Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: Hello, Houston. Trisha Stetzel here bringing you another episode of Houston Business Radio. I’m really excited about today’s guest and the topic. Today’s guest is Brian Dukes, managing partner at Exitwise and M&A advisory platform, helping business owners prepare and successfully navigate the sale for their companies. Brian’s journey started in Big Five consulting, followed by his MBA at the University of Michigan, and instead of taking the corporate route, he joined a Ford Motor Company joint venture and then co-founded a digital marketing agency that became an industry leader in automotive technology. After building and selling that business, he discovered his passion for helping other founders through the exit process. Today, Brian and the Exit Whys team are reshaping how entrepreneurs think about exits, removing the stigma, focusing on readiness, and teaching owners how to build companies that are ready for whatever comes next. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Dukes: Thank you so much.

Trisha Stetzel: I’m really excited about our conversation today because I think we both have this passion around this topic. But before we get there, tell us a little bit more about Brian.

Brian Dukes: Is it a natural reaction to always feel a little bit embarrassed when you hear your own intro? Yes.

Trisha Stetzel: And I do that on purpose because we don’t take the time to do it for ourselves. So I did it for you. It is my gift.

Brian Dukes: Well, I appreciate it and you know it. It is my story. It’s a summation of a 20 or 30 or so year professional career. And I’m super passionate and appreciative and excited about what I’ve done. But, you know, to put it into. And full sentences like that, it’s always, always nice to hear. So thank you. Um, you know, it summarized, uh, pretty, pretty well, a lot of the ways that my, uh, my. Professional wins have blown. I mean, really? Yeah. In summary, I didn’t know anything about entrepreneurship when I was growing up. My growing up in metro Detroit, uh, my dad worked at Ford Motor Company for 30 years. My mom was a school teacher, then turned nurse. And, you know, the traditional path of professional, uh, kind of professional life, you know, set forth in front of me. And it really wasn’t until after grad school that I, just by luck, uh, fell into a joint venture. I was 15th employee, uh, a joint venture, uh, really started to cut my teeth on. Wow. If I make a decision, it actually matters. Something actually happens or doesn’t happen. Um, and it really, uh, got me excited about, you know, being part of a small team and being part of this crazy ride that I now understand to be, um. Entrepreneurship, uh, three years after that made the official jump and, uh, was a co-founder of an automotive marketing technology company, uh, Enterprise Data, we launched in 2008.

Brian Dukes: Uh, our first client was soon to be bankrupt. Chrysler, uh, many, many horrific, difficult, challenging, ridiculous stories that came out of those next couple of years. But ultimately, we made it to the other side. Um, ran M&A through that process, saw, um, you know, saw the positives and negatives of M&A throughout. And then I personally exited in 22, reconnected with an old friend who was also, uh, an aspiring entrepreneur. And, you know, we really connected to this idea of M&A, helping business owners understand and successfully get through an exit is is just a, It’s an underserved market. I like to say that it’s really cool to help a business owner sell $1 billion business, but there’s just not enough people focused on helping the everyday entrepreneur in lower middle market and SMB to find the exits they deserve. And so, you know, that’s really you know, it’s a little bit of my journey, a little bit of my why. But I feel really passionate and love working with business owners and thinking about their futures and really helping them get on a path of what that what that future might look like.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, I love that. So can we talk just for a minute about what makes Exitwise a little different from all of the other businesses that are out there doing?

Brian Dukes: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you asking that because we can all look very similar. If you go to 100 different M&A advisory firm websites, many of them look very, very, uh, like they were designed by the same by the same web site house. Um, really a couple things. The first, uh, which I’ve, I’ve touched on a little bit, is this idea of everybody that’s part of this business. We are, are and have been operators that have built and sold our own businesses. Uh, we know not just what it takes to build a business and what it takes to exit a business. We we understand the trials and tribulations that are inherent with entrepreneurship. And as much as we’re led to believe that, you know, you can build a business, $1 billion business in six weeks with AI, uh, by yourself, uh, for for the rest of the 99.999% of the world. Um, we have a lot of horror stories and bumps and bruises. And I think, um, you know, where we come from is a place of, of empathy and understanding that this is a difficult road and that as founders, uh, as owners, as CEOs, uh, your time is constrained and you have a lot of, uh, a lot of responsibilities and a lot of things to worry about. And exiting isn’t always, um, you know, top on your list.

Brian Dukes: And so we we really beyond being a functional M&A advisors and bankers, you know we are there to be a coach a mentor having actually done it ourselves and provided maybe a little bit different insight and guidance than, than the typical investment banker. The second, um, is, is in our preparation or support of the preparation process. Uh, we’re big believers. You’ve heard me say it before in some of our conversations. Um, I think exiting a business, there’s a bit of a stigma around it. And, uh, part of that is, as CEOs, we’ve always kind of known the answer. We’ve we’ve known what we’re building. People come to us whenever they have a question, and we’re used to knowing what to do. And, uh, when it comes to, to, to selling a business, oftentimes we’re not lucky enough to, to do it multiple times. And so we don’t know who to go to. We don’t know who to trust. We, uh, we have built something so important to us and to our team and to our families that we, we, we struggle to to lean into somebody that can assist us in selling. So what that means is you put it in a closet and you hope that it just works out someday down the road. And then somebody knocks on your door one day and says, hey, you have something interesting and a value.

Brian Dukes: I’d like to buy it. And it’s like chaos reigns. And and that is ultimately why you see such a high failure rate in M&A. So getting back to your question, our big beliefs, uh, is, is working with businesses earlier in the process, understanding value, understanding how buyers would look at your business, really making it. You know, another CEO responsibility is thinking about your future exit. And that could be, you know, ten weeks from now, it could be ten years from now. It’s really thinking about it in a way that’s, uh, exiting my business is part of my responsible as an owner, and I need to start preparing. And so we just spent a lot of time early doing certified valuation work, helping organize financials in a way that a buyer could potentially understand. Um, you know, I said it already, the idea that we give you the view of the buyer and we we help you practice answering some of those questions, um, and thinking through the questions that you’re going to get from potential buyers to start preparing for that when you, you know, when you have time for it versus the stress of I have to respond in the next ten minutes and I don’t know the answer. Yeah.

Trisha Stetzel: All right. I want to tackle the idea of doing the hard things. So people who are listening have done a lot of that right. As entrepreneurs, we do. We tackle a lot of doing the hard things and we learn our lessons. We, you know, fall down on our knees, we get up and we go do it again. And then we fall off a bicycle and, you know, it’s perpetual. Um, so they’ve already done a whole lot of hard things. You’ve done them. I’ve done them as an entrepreneur, and thinking about this exit process sounds really hard too. So can you take me through just your thoughts on doing the hard things? You know, whether it’s personal or professional and what really makes us tick as humans?

Brian Dukes: Mm. Boy, I can take that in a lot of different directions. I’m a firm believer, just generally in doing hard things. Uh, we we, I think we’re trained at an early age that we have some mythical retirement. Or maybe we sell a business, you know, for a real amount of money early in our careers. And we sit on a beach and play golf or sail or fish or whatever we want to do. And, uh, I like to do many of those things. Uh, and I love being with family and friends, uh, and leaning into that part of my life. With that said, uh, for most humans, um, we need we need to accomplish tasks. We need to take on challenges, we need to do hard things. And I often say as I mentor, um, even, you know, junior resources, it could be like rewiring your bathroom, uh, putting up wallpaper. Um, you know, it could be building a business. You know, it can be really anything. Learning a new language. Um, it’s. I’m a big believer that a life without challenges is one that ultimately I don’t think is particularly fulfilling. So that’s just a personal belief. I don’t know that it’s a hot take in any sense, but I just I talk to enough business owners that go through a process.

