years I have read, or I’ve heard podcasts on how AI is going to take over recruiting and you’re not going to need recruiters. I think one of the things that I’ve learned is that the computer cannot take away the hands-on human conversation. You can have people that apply to an application and aren’t really looking… you can reach out to them and ask them for an interview, and they say, “Well, I just put my information out there just to see just to see if y’all would bite.” The computer cannot vet someone out from wasting your time versus a recruiter who will have multiple conversations with them and say, “OK, are you sure you’re interested in moving forward? Will you accept the counteroffer?” What AI and the computers do efficiently is value. You know, you’re going to get a hundred applicants for one staff accountant position. There may be eight people with an accounting degree of that100, and it may give you a result of 20 just because they have had some accounting-related skills because they’re scraping those skill sets. So, you still must go through those 20 applications that fit the keyword.

When you’re using a specialized recruiter, you should get no more than five qualified candidates that are fully vetted. So, the amount of time that it took an internal team to go through and filter through all the filtered AI applications: it’s a time value of money. It boils down to that at the end of the day, you can get a lot of volume with AI, but you’ll get more targeted, time-efficient talent through a more specialized resource like a recruiter.

(00:19:40) Kim Hartsock: Jessica, here on The Wrap, we always love to end with a wrap up in 60 seconds or less. What information do you want to leave our listeners with in regard to specific trends on searching for the right talent?

(00:19:55) Jessica Juliano: Now, I would tell anybody looking to recruit talent to their company: it’s not impossible. You can set yourself up for success and the way to do that is: you want to work with resources. You want to work with recruiters that don’t just simply comb job boards, LinkedIn and social media posts without digging a little deeper and getting to know the talent that they’re presenting. You know, it’s competitive out there. Those tactics won’t get you very far when you’re just posting jobs and you just attempt to attract talent independently, they’re not going to come. It’s not as if you build it, they will come. But expert recruiters know candidates in real life. It’s not just this virtual job market.

They get to know the talent in your area with your specific industry experience, and it’s a personable, meaningful approach that bridges the gap between the virtual and live experience. The three things I would do is look at your ads, see how long they’ve been posted. I would look at the quality of the talent that’s been sent to you. Are they mostly unemployed? That way, you will know whether those recruiters are using ads or not. Do you have all your eggs in one basket? If so,you may be limiting yourself, and it’s just like ordering in a restaurant: if you place your order and see that they deliver exactly what you’ve asked for, then you know you’ve done a good job of hiring the right person.

(00:21:23) Paul Perry: Jessica, it’s been a pleasure listening to you talk about this. I’m sure there are a lot of businesses out there beating their heads against the wall or scratching their heads every single day: How do I find the right talent? So, good, actionable items. We appreciate you being with us today.

(00:21:36) Jessica Juliano: No, this is great. Thank you for having me.

(00:21:38) Kim Hartsock: Great to see you, Jessica.

(00:21:41) Commentators: And that’s a wrap. If you’re enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on your streaming platform. To check out more episodes, subscribe to the podcast series or suggest other topics you want to hear: visit us at warrenaverett.com/the wrap.

(00:00:00) Commentators: I’m Kim Hartsock and you’re listening to The Wrap, a Warren Averett podcast for business leaders designed to help you access vital business information and trends when you need it. So, you can listen, learn and then get on with your day. Now let’s get down to business.

(00:00:17) Kim Hartsock: Hi, everyone.

(00:00:23) Paul Perry: Welcome to The Wrap. Today, we’re going to be talking about state and local tax or as we call it, SALT.

(00:00:27) Kim Hartsock: Yeah. Paul, the coronavirus certainly threw wrenches into the 2021 tax season, including giving all of us an extra month to file. 2022 tax season should be back to business as usual and here with us today to talk all things state and local tax is our very own Colleen Aldridge. Welcome back.

(00:00:46) Colleen Aldridge: Thanks, Kim and Paul. very much looking forward to discussing what’s going on in the state and local tax arena today.

(00:00:55) Kim Hartsock: And since you always refer to your practice as SALT, do people make salt and pepper jokes to you?

(00:01:00) Colleen Aldridge: All the time.

(00:01:03) Kim Hartsock: You’ve got to keep things fun and light around here. Can you just take a few minutes and introduce yourself to our listeners?

(00:01:08) Colleen Aldridge: I’m a Principal at Warren Averett, leading our State and Local Tax Group. I’ve been doing tax for over 25 years and particularly have a fondness for state and local tax. Because even when federal laws changed, state and local is a little slower to make the same changes. Plus, we’ve got 50+ jurisdictions to keep up with and it keeps life interesting. That’s for sure.

(00:01:30) Paul Perry: And as everyone knows by now, state tax deductions are limited on the federal returns. State legislators have been actively seeking to remedy this in the form of entity-level state filings.

