Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Woodstock, Georgia. It’s time for Cherokee Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to Cherokee Business Radio. I’m your host, Joshua Kornitsky, and I’ve got a great guest here in the studio today. But before I get started, I want to remind everybody that today’s episode is brought to you in part by the Community Partner Program, the Business RadioX Main Street Warriors defending capitalism, promoting small business, and supporting our local community. For more information, please go to Main Street warriors.org. And a special note of thanks to our title sponsor for the Cherokee chapter of Main Street Warriors Diesel David, Inc.. Please go check them out at diesel. David.com. As I said, I have a wonderful guest here in studio with me today. Her name is Andrea Young. Welcome, Andrea. Andrea is a certified EOS implementer, and she works with entrepreneurial organizations to help them grow and scale their business. Welcome, Andrea.

Andrea Young: Thanks, Josh. I’m excited to be here.

Joshua Kornitsky: Thank you. I’m so happy to have you. So let’s begin at the beginning. Tell me really, how did you get started in iOS?

Andrea Young: Well, I am a recovering corporate executive, so I spent 20 plus years in corporate America in a strategy, innovation and marketing side, building brands from scratch and then launching those out into different various countries. Um, I would also get brought in to turn around divisions that were stuck or had gone into some decline. And in those cases, I would, um, create a new strategy, get the whole team aligned towards it, rowing in that same direction and execute it. And, um, that turned into massive growth at the same time. Um, I co-founded a business and entrepreneurial business and, um, and I got to see how EOS worked. Uh, it was a total game changer for that business. We tripled our profitability in less than 12 months, doubled our revenue. And more importantly, we got the entire leader, entire team really focused in the same direction. So I saw the power of EOS. Um, and so when I decided to leave the corporate space, it was about, um, you know, how do I help other companies grow? How do I help other leadership teams grow personally and professionally? And that’s really where I’ve been focusing for the last five years.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. I mean, that that makes perfect sense to me. Once you saw the power of it. So out of curiosity, I know there’s a lot of different business operating systems and methodologies. Was there anything particular about EOS that stood out to you?

Andrea Young: Yes. It’s the combination of, um, a vision plus traction. So it takes theory to a very realistic level of being able to actually execute effectively in a company in the most simplest way. And that is where the magic exists, is being able to identify what your vision is, have the traction, the simple discipline, the tools to be able to actually deliver on that vision and at the very same time, be able to create a stronger culture, um, by really, uh, bringing your, or having your, um, uh, leadership team involved in all aspects of that from designing the, the vision to actually making it happen. And that’s where the power exists.

Joshua Kornitsky: And you said a word that I want to ask you about. You said this word simplicity. Um, so where, where does simplicity factor into this? Because when you think when I think about an entrepreneurial business, there anything but yes.

Andrea Young: You know, um, complexity is very expensive. And, uh, you know, I worked with a company that had over 900 SKUs, uh, 12 different leaders, three different sales departments. And they thought that complexity was, was their identity. It’s just, it’s, it’s complicated here. Um, and so we really simplified their focus. We simplified their core messaging and suddenly profit increased. Uh, the team had energy again, growth became intentional. They were focused on the most profitable SKUs, got into some SKU rationalization and really just made a healthier organization. You know, complexity is often a choice and clarity is always a competitive advantage.

Joshua Kornitsky: So that’s simplicity. Perspective. Yeah. I never would have thought of it that way. So does assuming the scale. You said you worked internationally in the corporate role in your life. I imagine that made you an expert in complexity. How has that impacted your ability to teach and coach CEOs with that, with that background coming out of a, out of a very corporate universe?

Andrea Young: Yeah, corporate has the benefit of, of great structure and accountability. And so I’ve been able to take that into the entrepreneurial world or entrepreneurial space, because that’s where a lot of, um, entrepreneurial businesses, um, are, those are, those are the opportunities they’re working in. And so being able to boil it down to the simplest elements, being able to make sure that it’s very clear who’s doing what, who’s on first, who’s on second. Um, and so that type of clarity and simplicity really leads to better growth and higher employee engagement.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay, so so let me ask about what I see as sort of the elephant in the room. I understand you’re a certified EOS implementer. What does that mean? What do you actually do?

Andrea Young: Mhm. Well.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, and I mean that politely. I’m just trying to for anybody hearing this for the first time. Um, I know you said that EOS is this business operating system and methodology, but I want somebody to really be able to grasp and follow.

Andrea Young: Yeah. So I would, um, express it like this. Uh, I help to bridge the gap between vision and execution. Um, I help leadership teams get out of chaos and into clarity.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Andrea Young: Um, most businesses don’t have a strategy problem. They have a structure problem. And so I help them implement EOS, which gives leaders a very simple way to get clear on what they’re doing to get the right people in the right seats and, um, actually execute consistently.

Joshua Kornitsky: So I mean, is it a bunch of complicated proprietary stuff? What what’s the basis for iOS?

Andrea Young: Well, it’s built off of a framework that Gino Wickman, um, wrote and designed. Um, that is a proven system that’s been around for over 15 years. And nearly 300,000 companies are running on iOS.

Joshua Kornitsky: So it’s not just a new idea. No, not not not the flavor of the month.

Andrea Young: Not the flavor of the month. Um, I actually ran iOS, uh, in the business that, uh, that I co-founded. And, um, and that’s where, you know, I, I’ve seen it work, I’ve seen it work, uh, personally. And then of course my clients, um, we’re just getting traction is really creating results.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s, it’s good to know that it’s based on something that’s been around for a while, sort of been tested, been vetted, and that you’ve lived it yourself. That’s got to make a big difference.

