Intro: [00:00:03] Broadcasting from the Business RadioX Studios, it’s time for Workplace MVP. Workplace MVP is brought to you by R3 Continuum, a global leader in workplace behavioral health and security solutions. Now, here’s your host, Jamie Gassmann.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:00:25] Hi, everyone. Your host, Jamie Gassmann here, and welcome to this episode of Workplace MVP. This last year brought on an additional challenge for workplace leadership with what some experts are referring to as The Great Resignation or The Great Reshuffle.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:00:41] Turnover in 2021 was 12.2 percent higher than pre-pandemic turnover rates across all industries in the U.S., according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. There are varying opinions as to why employees were leaving their current employers over this last year and what some believe will continue into this year. Some feel it was as a result of employees realizing a need for better work-life balance and improved work environment or culture.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:01:11] Employees seeking a remote or hybrid work option, better pay. And some feel it may have just been as a result of people who were already looking to make a change but held off during the volatile times in 2020. And there are, of course, others from both a professional and personal reasoning that drive employees to make career changes.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:01:33] The concern for employers with the increase in resignations and employee movement to other organizations is the cost that turnover can have on the organization. At an average, for every salaried employee who leaves an organization, it can cost the company six to nine months of the employee salary to replace them.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:01:52] But not all turnover is bad. Sometimes it is better for the organization and the individual. But for those employees you want to keep, how do you create an environment that aids in your ability to retain them?

Jamie Gassmann: [00:02:04] Well, joining us today to share her best practice approaches to retaining talent is Workplace MVP and Chief People Officer at Relay Payments, Amy Zimmerman. Welcome to the show, Amy.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:02:15] Thanks, Jamie. I’m glad to be here.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:02:17] So, share with us your career journey to becoming the Chief Police – Chief People Officer at Relay Payments.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:02:25] Thankfully, I actually don’t feel like the Chief Police Officer at Relay. Long story short, I started my career post-college as a substance abuse counselor, which is probably a bizarre journey to where I landed. But as a social worker at heart, I think it shaped in every way the type of people leader that I’ve become.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:02:58] Ultimately, early on, I was a recruiter, and would still say that I identify as a recruiter in so many different ways. But started with a tech company in Atlanta in 1999. I probably just aged myself a lot. The company was eventually acquired by TransUnion. And I stayed on with TransUnion for a couple years as part of the agreement. But certainly learned very quickly that I’m a startup person through and through, and so left and did some consulting after my oldest daughter was born.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:03:35] And then, wound up connecting with Kabbage as a client of mine for quite a while. I actually helped them hire their first team member after they were funded. And eventually joined them full time and was with them pretty much the entire ten year journey to acquisition by American Express in October of 2020.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:03:58] I started consulting again and was introduced to the founders at Relay. And despite not being interested initially in being a full-time team member again, I quickly realized that it was a no-brainer our values aligned in every possible way. And if I was going to do this one more time, I’ve been part of two acquisitions at this point, I figured the third one, I’d go out with a bang.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:04:27] So, I’m at Relay Payments now and started with the founders when they were single digit team member numbers about a-year-and-a-half ago, fractionally. And we’re over 140 team members now and will likely be somewhere around 300 by end of year. So, giant growth plans and an exciting kind of road ahead with these guys.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:04:51] Wow. Very exciting. Can you tell us a little bit more about what Relay Payments does?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:04:57] I can. Imagine, we’re basically like the Venmo in the logistics industry. So, we’re modernizing payments for an industry that’s been ignored for a good while. I would say many of the ways payments is done in logistics and trucking, specifically, is very archaic. There’s lots of paper involved, which certainly leads to fraud, and leads to lost receipts, and lots of wasted time. And so, we’re creating solutions that modernize a very old practice. And as a result, save money in time for the really, really important people who are moving goods throughout the country.