Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Veterans Business Radio, brought to you by ATL vets, providing the tools and support that help veteran owned businesses thrive. For more information, go to ATL vetsource. Now here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of Veterans Business Radio and this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor ATL vets. Without them, we wouldn’t be sharing these important stories. Atl vets, inspiring veterans to build their foundation of success and empowering them to become the backbone of society after the uniform. For more information, go to Atlanta Vets. To this show we have Robert Capovilla. He is with Capovilla and Williams. Welcome.

Robert Capovilla: Hey, Lee. Thank you for having me.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about Capovilla and Williams. How are you serving folks?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So, uh, Capovilla. Williams, uh, is a law firm. Uh, our headquarters is in Woodstock, Georgia, and my law partner and I, uh, Mickey Williams started it after active duty days. Uh, had come to a close. And, um, quite frankly, we exist to help veterans and service members and federal employees all over the world with their legal problems. So a veteran owned, veteran operated business, I think, got about 35 employees now. And I think about, uh, 30 or so of them are veterans.

Lee Kantor: And so what was kind of the genesis of the idea? Were you both working in other firms and then decided to kind of team up like, well, how did this come about?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So Mickey and I were both JAG officers. You know, Mickey’s career was different than mine. He had started his army career after nine over 11, went to Ranger School, was an airborne Ranger, did several deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and then he became a JAG officer after he left the infantry. I graduated law school, applied for the JAG Corps, so I went the more traditional route. Commissioned in 2012. And so when we were both defense attorneys in the United States Army, so we would represent service members who were accused of crimes. Mickey and I were in the same region, so we had some trainings together. A friendship struck up. And then quite frankly, we had a similar heart and similar passion for our service members, and we weren’t exactly pleased with how they were being treated throughout the legal process. And we made the decision at that point to resign our commissions together and start Capdeville and Williams.

Lee Kantor: So you went right from the service to starting the firm and then focusing on kind of a similar work, except for civilian officers in the civilian world.

Robert Capovilla: Yeah, that’s exactly right. We had a couple stops along the way before we formed Capovilla Williams. We worked, um, uh, with another attorney and then another law firm, and then, um, went in on our own around 2020, right around the time of Covid. Um, and we’ve been pedal to the metal ever since then.

Lee Kantor: So what type of work are you doing right now? Like, so a veteran comes to you for any type of situation or is it something related to their service?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So we’ve got, uh, as it relates to veterans, uh, we handle veteran disability cases, uh, from all over the country. So, um, regarding veterans, if, if a veteran, um, has injuries during service, like a lot of us veterans have, uh, and they get out and they apply for VA disability and they get denied, um, they hire us to handle their appeals. And so, um, we’ve got a wonderful team on the disability side. Um, like I said, all of them are are either veterans or spouses of veterans. Um, and we work with our vets to try to get the rating up to 100% and make sure that they’re compensated, uh, really for those injuries that are service connected, um, that stay with them, uh, a long time after their service.

Lee Kantor: And then, uh, about what percentage of veterans need kind of help in this area? Uh, is this something that is, uh, you know, really a pressing need where there’s more and more veterans that just aren’t getting their benefits and they need to go to a third party in order to get them.

Robert Capovilla: Absolutely. Um, it’s, uh, veterans all over the world meaning, quite frankly, um, and that’s because of a couple reasons, right? First, um, while the VA, uh, does their best to be efficient, uh, when it comes to, to the disability claims, and they do their best to help the veteran. Um, the bottom line is the process can be very convoluted. It’s very paperwork heavy. Uh, it can be complicated at different points. Uh, and so a lot of times when a veteran submits his claim for disability, he doesn’t fully understand the complexity of the process. Uh, certain documents aren’t submitted that should be submitted. Um, and that leads to denial. Or the VA can just summarily look at a case and say, well, look, um, we don’t think this is service connected. Um, and they get denied. And so, uh, for the infantrymen out there, uh, for our Marines or sailors, our airmen, um, uh, those folks that have had any injuries, really, during the course of their service, um, that it’s still impacting them. They come to us after their case is denied. Um, and we work really hard to, uh, try to make sure they get the benefits they deserve. So, uh, nearly every I encourage every veteran who has ever served to apply for disability because, quite frankly, um, you might not even know something is is anything more than than, uh, saw um, when you’re a little younger and then all of a sudden the years go on and you realize you can’t stand up straight, your feet hurt, your ankles hurt. Um, and you don’t quite recognize the impact, that the service has had on me with some of the things that our service members are called to do.

Lee Kantor: Now, is this one of those situations where service members are like, you know, kind of rub some dirt on it and I’ll tough it out. I’m not I don’t want to ask for help, and they’re just missing out on a bunch of services and care that they could be getting that could really improve the quality of their life.

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So there’s there’s a few parts to that question, right. So first, when you’re when you’re still serving the advice I give everybody is for every ache and pain that you have, go and get medical treatment for it. Um, because you don’t know what is. You don’t know how your body’s going to react and respond five years from now, ten years from now. So a lot of our guys walked around with heavy rucksacks, jumped out of airplanes, spent a long time overseas, and they’ve got a document that while they’re in that that’s going to make their lives a lot easier when they get out and they get that veteran status. Um, but to your point, you know, there is a culture, certainly in combat arms where, hey, you know, if you’re in pain, you don’t want to. You don’t tell anybody about it because you don’t want to be the guy that’s sitting out during PT when when the rest of your battle buddies are training. And we see that a lot, you know, really across across all the branches. Um, uh, heck, I was like that. Um, there were a lot of times when I had, uh, pain during my service. And you don’t want to be the guy that’s not training. And so you just, you know, grit through it. Not to mention, um, I think that, uh, the, uh, the active duty military medical facilities and the services provided have certainly come a long way. But for anybody who served, you know, that, um, a lot of times the prescription is just take some ibuprofen and ice it, and that might help the pain, but it doesn’t always treat the underlying issues. So, um, yeah, a lot of these guys and gals, man, they, um, they want to serve. They want to they want to do their part, and they don’t want to be hindered by injuries. And that can cause them problems when they get out, when that back doesn’t heal up. And if they didn’t get the treatment that they needed while they were on the active side. You know, um, that’s where we can come in and, and, uh, help build the case.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you think that, uh, some of this lack of care or lack of sufficient care contributes to the high suicide rates among veterans?