Andrea Young: Absolutely. Because, uh, if you can put your, um, your self behind it, then it just creates that much more conviction.

Joshua Kornitsky: Can you share a story outside of your own organization? Where you working with someone to implement us made a real difference to their business?

Andrea Young: Yeah, EOS has the power to do lots of things depending on what you need out of your business. So whether it’s improving people issues or, um, profitability issues or driving revenue or creating some freedom, um, for your yourself. And so, uh, one thing that I discovered is, um, a lot of, a lot of business owners are really facing some big challenges right now. Uh, they’re growing, but it feels harder, not easier. Sure. Uh, their team’s busy, but not necessarily aligned. Uh, and everything still runs through them. And so I had a client who was working over 80 hours a week and still felt like things were really slipping.

Joshua Kornitsky: We got to be incredibly hard to give it that much.

Andrea Young: Yes.

Joshua Kornitsky: And to still feel like you’re running behind it.

Andrea Young: I mean, he felt like it was, uh, he was nearing burnout, right? Um, hadn’t taken a vacation in years. Um, and so in, by implementing iOS, we fixed his system. And, um, you know, most leaders don’t need to work harder. They need to work in a system that works. And so iOS was able to, to transform that for him to give some freedom back. And, and he took a vacation and spent time with his family and things didn’t fall apart back in the office. They continued to operate very efficiently and effectively without him. And that was, uh, a breath of fresh air for him.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, it literally must have been game changing.

Andrea Young: Absolutely.

Joshua Kornitsky: I can only imagine. Yeah. So as you work with your clients, you know, how do you help them handle some of these tough decisions that they’re clearly not accustomed to making? Because it sounds to me like you’re elevating their visibility into some of the challenges that they may have been blind to. So how do you how do you help coach them around, say, people problems?

Andrea Young: Well, we start with making sure you’ve got the right people in the right seats.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, how do you do that?

Andrea Young: We’ve got a few tools in our toolbox. And so, um, one of the first ones is really understanding structure before getting to people. And so getting clear on, we call it an accountability chart instead of an organizational chart. It’s kind of like an org chart on steroids.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Andrea Young: Um, and that accountability chart acts like a mini job description for understanding what the structure is, what, uh, what seats do you need to have within the organization to achieve the vision that you want to get to? And so we outline, um, I help them outline, uh, the roles for each one of those seats. And then only after we’ve designed what the right structure is. We, um, look at who are the right people for those seats and evaluate them using a simple tool called the people analyzer. Do they get it? Do they want it? Do they have the capacity to do that role? And so by doing so, we’re ensuring that we’ve got the right people in the right seats for for that.

Joshua Kornitsky: What happens when you don’t?

Andrea Young: That happens all the time. And sometimes you have to make really hard decisions. Um, you know, I had a client who, uh, like a lot of, um, uh, businesses, when they first start up, they hire friends, they hire family.

Joshua Kornitsky: Whoever they can get their hands on.

Andrea Young: Yeah. And so when we went through this exercise, it became very clear that the friend, uh, in their, their, uh, in their seat, in that seat had this, the seat had outgrown them.

Joshua Kornitsky: Um, okay.

Andrea Young: And they just didn’t have the ability to help them get to the next level.

Joshua Kornitsky: So the organization had more needs than that individual could deliver more. You said when you said they outgrew it.

Andrea Young: Yes.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Andrea Young: Yeah. And so what that meant is she had to make a very tough decision to be, um, to continue to grow the organization. Um, and so I helped to be the, the person to put some clarity on that using some of those iOS tools to help her coach her through that process. Uh, and then to ultimately hire the right person for that seat.

Joshua Kornitsky: So I want to ask something that just occurs to me as we’re talking. You keep saying coach, and in my brain I’m thinking consultant, what’s the difference between a coach and a consultant? Mhm. Because you’re you continually use the word coach.

Andrea Young: Yes. So an EOS implementer, um, as an EOS implementer, I play the role of coach, facilitator and teacher. Um, I’m not a consultant to provide the solutions. The the brilliance is in the room. Um, they know their industry, they know their competitors, they know their products and services. Uh, the very best. And so my job is to help coach, to help bring out that brilliance, um, to help them get aligned to what the right answers are. Um, and quite frankly, to kick them in the butts if they’re, uh, not doing what they say they’re going to do or to, uh, give them a high five when things are going well.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. So literally that sideline coach that that helps the players improve at the game.

Andrea Young: That’s right.

Joshua Kornitsky: So how do you how do you talk to somebody about like the individual you’re talking about earlier that hadn’t been on vacation? How do you convince someone that it’s okay to step away and take a break from their business? Well, I mean, obviously structure’s got to be there. You can’t just decide tomorrow you’re leaving for a week.

Andrea Young: But once we put these systems in place, it gives them some of the comfort. Once you’ve got the right structure, you’re delegating and elevating to the right people.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Andrea Young: You’ve got you’re measuring how things are working for you and holding people accountable. Getting really clear on what the priorities are, um, and improving the communication across the leadership team that builds the confidence, uh, with the owner that they can go away and, um, and enjoy family time or, uh, get away for a much needed, uh, clarity break or vacation, uh, knowing that things are going well at home. And so once we create that system, then, um, uh, we’ve got the tools in place to, to be able to prove it.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and you said earlier, it’s about having the right people in the right seat. Tell me, how does that relate to delegation? Because I have to think that’s critical before you can delegate. Right?