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:05:44] Wow. So, from your perspective, why do you think we’ve seen so much turnover in the last year across various industries with having employees leaving their employers?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:05:57] You know, I think a couple of things. You touched on some of them, certainly, and that’s, I think, there was a buildup. I think 2020 was so uncertain that some of the natural attrition that would have happened was delayed. And so, I think the uptick in 2021, for a lot of reasons, made sense. I think the complexity or the piece that probably was a little different or not COVID related necessarily was the fact that people realized that some companies were offering an enormous amount of flexibility and also care.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:06:40] You know, people were burning out. There was this confusion between work-life balance and work-life integration. When does work start? When does it stop? Does it stop? Is it fully integrated? Is there this expectation now that I work all day and all night? Maybe not even imposed by the employer, but self-imposed, because there was some confusion as individual team members about kind of boundaries, et cetera. And so, I think there were a lot of things, but I think a lot of companies got it right and a lot of companies got it wrong.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:07:13] And so, people were sharing stories with friends. I think there was more opportunity. A lot of companies decided that they weren’t confined by their geography, and so they were opening opportunities up to people in other states and other locations. And so, I think the opportunistic reasons that people left probably increased dramatically, in addition to the fact that people from 2020 that hadn’t already started contemplating a move decided to.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:07:49] And the part about companies not getting it right was some companies just didn’t do a good job of investing in their people and staying connected to their people while they were gone. Rewards and recognition, I think, is a giant way you do that, and we can talk more about that. But I don’t think a lot of the companies got that right. And so, there were just a number of reasons why people decided it was time to consider something new.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:08:16] Yeah. So, we’re going to talk a little bit this kind of first part of the show just discussing a little bit of the impact that this has on organizations when you’re having that turnover. So, looking at retention and turnover, what is that impact on the organization from your perspective of both of those?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:08:38] I think aside from the financial cost, which you referenced as potentially six to nine months of somebody’s salary, which is huge, there’s a loss of knowledge that walks out the door that can be hugely impactful, not only on the organization from an expertise and bench strength perspective, but also on the team members.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:09:01] You know, if the person that knows the most is leaving, then (A) We all have to step up in a way that maybe we didn’t have to before. (B) There’s a learning curve that we now need to navigate or figure out. And (C) If I’m the person who knew as much as the person leaving or say the second most, now, suddenly, there’s a burden. I’m feeling all of the pressure to be the subject matter expert on the team or at the company in a way that is imposing. Because I already had a full-time job, potentially, and now, suddenly, everybody’s looking to me to lean on and leverage because some of the other expertise walked out the door.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:09:42] And so, I think there’s obvious impact financially to the bottom line. But I think there’s more subtle impacts to morale and to people that are affected and caught up in some of that, that is harder to quantify, but super damaging, potentially nonetheless.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:10:01] Yeah. And that definitely leads into my next question in regards to, obviously, you can quantify those hard costs. You can put dollar signs to it. But what you can’t put dollar signs to is the soft costs around what happens to your people. And so, let’s kind of dive into that a little bit in terms of, like, the mental health impact or, to your point, the pressure, particularly in situations where maybe that person is trying to step up and maybe not getting noticed. Like, some of that impact that kind of ripple effects that happens from those situations. Can you share a little bit of your thoughts around that?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:10:37] Yeah. I think that’s probably one of the biggest opportunities for an employer to really double down. And when you think about losing somebody that could be material to the business for a number of reasons, sometimes that has a ripple effect. And people start thinking, “Ay yay yay. If that person left, what do they know that I either don’t know? Or they know something I also know, they had the nerve to leave, maybe I should do the same.”