Robert Capovilla: I do, I do. Um, you know, I as I said, I think that, um, military medicine has come a long way. I think the, um, the medical care provided by the VA, in particular the mental health services, have come a long way over the years. Um, that being said, I think it’s well short of, uh, of where it should be. Um, a lot of our veterans, uh, leave service with the, uh, scars of their service, and that can be physical and mental. Um, and, uh, that’s particularly one of the reasons why you see a high suicide rate with our veterans, I think, is because, um, there’s not the care that they need both when they’re on the active duty side. Because, again, you don’t want to be the guy that’s causing you unit problems. Um, and the care that they need when they become, uh, when they get a veteran status. Uh, a lot of folks that listen to this show can relate that if you call in with a problem to the V.A., sometimes you’re waiting two, three, four, five, six, eight, ten weeks before you’re seen. And I do think that’s a contributing factor.

Lee Kantor: Now, what do you think of the the G HB 108 bill, the save act. Um, it what just share your thoughts on that because, um, I think that’s important uh, issue that maybe veterans aren’t aware of. Yeah.

Robert Capovilla: So, um, here at Capella Williams, we’re in direct opposition to that bill being passed. Um, we think it’s very, very, very important to make sure that the, um, the folks that are going to be helping our service members through the disability process are accredited, uh, that they’re trained, um, and that they’re seeking the best interests of the veteran themselves. Um. What? That bill. Uh. What? I’m afraid that Bill will do if it’s passed is, um. I’m afraid that the veterans going to be taken advantage of. I’m afraid that we’re going to see folks that are not trained in this, that are not accredited, uh, that don’t have the necessary qualifications helping our veterans. Um, and quite frankly, what we’ve seen is that veterans are spending money up front, not getting the services they need, when in reality, um, what should be happening is, uh, the attorneys like myself or the law firms, uh, like I own, should not be getting paid, uh, unless the claim is won. Um, and so what I’m afraid of is that our veterans, um, are going to be taken advantage of, uh, because, quite frankly, a lot of them are in vulnerable positions, and they can be taken advantage of. And so, uh, I think the bill is a very bad piece of legislation. I think the people in Georgia need to be, uh, tuned in to the dangers that it can cause our veterans if of his past.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you mind kind of giving folks an overview of what it’s supposed to do? I mean, this thing is called the Safeguarding American Veteran Empowerment Act, and it’s one of those names where you’re like, well, of course we’d want to safeguard American veterans like and empower them. So can you share maybe what the spirit of it is and why you feel that kind of when you dig a few layers deep, you can see that there’s some flaws to what they’re trying to do.

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So from my perspective, to help a veteran with a claim, you’ve got to be accredited. You know, you’ve got to go through the process of being verified. You’ve got to have the right credentials. And I also believe passionately that when it comes to disability work, um, veterans should not be paying out of pocket for legal help. And what I’m afraid the effects of the bill are going to do is it’s going to really dilute some of those areas. Um, that I think are important. Um, I, I’m concerned that our veterans are going to be out of pocket, uh, paying money for services from folks who are not qualified. Um, and my concern about that is, is and we’ve seen some of this where veterans will call us and say, I’ve dropped thousands of dollars and I haven’t seen any action. Um, that’s my concern. We’ve got to have these protections for the service members and more, more specifically, the veterans in place to make sure that they’re not being taken advantage of. And what the bill, from my perspective, uh, what I think it’s going to do is I think it’s going to lead to a number of veterans having to come out of pocket for expenses that they should not have to come out of pocket for. And while it’s got a nice and fancy name that makes it sound like, hey, this isn’t the best interest of our veterans, um, I think it’s I think it’s got some real dangers to it.

Robert Capovilla: Um, the bottom line is veterans should only be represented by people who, number one, are credentialed and qualified, and number two, who are only accepting payment if the case is one. And that’s the way that it works 20% of the back pay from the disability claim. That’s all that we ever take. And that’s all that should ever be taken. Um, outside of that, uh, I get concerned that our veterans are going to be taken advantage of. And quite frankly, I’ve seen that, um, and some folks listening to this might say, well, you know, uh, Rob, you run a business. Isn’t it nice to be paid up front? Sure. This is a little bit in opposition to what would potentially be good for my business. But the fact of the matter is, I don’t like the bill. Um, I think that we need to keep this a very clean process. I think it needs to be run. I think these veterans should be helped by only accredited people. Um, and quite frankly, I think law firms like mine should only be compensated, uh, in the VA disability realm if we win.

Lee Kantor: And then the accreditation is, uh, the people that are accredited aren’t only lawyers, right? Aren’t there other, uh, groups that are accredited to help veterans in this area?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Um, there’s, uh, you don’t have to be a lawyer, uh, to do it. Um, you, you know, there’s folks out there that are veterans themselves that do it. Some of them are very good at doing it. Um, and so it’s not specifically it’s not doesn’t have to be lawyer specific, but we do have to make sure we have standards in place. Right. Um, and we’ve got to make sure that the people that are doing this work are, are there to help the, the veteran themselves, um, and not just there to line their pockets. Of course, you know, we’re a little different because every, every disability claim we take is handled not only by somebody accredited to do it, but is also a lawyer, uh, because, quite frankly, um, lawyers know how to build cases. We understand the value of evidence. We understand how to look at a case, how to build a case, how to develop a theme and theory of a case. Um, and look, if sometimes these disability cases have to go before hearing, you know, before administrative judges and in hearings, um, and, you know, lawyers are lawyers at least should be pretty good at handling themselves in a quasi judicial environment. But to your point, no, there’s plenty of good advocates out there that are not attorneys. Um, but this bill doesn’t really impact that too much. Um, the issue with the bill is, uh, my concerns are we got to make sure whoever’s doing this is properly vetted and that there’s there’s no money being exchanged out front.