Andrea Young: It is. Absolutely. Um, you know, I used to worry about delegating some of the menial tasks are the things I wasn’t interested in doing. And what I discovered is that there are people out there that would love to do some of those projects. It’s new learning for them. It’s exciting for them. That is a bit of an aha to be able to elevate some of that work. Not everybody’s built to do the same stuff. And so by delegating out some of the tasks, it gives you a better time management. Um, but it also empowers some of your team members to contribute in a better, different way for the company.

Joshua Kornitsky: That makes really, really good sense. And it was not something that I thought about because delegation is scary, right? Letting go of things is scary. That’s why I linked it to having the right people. But it makes perfect sense that if you do have those right people, then then delegating is probably a little less scary.

Andrea Young: Yeah.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah. Um, who’s your ideal client? What types of organizations do you work with or is a good fit for us?

Andrea Young: It’s not any one um industry. It is rather growth minded business owners that are ready to, to level up that they are more afraid of the status quo than they are of change. Um, and so this helps them to, uh, to get there. And so you need a leadership team that’s open minded, that’s honest. Um, ready to do that? I work with a lot of family owned businesses and female owned businesses, um, as well as really, uh, anything from landscaping companies to legal firms. It really works across all different industries and leadership teams. It comes down to that growth mindset being the key component.

Joshua Kornitsky: So is it a good fit for a startup?

Andrea Young: Um, it can be, you need to be, uh, you know, got to a point where you’ve gotten stuck or need some, um, some help. Um, really creating this, just putting the systems in place to grow.

Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, it sounds to me like those systems are beneficial to the organization overall in any event, right. It’s got a, does it help us down the road for people that are evaluating investing in that business?

Andrea Young: Oh, absolutely. It just helps them to be really buttoned up as an organization. So I have worked with startups of a team of two, for example. Um, and this helped them to get the funding that they needed for their business because they were buttoned up in terms of where they were going, how they were going to get there, what the growth plan looked like. Um, so that was helpful. I would say that, uh, the typical client though, tends to be a smaller to mid-sized organization that, um, has gotten to a point where what worked for them before doesn’t work for them now, or there’s some chaos in the mix, or they’re struggling with some of those kind of people challenges that, that now need to, to get resolved. There’s some elephants. You brought up the word elephants. Elephants in the room.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. All right. I mean, that makes sense. So can I ask you kind of a difficult question, but what? There’s a few implementers out there, right? What? What sets you apart from others when it comes to to your approach?

Andrea Young: Yeah. Three things. I am, um, enterprise trained but entrepreneurial savvy. So having spent all that time in corporate, but then also having run my own businesses, um, I integrate strength tools. So I strength based training like working genius or cliftonstrengths.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay.

Andrea Young: Um, and I’m really willing to put those issues on the table. So I build a client trust so that we’re, we’re working in an environment where we’re going to put those elephants in there and we’re going to tackle them and we’re going to come up with ideas or solutions. We don’t dance around problems. We solve them.

Joshua Kornitsky: That must take a great deal of. I’m trying to think of a polite word. I’ll go with guts. To be able to. To stand your ground on that type of thing. To make sure that they’re confronting the issues that they have to confront.

Andrea Young: Yeah. Clarity requires honesty. And that’s where the real growth happens. And so we get to a point where that is, is critical.

Joshua Kornitsky: It makes sense, but it must be uncomfortable at first.

Andrea Young: It can be. Um, but it’s also a sense of, uh, I think in my experience, the clients who go there get the, the, the greatest rewards and become even closer as a leadership team by, by being open and honest with each other.

Joshua Kornitsky: It makes sense. It, it changes heart. Yeah. And, and I imagine you encounter that quite a bit. So if I’m a business owner that’s listening to this right now and I’m feeling stuck. You know, what should they do? What are what are the steps they should take?

Andrea Young: Um, really start by being honest about where you’re at. Um, you know, what is your vision? Do you have the right people? Um, uh, what are your priorities? And if you don’t, then that’s where we need to do some work. And, um, uh, and if you didn’t, one of the biggest aha moments is that you don’t have to do it alone. And so I talked to a lot of business owners that feel like this is all on their shoulders. You don’t have to do it alone. And this, um, system, this process is really team based. And that just helps to drive bigger results to get where you’ve, you know, dreamt of, of turning that business into.

Joshua Kornitsky: That makes perfect sense to me. And what’s the best way for people to reach you if they, if they want to learn more or gain from your knowledge and experience in helping others.

Andrea Young: Well, my business is called Lead Effects, which is all about leadership effectiveness. And the website is the lead effects.com.

Joshua Kornitsky: Okay. And we will share that when we post the podcast. Thanks. So I appreciate you sharing that with me. Um, one last question that I like to ask everybody. What are some of the assumptions people make about working with you or working with us to, to bring this into their business? That might be off track.

Andrea Young: Hmm. Um.

Joshua Kornitsky: So you had said earlier that it’s simple but not easy.

Andrea Young: That’s right. Yeah, it is simple. It’s not easy. It is. Um, um, sometimes this identifies people that are not in the right seats. And so often the team that you start with is not necessarily the team you finish with. Um, it, uh, can, the, the waters can be a little muddy at first before it gets clear, but it needs to be as part of change management in order to get where you want to get to.

Joshua Kornitsky: I think that that’s a perfect closeout and makes it very clear to people that you got to what was it? Winston Churchill said the only way to get through hell is to get through hell. Uh, and it sounds like that’s exactly what this is, that in order to get to the clarity, you got to swim through a little bit of the muddy water.