Brian Dukes: They get to the other side, and then they’re somehow disappointed because they haven’t they haven’t built a plan for that future. Um, they realize too late that, um, it isn’t going to be fulfilling to travel around the globe 20 times. Um, you know, the first time was really, really fun. But after a while, you know, you just you just kind of, you know, you need to accomplish something different. And so I think doing hard things is, is really, um, you know, is a core belief of mine. Um, I guess specific to, to building and selling businesses, uh, I think, uh, I don’t know that any M&A advisor investment banker would say that selling a business is easy. But as you look at the, uh, this the scope or the scale of that discomfort or that pain or the difficulty of selling a business, it does not have to be a root canal. Um, it does not have to be emergency surgery. The just like, you know, many, many other analogies in life of, you know, studying for a final exam. Of course, it’s going to be horrific when you have to stay up all night and cram.

Brian Dukes: And ultimately the pain of probably not doing as well as you as you want. Now. Now you think about selling a business. And if you’re trying to to cram. If you’re trying to prepare with no time, invariably mistakes will be made. Money will be left on the table, other opportunities will be lost. And you have, you know, I’ll speak from personal experience. I regret some some bad final exam scores. It’s completely different to regrets like, oh my gosh, I left $1 million on the table because I just wasn’t prepared. And that’s a that’s a different process. So the idea of hey, we’re all busy as business owners, big or small, your your day is filled with life and work. Uh, adding another task to your to do list can feel really, really hard. Like, I don’t want to deal with this today, but if you can find a way to take on small tasks, work with advisors or partners or experienced founders that have gone through it to take on small tasks each day, each week, when it comes time to get to the big day, it’s not going to be nearly as painful as as it otherwise would have.

Trisha Stetzel: I love that preparedness and plan. Okay, before we go there though. I know there are people who already want to reach out and have a conversation with you. What is the best way to connect?

Brian Dukes: Uh, our our website is xyz.com. Um, I’m most active on LinkedIn. Um, look me up there. Uh, I post a lot of educational content around building and exiting. And my email address. Brian b r I a n at xyz.com. That’s great. Thank you. Great.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. And if you guys are looking for him on LinkedIn, it’s Brian Dukes. D u d u k e. All right. I want to dive into the part that we’re both even more passionate about than the first part of our conversation, which is readiness. I want to talk about readiness. What does it really mean? And why do so many business owners avoid thinking about it until it’s too late?

Brian Dukes: Um, yeah, I’ve kind of I’ve kind of talked about it, uh, or a couple examples already. But really, the my my my core belief is that a we’re too busy. I’ll get to tomorrow and b I don’t know who to talk to or to trust. And if you add I’m busy, I don’t have time for it today. And I also don’t know who who’s the expert that I trust enough to talk about something so personal. Uh, yeah. Inherently it’s just going to get delayed. And I think there’s just this, this stigma that exists that we have to keep it so private and so confidential, and we’re not allowed to talk to anybody. And oh my gosh, if my clients hear that, I’m thinking about selling. It’s the end of the world. And although I agree there’s certain aspects of that that need to be kept private, I, I believe and this isn’t me even being self-serving, I believe that more CEOs at any stage of any size businesses should be surrounding themselves with people that have been through it before that, um, maybe they’re even an M&A advisor or banker. Um, people that understand what that process is going to look like and feel like and talk openly with their teams and their employees. Um, I’ve seen firsthand the experience of despite begging CEOs to bring their team into the mix, uh, when they don’t. And then potential buyers start knocking on the door. There’s conversations that need to be had. People in suits start showing up in the boardroom. Everybody. I’m sure you’ve seen it before.

Brian Dukes: It’s like the whole office shuts down. Everybody wants to know what’s happening. The rumor mill starts spiraling out of control. And again, it it’s it’s not just the chaos of the sale. You have to keep running your business during the process. And the more distraction and chaos beneath the water’s level that’s happening, the more likely it is disappointment is going to occur through it. So again, a bit of a broken record. Readiness is is something that we’re super, super, super passionate about and understanding whether your business is worth $10, 10 million, 10 billion at any stage. Understanding, um, what is a buyer going to look at with your business, and how are they going to evaluate it? And what are the things that you could do to better, um, prepare your business for that, that future exit, uh, address things that buyers are not, um, are, not are going to question or want to dig into, um, and getting really comfortable with, um, with answering detailed questions about your business that, that you not only can tell them the answer, but you have backup documentation to prove. I was on a short aside, I was on a call yesterday with a client and we’re going through a six month project, um, of preparation prior to exit. And, you know, they were kind of validating, like, hey, you know, I’m just I’m not sure exactly, you know, what are some of the first steps or some of the things that we’re going to go through here? And he said, because I don’t like, I don’t um, I can’t really tell you how I, how I price you know, I have, you know, one of my biggest clients, they come to me and I’m like making it up on the fly.

Brian Dukes: Well, today it’s this price or yesterday it’s that price or I’m just negotiating on the fly. Like, how could you possibly Brian, document what that’s like. And I’m like, well, first you’ve just told the story of why we have to go through this process. Because if you told a potential buyer that you just make up the price on the fly like that, that’s a bad that’s a bad conversation. Your books, your financials tell that story and it’s okay. Like, don’t be embarrassed. You you may not know what that strategy is. You may not be able to quote what you’ve done for the last five years, but the books do. And if we can build a financial model that shows the history of that client, of that industry, of kind of your pricing strategy over time, and you can answer it confidently and then show the details in a financial model. Suddenly there’s no questions like, the buyer may not agree with that strategy. They may not like that strategy. They may see huge opportunity in that strategy of like, oh my gosh, you’re leaving so much money on the table here. Uh, but there’s no question of I don’t understand what I’m looking at, uh, because the moment they don’t understand what they’re looking at, that leads to ten other questions. And then we just get into this death spiral.

Trisha Stetzel: Okay.

Brian Dukes: Sorry a lot there.

Trisha Stetzel: No, I know I think this is fantastic. I love the conversation that we’re having so far. Um, and I think I hear what you’re saying is that everyone will exit their business. Everyone will exit their business.

Brian Dukes: We will all exit our business at one point in our lives. Yes.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, as you were talking through that last scenario, I was thinking about owner dependance, and I think that that’s a really big topic when we’re talking about exit strategy or preparedness or readiness. Can we talk a little bit more about how important it is that a business not be dependent on one person?

Brian Dukes: Sure. Yeah. Uh, and the answer can be different depending on how big your, your, your business is. One of the, the struggles that a lot of smaller businesses face is okay, great. I don’t want this business to be dependent on me, but I can’t afford to go hire a massive team to support me. And and so of course, if you’re a bigger business and you’re still dependent on the CEO, you have a little bit more flexibility to go, uh, either enable your, your, uh, your team, your, your executive team or the trusted folks around you start enabling them to make more decisions, to be more involved in the process, to document those processes, to have a voice. Uh, it’s always the, you know, a good test to, you know, hey, can you go on vacation for two weeks and not pick up the phone? Um. What happens? Um, it’s a good test. Um, but for a larger business, um, I wouldn’t say it’s not as complicated, but there’s more flexibility because it’s easier for you to go add to the team or supplement your role. Um, just through pure scale. When you’re a smaller business, you can’t just go hire three people to, uh, to manage your day or to do many of the tasks because the financials may not support it. And so our best guidance there is start with documentation to the example I just gave. That’s a that’s a I wouldn’t say a small business, but it’s not a huge business. It is very owner dependent. And so you can hear it in my story. Right. He’s he’s worried that this asset is unsellable because everything’s in his head. Well the answer isn’t to go hire three people. The answer is let’s dig in and understand what this business is all about.