(00:01:40) Colleen Aldridge: Paul, in terms of what you’re talking about with the state and local tax deductions being limited on the federal returns… As part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act a few years ago, there was a limitation put in that a taxpayer cannot deduct more than $10,000 in state and local taxes related to anything.

Property tax, income tax, withholding taxes, all that stuff is limited now on your federal return. So, in response in the last couple of years, over 20 states have enacted what we refer to as pass-through entity taxes. Those are elections that a business can make to have income taxed at the entity level and not be subject to tax at the owner level, thereby becoming a deduction to the entity and not to the individual.

It’s what’s called a workaround. That’s the common terminology we’re using these days, a workaround for that federal income tax limitation on state and local taxes. Who all does that impact? A pass-through entity in the tax world is generally defined as a partnership, an S corporation or an LLC.

This would be mainly for companies that are doing business in multiple states or have a significant presence in one state where they have a tremendous amount of income that’s being taxed, and that income would be limited on the federal income tax return of the owner if the owner were to pay the tax.

So, if you were not to make this election, basically what happens is the pass-through entity files the return, but the tax is not paid by the pass-through entity. It’s paid by the owner. Sometimes the states require the entities to make a payment on behalf of the owners, but it’s still deemed to be a payment by the owners at the end of the day, thereby flowing through to an individual or another type of member or partner return.

Now, under these pass-through entity elections, you can file. And these are all elections that have to be made by the owner. There are various requirements that have to be met in order to make those elections. If the entity makes the election and the tax return is filed by the pass-through entity and may or may not require a filing at the owner level, depending on the state methodology.

(00:04:15) Paul Perry: So, I guess when we’re talking to our listener base, you know, talk about maybe Georgia and Alabama and how that it plays out differently in those two states.

(00:04:25) Colleen Aldridge: Yes, definitely. Paul, this is especially relevant in Alabama and Georgia because both states have passive entity elections and they are going into effect very shortly.

Alabama is actually effective for the tax years beginning on or after 1/1/21. So returns that are getting ready to be filed for a pass-through entity, generally, they already needed to make that consideration last year because estimated payments were required. But actually, the mechanics of the election have to be done this year.

The first return is being filed this year in Alabama. For Georgia, the election won’t be effective until tax year 2022. What that means, however, is that again, Georgia is going to require estimated payments to be made in advance of the actual filing of the return. Most entities will have to evaluate in the coming six months or so to make sure that payments are being made accordingly in terms of that.

When we talk about making the election, there’s a tremendous number of considerations that have to be taken into account as to whether or not it’s the right answer for a given pass-through entity.

(00:05:46) Kim Hartsock: Now, can you explain a little about what those are?

(00:05:48) Colleen Aldridge: In general, there are two separate methodologies a state can use.

The first methodology is that a state would tax the pass-through entity and then the owners can subtract or exclude that pass-through entity income from their individual income tax return in that state. If you don’t have any income to pass through any other income in that state, you may not be required to file a return because the entity already took care of that filing.

In the other scenario, it’s a little more complicated because in the past, the entity that files the return pays the tax. The owners would still need to include their share of the distributed income from the partnership in that state. But then, they would be allowed a whole or a partial credit for the amount paid by the entity on their behalf.

That can get very complicated when we’ve got a scenario like this where an entity is making a pass-through election in say the state of Alabama, but one of the owners of the entity is in the state of North Carolina. Would North Carolina allow them a credit for the tax paid on the Alabama return on their North Carolina return?

Even though there are over 20 states that have these elections, there’s still a tremendous amount of unknowns out there. States are still trying to figure out the mechanics of this, how it’s going to work, who it’s negatively impacting and who it’s positively impacting. It’s super important for companies that think this might be something they want to look into to contact their tax professional as soon as possible to evaluate their individual situation, what other activity they have in terms of other investments, other residences, things like that, and make sure that it’s the right election.

Some elections are going to be irrelevant. Once you make the election, you’re stuck until you elect out of it. Other elections are going to be on a year-by-year basis, but I anticipate most of those elections will have to be made with the originally filed return.

(00:08:02) Kim Hartsock: So, all that’s really good information and certainly helpful as some of this is coming into effect right now. As people are preparing their tax returns, the past couple of years have been really hot markets for mergers and acquisitions and each year seems to be growing and it doesn’t seem like that’s going to let up at any time soon, but what are you seeing with M&A activity as it relates to your SALT practice?

(00:08:26) Colleen Aldridge: Great question, Kim. I’ve had several large projects that I’m working on with companies where they’ve had sales and use tax obligations over $500,000 in liability because they didn’t keep up with their filings prior to the acquisition and there was time-sensitivity to getting that acquisition done.

But I think most of my advice at this point would be focused on the post-acquisition scenario and the things to be thinking about pre-acquisition, as it pertains to post-acquisition activity. Most companies call it a hundred-day plan or some type of post-integration plan that they use to say who’s going to be responsible for what, who’s going to do what, when is it going to be done and how are we going to get through these first 100 days as a combined entity?