Lee Kantor: Right, because otherwise it’s the Wild West. And you’re going to find these people that are just taking advantage of all the stuff you were saying earlier about, oh, it takes weeks to be seen and, and all this stuff, and they’re going to make these promises that just aren’t realistic to take advantage of a vulnerable group.

Robert Capovilla: That’s right. You know, give me here’s how it goes. Oh, sure. I’ll handle your your disability claim. Give me 5500 bucks up front. Well, that’s not really how we do things. And, um, I don’t think it should be done that way. Um, again, um, if you if a veteran hires us and we lose the case, right, we don’t get them. One more percentage of disability. We should not be compensated for that. It’s just that simple. Um, if we win the case, well, then. Hey, listen. Yeah, the VA says we’re entitled to 20%. Uh. That’s fair. That compensates us for our time, because a lot of these folks are our clients for, you know, eight, ten, 12, 15, 24 months and sometimes longer. But the idea that there’s not going to be the necessary protections in place for the veteran that is, you know, should be concerning to not just the veteran community in Georgia, uh, but quite frankly, to, um, everybody in Georgia.

Lee Kantor: So, uh, the bottom line for you is to, uh, is it to vote no on GA HB 108?

Robert Capovilla: Absolutely. Without question.

Lee Kantor: Um, now, what’s it like when, uh, a veteran like, they’re done with their service. They have issues. Um, how quickly should they come to you or somebody on your team? Like, is this something that the day after they’re knocking on your door and saying, hey, uh, or should they take a stab at trying to get the benefits themselves? Like what? How what’s the best way to onboard a new client for you?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, and so we only take the cases where the veteran’s already been denied, right. Um, and that’s really, from my perspective, what the rules allow now, um, if, if somebody, every veteran now who, uh, gets out before they get out, they get a class, um, they get a class that talks about VA and how to do it and how to how to apply. Uh, and those classes are pretty good. That being said, um, we routinely routinely help veterans, uh, free of charge, uh, who call in who are in the application process. So they’ve not been denied yet. Right? They’re still in the process of applying. Uh, and, uh, free of charge. We sit down and we’ll go through the case, uh, with the veteran. Um, really talk to them about what they’re experiencing, what the issues are. Uh, and we’ll provide guidance, um, because, quite frankly, um, we don’t want a veteran to have to appeal, uh, a disability case. Um, if they don’t have to, um, if they can win on the first time around and get the compensation they deserve, then that’s, uh, fantastic. And, um, we’re routinely, uh, helping folks do that, and we don’t take any fees for that, um, because it’s not the right thing to do. Um, you know, part of our mission is to help veterans. And, uh, that doesn’t mean, um, that, um, you know, we we have to take compensation for every case. We’re happy to help and guide through the process. Uh, and then, of course, if they’re denied, um, we’re able to, um, we’re able to sign them up as clients.

Lee Kantor: And that’s, um, that’s so important for veterans to understand. Like, like you were saying earlier, this process might seem simple, but there are some things that you just don’t know, what you don’t know. And when your people have seen lots and lots of these things, they know where kind of the danger is. And if you screw this sentence up or you don’t check this box, it could make the difference. And to have somebody that’s an expert on this to get it right the first time, at least get a good swing at it, then you’re increasing your chances of a successful outcome. And then to have you kind of as a backstop in case it doesn’t work out, then you have a way to kind of, uh, you know, take a second swing at it. I mean, that’s very generous on your part. Yeah.

Robert Capovilla: I mean, listen, it’s part of what we do. Um, I, uh, Mickey and I got into disability work, uh, because, quite frankly, um, after my service, I was starting to, um, experience some different things, and, um, my, uh, claimant got denied. And here I was, a JAG officer, uh, trained to practice law by the United States Army. Uh, I had litigated by this point some of the biggest court martials in America. Um. And I’m getting denied. Um, I, I had made some mistakes on my own, uh, claim, and I ended up, uh, I ended up, uh, hiring, um, a young woman who who now is one of our attorneys here to help guide me through it. Um, and I thought to myself, you know, if I can’t figure this out. And I grew up in the ranks, you know, I read more regs than you could possibly imagine. Um, during my time in the Army as both a litigator and administrative law attorney. And I had a hard time figuring out, I thought to myself, my goodness, our veterans are not going to have a chance of of getting this done right. And that was really kind of the motivating factor for why we created the disability division, um, and why we work so hard to, uh, to support our veterans through that process because it is complicated.

Robert Capovilla: Uh, it can be difficult and it can be incredibly frustrating. A veteran knows they’re in pain and they know what caused the pain. And then to be told, well, you know, it’s not service connected or it’s not. It’s not significant enough for disability or whatever the case may be. Um, that could be a really frustrating process. We we recently helped a Vietnam veteran who had been going through this process for years. Uh, and he’s a combat veteran, did some very, very difficult things while in uniform. Um, and finally, after, you know, when he first, you know, when when he first approached us, you know, it was clear to me that he was at the end of his rope in terms of this process. And, um, nine months later, we got him to 100%. And, um, you know, he came into the office with tears in his eyes. Him and his wife, both. And that’s why you do it, right? Um, but that’s a very, uh, very normal, typical pathway to follow. The frustration can just be extreme.

Lee Kantor: So there’s no kind of statute of limitations when it comes to this. Like if you were denied at any point, there’s still time to kind of make it right.

Robert Capovilla: Well, without getting into the weeds of the disability process. There are certain ways to appeal. There’s things called supplemental appeals and higher level reviews and all this kind of thing. Uh, and there are deadlines for that and certain limits for that. Um, that probably kind of go beyond the the scope of this particular show, but no statute of limitations per se, that that’s more of a term that’s applicable to criminal law. Um, and, and we do a pretty good job of, of being able to make sure that we’re able to maneuver ourselves around the rules to, um, get a disability appeal filed.