Brian Dukes: It’s not just about documenting process. It’s about documenting process, understanding the business. How do you win today? How do you win the week? How do you win the month? And then starting to to understand what the real answer is to some of these questions that for the owner they’re very vague. But as I said before, the books tell the story like you can you can create the picture of what this business actually is or what it does or how it operates. And once you have that picture, you can even at a small business, you can either outsource, find small, uh, you know, from a financial perspective, bookkeepers that can help keep you on task and take over more of the billing and invoicing. You can you can bring on interns or virtual assistants or even, you know, AI in certain instances to take over some of the basic tasks, uh, of what you’re doing day to day and then allow you to do owner things like focus on the big ticket items. I don’t think it needs to be this super complicated, uh, situation of like, well, I’m, you know, I’m only a $2 million a year business. There’s no way I could hire three people. So I’m just. There’s nothing I can do. Like, it just is what it is. Um, I’m never going to be able to figure this out. And it’s overwhelming because they know how many things they do. Well, if you go through a process of documenting, working with advisors and operators that have done it before, you’d be surprised at how much efficiency that you can gain by knowing, organizing, and then finding small ways to outsource or supplement your time without having to go hire a huge team.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, you don’t have to do it alone, even if you are alone, right? I, I love what you said earlier about having people who have done it before you in the room. And I talk a lot about, um, who’s in your room? You need to have people who are bigger, better, faster, stronger than you in your room, always helping you get where you want to go. So you guys, I don’t care if you’re not even thinking about exit planning. I want you to do something today that’s going to get you where you need to be to exit your business later. So what piece of advice would you give to those who are listening, who haven’t even been thinking about exit planning, but heard you say, Brian, everyone will exit their business one way or another. What can they do today to just take that next right step to prepare for the inevitable?

Brian Dukes: I think the, um, the easiest suggestion that I give to any CEO or business owner is go find 2 to 4 hours of time without your cell phone. A weekend, a morning and evening. Just go find a block of time and have a notebook and let the body and the mind calm down. Some people enjoy having a glass of wine as they kind of relax and try to be really thoughtful about if you could design your business, your business’s exit in the next 5 to 10 years, what would that perfect world look like? And it’s not just I want $100 million in my bank account that’s, you know, that’s great. Everybody wants a little bit of money. This is what do I want for my people? Like, how do I put that that person that has helped me push this business forward. What is their ideal situation like? What am I trying to accomplish for them? Do they want a bigger role? Do they want, um, equity? Do they want to be, you know, part of this team long term if I, you know, trying to help them have enough experience to go, you know, build their next company. Um, who’s the ideal buyer? Right. Is it, is it, uh, somebody local in your market? That is going to is going to take care of the asset that you’ve built or is it, you know, a strategic, maybe even competitor, like, what would that feel like to have that conversation or a really big, you know, private equity, get some negative stigma sometime. But the idea of more of a financial buyer, somebody that’s, um, you know, they’re not going to be as focused on your people.

Brian Dukes: They’re buying you for more of a financial win for themselves. But long story short, sitting down and really trying to be thoughtful of designing, like, what is what do I want out of that exit in the future? And how do I feel about that exit? And what do I want to do in my in my life? And it’s one of those things could be I just want to run this business until I, I can’t run this business any longer, and that’s okay. But it also, even if that’s the case, it helps you think about and be honest with yourself of like what you’re trying to accomplish with this asset that you’re building and the life that you’re trying to design and the lives that you’re impacting with the employees that you that you have. To me, one of the one of the the the only things that are worse than not doing anything is trying to do something in regards to exit planning, but not knowing what you want as the end game. Um, it’s like any other analogy in life, you know, if you, if you start running down a road and you don’t know where you’re going, like, you might as well not run. Um, it’s I think it’s so important kind of the theme of some of our, some of the things we’ve already talked about of like really being thoughtful of the life that you’re trying to build and what you want to accomplish, and understanding that the thing that you’ve built is probably going to impact others. I had a CEO who we had done a really nice job, I think planning for the exit, who had been really thoughtful of putting, uh, his employees in great position.

Brian Dukes: A lot of people, you know, they made some life changing money. Um, as part of the acquisition. And he called me a couple weeks later and he said, we didn’t talk about it around the dinner table a whole lot during the process. But I told my kids over dinner last night that we sold the business, and the kids started crying. Um, because they had grown up knowing my dad and mom, you know, are the owners of this thing. And now my my, my dad doesn’t have a job. He’s out of work, right? As children, they don’t understand the implications. And it really struck me that, like building a business is is, you know, a community effort and, you know, being really thoughtful of like, what this means to your employees, to yourself, to the, you know, who’s the ideal buyer? Even your kids, I think I think it’s a really important thing now, functionally, um, a bit self-serving. You know, we always start our relationships with clients saying, understanding what your business is worth going through evaluation process, organizing your financials, and just getting a really high level understanding of what it is that you’re building towards is really important. Um, that’s our starting point of where we where we begin with every client and we think it’s it’s a great place to start. But, you know, I just I’d really encourage people to be really, uh, try to quiet it down and really be thoughtful about what that future looks like.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, I love that. Something that I’ve seen through our entire conversation today is the care that you have for the people that you’re working with. And I really feel like another special thing that you’re bringing to your clients is this idea of building a relationship. And I see that and I think it’s very thoughtful. So, yeah, thank you for for doing that. Because oftentimes when people think about exit or M&A or those words come out of anyone’s mouth, it sounds cold, Right. It doesn’t sound like a relationship or some place where someone really cares, and I see that coming from you. So thank you for bringing that to our conversation today. So I happen to hear from a little mouse that if folks are listening and they want to engage in a first step with you, that you might give them a special deal. I’m just saying. Um, would that be the case, Brian?

Brian Dukes: Yes, please. Uh, thank you for mentioning that. Um, and yes, for anybody listening, uh, please email me, uh, Brian, Brian at xyz.com. Uh, in the in the subject to put Houston Business Radio and happy to give you 20% off, $1,000 off our valuation and exit readiness process. Uh, it’s a four week process in which we just help you better understand, um, your business, help you get a little bit organized, give you a view of what buyers are going to look at, and you get to spend a little bit of time with myself and my team. And, you know, we’d love to be helpful, so please reach out.

Trisha Stetzel: Love that. Thank you Brian for that. I really appreciate it. And thank you so much for your time today. This has been an amazing conversation and I can’t wait to have a follow up. I think we should do this again in a few months.

Brian Dukes: Anytime. Thank you. Trisha.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. All right guys, that’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that Brian and I had today, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, veteran or Houston leader ready to grow. And as always, be sure to rate and review the show. It helps us reach more bold business minds just like yours and your business. Your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: Hello, Houston. Trisha Stetzel here bringing you another episode of Houston Business Radio. It is my pleasure to introduce my guest today, Paul Thornton, a seasoned author, speaker and leadership coach who spent his career helping people lead with purpose and perform under pressure. Paul is the author of several books, including Leadership Styles and the Leadership Process. His practical frameworks like this three leadership Styles model, and his simple stress management formula, which we’re going to talk about D is greater than CS equals. Sr helps leaders boost performance while maintaining balance with decades of teaching and coaching experience, Paul brings a clear, actionable approach to leadership, one rooted in communication, self-awareness, and responsibility. Today, we’ll talk about how to lead effectively, manage stress, and bring out the best in yourself and others. Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul Thornton: Trisha, thank you for having me on. Um, I’m pleased to be part of your podcast.