Amy Zimmerman: [00:11:07] And so, in my mind, what an employer should do at that point is really, really double down. First of all, you can start doing stay interviews with some of the more key folks that you’d be in really big trouble if you lost. And, essentially, that’s a conversation where you get vulnerable. You ask, What do you love about this place? What should we do more of? And where are the gaps? What are our opportunities? If you were to leave, help me understand why so that I can try and solve some of those issues, or address some of those issues ahead of it getting you to a point where you’re potentially going to walk out as a result?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:11:50] The other thing is rewards and recognition. If people are working really hard, they want to be recognized for it. I think, you know, a lot of times people think, “Well, that’s what we’re paying them for.” They are being recognized for it. They get a paycheck every two weeks. I would say that’s pretty old school thinking. Companies that are doing the best work at retaining their folks show an enormous amount of appreciation.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:12:16] And so, one of the ways that you show appreciation is through rewards and recognition. And, certainly, there’s a cost associated, but the cost is small. I mean, $100 gift card or a dinner. Public recognition, it really goes a long way. And in many ways, it’s actually more impactful, in my experience, than giving somebody a raise. But giving somebody a raise can be a lot more expensive, but it’s typically private. That’s between you and the team member, and so there’s no public recognition.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:12:47] But when you celebrate somebody’s success, whether it’s a product launch, or whether it’s a customer win, or whether it’s some sort of accomplish toward the company’s goals, the entire company or department or team is actually celebrating. And so, that recognition has a ripple effect well beyond the moment of the discussion or the moment of the acknowledgement. And so, it’s really, really crucial that managers, and owners, and founders recognize the value and the impact of their team members and that they show appreciation for that, and that shows up in any number of ways.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:13:26] They can get really creative in some of those rewards and recognitions as well. So, where do employers go wrong when they’re trying to retain their employees? What are some of the taboo, if you will, things that employers do where you go, “No, no, no. Don’t do that”?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:13:44] So, there’s a couple of things. I will never discourage giving somebody a raise because, you know, money talks. No doubt, at the end of the day, everybody shows up at their job and, ultimately, they’re looking to earn a living to support their lifestyle, their family, et cetera. But it’s not all about money, and there’s a lot of research and a lot of data that proves it.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:14:06] But what a lot of times people do because they don’t know really how to do the softer stuff is they say, “All right. I’m going to throw some money at the person and I’m going to assume that’s going to solve all the problems.” And I can tell you that’s only a Band-Aid. And that is probably the biggest – I was going to say misconception or how much of a misconception it is. But if you think throwing money at somebody is the only way to solve a problem, I think you’re going to be really disappointed in three months when they leave anyway.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:14:38] Because what ultimately will happen is they’ll find somebody else willing to pay them what you’re paying them or more, and they’ll have a clean slate. So, they won’t have the baggage. They won’t have the burdens. They won’t have, potentially, the drama. Whatever it is that has created a negative experience, they’ll literally get to walk away from with a clean slate, in many instances, for more money. Minimally for the same money. And most people aren’t leaving for the same money. They’re leaving for more.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:15:08] But it really isn’t just about the money. It’s really to escape whatever the root cause is that’s creating the issue for the person in the first place.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:15:19] Like, when you think of an employee putting in their notice, is that the time that you offer the money? Or do you be a little bit more proactive prior to that? So, share with me a little bit of your thoughts on that because I’ve heard that throughout my career, and it’s awful. Somebody, when we’re trying to get them to stay, we threw a promotion their way or an extra money their way. You know, it sounds, to me, from some of your comments that that’s just kind of putting, to your point, a Band-Aid on it. And it’s probably not a waterproof Band-Aid, which means it’s going to fall off in a little bit.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:15:54] For sure. And the truth is, it’s too late. Most people understand that accepting a counter is a big mistake because the problems are never resolved. If you were so dissatisfied that you went through an interview process, got another job, and actually resigned, it’s too late.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:16:16] My advice to team members is, if you really want to stay, don’t stick around for a counter. Try and solve the problem before you start interviewing elsewhere. As the employer, if you want to keep somebody, make sure you understand market, make sure you’re paying your team members competitively. You’re not waiting for them to get a competitive offer. You’re actually paying them competitively because it’s the right thing to do for their skills, for their contributions compared to market, et cetera.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:16:43] We do market assessments a couple of times a year. It’s easy to get out of whack when somebody who’s been at the company for a while because, typically, people get raises when they leave. And so, if you’re somebody that’s been at a company for three or four or five years, you’ve potentially missed out on opportunities to get bumps to your salary unless your company is staying on top of how the shift in your comp should be happening.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:17:08] And it’s not three to four percent a year, which might be a fine raise in a customary situation or a traditional situation. But it’s not going to keep you up to market standards if that’s all you’re getting. And so, as the team member, as the consumer, you should also be aware of your value and your worth and having conversations proactively with your manager. Like, “Hey, I’m in this role, this is the value that I add. Market says I should be making X, but I’m only actually making Y. Can we talk about the disconnect?” Because that’s one way you can ensure that you’re going to retain strong contributors, but it’s got to be fair on both sides.