Lee Kantor: But if somebody was denied, like maybe five years ago, then they move to Georgia and kind of run into your firm, like you might be able to take another look at it.

Robert Capovilla: We might be able to we might not be able to, um, that, that that’d be purely case specific because the VA does have some deadlines in there when you’ve got to submit your, your, your claims or your supplemental claims. So it’s really a case by case basis. But again, you know, um, my team’s got a lot of experience. And our job is to to find a way to file a successful appeal.

Lee Kantor: So is there a window? Like if you’ve just been denied, you know, two weeks ago or 30 days, like, is there a window where that’s kind of the optimal time to then take action?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. Uh, anything within a year and you’re probably going to be just fine. Um, and and when they deny you, you’re going to get paperwork that’s going to lay out that timeline. Right? And it’s going to say in here, you’ve got to have your, your, your appeal submitted by this time frame. Uh, but the sooner the better, right. That and that’s what we tell everybody. The sooner you jump on this stuff, the sooner you get the help. The sooner that we can work the claim, the better off you’re going to be.

Lee Kantor: Now, do you have any advice or guidance for veterans that are transitioning from military to civilian life? Any kind of life lessons you are willing to share?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. You know, I think, um, as I look back at, um, at my own life, I think the first couple of years leaving the United States Army, um, were two of the most difficult years of my life. Um, because you go from an environment where, you know, you stand for something, you’re part of a team, you’re surrounded by really good people each and every day. Um, your your life is sort of taken care of in certain ways. You don’t have to worry about taxes. You don’t have to worry about a lot of these things. And then all of a sudden you find yourself on the outside and you’re not surrounded by these people anymore. You’re not surrounded by your friends and your battle buddies. And that mission that is so central to us doesn’t exist anymore in a lot of ways. And I struggle with that a lot. Um, I struggle with that a lot. And I come across a lot of veterans, um, who are recently out and they are struggling as well. That can be a very, very tough adaption, period. And so, um, what I tell folks all the time is there’s, there’s three things that you need to focus on when you get out of the service. Number one is your physical fitness. Um, a lot of us service members, um, we’re in really good shape. We’re used to pt we’re used to, um, having kind of the physical aspect of our lives.

Robert Capovilla: And one of the mistakes I made was I got away from that. And it took me a while to get back into it. And I tell everybody, when you get out, maintain the same level of physical fitness. Do not let that fall off because, um, you know, it’s going to help your mindset. It’s going to help your, your it’s going to help, uh, not only your health, but it’s going to help you with that, with that process of, you know, hey, I’m out of the Army. I’m not wearing the uniform anymore. Hey, I’m out of the Navy. I’m not wearing the uniform anymore. Um, but it is still that that that fitness aspect is still a part of your identity. And don’t lose that. Um, number two, uh, if you’re a person of faith, um, you know, it’s really a time to lean into your faith. Uh, I got involved in a wonderful church that had a outstanding veterans ministry. I’m still involved in that. Um, that gave me a lot of the same feel, uh, like I was still in the service. Um, you know, every every Wednesday, I think it is. There’s meetings and you go and you spend some time with other veterans. And so if you’re a person of faith, um, getting involved in a church, getting involved in the veterans ministry was something that helped me a lot.

Robert Capovilla: Um, and then number three, you know, do your best to, to try to, to, to, to to try to find out what your mission is for your next phase of life. Uh, for me, that was a relatively easy transition. Uh, that part of it, um, because I knew I wanted to help service members. I knew I wanted to build a law firm. Um, but for a lot of folks that get out, they they’re just lost, you know, they they don’t know what their mission is. Now, um, and I tell folks, you know, um, go to different career workshops, um, try to take the skills you learn and, and, um, you know, work that into, uh, something that can get you gainful employment on the civilian side. Find out what your mission is now that you’re not wearing the uniform anymore. Because for those that wore the uniform, um, it really is not just a job. It’s. It’s an identity. Um, it’s part of who you are. And when that becomes something that’s now in the past. Um, yeah. I mean, it can be a very, uh, a very tough transition, especially for the guys that, you know, that that are combat arms that, uh, did some things that were, uh, that most of us wouldn’t do. Right. Um, it can be very difficult.

Lee Kantor: Yeah. You got to really find your. Why. You have to have that reason that’s getting you out of bed every day, or it’s very difficult. So if somebody wants to learn more, have a more substantive conversation with you or somebody on the team, what is the website? What’s the best way to connect?

Robert Capovilla: Yeah. So, um, you you type in Capovilla Williams. Um, you’ll see us there. We’re easy to find. Um, uh, I like to think we’ve got great visibility. Um, military defense attorney comm is is, uh, another way to find us. Uh, and, of course, you can reach out directly to us. Um, you know, we welcome veterans into this office, uh, just about every single day and met with a couple yesterday. So, uh, we try to make ourselves as easy as possible to find. I’m also the host of the Military Justice Podcast, which is a podcast that covers, um, not just, um, you know, veteran related issues, but also, you know, uh, legal issues that are important to our service members, our active duty service members nationwide. And we have a we’ve had some great guests on there. Um, you know, Matt Lohmeier, the assistant secretary of the Air Force, uh, was on our podcast. We’ve had some best selling authors on on faith, on our podcast. Uh, we’ve had some fitness gurus like Stu Smith on our podcast. Um, so I’d like to think it’s a good place for, uh, both active duty service members and veterans to come to, um, to, uh, have a little community and to to to learn a little bit more about what’s going on, um, with our veterans across the country.

Lee Kantor: Well, Robert, thank you so much for sharing your story. You’re doing such important work, and we appreciate you.

Robert Capovilla: Uh, my pleasure. And thanks for having me.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Veterans Business Radio.

Intro: Broadcasting live from the Business RadioX studios in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s time for Veterans Business Radio, brought to you by ATL vets, providing the tools and support that help veteran owned businesses thrive. For more information, go to ATL vetsource. Now here’s your host.

