Inspiring Women PodCast with Betty Collins

Inspiring Women, Episode 9: Leadership With a Title (An Interview with Janet Smith Meeks, Part 1)

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Betty’s Show Notes

Everywhere today you see people are looking for great leadership. When you’re a leader, you can influence. You can change your world around you. You can impact people in your life and organizations. You can be part of success because of your leadership and influence. And you can use that title responsibly for yourself as well as for others.

Leadership, influence, AND the title are all one package deal.

One of the people who I love, I’ve heard speak, and read her book on leadership, is Janet Smith Meeks. She is so passionate about how we can lead. She wrote a book called Gracious Leadership. You should check it out. It’s really good. She lives it. She wants to change the world for the good. She’s a leader because she influences those around her.

And I’m am so thrilled to have interviewed her for this episode. This episode is part one of my two part interview with her.

Janet Smith Meeks, Healthcare Alignment Advisors

Janet Smith Meeks has devoted nearly four decades of her professional life to the healthcare and financial services industries. As a C-suite executive and corporate director, she has vast experience in finance, strategy, operations, marketing, business development and leadership effectiveness.

Janet has served in executive roles for four nationally known healthcare systems, including Trinity Health (the second largest Catholic Healthcare system in the nation) and the prestigious Vanderbilt University Medical Center. Janet spent nine years as president of Mount Carmel St. Ann’s Hospital in Westerville, Ohio where she led the organization to peak performance through applying the key ingredients of Gracious Leadership.

As co-founder and CEO of Healthcare Alignment Advisors, Janet uses her experience to guide C-suite executives across multiple industries in strategies that are designed to optimize corporate performance within a positive work environment.

Janet is the author of Gracious Leadership: Lead Like You’ve Never Led Before.

“Inspiring Women” Podcast Series

“Inspiring Women” is THE podcast that advances women toward economic, social and political achievement. The show is hosted by Betty Collins, CPA, and presented by Brady Ware and Company. Brady Ware is committed to empowering women to go their distance in the workplace and at home. Past episodes of “Inspiring Women” can be found here.

Show Transcript

Betty : [00:00:00] Leadership, it takes more than a title. This podcast, along with a million other podcasts, is about leadership because it’s just a really hot topic. It’s something that is so needed everywhere. Leadership takes more than a title. Maybe you’re fortunate enough to have that title in your life …

Betty : [00:00:20] Everywhere today, you see people are looking for great leadership. It can be in your home, your business, nonprofits you volunteer for. It can be politically, for sure, schools, education, et cetera, et cetera. Just great leadership is needed. Great leadership, to me, it engages, and influences the followers to just develop, be better … It’s all positive. Again, you don’t have to have that title to be an effective leader, but that is for part two of this series.

Betty : [00:00:53] Are you a leader with a title? Maybe you’re striving to become that leader, and get the promotion, and the title, and all the perks/headaches that go with it. Maybe you’re frustrated, as a leader, and you’re just not getting that engagement. You’re just not influencing. Maybe you’re striving to get a promotion, and you continue to be overlooked. Maybe you’re also just looking for a good leader, someone that you can follow.

Betty : [00:01:19] I just want to take all of those scenarios, and I want to share you my insights today on leadership. I’ve led, and I’ve followed, and I’ve done both at the same time; we all have, but it’s more than that title, and that perk. When you’re a leader, you can influence. You can change your world around you. You can impact people in your life, and organizations. You can be part of success, because of your leadership, and influence, and you can use that title responsibly, for yourself, as well as others.

Betty : [00:01:49] Leadership, it gives you more than a title. It gives you a authority, it gives you that … You can lead organizations, and people. It’s guidance, it’s directions, it’s even control, which we, of course, all like. It’s about being intentional. It’s really about engagement. To me, at the end of the day, leadership is nothing more than influencing. It’s why you don’t have to have that title, but again, that’s for part two of this podcast.

Betty : [00:02:16] Think about who’s been an exceptional leader in your life – any part of it, any area of it, any age. Who led, and you followed? Who’s come into your mind right now, because I’m sure there’s people in your life that you’re thinking about? Who also was that leader with the title, who really had a negative impact, and you never want to be that person?