Andrea Young: Well, we go one step at a time. So, um, well, and I’m here to help them and to guide them through that process.

Joshua Kornitsky: And thank you for bringing that up, because I think that is a big differentiator that, that it sounds like while it is a proven path, it’s not a race.

Andrea Young: No, it is. Uh, it is definitely not a sprint. This is a bit more of a marathon, but I have seen teams get results immediately. And, um, it is part of the journey towards getting to their ultimate goal.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well thank you Andrea. I really appreciate you sharing what you’ve shared with us today. And I know I learned a lot. Um, I do want to remind everybody that today’s episode is brought to you in part by the Community Partner program, the Business RadioX Main Street Warriors defending capitalism, promoting small business, and supporting our local community. For more information, please go to Main Street warriors.org. And a special note of thanks to our title, to our title sponsor for the Cherokee chapter of Main Street Warriors Diesel David, Inc.. Please go check them out at diesel david.com. Again, my name is Joshua Kornitsky. I am your host here at Cherokee Business Radio. My guest has been Andrea Young, certified EOS implementer. If you’re looking to grow or scale your business or it sounds like just get it healthier, she’s the one to reach you. Thank you. Andrea.

Andrea Young: Thanks, Josh.

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Woodstock, Georgia. It’s time for Cherokee Business Radio. Now, here’s your host.

Joshua Kornitsky: Welcome back to Cherokee Business Radio. I’m your host, professional EOS implementer Joshua Kornitsky. And I’ve got a really interesting guest here in the studio that I can’t wait to get to. But before I get started, let me go ahead and tell you that today’s episode is brought to you in part by the Community Partner Program, the Business RadioX Main Street Warriors, defending capitalism, promoting small business, and supporting our local community. For more inforMattion, please go to Mainstreet warriors.org. And a special note of thanks to our title sponsor for the Cherokee chapter of Main Street Warriors Diesel David, Inc. Please go check them out at diesel. David.com. As I said, I’ve got a really interesting guest here in the studio with me today. I want to introduce everybody to Mattt Starosciak, owner of the proven law marketing firm. And Mattt brings a powerful combination of experience and passion into the law firm marketing process. He’s he’s practiced law both in large and small firm environments, and he spent the better part of a decade as a top sales representative at the oldest law marketing company in the world, most recently as the founder of Proven Law Marketing, Mattt has been responsible for client development and revenue growth at some of the nation’s top law firms. In 2017, Mattt wrote the Lawyers Marketing Book, a 300 page comprehensive work on what it takes to be successful in the competitive legal market. Today, Mattt spends his time sharing his knowledge with attorneys who are committed to achieving the very highest level of personal and professional success. Welcome, Matt. I’m so happy to have you here.

Matt Starosciak: Thanks a lot. Great to be here. You made me sound important there. Well, it’s it’s a challenge.

Joshua Kornitsky: A good, solid intro lays that foundation. So this is, uh, this is sort of an intersection of two areas that I’ve always been fascinated by. Um, you can’t be around business as much as I am and not have to at least be aware of the impact of, of having an attorney. Right. And what, what attorneys do for business, never mind your personal life, but marketing has always been a passion of mine. So, so Mattt, how did these two things intersect in your life? Where tell me, tell me how you got here.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, well, probably the way most people get into their professions, which is by mistake, right? You kind of fall into it. But, um, yeah, it was kind of weird for me. I didn’t ever expect to be a marketer. I was fortunate enough, I guess, in two ways. I had a father who was very pro-education and it had it had lifted him out of poverty. And, and he was very much an advocate of getting as much higher education as he could. So his agreement with with my brothers and I was, as long as you want to go to school, I’ll pay for it. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so very fortunate, very blessed in that respect. And then school came relatively easy to me. Um, if I’m honest. So I wasn’t, uh, you know, I wasn’t a Rhodes scholar, but I had good study habits. And so that took me, uh, you know, kind of through undergraduate and law school with relative ease. Um, and so I had those two things going and I just went to school for a long time. I’m not sure that I ever really knew I wanted to be one thing or the other. And then once I got out practicing law, it was pretty evident to me at that point that, you know, I don’t really love this. I’m not really good at it. And so then I started to get into sales and then naturally kind of gravitated towards marketing. So, uh, kind of a combination of those things, but never thought I was going to end up in the marketing world for sure.

Joshua Kornitsky: It certainly sounds like you’ve kind of followed your passions.

Matt Starosciak: I do have a passion for it and I really do enjoy it, I really do. I really, I like helping other people succeed, and when I was a kid, I kind of liked the spotlight more. I think I wanted to be the person succeeding, but as I’ve gotten older and a little longer in the tooth now, I like helping other people reach their goals. And marketing is the avenue to do that.

Joshua Kornitsky: Yeah, there’s definitely a certain sense of satisfaction that you get from helping other people achieve the things they want to achieve. No question. So so let’s talk about first. Who do you serve? What are the are there certain size firms, certain geo location? Who is an ideal client to work with you if they’re an attorney?

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, mostly small firms, mostly small firms. I need to work with clients that can make decisions quickly and can move quickly, and who tend to trust, uh, a little more easily than larger shops. So I do have some firms that are 15 to 20 attorneys, but kind of my sweet spot is smaller firms, solo practitioners, 2 to 5 attorneys somewhere in there, and then geographically anywhere, anywhere in the United States. And I have I have firms in several different states right now, uh, and have worked with firms all over the place and have even done some international work for organizations and law firms that kind of have that reach as well. So.