The one thing regarding transaction taxes is those never stop. There are deadlines generally every month. There are sales tax deadlines. Every month, there are withholding filings that need to be done.

There are property tax filings that need to be done and it’s very important to figure out who is going to file those immediately after the transaction. How is it going to be handled? How are checks going to be processed? How has our EFT been done? Have we combined the bank accounts? Have we changed mailing addresses?

Things like that are super important to make sure that there’s a continuity there. Things like putting a general email address that says AP invoices or something instead. A person being designated to receive notices are creating a PO box for all the notices to be sent to, to make sure that things aren’t getting missed, because it’s so much harder to deal with after garnishments and assessments and things like that fall into place because something’s slipped through the cracks because somebody is no longer there or responsibilities have changed.

(00:10:28) Commentators: If you want to receive a monthly newsletter with The Wrap, then head on over to warrenaverett.com/the-wrap and subscribe to our email list to have it delivered right to you. Now, back to the show.

(00:10:41) Paul Perry: What if you are undergoing an asset sale and you have sales tax exemptions from your customers that apply to the items they’re purchasing?

(00:10:47) Colleen Aldridge: You’re going to have to obtain all the sales tax exemption certificates from your customers in the name of the new entity that’s making the sale. How are you going to handle that in your system until you get those new certificates? The last thing in the world anybody wants is to upset the flow of their customers any more than it’s already being upset.

And if a company starts charging sales tax on something that historically has been exempt, that’s just one more aggravation that your customers don’t want to have to deal with. So, making a plan as to how you’re going to get those sales tax exemption certificates updated is super important. And what’s your transition plan?

Are you going to just go ahead and allow that exemption and allow 60 days for your customers to provide you with a new exemption certificate? Or are you going to try to get those before the transaction, which is even harder because many times it’s confidential.

Just having a plan as to how that’s going to take place: do you need outside help to accomplish that and do you have a system for storing these exemptions certificates? It’s a good time to think through all of your exemptions certificate procedures in-house and tighten up any internal controls that need to be tightened in that account.

The last thing that I’m seeing is that when you have an acquisition, sometimes there’s just economies that are afforded by offering similar products or similar services.

Maybe you’re reducing your sales force or you’re increasing your sales force and product offerings and making sure that from a sales tax perspective, you’ve looked at how those product offerings have changed. What’s taxable and what’s not, and from a nexus standpoint, re-evaluating your nexus and how that has changed.

(00:12:38) Kim Hartsock: Do you have any examples or any clients that you’ve helped that might be in a similar position?

(00:12:41) Colleen Aldridge: In one case and a company I’m helping right now, they have made a substantial number of changes after their acquisition. They’ve consolidated payroll, and now they’re breaking payroll back out and so they are just trying to figure out where they have a taxable presence and where they need to be filing and then closing the accounts for the entities.

There are things that don’t need to be filed anymore to reduce the amount of notices coming in and the confusion at the state level. I think those are probably the three things that I’m seeing most often that are creating the most headaches and frustration for taxpayers and clients that could be remedied with a little bit more forethought and attention paid on the front end in anticipation. Your team that’s in place now may not be the team that’s in place two months from now to help through the transition and determining what sort of temporary resources you might need to accomplish that.

(00:13:39) Paul Perry: It’s interesting that you mentioned the hundred-day plan. I believe in some of our past podcasts, when we’ve talked to our friends, David Legrand and Hanny Akl on the M&A space, they always talk about setting that plan in place. We’ve heard it a couple times and that really seems to be an important thing that maybe people miss when they’re getting into a transaction is that all they’re thinking about is the transaction itself and not everything that comes before and after.

I think that’s really good advice on creating a hundred-day plan as it relates to this, the state and local tax and trying to prepare for what is to come and maybe what falls through the cracks during that. So good advice there.

(00:14:19) Kim Hartsock: What should we be on the lookout for when it comes to state and local tax? What’s coming up next?

(00:14:22) Colleen Aldridge: The winter and spring season is packed with legislative sessions going on. As we know, the economy has taken a hit related to COVID and the prior few years. Many states are looking for ways to increase revenue from everyday transactions.

One of those ways is looking at transaction taxes, like sales and use tax, which historically are based on the sales of tangible personal property. Not necessarily taxation of services or electronic transactions, but what I’m hearing from colleagues in this space is that we’re expecting to see an expansion of the sales tax base.

What sales tax is imposed on, we’re starting to see expansions in that base. And that started a little bit last year with Maryland attempting to tax digital goods and it’s generally considered to be in limbo at this point. There are several large companies that have already started filing legal filings to stop the imposition of this law.

It’s generally anticipated that these are going to be very broad based taxes, in terms of what’s included in the taxable base. And my personal client base involves a tremendous amount of technology companies and our client base is affirming clues. I think this is going to be particularly relevant for a lot of our clients to stay on top of: where are they doing business; what’s the state definition of digital goods; does it include more the songs, the videos?