Betty : [00:02:40] I’ve been fortunate enough to have great leadership all around me, and I’ve experienced, I’ll call it, the dark side, as well. I’m going to start with those people we have in our lives that have influenced us, but they’re from afar, right? You’ve never met them.

Betty : [00:02:57] One of those influencers, for me, back in the young age, as I was getting out of college, was President Ronald Reagan. I never met him. We never had coffee. He never had me come to the White House. By the way, this is not a political podcast; I want you to know that … He influenced those around him, and you could see it.

Betty : [00:03:16] I recently watched a documentary of his first big meeting with international leaders. They knew his title. They knew what his job was, but they really didn’t have much to say to him. He wasn’t really respected that day. In fact, he remembers leaning over, looking at people going, “Hey, I’m Ron,” and they still just … There was no connection. There was no engagement. He certainly left there with no influence.

Betty : [00:03:42] The next time he met, the next time – again, they knew his job, and they knew his title – but it was different, because this time, he didn’t have to say who he was. He didn’t have to introduce himself. He was the focus. It was all completely different, because he had gained tremendous respect because of the success, and results he was having as the president, and it was just different,  and he was an influencer.

Betty : [00:04:10] Of course, we always like presidents, once they’re out of office, but, why did I like him? He was optimistic. He always used humor. He was respectful, but he was a driver of the agenda of the day. That agenda, for him, was conservatism, and it was the American people. He also had a lot of … He was a Conservative, but he was respected by many Liberals, and it was a very united country at that time, with a lot of success. I think of him today, and I still watch things about him … You just feel better.

Betty : [00:04:41] You all have those people in your life that you look, from a distance, and from afar, but really, what I want to focus on is who has been around me. Most of my career, of course, has been focused in business, as a CPA, and I had … I had one major job outside of accounting. I worked in food service. I was the Director of Food Service for a college campus.

Betty : [00:05:03] I worked for a man by the name of Austin Swallow. He influences me to this day. I haven’t seen him probably in 10 years. He influences me because his very core was what drove everything. That was his faith, and his ethics, and what he believed. There was never any compromise for that. He didn’t beat it on you. He didn’t shout it from the mountain top. He did none of those things. He just lived it, and you knew it was there. Family was more important to him because he always emphasized – those moments never come back.

Betty : [00:05:33] In business, we had a hard job feeding college kids food, where you had to make it for a thousand, so it was never real rewarding. When it was hard, you stayed the course. If you didn’t do your job, you owned it, and you always took whatever it is for that customer.

Betty : [00:05:46] He lost a big account, and he knew for a while that it was going to end, but he still led. He did his job, he fulfilled his obligation. He finished to the end with pride, and walked away that day, already knowing, for about 60 days, he had been fired. He never had any regrets about it. He let me fail. He did those type of things.

Betty : [00:06:07] I was in a company, where I was the only woman. There were about 30 people, totally, in the company. He made sure I developed, and had success, and I climbed the ladder there very quickly at a very young age. He valued his employees. He had a lot of loyalty because of it. He always talked to me about executive presence. He always would say, “If you want to be taken seriously, you gotta act accordingly.” Those four years of working with him, as a leader, watching him, influenced me in these last 30.

Betty : [00:06:35] I’ve also seen the dark side, but I don’t want to focus on that today. I really want to focus on the good side.  Which are you? Which do you want to be? Who is influencing you right now? Is it good? Is it positive? Who are you influencing right now? Is it good, and is it positive?

Betty : [00:06:53] Leadership, it starts with you. It absolutely starts with you. Here’s a great thing I came across. I don’t know where I found this, I just have it in my notes, and I’m not sure what I got it from, but it’s really good. “Great leaders talk about vision, and ideas. Average leaders talk about things, and small leaders talk about others.” Then, “Those who lead them talk with them, and they all join in, and they tell others.” Three very different … Great, average, and small.

Betty : [00:07:23] Take it a step further. What positive qualities of leadership do you appreciate? Are you doing that? In what ways are you a leader? Who has been the leader with the title that influenced you the most, and why? I would challenge you, after this podcast, or think about that, as you’re struggling through leading, or you’re struggling with a leader, or you want to be a better one.

Betty : [00:07:42] You got to think differently. Mindset, you’ve got to have that in all roles, and positions in your organization, or your family, or at the school board. It doesn’t matter. They’re all important, and they serve a reason. You have a mindset that thinks differently when you’re a good leader.