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:17:53] And employees should be, you know, comfortable making some of those conversations. It’s okay to bring that up. You may not get what you’re looking for, but being comfortable in having a transparent kind of relationship where you can share that information openly. So, thinking of that, if they’ve got this employee who’s feeling undervalued or isn’t getting something – because I agree, it’s not always about money – how can an employer get that understanding from their employees before it gets to that point where they’re seeking other options?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:18:30] I’ve actually talked a good bit lately about this concept of stay interviews, and it’s essentially the opposite. If you think about when somebody resigns and they’re leaving, it’s pretty customary that companies run an exit interview. You know, what could we have done differently? And what was the ultimate decision that drove your exit, et cetera?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:18:52] So, turn that around. Have that conversation a couple of times a year. If you’re an effective leader anyway, you’re having regular one on ones with your people, you’ve got a relationship, you’ve established a rapport, throw in. And you can Google good questions for stay interview. I mean, there’s just a ton of writing. I’ve written some stuff on it. A lot of people have. And get a list of questions so that you’re not going at it blind.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:19:18] But, ultimately, you’re asking people, what is it that makes them tick? What is it that they need in their career, or in their role, or with the company that brings them joy? How do they feel excited about waking up on Monday?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:19:34] You want your team members to wake up on Monday excited to tackle a new week. Not dreading a new week. If they wake up on Monday and they dread going to work, they’re only going to do that so many times before they decide it’s time to look for something new. And so, if you conduct a stay interview with them ahead of a departure decision, you potentially will retain them. And in the process, you might even retain others, because a lot of times they’re raising issues that other people are feeling and, potentially, just not as brave to bring up.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:20:08] And the stay interview is kind of a newer concept that I’ve heard the terminology for, but there’s been other types with the Traction 555 meetings is a similar concept to that. What’s so powerful about those is, you learn so much about what drives your employee when you’re doing those types of meetings. I mean, you really can get to, kind of what you’re mentioning, what makes them tick, what their career aspirations are, what do they enjoy doing, what would they like to do more of.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:20:42] And it’s really fun, especially if you have new projects that come up, you know who you can assign it to because you’ve got somebody who’s already expressed that interest and you know them better. And I think through that, you just get to know each other better. So, it’s really kind of just a great leadership technique and approach to do as well.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:21:01] But what are some other ways that an employer can help to improve retention? Is there cultural things? What are some other ways that an employer can look to improve retention that maybe is broader, not just with the individual employee, but maybe the employee group?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:21:19] For sure. So, a couple of things. I think really building a strong community where people feel like they belong is a huge thing. If you wake up every day and you’re going to work and you’re part of this really awesome community, and you understand the mission of the company, and you’re excited, and you’re inspired by the mission, that’s a huge way to keep people excited about the work they’re doing and, ultimately, staying on the team.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:21:46] I touched on the idea of rewards and recognition, but people want public recognition, most people do. That’s not to say everybody does. But most people want shout outs. It doesn’t cost anything to give people a shout out when they just knock it out of the park. “Oh, you were instrumental in this new product release. I also noticed you worked round the clock for four days or four weeks to get something out the door, what an amazing, heroic contribution. Also, you missed dinner with your spouse or your kids, how about a $100 gift card so that you can make up that dinner on the company, since the company was responsible for the dinners that you missed while you were in the critical path on this project?”

Amy Zimmerman: [00:22:33] So, there’s free ways to recognize people. There’s inexpensive ways to recognize people. There’s so many different things that you can do from a culture perspective to create a community that people are excited to be a part of, and that will, ultimately, keep people at the company rather than contemplating the grass being greener somewhere else.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:22:55] Great points. Love that. So, we’re going to take a quick moment to hear from our sponsor. So, Workplace MVP is sponsored by R3 Continuum. R3 Continuum is a global leader in empowering leaders to effectively support and help their employees thrive during disruptive times. Through their tailored workplace, behavioral health support, disruption, response and recovery, and violence mitigation solutions, they can help you create a work environment where your employees can feel psychologically and physically safe. To learn more, visit our r3c.com today.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:23:29] So, we’ve talked a little bit about the stay interviews, so I’m going to keep moving here. So, quick question, and we talked about the positive sides of the stay interviews. How can they go wrong? How can they fall apart on the employer? How can, like, what was really well-intended, just go wah-wah?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:23:53] It’s a really great point. And they absolutely can. And I’ll tell you how and that’s, don’t ask people for feedback if you’re not willing to act on it. And that doesn’t mean you have to act on everything. You should acknowledge it. And if you’re not going to act on something, have a dialogue, be transparent about what it is that you’re doing and why, and why what they’re asking for may not make sense for the company or for the team.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:24:20] But if you ask, call it, eight questions, and you have an excuse for why you’re not willing to do anything, it will likely go wrong. Because now I’m a team member who felt supported and cared for. You engaged in an hour long conversation or a 45 minute long conversation. You seemed like you cared about my input. You ultimately acted on none of it. And so, what message did you send to me as a team member? You really don’t care. It was lip service.