Are we talking about software as a service infrastructure, as a service platform, as a service, and then our non-fungible stuff and transactions like that?

How far is this going to go? And even to that extent, one of the things that becomes a real issue with digital transactions is how much information do I have about my customer? One of the clients that I’m helping right now, we didn’t have anything more than an IP address to work with in terms of where these things were being sold.

So, we worked backwards from the IP address to obtain a city, state and ZIP Code related to that IP address. But even then, there are some real limitations regarding the taxation of this, how that would even be affected and what our clients have to do to obtain the proper information for state sourcing, taxability and things like that.

I think this is really going to turn technology companies on their heads and they’re already struggling to grapple with things like the Wayfair rules that came into place three years ago with regard to nexus for economic threshold transactions.

(00:17:16) Paul Perry: Those vague laws are really hard sometimes to wrap your head around and you really got to make a spreadsheet and say here’s where I’m doing business and here’s what it is for this state, because you can’t rely on state per state. We see that on the cybersecurity side a lot with breach notification laws, right? There are never two that are alike. And some just say you have to have security measures in place and they don’t tell you what that is.

It really becomes an effort to get down and actually write on paper. Okay: here’s the nine states I work in, where I sell in and here’s what their law says from a digital goods perspective. One thing may be taxed here, but it may not be taxed there. So that is a piece that people need to prepare for when they start getting into that.

I’ve seen some companies out there just say, “Hey, we’re not going to sell to anybody in this state. It’s too stringent for us, and we don’t want to spend all the time preparing for that.” So, I’m sure that there are some of those states that are out there that people just go, “Oh, I don’t really like working there.”

You talk about IP addresses. I may be using an IP address for Spectrum in my home state, but it may get routed somewhere else. And so, does that IP address cross another state? That really becomes an issue for me so I can definitely see the issues there.

(00:18:33) Colleen Aldridge: Yes. I expect that as legislative sessions end in April, May and June, we’ll have a lot more clarity on what direction these types of efforts are going to go and which taxpayers are going to be most affected by that.

But it is something that we’re keeping an eye on and we’ll be back with more updates if we anticipate that this is going to be the year. But I think that it’s just being aware that this is out there. Because many times, you may be able to impact where you do business, but a lot of cases, if you’re dealing with individuals and digital download songs, I can’t pick and choose what state that person lives in.

It gets really complicated and really difficult, especially for growing companies where it’s very hard to be a hundred percent compliant and making money at the same time.

(00:19:28) Kim Hartsock: So, Colleen, here on The Wrap, we always ask our guests to wrap it up in 60 seconds or less. What would you like to leave listeners with today in regard to state and local tax?

(00:19:36) Colleen Aldridge: There’s not really anything specific to state and local tax that doesn’t apply to any tax and that’s planning. The best you can do is to plan ahead with these pass-through entity elections. It’s being aware of where you’re doing business, where you have other business activities as an owner and talking to your tax professionals to figure out how it impacts you as these elections come into play.

Then again, in terms of M&A, it’s the same thing. It’s planning, it’s being aware of the fact that there are rapidly approaching deadlines all the time when it comes to transaction taxes and it’s something that you can’t ignore. Otherwise, it turns into a storm of unwanted activity in terms of notices and garnishments and payments and things like that.

So being prepared and just being aware that deadlines and resources are never the same post-transaction as they are pre-transaction with respect to the digital taxes. I think that’s going to be a thing to look for if this is of particular interest to your business or you think it would, you’re curious as to how it would impact your business.

We’re happy to have a conversation on whether it may happen. And then again, look for future publications from the firm on how this might impact the tax basis of each and how we’re seeing digital goods be defined in these emerging laws.

(00:21:01) Paul Perry: I’m sure that those laws will constantly change and so there’s a constant need to update what they consider. And I guess once they see, you know, everybody makes a law and then people find a way around it. And that’s why there are updates to the laws, right? Because somebody forgot about NFTs or they forgot about something else that people say, “Oh, I need to tax that and we need to make money.”

Colleen, always a pleasure. Thank you for being back with us to talk about state and local tax.

(00:21:28) Kim Hartsock: Colleen, thanks so much for being with us today.

(00:21:29) Colleen Aldridge: Thank you. I appreciate everybody’s time and happy to help any way I can.

(00:21:36) Commentators: And that’s a wrap. If you’re enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on your streaming platform. To check out more episodes, subscribe to the podcast or make a suggestion of other topics you want to hear. Visit us at warreaverett.com/the-wrap.

Commentators: (00:00:03) Hey, I’m Paul Perry, and I’m Kim Hartsock, and you’re listening to The Wrap, a Warren Averett podcast for business leaders designed to help you access vital business information and trends when you need it so you can listen, learn and then get on with your day. Now, let’s get down to business.