Betty : [00:07:58] True leaders do not create more followers. It’s kind of easier to have followers than it is to create more leaders. If you’re really good in your job, in your career, in your company, you will have it. You will have a legacy one day, because you created leaders to come behind you. If you’re fortunate enough to get at the top, then you have you have an obligation to send the elevator down. Not my statement, but it’s a good one.

Betty : [00:08:23] In the mindset of a leader, all things are possible. In the mindset of an expert, a few things are possible. I say those two sentences because, sometimes, your talents as an expert, or a technician, or a really good hair salon … You can make someone look really good. Doesn’t mean you can be a leader. Leaders, probably you’re not going to be the technical expert. In the mindset of a leader, you understand what you’re good at, and what others are good at.

Betty : [00:08:55] We all start out as an original, and a lot of times, we just become a copy. Instead of transforming, we settle for conforming, and nobody is inspired when you conform. Instead, they all become leaders that they don’t have. If you’re frustrated with what’s happening around you, it’s time for change on your part. If you think, and renew your mind, you will change the way you feel, and you will change your behavior.

Betty : [00:09:20] Here’s another thing about a great leader. They show up every day. They don’t look at the past, and say, “Look what I built.” They don’t look at the past, and go, “But I did this yesterday.” You’ve got to show up every day. The title, ‘What you did in the past as a leader,’ probably is not enough; it doesn’t sustain.

Betty : [00:09:37] Truly, if you’re not at the table, then your perspective is never going to be heard, so you’ve got to be there. Decisions are made by those who show up. You can come to the table, and you have to either eat, or you’re going to be on the menu. I want you to think about that. I’ll say it one more time, for those of you who’re slow: when you come to the table, you either eat, or you’re on the menu.

Betty : [00:09:58] Another thing you have to realize: leadership and influence is never a straight line. You’re going to go from all over, to all over, and back again. Three steps forward, and it’s two steps back, and upstairs … You’re going to do all those different ways. It’s like that famous guy, Forrest Gump. “Life is like a box of chocolates.” You never know what you’re going to be, and who you’re going to affect as a leader. You’re never going to know what the circumstance is. You’re never going to control all that. Showing up every day is really important, and going forward is never- is never easier, sometimes, and going bigger is never easier, most of the time, right?

Betty : [00:10:35] Ways that you can lead, and you can influence … You have the title. I would tell you to use it wisely. You’re lucky enough that you have it. You’ve got to leverage your super power, which is you. I leverage my uniqueness. I am not your average CPA type of a person. I’m more of a personal person. I’m more of a common sense … I am more of a layman terms, let’s get it on the table. I use that. Please do not misunderstand me. Do not let your uniqueness be an excuse for you to act inappropriately, or drive people crazy. Use it so that you can influence.

Betty : [00:11:16] Sometimes, you just got to … As a leader, if you’re going to really lead and influence, you’ve got to invest your time differently. Do you know that there are 1,440 minutes in a day, and there are 10,080 of them in a week? You got to look at your time as an absolute asset, not a liability. People do not email or call me after 5:00, because I don’t pick up, and I don’t answer, unless it’s really, really crucial. It’s very few and far between.

Betty : [00:11:43] I used to be in business with somebody, who had a building, where we had our practice there. He would get a little frustrated with me not being available after hours. I said, “Unless the building is burning down … Oh, wait, you own the building …” You’ve got to set that time. Your time is an asset.

Betty : [00:12:01] You’ve got to look at the way you lead, and influence. A lot of times, people don’t want to let go. Just because you work harder, and you work, and you work doesn’t mean you will lead, and influence. You’ll just be tired. Time is really important. You’ve got to cultivate some resilience within yourself, and within your people, but that’s an entire podcast I wish I had time for.

Betty : [00:12:25] Then, you’ve got to be creative. You’ve got to have some unscheduled time, when you lead, because sometimes, you just got to sit back. I do that on my motorcycle. I do that at the spa. I get those times where I truly, truly, truly step back. Again, leadership starts with you. It’s a mindset that you have to really, really cultivate, and you’ve got to show up every day.

Betty : [00:12:47] Most importantly, lead responsibly with your title, so that those results will influence, and you’ll have engagement that will fulfill your role as that leader. The success of who you are leading is counting on you to do that. I have about 150 people that count on me as a shareholder, and a leader in my company.