Lee Kantor: Lee Kantor here another episode of Veterans Business Radio and this is going to be a good one. But before we get started, it’s important to recognize our sponsor, ATL Vets, inspiring veterans to build their foundation of success and empowering them to become the backbone of society after the uniform. For more information, go to ATL vets. Today on the show, we have Jeff Rogers, who is the founder and CEO with Strengthen the Positive. Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Rogers: Lee. Thanks so much for having me. I sure do appreciate it.

Lee Kantor: Well, I’m excited to learn what you’re up to. Tell us about Strengthen the Positive. How you serving folks?

Jeff Rogers: Well, Strengthen the Positive is a a venture that I started a little while ago. In the interest of helping veterans transfer from their military career into their civilian career, or I should say, civilian life. Actually, you know, the military does an outstanding job of getting us in the military. They say, okay, you are no longer Jeff Rogers. You are, in my case, Airman Rogers, and we’re going to get you in. And now you’re in the military getting out. They do a decent job helping you get out. They have transition assistance programs and a few other things that teach you the tactical stuff the how to fill out a resume, how to do an interview, how to do a how to do some networking, but they don’t get into the internal things. And that’s what strengthened the positive is really all about helping us get from military life through that messy middle into feeling like you’re yourself again and you’re able to proceed in the civilian world.

Lee Kantor: Now, did you come up with kind of a methodology, or is this based on something else that you learned somewhere along the line? Like, how did you come up with this bridge that helps a person transition, you know, from service into, like you said, the rest of their lives?

Jeff Rogers: Well, it came from my personal lived experience. So I am a retired Air Force NCO. I retired back in 2007. So Lee is probably thinking, okay, that 2007, that’s a long time ago. Why did he just write this book now? Well, let me tell you. So when I first got into the military, everything was was great. I had my job, I had my family, In fact, my parents had moved down from my childhood home in Massachusetts, down here to Florida. In fact, they lived right next door to us. So I had plenty of things to keep me busy, whether it was work, family, my parents, and just kind of keeping keeping things going. As time went on, you know, I lost a job or two. I got picked up on another job and so on and so forth. But unfortunately, back in 2020, uh, my mom passed away and then my dad in 2024 passed away. So there was a big part of me that was now missing again. So it took me a while to realize that all this time from 22, excuse me, 2007 until 2024, I was always chasing. I was always running. I was always doing all these things. And now here in 2024, that was all gone. So what I did, I shouldn’t say that was all gone. A major component of my life was gone.

Jeff Rogers: So right during that time period, I actually got involved with the American Legion here in Spring Hill, Florida. And I was talking to some other veterans there, and I found out that many of them were just like me. They were in a spot where they didn’t really they knew. They knew they weren’t in the military anymore, but they didn’t really feel comfortable in the civilian world. Now, this is going from from, you know, I’ll say fresh veterans, people who just got out to folks who had been out for quite a while. And there’s that, again, I like to call it the messy middle, because sometimes you don’t even realize that you’re in it until you start to get out of it, if that makes sense. So to answer your question, how did I come up with this? I came up with this through my my personal lived experience. I spoke with some other veterans and I did some, some really deep conversations to try to figure out ways that I could help. And that’s where after the uniform came out, that’s my that’s my, uh, my, my book is called After the Uniform. I do have a couple other journals under the Strengthen the Positive umbrella, but that’s where after the uniform, uh, came, came to be.

Lee Kantor: Now, the way that you kind of delineated things was you went there was a period in the military. Then there was a period after the military. Do you address the period before the military, like did you have kind of a big Y or a true North Star before the military? Because it sounds like a lot of the thinking begins from the military forward.

Jeff Rogers: Yeah. Well, for for many veterans there there is no real North Star, which which oftentimes brings them to the military. So for me personally, I was going to to college. I wasn’t doing as well as I was as I was hoping I was going to to be doing, and I was looking for something that I could that I could depend on, something that I knew that that once I got established, I was going to be able to have that job security also, with all the benefits that were available back in 1987, uh, for, for a, uh, for a young airman, it was for me personally, it was a no brainer to join the military. So while I had some ideas of what I wanted to do, I was 18, 19 years old at the time. I didn’t know what the heck was going on. I really didn’t know what up and down and the differences of going sideways was. But, uh, when you’re in the military, that structure, the, the, the rigor that is established in your day to day life when you leave the military and that’s gone. It’s it’s a it’s a sobering, uh, a very sobering and, uh, well, uh, humiliating experience because you went from someone who had confidence. You were you were doing all these different things. You were, uh, you know, an important member of your unit. And now as you get out and by the way, you know you’re going to get out. In my case, I, you know, I served my 20 years. I decided to get out. So I knew what was going to happen. But to think that that just a job was going to be all I needed. Uh, I was dead wrong. So, um, it’s very difficult losing that direction once in my in. At least in my experience, the military gives it to you because I didn’t really have it beforehand.

Lee Kantor: And then, like you said, once you leave, you’re kind of untethered. And now it’s one of those things like when you have a blank page, you can do anything. But that’s overwhelming. And a lot of times you do nothing because it’s overwhelming. You don’t have that structure that you were so used to.

Jeff Rogers: Exactly, exactly. It’s kind of like, uh, you know, lots of times when, when I was younger and going through different things, people would say, hey, Jeff, just journal, journal, write things down, write your feelings down. Right? Well, I don’t know what to write. I got a blank page like you said, Lee. I got a blank page. Uh, today’s, uh. Let’s see, today’s Wednesday. Uh, I woke up, okay. I don’t know what to write.

Lee Kantor: I’m out. Right?

Jeff Rogers: Yeah.

Lee Kantor: And and that’s why. I mean, I know you, um, one of your things that you offer our journals and and those kind of prompts and that direction and structure, it’s helpful for a lot of people because the blank page can be scary while the blank page is, you know, has all, uh, everything is possible, but it’s also, you know, overwhelming. Like, there’s not a, a place to start. And it’s hard to have kind of the self-discipline to start every day.