Joshua Kornitsky: And are you more or less focused, independent, meaning whether they’re property or personal injury, whatever, it doesn’t Mattter from your.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, it doesn’t really Mattter to me. Um, I’ve worked with just about every practice area. I think you could work with or within and, and it doesn’t Mattter. I mean, the goals and the motion a lot of times is the same. The strategies and the implementation, the campaigns will vary wildly, but I think that’s part of what I bring to the table is the ability to customize those solutions to the practice area and the firm’s goals. And, and so I don’t limit it based on a certain practice area. Some are certainly harder to market firms than than others for sure. But.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, so let’s dive in on that. What are, what are some of the biggest challenges you see now that perhaps are New in the universe that you weren’t seeing over the course of your career advising these firms?

Matt Starosciak: Well, I think there’s several. I think competition one, I think competition is greater than it’s ever been. You know, we all see the firms kind of the mega advertisers who spend millions and millions a month in advertising. But then you have kind of the second tier that people don’t think about very often, which are firms that spend an awful lot of money marketing. They don’t quite have the name recognition as the others, but they’re still out there and, and you’re still competing against them if you’re in that practice area and in that geography. And then obviously you have a bunch of small firms with smaller budgets that are trying to compete as well. But when you bring all that together, it’s a lot of competition and much more so than it was, I think even 15 or or ten years ago.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s interesting.

Matt Starosciak: I would say that’s the number one thing is the competition.

Joshua Kornitsky: And in how do you help your clients differentiate themselves? What. What makes one attorney appeal to someone more than another? And I know that’s a very broad question, but just for some examples.

Matt Starosciak: Well, you have to do that, right? Because if you can’t compete on budget and I don’t suggest that firms do, you know, if somebody’s outspending you 20 to 1, you can’t play their game. Right? So there’s got to be a very good strategy. The firm has to know who they are. The expectations have to Mattch up. You know if a firm has a $10,000 a month budget, their expectations as to what that’s going to do need to be realistic. And you and you really do need to have that extra. What does differentiate us? And I think a lot of that goes into the intake process, the client experience, um, how potential clients or prospective clients are handled. All of that goes into an effective marketing program. Because if you’re, if you’re not going to get those things right and you have to compete on budget or just trying to be smarter, uh, you’re in trouble, I think as a law firm these days.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and you just put your finger on something that that rings a bell in my brain, right? That, that intake process. Because regardless of, of the approach, if you have successfully gotten someone to pick up the phone or to send an email or to submit a form, and then they get to the first point of contact and that ball gets dropped, however, that ball gets dropped. You’ve now wasted probably an excellent an exponential amount of money, because now you’ve got to go convince somebody else to do the same thing. So how do you do you work with your clients on that onboarding process to help bring more value and help broaden their understanding of it?

Matt Starosciak: I do, I do, um, much more than I would prefer to if I’m honest, but it is the thing I would change the most at my firm. So if he took my firms and you put them in a bucket and you said, what’s the number one thing you would change? It would be their intake process. And I wouldn’t have been able to say that years ago. And it kind of looks in a way like you’re pushing the blame and the marketing is not working well enough. But what what a lot of these tools have taught us now is how bad some of the intake processes are at law firms. And it’s probably every business, but they don’t do a very good job at that. So it’s the number one thing I would change. I’m very involved in it in my firms. I almost make it a condition now of working with them is to at least evaluate the intake process and then hopefully to improve it along the way. If I told you some of the things that happened at my firms, you would be shocked. Maybe you wouldn’t be shocked, and you’re having your background and your business. Joshua. But it’s shocking nonetheless.

Joshua Kornitsky: I mean, the bottom line is either you gather the relevant inforMattion or you don’t. And it starts with answering the phone, as dumb as that is.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. And it doesn’t always happen. I have firms right now that don’t answer the phone live. I have firms right now whose folks don’t know what the firm does and what they don’t do. They can’t answer simple questions, common questions. And so, um, I don’t know why that’s such a neglected item in law firms. I’ve pondered it a lot. I’ve spoken on it a lot. I’ve trained a lot on it, and I don’t know that I have a great appreciation for the reason why it’s ignored and so poor. But it is. It really is. And there’s nothing worse than being a marketer and having the stress and accountability of bringing in the business and then having it squandered at the door.

Joshua Kornitsky: Someone’s ringing the bell and nobody’s answering.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, it’s a and it’s a terrible thing for the firm, like you said, because it’s so expensive. I mean, some of the leads that my firm’s developed, there are $1,000 a lead when you add in the cost to, to maybe do search engine marketing or however you’re going to develop that lead. And then you add in my cost and you add in the other costs associated with it. A lot of them are anywhere from 500 to $1000 a lead, some even more than that. And so when you have that opportunity available to you, you’ve got to do everything you can to, to close it.

Joshua Kornitsky: So this is an oversimplification, but is it just finding the right perspective client? Or is it more than just if I’m a personal injury attorney? Finding everybody that had a car accident last week. Is it more than just the ideal client profile?

Matt Starosciak: Well, I think it varies by firm. I mean, obviously a personal injury attorney. They’re looking for, you know, somebody who’s injured by another person and there’s significant damages, right? I mean, they’re their ideal prospect or prospective client is pretty simple. But then you have other much more sophisticated folks. I have firms that represent healthcare professionals that are having licensing issues and stuff. And, and so that’s a little bit different criteria than what you.

Joshua Kornitsky: So that’s a much harder person to find.