Trisha Stetzel: Thank you. It’s so exciting to have you on today. And we’ve got some really interesting topics that we’re going to cover. But before we get there, I’d love for you to tell us a little bit more about Paul.

Paul Thornton: Okay. I spent 20 years in corporate America, and I was primarily in the human resources department in a variety of roles. I spent a lot of time in training and development. Uh, the company I worked at was a big company. We had about 300 managers, and I spent a lot of time helping them become better leaders. Uh, we had a training staff of about six people that reported to me. And basically we put on seminars and workshops and gave feedback and coaching and what have you. Uh, secondly, I spent about 20 years as a college professor. I taught leadership and management type courses and, um, dealt with students and helped them become more effective managers and leaders as much as I can if they were in that role currently. Um. I’m married. I’ve been married for a long time, 50 years. And, uh, to the same person, I might add. And, um, we have, uh, two children, and I have five grandsons, so that keeps me busy watching them play sports. And, uh, you know, seeing them as much as we can.

Trisha Stetzel: That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And congratulations. It takes work to be with the same person for 50 years. It’s it’s yes, it is beautiful and it is amazing. But it also takes work. And we all have.

Paul Thornton: Yes.

Trisha Stetzel: That. Yep. And five beautiful grandsons. That’s so exciting. Paul. Um, the last we spoke just a few weeks back when we were talking about you coming on the show, you brought up the 3DS, which I think is very interesting. So can you explain how well one what they are and then how each works when and when leaders should use them?

Paul Thornton: Okay. Yeah. I um one thing I try to do, Trisha, is really simplify things. And in studying leadership, I found that a lot of experts and researchers and what have you come up with, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten different styles of leading. And I don’t think it’s that complicated. So I boiled it down to three basic styles. Leaders use directing, discussing and delegating. So the three D’s directing, you tell the person what to do, how to do it, when to have it done. By discussing you ask questions like you’re doing today. Questions about what should the goal be? What should the plan be? What obstacles do you see? Things like that. Delegating is empowering the person to take action. Do what they need to do to get the task done. I think every day parents, teachers, coaches, managers, leaders use each of these styles. Matter of fact, I think in the same meeting, you know a leader will use all three styles? Um, the big point is you need to use the right style at the right time. If a person has no experience on something, on a task you have assigned them, you know they’ve never done it before. They’re clueless. They don’t know what to do. They want and need direction. They want the steps to take. They want to know you know what’s expected, how to do it. They need help. They need structure.

Paul Thornton: They need the step by step formula to follow. So directing is appropriate. Directing is also appropriate in emergencies. You know, in an emergency situation you got to have someone who’s going to step up and make decisions quickly and efficiently and tell people what to do and where to go and that type of thing. Um, discussion is more appropriate when the person has had some experience and some know how. And you want to understand how they’re thinking about something, you know. So you’re asking them questions. How do you see the goal? What would your plan be? Or how would you proceed? What steps would you take? What obstacles do you see? So you’re getting a sense of how do they think about it? How would they approach it? And maybe they’re on course. Maybe they do it exactly the way you’d like. Or maybe their approach sounds better than what you even thought of. Or maybe they’re off a bit. So as a leader, you’re coaching them a little bit, you know? Okay, that’s a good point you made. But remember you know this and that and giving them some advice and guidance. Um, if you’re using a delegating style, if a person has lots of experience, you know, they’ve done the task multiple times, they know what to do, or they can figure it out very quickly. You want to empower them and just say, okay, here’s the deadline.

Paul Thornton: This is what you get done. You figure out how to do it. You take the steps you need to take. You just get it done. Hit the deadline. You know, if you need any help from me, come and ask a question or whatever. But you’re empowered. You get it done. So each style is appropriate in certain situations and helps the person. I think that’s what a leader does, helps the person achieve the goal, uh, that they need to achieve. The problems occur when people when leaders use the wrong style. You know, uh, some leaders micromanage. You know, the person’s done the task a whole bunch of times, but the leader’s still telling them what to do, you know, and they’re watching over and giving feedback and and all that. So that’s not good. It demotivates the person. On the other hand, some leaders delegate things to people that have no idea what to do, and they walk around aimlessly thinking, I have no idea what to do. So that’s not good either. So using the appropriate style is important. And again what I said before. Parents, teachers, coaches you know managers, they use these all the time. There’s nothing big and magical about this. But they’re very useful. And it’s good that the better you get at you using each style, the more effective I think you are as a leader.

Trisha Stetzel: Mhm. Absolutely. Uh, so good. I’ll call them exceptional experience leaders know how to use all three of these directing, discussing and delegating. So for new leaders out there who are leaders who want to get better, how can they improve in these areas. Because I see a lot of leaders who find one they’re really good at, and then they just stick to it. We can just take the micromanager. Not that that’s a good skill, but sometimes we see them stick to the thing that’s most comfortable. So how, as a new leader, do I get better in all of these areas so that I can be an exceptional leader?

Paul Thornton: Mhm. Well I think with directing you need to think about being a better communicator and you need to think about what context of what background information does the person need. Secondly, you got to think about how much detail does the person need. And sometimes writing it down you the manager or parent or teacher writing it down. So it’s really clear in your head before you sit down and communicate with that person. I think those types of things help us when you’re directing. Of course, asking questions at the end of it, are you clear on what you need to do and maybe even having the person feed feedback to you, the steps they’re going to take or what they’re going to do for a second and third. Um, with discussion, I found, um, for myself, uh, if I was, you know, I was if I was running a meeting, I would in advance of the meeting, write down the questions that I was going to ask. Actually, I get to the point when I was setting up, setting up an agenda for the meeting, I would often put the agenda item in a question like we need to do. Make a decision of who’s going to lead the Christmas party or who’s going to do this or that. Um, so writing your questions down in advance is a good way to make sure you’re covering the points that you want to cover with delegating.

Paul Thornton: Um, it’s thinking about who to delegate to, who has the appropriate background and skills and can take on the task. Um, Um, it’s also, you know, doing the delegating and learning as you go, getting feedback. Did I select the right person? Did they do the task as I had hoped? Um, what can I learn about myself in terms of the way I delegated? Did I select the right person? Uh, did I clarify exactly the end target of of what I wanted them to get done by a date? Or did I even let them figure out the what part of it, you know, let them figure out what to do? Um, so, like, with anything, you know, we need to reflect on what we’re doing, how we did it, ask for feedback. Uh, periodically ask the person you know, was that clear, the directions I gave you or that meeting we had? We had a good discussion. I thought, what did you think? You know, how could I improve? What could I do differently next time? So getting feedback, Self-reflection, asking colleagues, even, you know, uh, in that meeting that I ran today. Did I do an effective job of, you know, communicating my message, directing, discussing, delegating. What could I have done better? You know, so feedback is always something that is valuable and will help us improve. So that’s what I would suggest.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you bring things so simple to us. The three D’s directly discussing and delegating and what that looks like and how how we can improve in them as we get better at leading because we all want to do that. I’m I’m pushing that out to the world, into the universe. We all want to be great leaders. Sometimes stress will seep in. So can we talk a little bit about how we continue to thrive in this professional space, yet make sure that we’re still taking care of ourselves.