Jeff Rogers: Yes, yes. That is that is entirely too true. Uh, that was and that’s really the reason why I also, along with the after the uniform book, uh, I also put together a Strengthen the Positive for Veterans Journal. And along with that, I have another journal that is, uh. Well, let me just say that the, the, the Veterans Journal is 12 weeks, and it’s a daily, daily reflection, uh, daily prompts, kind of keeping things grounded and keeping you moving forward. Then I have what’s called the Mission Compass Journal, and that’s actually 52 weeks. So a full year of weekly Missions or assignments to again get you through. Keep you grounded. And it also, as you mentioned, it gives you those prompts. So you so you’re not just staring at a blank page. Now do you have to do these in order? No, not necessarily. But they do sort of build upon each other. And then lastly, I built a not built, but I put together a journal that’s just called Strengthen the Positive. The journal. It’s 30 days, sometimes 12 weeks or a whole year is a little overwhelming. So 30 days of of pointed daily prompts is is what the journal is all about. And the reason why I did it was just as you said, that blank page, while it’s blank, can be awfully intimidating.

Lee Kantor: Now, you mentioned when you were in the military, everything was structured. There’s rules, there’s expectations. Everybody knows on Monday we’re doing this, and on Wednesday we’re doing that like it’s very deliberate and structured and and life after the military tends to be more of a free, a free for all. Where hey, go ahead, make it happen. And there’s nobody telling you what to do, and there’s nobody checking your work to make sure you did it right there. And that for a lot of people is difficult. And a lot of and I equate it to like sports teams, like a sports team has a season. And the season, you know, there’s certain things that happen at certain times. There’s training camp and then there’s preseason and then there’s the games, and then there’s the playoffs and then the season’s over. But in life, there is nothing like it’s one long season for the rest of your life. Like there’s no way to kind of put it into chunks. How do you help people kind of, um, get a handle on this? Like, is it the journaling? Is that kind of the foundational start where let’s start just getting some of these thoughts out of your head. Uh, is that kind of a building block to kind of helping rebuild somebody’s identity?

Jeff Rogers: That is certainly part of it, or it can be part of it. You know, one of the things that happens in the military is we are taught, and I’m sure that your listeners are going to be able to really resonate with this, but we’re taught to keep everything inside. You’re hurt. Don’t tell anybody you’re sad. Don’t tell anybody. You’re, you know, upset. Whatever. You get through it. Dig deep and get through it. That once you get out, that mindset is probably the worst mindset to hold on to. Because what that does is that breaks you down both mentally, emotionally and ultimately physically. So getting it out and talking to someone is probably the best thing that you can do. But again, as military folks, we’re taught keep it in. You got this. You know, keep charging. You know, just rub a little dirt on it. You’ll be fine. If you’re not willing to talk to someone. And I know of of plenty of people who feel there’s such a stigma with, with talking to professional counselors and such. Sometimes the journal is the way to go, because in in the case of my journals, you have specific prompts. And what I say, and many of them is like like there’s one prompt in particular that on that week in the mission journal compass. Excuse me, mission compass. Journal. Uh, it’s all about control. And it there’s there are three key words that talk about control. And the prompt question is what are the things that I control today. So reflecting on what I can control, rather than staring at and pointing at all the things I cannot control, gives me a little bit more power to be me, to be myself.

Jeff Rogers: So along with journaling, what I really kind of go through in the After the Uniform book is I talk about building resilience and how resilience is not keeping it all in. But true resilience is having the courage to ask for help, and that is what’s going to build the resilience and kind of build your your force field, if you will, from the negativity that might be around you. Along with that, you have to build connections. You have to rediscover who you are. Now, you mentioned earlier, Lee, you said, well, geez, you know, before you went in the military, did you have a North Star? Well, some folks did, and they had to put that away because they went in the military. Well, maybe in they’re rediscovering of themselves. They’re able to go back to that North Star they had prior to being in the military. From there, going into, you know, there’s another whole book that talks about. I believe the title of it is Find Your Tribe. That is a very, very important thing for military folks when we’re in the military. We have our our unit, we have our squadron, we have our platoon, whatever it may be. We have our set of folks that are our brothers and sisters. When we get out of the military, oftentimes we lose contact with those folks because life happens. So what can you do to build or become a part of a new community or a new tribe to again feel like you’re, uh, you’re bigger than just yourself?

Lee Kantor: Now, when you’re working, um, or talking to other veterans, how do you help them be this the as vulnerable as you’re describing? Um, having come from a place like you said, where you’re not really rewarded for being vulnerable.

Jeff Rogers: Well, vulnerability is, is one of those things that when I’m speaking with other veterans, the first thing that I try to do is I try to to show my vulnerability. So I demonstrate it by by doing it myself. And I’ll talk a little bit about some of the different trying times that I’ve gone through. And by doing that, by showing that example, it unconsciously tells the person that it’s okay to do so. So I may talk about, you know, how it was when my mom passed away. I may talk about when it was when I first, you know, when I, when I got fired from my first job. Post-military and how devastating that was because I didn’t see it coming, because I was doing a great job as far as everyone told me. But I still got cut. Uh, so being able to to demonstrate that And show that it’s okay. And because they’re not judging me as I’m talking about my vulnerability, unconsciously again, they know or they should know that I’m not going to judge them. And that’s how that kind of, that kind of you kind of break the ice, if you will, then once and I will say this, that in many cases I can count them on, on both my hands in quite a few cases, once that ice is broken, it’s almost like a dam opens.

Jeff Rogers: It’s like it’s like the levee breaks and all kinds of things come out. And then after that conversation, you know, the the weight that is lifted off that person’s shoulders and being able to to discuss those things, oftentimes I’ll just bring bring this up real quick. You know, oftentimes family members will say that, you know, dad or mom or whoever it may be. They never talk about their time in the service. They never talk about it. And oftentimes it’s because that was so traumatic that they don’t want to traumatize. The service member does not want to traumatize their family member by discussing how traumatic that experience or those experiences were. But when you’re in a group of of like minded individuals, maybe at a an American Legion, VFW or some other type of military organization, those other folks in the room have done many of the same things. You’ve done many things that that are even more harrowing than what you’ve done. So being able to have that kind of community again is very, very helpful to help people open up and talk about the different trying times that they might have had while they were in the military. And that will help them through the transition of getting into a successful civilian life.