Betty : [00:13:08] Today, leadership, influence, and the title – they all come together. One of the people that I love, that I’ve heard talk about, and I’ve read her book on leadership is Janet Meeks. She is so passionate about how we can lead. She wrote a book called, “Gracious Leadership.” You should check it out. It’s really good. She lives it. She wants to change the world for the good. She’s a leader, because she influences those around her, and I’m going to interview her next, so stay tuned.

Betty : [00:13:39] Today, we’ve been talking about leadership with a title. Of course, the next podcast coming will be Leadership Without a Title. Either way you can lead, and it’s my privilege today to have someone who truly is an amazing leader.

Betty : [00:13:56] Janet Smith Meeks has devoted nearly four decades of her professional life to healthcare, and financial-services industries. She is an amazing executive, and a director, and she wrote a really, really great book, “Gracious Leadership: Lead Like You’ve Never Led Before.” I’ve read this book, and it really is just impactful, with such simple things. It’s amazing what the power of those simple things can create in leadership.

Betty: [00:14:24] I’m just so thrilled to have you here today, Janet. We’re going to just talk a little bit about leadership from your perspective. As you know the podcast, I talk about Ronald Reagan being one of my favorite leaders in my lifetime. I would like you to share your thoughts about Reagan, and any particular leadership attributes he possessed that you believe are more important for today’s leaders.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:14:50] Thank you so much, Betty, for the opportunity to be with you today. It’s so ironic that Ronald Reagan is also one of my favorite leaders, over the course of time. I think Reagan was so impactful, and so memorable because he was known to be the Great Communicator. I believe that the people of America, especially at that time, and now, also, are clamoring for a glimpse of what optimistic leadership looks like.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:15:21] Reagan frankly said that he was not necessarily a great communicator, but he had the opportunity to communicate great things. In fact, in his campaign for presidency in 1980, there were five simple words that he called his platform – family, work, neighborhoods, freedom, and peace. He was just such an optimistic person that people wanted to follow him. They wanted to hear what he had to say.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:15:54] I’ll share one funny story about Reagan. In 1981, when he was shot, he tried to walk into the hospital, and his feet buckled, as he was unable to take himself into the facility. He was aided by being put on a gurney, and then was taken into surgery. Quoting Churchill, Reagan said that, “There’s nothing so exhilarated as to be shot at without effect.”

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:16:21] Then, to his wife, he said, “Honey, I’m so sorry. I forgot to duck.” To the doctors, he said, “I just hope you’re Republicans,” to which one of the doctors replied, “Today, Mr. President, we’re all Republicans,” which I think spoke to the unity that this man with his optimism, and his wonderful ability to use humor made him someone that we all wanted to follow.

Betty: [00:16:46] Absolutely. Those are reasons, too, I really respected him, and looked up to him. Even when you talk in your book – it’s titled “Gracious Leadership” – that does not mean you’re nice all the time, and roll over. Reagan could be as tough as he could be as loving, and led. It all mixes together, but he had those skills, for sure.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:17:08] You’re right, Betty, and I think sometimes people will believe that you have to be a tough leader, or you’re a kind, soft leader, but just as you said, you can be both. You can be tough, and kind; you can be compassionate, and require accountability, and in so doing, you show respect.

Betty: [00:17:24] Right. Sometimes, we learn a lot about leadership outside of our workplace. We only think leadership is in the workplace. Would you share an individual who impacted your leadership convictions, and some lessons that you learned from that person?