Paul Thornton: Mhm. Yeah. My my thoughts on stress I have a simple formula Trisha that you mentioned earlier. Um and it boils down to thinking about our demands. Our demands are really anything that we need to get done on a given day, the task that we have to get done. But it also includes the worries or concerns that we have. So that’s kind of our demands. Now, on a given day, you and I could each write a list of the things we need to get done today. And that list might, you know, buy milk on the way home from my job. Uh, finish a report, write a paper, um, conduct a podcast, whatever it might be. We each have a list of tasks and concerns and worries that we have. And some days our list is quite long, and other days it might be more brief. So that’s one part of the equation. The next part is our coping skills. How well do we deal with our demands and our coping skills. Not only well they include our self management skills. You know, how well do we set goals, make decisions, prioritize. Um, delegate. You know, how well do we manage ourselves day to day? It also includes what do we do to keep our mind and body in a position to deal with our demands.

Paul Thornton: So, like our diet, uh, sleep, uh, our relaxation or exercise, you know, what do we do there? Um, I meditate twice a day. I try to work out every day. So we need we each have a certain set of skills we use to deal with our demands. Now. If your demands exceed your ability to cope, you have a stress reaction. You know, when we feel overwhelmed, it means our demands have exceeded our ability to cope. And then we have some sort of stress reaction and stress can manifest itself in psychological things like worry and fear and things like that, or even physical reactions like high blood pressure, migraine headaches, ulcers, things like that, or behavioral, you know, yelling, screaming, arguing, nonproductive behaviors. Now, the thing I find is that when people are faced with a high level of demands, they typically let up on their coping skills. You know, they stop working out, they stop meditating. They stop taking time to relax and go for a walk because they want to use that time to deal with the demands. And because they’re not using their coping skills, they get more stressed out.

Paul Thornton: You know, it aggravates the level of stress. And we know that as stress increases, people’s productivity goes down. We become less effective. Our emotions and the demands that we face and all that type of stuff, you know, affect our ability to be productive and effective in doing our day to day work. So as a a leader, as a parent, teacher, whatever we need to think about, what can we do to reduce our demands? You know, can I delegate some things? Can I eliminate some things on my to do list? Can I, um, cut my meeting time in half rather than meeting for an hour? Let’s meet for 30 minutes. Or can I eliminate, um, some reports or paperwork or whatever it could be. Uh, I also want to improve my coping skills. I want to get better at communicating so I don’t have communication breakdowns. I want to get better at prioritizing my top 1 to 3 things that I need to get done each day or each month, whatever. Um, so I need to improve or keep improving my skills so I don’t get stressed out and become less effective and less productive. That’s kind of a long answer, but that’s no. It’s fantastic.

Trisha Stetzel: And there are some areas I want to take a deeper dive in. But but but before we go there, I would love for you to tell folks how they can connect with you. I’m sure just based on the first part of our conversation, they’re very interested. So where can they find you? Paul.

Paul Thornton: Uh, probably the best way is on LinkedIn. If they just put my name in LinkedIn, they’ll see my site. I, I do try to post something on LinkedIn, uh, almost every day. Um, I have a lot of, um, articles also on LinkedIn. Uh, I also would recommend, if you don’t subscribe to Smartbrief on leadership, you should. I publish an article there once a month. But there’s many, many, many great articles on there. Um, so you can see one of mine per month. Uh, but LinkedIn is probably the best way.

Trisha Stetzel: Okay, fantastic. You guys know, I’ll put the link to Paul’s profile in the show notes. His last name is spelled t h o r n t o n Paul Thornton. All right, Paul, I’d like to come back to this whole idea of being a great leader, not getting stressed out. How do we keep from letting these pressures really build up based on the things that we know we have to do? So. What are some just practical tips that you would give to people to stay in this space where we don’t forget our coping skills, or we don’t get so busy trying to take care of all of the I’m going to use the D as a distraction, but all of the things that are getting, how do we stay focused on those coping skills that we need so much to keep that stress reaction from happening?

Paul Thornton: Well, I think it’s almost you need to create some habits that you do every day. You know, habits are are can be very effective at, um, keeping you on track. As I mentioned before, I meditate twice a day and I do it religiously in the morning and evening. I work out for 30 to 45 minutes every day on the treadmill and stuff like that. So if you can create some habits like creating your to do list or identifying your top three priorities and do it at the same time every day. Make it a ritual or a habit that you get in the practice of, you know, doing it all the time. I think helps keep you grounded and focused on what you need to do. Uh, so I would strongly suggest that think about habits. I think two, we talked about reflection a little bit, and I think that’s a good habit that you need to build into your daily routine. Even taking five minutes to think about, you know, that meeting I had with this employee, did it go well? Could I have done it differently? What can I learn? What can I do better? But spending some time in reflection about meetings and interactions and things you’re doing to reflect on, are you focused on the right things? Are you being effective or what do you need to change?

Trisha Stetzel: A full calendar does not make you a good leader.

Paul Thornton: No, no, it does not.

Trisha Stetzel: We definitely need that time to reflect. And it does get out of control sometimes. You know, I look at my calendar and I’m like, what’s happening? I have no time to reflect on the conversation that I just had. So I appreciate you bringing that up. You’ve worked with and taught countless leaders over the years. So what patterns are you seeing with those who are sustaining both performance and well-being?

Paul Thornton: Um, they have balance in their lives. I think that’s important. Also, um, you know, they have a good mix of work and relaxation or proper mix of the two. Um, they step away from the day to day grind periodically. They, um, you know, can put things compartmentalized, things to an extent. And, and they find some things that they enjoy doing that take them totally away from their day to day demands. You know, it could be an athletic event. It could be, you know, going for a walk. It could be something. But they find something that takes their mind and kind of frees them up for, you know, some part of the day or week or whatever, whatever routine they’re in, whatever habit they have incorporated into their day to day life.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I hear a lot of people using the word integration versus balance, because we can’t always find that. Right. Yeah, but being able to step away and take a deep breath and enjoy the things that you used to enjoy before your calendar got full. Mhm mhm. Yeah.

Paul Thornton: Right.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah. Um, I’d like to. You talked about communication, and it made me think around, um, emotional intelligence. Right. The way we act and react not only to ourselves, but outwardly, to others. What role do you think self-awareness plays with managing both stress and being a good leader, or using the right leadership styles?

Paul Thornton: I think it’s very, very, very important. The more self-aware you are of your thoughts and feelings, the more capable you are of making the right decisions, saying the right things, asking the right questions. Um, I think self-awareness, you know, we talk about you need to lead yourself first before you lead others and to lead yourself, you need to be self aware And again, I think that’s a great habit. Like I said, I meditate, but doing something to become more self aware. Each day we all have blind spots. We all have things we do we’re not quite sure of, you know, the approach or how we come across. Um, my wife tells me at times I’m harsh. I don’t think I am, but she says I am, so I need to think about that, you know? So, um, yeah. So self-awareness is huge. It’s one of those things we need to keep working on all the time and get better at it. And the more self-aware we become, the more effective we are, I think, at our whole life managing our stress, managing other people, managing ourselves, you know, all of that I think gets better the more self-aware we are.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. And the good news is when it comes to emotional quotient or emotional intelligence. Whichever words we’re using now is that we can get better in each of those five areas that we measure, right?

Paul Thornton: Yeah. Yeah.

Trisha Stetzel: Really important. Okay. Uh, as we approach the back end of our conversation, I have one last question for you. If you could leave the listeners with one insight about leading others while staying grounded, what would it be?

Paul Thornton: I think the important thing is to think about, as a leader, what can you do to help the other person succeed? Um, giving them direction, giving them, you know, feedback, uh, asking them the right questions, empowering them. Your job as a leader is to make change happen, improve the status quo, make things better. And the question is, what can you do to help the person achieve that? You know, don’t focus so much on yourself, but focus on what do they need. What’s going to help them to be the best that they can be?

Trisha Stetzel: I love that, that’s fantastic. So, Paul, I mentioned at the top of the conversation that you had written some books. So tell us the names of those books and where we can find them.