Lee Kantor: Now are you spending? Is this kind of what you’re doing with your life now? Is writing these books? Um, speaking. And, um, I don’t know if you’re coaching, but you’re working with veterans to help them kind of lead with purpose in their civilian life as they move forward.

Jeff Rogers: Yes, yes, that is that is what I’m doing. Uh, I, I actually have my actual business is called Gilly Bell Legacy Works. And, uh, that is my, my LLC, which kind of is encompassing everything and strengthen the positive is a division of that business. So strengthening the positive is really talking about are really focused on helping veterans in their transition. My overall mission with Gilly Bell Legacy Works is training change management, uh, veteran And empowerment and a few other things. So. So yes, not only do I have these books, but I’m also, uh, I’m also a speaker. I do keynote, uh, I guess keynote engagements with different organizations to talk about these things and also to help people and organizations get through whatever transitions they may be going through, because it’s often it’s often a very, very difficult time. For example, I have a program it’s called After the Handshake and this after the handshake program. What it is for is for employers who are looking to hire veterans, not only hire them but retain them. So there are so many organizations out there who are veteran friendly, and some say that they’re veteran ready. And that’s great. They get a veteran in the door. So glad you’re here. This is great. We love having veterans in our organization, the handshake. And then, just like you said earlier, go ahead. Go make it happen. What I want to do is I want to help organizations, employers, retain those veterans by establishing programs within their organizations that that mimic the the camaraderie and the the overall networking that you would have in the military. So whether it’s through, uh, employee forums or, uh, veteran empowerment groups or something like that. Uh, so there’s there’s quite a few different avenues to get there. But yes, to answer your question, I’m kind of, uh, developing a multifaceted approach to make sure that veterans are being taken care of both in and out of the job market.

Lee Kantor: Now, regarding, uh, the employers and when you’re working with them, what are some do’s and don’ts when onboarding a veteran to give them the best opportunity for success.

Jeff Rogers: I would say that the biggest, the biggest thing or the biggest piece of advice is to. Is to communicate with that veteran often. So sometimes one of the companies that I worked for, we set up a buddy system, sort of like when you are in the military and you get to a new a new unit, you will have what we call the sponsor. At least that’s what we called it in the Air Force. You had your sponsor, that person showed you around, they helped you with, you know, making sure that all your paperwork was handled. Make sure that you had all the things that you needed developing something like that, a sponsor system or a buddy system, especially if that other buddy is a veteran who’s in the organization having that person In in some pretty consistent contact with the new employee, making sure that one number one, they get through all the HR stuff, all the the the stuff that everybody hates doing all the paperwork and all the the benefits and all that. Because because by the way, nine times out of ten, a veteran who just came off of military service has no idea what they need to fill out for for a dental plan or a medical plan because the military took care of it. And if they are not keeping their in their, their Tricare coverage, then they’re going to need something. They’re going to need to figure that out. So helping that person get through the HR stuff, show them around, introduce them to all the, you know, the power players in the company if you can, making them feel like they’re part of the organization. And the the total opposite of doing that is. Hey, thanks for being here. Your office is right over there. Your cubicle is right over there. Have fun. Let us know if you need anything. That’s probably the worst sentence you can say to a to a veteran. Let me know if you need anything because they’re not going to let you know anything because as far as they’re concerned, I want to be seen as the person who doesn’t need squat.

Lee Kantor: Right. So the irony is, um, the organizations trying to give them autonomy, and they think that that’s what they want and need, but in reality, they need somebody that’s kind of watching their back so they can get onboarded properly. So they can then be more autonomous over time, but they just are not going to be granted autonomy on day one without any kind of support.

Jeff Rogers: Exactly, exactly. Um, no autonomy will come as you, as you, as you, as you said. But initially, it’s not like it’s not like you’re hiring someone who is just coming from another company. They’re coming from an organization that, uh, didn’t necessarily have all of the different moving parts that a, a corporate organization has. Yeah. You know, we we certainly have paperwork and finance department and all those kind of things, but it’s all handled for you when you’re in the military, at least the vast majority of it is when you get into a civilian job. I know for me, when I had my first job, I had no idea what to put for my benefit packages and what to put for, uh, 401 and all those kind of things. I had no idea. I had to ask a whole lot of questions. I probably looked like an idiot to a lot of people, but I didn’t. I didn’t know, and there was no one there to just to just kind of help me through it. So I had to kind of stumble along.

Lee Kantor: Right. And ironically, from the organization standpoint, they’re probably looking at oh, that’s like not not that important. That’s just paperwork. Administrative stuff. But to a veteran coming in, it feels like this is this is my first test and I’m failing it.

Jeff Rogers: Yes. Yes. Oftentimes civilian employees take for granted all of the things that they do because they do it so often. They, you know, hey, look, I, I on board. Let’s say, you know, 100 people a year. You’re just one of a hundred. Yeah. But to that person, he or she is one of one. They’ve never done this before. And the other 99 are more than likely coming from a different company. So they’re just transferring there. I mentioned 401 earlier. They’re going to transfer their 401 K. They know all the ins and outs of how to get get all those things done. But when it comes to the military person coming to their first civilian role. The best thing to do is to to kind of help them along the way. I’m not saying you want to handhold them. That’s not that’s not necessarily what I’m saying. But you definitely want to have someone there to help them along the way. Once they get their feet on the ground, once they get settled, watch out, because now they’re really going to now the mission is going to kick in and things are going to happen.

Lee Kantor: Right. And but having that again, this bridge is so critical and it seems like a little thing, but it’s a big thing because if you don’t have it the foundation right, you’re going to have a problem when you can just solve it by having someone there as a bridge for a short period of time to onboard them to. Is this something that you help them build, like a veteran playbook to help them make that transition smoother?