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:24:52] You know, it’s similar to an engagement survey. When you ask a series of questions, whether it be in a survey or whether it be in person, to your company or to your department or to your team, and, ultimately, take no action, I think you’re sending the wrong message and you would have been better served to not even put yourself out there and pretended to care about the feedback or to care about making any changes.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:25:17] Yeah. I mean, even if you just acknowledge like, “I heard what you were referencing, I will see what I can do to get you more training in that area.” Or just something to show that you’re going to take action with it, even if it’s just, “I’ve looked into that. I’m not able to do that, but here’s why. But here’s what I can do.” So, just kind of having something to fall back on, I could definitely see where that could go sideways.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:25:41] So, something you shared with me previously, and this kind of relates back to where those stay interviews could go wrong as it comes down to the management, and having good leaders that know how to navigate those kind of conversations effectively, or how to model some of that transparency and vulnerability within your organization. So, talk to me about what’s so important about this need for good management? How can an employer ensure that they have that? And what needs to be considered when you’re bringing a new leader on to your team?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:26:16] Great question. And, ultimately – gosh – so many things. I think there’s a lot there to unpack. But, ultimately, if you’re a company who operates from a set of values, which is a shared language between a team member, a shared commitment, a shared language between the team member and the company, your managers should all be bought in, and your managers should all be operating within that framework.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:26:43] And so, if there’s a disconnect between what you as the company, the founder, the CEO, whomever, believes you’re doing and you’re committed to, and you’ve got a manager who isn’t onboard or isn’t aligned or, frankly, isn’t qualified and isn’t operating in the capacity that you expect, they could absolutely be damaging your reputation as an employer, certainly internally and potentially externally.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:27:12] And so, I think it’s important that companies invest in making sure that their managers understand how management happens at the company. And so, developing those managers, developing those leaders, creating a shared sense of language and commitments. At Relay, we talk about continuous compassionate feedback. We talk about saying the last ten percent. We talk about being super transparent. These are all things that we’re committed to as a company and that our leaders absolutely align with and they understand.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:27:52] We’re actually in the process of building out a leadership development program that will run six months. And, ultimately, all of our leaders will go through the programming. It’s not a super heavy lift. It’ll be a 75 minute monthly commitment. And so, if you think about it, that’s not a lot of time for the amount of impact and access they have to your team members who are, ultimately, doing the work and driving the outcomes of the company. And so, there is an investment, I think, required of the company. But if you care about the team and you care about how your leaders show up, it’s probably an investment that’s worthwhile.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:28:32] Yeah. Absolutely. And I’m sure it contributes to this next question of mine for you is that, hearing that term creating a culture of safety. I think your leaders play a big impact on that. But in your opinion, what does that culture of safety look like and feel like in your opinion? And how does that help with retention?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:28:57] Oh, it’s huge. I think that’s part of the hierarchy of needs for humans. You’ve got to feel safe before you can do anything else. And so, I think the same concept applies professionally. If somebody doesn’t feel safe, they probably aren’t taking risks. If they aren’t taking risks, they absolutely aren’t innovating. Which means, they’re doing things the way they’ve always been done before.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:29:22] And if your company is trying to innovate, and trying to stand out, and trying to do something different, how is it possible with people that aren’t willing or able or feel safe taking risks and potentially failing? Because if they fear their job and they think that getting something wrong could ultimately lead to their termination, then they’re probably going to do everything really safe. And that’s not, in my opinion, going to move the business forward.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:29:53] And so, really, really important that you create a culture where people feel safe, and they feel like they can take risks, and they feel like they can actually learn and grow and impact the company in a positive way, which sometimes means you fail first and, hopefully, you fail fast, but only if you feel safe.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:30:12] Yeah. Absolutely. And sometimes that’s a big hurdle to get over, especially for newer employees that maybe are fresh in their careers and not really quite sure what they can or cannot do. So, I love that feedback and that thought process around helping them to feel safe about their role, even if they fail.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:30:36] So, looking at regular feedback, and this kind of ties into that, too, in creating that safety net for employees. That constant feedback, and giving regular feedback, and having that commitment to no surprises, can you share a little bit about that? Because, obviously, a lot of organizations right now are going through their annual review process, and the number one rule of a review is there shouldn’t be a surprise in it. So, talk a little bit about how organizations really need to focus on that feedback, how that plays into that culture of safety, how that plays in kind of this overall concept of retention?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:31:13] Absolutely. If you’re meeting regularly and, as a manager, you should be meeting with your team member if not weekly, biweekly at the very least. And those conversations should be super transparent. I think they should be compassionate, but they should be direct. And continuous feedback is a two way conversation. It’s not happening to me. It’s something that I’m participating in.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:31:38] And so, if you’re committed to continuous feedback and no surprises, it means you’re having conversations about opportunities. “Here’s some feedback. Here’s some things that didn’t really go well this week or last week. And here are some gaps. Here are some opportunities.”