Matt Starosciak: I imagine a harder person to find can be a person who vets the attorney more. You know, the average person doesn’t vet their attorneys like you might think they do. Um, and I think that’s a thing that’s lost on a lot of law firm owners is they think somebody’s doing a bunch of research before they call their firm, and they’re really not. So that client profile for them varies draMattically, but it’s it’s incredibly important to understand who that target is and how you should treat them when they contact your firm.

Joshua Kornitsky: I couldn’t agree more. So broadly speaking, and obviously it depends on what your needs are. But where do most clients find an attorney? If I don’t know somebody, if I don’t have a buddy or a friend who says, no, call this person. You know, I’ve used them before. Where do most people find an attorney?

Matt Starosciak: I think the internet, obviously, you know, it’s where we find everything, right? I think the internet is a is a big deal. It’s funny you say, if I don’t know somebody who knows an attorney, a lot of folks don’t want to go to their friends or their family.

Joshua Kornitsky: It depends on what the issue.

Matt Starosciak: That’s exactly right. Right. And so a lot of legal issues are embarrassing. They’re touchy, you know. And so what we’ll find is that some of the best clients that have referral sources and opportunities end up on the internet, but I think the internet’s a big way. We’ve seen a growth in in kind of more traditional marketing, like billboards and signage. You know, you’ve, I think, been in the Atlanta area for some time. I’ve been here 20 years. And when I was here 20 years ago, there were two law firms doing billboards. And now almost every bill billboard face has a law firm on it. So we’ve kind of seen that drag toward more traditional marketing. I think as the internet has become more and more competitive.

Joshua Kornitsky: I’m not giving away free advertising. I will simply tell you, I live in North Cobb and in North Cobb. There’s a Cartersville attorney who has so many billboards that even when I’m on backroads, I see them and. And I can’t imagine what their spend must be to get that type of penetration, they must own a billboard companies. All I’m saying.

Matt Starosciak: Well, it’s a lot. It’s a lot. And that firm you’re talking about, they’re in several states. So you’ll see their boards in South Carolina and North Carolina and Florida. Yeah. So it’s uh, but yeah, and that’s what I mean. If you’re going to try to compete against that kind of spend and messaging and everything else that that firm gets. Right. I think, um, you better have a really good game plan and a good implementation and a good system of measurement.

Joshua Kornitsky: So this is something I encounter all the time. I can meet a fantastic attorney. I can meet a fantastic Hvac technician or owner. Being great at your job doesn’t mean that you’re great at all your jobs, right? And often, particularly when it comes to iOS, a brilliant attorney is not necessarily a brilliant, a brilliant business person. So what I often encounter is, is that there’s a lot of assumptions that get made about how business gets done. What are some of the assumptions that that people make as, as a firm that they think, oh, everybody does this or everybody doesn’t do that? What are what are the misconceptions that you encounter with the firms you work with or when you meet them, I guess?

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. And I think that we’ve kind of covered two of them. One is that their intake process is better than it is. I think most law firm owners, business owners will think that their people are doing a better job in that area than they actually are.

Joshua Kornitsky: It sounds like they don’t think about it at all, actually.

Matt Starosciak: Well that’s true. That’s true too. And I think, you know, it depends on who they have up front and everything else. But I think that’s a big misconception. Um, I think kind of who their ideal client is sometimes is actually confusing. I mean, they obviously, if you ask them who’s your ideal client, they could tell you, right? But I have law firms who, let’s say, practice in personal injury, and they will tell me that certain cases aren’t worth much. And I’ll have another client I work with who is crushing it on those cases. Yes. Um, and two come to mind Dram shop cases, malicious prosecution. I mean, those are things that negligent security, not so much here in Georgia now, but in other states, you know, those are areas where you’ll have some firms say those cases aren’t any good, and then you’ll have other firms that are absolutely crushing it with it. When I say crushing it, I mean life changing verdicts and settlements in those areas. And it’s not just in personal injury. So I think some misconceptions about the opportunity that’s out there. Um, I think misconceptions about the marketing process in general, I think most firms, their strategy is to make one off decisions when it comes to their marketing.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, let me stop you right there because isn’t that really the biggest piece of value you bring is strategy? That’s right. Because I can I can be an attorney and decide I’m going to buy some billboards and do some mailers. That’s not a strategy. Those are tactics. And, and if I’m not driving towards a larger goal, am I just isn’t it just sort of a waste of time and money?

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. Thank God there are enough firms out there that realize that they’re not doing it correctly, that I can make a living, you know, and a decent living up to this point. So there’s no question. Um, that is what they need. They need a strategy. They need implementation. They need good conversion. They need measurement, you know, all of those things. And I mean, those are things that you touch on in the iOS business nonstop, because you could never do those things well enough. There’s always an opportunity to improve those, and nobody knows more about that than you do. But I think there’s misconceptions about that. I think there’s misconceptions about how far a budget goes and what you can actually accomplish with it.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s that’s probably.

Matt Starosciak: You know.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s probably one of the biggest because unless you’re involved in it day in, day out, knowing how much something costs is, is speculative at best.

Matt Starosciak: It is. And I hear.

Joshua Kornitsky: I don’t know what’s a billboard cost, and I’m not asking that. I’m saying if you ask any three people, you’re going to probably get anything from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand. But I believe billboards are negotiated by contract length more than anything, right? So using that as an example, you can make a multi-thousand dollar mistake.