Paul Thornton: Um, yeah, I’ve written quite a few books actually. Um, just finishing up my 30th book, which, uh, is a lot. I know, um, all of them are available on Amazon. Um, I think the ones that are seem to be most popular are leadership styles, which we’ve talked about today. The three D’s. Uh, I have a book on the leadership process, which also is a good one. Um, I also am a big believer in alignment, so I wrote a book about organizational alignment to achieve peak performance. That’s the name of it. I think that’s a great one. And that’s a topic that doesn’t get a lot of attention. But alignment in organizations is very important. And I also have one on managing your stress that we talked about today. All of my books are short to the point. Uh, they’re like 70, 80 pages. They’re very inexpensive, and I think they’re worthwhile to give you, you know, additional insights and additional examples and, uh, skills that you will need to be will help you be more effective. So thank you for asking.

Trisha Stetzel: Yeah, absolutely. So you guys, you should go on to Amazon right now. And you should look up Paul Thornton as an author and add him to your favorite list. So in his 30th book comes out you get a notification. And just remember it’s Paul. Paul. Last name? Thornton. Thornton. T h o r n t o n. And you can also connect with him on LinkedIn. Paul, thank you so much for being on with me today. This has been such an inspiring conversation.

Paul Thornton: Thank you, Trisha, for having me.

Trisha Stetzel: All right, you guys, that’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that I had with Paul, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, veteran or Houston leader ready to grow. And as always, be sure to follow, rate, and review the show. It helps us reach more bold business minds just like yours. And your business, your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.

Intro: [00:00:05] Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Houston, Texas. It’s time for Houston Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:00:16] I’m excited about my guest today. Cole Napper, VP of research, innovation and Talent Insights at LightCast a globally recognized voice in labor market intelligence, people analytics, workforce planning, and talent and Talent intelligence. Cole’s led people analytics functions across brands like Fedex, Toyota, PepsiCo, Texas Instruments and Grainger, and he advises HR tech startups on applying gen AI to real business problems. He’s also the principle behind directionally correct. The number one people analytics podcast and newsletter, and the author of People Analytics Using data driven HR and Gen AI as a business asset. From translating talent data for investors to building skill based organizations, Cole’s work flips HR from cost center to profit center. We’re digging into the fault lines shaping the future of work, geopolitics, AI, and demographics and what leaders should know. Cole, welcome to the show.

Cole Napper: [00:01:24] Yeah, thanks for having me, Trisha.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:01:26] Yeah. So you didn’t know I was going to do all that, did you?

Cole Napper: [00:01:29] That was quite the mouthful.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:01:31] Yeah. It was. Well, I’m super excited about having you on the show today. Cole, why don’t we dive into who Cole is? So tell us a little bit more about you.

Cole Napper: [00:01:39] Well, I think, first of all, and I hope you guys won’t hold this against me, but I’m based in Dallas. And so I know there’s the Houston Dallas rivalry, but, you know, don’t hold that against me. But. So I have a background with a PhD in industrial organizational psychology, as you mentioned in your intro. Um, you know, I’ve been working in the the people analytics, talent, intelligence, labor market space for over 15 years and, uh, been at a variety of large multinational companies now more of a research capacity for again, like cast kind of the global leader in labor market intelligence and skills for organizations. And I get to do a lot of really cool work. And then again, recently released the book two weeks, two months ago, uh, called People Analytics. And so really excited to talk to you today, Trisha.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:02:29] Yeah, fantastic, I love it. So tell us, uh, let’s dive into a little more detail around like, cast, what services are you providing and the customers that you’re supporting.

Cole Napper: [00:02:40] Yeah. So like, cast, uh, the company formed about 20 years ago. So we’re the longest standing labor market intelligence provider. And depending on the type of organization you are, we support it in different ways. And so we got our start working with higher education and the public sector. So municipal, state and federal level workers trying to understand and bring about in the education sphere, tying the curriculums that that universities have to the jobs that are being hired for in the labor market, in the public sector, it’s about making the locations in which you reside desirable for investment in by organizations, into the talent and skills located in the area, and even being able to, you know, get, um, organizations to invest in the area. Um, like, we do a lot of work now with organizations that are trying to attract data centers and things like that, or regions that are trying to attract that. And then for for big organizations, it’s about understanding the skills of their workforce, investing in things like how is AI going to transform your workforce in the future and and looking at, you know, what is the supply and demand levers that and how are they impacting organizations ability to attract talent, develop them and upskill them for the jobs of tomorrow.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:03:57] Okay, so first off, we’re not going to hold it against you that you’re in Dallas. I was actually born and raised in North Texas, so it’s okay. We can still be friends.

Cole Napper: [00:04:07] You can’t even call it Dallas. You can only call it North Texas just to be diplomatic, you know.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:04:11] Well, I do, and, you know, my mom is the biggest Cowboys fan on the planet. And we always try to root for the, you know, the home team, which has not been very much fun the last couple of years. So, um, okay, lots of technical stuff there. But before we even dive into coal, like the technical aspect of what you’re doing, what do you find are the biggest fault lines, uh, in the labor market right now? And how should we actually interpret them?

Cole Napper: [00:04:41] Yeah, this this is a huge question for organizations. And so one of the things I’ve been kind of out on a speaking tour lately that I’ve been talking about is every organization, again, the ones I mentioned earlier, higher education, public sector and private sector enterprise organizations is every one of them is experiencing at least one of these three fault lines and sometimes two or more. And it is. How are geopolitics affecting the labor market and their ability to acquire talent? Are you having supply chain disruptions or tariffs impacting you or interest rates impacting you? Is immigration impacting your ability to hire? All of these things that historically, you know, we’ve kind of taken for granted. It feels like the ground is shifting beneath our feet while we’re trying to operate. And so that’s why we’ve been using the metaphor of fault line. The second is AI disruption, right? Many jobs, especially white collar jobs right now, are people are asking the question, can an AI do components of this job? Maybe particular tasks or even whole end to end processes as good or better than a human being? And so AI disruption is cutting across the workforce in a variety of capacities, and the last is labor shortages. And if you think about healthcare, construction, manufacturing and manufacturing, especially kind of overlaying with the geopolitical component, a lot of reshoring is going on right now in the United States. It’s cutting across a lot of different industries and sectors. And the ability, I think most of us are used to the ability. If you make a job postings that you can just go hire someone and they’re going to have the skills and they’re going to accept the wages that are available. And one of the things that we’re seeing with the retirement of baby boomers and Gen Z entering the workforce is a much smaller generation than prior generations. We’re having labor shortages for the first time, basically since the Industrial Revolution. And so this is a really challenging time for organizations. And in the labor market is right in the center of those issues.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:06:45] Yeah, I think all of this is really resonating. I know with me in particular and those who are, um, the broader part of my audience who’s listening today. So we talked a little bit or in your intro, uh, about cost Center versus, um, an an actual investment, right. Uh, or profit center when we talk about HR. So can you dig into that a little bit?