Kim Hartsock: (00:00:17) Hi, everyone, and welcome to The Wrap. In this episode, we are talking about something that I know every one of our listeners has an interest in: employee retention trends.

Paul Perry: (00:00:33) Kim, you know, to really understand employee retention and how to implement it, we really have to look at the data and see why employees are quitting.

Kim Hartsock: (00:00:40) Yeah. The great news for us, Paul, is that the new data actually just came out this morning. So that’s good and helpful for our conversation. We have our very own David Salters with us today. So welcome back, David. You might be holding the record for the most times on this podcast.

David Salters: (00:01:01) Well, that’s a distinguished honor, and the privilege is all mine. It’s very good to be back with the two of you.

Kim Hartsock: (00:01:07) We’re excited to have you. Can you take just a few minutes and introduce yourself to our listeners?

David Salters: (00:01:11) Sure. Again, my name is David Salters and I’m the Service Area Leader for Warren Averett’s HR Solutions Group, and what we do is we help clients attract and retain talent. We also help them in HR consulting with issues much like what we’ll speak about today, compensation retention policies. We’ve been very busy as of late, especially the past two years. It has been a brand-new world with helping clients attract talent and retain talent because they’re facing some really unique challenges differently than ever before.

Paul Perry: (00:01:49) David, the December jobs report reported several things that I just want to point out, and I know that the new one dropped today. But, I just want to compare December to what dropped for January. So non-farm payrolls rose by 199,000 in December, obviously far fewer than the estimate of 402,000.

Unemployment rate dropped to 3.9%, which is obviously better than the 4.1% that was estimated. Wages increased more than expected, rising about 4.7% year over year. One of the biggest industries that had the largest gains was leisure and hospitality. I’m interested to see how December compares to January and interested to see what the new data says.

David Salters: (00:02:32) Paul, the December jobs report indicated what has been a trend for the entire year: a volatile job market with peaks and valleys, very extreme ebbs and flows in jobs added. The unemployment rate continues to hover somewhere around the 4% rate. But really, there’s two key metrics in the jobs report that I think are most important to us and our clients, which is the quit rate and the labor participation rate. And in summary, the labor participation rate is the civilian workforce who chooses to go to work and be active in this workforce. We are still about four million employees shy of the pre-pandemic days. So, during the shutdown and beyond, about four million people decided: “I am not going to participate in the workforce.” We’ll talk about those reasons a little bit later in the discussion.

The other is the quit rate, and that’s another data point that the BLS tracks. Ironically, in December, it marked the sixth consecutive month that more than four million people voluntarily quit their jobs. That’s an all-time high at that rate. Meanwhile, we’re facing a historically high number of job postings. So, there’s a delta between jobs posted and people quitting, and we’re all fishing from a pond with fewer fish because those four million people have removed themselves from the workforce, so it can be confusing.

Unemployment hovers between 3.9 to 4.1 percent. The real focus, though, is the movement of the workforce, all the quitting and changing jobs, which is affecting us and our clients—and then there’s how many people just we have not been able to attract back to the workforce.

Kim Hartsock: (00:04:34) So that’s a really good point, David. I know I get a lot of phone calls and questions from clients and colleagues that are just saying, “Why are so many people quitting? Why do we have these six months of consecutively, four million workers voluntarily quit their job and choose not to come back?” Can you shed some light on that?

David Salters: (00:04:56) Yeah, there are a few reasons, and this has been ongoing really since the shutdown. One of the primary reasons is what’s called a “pandemic epiphany.” If you can recall back, this seems like such a long time ago, but when we were truly in the deepest part of the shutdown, when we couldn’t even go to a restaurant and eat, people were really locked up at home, and it gave them time to think. They had maybe spent time with their family that they had not spent before they rid themselves of a commute.

And it gave them time to think, “Where does my career fit into my life? Where does this commute fit into my life? Where does money fit into my life?” Some people just exited with the participation rate, but others have decided that “I will only participate in this workforce if I have really, really good work that pays well.” And the only way I can put this, Kim, is they’re asking you as an employer, “What’s in it for me? What can you do for me? Because I have decided now that my life is more important than my career, or certainly, my career doesn’t define my life anymore.”

Kim Hartsock: (00:06:12) Yeah, and I heard it referred to recently as the “Great Resignation,” right? But that doesn’t really tell the story. What I heard was referring to it as the “Great Awakening,” and that really speaks to what you’re saying, which is that people have evaluated their priorities, and they’ve shifted. And so, as an owner, as an executive that is running a company, we have to be paying attention to that, right? So, if our employees say to us that money is not the most important thing right now, I’m changing my priorities.

We have to understand what that means and what, like you said, what’s in it for me. We need to know how to answer that question for our team members and be able to speak to them about what’s important to them and how that does fit into our company’s culture and vision and mission. I know we’ve spoken about this before, but you know, what would you say to an owner or an executive that’s facing that question, right? Like, where do I go from there?