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:17:42] Two people come to my mind. One would be my high school basketball coach. Listen, if this coach said, “Jump off the bridge,” I would have said, “Yes, sir, what side?” He encouraged us, and expected us to be our very best. As well as we may have played, he always wanted more. It’s probably not a surprise that, our senior year, we went 24-0 before we ever lost a game.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:18:07] What I learned from him is that you can encourage people to give their best without screaming at them. He taught us the importance of having a game plan, so that we all were united to work on behalf of the greater good. He all taught us the importance of continuous self-improvement, as we would shoot that one hundredth free shot of the day, perhaps, or run those terribly tiring drills, where we’d have to run the lines of the basketball court.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:18:37] The other person who comes to my mind is my father. I talk about this quite a bit in “Gracious Leadership,” but my dad was a unique individual; an attorney who, in the 1960s, in the heart of Mississippi, found it to be his calling to advocate for equal rights for all people. He actually was the attorney who told the local school board that the schools had to be integrated, when the federal mandate was issued.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:19:09] My dad actually was one of a couple of people who escorted the first black child, African-American, Debra Lewis safely to her desk at Carthage Elementary School. He found himself to have become an enemy target of the KKK. They threatened his life. They threatened the lives of my brother, my mother, and myself, and he had to meet regularly with the FBI.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:19:32] Here’s the most important lesson he taught my brother, and me, two lessons. First of all, every person, regardless of how they are different from us, every person is supposed to be respected. Secondly, he taught us that you always, as a leader, do what is right, even and especially when it’s not popular, and regardless of the cost. I will forever be grateful for those important lessons of leadership that I learned both from my dad, and from my coach.

Betty: [00:20:03] Thank you so much for sharing such a personal story about your father. That was just- that was just great. Why don’t you share with us a little about the most impactful leader from within the workplace, and the lessons that you learned from that individual?

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:20:22] Betty, my favorite professional mentor ever is a gentleman whose name is Aubrey Patterson. He retired several years ago, as the chairman of the board, and the chief executive officer of BancorpSouth, a financial conglomerate that transcends eight states in the southeastern part of our nation.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:20:39] I was a management trainee; green management trainee, right after having finished my MBA program at Ole Miss, and had the good fortune of being assigned to work for Mr. Patterson. From the very beginning, he put me in situations where clearly I had never been before.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:20:58] He taught me how to become comfortable being uncomfortable. He gave me stretch assignments. He gave me a little guidance, and then he gave me free rein to go figure it out. Then, I would bring back the work product to him; he could give me some hints about how to improve it, always in a kind spirit. Then, he would assign me the next big stretch assignment.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:21:22] It was really a continuous learning journey, and it’s one that really helped to mold, and shape my leadership philosophies, because I made it my practice to identify high-potential employees, and to give them stretch assignments, so they could start building more and more confidence, as they broadened their skill sets.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:21:42] The other thing about Mr. Patterson … This man is absolutely brilliant; so highly well-regarded. He’s won so many incredible awards, including having served as the chairman of the American Bankers Association, several years ago.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:21:57] He was so compassionate. He was the first one from our bank to show up at the hospital, when I was experiencing a significant health concern related to my first baby. After I left the bank, and went to work for the medical center, Mr. Patterson was the first one always to congratulate me on the birth of my second, and third babies. To have a brilliant business man, who is so, savvy, so effective, so results-oriented, but who also has a kind heart, and he’s not afraid to share that heart by showing his employees how much he cares about them, that stuck with me.

Betty: [00:22:46] Hopefully, Janet, we all have a Mr. Patterson in our career at some point, and take it a step further. We, then, will make sure that we are that Mr. Patterson to someone; make sure that it goes on, because that’s the leadership that people need, in leadership, that they need to see demonstrated in front of them.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:23:04] You know, Betty, one other comment I have to tell you. When I was writing “Gracious Leadership,” and clearly Mr. Patterson is one of the four professional mentors whom I highlight within the book, it gave me such great joy to reach out to him, and to tell him what his leadership had meant to me, and that I wanted to showcase that leadership within this book that aspiring leaders would be reading, hopefully, for generations to come; to help him see the incredible ripple effect that his leadership has had, and will have for generations to follow.

Betty: [00:23:41] Wonderful. Now, we’ve talked about the good side, so we probably need to talk about the bad, or the dark side, as I call it. There are those leaders out there that probably shouldn’t be leaders, or they’re influencers, and probably are influencing in a negative way.

Betty: [00:23:57] Can you tell us a little bit about that person, or that leader in your life; somebody that just really had an impact, negatively, but probably you used it for the better of what you’re not going to be, right? If you can talk about that?