Cole Napper: [00:07:13] Yeah. When I think about, um, you know, if you took a business 101 class, one of one of the things that you would learn is, you know, try to maximize revenue and minimize overhead, right. And one of the things when you think about traditional HR, it has always been considered a cost center, i.e. overhead. And so traditional business 101 playbook is you want to minimize that as much as possible. Now, one of the kind of the burgeoning trends that you’ve seen over the last 15 years or so is how human capital is a key differentiator for organizations. And so that kind of goes in the face of, well, this is just overhead. This is something you can minimize. Perhaps it is a competitive differentiator for businesses. And so one of the things that I’ve been challenging, the HR, I’ve been challenging businesses themselves. And the HR functions in two different ways. One, the HR function is saying you need to move from being a cost center to a profit center. And to do that, you have to show the value of the human capital that you’re bringing in, that you’re upskilling, that you’re training for organizations to organizations themselves, is they need to recognize the value of that human capital and invest in it as if it’s a key differentiator for that organization. And so this is sort of a mindset shift that’s been going on for quite some time. But with the introduction of generative AI into the equation, I think a lot of people have felt sort of in a tizzy about this. It’s like, do humans still matter? What role do they play? And so what I did is I went systematically through everything that HR does and I show here’s how you add value with it today. Pre generative AI. And here’s how it’s going to continue to add value with generative AI into the equation. Just to give people a playbook of hey this isn’t something you need to be scared of. This is something that you can be proactive and be, um, you know, be an early adopter and really show that this is a key differentiator for your organization.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:09:09] Yeah. So that playbook is really important. I think there are still people out there, Cole, who are afraid of AI and don’t know exactly what it is. So how what would you suggest as like a first step to getting comfortable with what I mean? We all know what AI means, but do we know what it actually is? So where would you where would you start if you were? Yeah.

Cole Napper: [00:09:35] Well, AI is a weird technology in the sense that I’ve been using this example of like a pencil never taught you how to write, but AI can teach you how to use AI, and as far as I know, it’s the first tool that can ever do that. So the thing I would tell people is just open up any AI application and ask it, teach me how to use you. And the funniest thing will happen is it will actually give you examples of how to use you, right? And you could watch a YouTube video or anything on how to. But actually the funniest thing about it is the easiest way to learn is just by opening it up and typing in something, much like a Google search to say, how should I use you? And and and it will respond. And the funny thing is will be pretty good. And so the interesting thing about AI versus kind of prior technologies think about like computer programing or, or, you know, learning a foreign language or something like that. The barriers to entry for those were so high in terms of adoption. The barriers to entry are essentially just the ability to type. And, you know, having verbal and literary and literal, um, you know, fluency to do these types of things. And so I think that, you know, AI is a funny thing is it’s going to teach you how to use it.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:10:49] I love that like this. This weight has been lifted off of my shoulders, and I’m sure other people are like, oh, well, I never I never thought about that. And if you’re using a tool that doesn’t have a chat in it, there’s so many of them do now they’re integrated. Then go ask your chat tool how to use the new calendar AI tool, or some you know thing that you’ve now decided to play with. I love that! What fantastic advice. So you’ve talked about um, or I’ve seen you write about micro AI versus macro AI. Um, what’s a practical roadmap leaders can follow without chasing shiny objects?

Cole Napper: [00:11:28] So this is such an interesting point. And the point I made a second ago was what I would call micro AI. And what that means is many, um, you know, most organizations are their leaders are saying we want to encourage AI adoption, right? Right now, at least if you’re a big organization, white collar workers, you’re a lot of people are getting these messages, hey, go and build AI capability and skills. And then they ask the reasonable next question is what does that mean? Right. And so what? The simple version of what I’ve been calling micro AI is just going in and learning how to use these tools yourself as a human being or as a team or even as a function. And it’s just saying, this is local to me. I’m going to build my own capabilities and that’s great, and there’s nothing wrong with that. However, there’s this kind of counter narrative, which is many executives, when they’re talking about making investments in AI, they’re not talking about micro AI. What they’re talking about is what I call macro AI, which is the ability to bring AI in to understand a business process or build an entirely new technology, or a new operating model or a new workflow end to end with AI at the center of it.

Cole Napper: [00:12:42] And that takes a completely different skill set. It takes coordination amongst many human beings, and it’s not the same as just using a chatbot. And and so the confusion I see lies in, you know, managers when they’re talking to their teams, they’re saying, hey, let’s all go get Upskilled on ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, the tool of choice that their organization is. And executives are saying, yeah, but that’s not what we meant. We meant that we wanted you to make the we’re making $1 billion investment as a company into AI to tackle problem XYZ for our organization, and we’re going to completely, fundamentally transform our work. And so one of the things that I’ve been talking about lately is AI workforce transformation is going to be one of the hottest business initiatives in 2026. And if organizations are wanting to understand that companies like, like CAF can help. And so in the book that I wrote is going to be kind of what I would say, a primer to understanding how this is going to impact your workforce over time. I think this is going to be one of the hottest issues over the next year or two.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:13:45] Yeah, fantastic. All right. Tell us the name of your book again, Cole.

Cole Napper: [00:13:49] Well, the short version is just people analytics. The long version is people, people analytics using generative AI. And, um, and oh, I should know this. Uh, let me look at it. Uh, if you edit this out using data driven HR generative AI as a business asset. Sorry, I got my tongue tied for a second.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:14:06] No, no, no. That’s good. So where can folks find that book?

Cole Napper: [00:14:09] Anywhere. Books are sold. Uh, I think Barnes and Noble even has them in physical locations as well. But if you anywhere online, you can find it.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:14:16] Okay. Fantastic. You guys, uh, if you go online looking for the author, it’s Cole Napper c o l e n e r so you can find that book. Cole, I know that people are already ready to connect with you. Want to have a conversation, see what you’re up to. How can they connect with you best?

Cole Napper: [00:14:34] Yeah. The best way to get in touch with me is Cole dapper com as Trisha just spelled it a second ago. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. And if you’re interested in any of the work that we’re doing at Light Cast, you can also look at like our website as well.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:14:49] Fantastic. Uh, you guys know I’ll put that in the show notes. So if you’re sitting in front of your computer, you can just point and click and get in touch with Cole right away. Um, I’d like to jump into, because you’ve been talking a lot about a lot of things, uh, in this labor space. Um, how what for those people who are listening, Cole, what’s something practical where they can start to use the types of systems that you’re talking about to hire the right people and get the right people on the right team doing the right things?

Cole Napper: [00:15:26] The thing I would say, going back to the fault lines here for a second, is I would go back and I said, you know, the like geopolitics, AI disruption, labor shortages. Not every organization is experiencing all of them, but every organization is experiencing at least one of them. And so the first thing I would say is which of these are you experiencing? And then I would say that’s going to lead you to the resources that organizations like lighthouse can provide. We have so many materials about helping organizations with labor shortages. We’ve been talking about this for years, even before, you know, this was this is becoming a hot topic right now. But we were talking about it showing that this was going to become a hot topic because we are always very forward looking organization. We’ve been doing research into AI ever since generative AI came out in 2022, so we have a lot of resources around that and how that’s going to impact, again, that AI workforce transformation I was talking about earlier. Geopolitics, frankly, is a newer one for us, and I think it’s newer kind of for the globe, frankly. But we have um, the, the a research report coming out in February called Fault Lines. That’s going to go it’s going to be hundreds of pages long.