David Salters: (00:07:18) I think evaluating whatever your process is for production—whether it be manufacturing or service—and evaluating if there is anything that I can rethink that would allow flexibility to bring on and attract and retain the people that I have?

For example, if you have had set shifts, is there a way to stagger some of that to attract people that you are not reaching? In those numbers with the labor participation rate, the number-one affected demographic is women, particularly mothers. And there’s a loss of trust in the school system, whether the schools stay in and how my child is engaging in education. A lot of mothers have just exited. They’re a big chunk of that four million people who are out. Well, is there anything possibly you could do to allow a schedule for a mom to either work remotely or even potentially come in later if it has to be on site? Think about that. There’s an untapped labor market now that has evolved through this that is waiting. And again, they’ve had this epiphany: “I’m not going to do it if it completely disrupts my home life.”

Can you do that? And I think so many of us, as business leaders, struggle with letting go the control of: “This is my process. This is my system. This is how I oversee people. This is how I ensure that work product is good.”

We just have to reevaluate. What can we do differently? Is it completely necessary to be as rigid as we were before? I also think some leaders are struggling with: “I would like to employ a more hybrid or remote workforce. I don’t know how. I struggle with what the cybersecurity issues are, what the labor law issues are, what the wage issues are. I want to, and it can be intimidating to admit that I don’t know how to do it.”

I think we can help them with that, getting over that hump. Meanwhile, you’re losing valuable talent to your competitors in the workplace as this paralysis stalls you. But be rethinking: what can we do to become more flexible if you’re not ready to be completely flexible workforce? Well, ease into that, but you have to reevaluate and ask yourself the hard questions. What can we change to accommodate the workforce? Because four million people a month is a staggering number of people who are leaving.

Kim Hartsock: (00:09:57) Yeah, and there’s some good examples. Like for me, just hearing that, right, like: flexible schedule? Yes. Work remote? Yes. But you know, moms that maybe want off during the summer but are happy to work during the school year, or maybe they work a part time flex schedule so that they’re working while their kids are at school, right? There’s a million of those scenarios.

Paul Perry: (00:10:17) And I also think, David, that when business owners are thinking to themselves, “Why is it that people do not want to come back in? Why? Why do I have to now adjust to hybrid or a remote?” And you’ve talked a little bit about culture. And I’ve even heard business owners say, you know, “I just want them to come back in. We did it right before the pandemic. Why do why do we have to go to this now hybrid approach?”

And I think the pandemic forced us to make hybrid work, and all the employees said,
“You know what? It now works. Why do I have to go back?” Right? So that’s that. I think that’s part of that mind shift that you’re talking about. I’d be interested to hear some of the companies who have gotten it right, some of the companies who have said, “You know what? This is how we’re going to do it,” and it’s been successful for them. Do you have any examples of those that you’ve either talked to folks about or seen over the last couple of months?

David Salters: (00:11:10) Yeah. Let me share some examples. We’re talking about retaining talent, but this this entire workforce is dynamic, so it’s also about acquiring talent. You know, we’re adding jobs at about six million a month. We’re losing people at about four million. So that’s a hectic pace, to say the least. But you know, there was one executive at CBS who likened the onboarding and hiring process to that of the pit crew of a race car and evaluating every piece of equipment on that vehicle. If it did not directly affect the production on the racetrack that day, it had to go. And so, several companies are moving in terms of speed.

The old saying, “time kills all deals,” that is very true in recruiting. We’ve seen some of these companies that are on the front lines. You saw leisure and hospitality as front gainers in the job market. Well, they have to move at a quick pace because there’s such a high demand for their employees. This would go for all of our clients who have any type of production or manufacturing facility. You need to move quickly. So, remove any unnecessary assessments, any unnecessary paperwork. I think Waste Management—some of us have heard some of their stories—they improved the application time from like 30 minutes to three minutes by reducing clutter.

Southwest Airlines is taking jobs that do not require so much sophistication and making on-the-spot offers instead of dragging out long interview processes. One thing on the front end for our more professional positions that we’ve really seen a big issue with is assessments. A lot of them are psychological assessments, and it literally reduces the potential workforce to a fraction of what’s out there. Meanwhile, this job market is moving at lightning pace, and the idea that really we could stop and be that choosy—

Some of those assessments are really great. They really do help prevent making a bad hire sometimes. But, I don’t think most of us are in a position to be that choosy at the rate things are moving. You certainly don’t want to throw caution to the wind completely, but if you include unnecessary assessments, long application processes, multiple interviews—

CVS, in one of their improvements, they started doing video interviews for anyone that was facing a client. So instead of bringing them back in and doing a face-to-face simulation, they just did that online. It saved tremendous amount of time, and they brought people on. That was some of the ways that some of these companies are speeding up the process. They help fill the gap in the beginning.