Amy Zimmerman: [00:31:56] If you’re compassionate in your approach and you have a decent relationship with the person, it should be a conversation that’s received well. And if it’s received well, there’s a potential that the person will actually act on the feedback and do better. And you’ll create a situation where you’re turning an average employee into potentially a high performer. If not, and ultimately you wind up having to manage them out of the organization, they weren’t surprised.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:32:27] I mean, it’s one of the things that is absolutely most important to me. I am supportive of firing fast when somebody isn’t getting it. Look, we all make hiring mistakes. We’re human. Sometimes we miss something. And sometimes somebody is just a really good interviewer and then they just don’t show up for the work, whether they oversold themselves or they have other reasons why they just couldn’t show up. But it happens.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:32:57] And being transparent about the gaps, and being transparent about what the needs are, and how the needs of the organization aren’t being met means that if you do ultimately have to have a conversation where you’re parting ways, the person may not be happy with it, but they’re not surprised. And when you blindside somebody and surprise them in that way, it feels like something happened to them and it doesn’t feel fair.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:33:21] And so, in order to create a level playing field where somebody doesn’t feel like something is happening to me and that the company was being unfair, make sure that they’re not blindsided. Make sure that they know and that they have the opportunity to step up or to make changes where they needed to make changes. Ultimately, they could be an amazing employee. It could be that there was just a misunderstanding because the manager wasn’t effectively communicating the expectations. Or the team member wasn’t effectively hearing it. But the more the conversation happens, the more likely it is that you find common ground, alignment, and people really understand how to best work with one another.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:34:04] I think it also goes to, if there is that opportunity for growth and providing that feedback, sometimes you learn a little bit about your employee and how you need to manage them. That’s kind of been what I have found through the years of leading teams. So, looking at pay, you can see the research that sometimes or, actually, is usually the most common reason that an employee leaves an organization.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:34:31] But you have organizations out there that might be smaller or a midsize that they may not be in that financial position to be able to give the size of raise that an employee is expecting. What are other ways that an organization that maybe can’t give a pay raise can show value to an employee that would be enough to help keep them retained?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:34:54] I think there’s quite a few ways. I think showing the impact that the employees work has on the organization’s progress is big. I think one of the biggest ways is sharing equity. I’m a huge fan, and when I do advisory work with startups, I’m always a huge advocate for share equity with the company. If you create a situation where everybody at the company is an owner, everybody is incented and motivated to making that company successful. And sometimes you can get away with being under market on comp because people see the giant opportunity, if indeed it is a giant opportunity, from an upside perspective.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:35:38] And so, I’ve been lucky enough, fortunate enough, to be at companies that did have successful exits. And in each case, every single team member on the company made some money. And in some cases it was life changing. But, ultimately, it was the fruits of the labors paying off, and you don’t always have to be as competitive on cash if you’ve got other ways to incent people and motivate people to contribute.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:36:05] Sometimes it could be in skill growth too. Some of the opportunities that are presented within the organization that you could go and chase a bigger paycheck, but you may not get the opportunity to do something more than what you’re doing now. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:36:22] For sure. Especially in smaller environments. In larger environments, roles are typically better defined and they’re more structured and they’re more siloed. But in a smaller company, you usually have a lot more breadth, and depth, and access, and ability to have an impact. And so, if you’re in a smaller environment and you’ve got a lot of access, you’re going to learn probably at an accelerated pace than any other environment.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:36:49] I tell people all the time, you’re going to get promoted every six months, whether you’re ready or not. So, if you’re working in a high growth, fast moving company, you’ve got to buckle your seatbelt because it’s literally an accelerated MBA that you’re not paying for. What it winds up yielding, of course, especially if you’re in a situation where you’re not making as much money as maybe market or some of the competitive companies can pay, is, now you’ve got two years or three years or five years under your belt and talk about what that does for your value.