Cole Napper: [00:16:35] It’s going to dig into these things. And we already have many, many resources internally for organizations that we already work with that are experiencing geopolitical kind of conflicts. So imagine just for a second, if you’re an organization. And again, I use data centers as an example. Earlier you’re thinking about, well, I’m considering these ten cities about putting a data center. What variables should I look at to see if they have the available workforce in these ten cities, like Cass has you covered? Or if you’re an international organization, you’re saying, you know, we have invested heavily in manufacturing in country A, B, C, and that country is not getting along with the United States anymore. And we’re thinking about moving it to countries, you know, C, D, and F and well guess what? Like Cass has data on all of those countries and can and can guide you and say, here’s what you would need to make the right investment into the right part of the world, or where to restore it in the United States as well. And so we’re doing that work constantly. And so depending on the type of organization you have, we can help in all of those circumstances.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:17:39] Fantastic. That’s very interesting. I know you’re doing some community work as well, which is why you have the some of these opportunities to talk to people. One uh, one area is your podcast directionally correct? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Cole Napper: [00:17:53] Yeah, so I started my podcast, uh, back in 2021. So it’s about four years old. Um, it’s focused primarily for, uh, the geeks of the world that are very interested in these subjects. So not as broad an audience as yours, Trisha, but I’m really I talk to the leading experts in the world, in the field of the things that I’ve been talking about from multinational companies, higher education, uh, leaders in the government who are doing this type of work. And they get to talk about exactly what that means in practical, real world terms and help guide folks in the future. And I referenced many of those episodes in the book as well. So it’s been a great resource to give me real world use cases about how this applies outside of my own career, where I have a lot of really good examples as well. Um, but and then I also write a lot of really provocative articles in my Substack newsletter that’s under the same name. And again, we get to use those as fodder to talk about in the podcast as well. Uh, I like to say it’s edutainment, meaning we like to crack a lot of jokes. We have a lot of fun, but it’s also very educational if you’re interested in that field. And I think that’s why it’s kind of separated itself from the pack in terms of other folks that are talking about this space.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:19:07] Nice. Uh, so you guys, if you’re interested, that’s directionally correct. Um, I think I know that you’re running some people analytics meetups. Um, tell me more about that.

Cole Napper: [00:19:23] Yeah. In terms of giving back one of the organizations, actually two organizations, the Society of Industrial Organizational Psychologist, which is called Psyop, and the Society of People Analytics called Spa. Uh, for both of those! I’ve been involved in the community function, so I actually lead the community committee for SCA. Um, and that helps with meetups not just around the United States, but around the globe. Uh, I actually started the People Analytics meetup in Dallas Fort Worth in 2018, so it’s been going about for about eight years. I’ve helped Chicago, I’ve helped Denver, I’ve helped Nashville, I’ve helped Atlanta, I’ve helped Houston even actually, uh, which is funny enough. Uh, and so I know the leaders down in that meetup as well. And so if you’re ever interested in getting involved in those, if you’re in that space, uh, feel free to reach out to me and I can get you connected with the right people locally.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:20:10] Yeah. Fantastic. I love that. I love everyone who gives back. I mean, if we’re going to go out into the world and have a business and ask people to engage us, then we should be giving back to that same community. And thank you for doing that. Uh, and such interesting work that you’re doing. So something’s bubbling, bubbling up for me when it comes to AI and labor. And the question here is how do you balance personalization, privacy, and even bias mitigation when you’re deploying AI across talent decisions? Humans? Yeah.

Cole Napper: [00:20:44] Well, I think that, uh, I even and I talk about this to a great extent in my book, um, there’s a famous slide from an IBM slide deck in 1970. Talk not talking about AI was just talking about the introduction of computers. And it said computers can’t make decisions because computers can’t be held accountable. Right. And so fundamentally, my belief stays within that vein, which is we should be helping AI to make help humans make decisions better. But we should not be allowing AI to make decisions without humans in the loop. And I think that is a key distinction. So some organizations are trying to affect change by putting AI to kind of automate decisions. I think that that is a bad idea. I think that’s going to be hard to legally defend. Idea in the future as those lawsuits start to come up. But I think AI is probably the best resource that’s ever been created about giving people broad access to information across the spectrum to make decisions themselves. And again, it has problems around hallucinations. If you ask it a question, it doesn’t know the answer. It doesn’t say, I don’t know. It bluffs you. And it says, here’s the answer, even if it’s made up. Right now those are problems. And so I would always check secondary sources. If you’re trying to make a key decision, making sure that the data it’s providing you is correct. And frankly, it cites sources like like CAS sometimes. And sometimes they’re actually right and sometimes they’re made up. And so, you know, go to the core source of data if you’re looking to do these types of things. All that said, I’m very, very pro AI. I’m very think it’s going to be a positive force in the world. But ultimately human beings need to stay. Key decision makers as we move forward.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:22:33] Yeah, I love that. And you said something that really resonates with me that I’ve heard before, which is human in the loop. So when I say that or when you say that, how does that apply to. And I know you talked a little bit about it just now, but how does human in the loop apply to the business owners that are listening today that are implementing AI solutions?

Cole Napper: [00:22:56] Well, I mean, I think a key example from the HR human capital space is hiring. Should an AI hire someone without a human in the loop? Or fundamentally, should a hiring manager always be the person who fundamentally makes the decision on whether someone is hired? Ai could be used to understand the candidate better, to parse their resumes to. You know, some organizations even do things like video interviewing and those types of things, and AI can help supplement that in terms of saying, you know, this might be a good candidate. This this one, you know, wasn’t as good. But fundamentally, that decision should always reside with the hiring manager. And that’s going to be the most legally defensible decision at this moment.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:23:42] Yeah, I love that. Thank you for taking us a little deeper in that. So I want to jump back over to like, Cass, tell me the types of clients that you’re working for. So if people are listening and they’re like, oh, this sounds really interesting. Tell me about the types of clients that you’re working with.

Cole Napper: [00:23:57] Yeah, I mean, we work with the largest institutions in the world. So 67 of the fortune 100 companies are our customers. If you’re in the public sector, we’re working with the Federal Reserve, the world Bank, the International Monetary Forum, like all of these major multinational institutions and higher education, we’re working with most of the leading higher education institutions in the country, as well as thousands of community colleges as well. So any kind of form of higher education, even online learning institutions as well. And so any of these organizations, these are who we’re working with. We work with the, the the state of Texas, the Texas Workforce Commission, I believe we I think we work with the city of Houston. I’d have to double check that, but we work with many cities around the state as well. And so we are deeply embedded in the community. In addition to working with many global organizations.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:24:52] I love that. All right. So as we get to the back end of our conversation, one last question, Nicole. If a leader wants to make one decision this quarter, let’s just call it first quarter. If they want to make one decision in first quarter that materially improves talent outcomes and business performance, what should it be and how will they know that it actually worked?

Cole Napper: [00:25:17] I ask me the hard questions. Well, I would say my cop out answer is it’s going to depend on the type of business that you run. But let’s say for the sake of argument, that this is a business that has a key thing, like AI disruption going on right now. I would say you should be understanding the work, your workers and the types of work that is getting done early in this year and making those investments. And I would frankly say you should probably start out by piloting some of those investments so that you don’t overcommit, and then it doesn’t end up working out. But once you’ve done the pilot, you you darn well better be measuring the results to see if it’s having the intended impact. And then if it is, you should roll it out more broadly. And so I would think that would be a really key result that many organizations are going to be facing in early 2026.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:26:07] Yeah. Fantastic. Cole, thank you so much for being with me today. This has been a fantastic conversation.

Cole Napper: [00:26:14] Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Trisha.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:26:16] All right, you guys Cole napper. He is the host of directionally Correct and also the author of People Analytics using Data driven HR and generative AI as business as a business asset. Cole, I appreciate your time today. And, um, can’t wait to have another conversation with you because I’m really interested in all of the things that you said today. I want to dig deeper.

Cole Napper: [00:26:40] I want to come back for a part two at some point.

Trisha Stetzel: [00:26:43] Yeah, I would love that. All right, you guys, that’s all the time we have for today. If you found value in this conversation that I had with Cole, please share it with a fellow entrepreneur, veteran or Houston business leader ready to grow. Be sure to follow, rate, and review the show. It helps us reach more bold business minds just like yours and your business. Your leadership and your legacy are built one intentional step at a time. So stay inspired, stay focused, and keep building the business and the life you deserve.