Paul Perry: (00:14:03) I’ve heard some people say that were looking for jobs. It’s like,
“Hey, if I give you my resume, why do I have to now go on this website and enter everything that’s now on my resume?” Right? You’re talking about: just streamline it, and ask for the information once, and then go from there, and just make it a lot easier.

David Salters: (00:14:22) That’s right.

Commentators: (00:14:23) If you want to receive a monthly newsletter with Wrap topics, then head on over to warrenaverett.com/thewrap and subscribe to our email list to have it delivered right to your inbox. Now, back to the show.

Kim Hartsock: (00:14:33) What about for clients if they’re really hiring it at a high level, right? They’re hiring a controller or a CFO or someone like that that really needs a specific expertise. And a question is, you know, why do I need a consultant, right? Why do I need a specialist? Why can’t I just post a job on a on an online board or send an email out to people letting them know? How has that changed in the last two years in a very different environment? Why would they need somebody for that focused of a search?

David Salters: (00:15:19) Think of it this way if you look at the number we just saw. So in January, there are 10.8 million job openings posted on Indeed. That’s 10.8 million people. How can your job be found there? How could you possibly stand out? Even if you were fortunate enough to have a qualified Controller who, let’s say, they had a bad day and they just went ahead and peeked on Indeed to see what would happen?

The idea that you would catch the perfect storm, that your job would hit that board at the same time that they look is a pretty finite opportunity there. Furthermore, any time someone posts a job on Indeed, it’s a bidding war. And you know, you post a job, someone is going to come behind you and post a job, and then they just fall down the page, and eventually they’re gone. Meanwhile, Indeed is raking in money through this.

People who have companies who have premium subscriptions can bid on those jobs. Not everyone knows that. So, people can buy higher space. But there’s no limit to that. If someone with really deep pockets decides to sponsor that job, there’s just no way you can keep up. So the Controller, for example, of all the Controller searches that we’re working on now, it takes a lot of production hours to search the databases and the information and the referral base that we have to find those individuals.

Once you find that individual, well, then it takes the time to tap into again, what’s in it for them? Is it the work/life flexibility, the compensation, the type of work? And you know, we have some searches ongoing where the Controller role is either hybrid or flexible. We have some that are not. They must be in-office. Just working through that, it takes so much more time and effort to locate someone who is willing to be on site 100% of the time and having those conversations.

Let’s think about that if you were posting an onsite-only Controller on Indeed. Your chances of getting what you want in that situation are absolutely miniscule because there’s going to be 10 more jobs where that job is flexible or hybrid. And so then again, that takes someone needing an advocate on your behalf to speak to these candidates to express why this job would be good for them.

Kim Hartsock: (00:18:03) Right. Goes back to the, “what’s in it for me.” So, you know, if you have all these demands but you’re not paying attention to what the candidate is interested in, it’s a mismatch.

Paul Perry: (00:18:15) David, what’s next? You know, like where are companies going? You know, is the government going to help any? What are some of the economists saying is next related to the job market? And, I know that’s a loaded question, because as we’ve seen in the past year or 18 months, they predict something and they’re way off, right? They’re not getting it right. What’s next from that perspective, in your opinion?

David Salters: (00:18:41) Well, most economists are predicting some type of slowdown with all the supply chain issues that just throttles down the manufacturing sector. Logistics—you know, there’s all types of issues with deliveries there. Obviously, labor shortages, you know. What wasn’t really reflected as much as I thought in the January numbers was just how much Omicron affected the talent market and how many days off were missed.

Economists fear a slowdown. The jobs report, while good, brought fears of interest rate adjustments. Things tend to be trending towards some type of slowdown. That said, with the employment market, there is really no end in sight. One piece of positive data that we saw—it was in the fourth quarter last year—the Wall Street Journal produced a chart, and it reflected how personal savings had grown over the past couple of years. So, if we’re at home, they’re getting government incentives. They weren’t spending as much money, and there became a point of inflection on the chart where government stimulus was stopping and the personal savings was declining, and that was going to lead more people to get back to work.

The idea was that the Christmas and holiday season would drain what’s left of that savings, and so people wouldn’t get back to work after the first of the year. Well, then Omicron hit, and people just delayed a little bit longer. Every time we think there’s a little uptick or something happening, we seem to get set back. And so, I would brace just for more of the same ebbs and flows, up and down, and continue to look at those two key metrics: the quit rate and the labor participation rate.

As long as those two numbers keep behaving like they are, then it’s more of the same. Companies who are seeking employees both to retain who they have and to attract new must understand that market. Tap into those behaviors, understand what’s in it for them, and try to find common ground. What’s in it for the employee that’s good for you? These things don’t have to be mutually exclusive, and it just takes a little time to think out: ok, what can we do here to satisfy the goals of our company and attract the talent?