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:24:13] You’re right, Betty. We certainly learn how to lead from those positive mentors, and we learn how not to lead from those who don’t quite reach the bar. Betty, two people come to my mind. Interestingly, both of them possess the same leadership liability. Each of them was a bully.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:24:33] I had been recruited to a particular organization, and, of course, during the interview process, everything’s beautiful, all is cool. This is a little piece of heaven. Not so much, once I arrived on the job, and realized that, although this was not an individual to whom I reported directly, I had a close working relationship with the individual.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:24:58] That person reigned with fear, and terror. It was so pervasive that employees, and leaders throughout the organization literally would fly under the radar for fear that they might get their heads “lopped off.” That was not a culture where I felt at home. To be candid with you, I jokingly tell people I stayed there two years, three months, four days, two hours, and 22 minutes. In other words, it was not a place where I felt that I was going to be able to be all that I was created to be, so I made a conscious decision to leave, when another opportunity presented.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:25:42] Now, the other example was an individual to whom I reported. This person came into the organization, and was a bully from day one. It was always a little bit scary when I would look at the phone in my office, and see the individual’s cellphone number pop up. I never knew if it was going to be a pleasant conversation, or one that was not so much.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:26:08] I began to study this individual, and to try to determine what was it that caused the person to have an eruption. There was one time that there was a very unpleasant conversation, and I thought to myself, “I don’t have to put up with this. I’ll leave.” Then, frankly, I did some more reflection and decided I love what I do. I love the people with whom I work. I feel I’m called to serve in this organization. I’ve got to figure out how to work with this person.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:26:43] I did study the individual’s habits, and what I’ve figured out is that if anyone ever was tentative in how they replied to this individual’s questions during presentations, that’s when the individual was like a shark going in for the strike.  The lesson I took away from that is that, although I always prided myself on being very well-prepared, I needed to double down, and be more prepared than I had ever been.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:27:12] Furthermore, I needed to try to anticipate the questions the person might ask me, and then answer those questions before the individual had a chance to pose them. Then, when the individual would push back on me, I was armed with facts, and could respectfully push back, which gave the individual boundaries. Thankfully over the course of time, this person changed, at least in the relationship with me, changed from being a bully to actually being an advocate, and a cheerleader for the work that I was doing.

Betty: [00:27:44] Interesting two choices. You chose to leave, because sometimes, that’s what you do. It’s not worth it. Then, secondly, you chose to stay because it mattered. That’s great. We’re going to end today with just one quick, quick thing. “Gracious Leadership” is your book; wonderful book, I’ve read it. Why the word  ‘gracious?’

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:28:03] When I had retired from my full-time role as president of St. Anne’s Hospital in the summer of 2015, I became very contemplative about different leadership lessons I had learned throughout my life – either from my parents, from my mentors, or from my own professional journey. From time to time, I would jot down my thoughts about each of those particular leadership attributes.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:28:25] Then, in early 2016, I was asked by [00:28:29] Weld [00:28:30] and by the Ross Leadership Institute if I would make a presentation on a leadership topic of my choice. I pulled out my file; I spread out that list of leadership attributes, which, by that time, had grown to around a dozen. Honestly, as I looked at the words on those pieces of paper, the word ‘gracious’ came to my mind.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:28:51] I know that sometimes people may think “Gracious Leadership” sounds like it’s soft stuff. There’s a whole chapter in the book dedicated to refute that proposition. You can be kind, and respectful, and take your team to peak performance.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:29:08] Let me give you an example. One of the kindest things a leader may ever do is to tell an employee who is not a good fit in the organization that it’s better for them to leave, and to share that information with them in a kind way, so that they will not have ill feelings towards you, but they will understand that, frankly, you’re watching out for the best interests of the organization, and for them.

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:29:30] Gracious was a word that I thought was appropriate, also, given the state of affairs throughout our country in 2016-17-18, and even now. We know that 30 percent of leaders are toxic, and that a recent Gallup survey has shown that,  around the world, we lose $7 trillion per year in lost productivity attributed to employee disengagement. Most of the time, that comes from having had a bad boss.

Betty: [00:30:04] Well, I cannot thank you enough for taking time today to be here. I would challenge anyone who is listening today buy the book, “Gracious Leadership.” Also, you can find Janet; she has a website. Can you give us your information on that?

Janet Smith Meeks: [00:30:18] It’s www.graciousleadershipbook.com, and by all means, visit the website, and scroll down to the bottom of any page, and join in the free leadership blog. The Gracious Leadership blog that I send out about once a month.

Betty: [00:30:37] It’s excellent. Again, thank you. Leader with the title, leader without a title – either way you can lead.