Matt Starosciak: Well, there’s no question. And then the real issue is if I put a billboard up, what can I expect to get from it? Or if I put ten up, what do I expect and where should I put those ten and how are the contracts negotiated and how does it. So yeah, I mean, there’s a lot to know. And, uh, you know, lawyers are smart people, right? They don’t like to think they don’t know something, you know, they, they like to believe that they know it. I think I had a client of mine one time and a good friend. He said, you know, the problem with smart people is they think what they know is all there is to know. And I think there’s observation. Yeah. And I I’ve always remembered it. I mean, he probably said those words to me 20 years ago and I think that’s right. And look, I’ve been guilty of that in my career too, where, you know, thinking I understand something because I’m smart enough to understand other things and you just don’t. So, um, I do, I think the smart law firms now are looking at it and saying, hey, look, I need a marketing expert. I need a fractional CMO. You know, I need somebody who can come in here and direct me and it’s going to cost me several thousand dollars a month, but I would certainly waste that much if I tried to do it on my own.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and I imagine that when a firm gets to the point where they realize they need help, right? Because it’s, it’s basic Matth that that I’m not bringing in enough to pay my bills. So I need more. Um, when, when they reach that point, understanding the difference between tactical versus strategic, uh, has got to be the game changer, right? Because just random efforts of marketing, are they effective?

Matt Starosciak: No, I never in a vacuum. I’ll give you an example. I have a firm and this goes back again many years. A lot of my examples do unfortunately. Uh, now that I’m getting into the later years of my career. But, you know, they said at one time that they had bought an advertisement that hung over the water fountain at a local gym. So it was a workout facility or CrossFit or something like that. And they had bought a, an advertisement that was available and placed over the water fountain. And they said, you know, their comment to me was, you know, we bought that, um, you know, several years ago we tried that and we didn’t get anything out of it. And my answer was, well, what did you think you were going to get out of it? Sure. Like, did you think you were going to put that sign up over the fountain? And all of a sudden, all these people were going to be calling you for divorces and child custody issues. You know, what was your expectation? And the answer is they didn’t have any expectation, right? They made a one off decision. It was placed in front of them. It looked good. They liked the placement. And so they put the advertising up, but they had no expectation as to what it was going to do or the purpose it was going to serve, or how it was going to fit into their larger marketing strategy. So you’re right when you say, you know, implementation without strategy, that’s a failing proposition.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, and that brings me to really the question that I wanted to drive towards, which is how, um, how does data, how does data drive the outcomes of what you do with your clients? Because we, we have an old saying, the saying always was what gets measured gets managed. But what I’ve learned over the last ten years as an US implementer is what gets mismeasured gets mismanaged. So if I’m looking at the wrong thing, I can re and I can assure myself that I’m highly successful if I’m measuring the wrong thing.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, I don’t think there’s any question. I agree with that statement 100% on the management and the missing, uh, you know, for me, I’m probably less scientific about the measurement than other folks in my industry. In other words, other folks in my industry probably dive more into the metrics than I do. Now, that’s not to say I don’t pay attention to the metrics, but I probably have a handful of metrics that I pay attention to and that I think are critical to making good decisions. Whereas I know other folks who do what I do and they’re looking.

Joshua Kornitsky: At you get analysis paralysis. I’m yeah, I’m all about the simplicity. I think 5 to 15 numbers will tell you the health of anything.

Matt Starosciak: That’s right. And I think but but I think the answer to your question is a lot of my stuff is based on experience and feel and understanding of what I’ve seen in the past. You know, like, again, I’m not the smartest guy out there. I’ve proven that many times in my life, but I’ve seen a lot. I’ve had a front row seat to watching law firms make the best decisions and make the worst decisions. And so the advantage I have at this stage in my career is I bring that background. And so for a lot of my clients, it’s that it’s the measurement and the metrics and the stuff as well. But like you said, you know, if you know 15 metrics, you know, a lot. Absolutely. And I think maybe even less than that in the world that I, that I belong to.

Joshua Kornitsky: Well, so there’s, there is an elephant in the room and I have to ask about it because it’s something that that manifests in every organization these days. How has a how has artificial intelligence, machine learning, large language models? How has all of that impacted what you do? And the follow up question is, does it make the smart people who think because they know something, they know everything, have a false sense of security.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, well, I’ll forget that second half. So come back to it because that’s a great question. But yeah, I mean, I think AI is changing everything. I was one of those folks who six months a year ago was saying, uh, I’m not sure that this is going to do what everybody says. And it sounds like a way to get folks to spend a lot of their money. But I think the reality is it’s impacting law firms in a very, very significant way. And I think in two ways. One is operationally, which I think it’s impacting everybody that way. And I don’t work in that world very much. So I touch on it a little bit with intake and things we’ve talked about. But operationally, how they do their their work on a day to day basis, how they draft their briefs, how they prep for court. It’s going to it’s going to make incredible changes for them. And I think efficiencies for them in that area from a marketing perspective, more in my wheelhouse, I think probably the number one thing AI is going to change is how the search engines work. I mean, Google had a monopoly for many, many years. They were the only player in town really. Um, there were some other folks who kind of nibbled around the edges, but they had a monopoly. Their algorithm was based on some intelligence, but not what we see today.