Kim Hartsock: (00:21:07) Yeah. Owners and executives have got to make sure that their strategy is in alignment with their team. And we can’t do things same as we’ve always done, right? It’s a new day. The workforce has shifted, and if you are an owner that is not taking a look at your mission, values and all of those things, especially if you have struggled with retention, right, what is it that you can learn from that and say we need to make some changes here? If that’s surveying your team or having one-on-one conversations with coaches and employees—

But if you can’t answer the question to know what is important to my team, especially those A-players that you want to retain, then I think that you’re going to constantly be playing from behind. And I know we’ve seen statistics where the quitting is—sometimes people are leaving straight for money. They’re being motivated because they’re being offered a significant amount of money. But, the same percentage of people are leaving because they don’t feel like their job is in alignment with their values.

If you guess wrong, if you guess that they’re going to that, you want to retain them based on money, but they’re really being motivated by the alignment of their values, then you’re going to miss the mark and vice versa. You need to be having conversations and making sure that you know what’s in it for your team and what they’re looking for.

David Salters: (00:22:45) We spent several years from 2012 to 2020 talking a lot about employer branding. A lot of people spend a lot of time, money and effort on marketing. It seems sometimes that all the brands were the same, right? We want to have great place to work, good benefits, social impact, et cetera. And that quickly shifted after the pandemic.

You mentioned: “The company no longer aligns with my values.” And we spent all that time with an official employer brand—you know, what do we want to appear to the outside world? And I think the employee is saying: “You didn’t ask me what’s important to me.”

When they got that new opportunity, they were gone, and they felt disconnected from that identification of what are our values. Another stat on the reasons for leaving was burnout. This becomes a compounding issue. So, you have staff issues. Well, what about all of those who are left behind to carry the full load? And so, they become overworked. They’re exhausted. They see their peers getting remote jobs or better opportunities or flexible schedules. And it just weighs on that person. Right now, we may all can think of certain people or departments where that’s happening, and it should make you feel uneasy that this is unaddressed, that it’s going to continue to hurt your retention.

There’s an old saying that people don’t necessarily leave their employer, they leave their boss. Within that, there’s this middle management stress that occurs that I think some of our clients could address—investing in that middle manager. Below them, they have production goals, deadlines, they have employee management, they have staffing issues.

Above them, they’re reporting to executives. Their volunteer life at home is probably at a higher level than some other people. And in this day and age, they could easily be taking care of their parents and their children. And so, if you think of that in an hourglass shape—the squeeze of that middle manager—we need to be paying attention to those people and investing in them. They’re your front-line cheerleaders for recruiting. They will influence who stays and goes more than anyone at your company. Safeguarding, investing and developing those people will help stymie some of this turnover that that some of us are experiencing.

If you think about a production manager, this poor soul probably gets up every morning and checks their phone to see how many people called in sick, how many people quit today, how many raw materials I did not get in today. Now, they go solve that puzzle. That’s a lot every day for those individuals to deal with.

Paul Perry: (00:25:47) Culture eats strategy or brand for lunch, right? We’ve heard that so many times. We’ve said it so many times, but I think that if you can start to fix the culture, then you can start to make headway into trying to solve all the other problems.

So here on the Wrap, we like to wrap it up in 60 seconds. David, what would you leave our listeners with on attracting and retaining the talent that you want in this uncertain, uneasy, uncomfortable market?

David Salters: (00:26:13) Don’t be afraid. Everyone is facing the same issue. Don’t be afraid to reexamine your procedures and your staffing. Can you find common ground to address this market, yet meet your goals? You’re not in this alone. We’re in this together.

We can help you walk through these issues. Seek out that untapped talent base. I can’t stress enough—the mothers that are on the sideline. If you have a shortage of production, would four or six hours every day from some of these individuals to help you meet your goals? Why deny that just because it doesn’t fit the model that we had before? Lastly, remove any barriers to hiring that you can. Your hiring process and your onboarding process is not static. It should not be. It should be ever evolving. Review it frequently to see what you can do to expedite the process.

Remember people in this day and age? They shop online, they buy food, they do everything they want with a phone. Ok? If you can’t compete time-wise with bringing people on digitally and quickly, that’s going to set you behind to not only miss that individual, but you appear that you are not up to the date with how you run your organization. Just keep fighting, and keep your eye on the labor participation rate and the quit rate that will tell you where the market’s moving.

Kim Hartsock: (00:27:40) Thank you so much, David. It’s always so insightful to have this conversation with you, and I’m certain that as the year goes forward and things start to shift, we and our listeners will have more questions. I look forward to having you on again.

Paul Perry: (00:27:54) I think this time when he comes back, we’re going to have to give him like a five-timers mug or something. He would be the first one to get it. David, it’s always a pleasure.

David Salters: (00:28:03) Thank you very much. Have a great day.

Commentators: (00:28:05) And that’s a Wrap. If you’re enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on your streaming platform. To check out more episodes, subscribe to the podcast series, or to suggest other topics you want to hear visit us at warrenaverett.com/thewrap.