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:37:24] You know, having a pedigreed company that exited that was well-known from a reputation perspective for hiring good people, putting out good quality products, and, ultimately, having an excellent outcome, you can pretty much pick your next opportunity and the money will be exponential. I’ve seen it a thousand times.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:37:43] Awesome. And, obviously, some of this firm play retention comes down to how do you properly hire the right employees. So, share a little bit about that. I know you talked a little bit about some of the ways you’ve hired in the L&D space and with coaching, share a little bit about some strategic approaches to employee hiring that helps.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:38:05] It’s huge. So, first of all, know your values. Know your company. Know what success looks like. And so, we’ve created this concept called Success Criteria. And, essentially, what Success Criteria is, it’s traits and characteristics that we believe the most successful people at the company possess. And so, we were able to create a scorecard.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:38:30] You hear people talk all the time, “Oh, that person is a great culture fit” or “That person is not a good culture fit,” what’s the barometer? I always ask people, “What does that mean to your organization?” And for a lot of companies it still applies. I think what people think about when they think about culture fit is people’s personalities. Are they going to fit in? Are they somebody I’m going to want to have a beer with? Are they somebody I’m going to want to sit across a room from at a meeting and spend a lot of time with and work with?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:39:02] But how do you quantify that? You know, when you think about D&I, I think about how do you create a more objective interview process to really determine whether somebody’s a culture fit or not. It should have nothing to do with whether or not you want to have a beer with that person. It should have everything to do with their capabilities. It should have everything to do with how likely they are to succeed in your environment.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:39:29] And so, by creating this notion of Success Criteria, you’ve at least objectively identified the traits and characteristics that will drive success. Now, you have to figure out how to evaluate candidates against your success criteria, no doubt. But if you create behavioral-based or competency-based interview questions, you can really zero in on the candidates that actually possess those traits. And so, that’s what we’ve done at Relay.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:39:58] The truth is, everybody, any company, can do a better job. I think we’ve done a pretty outstanding job. Our team is insanely high performing. And it’s very, very intentional on our part in terms of how we set it up, how we’ve recruited, how we’ve onboarded, how we’ve organized. I mean, you name it, we’ve been very, very deliberate and very intentional in all of those structures and all of those processes because I believe culture is a very intentional journey. And if you just leave it to chance, you’re going to have a culture, all right, it’s just probably not going to be the one you wanted.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:40:38] Absolutely. And it starts at the top and it starts, to your point, with an intentional this is what I want for my organization. So, I love that feedback and that advice to our listeners.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:40:49] So, you’ve given so much great advice over this conversation. It’s been such a great conversation. So, if our listeners wanted to get a hold of you to get more information or ask questions around how you’ve structured your hiring process or your retention efforts, how could they do that?

Amy Zimmerman: [00:41:06] I’m on LinkedIn, and that’s probably the best. But I’ve got quite a few advisory clients that I work with in addition to my full-time commitment to Relay in building an amazing team and an amazing culture. But I’m super responsive on LinkedIn, so if anybody wanted to reach out, I’d be happy to respond and be as supportive as I possibly could, given some of the other dependencies and commitments that I have.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:41:39] Absolutely. Oh, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you and learn from you. And thank you so much for being a part of our show and for letting us celebrate you on our show today.

Amy Zimmerman: [00:41:50] I appreciate that, Jamie. It was a lot of fun.

Jamie Gassmann: [00:41:53] We truly appreciate you being here. And we also want to thank our show sponsor, R3 Continuum, for supporting the Workplace MVP podcast. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you’ve not already done so, make sure to subscribe so you get our most recent episodes and other resources. You can also follow our show on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter at Workplace MVP. If you are a workplace MVP or know someone who is, we want to hear from you. Email us at info@workplace-mvp.com. Thank you so much for joining us today and have a great rest of your day.