Matt Starosciak: Right. And so what we’re seeing is a change in one where people are going to run their searches when they’re looking for a law firm and what that inforMattion looks like. And I think that is going to be a massive, massive change. It already is a massive change in how law firms operate and market on the web. And more than that, it’s going to create an opportunity for some firms to get back into that game and really make some progress on their business development. And so that’s very exciting for me, and it should be exciting for the firms as well. I have the luxury to work with some of the best firms. Like, you know, I don’t work with the largest spending firms by any means, by any means, but I work with some really great firms, and for them, it’s going to be a phenomenal opportunity because AI is smart and AI is able to determine who the best firm is now. And so it’s not just how many keywords can you stuff into a page. Sure. It’s who is the best firm at this? And for those firms out there, if you’re one of those firms out there where you really are kind of the leading firm in your market and your practice area, there’s going to be a lot of opportunities with AI for you.

Joshua Kornitsky: That’s that’s great. And then just to swing back around, uh, is, is AI giving some firms a false sense of security about their own effectiveness with regards to their marketing approach.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, I don’t know so much about that. I mean, it might give me some false sense of in my own business.

Joshua Kornitsky: And I feel like your your experience is sort of the vet, right? Because I can I can find a hundred sources that will tell me that these things may work. But if you have put two of those things in place in this market and know that in Atlanta they don’t. All of the AI guidance in the world is irrelevant because it’s going to start every sentence by saying, gee, Mattt, you’re so smart.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. That’s right. It talks to you. It compliments you. Right.

Joshua Kornitsky: Boy, you’re looking good today.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. I know, it’s a pretty amazing how they built that to do that, you know, and then.

Joshua Kornitsky: Only because we want it.

Matt Starosciak: That’s right. And I even I’ve even asked it a couple times like, are you complimenting me? And it’s like, not really, but you’re on the right track, you know? Yeah, it’s, it’s a pretty amazingly smart tool. Um, but, but I think going back to your question, I think there is going to be a little bit of overreliance. There’s going to be a little bit of the pendulum’s going to swing too far for law firms in one way or the other. I mean, it’ll be the greatest thing ever for sales reps who are selling marketing solutions and law firms. It’ll be like selling SEO. It’ll be like selling social media. I mean, those are effective things for law firms, but the number of firms that have wasted money on those over the years is absolutely Incredible. And so AI is going to pose the same danger, I think, for a lot of firms out there.

Joshua Kornitsky: I have found this is a fascinating discussion. Let me ask the most important question, Mattt. How does somebody get a hold of you if they want to do business with you, or at least have a discussion to learn more?

Matt Starosciak: Yeah, I would say you can go to my website. My contact inforMattion is on there. It’s proven law marketing.com. If you go there, you can read about me and kind of the work that I do and some client testimonials. And then obviously my direct number and my email are on the website as well.

Joshua Kornitsky: And we’ll publish that with your permission when we publish the, the blog so that people just can click on it and get right to you for sure.

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. And, but, you know, I’m a, I’m a small operation, so I’m, I’m happy to talk to anybody. There’s not a lot of red tape to get through to me. If you, if you call me and leave a message, uh, because you don’t get me directly, I’ll call you back. Same thing with email.

Joshua Kornitsky: So last question I’ll ask what’s, uh, what’s one piece of advice you would give to any firm that’s hearing this thinking, well, you know, I don’t know. Does this make sense for us? What’s, uh, what’s some guidance you might offer them?

Matt Starosciak: Yeah. I would say figure out what your goals are. You know, figure out what your goals are. And sometimes they’re financial, they’re almost always somewhat financial. But what are your real goals? What do you want your life to look like? What do you want your work life to look like? What do you want your legacy to look like? If that’s a part of it, but define your goals because it’s difficult to make good decisions in anything. And you know this from all your iOS work.

Joshua Kornitsky: You’re tying me up beautifully. If you need help defining your goals, I’m the guy.

Matt Starosciak: Well, that’s right, and I think if you don’t know that and look, I’m not a great goal setter myself, right? So I do. There are certain things I do very well, and there are certain things I don’t do as well. But the reality is if you don’t know where you want to go, it’s really hard to get there. When you’re marketing a law firm and probably in many other areas too. So kind of figure that out. And if you’re not sure what your goals are, what they should be, or how realistic they could be. Then. Then talk to somebody who works in that space. And whether it’s me or Carl Downie or somebody else who’s out there who does good work, you know, talk to those folks and they can help steer you. And then you can decide the next steps to take after that.

Joshua Kornitsky: Great guidance. Thank you. Mattt, I really appreciate you joining me today.

Matt Starosciak: It was wonderful being on the show.

Joshua Kornitsky: My absolutely our pleasure. So my guest today again is Mattt Stairs. He is the owner of Proven Law Marketing. He brings a powerful combination of experience and passion to law firm marketing, to the law firm marketing process. He’s practiced law in both small and large firm environments, and he spent the better part of a decade as a top sales representative for the oldest lawyer marketing company in the world. Most important for you to remember that as the author of the lawyer marketing book, which I presume is available on Amazon and other location, it is. You can connect with Mattt directly, but you can also get the to go version to read when you get home, and Mattt will be happy to help you out with any questions you have. Thank you again, Mattt. It was a genuine pleasure.

Matt Starosciak: Joshua was great. Thanks so much.

Joshua Kornitsky: And also want to remind everybody that today’s episode was brought to you in part by the Community Partner Program, the Business RadioX Main Street Warriors, defending capitalism, promoting small business, and supporting our local community. For more inforMattion, please go to Main Street warriors.org. And a special note of thanks to our title sponsor for the Cherokee chapter of Main Street Warriors Diesel David, Inc.. Please go check them out at diesel. David.com. My guest today was Mattt Staroscik. My name is Joshua Kornitsky. I am a professional iOS implementer and your host on Cherokee Business Radio. Thanks for joining us. We’ll see you next time.