Jeff Rogers: Yes. I am in the process of of building that. Uh, there are plenty of people out there who do an awesome job of getting employers to get veterans in the door. And that’s great because getting them in the door is is more than half the battle. Retaining those folks, that’s where I that’s where my program is, is going to that’s where my program is targeted. So it’s after the handshake. Once they’re in, what are we going to do to keep these folks? Uh, there was a stat and I’m trying to look on, uh, look it up here real quick. There is a stat that says that it talks about the, um, the number of folks who leave their first, their first job. And it is, if I remember correctly, it is an astonishing stat. Uh, of course, I can’t find it right here in the moment, because it’s part of all the different things that I’m, I’m working on with, uh, after the handshake. But the, the data tells us that when it comes to veterans in their first role. More times than not, they will leave after the first year because they don’t feel like they’re part of something bigger than themselves. They just feel like a number. So. So that is something that employers, if they want to retain their veterans in their organization, it has to be addressed. So what are some of the things we can do? Uh, you know. Employee groups, uh, you know, different mentoring, uh, possibilities and, and opportunities. Um, and so there’s quite a few different things they can do, but but yeah, it is it is amazing to to see how the, the feeling of belonging is so important after the military.

Lee Kantor: Now, is there a story you can share that, uh, maybe somebody who has gone through one of your trainings or got Ahold of one of your books or journals, uh, that has been able to kind of rebuild their identity and has now kind of leading that life that we’re all shooting for, that, um, kind of got out of the rut, maybe. Is there a success story you can share? Obviously don’t name the person, but maybe share their challenge in how they were able to kind of get to a new level?

Jeff Rogers: Sure. Uh, I, I was, uh, I received a message from someone who who read the book, uh, they read after the uniform. And what he said was through reading the book, he didn’t understand what his friends and family who were military. He was not military, but he didn’t understand what his friends and family who were military. He didn’t understand the trials and tribulations of the transition. So my book after the uniform helped him to understand why, like, for example, why his uncle would not talk about the time when he was in the military and and why why that was such a harrowing subject for him to talk about. So he then took that book and he gave it to I want to say it was his cousin, but I’m not I don’t remember exactly who it was. And he read the book, and according to the person who emailed me, it really opened his eyes to to the, the, the suffering that he was going through without realizing it. And what he has done is he has now gone and started to look for opportunities where he can get involved in the community, where he can be a contributor again. So again, so he feels like he’s he’s doing something that’s bigger than just himself. Uh, he mentioned that there were some volunteer things that he was doing. I believe it was with the Red cross, I believe. But, you know, that’s just one example of of what? I hope to be thousands of examples sooner or later that will show that that number one, veterans, when they get out of the military, you know, oftentimes folks think that they’re broken or folks think that they’re they’re, uh, you know, rude and, and and curt and to the point, neither of those is true. Uh, sure. There are some people who may be a little bit more, uh, a little bit more blunt than others, but but we’re not broken. So oftentimes all we need is a little bit of support to make sure that we’re going in the right direction. And once we’re going in that right direction, you know, we’ll hit the ground running.

Lee Kantor: Right. And to your point is they you have to find that next y and you have to find your people.

Jeff Rogers: Yes.

Lee Kantor: Um, I mean, all of that is so critically important. It’s so easy to be untethered. You just got to, you know, get that help. You need to find your why as quickly as possible. So you’re and you’re. And once you do that, your people will probably appear pretty quickly.

Jeff Rogers: Yes. And the thing is, what a lot of people kind of, uh, uh, they, they, they misjudge who their people are or how many people they need. You don’t need a room full of folks to say to to prove to yourself that you’re you’re of value. It can be one person, two people. It can be just a small handful of folks that you meet, you know, maybe once a week or once a quarter or once a month for a cup of coffee and you just shoot the breeze. It could be anything, but it’s definitely not going to be you sitting at home by yourself, drowning in your sorrows because you don’t feel like you deserve to be happy again because you’re not part of the military anymore. Um, and so many people that I’ve met, they know of people who have become, uh, for lack of a better word, hermits in their own homes. Because they don’t they don’t feel like like they deserve the interaction of other people anymore because of maybe the things that happened while they were in the military, the things that they did while they were in the military. So, uh, it’s all it’s all about, just as you said. Find that why I call it finding your mission again, or finding your next mission and finding your community, finding those people. Once you do that, like you said, those other people, they they just come out of the woodwork and next thing you know, you’ve got a whole bunch of folks that you’re working with or dealing with or just shooting the breeze with. Having fun with. And and you. You feel like you again, if that makes sense. And, uh. And it’s a beautiful thing when you see it in someone’s face that they’re, they’re finally letting their guard down. When you see it in their face that the, the weight of their on their shoulders is finally being lifted. It’s it’s a beautiful, beautiful thing to see.

Lee Kantor: Well, Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your story today. If somebody wants to learn more and connect with you, um, what is the website to get Ahold of the books or get Ahold of you? Um, where should people go?

Jeff Rogers: Okay. Uh, my website is WW. All one word. Strengthen the positive.com. Also, my books are available on Amazon. If you take a if you just do a search for for as a matter of fact, uh, after the uniform Jeff Rogers. My books will come up, uh, and you’ll be able to see all four of them, uh, whether it’s hard copy, uh, I’m sorry, hardcover, softcover or e-book. In the case of, uh, after the uniform. Also, uh, I’m also on LinkedIn as well. So, uh, Jeff G. Rogers on LinkedIn and, uh, and that once you get to my website, you’ll have all the information that you need to if you want to contact me, I’m happy to talk with folks. I’m happy to, to do, uh, speeches. I’m happy to do keynotes. Um, yeah. Well, whatever folks need to, to help veterans get through the transition I’m here for.

Lee Kantor: Well, Jeff, thank you again for sharing your story. You’re doing such important work and we appreciate you.

Jeff Rogers: Please. Thanks a lot. I appreciate your time.

Lee Kantor: All right. This is Lee Kantor. We’ll see you all next time on Veterans Business Radio.